I’ve been a SBC fan for 50+ years! Got a 99 Z28 and became an LS fan, new technology and all… until I learned the weaknesses and fell back in love with the SBC. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke! The engineers and the aftermarket are the reason the SBC is still a hard to beat combination. Love the short stroke more boost to overcome the “no replacement for displacement” mindset! Keep it up, old school brought into the next generation is how we keep our sport alive!!
Funny because I run a sbc to be different. It is a Dart little M block but still sbc. In a world of everything LS, it’s fun to do what they say can’t be done.
You ask the new generation about a sbc, it's like telling them you use to drink out of the hose, and had to use a phone attached to the wall and go to the store to buy music.😂
It’s unreal how the LS Fan boys WONT EVEN LISTEN to anyone saying ANYTHING negative about a LS. It’s like they are in a cult of some sort. This channel is going to be awesome. Hope to learn a trick or two for my grout filled 406 I plan to turbo soon. Thank you 🙏 for making a video of these short comings and SHOWING people what us old school guys have prolly mentioned I. Conversation before. THANK YOU 🙏 LIKES AND SUBSCRIBED TODAY
I have both LS1 and LT1 cars. Built LT1s are no joke, heck even stock LT1s are fun. Both are great engines. Dont really need much more than 500-600hp to scare passengers in a street car
Nice job really explaining in depth the difference between sbc vs LS.. I'm a proud owner of my 94 project trans am that I'm building and It's going to have a 383 LT1 stroker engine with AFR 195cc heads with a comp cam set up. My engine was built by golen race engines out of new Hampshire.. I'm building my 94 project trans am for street strip and cruise and car show events.. love my LT1 engine...👍
I'm of the opinion to 1000hp, an LS is cheaper to attain, but once you start going after market heads and blocks, a Small Block Chev is the better choice
Thanks for the great content! Your series has been packed with great information. I'm actually in the process of a 4th gen Fbody build. I was leaning towards LS but now seriously considering SBC. I have an old circle block SBC that I don't use anymore and might just resurrect.
Honestly the best video I’ve seen comparing the two. I love both honestly. Wouldn’t hesitate to put either in a project. For most daily driver, weekend hotrod guys there’s not a huge difference. If you want EFI go LS. If you want simplicity and cheap parts go SBC. That being said, there are fewer and fewer junkyard SBC’s on good shape. It’s not hard to get a good junkyard 5.3. Yet, here I am with a carbureted LS stroker. Very happy with it.
this makes me feel good... grew up on impalassforum & eventually built my "FleetwoodV" (its on here).. but man the entire time it was just "common knowledge" that our LT1 was just the worst thing in the world next to an LS. you've motivated me to boost the built motor that i have. 🤙
I think the parts pricing is due to demand, I was comparing it awhile back and big internal parts are pretty much the same. Sbf stuff was the cheapest, lol. Good for me. I think sbf has some of the best cylinder heads, 9.5” already has 1/2” heads studs, factory. It’s all the key board warriors thinking the the ls is superior and really don’t know squat about engines period. I’d take a sbc before a ls, just for all the reasons you stated. Plus they sound better.
I love LS but also love big blocks and the SBC/LT stuff is still great. I think they should have made the LT longer but I understand they had the optispark issues and they were ready to debut the LS with the C5 Corvette. Glad you are out there proving it and pushing the limits of the Gen 2 LT/SBC. Love this type of thorough content.
they killed the lt because they lost a lawsuit. they basically stole the reverse cooling design from an engineer. they settled the suit, and discontinued production. went on to the ls1. but also, epa mandated cafe standards, and reductions in hydrocarbon consumption, and output. their decision had zero to do with the optispark. they could have easily retrofitted it with the 24x and newer 411 ecu. the sbc design was simply not as efficient as the ls design. it was over 40 years old in 1995, the design had ran its course. they continued production as the vortec 305/350 until 2000,2002 in some vans and trucks until their plants producing the ls engines made the changeover and production volume could support the total changeover to the new platform. opti smopti.. lmfao
@@b.c4066 Yes it was Evans Cooling Systems. I'm sure the lawsuit factored into when they pulled the plug but LS1 and C5 Corvette development was also well underway by the time the lawsuit was settled. But it is why we never saw more factory parts after that. It was a hard stop. I do also love those Vortec SBC heads. We've had some perform really well. And those they still make for those 604 circle track crate motors and others.
@@jdrok5026 United States Court of Appeals,Federal Circuit. EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. and Patent Enforcement Fund, Inc., Plaintiffs-Appellants, v. GENERAL MOTORS CORP., Defendant-Appellee. No. 97-1146. Decided: September 16, 1997
I'm a BBC guy, and I've got a darton sleeved LS7 in my 67 camaro 4l80e right now but from what WE seen....the stock block on the street running coolant is the biggest difference they simply don't hold past 700-800 without cracking, especially if your at RPM... I do agree LS is over hyped and WAY over priced...I damn near bought a motown 434 gen 1 for dirt cheap while back because that dude just wanted to chase LS....BBC stuff has really come down and it's near infinity power holding.... As for optispark I have personally had hell out of it...and many friends up till 98 as well...little less with the MSD
Thank you for all your info ive got trick flow twisted wedge heads on a 355 old school that ive pulled out of my camaro and got a LS in it ive not started the motor its been 7 years and the 355 runs setting in the floor I know I'm a dumb ass after watching this video!! Thanks for all your knowledge I do appreciate it
I picked the LS platform because the whole family have great heads that are not only high flow, but really what shines on them, is how stable their valvetrain ends up being. You don't need to spend much to get some heads that really flow a lot, and can spin to over 9k. I spent about 2k and have heads that *should* out flow most anything, yet can fit a 5/8" pushrod no problem, and has really light valves, that are stronger than most aftermarket valves. Titanium and inconel valves were made from the factory... Other options exist too... But lets just take the gen 5 small block. A spin tron test by gwatney found they could run a .800" lift cam on a factory lt1/lt4 head. Stock rocker arms, no fancy rocker arm mounting or anything, just springs that were shimmed and pushrods obviously, they spun the deal out over 9k rpm with stability. That's the same type of deal you have with the LS. With the right products you can easily make a head that flows a ton, but also has incredible valve train stability. Ultimately the later gen blocks are still based on the old windsor, just with GM modern engineering, and modern materials. People can say whatever they want, but GM's performance engineering is second to none... historically, period. The C5R timing chain is a part I bough, they're really not too expensive, but damn are they a badass piece.... I get the advantage of the cylinder bolt pattern, but to me the exhaust valve pattern is just a worse headache. And, I know your car has had that issue too. For me the solution on the head sealing is just better fasteners and better head castings... Alloys are there. Athena gaskets (again aloys) for most, with half inch head studs are going to handle most people no problem. I have some 1/2" arp2000 bolts in mine. And that 110 rating on 1/2" arp studs is 75% of yield rating... So you can go quite a bit more, especially with some 2000's. The athena gaskets I know of cars that weigh over 4400lbs and make 1400+ for plenty of time and never had an issue. I think they can go a lot further than people have been running them... and again, most LS factory aluminum heads are super soft. The LS9 and LSA heads though are rotocast, with a356 and a different casting all together compared to the LS3. So most things aren't just as simple as slap it together, but nothing is in racing. Meanwhile I don't see how you can get around the exhaust valve issue on the SBC, short of running inconel flanges/primaries etc. Even then I feel like you'll run into issues eventually. I know of a 2000hp GM factory (sleeved) aluminum block 427 turbo cars that spin to over 9k rpm and do it on just 1/2" studs and a gasket that I'm not allowed to specifically say, but is definitely nothing fancy, doesn't even require any extra machining, nor does it cause any leaks.. Runs a factory oil pump, and a 4340 china crank. The only issue it ever had was when it backed out the oil pump bolts after several seasons. Bearings still were awesome and went back in. Still even has hydraulic roller in it, just some shelf johnson link bar lifters (so duration is around 250). So yeah to me, I don't see many problems with the head sealing. The biggest thing about the LS is just how good the factory engineering is, so aftermarket parts can very easily make it killer. Now though, post plandemic parts prices have shot through the roof and everyone wants to build an LS so that really sucks. That's why I am growing interest in the SBC more and more... As well as some other un expected small blocks. Oh also I always learned the LS pulls from closer to the registry on the head studs. And from what I can tell there is plenty of meat to go quite deep when you re-tap the block... My head studs are 5.31" long... Don't feel like it's a surface bolt, and don't feel like there's much cylinder distortion.... Not at least compared to what usually happens just from running the thing.
The LS most of the time never gets built to it's potential, not because the parts don't exist or because it's not possible. It's just because most people don't know what they're doing. Just like with anything in racing, who builds the damn thing makes all the difference in the world. It would be nice if something takes the popularity away from it a bit so parts can lower in price a bit.
The point of the video is which engine design I prefer at high power levels, like 2000+. Not which has the best stock heads, or which can spin 9000 rpms with the cheapest parts. I appreciate the response, and you make some good points. But there are many aftermarket SBC cylinder heads with a symmetrical port design that still retain the 5 bolt per cylinder design. Grubb is running the most basic, conventional, stock port location heads.... I mostly have done that to prove what they are capable of with big boost. We had issues with our exhaust flanges warping. The fix for that was just some thick, mild steel flanges using the stahl flange pattern which we drilled and tapped the heads for. We went from 304 to 321 stainless on the primaries. No issues yet after one full season. 321 should be used on a 2000+ hp build regardless of the engine type.
The biggest thing here imo is the distance from the cylinder wall to the fastener. The LS has a lot of landscape there and I also agree the head is flexing and lifting near the fire ring area. Those early cast iron heads probably wouldn't lift if subjected to the same abuse and idk that an aluminum head no matter how its cast can counter that issue. If those 4 bolts were moved in closer to the cylinder it would help greatly but you really need five. Anybody that knows the sbc knows the headbolts are clamping right on the fire ring. It's so cramped for space on a 4.125 bore its difficult to oring. Up in bore size and you have to figure 8 with wire and you have to be careful around the bolts. Also at the HP levels we're talking here I don't know the siamese exhaust valves would come into play because were making short passes, not many are running the streets with that under the hood, maybe a few drag and drive cars and yes a street car could be an issue but you can tap for fresh coolant on the head between the valves and some go as far to tap the block just below that area. Not sure but I imagine the reverse flow on the LT helps that issue, I know I haven't had any issues. Also there's aftermarket head options for that also. I will say those 327 casting LT blocks are way waay stronger than any oem gen one block imo. Even the same era vortec 880 blocks are not on the same level. Idk why but these LT blocks are tough.
Appreciate it Jonathan! My 93' Z has the same LT1 +/- out of my Sister in law's ol' Buick Roadmaster Station Wagon... n/a she made 1187hp when we screwed her together. The only other mills ( engines ) here are OBS Trucks and a 99' Suburban... my 70' Rallye350 with a 481X and the shop truck with a 4th Gen Coyote... in a 42' Sedan Delivery... lol. I always love smacking down the LS guys... I have never built one and don't plan to. Respectfully, Seth [ been thinking on a RSM " kit " lol... for my 93' ] !
Hell yeah......as it damn well should open everyone's eyes. There's another mechanic/tech with a youtube channel who has posted videos on why the old-school SBC is the best damned small block ever built, barr none. The short answer as to why, is those 5 head bolts per cylinder, instead of only 4 like most if not all of the other manufacturers used.........including Chevy with their LS platform.
There is. Ya just need to find it. Many great books about building potent SBC's from various authors who are/were notorious race/high performance engine builders. @@Final_Boss_Racing
Good stuff man. You said it, in your video. But I'm in the 400 hp (LS) zone right now. All of your points were valid, but mute for my power level. Reality, I will probably never see over 800 hp, which is my goal. I took it all in. No shade, I just started losing you after a while. To be fair I have two Small Chevy engines in my garage right now. Please keep posting. Just my feedback.
Didnt Moran run high 6's @205 in 2005 with a destroked wet 6.0l block? I believe That was a clutch car too and had to do a 30 mile cruise and around 31-3200lbs.
I dont know about Moran, but Kurt Urban and Wheel to wheel were first to the 6's I believe. It was in a pro mod chassis with a clutchless style trans. It was built to go 6's akaik... not raced for any significant amount of time, or even at all. And I don't think it held up. Kurt is a strong advocate for aftermarket blocks and the weaknesses and issues of the stock block LS stuff.... but he also hates LTjunk lol.
Sir, i am 100percent with you on the sbc 5bolts vs the ls 4. Or 6 bolt in regard to cylinder sealing. We see it daily in 7.3 vs 6.0 ford powerstrokes. My wildcard i'll throw in, is that there is a hotspot in the ls head castings between the headbolts on the ex side. There is very little coolant flow in the head in the exact spot the head gasket always blows. That is why.Grab your sawsall or bandsaw, and a ls headgasket. You will see why that same spot melts
If you look at the coolant flow in the LS head gasket, consider where it always blows on the ex side, then chop up a LS head casting, you will see little to no coolant flow across the hotspot in the head that always melts
Cooling the hot spot in the head that always melts or eats the head gasket would be much more beneficial than more clamping psi. Why aren't we chasing the consistent failure point? To sell more advertisers thicker deck heads with the same basic issue? You tell me
The engine steve morris makes now is a LS based but small block chevy style head bolt pattern. So its the best of both worlds. And yes i know its all billet and like 90k but just pointing out what he is doing and he states the same points Johnathon has made
I was going to start a you tube channel 😅 this was going to be my first video great video ... your still going to get the ls fan boy say this and that when in all actuality. All chevy did was take fords architecture and try to improve .they knew the power was in flow and if you stand those two valves up you can raise ports even more opening up a whole different world .we tore down a ls1 very first thing was head bolt pattern made us puke then we all got chubby britches over the camshaft bore .back in 1998 we LITTERALLY shut down the shop set up a Starrett b grade table then broke out the money meaning the indicators mics comparators and dial bore guages buy time the 16 hrs of wtf is Chevrolet thinking was done we swept the parts in a dumpster and slap our goto lt1 reverse flow block back on the bench there is so much good to bad they all have positives and negatives .I'm in the middle of my second personal ford build I have been a bbc or sbc guy since I realized I could not afford to build a Chrysler or ford plus bbc had all I needed we were boosting with Isuzu box truck turbos back in 1997 a vortech supercharger bolted to a bbc now that engine had trw forged pistons factory ported oval port cylinder heads a forged I think lunati crank brodix single plain and blow threw carb we made the bowls for it berry grant was the go to back then so was Mallory msd was a norm that full sheet metal 70 chevelle was known in the streets back in those days we didn't run our cars on the track unless it was a closed rental which did not happen much if we went to the track we would go to the one that only showed 60 ft and ¼ times we never ran ⅛th mile there was not much of it in our area we had one track that would run ⅛ races from time to time dependent on who was showing up not enough shut down .we liked the big end pull I still prefer the ¼ . I will tell you this as well I love the rotary engine my first time ever hearing and seeing a Mazda GLC, or Datsun fast back,Toyota starlet,Mazda rx7. Was a war on my 13 yr old emotional roller-coaster mind the sound of a peripheral port 12A in a Toyota starlet with a prostock aluminum strutted wing off the top back hatch when it started at that time I had not known what a rotary was I LITTERALLY ran to the pits I had to see what was making this ear piercing BRAAP ,BRAAAP, BRAAAAP. idling .then what sounded like the space shuttle on return from space sonic boom . I COULD GO ON FOR DAYS ABOUT THIS AND THAT WHY I BUILD WHAT I BUILD AND PREFER THERE IS NO THIS TO THAT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT IT IS WHAT YOU PREFER AND CAN AFFORD I HAVE BUILT A LS1 FOR MYSELF I HAVE BUILT MANY LS ENGINES FOR CUSTOMERS IN ALL SHAPES AND SIZES AS WELL AS FORDS AND CHRYSLERS EVEN BUICKS OLDS AND PONTAICS I HAVE OWNED A COUPLE LS POWERED PERSONAL CARS ALL BECAUSE MY FAVORITE BODY AND STILL TODAY THE MEANEST LOOKING CAR BUILT IS A PONTIAC FIREHAWK 4TH GEN T TOP CAR THAT IS MY FAVORITE LOOKING PLATFORM MY FIRST EXP WITH THE 4TH GEN WAS MY MOMS BRAND NEW OFF THE SHOW ROOM FLOOR CHEVY CAMARO SS 1995 WITH THE GENERAL MOTORS PERFORMANCE PACKAGE OFFERED BUY THE DEALERSHIP WITH GM PERFORMANCE parts HEADERS EXAUST CAMSHAFT INTAKE THAT WAS PURCHASED NEW WITH 3 MILES ON IT HAD A LOPPY IDLE WAS FAST AS hell FOR ITS TIME 1N 1995 A SHOWROOM FLOOR BOUGHT LOW 12 SECOND CAR WAS FUKING FAST.
I thought Air Flow Research was the first to do an Aluminium cylinder head commercially? I have an old B&W magazine advert I can send you if you want. The great thing I like when fitting an SBC, is you are taking part in over 70 years of American automotive history
I know they were the first to make cnc heads available to the masses. Warren Brownfield started the company back in the 60s I believe and may be the man behind the flow bench also. Brownfield evolved into AFR in the 80s when Ken Sterling came along I believe.
Thank You for taking time to share your wisdom and insights. I've been enjoying your racing efforts for some time now and it is very impressive indeed. Look forward to continued success and good ol' fashioned ass whoopin.
i remember reading about rivalries between SBC people and LS people in magazines way back in the mid 2000s, when people were getting similar power out of them. i recall a few of these points being brought up, seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same!
372 destroked 400sbc with fifd 2650 efi of corse.. loved the sbc's for decades and like alot of others still build them because they sound much better than LS
At the end of the day, if I had to cash to build my dream tubo Drag Race combo, depending on the vehicle, I would go big bore/short stroke aluminum block BBC all day long. Just something that could last an entire season with little maintenance and didn't ever have to work hard to the point of being run on the ragged edge every pass. Something like a 454 (4" Stroke), but with a 4.5" bore, so 509 CID or something, or de-stroked 540. Replace bearings (and maybe Rods) at the end of the season and call it a day. Unfortunately, BBC is a Club that is out of reach of many, due to the price of entry and completion of a decent combo.
it doesnt need to be argued the sbc has more support than all other engines today.. it is a fact! it had over 50 years of design and development. companies built around supporting the gen1 sbc. edelbrock, harland sharp. brodix, lunati, brownfield (now known as airflow research, aka afr) accel, offenhouser,and so many others it would take a paragraph just to name them.
Would like to see a side by side comparison with the bbc and the sbc/lt1. Informative videos are so hard to find on TH-cam. Thank you for posting. Subscribed 🤘🏼
It amazes me that you didn’t say a single thing about gasket technology . I have a tall deck Iron Eagle combo with twins and a stock block LC9 combo in two different cars and it’s night and day with sealing the two motors. Making intake gaskets every time and ultra black and right stuff all over . All the little issues with making all the custom changes to make the SBC a rocket block . I like them both and my SBC is a gangster but man is the LS stuff nice to work on . I liked The video a lot and you have me second guessing my 2000hp build . Maybe a SB2 .. aftermarket block vs aftermarket block . Head stud lay out , main stud size and journal size are the main advantages I see of the SBC . But the heads.. and the glue😂. What do you think an aluminum Brodix block will live reliably till?
The LS for sure has better, neater, gaskets. Then GM went and screwed the gen 5 up by not even using gaskets lol. Brodix seemed to think their solid cast block would support 2500 when I asked about it a while back. I've never built one, but they referenced Chuck from Street Outlaws and using one with great success lol.
Big fan of Grumbworm got a close look at it at the track one day I couldent belive it wasnt ls lol but was flying no matter what that old dog lt1 still gets down lol , But his ponts are very valid and detailed alot of thought in his build and use. Im just a plain ole chevy guy hell ill take a 305 and spray the hell out of it
Negative sir! There are plenty in racing period that use the sbc platform vs just turbojohn who runs no prep pretty much only and others that run a sbc vs a ls platform engine in prepped racing and or bracket racing.
I really wish the acronym sbe wasn’t used for stock bottom end. I read a article years ago when they referred to the ls engine as the SBE, being an acronym for “small block evolution”. It work so well when differentiation between small block Chevy,ls, and gen 5 Lt.
As a complete pinecone, one of the only short comings i knew of, especially with higher egts in turbo applications, is the siamese exhaust port. Seen many complan of the issues they cause. Is there anything you can you can do to mitigate the heat build up there ?
*Hey Jonathan, since you don't seem to mind sharing info about Grubbworm and your thoughts on the SBC/LT1/LS Topic* , could I ask your thoughts on Ignition Firing Order ? Do you run Grubbworm's LT with the old school firing order ? The 'middle child' 4/7 swap ? or the newer LS 4-3/7-2 swap ? While I am a 3-digit HP LS fanboy, they still sound like crap and still love big dollar SBC's. With everyone grinding special order cams for near-shelf pricing, or only $100 more, would you call someone dumb for wanting their mid-3-digit LS 'Daily Summer Cruiser' saddled with a 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 custom cam / SBC firing order ? Also, I have been listening to some SBC Racing Engine builders talk recently (boys from your neck of the woods actually) and all have essentially said that the SBC cam core, in terms of stability, can be further helped by spec'ing more tame cams and making up for lift (and the additional small amount of duration) using greater than 1.5:1 Rockers, essentially saying, to throw as much rocker arm ratio at the motor as can be accommodated by the heads/valvetrain etc. I would love to hear your thoughts, as I am not sure you have ever talked about SBC/LT1 Rocker Ratio and your experiences compared to the 1.7:1 LS vs 1.5:1 older stuff before. Just an idea for a new video if you have time to chat. thanks again for all of the info.
The Australian pro stock class runs a traditional small block architecture, 400 cubic inch and with the heads developed for them they're making 1100 horsepower naturally aspirated. Just goes to show if you put a 14° head on a traditional small block there's Great-Power potential.
The condensed version for the short attention span plagued young’uns: The Gen 1/2 SBC surpasses the LS in pretty much every respect unless you’re running a lower hp/low buck combo. The end.
I love sbc but my only concern is what's the block limits of a 69dz302. I stroked it to a 360ci Forged rotating assembly main girdle studs brodix heads coil on plug port injection. Basically take all the good new tech of a ls an put it on a sbc.
Interesting I’m about to pull an sbc in favor for LS with the idea of making a 1000 plus. Seems a heck of a lot easier to make that with an LS. That being said I already have a set of AFR 227 heads and from what I can tell it’s still cheaper to go Ls. What am I missing?
Good video.. I’d still like to test the thrust bearing issue you speak of though. 6 cylinders pushing against the back 2 cylinders during the “load” would cause the front two two twist more than the second than the third to the back cylinders. I could see the load actually being spread more even . There will be some flex yes at the back of the crank but I’d prefer the back and front to twist and do it evenly than the crank twisting in a long manner if that makes sense. Twist a short piece of rope then twist a long rope.. which one turns and knots up?
Seen an all stock 98 350 with 240k miles .strapped with a turbo kit with a waste gate spring provided with the kit. Made 640 HP and 600+ torque they where freaking out because they just thought o it's 5-7 psi spring. Gotta be weary of them eBay kits lol some are set to kill.
I'm 22 trying to get my TH-cam channel off the ground, I custom built a 6.0 LS for my El Camino cuz I wanted to do something new (been doing SBC BBC since I was 8) now after blowing tons of money and multiple transmissions, I wish I built a big block lol
I’m looking at cams for an LT1 in a 1996 Z28 to go with a set of trick flow 185 heads. It’s going to be running a ported stock intake, torqhead 24x setup, 1.6 scorpion roller rockers, long tubes, and 3” duals. Y’all’s website is acting up tonight but I think im going to go with one of the tick performance cams. What do you recommend for fun little street rod? I want good midrange power and a nice little chop at idle.
Thanks for all the insight. You run a filled block do you run the heads dry also ? Heard turbo John was cracking heads running totally dry setup ? I wanna go all dry setup but afraid of cracking heads. Running AFR heads now
Awesome video. Grubb Worm is a bad car. I have a 96 Z28 6 speed with 117k miles perfect interior all motor 483hp LT1 on SS 17in wheels and lowered. The guys in their 20s are all like it’s not a LS so who cares. I’m 41 guys my age live the car. I’d never put or get a Fbody with a LS. I’m not a catfish front end fan. Anyone that says the LS is better in a Fbody I send them right to Grubb Worm videos. I put the Torque Head OptiSpark conversion on the car and it’s fine you can tune it like any other car. Tick Performance is the best with LT1 stuff for sure and Grubby is the baddest 4th gen stick car around and ever in my opinion.
But lets talk about the gen5 lt engines. I do believe the L8T 6.6 will muster what you have done with gen2 lt1. Gm fixed there week deck design the ls had on on the gen 5 lt engines. Scoggin dicky has already built a 2000+hp L8T using its factory crank. What you think about the strength of the LT4 and L8T John
Look at the weight of that block! And it came factory with a forged crank and rods, still not many head fasteners, though. And that is dyno horsepower. Let's see it run a race season.
@jacompitition I know currently your sbc(lt1) is a filled block, but do the same positive characteristics of the sbc(lt1) over LS stay true when comparing the two as street cars with water cooled blocks?
You have some good and proven points however the vast majority of people are trying to make 500 hp and that is easily achieved with a sbe cam and a few other aftermarket parts to make that with a stock 350 you really have to spent money in the heads intake distributor rod bolt ring gap and hope the pistons don’t explode under the pressure so I agree with you on the power level
Yes, LS is great for budget hp as noted. But the gen 2 sbc/LT is no slouch. I have a street car 96 SS that made 424 rwhp through a 12 bolt on ET streets. Stock bottom end, opti, original pcm i tuned with LT1 edit, etc. It has a Tick shelf cam (that I spec'd lol), some mildly hand ported stock heads, with stock 1.94/1.50 valves. Stock intake manifold hand ported to match. The LT stuff is really only 20 hp or so lower than LS1 stuff mod for mod, and stock for stock, and will pretty easily out perform similarly molded 5.3's.
Question. You are correct on the LS/LT heads. Are the mod motors/coyote and gen3 Hemi the same way with cylinder pressure and leaking head gaskets? They have the same 4 bolt per cylinder pattern i do believe.
I can't really say how the Coyote or later hemi stuff holds up. Smaller engines with 4 bolt per cylinder design likely have less distance from fastener to fastener... and of course how rigid the head itself is can make a big difference. Even a big nasty billet Hemi like a promod would run has 4 bolt per cylinder I believe.... but that's with a solid billet head and 9/16" fasteners.
They do, Coyotes start wrecking sleeves, Gen 3 Hemis have thin crowned pistons. Although the blocks on all three engines are cross bolted, 6 bolt main style, the 4 bolts per cylinder let them down. The heads on all three flow a ton, but the Coyote is excessively complicated and more expensive to modify. The Gen 3 Hemi is, in my opinion, a variation of the LS/LT. Bore spacing and other things are really close
@@hoost3056Try again... Absolutely NO Ford has head gasket sealing issued like an LS which there is no cure for... Sleaving a Coyote cures any problems with the cylinder. Good luck making 3000 reliable horsepower with an LS in ANY form... They aren't overly complicated in any way just more advanced technology... Some folks just lack enough brain cells to work on anything that isn't OHV... If a chicken had hands it could build an LS, 😂😂😂
The place in the hotrod ls world is for the millions of 6.0 square port with 300cfm heads. We pay $500 for these core motors. They will make 420whp on a dynojet with around 230ish at 50 with a factory pistons at 9.6:1cr A vortec 350 core with a much bigger cam is lucky to make 300whp dynojet.
Yep, LS is great for low budget bang for your buck when not much power is the goal. Fwiw, I have a 96 SS Camaro that made 424 rwhp with some mild hand port work on the stock heads and intake and a 241/245 cam. SBE. They can make great power also, with the right parts.
I personally went with a gen 1 SBC simply because it’s what I am most familiar with. I do have a Dart Little M block and AFR heads. At what HP level, or boost level should I start having to worry about my MLS head gaskets blowing out?
I should also add that I went old school on my thought process and have only 8.3:1 compression. When I end up having to go through it, I will probably add top fuel hoops and a bit more compression.
I use to be a LS fanboy untill i argued with Johnathan atkins.. its not rocket science and it makes sence why the sbc gen2 lt1 is a strongest stock block then the LS. The Grubworm runs in field of cars that mostoy have aftermarket block LS engines and they still struggle to keep there ls engines together to beat the stock block sbc lt1.
Some would say the smaller the main journal the less bearing speed you have, less surface area for a bearing to grab, back in the day the bigger the better was the thinking and was really relying on oil film.
You're correct, but the bigger the better (to a point) still applies at extreme power levels. The smaller the main, the more likely to flex the crank becomes. Some old engines had huge mains, like Pontiac 400's and 455's. The later years had the largest cranks I believe, because those years had went from forged 'steel' cranks to weaker cast iron material. The Dart Next2 option steps the LS engine up from the standard main diameter to that of a Cleveland Ford for the strongest possible crank which is usefull when running longer strokes, 4" and greater IMO.
Would you run a sbc or ls on a roadcourse and autocross setup? Im building a 1970 corvette protruding for track and autocross. Looking for all aluminum 500 crank hp
This is why I love seeing what guys come up with on the CNC for Billet Blocks, such as Steve Morris' SML. Standard Deck LS, all external dimensions/mounting/accessories, but Billet Heads (required with block) to match, with relocated 6 studs per cylinder @ 1/2" , BBC cam tunnel, Splayed Main Caps, Cleveland Mains Billet Crankshaft etc. A 400 or 427 CID 3500+HP package on Turbos, as with any other Turbo engine, that can make Grocery runs as easily as Passes at the Strip, as the block and heads are fully water cooled as well (but dry decked).....and doesn't spit out head gaskets. Unfortunately, out of reach financially for the average person. Along with the price, the other downside is he won't sell a bare block w/heads.... he will only sell it as a complete engine, Billet Intake to Dry Sump Pan and it's close to the 100k USD price range I believe.....Standard 4.125" Bores, but you do get to choose the crankshaft stroke, so 400 or 427 (3.750" or 4.00") as of now. I am sure that 388's (3.622) will be a future choice.
Do you have problems with head studs and the filler on the gen 1 and 2 since all gen 1 go into the water and gen 2 all but the top 4 go into water or in this case into filler? How do you work the filler around the head studs? Never filled one so just curious.
I just screw some bolts into the deck that have the same reach as the studs, then fill the block. Once the filler starts to set up, which is only a few minutes with Rok Block, I screw those bolts out.
I’ve been a SBC fan for 50+ years! Got a 99 Z28 and became an LS fan, new technology and all… until I learned the weaknesses and fell back in love with the SBC. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke! The engineers and the aftermarket are the reason the SBC is still a hard to beat combination. Love the short stroke more boost to overcome the “no replacement for displacement” mindset! Keep it up, old school brought into the next generation is how we keep our sport alive!!
Funny because I run a sbc to be different. It is a Dart little M block but still sbc. In a world of everything LS, it’s fun to do what they say can’t be done.
You ask the new generation about a sbc, it's like telling them you use to drink out of the hose, and had to use a phone attached to the wall and go to the store to buy music.😂
😂😂😂 yup
It’s unreal how the LS Fan boys WONT EVEN LISTEN to anyone saying ANYTHING negative about a LS. It’s like they are in a cult of some sort. This channel is going to be awesome. Hope to learn a trick or two for my grout filled 406 I plan to turbo soon. Thank you 🙏 for making a video of these short comings and SHOWING people what us old school guys have prolly mentioned I. Conversation before. THANK YOU 🙏 LIKES AND SUBSCRIBED TODAY
Bill “ the old man’s garage” gonna adopt you. 😂😂.
I have both LS1 and LT1 cars. Built LT1s are no joke, heck even stock LT1s are fun. Both are great engines. Dont really need much more than 500-600hp to scare passengers in a street car
Nice job really explaining in depth the difference between sbc vs LS.. I'm a proud owner of my 94 project trans am that I'm building and It's going to have a 383 LT1 stroker engine with AFR 195cc heads with a comp cam set up. My engine was built by golen race engines out of new Hampshire.. I'm building my 94 project trans am for street strip and cruise and car show events.. love my LT1 engine...👍
I'm of the opinion to 1000hp, an LS is cheaper to attain, but once you start going after market heads and blocks, a Small Block Chev is the better choice
Thanks for the great content! Your series has been packed with great information. I'm actually in the process of a 4th gen Fbody build. I was leaning towards LS but now seriously considering SBC. I have an old circle block SBC that I don't use anymore and might just resurrect.
Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts on the different engine combos , I hope to see more of this.
Honestly the best video I’ve seen comparing the two. I love both honestly. Wouldn’t hesitate to put either in a project. For most daily driver, weekend hotrod guys there’s not a huge difference. If you want EFI go LS. If you want simplicity and cheap parts go SBC. That being said, there are fewer and fewer junkyard SBC’s on good shape. It’s not hard to get a good junkyard 5.3.
Yet, here I am with a carbureted LS stroker. Very happy with it.
this makes me feel good... grew up on impalassforum & eventually built my "FleetwoodV" (its on here).. but man the entire time it was just "common knowledge" that our LT1 was just the worst thing in the world next to an LS. you've motivated me to boost the built motor that i have. 🤙
Built my first SBC 327 in 1983, it's still going, it was my Dads race motor prior to that.
I think the parts pricing is due to demand, I was comparing it awhile back and big internal parts are pretty much the same. Sbf stuff was the cheapest, lol. Good for me. I think sbf has some of the best cylinder heads, 9.5” already has 1/2” heads studs, factory. It’s all the key board warriors thinking the the ls is superior and really don’t know squat about engines period. I’d take a sbc before a ls, just for all the reasons you stated. Plus they sound better.
Blind sheep who dont know shit and just repeat the same thing others say but 0 knowledge this is what is wrong with the US today.
The fact you make that work is so damn impressive and your man shifting.
GM High Tech Perf magazine! My car was featured in their January '99 issue. '91 Camaro. The article was called "Red With Rage".
I like the gas ported pistons you run, good stuff. This kind of content kicks ass! Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Y'all take care.
I love LS but also love big blocks and the SBC/LT stuff is still great. I think they should have made the LT longer but I understand they had the optispark issues and they were ready to debut the LS with the C5 Corvette. Glad you are out there proving it and pushing the limits of the Gen 2 LT/SBC. Love this type of thorough content.
they killed the lt because they lost a lawsuit. they basically stole the reverse cooling design from an engineer. they settled the suit, and discontinued production. went on to the ls1. but also, epa mandated cafe standards, and reductions in hydrocarbon consumption, and output. their decision had zero to do with the optispark. they could have easily retrofitted it with the 24x and newer 411 ecu. the sbc design was simply not as efficient as the ls design. it was over 40 years old in 1995, the design had ran its course. they continued production as the vortec 305/350 until 2000,2002 in some vans and trucks until their plants producing the ls engines made the changeover and production volume could support the total changeover to the new platform. opti smopti.. lmfao
@@b.c4066Glad for the history lesson, ashame you had to end it on a immature note. 🤔
@@b.c4066 Yes it was Evans Cooling Systems. I'm sure the lawsuit factored into when they pulled the plug but LS1 and C5 Corvette development was also well underway by the time the lawsuit was settled. But it is why we never saw more factory parts after that. It was a hard stop. I do also love those Vortec SBC heads. We've had some perform really well. And those they still make for those 604 circle track crate motors and others.
@b.c4066 you got a case number.
@@jdrok5026
United States Court of Appeals,Federal Circuit.
EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. and Patent Enforcement Fund, Inc., Plaintiffs-Appellants, v. GENERAL MOTORS CORP., Defendant-Appellee.
No. 97-1146.
Decided: September 16, 1997
It's about time someone say sbc better in ways I still rocking my lt1 in my z28
I'm a BBC guy, and I've got a darton sleeved LS7 in my 67 camaro 4l80e right now but from what WE seen....the stock block on the street running coolant is the biggest difference they simply don't hold past 700-800 without cracking, especially if your at RPM...
I do agree LS is over hyped and WAY over priced...I damn near bought a motown 434 gen 1 for dirt cheap while back because that dude just wanted to chase LS....BBC stuff has really come down and it's near infinity power holding....
As for optispark I have personally had hell out of it...and many friends up till 98 as well...little less with the MSD
Thank you for all your info ive got trick flow twisted wedge heads on a 355 old school that ive pulled out of my camaro and got a LS in it ive not started the motor its been 7 years and the 355 runs setting in the floor I know I'm a dumb ass after watching this video!! Thanks for all your knowledge I do appreciate it
Appreciate your perspective and your time. Love the jump rope reference
I picked the LS platform because the whole family have great heads that are not only high flow, but really what shines on them, is how stable their valvetrain ends up being. You don't need to spend much to get some heads that really flow a lot, and can spin to over 9k. I spent about 2k and have heads that *should* out flow most anything, yet can fit a 5/8" pushrod no problem, and has really light valves, that are stronger than most aftermarket valves. Titanium and inconel valves were made from the factory... Other options exist too...
But lets just take the gen 5 small block. A spin tron test by gwatney found they could run a .800" lift cam on a factory lt1/lt4 head. Stock rocker arms, no fancy rocker arm mounting or anything, just springs that were shimmed and pushrods obviously, they spun the deal out over 9k rpm with stability.
That's the same type of deal you have with the LS. With the right products you can easily make a head that flows a ton, but also has incredible valve train stability.
Ultimately the later gen blocks are still based on the old windsor, just with GM modern engineering, and modern materials. People can say whatever they want, but GM's performance engineering is second to none... historically, period. The C5R timing chain is a part I bough, they're really not too expensive, but damn are they a badass piece....
I get the advantage of the cylinder bolt pattern, but to me the exhaust valve pattern is just a worse headache. And, I know your car has had that issue too. For me the solution on the head sealing is just better fasteners and better head castings... Alloys are there. Athena gaskets (again aloys) for most, with half inch head studs are going to handle most people no problem. I have some 1/2" arp2000 bolts in mine. And that 110 rating on 1/2" arp studs is 75% of yield rating... So you can go quite a bit more, especially with some 2000's.
The athena gaskets I know of cars that weigh over 4400lbs and make 1400+ for plenty of time and never had an issue. I think they can go a lot further than people have been running them... and again, most LS factory aluminum heads are super soft. The LS9 and LSA heads though are rotocast, with a356 and a different casting all together compared to the LS3. So most things aren't just as simple as slap it together, but nothing is in racing.
Meanwhile I don't see how you can get around the exhaust valve issue on the SBC, short of running inconel flanges/primaries etc. Even then I feel like you'll run into issues eventually.
I know of a 2000hp GM factory (sleeved) aluminum block 427 turbo cars that spin to over 9k rpm and do it on just 1/2" studs and a gasket that I'm not allowed to specifically say, but is definitely nothing fancy, doesn't even require any extra machining, nor does it cause any leaks.. Runs a factory oil pump, and a 4340 china crank. The only issue it ever had was when it backed out the oil pump bolts after several seasons. Bearings still were awesome and went back in. Still even has hydraulic roller in it, just some shelf johnson link bar lifters (so duration is around 250).
So yeah to me, I don't see many problems with the head sealing. The biggest thing about the LS is just how good the factory engineering is, so aftermarket parts can very easily make it killer.
Now though, post plandemic parts prices have shot through the roof and everyone wants to build an LS so that really sucks. That's why I am growing interest in the SBC more and more... As well as some other un expected small blocks.
Oh also I always learned the LS pulls from closer to the registry on the head studs. And from what I can tell there is plenty of meat to go quite deep when you re-tap the block... My head studs are 5.31" long... Don't feel like it's a surface bolt, and don't feel like there's much cylinder distortion.... Not at least compared to what usually happens just from running the thing.
The LS most of the time never gets built to it's potential, not because the parts don't exist or because it's not possible. It's just because most people don't know what they're doing. Just like with anything in racing, who builds the damn thing makes all the difference in the world.
It would be nice if something takes the popularity away from it a bit so parts can lower in price a bit.
The point of the video is which engine design I prefer at high power levels, like 2000+. Not which has the best stock heads, or which can spin 9000 rpms with the cheapest parts. I appreciate the response, and you make some good points. But there are many aftermarket SBC cylinder heads with a symmetrical port design that still retain the 5 bolt per cylinder design. Grubb is running the most basic, conventional, stock port location heads.... I mostly have done that to prove what they are capable of with big boost.
We had issues with our exhaust flanges warping. The fix for that was just some thick, mild steel flanges using the stahl flange pattern which we drilled and tapped the heads for. We went from 304 to 321 stainless on the primaries. No issues yet after one full season. 321 should be used on a 2000+ hp build regardless of the engine type.
Damn! Just go write a book! Motor mouth!
Athenas are garbage and people that build engines with them are lazy and cheap! O ring or top fuel hoop it!
The biggest thing here imo is the distance from the cylinder wall to the fastener. The LS has a lot of landscape there and I also agree the head is flexing and lifting near the fire ring area. Those early cast iron heads probably wouldn't lift if subjected to the same abuse and idk that an aluminum head no matter how its cast can counter that issue. If those 4 bolts were moved in closer to the cylinder it would help greatly but you really need five. Anybody that knows the sbc knows the headbolts are clamping right on the fire ring. It's so cramped for space on a 4.125 bore its difficult to oring. Up in bore size and you have to figure 8 with wire and you have to be careful around the bolts. Also at the HP levels we're talking here I don't know the siamese exhaust valves would come into play because were making short passes, not many are running the streets with that under the hood, maybe a few drag and drive cars and yes a street car could be an issue but you can tap for fresh coolant on the head between the valves and some go as far to tap the block just below that area. Not sure but I imagine the reverse flow on the LT helps that issue, I know I haven't had any issues. Also there's aftermarket head options for that also. I will say those 327 casting LT blocks are way waay stronger than any oem gen one block imo. Even the same era vortec 880 blocks are not on the same level. Idk why but these LT blocks are tough.
@@JACompetitionwho makes the best heads these days for a LT1 now?
Appreciate it Jonathan! My 93' Z has the same LT1 +/- out of my Sister in law's ol' Buick Roadmaster Station Wagon... n/a she made 1187hp when we screwed her together. The only other mills ( engines ) here are OBS Trucks and a 99' Suburban... my 70' Rallye350 with a 481X and the shop truck with a 4th Gen Coyote... in a 42' Sedan Delivery... lol. I always love smacking down the LS guys... I have never built one and don't plan to.
Respectfully, Seth
[ been thinking on a RSM " kit " lol... for my 93' ] !
Like the details of video. And thanks for the chat at Carolina Dragway in the VIP tent
Definitely subbed bro. I talked to you about the 396 I got from Carlos a few weeks ago. Nice to see you here 💪
I strongly agree my friend … Sbc ftw
This one video has really opened my eyes.
Hell yeah......as it damn well should open everyone's eyes. There's another mechanic/tech with a youtube channel who has posted videos on why the old-school SBC is the best damned small block ever built, barr none. The short answer as to why, is those 5 head bolts per cylinder, instead of only 4 like most if not all of the other manufacturers used.........including Chevy with their LS platform.
@@howabouthetruth2157 I wish there was more info out there.
There is. Ya just need to find it. Many great books about building potent SBC's from various authors who are/were notorious race/high performance engine builders. @@Final_Boss_Racing
Good stuff man. You said it, in your video. But I'm in the 400 hp (LS) zone right now. All of your points were valid, but mute for my power level. Reality, I will probably never see over 800 hp, which is my goal. I took it all in. No shade, I just started losing you after a while. To be fair I have two Small Chevy engines in my garage right now. Please keep posting. Just my feedback.
I'm at 400 plus hp to with a sbc !!!!
Didnt Moran run high 6's @205 in 2005 with a destroked wet 6.0l block? I believe That was a clutch car too and had to do a 30 mile cruise and around 31-3200lbs.
I dont know about Moran, but Kurt Urban and Wheel to wheel were first to the 6's I believe. It was in a pro mod chassis with a clutchless style trans.
It was built to go 6's akaik... not raced for any significant amount of time, or even at all. And I don't think it held up. Kurt is a strong advocate for aftermarket blocks and the weaknesses and issues of the stock block LS stuff.... but he also hates LTjunk lol.
Very smart and innovative, literally amazing accomplishments with good ol Chevy stuff
Sir, i am 100percent with you on the sbc 5bolts vs the ls 4. Or 6 bolt in regard to cylinder sealing. We see it daily in 7.3 vs 6.0 ford powerstrokes. My wildcard i'll throw in, is that there is a hotspot in the ls head castings between the headbolts on the ex side. There is very little coolant flow in the head in the exact spot the head gasket always blows. That is why.Grab your sawsall or bandsaw, and a ls headgasket. You will see why that same spot melts
If you look at the coolant flow in the LS head gasket, consider where it always blows on the ex side, then chop up a LS head casting, you will see little to no coolant flow across the hotspot in the head that always melts
Cooling the hot spot in the head that always melts or eats the head gasket would be much more beneficial than more clamping psi. Why aren't we chasing the consistent failure point? To sell more advertisers thicker deck heads with the same basic issue? You tell me
I don’t prefer a larger main journal I prefer a smaller because of surface area along with the distance from the main bolts
Great video! I'm glad you started a TH-cam channel!
The engine steve morris makes now is a LS based but small block chevy style head bolt pattern. So its the best of both worlds. And yes i know its all billet and like 90k but just pointing out what he is doing and he states the same points Johnathon has made
I was going to start a you tube channel 😅 this was going to be my first video great video ... your still going to get the ls fan boy say this and that when in all actuality. All chevy did was take fords architecture and try to improve .they knew the power was in flow and if you stand those two valves up you can raise ports even more opening up a whole different world .we tore down a ls1 very first thing was head bolt pattern made us puke then we all got chubby britches over the camshaft bore .back in 1998 we LITTERALLY shut down the shop set up a Starrett b grade table then broke out the money meaning the indicators mics comparators and dial bore guages buy time the 16 hrs of wtf is Chevrolet thinking was done we swept the parts in a dumpster and slap our goto lt1 reverse flow block back on the bench there is so much good to bad they all have positives and negatives .I'm in the middle of my second personal ford build I have been a bbc or sbc guy since I realized I could not afford to build a Chrysler or ford plus bbc had all I needed we were boosting with Isuzu box truck turbos back in 1997 a vortech supercharger bolted to a bbc now that engine had trw forged pistons factory ported oval port cylinder heads a forged I think lunati crank brodix single plain and blow threw carb we made the bowls for it berry grant was the go to back then so was Mallory msd was a norm that full sheet metal 70 chevelle was known in the streets back in those days we didn't run our cars on the track unless it was a closed rental which did not happen much if we went to the track we would go to the one that only showed 60 ft and ¼ times we never ran ⅛th mile there was not much of it in our area we had one track that would run ⅛ races from time to time dependent on who was showing up not enough shut down .we liked the big end pull I still prefer the ¼ . I will tell you this as well I love the rotary engine my first time ever hearing and seeing a Mazda GLC, or Datsun fast back,Toyota starlet,Mazda rx7. Was a war on my 13 yr old emotional roller-coaster mind the sound of a peripheral port 12A in a Toyota starlet with a prostock aluminum strutted wing off the top back hatch when it started at that time I had not known what a rotary was I LITTERALLY ran to the pits I had to see what was making this ear piercing BRAAP ,BRAAAP, BRAAAAP. idling .then what sounded like the space shuttle on return from space sonic boom . I COULD GO ON FOR DAYS ABOUT THIS AND THAT WHY I BUILD WHAT I BUILD AND PREFER THERE IS NO THIS TO THAT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT IT IS WHAT YOU PREFER AND CAN AFFORD I HAVE BUILT A LS1 FOR MYSELF I HAVE BUILT MANY LS ENGINES FOR CUSTOMERS IN ALL SHAPES AND SIZES AS WELL AS FORDS AND CHRYSLERS EVEN BUICKS OLDS AND PONTAICS I HAVE OWNED A COUPLE LS POWERED PERSONAL CARS ALL BECAUSE MY FAVORITE BODY AND STILL TODAY THE MEANEST LOOKING CAR BUILT IS A PONTIAC FIREHAWK 4TH GEN T TOP CAR THAT IS MY FAVORITE LOOKING PLATFORM MY FIRST EXP WITH THE 4TH GEN WAS MY MOMS BRAND NEW OFF THE SHOW ROOM FLOOR CHEVY CAMARO SS 1995 WITH THE GENERAL MOTORS PERFORMANCE PACKAGE OFFERED BUY THE DEALERSHIP WITH GM PERFORMANCE parts HEADERS EXAUST CAMSHAFT INTAKE THAT WAS PURCHASED NEW WITH 3 MILES ON IT HAD A LOPPY IDLE WAS FAST AS hell FOR ITS TIME 1N 1995 A SHOWROOM FLOOR BOUGHT LOW 12 SECOND CAR WAS FUKING FAST.
I thought Air Flow Research was the first to do an Aluminium cylinder head commercially? I have an old B&W magazine advert I can send you if you want. The great thing I like when fitting an SBC, is you are taking part in over 70 years of American automotive history
AFR may have been the first. I just referenced Brodix since that is the brand heads that Grubbworm is using.
I know they were the first to make cnc heads available to the masses. Warren Brownfield started the company back in the 60s I believe and may be the man behind the flow bench also. Brownfield evolved into AFR in the 80s when Ken Sterling came along I believe.
Thank You for taking time to share your wisdom and insights. I've been enjoying your racing efforts for some time now and it is very impressive indeed. Look forward to continued success and good ol' fashioned ass whoopin.
i remember reading about rivalries between SBC people and LS people in magazines way back in the mid 2000s, when people were getting similar power out of them. i recall a few of these points being brought up, seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same!
372 destroked 400sbc with fifd 2650 efi of corse.. loved the sbc's for decades and like alot of others still build them because they sound much better than LS
At the end of the day, if I had to cash to build my dream tubo Drag Race combo, depending on the vehicle, I would go big bore/short stroke aluminum block BBC all day long. Just something that could last an entire season with little maintenance and didn't ever have to work hard to the point of being run on the ragged edge every pass. Something like a 454 (4" Stroke), but with a 4.5" bore, so 509 CID or something, or de-stroked 540. Replace bearings (and maybe Rods) at the end of the season and call it a day. Unfortunately, BBC is a Club that is out of reach of many, due to the price of entry and completion of a decent combo.
Ls has better cam architecture also heads are very nice in stock form
Why not use the baby LT1 block more material between them top head bolt holes with smaller bore maybe less cracking ???
Small mains have slower bearing speed so you can turn higher RPM's, just need a good crank.
it doesnt need to be argued the sbc has more support than all other engines today.. it is a fact! it had over 50 years of design and development. companies built around supporting the gen1 sbc. edelbrock, harland sharp. brodix, lunati, brownfield (now known as airflow research, aka afr) accel, offenhouser,and so many others it would take a paragraph just to name them.
Thanks for sharing man. A lot of knowledge!
Would like to see a side by side comparison with the bbc and the sbc/lt1. Informative videos are so hard to find on TH-cam. Thank you for posting. Subscribed 🤘🏼
SBC shortblock not as strong as BBC short block.
BBC valve train not as good at high RPM as SBC valve train.
Bigblock has most power potential. Not a secret. They are hard to beat.
Bigblock Chevys are best.
Both engines are very good in their own right.
Check Steve Morris raceing. Awesome HP.
Mike
Ps:
Very good video.
It amazes me that you didn’t say a single thing about gasket technology . I have a tall deck Iron Eagle combo with twins and a stock block LC9 combo in two different cars and it’s night and day with sealing the two motors. Making intake gaskets every time and ultra black and right stuff all over . All the little issues with making all the custom changes to make the SBC a rocket block . I like them both and my SBC is a gangster but man is the LS stuff nice to work on . I liked
The video a lot and you have me second guessing my 2000hp build . Maybe a SB2 .. aftermarket block vs aftermarket block . Head stud lay out , main stud size and journal size are the main advantages I see of the SBC . But the heads.. and the glue😂. What do you think an aluminum Brodix block will live reliably till?
The LS for sure has better, neater, gaskets. Then GM went and screwed the gen 5 up by not even using gaskets lol.
Brodix seemed to think their solid cast block would support 2500 when I asked about it a while back. I've never built one, but they referenced Chuck from Street Outlaws and using one with great success lol.
Big fan of Grumbworm got a close look at it at the track one day I couldent belive it wasnt ls lol but was flying no matter what that old dog lt1 still gets down lol , But his ponts are very valid and detailed alot of thought in his build and use. Im just a plain ole chevy guy hell ill take a 305 and spray the hell out of it
Make more videos bud. These are great!
Turbo John is one of very few running a sbc and going fast, who is also sharing his knowledge!
Negative sir! There are plenty in racing period that use the sbc platform vs just turbojohn who runs no prep pretty much only and others that run a sbc vs a ls platform engine in prepped racing and or bracket racing.
I guess that Billy the Kid with Street Racing Channel and Old Man's Garage are just chopped liver huh?
The chicken Hawk has a sbc. There still every where.
Jimmy dale still running sbc too
Src running 1600 hp through a 380 something sbc
I really wish the acronym sbe wasn’t used for stock bottom end. I read a article years ago when they referred to the ls engine as the SBE, being an acronym for “small block evolution”. It work so well when differentiation between small block Chevy,ls, and gen 5 Lt.
Have a 93 f body this is good info thank you
As a complete pinecone, one of the only short comings i knew of, especially with higher egts in turbo applications, is the siamese exhaust port. Seen many complan of the issues they cause. Is there anything you can you can do to mitigate the heat build up there ?
*Hey Jonathan, since you don't seem to mind sharing info about Grubbworm and your thoughts on the SBC/LT1/LS Topic* , could I ask your thoughts on Ignition Firing Order ? Do you run Grubbworm's LT with the old school firing order ? The 'middle child' 4/7 swap ? or the newer LS 4-3/7-2 swap ? While I am a 3-digit HP LS fanboy, they still sound like crap and still love big dollar SBC's. With everyone grinding special order cams for near-shelf pricing, or only $100 more, would you call someone dumb for wanting their mid-3-digit LS 'Daily Summer Cruiser' saddled with a 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 custom cam / SBC firing order ?
Also, I have been listening to some SBC Racing Engine builders talk recently (boys from your neck of the woods actually) and all have essentially said that the SBC cam core, in terms of stability, can be further helped by spec'ing more tame cams and making up for lift (and the additional small amount of duration) using greater than 1.5:1 Rockers, essentially saying, to throw as much rocker arm ratio at the motor as can be accommodated by the heads/valvetrain etc. I would love to hear your thoughts, as I am not sure you have ever talked about SBC/LT1 Rocker Ratio and your experiences compared to the 1.7:1 LS vs 1.5:1 older stuff before. Just an idea for a new video if you have time to chat. thanks again for all of the info.
The Australian pro stock class runs a traditional small block architecture, 400 cubic inch and with the heads developed for them they're making 1100 horsepower naturally aspirated. Just goes to show if you put a 14° head on a traditional small block there's Great-Power potential.
I learned a lot!!! Thanks for the awesome video!
The condensed version for the short attention span plagued young’uns: The Gen 1/2 SBC surpasses the LS in pretty much every respect unless you’re running a lower hp/low buck combo. The end.
I love sbc but my only concern is what's the block limits of a 69dz302. I stroked it to a 360ci Forged rotating assembly main girdle studs brodix heads coil on plug port injection. Basically take all the good new tech of a ls an put it on a sbc.
Interesting I’m about to pull an sbc in favor for LS with the idea of making a 1000 plus. Seems a heck of a lot easier to make that with an LS.
That being said I already have a set of AFR 227 heads and from what I can tell it’s still cheaper to go Ls.
What am I missing?
Good video.. I’d still like to test the thrust bearing issue you speak of though. 6 cylinders pushing against the back 2 cylinders during the “load” would cause the front two two twist more than the second than the third to the back cylinders. I could see the load actually being spread more even . There will be some flex yes at the back of the crank but I’d prefer the back and front to twist and do it evenly than the crank twisting in a long manner if that makes sense. Twist a short piece of rope then twist a long rope.. which one turns and knots up?
I’m building 2 engines lm4 all aluminum and a stroked 350 sbc I will find out which one runs the best and lasts the longest both will be on 88MM turbo
I was 4 in 1987 handing my dad wrenches watching him build 700hp sbc for late model car.
Seen an all stock 98 350 with 240k miles .strapped with a turbo kit with a waste gate spring provided with the kit. Made 640 HP and 600+ torque they where freaking out because they just thought o it's 5-7 psi spring. Gotta be weary of them eBay kits lol some are set to kill.
Great video! Thanks for sharing
Video was awesome good job man keep up the good work
Thanks for sharing...
Don’t get why people get in such a tizzy over it. Gen 5 LT, LS, SBC, they’re all just a small block Chevrolet engine. At least they’re all Chevy’s.
I'm 22 trying to get my TH-cam channel off the ground, I custom built a 6.0 LS for my El Camino cuz I wanted to do something new (been doing SBC BBC since I was 8) now after blowing tons of money and multiple transmissions, I wish I built a big block lol
I’m looking at cams for an LT1 in a 1996 Z28 to go with a set of trick flow 185 heads. It’s going to be running a ported stock intake, torqhead 24x setup, 1.6 scorpion roller rockers, long tubes, and 3” duals. Y’all’s website is acting up tonight but I think im going to go with one of the tick performance cams. What do you recommend for fun little street rod? I want good midrange power and a nice little chop at idle.
Something with a 206-210 close angle cam would do you good basically give you a good jump all the way around with very little loss of any.
Can you make a video on the Motown LS/SBC block. They are talked about much but touted to be the best of both worlds.
Thanks for all the insight. You run a filled block do you run the heads dry also ? Heard turbo John was cracking heads running totally dry setup ? I wanna go all dry setup but afraid of cracking heads. Running AFR heads now
I have solid casting heads. They have no water jackets. I haven't cracked one yet.
Fantastic content, thank you!!
Awesome video. Grubb Worm is a bad car. I have a 96 Z28 6 speed with 117k miles perfect interior all motor 483hp LT1 on SS 17in wheels and lowered. The guys in their 20s are all like it’s not a LS so who cares. I’m 41 guys my age live the car. I’d never put or get a Fbody with a LS. I’m not a catfish front end fan. Anyone that says the LS is better in a Fbody I send them right to Grubb Worm videos. I put the Torque Head OptiSpark conversion on the car and it’s fine you can tune it like any other car. Tick Performance is the best with LT1 stuff for sure and Grubby is the baddest 4th gen stick car around and ever in my opinion.
But lets talk about the gen5 lt engines. I do believe the L8T 6.6 will muster what you have done with gen2 lt1. Gm fixed there week deck design the ls had on on the gen 5 lt engines. Scoggin dicky has already built a 2000+hp L8T using its factory crank. What you think about the strength of the LT4 and L8T John
Look at the weight of that block! And it came factory with a forged crank and rods, still not many head fasteners, though.
And that is dyno horsepower. Let's see it run a race season.
Same issues
Huge difference between dyno and it surviving a whole season.
@@jacksonwalton7404 That's what I said.
Boss can ask stupid question, would it be good idea to run longer studs threaded deeper into expoxy block fill❓🚩
Factory ls blocks are stronger then sbc so if your going under 1500 stock ls is great but above that you need an aftermarket block
@jacompitition I know currently your sbc(lt1) is a filled block, but do the same positive characteristics of the sbc(lt1) over LS stay true when comparing the two as street cars with water cooled blocks?
Could you cover what it takes for the driveline to hold the insanity you but grubb through?
I will for sure be doing some adjustable clutch tech in upcoming videos. That's the main piece that keeps everything alive.
Like the Square Body Mafia says, "we don't need no stinkin' computers".
One thing I hate about ls engines is they are so sharp I always cut my hands working on them never with a sbc
Great video great content 💪 gonna be a great channel
You have some good and proven points however the vast majority of people are trying to make 500 hp and that is easily achieved with a sbe cam and a few other aftermarket parts to make that with a stock 350 you really have to spent money in the heads intake distributor rod bolt ring gap and hope the pistons don’t explode under the pressure so I agree with you on the power level
Yes, LS is great for budget hp as noted. But the gen 2 sbc/LT is no slouch. I have a street car 96 SS that made 424 rwhp through a 12 bolt on ET streets. Stock bottom end, opti, original pcm i tuned with LT1 edit, etc. It has a Tick shelf cam (that I spec'd lol), some mildly hand ported stock heads, with stock 1.94/1.50 valves. Stock intake manifold hand ported to match. The LT stuff is really only 20 hp or so lower than LS1 stuff mod for mod, and stock for stock, and will pretty easily out perform similarly molded 5.3's.
I actually think a sbc 400 block is easier to get 500 hp from.
Question. You are correct on the LS/LT heads. Are the mod motors/coyote and gen3 Hemi the same way with cylinder pressure and leaking head gaskets? They have the same 4 bolt per cylinder pattern i do believe.
I can't really say how the Coyote or later hemi stuff holds up. Smaller engines with 4 bolt per cylinder design likely have less distance from fastener to fastener... and of course how rigid the head itself is can make a big difference. Even a big nasty billet Hemi like a promod would run has 4 bolt per cylinder I believe.... but that's with a solid billet head and 9/16" fasteners.
They do, Coyotes start wrecking sleeves, Gen 3 Hemis have thin crowned pistons. Although the blocks on all three engines are cross bolted, 6 bolt main style, the 4 bolts per cylinder let them down. The heads on all three flow a ton, but the Coyote is excessively complicated and more expensive to modify. The Gen 3 Hemi is, in my opinion, a variation of the LS/LT. Bore spacing and other things are really close
@@hoost3056Try again... Absolutely NO Ford has head gasket sealing issued like an LS which there is no cure for... Sleaving a Coyote cures any problems with the cylinder. Good luck making 3000 reliable horsepower with an LS in ANY form... They aren't overly complicated in any way just more advanced technology... Some folks just lack enough brain cells to work on anything that isn't OHV... If a chicken had hands it could build an LS, 😂😂😂
The place in the hotrod ls world is for the millions of 6.0 square port with 300cfm heads. We pay $500 for these core motors. They will make 420whp on a dynojet with around 230ish at 50 with a factory pistons at 9.6:1cr A vortec 350 core with a much bigger cam is lucky to make 300whp dynojet.
Yep, LS is great for low budget bang for your buck when not much power is the goal. Fwiw, I have a 96 SS Camaro that made 424 rwhp with some mild hand port work on the stock heads and intake and a 241/245 cam. SBE. They can make great power also, with the right parts.
I don't know about square port 6.0's for $500 though. I bought one a few years ago for my 06 1500 truck for $1750 lol.
@@JACompetitionSBE lt1 and a 241/243 cam... what kind of rpm are you turning with them rods😂...
You are good at this stuff bro!
I personally went with a gen 1 SBC simply because it’s what I am most familiar with.
I do have a Dart Little M block and AFR heads. At what HP level, or boost level should I start having to worry about my MLS head gaskets blowing out?
I should also add that I went old school on my thought process and have only 8.3:1 compression.
When I end up having to go through it, I will probably add top fuel hoops and a bit more compression.
Can’t really argue with his experience
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 what are the odds
Drinking game: Drink every time he says "small block Chevy."
(All jokes - i mean no harm by this. Awesome video!)
Love ❤ Grub Worm keep stock block👍 Forever
I use to be a LS fanboy untill i argued with Johnathan atkins.. its not rocket science and it makes sence why the sbc gen2 lt1 is a strongest stock block then the LS. The Grubworm runs in field of cars that mostoy have aftermarket block LS engines and they still struggle to keep there ls engines together to beat the stock block sbc lt1.
Some would say the smaller the main journal the less bearing speed you have, less surface area for a bearing to grab, back in the day the bigger the better was the thinking and was really relying on oil film.
You're correct, but the bigger the better (to a point) still applies at extreme power levels. The smaller the main, the more likely to flex the crank becomes.
Some old engines had huge mains, like Pontiac 400's and 455's. The later years had the largest cranks I believe, because those years had went from forged 'steel' cranks to weaker cast iron material.
The Dart Next2 option steps the LS engine up from the standard main diameter to that of a Cleveland Ford for the strongest possible crank which is usefull when running longer strokes, 4" and greater IMO.
What main caps are you using? And do you feel a need for valley girdles on the higher hp stock block stuff
Would love a video about all of this vs the 2JZ😁
You won’t get it because it doesn’t compare! 2JZ has been pushed by the LGBT community for years. It just doesn’t have the balls!
Would you run a sbc or ls on a roadcourse and autocross setup? Im building a 1970 corvette protruding for track and autocross. Looking for all aluminum 500 crank hp
I'd run an LS for the aluminum block at that power level. A pretty simple cammed LS3 can make 500 hp.
Great video thx
Sbc lt1 trying to build 1 now what should i do to run boost
This is why I love seeing what guys come up with on the CNC for Billet Blocks, such as Steve Morris' SML. Standard Deck LS, all external dimensions/mounting/accessories, but Billet Heads (required with block) to match, with relocated 6 studs per cylinder @ 1/2" , BBC cam tunnel, Splayed Main Caps, Cleveland Mains Billet Crankshaft etc. A 400 or 427 CID 3500+HP package on Turbos, as with any other Turbo engine, that can make Grocery runs as easily as Passes at the Strip, as the block and heads are fully water cooled as well (but dry decked).....and doesn't spit out head gaskets. Unfortunately, out of reach financially for the average person. Along with the price, the other downside is he won't sell a bare block w/heads.... he will only sell it as a complete engine, Billet Intake to Dry Sump Pan and it's close to the 100k USD price range I believe.....Standard 4.125" Bores, but you do get to choose the crankshaft stroke, so 400 or 427 (3.750" or 4.00") as of now. I am sure that 388's (3.622) will be a future choice.
Do you have problems with head studs and the filler on the gen 1 and 2 since all gen 1 go into the water and gen 2 all but the top 4 go into water or in this case into filler? How do you work the filler around the head studs? Never filled one so just curious.
I just screw some bolts into the deck that have the same reach as the studs, then fill the block. Once the filler starts to set up, which is only a few minutes with Rok Block, I screw those bolts out.
I have 2 4 bolt mains blocks