ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- To those that don't study the early medieval period, the names Hengist and Horsa are, at most, Arthurian characters. But their role, as the first named Germanic inhabitants of the British Isles (the first named 'Anglo-Saxons'), has given them a great deal of importance in imaginations for millennia. Their names lie on the horizon of our history - no matter how hard we look, we can't tell if we can see them or not. Are they a phantom that we've imagined? Or are they a real feature of our history?
This video explores Hengist and Horsa - looking at all of our evidence, and considering various possibilities for their existence. The answer to the question is, frankly, a lot more complicated than I expected when I started researching. But I hope that it makes for an entertaining video.
Bonus video: • The Staffordshire Hoar...
Patreon: / guthlac
Paypal: paypal.me/guthlac
Kofi: ko-fi.com/guthlac
Twitter: / guthlacyt
Instagram: / guthlacyt
Website: www.guthlac.co.uk
Bibliography:
Stenton, Frank, Anglo-Saxon England III edn, (Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1971).
Fleming, Robin, Britain After Rome, (London, Penguin Books, 2010).
Bede’s Ecclesiastical History of the English People (www.thelatinlib...)
Beowulf (heorot.dk/beow...)
West, Donald, The Divine Twins: an Indo-european Myth in Germanic Tradition, (Berkeley and Los Angeles, University of California Press, 1968).
Tolkien, John, Finn and Hengest, ed. By Alan Bliss (New York, Houghton Mifflin Company, 1983). (I would seriously recommend this read; it says much more than I ever could, and it’s the reason why this is its own video.)
John Adams’ letter:
www.google.co....
The Public: God historians are so pointless, history is so pointless. Post-modernists are right you can never know anything.
Historian Josh: That's not true! Tell them what you know Early Medievalist Guthlac!
Early Medievalist Guthlac: Ehhhh .. I am not sure I should ...
Historian Josh: No tell them what you know!
Early Medievalist Guthlac: Well we know "there were maybe battles somewhere at some time between some people".
Historian Josh: (face palm)
Hengist and Horsa's story is similar to Cunedda's as he came to north wales from the north of Britain to help defeat the Irish there and later settled in North Wales with his sons.
That's a fascinating parallel! Not one of which I was aware. Really makes you query how much folkloric crossover there is between the Germanic and the British
Just started watching, they almost certainly were considered Gods in the pre-Christian period. They appear to be the Germanic reflex of the Divine Horse Twins that most Indo-European religions have.
Not really the Divine Twins are portrayed as demigods not true gods
So? Romulus and remus aren't even demi gods @@dirckthedork-knight1201
I'm with the line that Hengest was historical, and his importance lies in that he not only aided the britons, but gave lands to some of the men that followed him. Whatever arose after him in poetry was combined with legends, and his brothers Horsa was possibly an addition by Christians to create a Jacob and Esau archetype. Funny enough that Horsa dies and Hengest becomes king, just as Remus has to die for Romulus to become king.
Makes sense
I always wondered about your point there, the connection between Hengest and Horsa with Romulus and Remus, seems that theres something there right?
@@UltramontanoPapista
You know, I've changed so much of mind since I made this comment.
My modern take is that Hengest and Horsa plus Vortigern are a combination of two legendary traditions.
You see, Hengest and Horsa are, without question, deities. Vortigern here takes the place of the King of the Gods who must make a covenant with the newcomers, thus he marries Rowena (a symbol of fertility), daughter of Hengest, and then the two brothers are now part of the divine family.
This echoes the Wars of the Romans against the Sabines, when the Romans took Sabine women (symbols of fertility) while lead by Romulus (Vortigern's parallel).
Hengist should be regarded as legendary. There is an independent cycle of hero legends centering on him, since Beowulf, the Finnesburg Fragment, and the Prose Edda all mention him. He should be seen as a heroic ancestor figure for powerful families, the same role Ragnar Lodbrokk plays for the Great Heathen Army of Offa of Angle plays for Mercia. He could be based on a real person or even a combination of real people. You cannot prove he existed the way he did in his heroic legends, but the family descended from him certainly does exist. On the other hand, Horsa seems to just be a shadow-figure for Hengist. He exists only to round out his brother's mythology. Germanic mythology has its own twin motif called the Haddingjar, two brothers, both named Hadding. They were originally gods (maybe Vanir), but by the Eddic period, they degenerated into mortal heroes. They are imagined as ancestors of the Vandals and sporadically turn up as elite enemies for heroes in Norse sagas (as these myths and legends were written by Germanic peoples hostile to the Vandals). Whether twins in Germanic myths got along was a case by case basis. Ynglinga Saga records no less than four episodes of twin brothers killing each other, but among the Danish Skjoldungs (Scyldings), Hrothgar and his brother Helgi got along very well, with Hrothgar ruling Denmark while Helgi roamed about raiding.
I am Dutch and started looking into my family name (Dering) and found out it is an old saxon/English name that is said to be a direct descendant of Hengist and Horsa and thus Wodan and Friga from Kent. Sounds great 😁 I take it with a grain of salt but it is like a fairytale to find a rich history like that behind a uncommon ‘Dutch’ name
Wtf...y isn't this channel more popular...
I've recently been reading Tolkien's commentary on Beowulf, and he posits a very believable theory that the character of Beowulf is effectively a mythological or folktale figure who was conflated with the legendary history of a real Geatish king. Although Tolkien himself believed Hengest to be real, interestingly his theory for Beowulf could accurately explain what's going on with Hengest; a real Anglo-Saxon warrior who led the conquest of Kent and founded the Kentish royal dynasty later being conflated with the divine horse figure 'Hengest' of Germanic mythology.
People usually don't confound mythological and historical figures. Rather, legends develop into two ways: a real person is deified/lionized to the point that they have supernatural elements attached to them, or a divine being claimed as ancestor by some notable family is later euhemerized into a regular human ruler. The second thing seems to have happened to Hengist and Horsa, two demigod figures claimed as ancestors by the rules of Kent. Or a possible third option: a mythological ancestor is constructed out of whole cloth because the family no longer remembers its original point of origin. The closest thing to what you're describing is the heroic legend surrounding Offa of Mercia and his ancestor Offa of Angle. The heroic feats of the two kings are confused with each other in medieval legends to the point that their lives are almost interchangeable. Offa of Angle is known for having fought a duel against two champions, so storytellers graft this legend to Offa of Mercia. Offa of Mercia is known for having an aggressive wife named Cynethryth, so this legend is then grafted to Offa of Angle in the form of his wife Modthryth.
I'm pleased to have found your channel. Very well explained and narrated. And greatly appreciated that you explicitly draw different academic works into an discussion of the topic.
thanks for explaining this more, i had wondered that you so readily dismissed the 2 in the video about Bede and Gildas
Very interesting note on the Dioskouric myths. In Hawaiʻi, we have something similar. Not necessarily twins (by my recollection), Nanaulu and Ulu were sons of the chief Kiʻi (Tiki) who voyaged from Kahiki (Tahiti, possibly Papeete) to the Hawaiian islands and began the first chiefly dynasties of each of the islands.
Interasting stuff i LOVE the deep analysis
I think you overate the Divine Twins connection a little too much here yes the brothers have horse themed names but they don't really have any other horse motif apart from that which is not the case in the other Divine Twins and they don't really seem to fit the "helping people" bit either
Amazing video!
Ebissa is in one account, Eosa in another. I can't remember if Tolkien says this but there's an unelaborated figure in the fragment called Eaha who's grouped with Hengest and Sigeferth of the Secgan. Eosa sounds like Horsa too, funnily enough.
It's reasonable that these would be originally the same name. I'm fairly convinced by Tolkien's belief that 'Hengest and Horsa' are titles or mythological associations applied to two real figures.
Kent had already existed for centuries. The last Welsh king of Kent was Gwrangon. Hengest was the first English king of Kent.
There is a written history of Britain in Breton France. These were the former Roman Army in particular the Cavalry Based around Danum where the Equites were trained, their Horses bred, and maintained. They were taken from Britain by the Comes Britanniarum Magnus Maximus initially to protect the Northern borders of Rome, and later in his Bid to be co-emperor of Rome, leaving only the newly ascribed Duxe Britainium (Duke of Britain's Army) with a scratch force of professional and older settled cavalry as a quick reaction force, based in patrolling along the Pennine Hill forts and Hadrian's where the Salmation Dragon banners of Rome's cavalry still flew. The word dragoon as horse cavalry probably comes from Roman Dragon banners.
These Pennine Dragoons may be the shortened source of the name Pendragon. Simply a description of their job as many names are. Later oral histories probably ascribed the role of King of the Britain's to the various Duxe Britainium. Those former Roman Cavalry officers in Bretton maintained control of lands in Armorica/Britain and maintained a semblance of Roman control and historical records with their growing Christian clerical cast, even after Constantine the III took the remainder of Roman influence to Gaul in his own bid to be Emperor of Rome.
Those Bretton histories put Hengist as dying after the Battle at Maesbeli at then Caer-Conan (Conan means King in Celtic) now know as Conisburgh, there is still a Conan road there. And St Peters Church is said to be one of the Oldest churches in Britain with a Roman font at its door. The Conan or King they refer to was Magnus Maximus who had his lands there; Close to Danum where his Cavalry were based.
Hengist and his horse equipped guards retreated down hill, retreating up hill on horseback never works, to the south east when the battle was lost crossing the Dragon ford at Conisbrough, over the River Don into the ruins of the former Roman Castle at Conisbrough where in a short battle the next day he was be-headed by one of the Bretons who came to fight Hengist who had taken their lands in Britian. Hengist's Mound is the odd mound left of the Castle's Gate where Hengist was buried, his soldiers retreated uphill then east along the road to Sprotborough and are buried in a long mound to the north side of the modern road.
Honestly with all of these hurdles in the way and the fog of time, the fact we know anything at all is amazing.
I do not know if this is accurate, but I have always wondered about a possible mythical connection between Romulus and Remus and Hengest and Horsa. Just a thought.
1:19 since your British not American I'll give you context of which you may hold immense ignorance of.
No offense.
In America from 1776 to 1918 most Americans regarded themselves as Anglo-Saxons, out of Scottish Lowlands origins, English origins, Dutch origins or parts of lower Saxony Germany, most Americans viewed themselves as a continuation of a Anglo-Saxon culture liberated from a divergent Anglo-French "Norman" culture of the British royal family. Hundreds of books and writings from the beginning of America up to ww2 talks about American culture as a Anglo-Saxon culture with Anglo-Saxon symbolism. Many Anglo-Saxon history books were written in America and so was Anglo-Saxon art.
Prior to the 50s Americans in culture and ethnicity was mostly English in self consideration
Even if it diverged from British culture,
Albeit Dixie southern culture saw itself as Anglo-Celtic.
Rather if the British proper saw Americans as a Anglo-Saxon race and culture or not wasn't important to Americans at the time. But Anglo-Saxon themed poetry, literature, and racialism was common. By the thousands of books and papers, much of which I read. Sometimes it's inclusive Anglo-Celtic, other times just Anglo-Saxon.
It's amazing how prior to the 50s, Americans mostly viewed themselves as Anglo-Saxons, some Politicians also talked about America having a culture that of Anglo characteristics, rather in politics, architecture, art, poetry, technology, literature, philosophy, customs, traditions or anything else Britain and America produced.
Hengist was a common significance. That immigration policies and racial treatment, in tolerance or bigotry was done historically in America by how much Anglo they perceived you too be.
Statues and arts around country or government buildings Sometimes shows a Anglo-Saxon figure.
America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand by many people in history was regarded as Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Celtic by many who study Language, history, culture, politics or traditions, or is into race. Until the EXTREMELY MASSES AND LARGE multicultural immigration that flooded diversity into these Anglosphere nations.
Want my opinion?
I think America and Canada is to Britain what England is to Scandinavia and Germany.
tl;dr muh heritage
It would be interesting to look into any local information / legends as to why the wooden Horse decorations on N German houses were called Hengst and Hors.
This makes me wonder about Ragnar and his sons.
Sometimes a legend starts with something & someone real, and then it gets exagerated beyond recognition. For example, I think that there was a real Arthur. However, the wild, tall fairy tales told about him make him larger than life.
Was Cerdic one of Horsa and Hengist's "Generals"?
But why be cynical by default??
Isn’t it actually more likely that for a history to survive without writing that it is true?
Nothing about this narrative is at all unlikely..
If you can't trust Nennius or the Anglo Saxon chronicles and bede who lived a few centuries after the events but knew the traditions of the migration period then you have to be even more cautious about fanciful modern ideas revolving around speculations about Dioscuri myths and supposed Indo European religion of which we know nothing ,the concept of which would mean nothing to the Germanic peoples in the 6/7th century. The modern reconstruction is in my opinion much more arbitrary and untrustworthy than memories written down just a few centuries after the events that were presevered in epic poetry of the time. So on balance I would take those sources as more legitimate than the speculations of possibly and probably equally made up contemporary sources separated by many centuries and lacking any traditions at all. In other words I'll go with Bede and the anglo Saxon chronicles plus Nennius and Gildas, the Gallic chronicle and some almost contemporary accounts from the continent as to the sequence of events in Britain during the settlement rather than the more imaginative fanciful recreation's in the minds of fame seeking modern professors based on their own ideas fantasies of comparative religions in a past we have no access to other than through archeology and a few fragments of written literature. These professionals have constructed personal fantasies in their own heads even more fanciful than the surviving traditions are and based on less evidence other than wishful thinking...
“Norse mythology has no Dioskouric myths”. I would advise looking into Odin’s brothers.
there's no evidence and no interpretation that Vili and Vé are or were Dioskouric - a pair of siblings isn't necessarily a Dioskouric pairing
There two characters known as Álríkr and Éirikr who were skilled horsemen that killed each other, in Scandinavia mythology. They are, possibly, the remnants of the Horse Twins.
Commenting for engagement
Did Octa exist?
Hengest was real, - Horsa was he's horse, whom he referred to in public as he's brother, possibly, - oral histories told amongst other Germanic twin brother/divine Indo-European horse twin stories could've conflated them - mho
Ah yes..so now I know someone did something with someone that liked horses who went to England at some point. Got it.
10:01 Pollux is the later latin name in greek its Polydeukes
I see a crossover with Jacob and Esau from the bible
tolkien >>>