Thanks for this, it's so well though out and articulated. This is the type of essays that elevate the conversation instead of making delusional remarks both in favor and against Ai.
You have to keep in mind all that dangerous labour you mention at the end is not what is sought to be automated. Robotics are far away from LLMs. The reason billionaires like UBI is because it will make it so their market dominance lasts perpetually.
You've made a few errors. 1) chatgpt can't be relied on for correct information. ChatGPT consistently gives incorrect information 2) it consumes vast quantities of water. 3) the assumption that no one enjoys the jobs that get automated away is a mistake. People enjoy all sorts of things that others find boring. I can't imagine enjoying math but mathmeticians exist. Some people actually enjoy running shops, but dislike the management methods employed. Even sanitation, i guarantee there's people who enjoy that work. even if it's not the majority of workers. 4) our extraction of resources from the world and constant waste of scraps is plain and outright unsustainable. these technological utopian futures require constant extraction to maintain themselves. what of the people whose lands must be consumed for the extraction? What of the waste heat of all our machines? That builds up to contribute to climate change. I am not a luddite. I know technology can do great things. But constant extraction is killing us. What we need to do is slow down our extraction. We need to Reduce, Reuse and Recycle. and right now we're barely recycling but not doing the first two steps. There's so many resources we could use that would let us stop using plastics, we could spend the effort to salvage components from our tech. We could actually take steps to fix this planet. But capitalism and its extractionist mindset are killing us and will get in the way. I urge people to not fall for capitalism's promises of infinite growth, we know what infinitely grows: cancers, and we know what those do to our body. That is capitalism and extractionism
Exactly! The tech bros keep bull$h1ting us that AI will “solve climate change”, but it is a lie! The data centers needed to run AI “use large amounts of water to maintain equipment. This consumption is causing water pollution and scarcity. Companies must start to release consumption reports. According to the United Nations, water and climate change are strongly linked.” Google it! These machines will be competing with humans for natural resources, for water, energy and land. The tech bros won’t need us for our labor anymore so why would they keep us around? We will be worse than useless to them. The luddites had it right!
@@OxKingMusic For water cooling servers. It's just a common luddite meme of looking at total quantities instead of per capita quantities. They do the same for CO2, pointing at how much CO2 training takes and arguing "therefore AI bad for environment", not accounting for the fact that per-user the individual carbon footprint of using AI is lower than the additional amount of CO2 you would exhale from putting in the mental effort to do the thing yourself.
there may or may not be a way thru at all. imo the question is basically whether or not technological advances will be able to make up for their massive environmental cost, and the type of technological innovation driven by the military-industrial complex isn’t really concerned with going green
Seen a video on democracy at work where one guy gives an example of economic decline through the lens of the western automotive economic hegemony. American cars were no.1 up until the 1950s and 60s because of the wealth of engineering expertise (and lack of WWII destruction). That industry declined because skill and labour were deprioritised for efficiency ofprofit-accounting and relying on a protectionist market just when the Japanese were exceeding them on the run up to the oil crises. American automotive industry failed to invest in favour of short term profit, stuck in a malaise. It crashed in with 2008 and is looking shaky today. From the 1970s onwards the Japanese automakers exceeded the Americans, the west Germans too, now the Koreans which started off as bargain brands. Today if you ever seen how posh Hyundai and Kia are, you'll see the trend they're all following the same mistakes as the Americans, competition by chasing their tales for higher and fundamentally unsustainable profit margins - leaving a vacuum for now superior and affordable Chinese electric cars to devastate western markets...
I still think we shouldn‘t call this stuff AI, it gives the wrong impression. When people hear ‚AI‘ they think ‚thinking machine‘, which is not really the case st the moment. It is far more accurate to talk about machine-learning (as in a generalized self-optimizing algorithm) and large-language-models (as in a very large ML model with the algorithmic goal to predict the next few words from the given words).
Luddites say that if some form of technology is being used against you to harm you, it's okay to smash it. I've never heard anything like that. Taking out power plants that power military targets is common in war and I think if the power plant was primarily powering some weapons factories and wasn't keeping a million people warm in winter, then I could see a situation where Luddites would get behind that. I don't see how they'd ever call to dig up or cut down power lines. It goes against their basic principles. Openai recently deleted the bit in their charter where they said they wouldn't work with militaries. It's the kind of thing that moves it toward a place where it's being developed to harm me and so it's something that is a fair target to try and shut down. I listen to a podcast called Tech won't Save Us and it's a pretty good insight into the directions modern Luddites are headed.
@@torres_asdf your contents really good just gotta upload offen at those standards and market your channel a bit better not fingers crossed if u work the algorithms u will blow up
You would be starving and toiling on a farm, hand patching your clothes. Imagine not having all the things in your life that are made in a factory. Throw your car and phone away. The Industrial Revolution brought the world out of extreme poverty.
If you look at the history the Luddites weren’t protesting technology as such, but the effects on their livelihoods that automation brought. They were anti-capitalists and didn’t want their jobs taken away by factories and other automated processes. Modern Luddism if it exists should take on that tradition. Until we live in an Anarchist society where automation can be used to benefit the community as a whole, automation is a threat to billions of people who need to sell their labor in order to not die.
Automation allows us to produce more food, energy, housing, medicine, and prevent using people in dangerous and toxic environments, all this saves many more lives and reduces cost of living. The benefits of automation greatly outweighs the cost of eliminating some jobs or even all jobs.
Fun fact: George Jetson, from the cartoon _The Jetsons,_ and set in the year 2062, *worked 2 days per week, 1 hour per day!* When _The Jetsons_ first aired, in 1962/63, people thought that organized labor's hard won victories during the first half of the 20th century, 2 day weekend, 40 hour week, retirement pension, etc. would set the trend followed by American workers forever. These things actually did come true, but only for the economic elites. Allowing Elon musk to be the CEO of 4 corporations at the same time and making thousands of times more than the workers at the same corporations. We do the work that keeps the world functioning. It's time we had a say about what our labor is meant to be accomplishing. Guaranteed housing, healthcare, and education. Nobody's gonna give it to us, we have to take it. Vive la revolucion ✊
I came into this vid as an anti-luddite. However, when the choice is either slow down and figure shit out or speed up and figure things out as we go along, I'd say slow down.
The later half of this video seems to incorrectly assume that ai will be the exclusive purview of for profit corporations, but the truth is that there are such systems that are free, open source, and can be locally installed, meaning independent people can train them on their own, and nobody would have to pay for it, and there is simply no way that corporations could ever capture them. You also seem to assume that there are tasks which cannot be automated, which is actually irrelevant as what little labor still occurs would be such that there would be more than enough people genuinely willing to do them, for free. They wouldn’t even need supervision, nor would they be tied down and forced to accept bad working conditions(they could just f’ing leave). I am of course assuming that in the intervening time ubi is implemented. Being anti work, I say let people be liberated from work, however it happens, ideally sooner.
@@torres_asdf I'd argue struggle is the greatest nobility there is. Those who get through things with ease will never grow appreciation for said thing and become complacent. This will eventually blossom into greed and entitlement when given time to grow.
Do you drive? Use a microwave? You’re already on TH-cam watching a video from thin air. You’re utilizing tools already, AI is just a modern tool, you’ll be fine.
Hallway in the video had me screaming at the screen: no, it won't! The owner class still owns intellectual property! The unemployed are an integral part of capitalism called the reserve army of labor! Then I watched the video to the end and was very relieved that this was mostly addressed by the rest of it. Had me in the first half, what can I say. Good video.
@@torres_asdf you are forgetting one thing here. Yes, its true that automation didnt get rid of all jobs. It definitely even created jobs. But thats because automataion in the past was mindless automation. The automated tools didnt have a intelligence. And thus the automation still required human operators to manage and control them. With ai, what these companies and other groups are pursuing is a different goal. They are now pursuing the automation of the operator or human intelligence itself, in the long term. And when that happens, what job would be left for humans? What job will be left when the ai can now not only do the task(by itself), but also monitor the task? And even repair task operations when things go wrong. And while its true that it might take a while for this to occur. In the long term this might eventually happen.
The real Abundance society will come into being as current tech trends bring us to Star Trek replicators centuries before the Star Trek universe had them. Everyone owns THEIR OWN means of production, telling their replicators to build everything they need, including food, clothing, potable water, houses, cars, etc. etc. This means the end of every single scarcity capitalism today handles with reasonable efficiency, which ends the need for capitalism. Capitalism will die, not because of socialist government policies, but because everyone will have the wealth and power of billionaires to create their own lives according to their own lights.
Honestly. I think anaylizing the future is dumb. Its like saying "cars will dominate the next 5 years" and then people just accepting cars taking over the roads because the news said so. All we have is the present. How to live with order in the now. If computers take over jobs, that means that jobs are still a reality. A utopia of only robot workers never will last as labor will continue to shift demand.
There were probably weirdos back in the day who thought that calculators were bad because they made complex problems into simple ones. AI is like the calculator: it is a tool that a human can use to create something, but over reliance results in a poor product.
@@loubaxo9339 Bingo. More like Ghost; n the Shell than Terminator. That's what he meant when he wrote "Nothing human makes it out of the near future." which got bastardized to mean "AI is gonna kill us all". And most of his writing is more centered on his critique of capitalism than a death wish.
@@matten_zero I haven't watched Ghost in a Shell (yet). Well, I'm genuinely sorry for "bastardizing" his thesis, I haven't read any of his work (tho I obviously have the intention to), just saw some videos and comments online, which were obviously a simplification, thus since this is a TH-cam comment section I didn't bother to be theoretical accurate.
weren't covid payments in some developed countries an UBI test? noone knows what this will lead to, perhaps it would be a mix of both utopian and dystopian predictions coming true
This is one of the most lucid, concise, thorough, even-handed and beautifully-worded essays on the subject that I've ever come across. Subscribed
Thanks for this, it's so well though out and articulated. This is the type of essays that elevate the conversation instead of making delusional remarks both in favor and against Ai.
You have to keep in mind all that dangerous labour you mention at the end is not what is sought to be automated. Robotics are far away from LLMs. The reason billionaires like UBI is because it will make it so their market dominance lasts perpetually.
just like the car industry dominating the means of transport.
You've made a few errors. 1) chatgpt can't be relied on for correct information. ChatGPT consistently gives incorrect information 2) it consumes vast quantities of water. 3) the assumption that no one enjoys the jobs that get automated away is a mistake. People enjoy all sorts of things that others find boring. I can't imagine enjoying math but mathmeticians exist. Some people actually enjoy running shops, but dislike the management methods employed. Even sanitation, i guarantee there's people who enjoy that work. even if it's not the majority of workers.
4) our extraction of resources from the world and constant waste of scraps is plain and outright unsustainable. these technological utopian futures require constant extraction to maintain themselves. what of the people whose lands must be consumed for the extraction? What of the waste heat of all our machines? That builds up to contribute to climate change.
I am not a luddite. I know technology can do great things. But constant extraction is killing us. What we need to do is slow down our extraction. We need to Reduce, Reuse and Recycle. and right now we're barely recycling but not doing the first two steps.
There's so many resources we could use that would let us stop using plastics, we could spend the effort to salvage components from our tech. We could actually take steps to fix this planet. But capitalism and its extractionist mindset are killing us and will get in the way. I urge people to not fall for capitalism's promises of infinite growth, we know what infinitely grows: cancers, and we know what those do to our body. That is capitalism and extractionism
What do u mean it consumes vast quantities of water?
Exactly! The tech bros keep bull$h1ting us that AI will “solve climate change”, but it is a lie! The data centers needed to run AI “use large amounts of water to maintain equipment. This consumption is causing water pollution and scarcity. Companies must start to release consumption reports. According to the United Nations, water and climate change are strongly linked.” Google it! These machines will be competing with humans for natural resources, for water, energy and land. The tech bros won’t need us for our labor anymore so why would they keep us around? We will be worse than useless to them. The luddites had it right!
Don't fall into Malthusian fascism.
@@OxKingMusicfor coolant. as an example, look at the utah data center: iirc, they had to build a water line for it to meet the coolant needs
@@OxKingMusic For water cooling servers. It's just a common luddite meme of looking at total quantities instead of per capita quantities. They do the same for CO2, pointing at how much CO2 training takes and arguing "therefore AI bad for environment", not accounting for the fact that per-user the individual carbon footprint of using AI is lower than the additional amount of CO2 you would exhale from putting in the mental effort to do the thing yourself.
There's no way out or back, only through
there may or may not be a way thru at all. imo the question is basically whether or not technological advances will be able to make up for their massive environmental cost, and the type of technological innovation driven by the military-industrial complex isn’t really concerned with going green
i guarantee you, in a post capitalist society no one will look at the ai systems we have now fondly
Seen a video on democracy at work where one guy gives an example of economic decline through the lens of the western automotive economic hegemony. American cars were no.1 up until the 1950s and 60s because of the wealth of engineering expertise (and lack of WWII destruction). That industry declined because skill and labour were deprioritised for efficiency ofprofit-accounting and relying on a protectionist market just when the Japanese were exceeding them on the run up to the oil crises.
American automotive industry failed to invest in favour of short term profit, stuck in a malaise. It crashed in with 2008 and is looking shaky today.
From the 1970s onwards the Japanese automakers exceeded the Americans, the west Germans too, now the Koreans which started off as bargain brands. Today if you ever seen how posh Hyundai and Kia are, you'll see the trend they're all following the same mistakes as the Americans, competition by chasing their tales for higher and fundamentally unsustainable profit margins - leaving a vacuum for now superior and affordable Chinese electric cars to devastate western markets...
That's pretty fascinating, actually, thanks for sharing!
I still think we shouldn‘t call this stuff AI, it gives the wrong impression.
When people hear ‚AI‘ they think ‚thinking machine‘, which is not really the case st the moment.
It is far more accurate to talk about machine-learning (as in a generalized self-optimizing algorithm) and large-language-models (as in a very large ML model with the algorithmic goal to predict the next few words from the given words).
Fair, AI is 100% a buzzword. I feel like we'll look back at the AI hype and see how much everyone lost their minds lol
Do you think extreme luddites might want to destroy the power grid?
data centers are physical places. Way easier and more costly to destroy those, if someone were to be destroying the machines stealing our jobs.
Luddites say that if some form of technology is being used against you to harm you, it's okay to smash it. I've never heard anything like that. Taking out power plants that power military targets is common in war and I think if the power plant was primarily powering some weapons factories and wasn't keeping a million people warm in winter, then I could see a situation where Luddites would get behind that. I don't see how they'd ever call to dig up or cut down power lines. It goes against their basic principles. Openai recently deleted the bit in their charter where they said they wouldn't work with militaries. It's the kind of thing that moves it toward a place where it's being developed to harm me and so it's something that is a fair target to try and shut down. I listen to a podcast called Tech won't Save Us and it's a pretty good insight into the directions modern Luddites are headed.
Great video keep it up your channel will be huge
Fingers crossed 😂
@@torres_asdf your contents really good just gotta upload offen at those standards and market your channel a bit better not fingers crossed if u work the algorithms u will blow up
The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
You would be starving and toiling on a farm, hand patching your clothes. Imagine not having all the things in your life that are made in a factory.
Throw your car and phone away.
The Industrial Revolution brought the world out of extreme poverty.
If you look at the history the Luddites weren’t protesting technology as such, but the effects on their livelihoods that automation brought. They were anti-capitalists and didn’t want their jobs taken away by factories and other automated processes.
Modern Luddism if it exists should take on that tradition. Until we live in an Anarchist society where automation can be used to benefit the community as a whole, automation is a threat to billions of people who need to sell their labor in order to not die.
Honestly it'd be worth looking into the history of the luddites, super interesting social movement
Automation allows us to produce more food, energy, housing, medicine, and prevent using people in dangerous and toxic environments, all this saves many more lives and reduces cost of living. The benefits of automation greatly outweighs the cost of eliminating some jobs or even all jobs.
@@libertyprime1614 Exactly. There's a Reason the US was so much more advance than the USSR.
@@libertyprime1614only if you have a social and distribution plan for that. We dont
The reason industry giants are okay with UBI is that it will maintain their complete market dominance perpetually.
Fun fact: George Jetson, from the cartoon _The Jetsons,_ and set in the year 2062, *worked 2 days per week, 1 hour per day!*
When _The Jetsons_ first aired, in 1962/63, people thought that organized labor's hard won victories during the first half of the 20th century, 2 day weekend, 40 hour week, retirement pension, etc. would set the trend followed by American workers forever.
These things actually did come true, but only for the economic elites. Allowing Elon musk to be the CEO of 4 corporations at the same time and making thousands of times more than the workers at the same corporations.
We do the work that keeps the world functioning. It's time we had a say about what our labor is meant to be accomplishing. Guaranteed housing, healthcare, and education. Nobody's gonna give it to us, we have to take it.
Vive la revolucion ✊
I came into this vid as an anti-luddite. However, when the choice is either slow down and figure shit out or speed up and figure things out as we go along, I'd say slow down.
Incredible quality for such a small channel
Great video!
Glad you liked it!
The later half of this video seems to incorrectly assume that ai will be the exclusive purview of for profit corporations, but the truth is that there are such systems that are free, open source, and can be locally installed, meaning independent people can train them on their own, and nobody would have to pay for it, and there is simply no way that corporations could ever capture them. You also seem to assume that there are tasks which cannot be automated, which is actually irrelevant as what little labor still occurs would be such that there would be more than enough people genuinely willing to do them, for free. They wouldn’t even need supervision, nor would they be tied down and forced to accept bad working conditions(they could just f’ing leave). I am of course assuming that in the intervening time ubi is implemented. Being anti work, I say let people be liberated from work, however it happens, ideally sooner.
do you own the infrastructure? Why are you assuming UBI will come just in time?
very underrated video
AI would potentially be very useful for me, but I just refuse to use it. It feels like cheating, and I hate cheating. I'd rather struggle.
That's fair. But I'd encourage you to remember, there's no nobility in struggling either.
@@torres_asdf I'd argue struggle is the greatest nobility there is. Those who get through things with ease will never grow appreciation for said thing and become complacent. This will eventually blossom into greed and entitlement when given time to grow.
Tell that to people who use Calculators in Algebra.
Do you drive? Use a microwave? You’re already on TH-cam watching a video from thin air.
You’re utilizing tools already, AI is just a modern tool, you’ll be fine.
Hallway in the video had me screaming at the screen: no, it won't! The owner class still owns intellectual property! The unemployed are an integral part of capitalism called the reserve army of labor!
Then I watched the video to the end and was very relieved that this was mostly addressed by the rest of it. Had me in the first half, what can I say. Good video.
LMAO thanks for sticking it out 😂 i feel like going through opinions i disagree with helps me understand them better
@@torres_asdf you are forgetting one thing here. Yes, its true that automation didnt get rid of all jobs. It definitely even created jobs. But thats because automataion in the past was mindless automation. The automated tools didnt have a intelligence. And thus the automation still required human operators to manage and control them.
With ai, what these companies and other groups are pursuing is a different goal. They are now pursuing the automation of the operator or human intelligence itself, in the long term. And when that happens, what job would be left for humans? What job will be left when the ai can now not only do the task(by itself), but also monitor the task? And even repair task operations when things go wrong.
And while its true that it might take a while for this to occur. In the long term this might eventually happen.
Wow Dan T. the Manly back it again with a banger video
great video, political vertigo is a very apt phrase that I hadn't heard before, but I've been feeling it a lot recently lol
If you liked it i suggest the book Inhuman Power! It's a great look at AI from a Marxist lens
@@torres_asdf thank you for the recommendation!
The real Abundance society will come into being as current tech trends bring us to Star Trek replicators centuries before the Star Trek universe had them. Everyone owns THEIR OWN means of production, telling their replicators to build everything they need, including food, clothing, potable water, houses, cars, etc. etc. This means the end of every single scarcity capitalism today handles with reasonable efficiency, which ends the need for capitalism. Capitalism will die, not because of socialist government policies, but because everyone will have the wealth and power of billionaires to create their own lives according to their own lights.
Honestly. I think anaylizing the future is dumb. Its like saying "cars will dominate the next 5 years" and then people just accepting cars taking over the roads because the news said so.
All we have is the present. How to live with order in the now. If computers take over jobs, that means that jobs are still a reality. A utopia of only robot workers never will last as labor will continue to shift demand.
There were probably weirdos back in the day who thought that calculators were bad because they made complex problems into simple ones. AI is like the calculator: it is a tool that a human can use to create something, but over reliance results in a poor product.
Actually great video.
Check out Nick Land. He believes capitalism is AI from the future, creating itself.
he also believes that same AI will kill us all.
@@loubaxo9339 not like Terminator, but more like human needs will become secondary
@@matten_zero as far as my research goes, the landian AI will either destroy humanity or completely replace it (through hybridization)
@@loubaxo9339 Bingo. More like Ghost; n the Shell than Terminator. That's what he meant when he wrote "Nothing human makes it out of the near future." which got bastardized to mean "AI is gonna kill us all". And most of his writing is more centered on his critique of capitalism than a death wish.
@@matten_zero I haven't watched Ghost in a Shell (yet). Well, I'm genuinely sorry for "bastardizing" his thesis, I haven't read any of his work (tho I obviously have the intention to), just saw some videos and comments online, which were obviously a simplification, thus since this is a TH-cam comment section I didn't bother to be theoretical accurate.
AI accelerationists have to be purged and AI made extremely illegal.
Instead of getting used by AI for a week read some Jacques Ellul.
I'll check them out. Thanks for the rec!
@@torres_asdf Him. Jacques Ellul was a man.
weren't covid payments in some developed countries an UBI test? noone knows what this will lead to, perhaps it would be a mix of both utopian and dystopian predictions coming true
Accelerate.
Ai will never be something to fear. Reminds me of all the panic in the 90s that robots would take our jobs lol. Do better
But fear sells!
@@terbospeed exactly. They're always looking for something to fear or sell to fear. Remember Y2K? Lol
How many billionaires have or need jobs? I rest my case.
Left Luddite lol
just a little click bait as a treat
Just horrible images generated by AI. But at least a few people who use this AI garbage get the appearance of intelligence.
Shoutout to all my candlemakers in the chat that got replaced by machines.
"There is no capitalism without labor" - that's a stupid take.