instructordave111 Thank you very much for the video. I recently tore down a DB, not DB2, which appears to be the same internally other than the distributor portion. I read the service manual's description of operation thoroughly, but your video made it all come together. I appreciate you taking the time to make this.
Thank you very much for posting this video. I've asked several repair shops how a pump works; even going as far as offering cash and none explained this as well as you just did. Thank you thank you thank you. I will be more confident on my next repair.
What an excellent explanation. Thank you so much. I've been sitting here with a cup of coffee just scribbling notes and understanding everything. I love it when I find someone who clicks with how I learn. This video is very appreciated and I'll be referring classmates to this for help. Still good in 2020!
If you read all the comments below you will see one by Ernie Johnson of Johnson cutaways. He is the one who made these sorts of excellent training tools.
You may have an issue with the control on the metering valve or a governor linkage issue. the CAV pumps work a bit differently than the Roosa Master design in this video. I don't have a CAV video to reference on this.
If I had been more patient and watched the entire video, I would have had my question answered! Whenever I have a pump rebuilt and they replaced the delivery valve, is the new valve lapped or mated in some other fashion to the seat in the rotor shaft?
The dv is softer metal than the bore. So it wears but the bore does not. The dv maintains psi in the injection line, approx 500 psi less than injection psi. It helps the engine run smoother. Without it. The injection line to the injector would drop to no psi after each cycle, requiring more fuel to replenish the psi, and would cause a delay. All modern injection pumps utilize them.
Due to the design of the pump, I would not use air to try to free them up as there may be water or dirt in the air you are using. You may be able to pressurize the fuel pressure test port but you would have to be careful to not over do it and damage some of the internal components. You should be able to apply the same pressure as the pump would see at high rpm. You would need to check your specs for your pump to determine that. Due to the very minimal tolerances inside the pump I would not hold out much hope for this to work. Good luck !
Sorry I missed this question. The pressure test port is the black hex head plug near the top right side of the pump body in the beginning of the video. Hopefully you found the answer .
Thank you so much for your help and I wish if there is more videos about diesel pump thank you thank you thank you is there is any video for the burkins 3 cylinder
Hi Rick, There is a "weep hole"in the area between the two Fuel cup seals that is there to let you know the seals are failing. Do not JB weld over this hole or you will end up with the fuel getting into the oil pan and that will cause a bunch more engine issues. The cup seals can be changed by you if you are a little bit mechanically inclined. Set the engine at #1 cylinder on compression using the Cummins pin , make a mark from the pump housing to the front cover, remove the fuel lines from the pump, remove the pump from the engine ( you may need a puller to loosen the gear from the tapered shaft. Don't lose the key into the engine when you do that part. Remove the pump drive shaft and change the cup seals. Some manufacturers sell a seal installer tool when you get the new seals. When you reinstall the pump driveshaft, make sure the seals don't flip back using the tool and absolutely be sure the driveshaft timing marks are lined up inside the pump. When everything is apart, be sure that the engine or the pump do not move or resetting the timing could be an issue. Good Luck with your project.
That was awesome! I have been trying to figure out why my pump is not distributing fuel and now I think it's because the rotor isn't moving. Any idea what would cause that?
Possibly a broken drive shaft, but that is generally due to a siezed pump. You can take the timing/inspection window off of the side to see if the pump is turning when the engine cranks. keep us posted on what you find.
There is a drilled passage that allows transfer pressure fuel to act upon the advance piston. As the speed increases the transfer pressure also increases and the advance piston is moved against the spring even further to advance the BOI.
Could be many things. start with the easy stuff, misaligned cables or linkage, kinked return lines etc. Internally it could be dirty fuel, flyweight not reacting or stuck, inlet valve issues, regulating valve issues, sticking check ball. Rebuilt doesn't mean operating correctly. My apologies to your rebuilder, we all miss things once in a while
Hi! It's an interesting video and very practical. I have a problem with a gen set when I start the engine, it start out of frequency range and decrease slowly the rpm until reach the nominal frecuency. This occurs in about 1:30 minutes. Why could happen that? Thanks!
Based on limited information and assuming the genset is equipped with this type of fuel pump. I would guess that there may be something that is keeping the fly weights from bringing the rpms down to the speed setting for you generator. Spring settings may have been adjusted to a higher speed than is required. Hard to give a definitive answer from a distance.
Very helpful. So if I want to increase the overall amount of fuel that's available do I increase the size of the plungers and the metering valve or will increasing the size of the plungers do the trick? Thanks to anyone who can answer this question.
To increase fuel delivery on this pump, you can adjust the roller spring to allow the plungers to deliver the max fuel that they are designed for, but you can not change to bigger plungers etc. These pumps are only good for up to approximately 250 hp and then you are better off to go to an inline style pump for more fuel delivery capabilities. I'm sure there are instances where someone has a pump like this at more than 250 hp but those would be limited instances. IMHO
Thanks for the info. About 250 HP is about what I'm looking for out of this particular build. I know there are a couple of companies out there that are getting close to 200cc out of the pumps that are available for the 7.3 IDI. I'm not looking to get more than maybe 110cc out of a pump and since I have a couple that are currently not working I thought I would try to do it myself rather than pay several hundred to someone else. Worse case scenario it doesn't work and I have to order a pump but I learn something about these pumps in the process.
Parent of Twins if you are willing to experiment and learn something that is great. Just make sure you are working in as clean a place as possible. These wont tolerate any dirt getting into them. Measure the spring height and then tighten the screw to allow the rollers to deliver more fuel. Good luck.
Altering the profile of the metering valve can alter the torque curve. As for increasing flow or volume, you can have the plungers ground shorter and a custom cam ring with a faster rise and longer stroke to match the shorter plungers. There are many machine shops out there who could make the cam and regrind your plungers for a reasonable price. Another option is to just recut the profile of the cam without altering the plunger. A larger base circle would increase stroke length of the plungers . These are nice purpose built pumps with room for some fun. If someone was ambitious enough, a split shot cam profile could be produced.
I'm afraid your pump will need to be removed and rebuilt if the plungers are stuck. You may try filling the pump with fuel conditioner, but I doubt that you will have any success just trying that. If they got some water in them they will likely be rusted in place.
The injection pressure from one cycle to the next will remain constant if the engine speed remains constant. Injection pressure is the result of the fuel going through the injector. If the amount of injected fuel is increased the injection pressure goes up because the injector nozzle doesn't change it's hole sizes but the plungers will still be forcing the quantity of fuel out to the cylinder.What this means is that at any given speed you will have a constant injection pressure for that speed. At low idle speeds you need very little fuel and have a relatively long time to inject it. Where at high speeds you need more fuel to be injected and have much less time to complete the injection so the injection pressure must go up considerably to accomplish that. This pump will go from around 5,000psi injection pressure at idle to upwards of 23,000 psi at high speeds under load. For each situation the injector nozzle does not change so more fuel in less time makes higher injection pressure.
Both systems work so I am not sure I would place one as better than the other. In a distributor pump you are limited by the design so they are not found on anything with very high horsepower due to the fuel delivery limitations.A sharp, fully atomized beginning of injection is more important than the end of injection in my opinion.
I originally came to your channel because I'm working on designing a pump for a single cyliinder engine. it's going to be like a PF pump but i want to have a control sleeve instead of a helix and rack. it won't have a feed pump so I can't use this type of advance. do you know of a centrifugal advance system that I could use?
jeff payne how does it run? Do a spill back test into a large bucket to see if you are getting enough return fuel. These pumps naturally aerate the return fuel to a certain extent. Maybe internal transfer pump issue, loose or pressure regulating valve not set correctly. Seals would leak from weep hole or dilute the engine oil. Keep me posted on what you find.
instructordave111 She runs like a top when i get her primed. New injectors, pump is about a year or so old. Very few miles since install at a reputable shop. Started and drove fine for about 6 weeks after injectors installed. Then one morning, no start. Fuel from return line had bled back to tank. Isolated the air intrusion with clear lines and can watch fuel bubbles leave pump. If i turn truck off, and immediagly restart, no problem. If she sits more then 10 seconds she loses prime and must be reblead. After hours of research ,i am believing the seals in pump are shot, thus creating an internal vacuum when shut off and filling return with air. Thank you for your time both in posting a very informative video, and responding so promptly.
jeff payne check for cracked or leaking fittings or pump housing gaskets that may be leaking. Isolate the fuel system to a fuel can to see if there are any improvements.
instructordave111 Ill check the outlet , check valve and brass fuel fitting, as thw inlet line is new, clear line with compression fitting. The inlet line is clear and bubble free at all times. I can see fuel, no bubbles into pump after days of sitting. The clear return line is the fuel bubble mix, but when i shut truck off, it all drains rapidly from last injector to fuel can on ground. If i hopd line down in a loop, ypu can see a bubble now and again coming out of return line. Thats what lead me to believe the pump is sucking air and draining prime.
Having an issue with a Roosa Master on an '81 Waukesha mated to a MIller welder...that won't start after installing a new solenoid since the old one would no longer engage. It was working when last used though required firm tapping to shut off since the old solenoid wouldn't un-stick. Am I to understand correctly that the functions of the upper housing on this one still work the same? IE the rod below the solenoid slides FWD//BWD? When attempted to check how the solenoid fit in...since impossible to do so with the new one I used the old...I could see where the foot of the lever would ride but couldn't get that flat rod (6:12 for reference" to slide.
The solenoid is powering up with a definite CLICK. Am looking at a couple other videos and posting questions as well but I THINK i see now what might be going on. Just noticed that it looks like the foot hooks around another tab on the slide below as it seems to appear in this cut-away?
You definitely have to have all the linkages connected properly for this system to deliver the fuel. Check it all carefully, I know it's a tight spot to work in.
Seems on mine the solenoid foot wont go around the tab but instead sits behind it. Powered on the slide moves back on its own into the RUN position. Powered off the foot seems to press the tab and thus the slide to OFF. But I think it is trying to jam since it won't quite shut off all the way. Took some working even by finger-force to get it to move then free up. Engine RPMs drop but won't go off without some tapping on pump. Carefully open up the foot a little more so it fits around the tab? Even the old solenoid didn't seem to want to go on? Or might I be missing something on install.
I am guessing that you have something misaligned in the linkages, possibly some worn out items or adjustment screws that are causing the binding linkage.
i'm an OOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD coblskill an Ag Eng grad found interesting as i changed out many of these old fuel jammers . and a new electronic on a JD 160 excavator . proper TIMING TOOLS all goes well .
I went to Morrisville too for diesel technology, and I didn't learn much there..it was a really crappy major. We started with over 90 kids and maybe 12 of us graduated, what does that tell you right there...this video was far more informative than any class or lecture. We did such a ridiculous amount of on paper, math formulas and diagram looking at, and hardly any hands on work. It might have been a 1:20 ratio of book to hands on work. Thanks for a great video.
Awesome video. I own a personal vehicle that is a 6.9. Its leaking from the bottom of the pump. somewhere. Not the fuel lines though, I made sure. it leaks very little. I can drive it around no problem. No air intrusion in the lines. engine still has its full power it seems. Any suggestions? I was thinking of putting JB weld. but something tells me that wont work... Sad day for the 6.9 engine. Thank you for the video. I plan on keeping this truck until i die. its fun learning about it.
At the very end of your video, you talk about what happens if the return line is blocked. This is the first time that I have run into this comment. I have been looking for the reason that one of my engines stops whenever I raise power for the last several years. Would this happen with a CAV pump on a Perkins T6.354? I have replaced everything from the fuel pick tube to the CAV pump, and cleaned the filter at the CAV inlet with no success.
Check the return line all the way from the fitting in the pump ( it should have a small regulator spring and valve in it ) to the tank. I have seen where a kinked pipe or hose can restrict flow enough to cause running issues. Make sure nothing is clamping the return line, like a bracket or bolt. Ziptie's that are too tight on a rubber return line are also something to watch for. Does the engine completely stop or just lose power? Don't discount the supply side or the stand pipe in the tank either. Good Luck
instructordave111 The engine completely stops when put under load. Runs fine at the dock at idle and full rpm under no load, will also run in gear with no load, when bringing the boat up on plane it will stop after a minute or so. I will check all the return fuel lines to see if there are any restrictions. ( I already replaced the stand pipe when I found a hairline crack about four inches from the bottom, thought it was sucking air when the fuel was low. Not the problem.) Will let you know what I find in the return lines.
Chuck Krutzler To eliminate the fuel system, you could run the engine in question with separate fuel lines and a jerry can to see if the problem is with the engine or the fuel system. Has the lift pump that supplies the injection pump been looked at?
Hello Dave, could you please tell me what the start of injection timing should be (in crank angle BTDC) for an automotive engine. What should should it be at fully retarded (low idle) and at max rpm (fully advanced). Thanks
Hi Sunil, BOI will depend on the engine manufacturers design requirements and even the size of the engine will have an effect. I am going to relate my answer to a mechanical fuel system as the electronic systems can vary the timing and the length of delivery time based on input from the ECM. In general at low RPM and idle you would want the timing to begin injection from around 5 deg BTDC to even a few deg. ATDC. The piston is moving relatively slowly and the fuel injected is minimal so not much heat is produced to ignite the fuel. As RPM rises, the pistons are squeezing the air much faster and the quantity of fuel is increased so the timing must be advanced to give the fuel time to evaporate, ignite and release the energy on the down stroke. This can be up to 30 deg. BTDC on SOME engines. The key is to not have the main pressure rise in the cylinder happen until the piston is a few deg. past TDC. This will allow the engine to produce the most and longest duration of pressure on the piston's power stroke. I am not an engineer so I could not give you exact numbers for your application and much of this is information becomes skewed once engine performance modifications have been done. I hope this helps.
instructordave111 thank you dave! this clears up a lot of basic questions for me. One more question; what are the two spacers in the stanadyne/lucas pump for? (the two thin rectangular plates with rectangular slots, under the roller shoes)
If I am understanding your question correctly, those are the opposed plungers and when they are forced together by the roller and shoe riding up on a cam lobe, they force the fuel out from between them and this is what becomes the injected fuel.
Hi @instructordave111 , I have this same model pump all torn apart on my work bench, trying to turn DOWN my fuel delivery because the last eBay owner had it set way to high. my motor will hydrolock with too much diesel when a heavy load gets put on it. I really need your best answer even if you do not know, I can't afford to bring it in because i blew all my $ on buying the pump. I have searched hundreds of videos, and left all relevant comments on my problem and nobody replies so i was hoping you would know. Thank you @instructordave111
Hi Levi, on this pump the amount of fuel delivered can be reduced by turning the plunger spring bolt out, away from the rotor. this limits the amount of fuel that can be loaded between the plungers. it will be hard to get it right without a test bench but if you are comfortable with taking it apart a few times you may get lucky. Just make sure all components are kept extremely clean while you are doing anything inside the pump.
Oh thank you very much instructordave111 , So when I screw the spring bolt out will it remain secure? all i have to do is turn it out and it shouldn't come loose when i start running the motor? I am not home right now, so i can't look at the pump. Just checking to be sure is this the spring bolt you are talking about? image.trucktrend.com/f/tech/general/10383424%20w799%20h499%20cr1%20ar0/0809dp_04_z+stanadyne_db2_injection_pump+pump_elements.jpg The leaf spring bolt? if not, I know I must be close you know.
Hi Levi, As with any internal fastener, I recommend using some type of thread locker like Blue Loctite. The leaf spring bolt is usually a slight interference fit but over time and possibly having many adjustments it may not have the tightness that will give you confidence. If it comes out during operation there are many things that will be destroyed inside the pump itself. You do not have to turn them in or out very far to make a change in the amount of fuel that is delivered. Having a chat with a fuel pump shop technician may help determine how much you want to restrict the delivery volume.
Okay thank you so much, I am going to locate a technician and ask him how much a quarter of a turn would affect the fuel. I will find that out all before hand. Finally, my last question, Do you believe I should be safe with adjusting the screw just one time and not have to worry about it coming apart while running? The screw was only adjusted one other time according to the seller, four or five years ago, and it has been ran a lot since.
Hi Levi,I would check that with the technician as well. If it has not been used as many times as the ones that I had in the classroom it may be fine, but I won't promise you anythig lie that from this distance away. Good Luck with getting it where you need it.
It’s called the “DB-2” because D. B. Cooper invented it and it was his second design. Soon after, he successfully hijacked Flight 305 and parachuted from the Boeing 727 with $200,000. In 1971, $200,000 was a lot of money. He disappeared and, sadly, never realized the success of his now famous Injector Pump breakthrough.
If anyone believes that one, I have some land in Florida that NEVER gets flooded, and I can get you a great price on the Brooklyn Bridge if you have cash.
I can imagine that it took some time to machine all the injection pump parts to expose the many passageways.. Excellent work. I've always wondered how these little rotary monsters did their work, and now have a better understanding of what controls my old 6.2 GM Detroit. I have recently acquired a late 90s 6.5L Turbo Detroit, with the PCM controlled Stanadyne DS4 electronic injection pump. If there are videos of this nature describing their inner workings I'd greatly appreciate viewing them!
I don't know of any cutaway type videos of the DS4 pump, but the ecm would be controlling the metering, governor and timing of the pump rather than being mechanical components. The guy that did this video may be a resource for you. th-cam.com/video/qWAZhEM-CKg/w-d-xo.html Good Luck.
In the automotive world they are considered Detroits starting with the 5.7 series, no it is not technically correct but it is an accepted term, it separates the miserable GM designed engines from the Isuzu designed GM engines. @@johngnipper8768
Great video. I have a 1981 Oldsmobile 98 Diesel and it has an injection pump that looks just like the one in this video. More Injection pump videos please. Thanks
Sorry Armand, I apologize for not seeing this. Yes a delivery valve that is sticking open or has debris on the seat would allow drops of fuel to enter the cylinder via the injector tip. It is there to provide a quick BOI and EOI and maintain a head pressure in the line, without it there would be some unatomized fuel drops getting by. Sorry once again for missing this question.
Brilliant video and explanation. Thanks for sharing. I'm trained on Bosch, Delphi and Denso, and these Stanadyne pumps have always been a bit of a mystery for me. This video helped me a lot. Cheers.
you greatness is impossible to understate. I would like more information on the shut off solenoid and the different parts needed to move to turn the metering valve and the injection pump to ON.
Thank you Yubal, The shutoff solenoid forces the metering valve to the NO fuel position when there is no electrical power applied to it. Once the ignition is turned on the solenoid is energized to create an electromagnet, which pulls in the stop lever and allows the metering valve to go to full fuel. The spring forces the linkages and levers inside to move the valve to full fuel. Once the engine is started the flyweights counteract the spring and cause the metering valve to adjust the fuel quantity to match the speed and load desired by the operator.
That will depend on the speed the engine is turning. The injection pressure can be as low as 2000 psi at idle or slow speed and up to 25,000 psi at maximum engine speed.
+themadmailler The plungers are forced outwards by the incoming "metered" amount of fuel and then as the rotor turns the rollers contact the internal cam lobes and force the plungers back inwards towards each other. As the fuel is pushed from the area between the plungers the distribution port comes into alignment with the rotor and the fuel, under pressure, is delivered to the injector. I hope that is what you are looking for.
For anyone.....rebuilt DB in 64 jd3020. No fuel coming out ports. How smooth them plungers have to move back and forth? And would you say that they are spred out most the time so the cam hits them and drive that pressure?
Kenneth, the plungers must be absolutely free to move in and out. And because of the speed of the pump, they are always out unless the cam ring lobes are forcing them inward. As soon as they have rotated past the lobe,transfer pump psi pushes them outward to be charged for the next injection.
Injected quantity is based on both the metering valve position (charge pressure, same as transfer pressure at wide open throttle) AND the charge duration which decreases with increased RPM. This is offset with the increased transfer pressure with RPM. Lower case pressure increases fueling as well as slightly advances timing since transfer pressure pushes the servo piston, rotating the cam ring. On the opposite side of this piston is case pressure.
Happy that it is able to help. I made the video for my diesel class. I figured they could watch it after class when they might be wondering what it was that they weren't paying attention to all day!! LOL
Great Video!! Thanks for the explanations you gave, but I do have a question. Can you use this pump without a sending/lifting pump? What are the consequences? Thank you!
Rodrigo Bulman, you may be able to run it that way if the fuel tank is above the pump so it gets some head pressure. Generally there needs to be 3 to 5 psi and enough fule flow for the pump to work properly. Low power and hard start would be the first consequences that you notice.
YEE-BOE People have done home rebuilds , but these pumps require some very precise timing and internal clearances that most home DIYers don't have access too. Good Luck
With the three injector lines undone at the IP should fuel squirt out, even if it is out of time. Also pulled the top off, shutoff moves back and forth like it should, put it back together. Now not getting fuel in the bowl, plenty of fuel flow to the IP pump.
Hi Tom, if there is fuel in the pump, the internal transfer pump is working properly and the metering valve is not in the fuel shut off position it should deliver fuel from the high pressure ports. Possibly the transfer pump is not working or the differential pressure valve is stuck in the open position. the electric lift pump is only there to deliver fuel to the internal transfer pump, which is there to deliver fuel at varying transfer pressures to the high pressure side of the pump. If this pump had any water in it and sat for a period of time some of the internal components may be frozen in place. It is actually not a complicated system, but many things have to work together at the same time to make the pump do what it was designed to do. .From your description it seems like the system from the tank to the inlet is working so whatever is the issue is in the pump Keep at it and let me know what you find.
Could you make a video on how to replace the cup seals? Or just tell me in reply to my comment. I am not able to remove the distributor. What is the easiest way to replace the seals? Thanks
EvenStar LoveAnanda Unless you have a gear drive that can be removed from the front of the engine, you will not be able to change the cup seals without removing the pump drive shaft. The pump drive shaft needs to slide out from the front of the Stanadyne DB2 pump and there is a special tool that you can probably borrow to install the shaft with the new cup seals. It is designed to keep the seals from flipping over on installation. Also make sure you have the pump shaft timing marks in the correct position or you will be out by 180 degrees of pump rotation. check this bulletin from Stanadyne @559
You could adjust the plunger spring to allow for slightly more fuel or put in the pumping assembly from a higher horsepower pump as it will deliver more fuel. The easiest way is to just install the higher horsepower pump and injectors. These are not as easy to hot rod as the inline pumps are.
Very happy after watching this very clearly narrated video of the very pump that I have recently had trouble with. Now this is clear to me why we had a problem. Thanks so much for such an effort.
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
With our description I suggest that you open the inspection window to see if the internal rotor is turning when cranking the engine. If not you may have a broken pump drive shaft.
That is a very good tutorial. I have a question that has bugged me for along time, if the metering valve controls how much fuel is sent to the plungers and we know the plungers only move apart in relation to the amount of fuel delivered through the metering valve then how in the world does turning the screw that controls maximum plunger travel affect the fuel delivery? Is it because there are times when the plunger travel limits the amount of fuel the metering valve delivers, if so that would only be in a max fuel state yes?
Yes you are correct the only time the metering valve is not the limiting factor is at maximum fuelling stage. The fuel, in that stage, between the plungers push them up against the spring ends. Adjusting the screw inwards increases max fuel delivery by compressing the spring and moving the spring ends out. the opposite occurs if the screw is turned the opposite way, which allows the spring ends to move in towards the plungers.
have case 580e backhoe the engine will start and run only if i actuate the hydraulics, load on engine makes it run? i need to fix this, trying to understand, worse than mg or vw lol
I don't think it has anything to do with the fuel pump. Sounds like you may have a hydraulic relief valve or unloader valve issue. Possibly the hydraulic pressure prevents the engine from turning the pump unless you manually give the oil a place to go. Good luck.
This is such an awesome video, thank you for sharing. I currently have an engine I swapped in and am trying to get going. I have my IP off my old engine on there and I wasn't able to get it going. I put an electric pump on the frame rail in place of the mechanical pump, it used to fill the return line as soon as the key was on, but now it barely makes it out of the pump. I'm thinking the pump is plugged. What are your thoughts?
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I will need a bit more info as you don't mention if the engine tries to fire up and wont keep running, are you getting any smoke from the exhaust, what is the engine that you swapped the injection pump off of and on to?? There could be many things that prevent the engine from starting, is it timed correctly, is the return check ball plugged, does fuel flow when you remove the fitting on the top of the pump? Check a few more things and maybe we can get it sorted out. Dave
+instructordave111 Thanks for the reply dave...my new compression tester came in last night...and told me that the engine is coming out...first cylinder was 5psi, second was 200...I didn't bother checking the rest after that. Just two bellhousing bolts holding it in at this point, I'm pulling it out the rest of the way after work. I'm kind of glad, because I'm pretty damn good with these engines and I was just so stumped as to what was going on and why I couldn't get it running. It's getting a 120k mile running 7.3 now. Thanks again for the reply.
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I'm glad you found the issue. Low compression is really bad for starting a diesel.Good Luck with the next engine. 7.3's were a great engine, just loud when cold.
stop solenoid wire got pulled, linkage no longer connected, when you opened it up?? Pretty wide open as to the cause of the issue. Go back through the steps of your repair.
Roosa master 5/32 hex driver. You must remove the governor spring assy. Then manual rotate engine until screw head is visible inside the top hole of the cam ring. One flat of the hex driver is all you want to turn the screw. It’s that sensitive! Approx. 10% more fuel. Perkins usually used a cav, Lucas rotary pump. Fuel adjustment is: remove side timing cover. Rotate pump to expose one of two hold down screws. Loose it just a little. Rotate until other screwhead is exposed, loosen it. Now you can carefully rotate plate a tiny bit to allow shoe to travel out further. Tighten screw, rotate again and tighten first screw. It’s worth mentioning that neither of these is recommended for those not familiar with these pumps. To many things can get screwed up. Also, these pumps are always calibrated, cranking them up, leads to excessive smoke, poor fuel mileage, sometimes messing up other settings, such as timing, high and low idle, even transfer pump psi. Which could destroy the pump. Bring it to a pump shop!
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
they can be tricky, but lay the parts out on a clean shop cloth and you should be OK. Keep things super clean and reassemble using clean diesel fuel. the tolerances are quite small in these things. Good luck with your repair.
If you have a fuel pump that fuel is getting into the pump through the inlet line but fuel is not exiting through the ports that go to the injectors, what could be the issue? Fuel is flowing in to the pump and then out through the return line.
+Randall P You may have a high pressure pump shaft that is broken, you may have an inlet valve that is not working, you may have an electric solenoid that is missing a wire or a ground or a fuse that won't allow the pump to go from shut off to run position. I will need more information to be more accurate in my diagnosis of your issue.
Sounds like quite a lot off possible things. Well the fuel stop or shutoff solenoid does work. Removed the pump and the gear that connects to the shaft is good. Before I got it, the owners put water in the tank. So drained that and the fuel water separator twice. Then put new fuel in. That's about all I can add. And thank your taking the time to reply
+Randall P There are many things that can cause your issue. I am wondering if the water that was in the tank got into the pump and the opposed plungers are rusted in place. The only thing that forces them apart is the transfer pressure fuel. If they are rusted in place they can not develop the pressure to force fuel into the injectors. Sounds like you may have a very contaminated fuel pump if water has been in there for any length of time. Please let me know what you find. Still I am just pointing out things that could cause the issue you have described.
instructordave111 Thank you very much for the video. I recently tore down a DB, not DB2, which appears to be the same internally other than the distributor portion. I read the service manual's description of operation thoroughly, but your video made it all come together. I appreciate you taking the time to make this.
Thank you very much for posting this video. I've asked several repair shops how a pump works; even going as far as offering cash and none explained this as well as you just did. Thank you thank you thank you. I will be more confident on my next repair.
Mark Ervin Happy that you got some value from this video.
I will teach you! How much? ☺️
I am glad I came across this video. I have a gm 350DX and the pump was a bit of a mystery.
Happy that it can still be of use to you.
Thanks for breaking that down for me. I believe you just solved my problem.
This is just great. Thanks Dave
What an excellent explanation. Thank you so much. I've been sitting here with a cup of coffee just scribbling notes and understanding everything. I love it when I find someone who clicks with how I learn. This video is very appreciated and I'll be referring classmates to this for help. Still good in 2020!
Thank you for the kind words Tanya. I am happy that this is still helping people understand how this pump works.
You provided some excellent help with your demonstration of the processes involved. Thank you.
Thank you, happy to be of help .
This video is awesome. I'm curious to know who develop the cutout of the pump. They great job!
If you read all the comments below you will see one by Ernie Johnson of Johnson cutaways. He is the one who made these sorts of excellent training tools.
I have a tractor that will start fine but idles high and I have no throttle response. Any ideas its a 4 banger with a cav pump
You may have an issue with the control on the metering valve or a governor linkage issue. the CAV pumps work a bit differently than the Roosa Master design in this video. I don't have a CAV video to reference on this.
Great video you should watch if you are tearing apart a stanadyne pump.
Thanks for very helpful video 👍🖐
If I had been more patient and watched the entire video, I would have had my question answered! Whenever I have a pump rebuilt and they replaced the delivery valve, is the new valve lapped or mated in some other fashion to the seat in the rotor shaft?
A new delivery valve would be a whole new assembly that is inserted into the rotor. The old one is removed and the new one is installed in it's place.
The dv is softer metal than the bore. So it wears but the bore does not. The dv maintains psi in the injection line, approx 500 psi less than injection psi. It helps the engine run smoother. Without it. The injection line to the injector would drop to no psi after each cycle, requiring more fuel to replenish the psi, and would cause a delay. All modern injection pumps utilize them.
Is there a way to use fuel under pressure or air pressure to un-stick stuck plungers?
Thanks
Due to the design of the pump, I would not use air to try to free them up as there may be water or dirt in the air you are using. You may be able to pressurize the fuel pressure test port but you would have to be careful to not over do it and damage some of the internal components. You should be able to apply the same pressure as the pump would see at high rpm. You would need to check your specs for your pump to determine that. Due to the very minimal tolerances inside the pump I would not hold out much hope for this to work. Good luck !
@@instructordave111 Thanks Dave! But........what port is the Fuel Pressure Test port??
Sorry I missed this question. The pressure test port is the black hex head plug near the top right side of the pump body in the beginning of the video. Hopefully you found the answer .
Iv watched this like a dozen times super good video, thank you!!
Thanks Raymond, I hope it makes whatever fuel system work you are doing, easier to understand and diagnose.
This is an awesome video. I never knew how an injector pump worked.
Happy that I could help.
It's a valuable video for me thank you
Thanks Instructor Dave.
Great Video, very informative.
Hello. great video. do you have some video or información for an stanadyne de diésel pum?
Stanadyne is Roosa master. Same pumps.
Thank you so much for your help and I wish if there is more videos about diesel pump thank you thank you thank you is there is any video for the burkins 3 cylinder
I do not have any other pump videos other than the port and Helix explanation. Thank you for using the distributor pump video to learn how they work.
If its a Cup seal, can i repair that myself? its coming from either the bottom or where it bolts. NOT the fuel lines side.
Hi Rick,
There is a "weep hole"in the area between the two Fuel cup seals that is there to let you know the seals are failing.
Do not JB weld over this hole or you will end up with the fuel getting into the oil pan and that will cause a bunch more engine issues.
The cup seals can be changed by you if you are a little bit mechanically inclined.
Set the engine at #1 cylinder on compression using the Cummins pin , make a mark from the pump housing to the front cover, remove the fuel lines from the pump, remove the pump from the engine ( you may need a puller to loosen the gear from the tapered shaft. Don't lose the key into the engine when you do that part. Remove the pump drive shaft and change the cup seals. Some manufacturers sell a seal installer tool when you get the new seals. When you reinstall the pump driveshaft, make sure the seals don't flip back using the tool and absolutely be sure the driveshaft timing marks are lined up inside the pump. When everything is apart, be sure that the engine or the pump do not move or resetting the timing could be an issue.
Good Luck with your project.
That was awesome! I have been trying to figure out why my pump is not distributing fuel and now I think it's because the rotor isn't moving. Any idea what would cause that?
Possibly a broken drive shaft, but that is generally due to a siezed pump. You can take the timing/inspection window off of the side to see if the pump is turning when the engine cranks. keep us posted on what you find.
Thank you for this video
But how does the fuel get from the top part to the advanced piston?
There is a drilled passage that allows transfer pressure fuel to act upon the advance piston. As the speed increases the transfer pressure also increases and the advance piston is moved against the spring even further to advance the BOI.
Excelente explicacion. Muchas gracias, profesor.
Thank you, I am happy that this old video is still helping people understand how it works.
What a fantastic video. Thank you.
Happy to be of assistance.
What would cause the throttle to start sticking out of the blue it's been rebuilt
Could be many things. start with the easy stuff, misaligned cables or linkage, kinked return lines etc. Internally it could be dirty fuel, flyweight not reacting or stuck, inlet valve issues, regulating valve issues, sticking check ball. Rebuilt doesn't mean operating correctly. My apologies to your rebuilder, we all miss things once in a while
Thank you, very informative!
Very good for me thank you.
Great video!!
Thanks
Hi! It's an interesting video and very practical. I have a problem with a gen set when I start the engine, it start out of frequency range and decrease slowly the rpm until reach the nominal frecuency. This occurs in about 1:30 minutes. Why could happen that? Thanks!
Based on limited information and assuming the genset is equipped with this type of fuel pump. I would guess that there may be something that is keeping the fly weights from bringing the rpms down to the speed setting for you generator. Spring settings may have been adjusted to a higher speed than is required. Hard to give a definitive answer from a distance.
what is name of the pump "full name" thank you
it is a Stanadyne DB2 high pressure fuel pump.
thank you very much
Is this a Stanadyne DB2 pump?
Yes it is the DB2 pump from Stanadyne.
Very helpful. So if I want to increase the overall amount of fuel that's available do I increase the size of the plungers and the metering valve or will increasing the size of the plungers do the trick? Thanks to anyone who can answer this question.
To increase fuel delivery on this pump, you can adjust the roller spring to allow the plungers to deliver the max fuel that they are designed for, but you can not change to bigger plungers etc. These pumps are only good for up to approximately 250 hp and then you are better off to go to an inline style pump for more fuel delivery capabilities.
I'm sure there are instances where someone has a pump like this at more than 250 hp but those would be limited instances.
IMHO
Thanks for the info. About 250 HP is about what I'm looking for out of this particular build. I know there are a couple of companies out there that are getting close to 200cc out of the pumps that are available for the 7.3 IDI. I'm not looking to get more than maybe 110cc out of a pump and since I have a couple that are currently not working I thought I would try to do it myself rather than pay several hundred to someone else. Worse case scenario it doesn't work and I have to order a pump but I learn something about these pumps in the process.
Parent of Twins if you are willing to experiment and learn something that is great. Just make sure you are working in as clean a place as possible. These wont tolerate any dirt getting into them. Measure the spring height and then tighten the screw to allow the rollers to deliver more fuel. Good luck.
Thanks for the info, advice, and video.
Altering the profile of the metering valve can alter the torque curve. As for increasing flow or volume, you can have the plungers ground shorter and a custom cam ring with a faster rise and longer stroke to match the shorter plungers.
There are many machine shops out there who could make the cam and regrind your plungers for a reasonable price.
Another option is to just recut the profile of the cam without altering the plunger. A larger base circle would increase stroke length of the plungers .
These are nice purpose built pumps with room for some fun.
If someone was ambitious enough, a split shot cam profile could be produced.
I have a old IH td6 dozer with a stuck plunger, will the whole pump need to be removed to repair?
I'm afraid your pump will need to be removed and rebuilt if the plungers are stuck. You may try filling the pump with fuel conditioner, but I doubt that you will have any success just trying that. If they got some water in them they will likely be rusted in place.
thanks, ill give that a try.
so it controls the amount of fuel but not the end of injection? doesn't this cause variation in injection pressure from cycle to cycle?
The injection pressure from one cycle to the next will remain constant if the engine speed remains constant. Injection pressure is the result of the fuel going through the injector. If the amount of injected fuel is increased the injection pressure goes up because the injector nozzle doesn't change it's hole sizes but the plungers will still be forcing the quantity of fuel out to the cylinder.What this means is that at any given speed you will have a constant injection pressure for that speed. At low idle speeds you need very little fuel and have a relatively long time to inject it. Where at high speeds you need more fuel to be injected and have much less time to complete the injection so the injection pressure must go up considerably to accomplish that. This pump will go from around 5,000psi injection pressure at idle to upwards of 23,000 psi at high speeds under load. For each situation the injector nozzle does not change so more fuel in less time makes higher injection pressure.
Sorry my wife was logged in when I answered some questions below so it shows up as her answering.
haha. is this a better system than the bosch ve where you actually control the end of injection? I realize that mightnt be a meaningful question
Both systems work so I am not sure I would place one as better than the other. In a distributor pump you are limited by the design so they are not found on anything with very high horsepower due to the fuel delivery limitations.A sharp, fully atomized beginning of injection is more important than the end of injection in my opinion.
I originally came to your channel because I'm working on designing a pump for a single cyliinder engine.
it's going to be like a PF pump but i want to have a control sleeve instead of a helix and rack.
it won't have a feed pump so I can't use this type of advance.
do you know of a centrifugal advance system that I could use?
If i have solid fuel coming into pump, and 50/50 mix of fuel and bubbles from return outlet, its pump seals?
jeff payne how does it run? Do a spill back test into a large bucket to see if you are getting enough return fuel. These pumps naturally aerate the return fuel to a certain extent. Maybe internal transfer pump issue, loose or pressure regulating valve not set correctly. Seals would leak from weep hole or dilute the engine oil. Keep me posted on what you find.
instructordave111
instructordave111
She runs like a top when i get her primed. New injectors, pump is about a year or so old. Very few miles since install at a reputable shop. Started and drove fine for about 6 weeks after injectors installed. Then one morning, no start. Fuel from return line had bled back to tank. Isolated the air intrusion with clear lines and can watch fuel bubbles leave pump. If i turn truck off, and immediagly restart, no problem. If she sits more then 10 seconds she loses prime and must be reblead. After hours of research ,i am believing the seals in pump are shot, thus creating an internal vacuum when shut off and filling return with air.
Thank you for your time both in posting a very informative video, and responding so promptly.
jeff payne check for cracked or leaking fittings or pump housing gaskets that may be leaking. Isolate the fuel system to a fuel can to see if there are any improvements.
instructordave111
Ill check the outlet , check valve and brass fuel fitting, as thw inlet line is new, clear line with compression fitting. The inlet line is clear and bubble free at all times. I can see fuel, no bubbles into pump after days of sitting. The clear return line is the fuel bubble mix, but when i shut truck off, it all drains rapidly from last injector to fuel can on ground. If i hopd line down in a loop, ypu can see a bubble now and again coming out of return line. Thats what lead me to believe the pump is sucking air and draining prime.
Having an issue with a Roosa Master on an '81 Waukesha mated to a MIller welder...that won't start after installing a new solenoid since the old one would no longer engage. It was working when last used though required firm tapping to shut off since the old solenoid wouldn't un-stick.
Am I to understand correctly that the functions of the upper housing on this one still work the same? IE the rod below the solenoid slides FWD//BWD?
When attempted to check how the solenoid fit in...since impossible to do so with the new one I used the old...I could see where the foot of the lever would ride but couldn't get that flat rod (6:12 for reference" to slide.
RuralTowner as far as i know they are the same. Make sure the diode is installed correctly across the two terminals
The solenoid is powering up with a definite CLICK. Am looking at a couple other videos and posting questions as well but I THINK i see now what might be going on. Just noticed that it looks like the foot hooks around another tab on the slide below as it seems to appear in this cut-away?
You definitely have to have all the linkages connected properly for this system to deliver the fuel. Check it all carefully, I know it's a tight spot to work in.
Seems on mine the solenoid foot wont go around the tab but instead sits behind it. Powered on the slide moves back on its own into the RUN position. Powered off the foot seems to press the tab and thus the slide to OFF. But I think it is trying to jam since it won't quite shut off all the way. Took some working even by finger-force to get it to move then free up. Engine RPMs drop but won't go off without some tapping on pump.
Carefully open up the foot a little more so it fits around the tab? Even the old solenoid didn't seem to want to go on? Or might I be missing something on install.
I am guessing that you have something misaligned in the linkages, possibly some worn out items or adjustment screws that are causing the binding linkage.
Excellent education
Housing psi is 8 to 12 psi.
showed this vid to coupla college boys from Morrisville & Cobbleskill ; claimed lernt more than in their own diesel courses .
+pops wrench Glad that this old video is still of some use out there. Thanks for the comment!
i'm an OOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD coblskill an Ag Eng grad found interesting as i changed out many of these old fuel jammers . and a new electronic on a JD 160 excavator . proper TIMING TOOLS all goes well .
I went to Morrisville too for diesel technology, and I didn't learn much there..it was a really crappy major. We started with over 90 kids and maybe 12 of us graduated, what does that tell you right there...this video was far more informative than any class or lecture. We did such a ridiculous amount of on paper, math formulas and diagram looking at, and hardly any hands on work. It might have been a 1:20 ratio of book to hands on work. Thanks for a great video.
Work with recent 2yr morrisville grad. He says our work when he was intern changed some of program.
Yea 4 good buddy you're comin in cruddy can you gimme a 10-9 on that
tell me about jonder 6068pump
Awesome video. I own a personal vehicle that is a 6.9. Its leaking from the bottom of the pump. somewhere. Not the fuel lines though, I made sure. it leaks very little. I can drive it around no problem. No air intrusion in the lines. engine still has its full power it seems. Any suggestions? I was thinking of putting JB weld. but something tells me that wont work... Sad day for the 6.9 engine.
Thank you for the video. I plan on keeping this truck until i die. its fun learning about it.
Its informative adjustments and working proceedure of speed limiters should be added
At the very end of your video, you talk about what happens if the return line is blocked. This is the first time that I have run into this comment. I have been looking for the reason that one of my engines stops whenever I raise power for the last several years. Would this happen with a CAV pump on a Perkins T6.354? I have replaced everything from the fuel pick tube to the CAV pump, and cleaned the filter at the CAV inlet with no success.
Check the return line all the way from the fitting in the pump ( it should have a small regulator spring and valve in it ) to the tank. I have seen where a kinked pipe or hose can restrict flow enough to cause running issues. Make sure nothing is clamping the return line, like a bracket or bolt. Ziptie's that are too tight on a rubber return line are also something to watch for. Does the engine completely stop or just lose power? Don't discount the supply side or the stand pipe in the tank either. Good Luck
instructordave111
The engine completely stops when put under load. Runs fine at the dock at idle and full rpm under no load, will also run in gear with no load, when bringing the boat up on plane it will stop after a minute or so. I will check all the return fuel lines to see if there are any restrictions. ( I already replaced the stand pipe when I found a hairline crack about four inches from the bottom, thought it was sucking air when the fuel was low. Not the problem.) Will let you know what I find in the return lines.
Chuck Krutzler Is the tank baffled well enough to keep the fuel from washing away from the standpipe under acceleration?
instructordave111
yes. Also, never had this problem with the starboard tank and engine.
Chuck Krutzler To eliminate the fuel system, you could run the engine in question with separate fuel lines and a jerry can to see if the problem is with the engine or the fuel system. Has the lift pump that supplies the injection pump been looked at?
What does this pump go to
Hi Aaron, this is a distributor or Rotary fuel pump designed for diesel engines usually smaller than 250 hp.
Hello Dave, could you please tell me what the start of injection timing should be (in crank angle BTDC) for an automotive engine. What should should it be at fully retarded (low idle) and at max rpm (fully advanced). Thanks
Hi Sunil, BOI will depend on the engine manufacturers design requirements and even the size of the engine will have an effect. I am going to relate my answer to a mechanical fuel system as the electronic systems can vary the timing and the length of delivery time based on input from the ECM.
In general at low RPM and idle you would want the timing to begin injection from around 5 deg BTDC to even a few deg. ATDC. The piston is moving relatively slowly and the fuel injected is minimal so not much heat is produced to ignite the fuel.
As RPM rises, the pistons are squeezing the air much faster and the quantity of fuel is increased so the timing must be advanced to give the fuel time to evaporate, ignite and release the energy on the down stroke.
This can be up to 30 deg. BTDC on SOME engines. The key is to not have the main pressure rise in the cylinder happen until the piston is a few deg. past TDC. This will allow the engine to produce the most and longest duration of pressure on the piston's power stroke.
I am not an engineer so I could not give you exact numbers for your application and much of this is information becomes skewed once engine performance modifications have been done.
I hope this helps.
instructordave111 thank you dave! this clears up a lot of basic questions for me. One more question; what are the two spacers in the stanadyne/lucas pump for? (the two thin rectangular plates with rectangular slots, under the roller shoes)
If I am understanding your question correctly, those are the opposed plungers and when they are forced together by the roller and shoe riding up on a cam lobe, they force the fuel out from between them and this is what becomes the injected fuel.
instructordave111 sorry. that was probably a badly phrased question. I'm not talking about the plungers. there's two thin plates under the shoes...
instructordave111 i took apart a delphi pump and I'm trying to figure out the parts. I'll make video and send you a link
Cómo puedo oír el vídeo en español
Sorry I do not speak Spanish.
you can give animated video...!!
Sorry no animations of this pump. There is an old Stanadyne video that is partially animated but that is all that I know of.
Good
Hi @instructordave111 , I have this same model pump all torn apart on my work bench, trying to turn DOWN my fuel delivery because the last eBay owner had it set way to high. my motor will hydrolock with too much diesel when a heavy load gets put on it. I really need your best answer even if you do not know, I can't afford to bring it in because i blew all my $ on buying the pump. I have searched hundreds of videos, and left all relevant comments on my problem and nobody replies so i was hoping you would know. Thank you @instructordave111
Hi Levi, on this pump the amount of fuel delivered can be reduced by turning the plunger spring bolt out, away from the rotor. this limits the amount of fuel that can be loaded between the plungers. it will be hard to get it right without a test bench but if you are comfortable with taking it apart a few times you may get lucky. Just make sure all components are kept extremely clean while you are doing anything inside the pump.
Oh thank you very much instructordave111 , So when I screw the spring bolt out will it remain secure? all i have to do is turn it out and it shouldn't come loose when i start running the motor? I am not home right now, so i can't look at the pump. Just checking to be sure is this the spring bolt you are talking about? image.trucktrend.com/f/tech/general/10383424%20w799%20h499%20cr1%20ar0/0809dp_04_z+stanadyne_db2_injection_pump+pump_elements.jpg
The leaf spring bolt? if not, I know I must be close you know.
Hi Levi, As with any internal fastener, I recommend using some type of thread locker like Blue Loctite. The leaf spring bolt is usually a slight interference fit but over time and possibly having many adjustments it may not have the tightness that will give you confidence. If it comes out during operation there are many things that will be destroyed inside the pump itself. You do not have to turn them in or out very far to make a change in the amount of fuel that is delivered. Having a chat with a fuel pump shop technician may help determine how much you want to restrict the delivery volume.
Okay thank you so much, I am going to locate a technician and ask him how much a quarter of a turn would affect the fuel. I will find that out all before hand. Finally, my last question, Do you believe I should be safe with adjusting the screw just one time and not have to worry about it coming apart while running? The screw was only adjusted one other time according to the seller, four or five years ago, and it has been ran a lot since.
Hi Levi,I would check that with the technician as well. If it has not been used as many times as the ones that I had in the classroom it may be fine, but I won't promise you anythig lie that from this distance away. Good Luck with getting it where you need it.
plz email me
PFM
It’s called the “DB-2” because D. B. Cooper invented it and it was his second design. Soon after, he successfully hijacked Flight 305 and parachuted from the Boeing 727 with $200,000. In 1971, $200,000 was a lot of money. He disappeared and, sadly, never realized the success of his now famous Injector Pump breakthrough.
Good to know, I was not aware of this i formation. Thanks for the contribution.
If anyone believes that one, I have some land in Florida that NEVER gets flooded, and I can get you a great price on the Brooklyn Bridge if you have cash.
@@dave7830 The Brooklyn Bridge shares is fake news. I know because I bought up the last of them several years ago.
Just got a 6.5 db2 pump, was wondering how it worked, theis video was amazing well done
I can imagine that it took some time to machine all the injection pump parts to expose the many passageways.. Excellent work. I've always wondered how these little rotary monsters did their work, and now have a better understanding of what controls my old 6.2 GM Detroit. I have recently acquired a late 90s 6.5L Turbo Detroit, with the PCM controlled Stanadyne DS4 electronic injection pump. If there are videos of this nature describing their inner workings I'd greatly appreciate viewing them!
I don't know of any cutaway type videos of the DS4 pump, but the ecm would be controlling the metering, governor and timing of the pump rather than being mechanical components. The guy that did this video may be a resource for you. th-cam.com/video/qWAZhEM-CKg/w-d-xo.html Good Luck.
They were not Detroit diesels . It’s a common misconception
In the automotive world they are considered Detroits starting with the 5.7 series, no it is not technically correct but it is an accepted term, it separates the miserable GM designed engines from the Isuzu designed GM engines. @@johngnipper8768
i own a 1986 international navistar in a f350, that was very interesting ,thank you
Great video. I have a 1981 Oldsmobile 98 Diesel and it has an injection pump that looks just like the one in this video. More Injection pump videos please. Thanks
It’s 2018 and I’m in my journeyman year of school, thanks for the great video.
MKB Rockets great that my old video still has some value.
Would a sticking delivery valve cause a white smoke condition across the RPM Range?
Sorry Armand, I apologize for not seeing this. Yes a delivery valve that is sticking open or has debris on the seat would allow drops of fuel to enter the cylinder via the injector tip. It is there to provide a quick BOI and EOI and maintain a head pressure in the line, without it there would be some unatomized fuel drops getting by. Sorry once again for missing this question.
Brilliant video and explanation. Thanks for sharing. I'm trained on Bosch, Delphi and Denso, and these Stanadyne pumps have always been a bit of a mystery for me. This video helped me a lot. Cheers.
Happy that it still helps after all these years.
Thankyou for a very informative video..i have learnt a lot and now understand why my pump isnt working..thanks again
I'm glad it helped.
you greatness is impossible to understate. I would like more information on the shut off solenoid and the different parts needed to move to turn the metering valve and the injection pump to ON.
Thank you Yubal,
The shutoff solenoid forces the metering valve to the NO fuel position when there is no electrical power applied to it. Once the ignition is turned on the solenoid is energized to create an electromagnet, which pulls in the stop lever and allows the metering valve to go to full fuel. The spring forces the linkages and levers inside to move the valve to full fuel. Once the engine is started the flyweights counteract the spring and cause the metering valve to adjust the fuel quantity to match the speed and load desired by the operator.
This old video may also help th-cam.com/video/DCPWHv2jJZE/w-d-xo.html
The cutaway of that pump is too cool.
VERY well taught. Thank you Sir.
Wish you could have done this while pointing at every piece with your pencil. But it's still helpful. Thanks man 😁
Sorry Debbie, I did the best I could.
How high is the preassure going to the engine?
That will depend on the speed the engine is turning. The injection pressure can be as low as 2000 psi at idle or slow speed and up to 25,000 psi at maximum engine speed.
Good video! thanks for making it! Could you go more in depth into how those rollers and plungers work?
+themadmailler The plungers are forced outwards by the incoming "metered" amount of fuel and then as the rotor turns the rollers contact the internal cam lobes and force the plungers back inwards towards each other. As the fuel is pushed from the area between the plungers the distribution port comes into alignment with the rotor and the fuel, under pressure, is delivered to the injector. I hope that is what you are looking for.
Thank you!
For anyone.....rebuilt DB in 64 jd3020. No fuel coming out ports. How smooth them plungers have to move back and forth? And would you say that they are spred out most the time so the cam hits them and drive that pressure?
Kenneth, the plungers must be absolutely free to move in and out. And because of the speed of the pump, they are always out unless the cam ring lobes are forcing them inward. As soon as they have rotated past the lobe,transfer pump psi pushes them outward to be charged for the next injection.
Injected quantity is based on both the metering valve position (charge pressure, same as transfer pressure at wide open throttle) AND the charge duration which decreases with increased RPM. This is offset with the increased transfer pressure with RPM.
Lower case pressure increases fueling as well as slightly advances timing since transfer pressure pushes the servo piston, rotating the cam ring. On the opposite side of this piston is case pressure.
this video helps. thank you
Very helpful for my diesel fuels class. thank you
Happy that it is able to help. I made the video for my diesel class. I figured they could watch it after class when they might be wondering what it was that they weren't paying attention to all day!! LOL
Wow. Great video Dave. Would this be a Standadyne or Roosamaster DB2 style pump?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :)
Thanks Joe, it is a Roosamaster DB2 made by Stanadyne.
instructordave111 if I remember correctly Roosamaster was bought by Standyne
Thank you very much. I have a hard time understanding this type of pump. And your video saves me. Thanks again. ❤️
Great Video!! Thanks for the explanations you gave, but I do have a question. Can you use this pump without a sending/lifting pump? What are the consequences? Thank you!
Rodrigo Bulman, you may be able to run it that way if the fuel tank is above the pump so it gets some head pressure. Generally there needs to be 3 to 5 psi and enough fule flow for the pump to work properly. Low power and hard start would be the first consequences that you notice.
What the author says is correct, but it was common on older tractors with similar pumps to gravity feed them.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Ok thanks great video
So good explanation Sir. Please explain to us the VE type if can
Anyone know how to rebuild a pump lime this my pump on my 7.3 idi went out and a rebuilt one is about 500 bucks which I can't afford
YEE-BOE People have done home rebuilds , but these pumps require some very precise timing and internal clearances that most home DIYers don't have access too. Good Luck
With the three injector lines undone at the IP should fuel squirt out, even if it is out of time. Also pulled the top off, shutoff moves back and forth like it should, put it back together. Now not getting fuel in the bowl, plenty of fuel flow to the IP pump.
Hi Tom, if there is fuel in the pump, the internal transfer pump is working properly and the metering valve is not in the fuel shut off position it should deliver fuel from the high pressure ports. Possibly the transfer pump is not working or the differential pressure valve is stuck in the open position. the electric lift pump is only there to deliver fuel to the internal transfer pump, which is there to deliver fuel at varying transfer pressures to the high pressure side of the pump. If this pump had any water in it and sat for a period of time some of the internal components may be frozen in place. It is actually not a complicated system, but many things have to work together at the same time to make the pump do what it was designed to do. .From your description it seems like the system from the tank to the inlet is working so whatever is the issue is in the pump
Keep at it and let me know what you find.
ds4 injection pumps look like an octopus
Great videos, using in alberta canada
I am happy that you are getting some use out of this old video. Good luck.
Could you make a video on how to replace the cup seals?
Or just tell me in reply to my comment.
I am not able to remove the distributor.
What is the easiest way to replace the seals?
Thanks
EvenStar LoveAnanda Unless you have a gear drive that can be removed from the front of the engine, you will not be able to change the cup seals without removing the pump drive shaft. The pump drive shaft needs to slide out from the front of the Stanadyne DB2 pump and there is a special tool that you can probably borrow to install the shaft with the new cup seals. It is designed to keep the seals from flipping over on installation. Also make sure you have the pump shaft timing marks in the correct position or you will be out by 180 degrees of pump rotation. check this bulletin from Stanadyne @559
Curious as to what kind of pressure is in the dome where the fuel shutoff solenoid is?
leverguy 3030 usually between 2 to 5 psi depending on how good your return fitting regulator spring is.
thanks a bunch!
Also, on a db2 is the FSS the primary shut down for the engine?..... as opposed to the ds4 that also has fuel metering solenoid.
Yes the solenoid is generally the primary shutdown.
The specs. Say 8 to 12 psi.
thanks for the upload
Could you increase the diameter of the plungers and increase fueling for more boost like a bosch m style pump?
You could adjust the plunger spring to allow for slightly more fuel or put in the pumping assembly from a higher horsepower pump as it will deliver more fuel. The easiest way is to just install the higher horsepower pump and injectors. These are not as easy to hot rod as the inline pumps are.
A US military Mechanic school instructor recommended this video to me.
I hope that it was of some use to you. Glad that my old video is still working for people out there. Have a great day.
Very happy after watching this very clearly narrated video of the very pump that I have recently had trouble with. Now this is clear to me why we had a problem. Thanks so much for such an effort.
Marielle Salom I'm glad the video helped in some way. Thanks for the kind words.
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
With our description I suggest that you open the inspection window to see if the internal rotor is turning when cranking the engine. If not you may have a broken pump drive shaft.
That is a very good tutorial. I have a question that has bugged me for along time, if the metering valve controls how much fuel is sent to the plungers and we know the plungers only move apart in relation to the amount of fuel delivered through the metering valve then how in the world does turning the screw that controls maximum plunger travel affect the fuel delivery?
Is it because there are times when the plunger travel limits the amount of fuel the metering valve delivers, if so that would only be in a max fuel state yes?
Yes you are correct the only time the metering valve is not the limiting factor is at maximum fuelling stage. The fuel, in that stage, between the plungers push them up against the spring ends. Adjusting the screw inwards increases max fuel delivery by compressing the spring and moving the spring ends out. the opposite occurs if the screw is turned the opposite way, which allows the spring ends to move in towards the plungers.
have case 580e backhoe the engine will start and run only if i actuate the hydraulics, load on engine makes it run? i need to fix this, trying to understand, worse than mg or vw lol
I don't think it has anything to do with the fuel pump. Sounds like you may have a hydraulic relief valve or unloader valve issue. Possibly the hydraulic pressure prevents the engine from turning the pump unless you manually give the oil a place to go. Good luck.
This is such an awesome video, thank you for sharing. I currently have an engine I swapped in and am trying to get going. I have my IP off my old engine on there and I wasn't able to get it going. I put an electric pump on the frame rail in place of the mechanical pump, it used to fill the return line as soon as the key was on, but now it barely makes it out of the pump. I'm thinking the pump is plugged. What are your thoughts?
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I will need a bit more info as you don't mention if the engine tries to fire up and wont keep running, are you getting any smoke from the exhaust, what is the engine that you swapped the injection pump off of and on to?? There could be many things that prevent the engine from starting, is it timed correctly, is the return check ball plugged, does fuel flow when you remove the fitting on the top of the pump? Check a few more things and maybe we can get it sorted out.
Dave
+instructordave111
Thanks for the reply dave...my new compression tester came in last night...and told me that the engine is coming out...first cylinder was 5psi, second was 200...I didn't bother checking the rest after that. Just two bellhousing bolts holding it in at this point, I'm pulling it out the rest of the way after work. I'm kind of glad, because I'm pretty damn good with these engines and I was just so stumped as to what was going on and why I couldn't get it running. It's getting a 120k mile running 7.3 now. Thanks again for the reply.
+Christian Riedel Hey Christian, I'm glad you found the issue. Low compression is really bad for starting a diesel.Good Luck with the next engine. 7.3's were a great engine, just loud when cold.
What a great video
Hi, We had to replace the O ring on the throttle control as it was leaking fuel, put it back in but will not start... any advice?
stop solenoid wire got pulled, linkage no longer connected, when you opened it up?? Pretty wide open as to the cause of the issue. Go back through the steps of your repair.
Very informative.
how can i change or adjust the injection quantity?
Adjust the leaf spring bolt, in to increase delivery, out to reduce delivery.
The leaf spring bolt being the part that the govener moves in the casing? I have a perkins 6.354 and can't find any information on the pump
Roosa master 5/32 hex driver. You must remove the governor spring assy. Then manual rotate engine until screw head is visible inside the top hole of the cam ring. One flat of the hex driver is all you want to turn the screw. It’s that sensitive! Approx. 10% more fuel. Perkins usually used a cav, Lucas rotary pump. Fuel adjustment is: remove side timing cover. Rotate pump to expose one of two hold down screws. Loose it just a little. Rotate until other screwhead is exposed, loosen it. Now you can carefully rotate plate a tiny bit to allow shoe to travel out further. Tighten screw, rotate again and tighten first screw. It’s worth mentioning that neither of these is recommended for those not familiar with these pumps. To many things can get screwed up. Also, these pumps are always calibrated, cranking them up, leads to excessive smoke, poor fuel mileage, sometimes messing up other settings, such as timing, high and low idle, even transfer pump psi. Which could destroy the pump. Bring it to a pump shop!
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Fantastic! Thanks.
I have a very unique situation, my truck suddenly lost a lot of power and was blowing blue smoke. It acts as if the timing suddenly changes to be extremly retarded. It started doing so after driving for about 7 minutes, and then i had one last hoorah after replacing my mechanical transfer pump for a electric inline pump. Ive checked fuel filter, injectors, replaced head gasket (and studded,) ive checked for cavitation in the cylinders as this is a 7.3 idi, and ive checked for return line blockages.
*mechanical lift pump changed for electric inline pump
The return line did seem like it need a lot of pressure to blow through that. Could this be the cause?
Engine also has stalled once
this cant be real, mechanical nightmare, i have to fix one of these. i have fear
they can be tricky, but lay the parts out on a clean shop cloth and you should be OK. Keep things super clean and reassemble using clean diesel fuel. the tolerances are quite small in these things. Good luck with your repair.
awesome explaination man. a bit more light would make it perfect
Thanks for the message. I am now retired so that video is as good as I can ever make it be. Good luck with whatever you are working on.
If you have a fuel pump that fuel is getting into the pump through the inlet line but fuel is not exiting through the ports that go to the injectors, what could be the issue? Fuel is flowing in to the pump and then out through the return line.
+Randall P
You may have a high pressure pump shaft that is broken, you may have an inlet valve that is not working, you may have an electric solenoid that is missing a wire or a ground or a fuse that won't allow the pump to go from shut off to run position. I will need more information to be more accurate in my diagnosis of your issue.
Sounds like quite a lot off possible things. Well the fuel stop or shutoff solenoid does work. Removed the pump and the gear that connects to the shaft is good. Before I got it, the owners put water in the tank. So drained that and the fuel water separator twice. Then put new fuel in. That's about all I can add. And thank your taking the time to reply
+Randall P There are many things that can cause your issue. I am wondering if the water that was in the tank got into the pump and the opposed plungers are rusted in place. The only thing that forces them apart is the transfer pressure fuel. If they are rusted in place they can not develop the pressure to force fuel into the injectors. Sounds like you may have a very contaminated fuel pump if water has been in there for any length of time. Please let me know what you find. Still I am just pointing out things that could cause the issue you have described.