Configuring the auto meridian flip in N.I.N.A.!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ค. 2020
- The automated meridian flip is the key to getting a good night's sleep while your setup, orchestrated by N.I.N.A, does all the hard work - in the video we look at what the flip really is, how it works, and the settings that affect it in NINA. Properly setting this makes a big difference!
#astrophotography - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Do you enable meridian flip in EQMOD as well as NINA?
I should have mentioned that in the video! No! Do not enable Meridian Flip in EQMOD! If you do, EQMOD will flip the scope on its own, and NINA won't even realize it happened. You just want to have Meridian limits set in EQMOD, and meridian flip set to off in there. Thanks for asking, this is important!
Cuiv, thank you, do you have any boxes checked in EQMOD limits editor? Other than the yellow lines and the main ‘enable limits’ box checked?
@@andythilo. I just have it enabled on slew if I remember correctly - otherwise it is as you describe;
Thank you Cuiv :)
I know this is an older video, and maybe something has changed in three years, but the NINA manual says this about Use Telescope Side of Pier:
"Almost all mount drivers can tell N.I.N.A which side of the pier/tripod the telescope is on which is either west or east. Having this enabled will make the flip determination logic much more reliable and robust, as no assumptions about the pier state haveto be made. Strongly recommended to be turned on"
That said, thanks for all your hard work.
you are my go to for anything NINA or astrophotography. you have saved me many headaches being a noob. come back soon Cuiv!
Loving this playlist. Thanks so much for your contributions to NINA and also for making these videos.
I just switched to the Advance Sequencer and like it. But I have not been able to get my Meridian Flips to be successful. One thing I've notice is that when I start the scope I'm asked "NINA to Telescope" (EQMOD) or "Telescope to NINA". Most people I speak with say use Telescope to NINA, but when I do that I get an error message from NINA, so I usually select NINA to Telescope because I import my coordinates from Carter duCiel. My Meridian flip settings seem to be okay, and pretty consistent with what you show. BTW - it is asking a lot, so if you think it useful - there have been quite a few updates to NINA so hoping you might update the videos, maybe add a short segment at the end to go over any changes that may be significant. Thanks again for doing these!
Cuiv, informative video. I always learn a lot for your vids and they are the right length. Thanks
loving these videos Cuiv, You sure are filling my brain with information. Haha, awesome work mate!
Glad it's helping! Filling up brains is a great occupation! :-)
Very helpful videos. Cheers
Another fine video, I didn't know that EQMOD had that feature built in, boy things have changed in 13 years. Looking forward to the next video Cuiv.
EQMOD has that built in, but in this case NINA is the one managing the flip.
Thxs that helps me.
This was an extremely helpful video for me. I'm using a Vixen AXD2 here in Ireland and can't thank you enough for getting Vixen to fix Starbook Ten.
I feel like NINA could benefit from tool tips like APT has for a lot of this stuff as it's often not entirely clear what a setting means. I'm sure that kind of dev work is kind of painful to do. In the meantime, we have Cuiv, and that's not bad :-)
Cuiv - I wonder if there's any way to set limits in the Vixen Starbook Ten driver?
I am just replay your videos on autofocus, platesolving, sequencing and this to set my rig up tonight where the skies are clear (though the moon is screaming tonight at full blast)
Good luck!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks. We have like 4 days of clear skies and I all of NINA working for me except the autofocus(I used another focuser), and your advice on using PHD2 2.6.9dev3 multistar is very useful. I got impeccable guiding for three straight nights.
Our space-time continium is rested upon our mounts...
Thank you for posting such informative and pithy videos. I have an interesting problem with NINA. I am testing this indoors to understand the settings. I used Cartes Du Ciel to point the HobyM Crux Trv 140 and the Titan TCS 3.2 ASCOM driver along with NINA. The mount is set to not flip on the hand controller. For some reason when I am on either side of the meridian the "Meridian in" and "Meridian flip in" numbers are around 24:00:00 as opposed to a number closed to 00:00:00 (ie. "now"). Interestingly SGPro shows the "Time to Meridian" correctly at the same time. (I connected to the driver simultaneously with both applications to see the difference). Am I missing some obvious setting?
Cuiv: Any chance you might do a short topic video showing how you’ve organized the your NINA screens to go with your workflow? It seems all the NINA tutorials, yours and others, have different setups, tabs etc so it makes it a bit confusing for new folks to learn NINA. I was out the other night and decided to experiment but couldn’t even figure out how to set exposure or gain for a test image. I’m sure you have it set up to enable all that without clicking all over the place to find an adjustable gain or exposure setting for a snapshot. Thank you for all the great content - and for the humor that accompanies it! Gary
I have a confession to make: I've never organized my NINA screens.... I just use the default layout! So the best way would be to restore the default layout settings in the Settings -> General. However, it does change between NINA versions to some extent and these days I use NINA 11....
Excellent….thanks.
Hey Cuiv! I set up my flip for a couple sessions ago and I noticed after the flip, my guiding got messed up and I needed to recalibrate PHD2. Do you have any options set in there that help with this? Thanks for the informative videos!
I had "figure out NINA auto meridian flip" on my list of things to do today. Score!
Thanks! I have the iOptron mount which does not have EQMOD.I guess meridian flip would still work. However I am wondering about PHD. Will PHD just resume guiding automatically after flip?
Great post. Does NINA know to automatically stop imagining when you tell NINA to stop the mount and wait for a meridian flip? Is there a toggle for this?
The whole flip is automated, so NINA will stop imaging when it is triggered (from NINA). If you stop mount tracking from outside of NINA, it will happily keep imaging with star trails, and meridian flip will not be triggered by NINA, since the mount will never be sufficiently close to the Meridian...
Great video... I have had issues with my Losmandy G11GT Mount not accepting the re-slew command when a flip is needed. The mount seems to want you to park and then slew to the target. Nothing happens with the mount when Nina gives the re-slew command during the required flip. I am not sure if this is due to the fact that tracking stops due to the limits set in the Gemini 2 are reached and the mount has stopped tracking prior to the meridian and the mount requires it to goto a park position prior to re-slewing to anything. I love Nina and use it as my main capture software in my observatory. I don’t have this issue with the AP 1600GTO Mount. I would sure love to figure this Losmandy quirk out. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Thank you! Interesting on the G11GT - I have never owned a Losmandy so I can't comment on this particular mount, but this is what I have seen as usual causes:
- Mount limits that make the mount refuse to answer any slewing commands. Adjusting the meridian flip time or the limits usually takes care of that. Maybe set Pause before Meridian to 0? If you equipment has no risk of hitting the tripod/pier, I would make the mount not pause at or before Meridian, and be able to track past Meridian for 10-20 minutes. Then, I can just ask NINA to not pause before Meridian, and to just flip 10 minutes past.
- Time or coordinates discrepancy between mount data and NINA: the mount may still think a target has not reached the Meridian, while NINA thinks it has - then, issuing the slew command to the mount doesn't do anything
- Tying to flip at or right after the Meridian - sometimes it confuses the mount
Note that you can test during the daytime, by slewing with something like CdC very close to the Meridian, and starting a dummy sequence in NINA - you don't have to waste imaging time.
By the way, DriveTanks.com :o I'd love to try if I'm ever back in Texas!
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek ... Thank you for the great response. I’d love to have you out here to Texas. I will make sure you have a great time! I am the creator of DriveTanks. Thanks again for your videos...well done. Also, have an RoR observatory here on site with Bortle 1. You can see the equip on my instagram. degidio_astrophotography.
Hi, So is NINA smart enough to work around the sequence? Will it wait until the current exposure is complete before flipping? What if it's a very long exposure like 15 or 20 min, will it flip before the exposure if it knows it wont have enough time to complete the exposure before it needs to flip?
I read in other publications about meridian flip that second reason to flip is tracking accuracy of objects passed the meridian because of calibration calculations, is it true?
I am using Cartes du Ciel with NINA. For some targets, I will frame things a bit more after platesolving/centering. I suspect many folks will do that as well, rather than just put the target in the centre. When you do an automated meridian flip in NINA will it recenter to the adjusted position or to the original target coordinates? If not the adjusted coordinates, how do you get that to happen?
By the way, I have just started watching your videos--they are models of clarity and concise. Thank you for explaining NINA in such detail.
Thanks for the feedback Norman! The Meridian Flip will use the target coordinates set in the sequence (if any), otherwise, it will use the Telescope coordinates (e.g. where the mount thinks it is pointed at). So yes I think what you're asking for is a "set current telescope coordinates as sequence target", or something like that. It's not a bad idea, you could put that in NINA's issue tracker! I'm also asking on the NINA Discord.
Or maybe the easiest is to just start the sequence without a sequence target - then it just uses your telescope coordinates as is!
Thanks Cuiv for this and your other videos. Thank God they don't have calories, otherwise I would already be soooo overweight, as I am eating them up like crazy. Binge watching Cuiv, The Lazy Geek.... I haven't done any photo session yet that involves a meridian flip, maybe tonight... but one thing has always puzzled me and I haven't found an answer yet: after the flip, the picure on your camera sensor will be rotated by 180 degrees, correct? So obviously, meridian flips work... but where does this rotation get accounted for? You have to plate-solve to recenter - does plate solve somehow know that there was a meridian flip and it should look at a rotated image? And lateron when processing a set of images that you took through a meridian flip - stacking and aligning - what happens there? Do I need to manually do it? Or do the stacker programs also know about the flip? Thanks again and best greetings from Germany.
You are right on the flip - and everything is automated :) Platesolving does not care about orientation, it will figure it out (and even tell you). Registration/Stacking does not care about orientation, same thing, it is smart and will figure it out. Guiding DOES care about orientation, so depending on the mount you may need to reverse the DEC output after flip (it's an option in PHD2).
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks! I'll have to look into that. I have CGX and EQ6R... Would a plate solve also find it's way out of a particular rotation that you have chosen for your image and know it's only flipped - all good rather than tellling you: Great - you're on target, but 180 degrees out of rotation - you need to rotate your camera, buddy! :) Regarding "everything automated"... I'm old fashioned. It's ok to have it automated, but I'd also like to know the "machine" inside that black box so if something doesn't work, I know where to search.
Another great video Cuiv! Thank you. But I don’t understand why you would need ‘pause before meridian’ (8:30) and you didn’t explain what that is used for.
I would asume one might need to stop before meridian because the gear setup. Say like you might be getting close to a crash right at the meridian not slightly after.
Thank you for your videos; i watched them all.
N.I.N.A. seems to be really a great tool and i decided to switch to NINA and tried everything with my setting and it works fine EXCEPT the meridian flip (which works fine in SGP!)
Do you have any idea(s) why my mount (Losmandy / G11) is not moving at all when it comes to the flip? Nina runs though the meridian flip sequence and act as if the mount has flipped, plate solve etc. and the mount will move slightly to the position prior to where I originally centered the object but the mount will not flip to other side!!
If I can't get to work the meridian flip in NINA, i unfortunately have to go back to SGP :-(
I also tried the NINA-Discord, but there's no information that helps. (maybe due to my bad english, although the programer is german, but i didi't find a place to tell my problem in my mother language!)
Wow, thank you for watching everything!
So from what you are writing, it sounds like a mount misconfiguration, or a weird Gemini behavior. The only thing that NINA (or EKOS) does when doing the flip is perform a GoTo command to the target, and it expects the mount will properly flip to point to a target past meridian! So I've read a bit of the Gemini settings (which seem overly complicated) like here: gemini-2.com/hc/En-limits-safety_goto.php
Say you are flipping 10 minutes after meridian. 10 minutes is 2.5 degrees. But if I read that documentation properly, if I have for example Western Goto Limit set to 5, and Western Safety Limit set to 100 for example, then GoTos will not flip the mount until the target is at least 100 - 5 - 90 = 5 degrees past meridian. So we'd get the behavior you see.
So it that case, I need to set Western Goto Limit and Western Safety Limit to a place where WSL - WGT - 90 < 2.5 . So something like 100 and 8? I have no idea what any of those parameters really do, but man I hope there's a meaning to what appears to me to be over-engineered functionality!
Good luck and clear skies!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks for your elaborate research and your answer. I read this point concerning the Gemini-II settings when i got the G11, but obviously i didn't understand it. But thanks to your explanation i now can see what it means and it sounds very logic (what's your profession? are you teacher, because you can explain the things in a very understandable way:-))
I will try it next time we have a clear night here in south germany
CS
@@didi_p7756 Hopefully it will work! Note that the Losmandy developer has identified the lack of flip as a Gemini driver issue (see bitbucket.org/Isbeorn/nina/issues/587/nina-rel-110-will-not-do-a-meridian-flip-w and groups.io/g/Gemini_ASCOM_Driver/topic/nina_rel_1_10_will_not_do_a/75669586?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,75669586 ). I am still fairly hopeful that my workaround will work. Note that you can try during the day! Just set up a sequence without any centering or autofocus, use some planetarium software to slew to a star that's crossing the Meridian soon (like 5 minutes later), start the sequence, and wait. All dust caps can be kept on , of course.
And no, I am not a teacher - but I love teaching people, so sometimes I wish I were! Good luck and clear skies!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek It seems that your hopes have been fulfilled:-); you are great!! So thanks a lot for your effort and your support; i tested it tonight and played a little bit around --> and it works!!
At the end i don't want to waste so much time while waiting for the flip, so i set 'minutes past meridian' to 1 min which means 0,25° after the meridian. And for the mount that means to set a western goto limit of 11° with a western safety limit of 101° (101° - 11° = 90°) in the settings of the Gemini-II. Then NINA only waits 1min -plus the rest of the time where no more exposure is possible- and that's okay for me :-)
i also wanted to answer the folks in the other forums, but i'm not so good in explaining things and my english is not good enough :-(
'telescope side of pier' has to be ON with my EQ5pro... my first attempt flipped the scope in DEC only and thankfully stopped around horizontal...but the RA did not move
The Side of pier setting in NINA doesn't do anything with regards to that - I should know, I coded it. It may prevent a flip from happening however.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek well, I can switch it off and try again and I'll let you know
What is the maximum "pause" that can be set in "pause before meridian flip"? In my case the guidescope reaches the top of the dome before the main instrument and it's image is cutoff before reaching the meridian. I think I used 30 minutes in earlier versions of NINA but basically the mount stopped tracking and never did a flip. In my case I have to give "pause" a head start.
Mmmh that is quite interesting, and I am not quite sure - in theory, from the code, the pause can be any number of minutes. So 30 minutes should be fine, in theory, and NINA should still send a slew command to the mount past Meridian. Did you see NINA 's Meridian flip UI appear after the 30 minutes? I can't say much without logs (which should be posted on the NINA Discord), but it almost feels like the mount itself might stop listening if paused for too long? This would need to be analyzed. This is very curious, and I hope you can figure it out...!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Don't have the logs as that was quite a few updates back and I haven't tried but a couple meridian flips in NINA, I think about the middle of 2019. But when I get a chance will try it in the current version and find a target about an hour before merdian and see how it handles it.--Thanks OS
Forgot to mention the Meridian Flip UI did appear in this latest version.
Currently, until I feel more comfortable with auto meridian flip, I just reslew to the current target and the flip is done while I'm observing the flip. I use EQMOD. The problem is that I can't continue tracking after the flip because EQMOD says I'm at the meridian, even though I just did the flip. I have to disable limits for around 25 minutes to get the scope to continue tracking. Any idea how I can start tracking right after my manual flip. Maybe a setting in EQMOD? Thanks and didn't know about your accident a few months back and hope you're doing better. I know spinal surgery takes a long time.
Set your EQMOD limits to a few degrees beyond the Meridian ( th-cam.com/video/AoPld2oEnnA/w-d-xo.html ) . Then tracking won't be stopped and you can just configure NINA to flip like 10 minutes past the Meridian...
Thanks on the accident! I will need further surgery next year to remove the titanium rods and screws from my back. I'm both looking forward to it (finally I'll be able to put on socks and shoes easily!) and dreading it...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks fir the technical assistance. Hope you continue to heal. I really love your channel. The developers just added support for my SBIG camera and I’m thrilled I can finally use NINA. Spending lots of time now with Cuiv videos!
Can someone please help with the auto-meridian flip and PHD. When the software goes through its meridian flip sequence and everything works except the auto-guiding calibration data does not flip and PHD doesn't know what to do and my guiding starts drifting until PHD just stops. Is there a setting that needs to be turned on or what are you doing to keep the guiding going after the flip?
If you need to invert after flip, there is a setting in PHD2 for that, in the guiding options
About your comment on N.I.N.A's limitation at 5:03 sec about objects visible throughout the whole year about the Northern hemisphere, I gather that it's an issue for Southern hemisphere too? .e.g if I'm at a latitude whereThe Crux is visible throughout the whole year?
Unfortunately yes, this will be an issue in the Southern Hemisphere as well...
The limits themselves are not necessary for the meridian flip though, are they? It's just in case anything goes wrong and it doesn't flip for whatever reason, did I understand that correctly?
It's exactly as you say! They're not strictly necessary for the meridian flip, but they are a backup in case the meridian flip didn't occur - so it's really a matter of safety. I would definitely configure them (upcoming video on that for EQMOD).
@@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks! And well, that upcoming video is something Ill be looking forward to then :p
Hey Cuiv, just starting with n.i.n.a and had to luring a lot. I did set my end point in EQMOD the are 2 bares beyond meridian. Now if I’m not wrong that’s about 2 hours past meridian? So for the meridian setup in n.i.n.a do I set time to 120min than? Or do I still set it at 10min? I did set it to do auto meridian. And if I slew to my max settings it does do meridian flip.
How do you change mount position in eqmod? I cant do the white lines doesnt move..
Are you referring to the mount limits? There is a good tutorial here: th-cam.com/video/AoPld2oEnnA/w-d-xo.html . Hopefully this helps!
I own a CGEM and it does not respond to the meridian flip instruction from NINA. It just keep tracking.. I have not let it go to a fatal end but I guess it would continue until the telescope is 20 degrees below horizontal. As a consequence, I cannot leave it unattended and go to bed, as I would like to be perfectly lazy… Any idea from anyone to solve this problem?
I would ask on the NINA Discord - Celestron mounts can be dark and full of terrors, but others on the Discord have experience with them. Good luck!
Also, guiding is not paused and restarted before and after the flip.... whereas it did in APT... maybe i'm missing a setting somewhere
For such issues you should ask the NINA devs directly on their Discord!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek thanks, its all working now... User error 🤣