Ms Lucas has been an essential, if sadly overlooked member of Parliament. How Westminster imagines it is effectively functioning without at least fifty more people like her is beyond me.
I had the privilege of hearing Caroline Lucas speaking with Hugh Fearnley Wittingstall a few years ago, and what stayed with me was how obviously genuine she is in her beliefs and her aspirations for society, our country and our planet. The contrast between her and the charlatans purporting to govern us at the moment couldn't be more stark. We need more like her.
But she will be more free afterwards to Influence people by her sheer eloquent, frank reasoning and her force of Heart! She is a naturally evolved human being! But yes, we need more evolved human within the HOP!
She’s also my MP and I have felt so privileged that she has been my parliamentary representative. Truly a breath of fresh air in the stagnant ranks of Westminster.
Absolute legend .. Caroline Lucas ( and The Green Party) gave me something to believe in Politically in 2015 when all other parties had failed. I have been voting Green ever since.
I am politically homeless but Caroline makes a very compelling case. I was aware of the green Party and Caroline, but knew little about their policies and views. Hearing Caroline speak was truly a breath of fresh air, as specially her impassioned views on England and the Idea of greater self determination for England. I have asked myself for years Why England was the only Nation that never got it's own Assembly during devolution. I had no idea any politician was even asking that question..... Until now.
@@SSMMTTEE John Prescott was, and still is, a big advocate for regional assemblies but he was largely sidelined by Blair and Brown during the devolution process.
@@Rachel_M_Indeed, and part of the other issue is nobody could agree how England might be divided, you could just never please everyone - in the end Labour gave up because they just didn’t want to have the political fight on it. I doubt Starmer would do loads different.
I would love to see Caroline and Rory talk through everything they disagree on in real depth. I wonder if that would bring the best of both of you. Thank you Caroline for everything you've done!!!
I learned the basics of PR when I was doing my O level Economics in the late 1970s. Wherever my views have gone on any other subject I’ve not wavered in all that time on the need to replace first past the post. Great interview, Caroline is so impressive. It is a pity that her party are so often confused.
It was really shocking to hear the discussion on MP's having to hurriedly vote on things they don't understand and amendments not being able to be heard because voting is carried out in such an antiquated way. And equally shocking, just like the discussion on electoral reform, to see how the two main parties will not want to budge on changing this because it would weaken their power.
Great interview. Caroline is the best Prime Minister we'll never have. As somebody very much on the left I would love to see the Greens grow in popularity & get more MP's elected. If that happens & they stand a realistic chance of forming a government not only will I vote for them but I might join & become an active member. Of course we badly need PR for that.
This is easily one of your best interviews - talking on pride, I could see myself being proud of being a Brit/Englishman again after 20 years of the ideals discussed here. We need many more people of Ms. Lucas' calibre & indeed more good faith, cross-party coming together to solve things, not arguments about whose faults they are.
A genune refreshing thinker and speaker. We need more like her in a representative democracy, under proportional representation. And a return to the EU.
She comes across as so knowledgeable and understanding. When she stands up in parliament to speak, she contributes and adds to the discussion, certainly for those of us sitting at home, if not for the controlled by the whip of the larger parties!
"We're a bit apathetic about protest now." says Alastair. Hmm, I remember over a million people taking to the streets to protest against the invasion of Iraq, Alastair and what happened? Did you listen?
My thoughts exactly. THE single biggest street protest the UK had ever seen. Campbell has selective amnesia on many things. He's very engaging on this podcast, but wasn't always so; he was almost as toxic as Cummings in his previous life.
@@nlewin5072 Protests do not and should not decide government policy. A vocal minority - and the Iraq protesters were, no matter how big the protest was, a very vocal MINORITY of people - don't determine government policy. The only thing worse than government by referendum is government by kowtowing to activist protesters.
With regard to Rory's comment about Quebec referendums, there were two... the first was in 1980 and the second was in 1995. They were 15 years apart, which is shorter than what most people would consider a "generation," but they weren't happening every 2 or 3 years either. The 1995 referendum was very close and many people felt that the question was confusing and ambiguous. After that, the Chrétien government passed the "Clarity Act," which put some federal rules around how Quebec independence referendums should be conducted in the future. Since then, no Quebec government has sought to hold another referendum, although there are still parties promoting independence.
There was a referendum in 1992 on the Charlottetown Accord which could have declared Quebec a "Distinct society" (not quite referendum on full-sovereignty but still about Quebec self-government). Regardless of the detail, the point is that a referendum should settle an issue and provide political stability. Having two and a half referendums on the same political issue in the space of 15 years is a waste of political capital.
Caroline Lucas is a joy to hear. Though she's wrong about her upbringing being 'normal' - it was middle-class - I love her views on England. It's worth emphasising that the UK is not a union of equal countries: rather, England has a uniquely colonialist history that still needs to be fully faced. And in common with other colonialists, we are not as proud or even aware of our culture as a colonised people. This work is urgently needed in order to face the threat of Moscovite Russia and Han China rationally and effectively.
She described how dysfunctional the British parliament is, but it would have been nice to hear her compare the 2 parliaments she has served on, European and British parliaments: The voting system, the way to build consensus, the quality of debate and so on. I think it would have been very enlightening! (and embarrassing for UK).
Fascinating Caroline. You swept the floor with A.C. His lack of push back was significant. Rory’s a good guy and despite their differences he came out this piece with dignity
Absolutely wonderful politician and wonderful person. I'll admit I was sad and a bit upset as Rory insinuates some may be when she announced her retirement from Westminster, but I can also understand her private personal wishes to leave, as well as a desire to not allow the green party to be dominated by and seen as just her, and instead allow our younger newer politicians to carry the green party legacy. Some good questions from Rory though, even if I fully disagree with what he was getting at, I enjoyed seeing Caroline's rebuttals!
Today's chat was great thank you, PR appears to be the step on the journey for the NEW and improved United Kingdom. 'British' politics is broken. What did Albert E say about madness? Do the same thing over again and expect a different outcome. The Tories won't vote for it, so the next Labour government needs to be radical for the sake of Uniting the Kingdom. PR appears to be a fairer system.
I'd vote for her as PM in a heartbeat. Yes taking on pro war stances might get you more right wing support but it just means you are throwing away your own morals of not wanting more war crimes as seen by Britains support of Saudi Arabia & Israel.
Well done for talking all over Caroline Lucas Rory. Asking her about her views on Scotland and just go at the idea rather than allowing her to respond.
Agree, I found Rory’s manner at times during this interview quite painful to listen to; overbearing, mansplainy and rude. Spoiled what was mainly a brilliant episode.
@@SSMMTTEE Wow what an insight!! Is it weak in your eyes because she is a woman? Or because you don't like it? Is that why it's a fetishisation too? Could it be that she thinks it's a better course to take? Guess we will never know as she didn't get a chance to unpack it for being talked over.
Caroline Lucas is a national treasure. Her steadfast, diligent , wise parliamentary work and personal integrity should be the norm. Sadly for democracy and citizens,, it’s the exception. She must be weary of standing tall, alone and for so long, as she did. I fully understand she needs time to sit down and take care of herself. She has my heartfelt gratitude, respect and appreciation.
If, and it's a big if, I've understood Caroline properly, it's the old anecdote that if a Welsh person is proud to be Welsh they are admirable. If a Scot is proud to be Scottish they are admirable. But if an English person is proud to be English then they are racist. I admire all three.
Welsh pride doesn't extend to "Bluddy Furriners," mentality. That's the difference. The Celtic nations just tend to be more accepting. See an English flag and it's fair enough to assume they are 'little Ingerlanders'.
Thank you Both for this superb and very appropriate conversation which should become the subject of a series of Citizens Assemblies which can advice a Labour Government which shows no inspiration on the subjects that have been discussed tonight - thank you again and congratulations - I am a democratic socialist!
I just wonder what took Bernie Sanders & Jeremy Corbyn so long. If they got power 20 years ago when they were younger and maybe a bit more charismatic the world might be a very different place. Young voters need a young progressive leader. Obama & Blair promised so much but delivered so little.
Fascinating discussion. Rory the Tory versus Campbell the once labour spin doctor two fascinating individuals free to talk outside the Westminster straightjacket that would have held Rory in check. They both come from very different backgrounds and philosophy's and yet often talk the same language. How refreshing it would be to run a parliamentary system without whips and with every M.P. having a free vote on every piece of legislation. Today's talk with Caroline Lucas equally fascinating in so many ways.
I don't know what Rory means about Canada having referendums every 3-4 years. The last referendum we had was in 1995. And here's only been two in total.
I agree with the first point Caroline in the intro. In 2015, just over one million people voted for the Green Party and they got just one MP, at the same election, UKIP got just under 4 million votes and got one MP also. Meanwhile, Sin Fein got 4 seats on 175,000 and the SNP 56 seats on 1.4 million votes. If it had been a straight proportional representational election, the Greens would have 25 seats and UKIP 82. The SNP would have had 30 seats and Sinn Fein just one. In fact, Caroline, if you look at the last few elections - back to Blair's victory in 1997 - in a straight proportional system, it is likely that coalitions of the centre right would have emerged as the government in most cases. I fully accept that current polling suggests at the next election, parties of the centre left/left will win a crushing victory. So, I agree, let's have some form of PR. Bring it on, I believe in a fair electoral system, over my adult life (now in my early 60s) the UK would have had something approaching one nation Toryism for most of the past 40 years and most of the loony ideas of the hard left would have been defeated in all democratic votes.
In Germany, the method of voting is known as a mixed-member proportional representation system.If it were introduced ,would do away with with the selection of candidates which gives a lot of power to the two respective Central Offices to control the political agenda for both main parties and the types of candidates which are presented. Which is why we won't get it. It would be like a turkey voting for Christmas and be much more democratic.
To me, Caroline is the epitome of feminine strength. I so wish that she had power; feminine power, which is- power with (rather than power over). May many many more Carolines (women and men!) follow her 💚
Wouldn't it be nice to hear such interviews on this podcast with each of the Green Party MP candidates? CL is a legend, however, I think we also need to know more about the next generation stepping up to the ballot.
The thing about growing the global economy is who, or what, will buy my sweet red roses. Who will buy our wares? If we just put a lot more effort into speeding up the extraction and trade of resources the only people who can benefit from it are those that are speculating on the value of those resources. We need stability, not growth. A sacrosanct minimum quality of life for all - which needs us to think hard about what we actually need to make us feel content. Have we ever just made contentment our goal? The two areas where we can keep expanding without limit is a: outer space and b: our knowledge and understanding. We are, currently at least, locked down on this miraculous ball. We've been extracting the resources that were accumulated long before we were able to make use of them. We've been changing them. Not destroying them - just changing them. Changing them in ways that make our lives ever more precarious. For example - the plastics now in our environment and in our oceans. Why haven't we gotten to work trying to figure out how to gather them all up and give them a new use? If there was profit in it - maybe somebody would make it so that environmental plastics weren't the end point. They'd be a resource, too. We should never have seen plastic as the perfect packaging.. I mean - you buy bananas (for example) and even though nobody eats banana skins they come in plastic packaging and that packaging will still be plastic (albeit now unused waste) long after our own atoms have become bananas (or something else that grows and will, probably, end up wrapped in plastic). The less energy is used to remove something from entropy - the less energy it takes for something to return to it. We could be creating the most edifying art and, perhaps, building things that will benefit us for centuries.. No, plastic forks. The plastic fork is the icon of the eternal battle between existence and entropy.
I voted for PR in the referendum we were allowed. It is hard to imagine either of the main parties giving us the chance again and easy to imagine the excuses people made last time for voting against it, mainly that nothing would get done with nobody in overall power. People hammer Nick Clegg and scoff at the coalition but imagine the Tories untempered right from the start. Would that the Tories had never been given the exclusive licence to destroy the country over the time they've been in power.
A thing that the 'progressive' left almost always get wrong - and this includes application to discussions about the monarchy - is the advantage of conserving things the way they are unless you (a) *really* know the reasons why they are this way in the first place (the reasons for previously made choices might be more complex than they seem at first); (b) know the benefits (if any) that stem from keeping with the status quo; and (c) are sure of the *net* benefits of changing the status quo *and* have guarded as best you can, in proposing and making changes, against unintended and unwanted consequences.
Increased women’s rights around the world, are thankfully putting the skids on runaway birth rates, giving women around the world more freedoms, and as a bonus, giving humans cat in hell’s chance of getting out of this ecological crisis. Capitalism is getting nervous about this. Lower birth rates, means labour markets don’t suffer from over supply issues, meaning workers will have increasing confidence to assert their rights through collective bargaining, at capital’s expense. Capital interests in their publications, are pushing the idea of an ‘underpopulation crisis’. And demanding push backs against women’s rights. I wonder why….
Refreshing hearing a politician that is so well spoken and does not need sensational statements to get attention. Sad we are losing someone like that, we need more.
Rory’s right to raise the point that had she not positioned herself quite so far to the left she would have made a much bigger impact in her career - a lesson from the Greens in Germany. A shame.
We need pr to bring the views of far right and far left into the light where they can be debated, defeated and ultimately reconciled. This argument that it would give reform seats shouldn't scare people, it will give the people it represents a political home where they'll have nowhere to hide.
Hang on, are you saying that Scotland is a province and not a country that joined a union Rory? Last time I checked, Catalonia and Texas were states/provinces in a country, not a country within a union. I am baffled by your choice of words.
What I found interesting about this conversation is that both Rory and Alistair completely missed the point. Their views are so conditioned by distinctions of 'left and right' that they were sideswiped. They were trying to pigeonhole Caroline into shades of traditional versus progressive left when in fact she is neither red nor blue but Green.
Regarding media ownership, the traditional newspaper, TV and radio landscape has of course been changed hugely by the internet and social media platforms. In this respect, there's a very strong case to be made for the establishment of publicly-owned and high-quality competitor alternatives to at least some of the privately-owned social media platforms. The combined financial and expertise resources available to democratically-elected governments is easily sufficient for the successful achievement of this objective.
I,m with you Rory on ‘united kingdom’ and the Scottish issues.It is a bit more complicated than Caroline argues. Might be even more important in relation to future Energy debate, with possible hydro electric developments and decline of N Sea oil. She insists we have to decarbonise and have more renewables and not trash the environment, but makes absolutely no reference to how the associated demands on mining will result in massive 10 fold increase in land use and herald a mining economy. And those ‘renewables’ ( solar and turbines ) have a defined shelf life before they have to be replaced. Yes Rory, the globe has limited resources. Have the Greens have done the maths on the quantities of copper, sand, rare earth minerals, with 1000 fold increase in materials extraction & yet how these have moved us to ever increasing energy consumption? She was in praise of the German Greens, but no mention how they have returned to coal for their baseload energy in view of their Dunkelflaute experience with wind and solar. And of course, none of this discussed by any of our politicians….
I will miss her contributions to Parliament terribly. She never took part in culture wars like the Tories and DUP. A significant loss to parliament. Her successor as leader of the Greens is fantastic and I’m sure Ms Lucas is mentoring her well, and giving her space to be her own type of leader.
The reason the Greens aren't sweeping up many, many more seats, Rory, is lack of PR. We've had decades of the centre pretending to be the sensible folk and look at where that has gotten us. It's time for change- radical change.
The more I see and hear of the practises of parliament and politics in the UK the more convinced I become that my country of Wales only has a future as a fully independent nation (outside the current UK) as defined by United Nations. Wales can do much better deciding its own future without being dragged in the opposite direct by leaders we never voted for and will never do in the future. As an independent nation we can have PR, we can invest for our priorities, join the EU. There would have been no Brexit without England's Tories. I expect Scotland feels the same.
I always enjoy Rory and Alastair and thought Caroline was excellent- am sure she will be sadly missed in parliament. As a Scot I am uncomfortable with Rory's attitude to a further referendum and the idea that we had a choice and we made it and that's that. We had no idea that less than 2 years later we would be taken out of the EU, indeed one of the key arguments against independence was that we would lose access to the single market. And in the aftermath of the scottish referendum a 'vow' was made by the 3 main leaders in Westminster to strengthen Scotland's place in the union and guarantee its powers. That vow rings hollow now after a decade of helplessly watching the damage inflicted by Westminster. We didn't vote for the Tories and we didn't vote for Brexit, but we were powerless to stop either. So from my point of view, the EU referendum and everything that happened after invalidates the Scottish referendum, because it was fought on a lie. And same goes for the EU referendum, I would hold both votes again and hope for different results in both.
Anyone have a link to that Hansard she mentions where MPs are arguing against being given information which would give them the faintest idea of what they are voting on?
I worry that the now what could be called "legacy MPs" and others now stepping down from Red,Green,Blue or Yellow are too ready to dismiss "populist" platforms and candidates. The word populist is used as if there's a bad smell and yet, those with new, what might be considered as more radical views, appear to be the ones gaining momentum.
The lady is passionate; it does not mean that she always is right! PR sucks, "take a tip from one who's tried". France was almost ungovernable during the Fourth Republic years; Israel now being in the hands of extremist parties can be attributed to integral PR; the EU parliament is full PR, but is does not have governing power: the EU Council does. The notion that PR is "fairer" is not the point: an electoral system primary goal is to achieve a governing majority. FPTP is the best for that; Coalition governments from PR are hard to assemble and often prove hamstrung. Only countries with a long tradition of compromise policies can make PR work; that certainly is not the case of Britain (or France for that matter)!
Rate of growth is ENTIRELY dependent on the start point. Actual growth might be exactly the same in two economies but the rate of growth completely different.
Regarding the question about an Independent Scotland. Greenland can by the Greenland homerule act of 21. June 2009 chose to be Independent of Denmark. So I dont understand Rory Stewards argument
I’m ashamed that I haven’t listened to the impressive Caroline Lucas before. I enjoyed the debate - sensible people articulating opposing arguments with intelligence and respect. She is a loss to UK politics.
As you both point out the Brexit referendum debunked the idea that Britain had lost it's sovereignty by membership of the EU. How then can you deny Scotland as a sovereign nation the ability to have a referendum whenever it chooses ?
I think the nearest thing to an epiphany in politics that I have was when I first read about Stalin the Great Hero of the left. The guy was worse than Hitler I'd barely ever heard of him except in terms of "wartime ally", "uncle Joe" and a few show trials I thought there were probably only 12 of them. I had no idea That Stalin killed more than Hitler, was worse than Hitler, his activities were kept secret from us at school and by the BBC by the Left, it was all Hitler, Hitler, Hitler! Clearly, Caroline Lucas never read that book because she would not be on that demonstration on Greenham Common.
Ms Lucas has been an essential, if sadly overlooked member of Parliament. How Westminster imagines it is effectively functioning without at least fifty more people like her is beyond me.
The political love of my life!
Well said.
She's wonderfully devoid of ego. I will never understand why voters appear so persistently awed by flamboyance. It's critically dangerous.
I had the privilege of hearing Caroline Lucas speaking with Hugh Fearnley Wittingstall a few years ago, and what stayed with me was how obviously genuine she is in her beliefs and her aspirations for society, our country and our planet. The contrast between her and the charlatans purporting to govern us at the moment couldn't be more stark. We need more like her.
Totally agree
An equal conversation, rather than an interview? Caroline Lucas has been a significant voice of sanity and reason in parliament, and will be missed.
I wish we had more politicians like Caroline! I agree with her 100%.
Really enjoyed this interview. I've always had the greatest respect for Caroline Lucas, we need more people like her in politics.
She's my MP and I am very proud of her, she's wonderful. I'm sad she's going.
I'm not.
But she will be more free afterwards to Influence people by her sheer eloquent, frank reasoning and her force of Heart! She is a naturally evolved human being! But yes, we need more evolved human within the HOP!
@@VaucluseVanguardNo one gives a fuck what you think
She’s also my MP and I have felt so privileged that she has been my parliamentary representative. Truly a breath of fresh air in the stagnant ranks of Westminster.
@@VaucluseVanguard why? Do you feel she will be able to have a higher profile outside of parliament?
Absolute legend .. Caroline Lucas ( and The Green Party) gave me something to believe in Politically in 2015 when all other parties had failed. I have been voting Green ever since.
I am politically homeless but Caroline makes a very compelling case. I was aware of the green Party and Caroline, but knew little about their policies and views.
Hearing Caroline speak was truly a breath of fresh air, as specially her impassioned views on England and the Idea of greater self determination for England.
I have asked myself for years Why England was the only Nation that never got it's own Assembly during devolution.
I had no idea any politician was even asking that question..... Until now.
Cos Newcastle voted against it in the referendum. I wonder what the result would be after the past 14 years
@@Jay_Johnson thank you for that. I didn't know the reason was so specific.
England is too big a part of the UK to have a single devolved assembly in the same way as Scotland and Wales have.
@@SSMMTTEE John Prescott was, and still is, a big advocate for regional assemblies but he was largely sidelined by Blair and Brown during the devolution process.
@@Rachel_M_Indeed, and part of the other issue is nobody could agree how England might be divided, you could just never please everyone - in the end Labour gave up because they just didn’t want to have the political fight on it. I doubt Starmer would do loads different.
She's absolutely outstanding.
Thank you Caroline for your public service. You are intelligent, articulate and principled. Parliament will be the worse for your absence.
Caroline is worth 10s of other MPs in parliament. Steadfast and passionate about the most important causes, year after year.
Fantastic human being
Summed up perfectly in just three words!
I would love to see Caroline and Rory talk through everything they disagree on in real depth. I wonder if that would bring the best of both of you. Thank you Caroline for everything you've done!!!
I love Caroline Lucas but we need about 300 more of her in Parliament.
I learned the basics of PR when I was doing my O level Economics in the late 1970s. Wherever my views have gone on any other subject I’ve not wavered in all that time on the need to replace first past the post.
Great interview, Caroline is so impressive. It is a pity that her party are so often confused.
What an amazing person. The left leaning parties should start to what she says.
A great example of the level of politician the UK could have if it had the guts to introduce PR.
It was really shocking to hear the discussion on MP's having to hurriedly vote on things they don't understand and amendments not being able to be heard because voting is carried out in such an antiquated way. And equally shocking, just like the discussion on electoral reform, to see how the two main parties will not want to budge on changing this because it would weaken their power.
It's the same with proportional representation, or at least that's their fear.
The story of Sarah Woollaston not only shocked me, but angered me deeply.
Great interview. Caroline is the best Prime Minister we'll never have. As somebody very much on the left I would love to see the Greens grow in popularity & get more MP's elected. If that happens & they stand a realistic chance of forming a government not only will I vote for them but I might join & become an active member. Of course we badly need PR for that.
we need more like Caroline :)
This is easily one of your best interviews - talking on pride, I could see myself being proud of being a Brit/Englishman again after 20 years of the ideals discussed here. We need many more people of Ms. Lucas' calibre & indeed more good faith, cross-party coming together to solve things, not arguments about whose faults they are.
Thank you, for a really interesting and thoughtful interview.
the system is utterly unfit for purpose!
Very well analysed, issues of environment by M.P. Caroline Lucas.
A genune refreshing thinker and speaker. We need more like her in a representative democracy, under proportional representation. And a return to the EU.
She comes across as so knowledgeable and understanding. When she stands up in parliament to speak, she contributes and adds to the discussion, certainly for those of us sitting at home, if not for the controlled by the whip of the larger parties!
I'd have really liked to hear what the current green attitudes on NATO and nuclear power are
Fantasticly interesting, unique discussion and debate. Well done, great work. I was enthralled to all ideas and challenges... ❤
"We're a bit apathetic about protest now." says Alastair. Hmm, I remember over a million people taking to the streets to protest against the invasion of Iraq, Alastair and what happened? Did you listen?
My thoughts exactly. THE single biggest street protest the UK had ever seen. Campbell has selective amnesia on many things. He's very engaging on this podcast, but wasn't always so; he was almost as toxic as Cummings in his previous life.
@@nlewin5072 Protests do not and should not decide government policy. A vocal minority - and the Iraq protesters were, no matter how big the protest was, a very vocal MINORITY of people - don't determine government policy. The only thing worse than government by referendum is government by kowtowing to activist protesters.
I love this woman. Outstanding. Great interview guys
With regard to Rory's comment about Quebec referendums, there were two... the first was in 1980 and the second was in 1995. They were 15 years apart, which is shorter than what most people would consider a "generation," but they weren't happening every 2 or 3 years either. The 1995 referendum was very close and many people felt that the question was confusing and ambiguous. After that, the Chrétien government passed the "Clarity Act," which put some federal rules around how Quebec independence referendums should be conducted in the future. Since then, no Quebec government has sought to hold another referendum, although there are still parties promoting independence.
Rory knows best about asolutley everything in detail. Not the first time I notice facts gotten wrong by "the expert".
There was a referendum in 1992 on the Charlottetown Accord which could have declared Quebec a "Distinct society" (not quite referendum on full-sovereignty but still about Quebec self-government).
Regardless of the detail, the point is that a referendum should settle an issue and provide political stability. Having two and a half referendums on the same political issue in the space of 15 years is a waste of political capital.
@@PMMagroGod forbid someone makes a mistake 🙄
Caroline Lucas is a joy to hear. Though she's wrong about her upbringing being 'normal' - it was middle-class - I love her views on England. It's worth emphasising that the UK is not a union of equal countries: rather, England has a uniquely colonialist history that still needs to be fully faced. And in common with other colonialists, we are not as proud or even aware of our culture as a colonised people. This work is urgently needed in order to face the threat of Moscovite Russia and Han China rationally and effectively.
Scotland and Wales colonised much of the world. Don’t kid yourself.
A light of hope in a world of darkness - thank you so so much Caroline!
So glad you’ve done this interview. I’ve been waiting for it to come out ever since you mentioned it in an episode 2 weeks ago!
She described how dysfunctional the British parliament is, but it would have been nice to hear her compare the 2 parliaments she has served on, European and British parliaments: The voting system, the way to build consensus, the quality of debate and so on. I think it would have been very enlightening! (and embarrassing for UK).
Although she didn't say in so many words, I think she was comparing some if her European experience with the processes in Westminster.
What a fantastic interview. Such a loss to the country loosing her as an mp. Loving the podcast guys.
Caroline is so right about Starmer ! Brilliant woman and so undervalued. More people would vote Green if we had PR
Fascinating Caroline. You swept the floor with A.C. His lack of push back was significant. Rory’s a good guy and despite their differences he came out this piece with dignity
Absolutely wonderful politician and wonderful person. I'll admit I was sad and a bit upset as Rory insinuates some may be when she announced her retirement from Westminster, but I can also understand her private personal wishes to leave, as well as a desire to not allow the green party to be dominated by and seen as just her, and instead allow our younger newer politicians to carry the green party legacy.
Some good questions from Rory though, even if I fully disagree with what he was getting at, I enjoyed seeing Caroline's rebuttals!
Today's chat was great thank you, PR appears to be the step on the journey for the NEW and improved United Kingdom. 'British' politics is broken. What did Albert E say about madness? Do the same thing over again and expect a different outcome. The Tories won't vote for it, so the next Labour government needs to be radical for the sake of Uniting the Kingdom. PR appears to be a fairer system.
I'd vote for her as PM in a heartbeat. Yes taking on pro war stances might get you more right wing support but it just means you are throwing away your own morals of not wanting more war crimes as seen by Britains support of Saudi Arabia & Israel.
Well done for talking all over Caroline Lucas Rory. Asking her about her views on Scotland and just go at the idea rather than allowing her to respond.
Agree, I found Rory’s manner at times during this interview quite painful to listen to; overbearing, mansplainy and rude. Spoiled what was mainly a brilliant episode.
She was allowed to respond; he rightly called her out.
@@SSMMTTEE Called her out on what, she never a got a chance to make a point. Good input though 👎
@@k_rez On her fetishisation of Scottish separation. She had her chance to respond. It was weak.
@@SSMMTTEE Wow what an insight!!
Is it weak in your eyes because she is a woman? Or because you don't like it?
Is that why it's a fetishisation too? Could it be that she thinks it's a better course to take?
Guess we will never know as she didn't get a chance to unpack it for being talked over.
Caroline Lucas is a national treasure. Her steadfast, diligent , wise parliamentary work and personal integrity should be the norm. Sadly for democracy and citizens,, it’s the exception. She must be weary of standing tall, alone and for so long, as she did. I fully understand she needs time to sit down and take care of herself. She has my heartfelt gratitude, respect and appreciation.
What a wonderful interview I wish her all the best for the future
As others have said Caroline Lucas will be greatly missed in Parliament. Another really engaging conversation. This channel is addictive.
If, and it's a big if, I've understood Caroline properly, it's the old anecdote that if a Welsh person is proud to be Welsh they are admirable. If a Scot is proud to be Scottish they are admirable. But if an English person is proud to be English then they are racist. I admire all three.
Maybe we both should listen again! I thought she was expressing disagreement with such a view.
Welsh pride doesn't extend to "Bluddy Furriners," mentality. That's the difference. The Celtic nations just tend to be more accepting.
See an English flag and it's fair enough to assume they are 'little Ingerlanders'.
@@jonathanfell688 lol
great show. gets better weeek by week
Thank you Both for this superb and very appropriate conversation which should become the subject of a series of Citizens Assemblies which can advice a Labour Government which shows no inspiration on the subjects that have been discussed tonight - thank you again and congratulations - I am a democratic socialist!
Wow. Just heard the introduction and wanted to hear more. Wish we had at least one politician that could talk like this. Where is Al Gore?
I just wonder what took Bernie Sanders & Jeremy Corbyn so long. If they got power 20 years ago when they were younger and maybe a bit more charismatic the world might be a very different place. Young voters need a young progressive leader. Obama & Blair promised so much but delivered so little.
Fascinating discussion. Rory the Tory versus Campbell the once labour spin doctor two fascinating individuals free to talk outside the Westminster straightjacket that would have held Rory in check. They both come from very different backgrounds and philosophy's and yet often talk the same language. How refreshing it would be to run a parliamentary system without whips and with every M.P. having a free vote on every piece of legislation. Today's talk with Caroline Lucas equally fascinating in so many ways.
Another great presentation.
Thankfully grown up discussion.
What an impressive individual.
Caroline would have made an excellent Prime Minister. Her integrity would have proved to be a blessing to the nation.
I don't know what Rory means about Canada having referendums every 3-4 years. The last referendum we had was in 1995. And here's only been two in total.
I agree with the first point Caroline in the intro. In 2015, just over one million people voted for the Green Party and they got just one MP, at the same election, UKIP got just under 4 million votes and got one MP also. Meanwhile, Sin Fein got 4 seats on 175,000 and the SNP 56 seats on 1.4 million votes. If it had been a straight proportional representational election, the Greens would have 25 seats and UKIP 82. The SNP would have had 30 seats and Sinn Fein just one. In fact, Caroline, if you look at the last few elections - back to Blair's victory in 1997 - in a straight proportional system, it is likely that coalitions of the centre right would have emerged as the government in most cases. I fully accept that current polling suggests at the next election, parties of the centre left/left will win a crushing victory. So, I agree, let's have some form of PR. Bring it on, I believe in a fair electoral system, over my adult life (now in my early 60s) the UK would have had something approaching one nation Toryism for most of the past 40 years and most of the loony ideas of the hard left would have been defeated in all democratic votes.
NB - Yanis Varoufakis is now based in Australia ! Brilliant speech to The Press Club, the other day. Poignant and pertinent ! ☝️♥️✌️🌍🙏
Wow, brilliant discussion.
Malthus would have been so proud
In Germany, the method of voting is known as a mixed-member proportional representation system.If it were introduced ,would do away with with the selection of candidates which gives a lot of power to the two respective Central Offices to control the political agenda for both main parties and the types of candidates which are presented. Which is why we won't get it. It would be like a turkey voting for Christmas and be much more democratic.
Still waiting for those polar ice caps to melt.
To me, Caroline is the epitome of feminine strength. I so wish that she had power; feminine power, which is- power with (rather than power over). May many many more Carolines (women and men!) follow her 💚
Could Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart invite Lord Jonathan Sumption and Lady Brenda Hale onto The Rest is Politics? Law and politics do overlap!
Wouldn't it be nice to hear such interviews on this podcast with each of the Green Party MP candidates?
CL is a legend, however, I think we also need to know more about the next generation stepping up to the ballot.
Hard not to like Caroline Lucas, regardless of political affiliation
The thing about growing the global economy is who, or what, will buy my sweet red roses. Who will buy our wares? If we just put a lot more effort into speeding up the extraction and trade of resources the only people who can benefit from it are those that are speculating on the value of those resources. We need stability, not growth. A sacrosanct minimum quality of life for all - which needs us to think hard about what we actually need to make us feel content. Have we ever just made contentment our goal?
The two areas where we can keep expanding without limit is a: outer space and b: our knowledge and understanding.
We are, currently at least, locked down on this miraculous ball. We've been extracting the resources that were accumulated long before we were able to make use of them. We've been changing them. Not destroying them - just changing them. Changing them in ways that make our lives ever more precarious. For example - the plastics now in our environment and in our oceans. Why haven't we gotten to work trying to figure out how to gather them all up and give them a new use? If there was profit in it - maybe somebody would make it so that environmental plastics weren't the end point. They'd be a resource, too. We should never have seen plastic as the perfect packaging.. I mean - you buy bananas (for example) and even though nobody eats banana skins they come in plastic packaging and that packaging will still be plastic (albeit now unused waste) long after our own atoms have become bananas (or something else that grows and will, probably, end up wrapped in plastic). The less energy is used to remove something from entropy - the less energy it takes for something to return to it. We could be creating the most edifying art and, perhaps, building things that will benefit us for centuries.. No, plastic forks. The plastic fork is the icon of the eternal battle between existence and entropy.
Brilliant listen. Think she stood her ground well but agree with Rory if she moved to the centre perhaps would have had more voters.
I voted for PR in the referendum we were allowed. It is hard to imagine either of the main parties giving us the chance again and easy to imagine the excuses people made last time for voting against it, mainly that nothing would get done with nobody in overall power. People hammer Nick Clegg and scoff at the coalition but imagine the Tories untempered right from the start. Would that the Tories had never been given the exclusive licence to destroy the country over the time they've been in power.
A thing that the 'progressive' left almost always get wrong - and this includes application to discussions about the monarchy - is the advantage of conserving things the way they are unless you (a) *really* know the reasons why they are this way in the first place (the reasons for previously made choices might be more complex than they seem at first); (b) know the benefits (if any) that stem from keeping with the status quo; and (c) are sure of the *net* benefits of changing the status quo *and* have guarded as best you can, in proposing and making changes, against unintended and unwanted consequences.
I was impressed by Caroline's teleportation skills at 1:02:51
Increased women’s rights around the world, are thankfully putting the skids on runaway birth rates, giving women around the world more freedoms, and as a bonus, giving humans cat in hell’s chance of getting out of this ecological crisis. Capitalism is getting nervous about this. Lower birth rates, means labour markets don’t suffer from over supply issues, meaning workers will have increasing confidence to assert their rights through collective bargaining, at capital’s expense. Capital interests in their publications, are pushing the idea of an ‘underpopulation crisis’. And demanding push backs against women’s rights. I wonder why….
Refreshing hearing a politician that is so well spoken and does not need sensational statements to get attention. Sad we are losing someone like that, we need more.
Rory’s right to raise the point that had she not positioned herself quite so far to the left she would have made a much bigger impact in her career - a lesson from the Greens in Germany. A shame.
We need pr to bring the views of far right and far left into the light where they can be debated, defeated and ultimately reconciled. This argument that it would give reform seats shouldn't scare people, it will give the people it represents a political home where they'll have nowhere to hide.
Hang on, are you saying that Scotland is a province and not a country that joined a union Rory? Last time I checked, Catalonia and Texas were states/provinces in a country, not a country within a union. I am baffled by your choice of words.
What I found interesting about this conversation is that both Rory and Alistair completely missed the point. Their views are so conditioned by distinctions of 'left and right' that they were sideswiped. They were trying to pigeonhole Caroline into shades of traditional versus progressive left when in fact she is neither red nor blue but Green.
You are some of the brightest and intelligent people that I listen to - why are you not talking about a federation to replace the current set up.
I like Rory Stewart
Regarding media ownership, the traditional newspaper, TV and radio landscape has of course been changed hugely by the internet and social media platforms. In this respect, there's a very strong case to be made for the establishment of publicly-owned and high-quality competitor alternatives to at least some of the privately-owned social media platforms. The combined financial and expertise resources available to democratically-elected governments is easily sufficient for the successful achievement of this objective.
I,m with you Rory on ‘united kingdom’ and the Scottish issues.It is a bit more complicated than Caroline argues. Might be even more important in relation to future Energy debate, with possible hydro electric developments and decline of N Sea oil. She insists we have to decarbonise and have more renewables and not trash the environment, but makes absolutely no reference to how the associated demands on mining will result in massive 10 fold increase in land use and herald a mining economy. And those ‘renewables’ ( solar and turbines ) have a defined shelf life before they have to be replaced. Yes Rory, the globe has limited resources. Have the Greens have done the maths on the quantities of copper, sand, rare earth minerals, with 1000 fold increase in materials extraction & yet how these have moved us to ever increasing energy consumption? She was in praise of the German Greens, but no mention how they have returned to coal for their baseload energy in view of their Dunkelflaute experience with wind and solar. And of course, none of this discussed by any of our politicians….
I will miss her contributions to Parliament terribly. She never took part in culture wars like the Tories and DUP. A significant loss to parliament. Her successor as leader of the Greens is fantastic and I’m sure Ms Lucas is mentoring her well, and giving her space to be her own type of leader.
The reason the Greens aren't sweeping up many, many more seats, Rory, is lack of PR. We've had decades of the centre pretending to be the sensible folk and look at where that has gotten us. It's time for change- radical change.
The more I see and hear of the practises of parliament and politics in the UK the more convinced I become that my country of Wales only has a future as a fully independent nation (outside the current UK) as defined by United Nations.
Wales can do much better deciding its own future without being dragged in the opposite direct by leaders we never voted for and will never do in the future.
As an independent nation we can have PR, we can invest for our priorities, join the EU.
There would have been no Brexit without England's Tories.
I expect Scotland feels the same.
I always enjoy Rory and Alastair and thought Caroline was excellent- am sure she will be sadly missed in parliament. As a Scot I am uncomfortable with Rory's attitude to a further referendum and the idea that we had a choice and we made it and that's that. We had no idea that less than 2 years later we would be taken out of the EU, indeed one of the key arguments against independence was that we would lose access to the single market. And in the aftermath of the scottish referendum a 'vow' was made by the 3 main leaders in Westminster to strengthen Scotland's place in the union and guarantee its powers. That vow rings hollow now after a decade of helplessly watching the damage inflicted by Westminster. We didn't vote for the Tories and we didn't vote for Brexit, but we were powerless to stop either. So from my point of view, the EU referendum and everything that happened after invalidates the Scottish referendum, because it was fought on a lie. And same goes for the EU referendum, I would hold both votes again and hope for different results in both.
"Once in a generation"
Anyone have a link to that Hansard she mentions where MPs are arguing against being given information which would give them the faintest idea of what they are voting on?
I worry that the now what could be called "legacy MPs" and others now stepping down from Red,Green,Blue or Yellow are too ready to dismiss "populist" platforms and candidates. The word populist is used as if there's a bad smell and yet, those with new, what might be considered as more radical views, appear to be the ones gaining momentum.
The lady is passionate; it does not mean that she always is right! PR sucks, "take a tip from one who's tried".
France was almost ungovernable during the Fourth Republic years; Israel now being in the hands of extremist parties can be attributed to integral PR; the EU parliament is full PR, but is does not have governing power: the EU Council does.
The notion that PR is "fairer" is not the point: an electoral system primary goal is to achieve a governing majority. FPTP is the best for that; Coalition governments from PR are hard to assemble and often prove hamstrung. Only countries with a long tradition of compromise policies can make PR work; that certainly is not the case of Britain (or France for that matter)!
Rate of growth is ENTIRELY dependent on the start point. Actual growth might be exactly the same in two economies but the rate of growth completely different.
She has turned unflappable good humour into a political skill. Unique!
There would also be a load of ukip Muppets.
Double edged sword.
Head and shoulders above most other people in parliament.
Regarding the question about an Independent Scotland. Greenland can by the Greenland homerule act of 21. June 2009 chose to be Independent of Denmark.
So I dont understand Rory Stewards argument
She's held that torch long enough, and that toxic environment is too much for any person to stand alone.
I’m ashamed that I haven’t listened to the impressive Caroline Lucas before. I enjoyed the debate - sensible people articulating opposing arguments with intelligence and respect. She is a loss to UK politics.
Ali stir should answer why labour didn’t push for p/r in 1997 with a labour landslide
And now the Nukes are coming back. Mad world.
As you both point out the Brexit referendum debunked the idea that Britain had lost it's sovereignty by membership of the EU.
How then can you deny Scotland as a sovereign nation the ability to have a referendum whenever it chooses ?
Sometimes Westminster treats Scotland like a colony.
Well the Greens have it more easily in Germany because of the historical political landscape of Germany and a more PR-type of gov of course.
I think the nearest thing to an epiphany in politics that I have was when I first read about Stalin the Great Hero of the left.
The guy was worse than Hitler I'd barely ever heard of him except in terms of "wartime ally", "uncle Joe" and a few show trials I thought there were probably only 12 of them. I had no idea That Stalin killed more than Hitler, was worse than Hitler, his activities were kept secret from us at school and by the BBC by the Left, it was all Hitler, Hitler, Hitler! Clearly, Caroline Lucas never read that book because she would not be on that demonstration on Greenham Common.
The best/only way for the Tories to retain seats is now PR.