0:57 I feel incredible amounts of pain because of the fact that the left wheel is colliding with the gears. This can result in improper steering, making it turn better on direction but not as well at the other.
I like how Lego encourages people to come up with novel and elegant solutions to problems, such as Sariel's steering here. One improvement you might want to consider - on the POV video it looks like the inside wheel is angled less than the outside wheel, i.e. the opposite of Ackermann geometry, which will give you a lot of tyre scrub. I wonder if having unequal lengths on the pivot members (i.e. longer on the front, shorter on the rear or vice versa, not sure) would counteract that and give you realistic Ackermann angles? Unfortunately my Lego is currently packed away so I can't try it myself.
If you replace the beams with links, you could add a MacPherson strut and make it suspended. I have actually tried this, and it works quite good. Although I've just tried it with smaller wheels.
I designed a driven steering setup similar to the one in my Subaru, but I can't really speak for how well it solves most of the problems with the standard Lego setup.
I recently found that the hard plastic wheels from a galaxy squad set have a very good turning radius. They don't look good by any means but they have a pivot range similar to the virtual pivots, or at least as I can tell.
I made this type of steering awhile back and didn't use the actuators. I believe I used a rack and pinion for it, so it can be done. Good job though. Can't wait to see it on other models.
Their steering system is with what stood off that best to itself a creative head left. But it would be interesting to get to know whether it was possibly it with driving to build.
I see when you were driving it that the linear actuators skipped out of allignment, so that one wheel was pointing straight, but the other was angled. Perhaps you could link the two with additional beams across the top, or directly with gears?
Hi man, great video. I want to ask you a question. With the EV3 medium motor this system takes so much time. Could you please help me? Greetings from Italy
How about using virtual pivot and Ackermans steering (solving problem of different centers of cyrcles, that each tire follows during turning) in one design? Could you do that? I would love to see that done with lego technics.
My apologies for being an utter pedant, but you put "enge" instead of "edge" in the slide @ 0:07. I think I've seen a linkage version of this, it's been around for a while. Thanks for the explanation and instructions though, I can't see Lego giving us anything similar to 8848 wheel/arms because from their PoV the current parts do the job.
I'm not so sure. Technic steering has been around since 70's and they never seemed to bother much with geometry. Also, if you try to solve this with wheels alone then you end up with something like 8448 set: wheels that can be steered but not driven. You would need some sort of a ball joint in the center of the wheel to drive it.
We get new parts every year, it is just matter of time. Those parts may not make our steered/driven axles perfect, but they will get us closer. In time, they just might make some cool specialized parts that will mimic real axles perfectly. One can hope, at least.
Limitless Bricks LEGO Models I admire your optimism. Remember, it took them 30 years to make a pneumatic cylinder with realistic proportions (42043 set).
Yes, but that's not exactly something crucial. Besides, if you get rid of actuators and replace them with some linkage, you could have return-to-center steering.
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den The real downside is the simple fact: when front wheel gets slowed (hits the obstacle), the resulting force will be acting on the steering, and will suddenly affect the direction. Even with the classic steering arrangement the drivers of old trucks were told to avoid putting thumbs inside the steering wheel (hold it like a solid disc), as the steering wheel spoke could easily break thumbs when wheel hit the stone or pothole. Yes, you can use the worm gear but that will prevent it from self-centering, which is important part of vehicle kinematics.
Unrealistic? Thats how most vehicles' steering operates. The problem with lego is you cant fit the joint deep enough into the rim to make it pivot near the center.
It's about the rim, to be specific. Most Lego rims are centered within the wheel, so the pivot is moved to the side. This rim is moved to the side, so the pivot can be centered.
This solution results in inverse ackermann, the outside wheel turns sharper than the inside wheel, causing the wheels to fight each other. The only problem with the "standard" LEGO steering is that it results in a lot of scrub radius, this is caused not by the steering geometry but the wheel offset. The "special" lego parts you showed had positive offset wheels to compensate for scrub radius. Had you used those wheels on the regular lego steering parts it would have reduced the observed scrub radius. Scrub radius is caused by an offset between the steering pivot and the tire centerline, real cars try to ensure the contact patch of the tire rotates around the centerline of the tire.
On your build one of the wheels was rubbing against the gear. This is definetly avoidable by putting more time into the base of the car or not putting the motor in such an orientation. Also, are you from Poland? Because that's what i am thinking judging by .pl at the end of sariel.pl This was just to clear Lexas question or concern about the wheel turning onto the gear and interfering with the steering mechanism.
The most realistic and the only I have seen is very alike the first with "bad geometry" cars dont have the pivot in the center of the wheel for a reason. And the reason is tires last much longer.
0:57 I feel incredible amounts of pain because of the fact that the left wheel is colliding with the gears. This can result in improper steering, making it turn better on direction but not as well at the other.
You and me both
It’s just an example
Longer axel should solve the provlem
@@dune_strider3055 Longer axle. that hold the wheels?
@@TheSingularNextuz. Make the axel shaft longer and make the other components fit it. Am I missing something?
I like how Lego encourages people to come up with novel and elegant solutions to problems, such as Sariel's steering here.
One improvement you might want to consider - on the POV video it looks like the inside wheel is angled less than the outside wheel, i.e. the opposite of Ackermann geometry, which will give you a lot of tyre scrub. I wonder if having unequal lengths on the pivot members (i.e. longer on the front, shorter on the rear or vice versa, not sure) would counteract that and give you realistic Ackermann angles? Unfortunately my Lego is currently packed away so I can't try it myself.
donkmeister, not only this, but the wheel when turning left makes contact with the gear, and this could cause difficulties. But i'm not one to judge.
If you replace the beams with links, you could add a MacPherson strut and make it suspended. I have actually tried this, and it works quite good. Although I've just tried it with smaller wheels.
I designed a driven steering setup similar to the one in my Subaru, but I can't really speak for how well it solves most of the problems with the standard Lego setup.
I recently found that the hard plastic wheels from a galaxy squad set have a very good turning radius. They don't look good by any means but they have a pivot range similar to the virtual pivots, or at least as I can tell.
I made this type of steering awhile back and didn't use the actuators. I believe I used a rack and pinion for it, so it can be done.
Good job though. Can't wait to see it on other models.
Looks great! Never seen that before.
Thanks for making this video. Before I didn't know how this.
Their steering system is with what stood off that best to itself a creative head left. But it would be interesting to get to know whether it was possibly it with driving to build.
thanks for the instructions, I will have to try this out!
Great work!!! Could show articulated steering in the soon to come future😄
I that this steering method could be used in the tumbler, but it doesn't be so difficult to add suspension
This method is a very good idea
We do not speak Japanese that's why we are subscribed to your channel .
What does my channel have to do with Japanese?
I've used my own version of this a while ago! Great video nonetheless mate :)
Thanks for sharing!
Sup. Thats very cool
Nice video!!!!
Good bike!!!
Any idea where I can find lego pieces icon in such high resplution? Those in official pdfs are very bad.
GREAT, and simple explanation! But I dont have those "proper" wheels from 8448 model
It seems to ride smoother, despite having no suspension.
Surely you can use this set up with a pendular suspension?
I see when you were driving it that the linear actuators skipped out of allignment, so that one wheel was pointing straight, but the other was angled. Perhaps you could link the two with additional beams across the top, or directly with gears?
You could use beams, sure. But I don't think they went out of alignment, it's the wide-angle camera that distorts things a bit.
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den Oh, okay.
Congratulations
Nice dirt jumping bike couldn't help to notice lol.
Nice
Hi man, great video. I want to ask you a question. With the EV3 medium motor this system takes so much time. Could you please help me? Greetings from Italy
You can try to gear it up.
How about using virtual pivot and Ackermans steering (solving problem of different centers of cyrcles, that each tire follows during turning) in one design? Could you do that? I would love to see that done with lego technics.
martin336able Sounds doable, would require arms of uneven length.
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den you can use the old technic plates, you know, the ones with holes at either end.
still better than kyosho servos
Nice, but it lacks the Ackerman steering principle. If that can be added plus suspension plus front wheel drive, perfect!
Or half of an AWD.
Nice cycle
I have a question: Is using regular steering systems with an m-motor bad for the motor?
+Yoda Gamer No if you include a clutch gear to prevent the motor from stalling.
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den oh you actually replied :D Thanks!
perfect thank you
sir, maybe with the four links been 2 degrees of freedom it can be suspended and leanable.
すごいですね。
参考にさせていただきます。
How many rc units do u have? @Sariel's LEGO
Two.
My apologies for being an utter pedant, but you put "enge" instead of "edge" in the slide @ 0:07.
I think I've seen a linkage version of this, it's been around for a while. Thanks for the explanation and instructions though, I can't see Lego giving us anything similar to 8848 wheel/arms because from their PoV the current parts do the job.
Thanks, sorry about that. Been editing this late at night :)
Wouldn't properly offset wheels/hubs solve this issue?
Sure, but Lego barely makes any of these. That's kinda the whole point.
In time, I guess Lego will produce new parts that will make the wheels behave more and more realistically.
Very true
I'm not so sure. Technic steering has been around since 70's and they never seemed to bother much with geometry. Also, if you try to solve this with wheels alone then you end up with something like 8448 set: wheels that can be steered but not driven. You would need some sort of a ball joint in the center of the wheel to drive it.
We get new parts every year, it is just matter of time. Those parts may not make our steered/driven axles perfect, but they will get us closer. In time, they just might make some cool specialized parts that will mimic real axles perfectly. One can hope, at least.
Limitless Bricks LEGO Models I admire your optimism. Remember, it took them 30 years to make a pneumatic cylinder with realistic proportions (42043 set).
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den That's true. The pneumatics has been too small until now. Will you do a review of the 42043 set when it comes?
What camera are you using for on the model
GoPro 3.
The turn inner wheel musst have a higher angle then the out side wheel because the angle is smaler inside the turn. 19 degrees in cars 😉
lego mogło by zrobić zawieszenie typu mcpherson, to by był dopiero hit:)
the bad thing about this is just that it is close to imposible to make a return to center mechanism on this kind of steering
Yes, but that's not exactly something crucial. Besides, if you get rid of actuators and replace them with some linkage, you could have return-to-center steering.
Sariel's LEGO® Technic Den
The real downside is the simple fact: when front wheel gets slowed (hits the obstacle), the resulting force will be acting on the steering, and will suddenly affect the direction. Even with the classic steering arrangement the drivers of old trucks were told to avoid putting thumbs inside the steering wheel (hold it like a solid disc), as the steering wheel spoke could easily break thumbs when wheel hit the stone or pothole.
Yes, you can use the worm gear but that will prevent it from self-centering, which is important part of vehicle kinematics.
Unrealistic? Thats how most vehicles' steering operates. The problem with lego is you cant fit the joint deep enough into the rim to make it pivot near the center.
Sariel mógłbyś mi podać stronę z której kupiłeś koła i silniczki
Niemam takich
Bricklink. Allegro.
dzięki :)
Could you use it in a live axle?
Yes.
So try it! :D
I am waiting for some results :)
I'm building this but is it possible to camber the wheels
+Some Clan I doubt that.
more more more!
why do you have to use those special wheels to make it work, why wouldn't a different wheel work with that special piece?
JNJdestruction Listen, it isn't the special piece that makes the difference but the wheel.
It's about the rim, to be specific. Most Lego rims are centered within the wheel, so the pivot is moved to the side. This rim is moved to the side, so the pivot can be centered.
Real cars have the rims moved forward because cars have the 2nd type of steering. Lego wheels can be used on either side so that's why.
solution one is the most realistic btw.
This solution results in inverse ackermann, the outside wheel turns sharper than the inside wheel, causing the wheels to fight each other. The only problem with the "standard" LEGO steering is that it results in a lot of scrub radius, this is caused not by the steering geometry but the wheel offset. The "special" lego parts you showed had positive offset wheels to compensate for scrub radius. Had you used those wheels on the regular lego steering parts it would have reduced the observed scrub radius. Scrub radius is caused by an offset between the steering pivot and the tire centerline, real cars try to ensure the contact patch of the tire rotates around the centerline of the tire.
2:12 That is really a lot of anti-Ackerman.
Here for some reason.
This is not good. left wheel when turning left for gear. Thus, they interfere with each other.
I don't see how they interfere.
On your build one of the wheels was rubbing against the gear. This is definetly avoidable by putting more time into the base of the car or not putting the motor in such an orientation. Also, are you from Poland? Because that's what i am thinking judging by .pl at the end of sariel.pl
This was just to clear Lexas question or concern about the wheel turning onto the gear and interfering with the steering mechanism.
Patriks Gailis z
Lexa Kozlov yeah, it messes with the gear, and this could cause corruption
It is just meent as a concept, so you could make a better variant with more space inbetween
If I used an L-motor would I achieve the same results?
Yes.
Brotato Chip
¿How near is this an ideal ackerman?
Rather far, I'm afraid.
2:00: What are fenders?
look it up on google...
The most realistic and the only I have seen is very alike the first with "bad geometry" cars dont have the pivot in the center of the wheel for a reason. And the reason is tires last much longer.
Neat, but your Ackerman angles are inverted.
nie chce odchodzić od tematu ale rogi w twoim rowerze są trochę bez użyteczne - powinny być podniesione bardziej do pozycji pionowej ;)
Są na 10 stopni, tak mi wygodnie. Jak tylko będę chciał się na nie nadziać przy pierwszej glebie, na pewno je podniosę :)
this just scrubs even more on the tires...
Considering that LEGO vehicles weigh hundreds of tons, I'm sure there's some extreme damage ;)
No but you state that the standard system is causing the tires to scrub a lot, while with the pivot system it only scrubs more... just saying
geometry... XD
What is funny about that?
K now make it so it won't over steer
You know there is an steering engine??
+awaken eyes It's called motor, not engine. And yes, it steers, but it does not make pivots realistic.
that`s not very realistic too :))
why won't you challenge yourself try to be the second person who make a golden Lego car but first on youtube
+crabbo the crab How is that a challenge except for your wallet?