They literally would have been ahead to do the exact same thing and just hiring a different brand of goon. (IMHO that would have been the *2nd* dumbest option possible.)
@@0utdoorsman DM "You miss and the fireball fizzles away against the stone wall. Now everyone is staring you and clutching their weapons waiting on your next move..." WotC: "I consume an invisibility potion and sneak away, the masters at Hasbro Castle will not be pleased with me....again."
WotC has been making the worst decisions pretty consistently since they were bought by Hasbro. This, the D&D license thing, wrecking the MTG secondary market, doing silly tie-ins, etc.
Yeah, wtf was WotC thinking? Jesus, talk about killing a mosquito with a stick of dynamite. So stupid. Just offer him a bunch of good stuff to get the cards back.
they don't care about the pr hit anymore after dungeons and dragons scandal. its more about sending a message for the future then compromise. Think about it this way if you got a pack of unreleased cards are you going to upload it or sell it after this? knowing WOTC are going to send the closest thing to modern day mafia after you?
What really baffles me there is that hiring the Pinkertons was their FIRST resort. They have made no attempts to just contact the youtuber and ask him to remove the video, send the cards back or just keep em in the box until the actual release date but no, they literally send goons to him to intimidate the guy and raid his house. So yes, even if the youtuber had knowingly bought stolen cards that would have still been a gross overreaction. With the cards being sent to him though, he had reasonable assumption that if he got them sent then it would be fine.
100%, if he was SPECIFICALLY given docs that said these cards are NOT to be shared, then yes it's his fault and WotC can be pissed. But if the guy genuinely thought it was a box he was supposed to be opening, there is absolutely no justification for their behavior.
Pinkertons have no authority or jurisdiction other than what YOU give them. They have as much power as a regular security guard. Showing up at my door, harassing me over a private sale would be met with a police response. If they tried to enter my home, it would end badly for them.
If some private security company came to my door demanding I give them something I own and is my property I would call the police. Having them charged with trespassing should solve the problem.
Mention to dispatch that they are armed, you don't know who they are, they have no warrant, they are making threats and you are in fear of your life. Now, a possible 2A intervention is on the table. 😁
Yep. I’m in Comms, where we wrestle guns out of the hands of clients who are determined to shoot themselves in the foot. We keep this kind of thing from happening when you bring us into the meeting. We would absolutely suggest offering gifts or, better still, a collab. Fly the guy to their offices and let him meet people. Turn it into a relationship and a positive story where the guy is on your side because he’s getting something special. Also we would slap a client upside the head for being associated with Pinkertons.
@@armorclasshero2103 That is probably true. Or they do but it's a couple of 23 year olds getting paid just over minimum wage to put out media releases. Hasbro would certainly have one but they may not have been invited to the meeting. This happens all the time--I can't tell you how many clients have said to me, "I didn't call Comms about (insert impending disaster) because we don't want to say anything to the public." Buddy, talking to the media is a very small part of what I do. And if you think I'm going to leak, ask yourself why I would ruin my own day. You want me in that meeting so that someone in the room will be protecting your brand like it's their favourite child and pointing out apparently baffling things like that "Goons, hired goons" is not the solution. I've heard that they did try to reach out to this guy by phone and email, and maybe they did and maybe they didn't (and, if they did, who knows what the tone of those emails and voice mails was)... but you still don't send Pinkertons. Jesus, was Blackwater not available?
Some simple communication, perhaps offering him a couple booster boxes of an older set in return for his cooperation, it wouldn't have been hard. The immediate corporate shitkick response is one of the worst possible options.
I recall a while ago some kid named Michael Rowe, created a company called *_'Mike Rowe Soft'_* Of course it raised the eyebrows of the legal department at _MicroSoft_ Microsoft handled it the *right way* by giving the kid money, xbox, games, swag, etc. to stop infringing on their trademark.
Whats not being said here is once they discovered the cards were not theft or the result of a form of intentional leaking they stated they would be compensating the guy.
@@patnor7354 The biggest factor in business naming disputes that is examined in court cases is customer confusion, which that would definitely fall under. With the money the real microsoft has for legal battles, its no stretch that they would push their weight around in this capacity, and even win if the guy decided to fight them about it.
its like what the rich millionaire scientology ha elite neighbors do after they harass you, they pay off all the hells angesl and their offsprings to target and discredit you after they tell the local corrupt nrp cop to forge a foia and tell the locals not to hire you...oh wait i didnt get any payoffs, the locals broke into my apt and gave the wishbook stuff to the ha associates, yah so not the same
I really was surprised to hear that the Pinkerton company stills exists, i would have thought they would have at least re-branded some time in the last 50 years
They were absorbed by Securitas. So where I live, they go by Securitas Security Services. But it's the same company (for better or worse... mostly worse) with different owners at the top. I had no idea they were still went by Pinkertons elsewhere.
This is STILL so wild to me. Send an email, guys. Or if you want to be scary a cease and desist via process server. Hasbro’s director of security risk management used to be a Pinkerton. Keeping it in the “family,” I guess? But, aside from overkill, it seems like a huge conflict of interest in risk management vendors. Big yikes all around.
Man, wouldn't that just be a kick in the pants, if the Pinkertons got hired just because the guy in charge of the situation wanted to make work for his contacts there?
Doing something as simple as a basic press release would have been better: "Hey MTG fans, we're aware of a video showing cards from a set that has not been released yet. This appears to have been the result of a shipping error by a vendor. We're sorry that some of the surprise is gone, but we promise there is still plenty you haven't seen yet. Thank you for your continued support of MTG." Even doing nothing would have been better than what they opted to do.
Yeah, it's like - remember that time at the 2002 E3 where Sega's reference models for PSO Ep III CARD Revolution came up missing, so they loaded up the Sega Assault Vehicle with a bunch of armed goons and started tear-a**ing around LA - knocking skulls until the culprit finally coughed them up? No? Oh, right - yeah, they just put up notices on their website and via fan sites and journals asking for them back like sane people, then commissioned a new set to replace them in case the originals never turned back up. Because that's what you do when trying to run a professional organization and appreciated the people who bought their products. At least when Sega and Nintendo were dealing with the Yakuza back in the day, they at least kept it to corporate sabotage and developer strong-arming. They didn't sick Majima on the own customers.
Yes, but that would require a company that is community minded, sane, has restraint, isn't seemingly managed by psychopaths. That's asking far too much.
It was a gift on a silver plate to pump the hype before the May release. And they didin't even see the opportunity right there at their feet. "Send in the Pinkertons." Truly a Games Workshop level of corporate hubris and lunacy.
People keep telling fandoms that these companies hate them. The journalists who cover these fandoms tell the audience that they hate them. The companies will outright tell you that they hate you and don't buy our products. Is it ANY surprise at all that, given the choice - this company chose to sent armed thugs to raid a fan's house and threaten him - rather than reaching out and treating them like a human being? How many times does it have to be said. They hate you.
The dumbest thing is that WotC could have made this a PR win instead of a disaster. They needed to send someone to the door, but god damn DONT send the Pinkertons! Just send a single official looking guy to butter them up first instead of goons!
Hasbro has been around since the 1920s. This has probably been their preferred method of dealing with these types of situations for a century and they don't understand how social media has changed things.
My last name is Pinkerton.... idk how to feel about this. Like, does anyone wanna send me accidental unreleased cards? I don't even play magic but someone needs to set an example about what will happen if they keep sending goons to peoples houses. *bang bang bang* "Are you cops?" "Do you have a warrent?" "What did you do to the lock on my gate?" "Are you wearing level 4 plates?" "You have 30 seconds to get off my property. Either brimg more men or don't come back." And clearly folks, never open ya door and always have cameras! Let's afroman these mfs!
I think, if I recall rightly, in Streisand's case, it was a photograph she was objecting to... some beachfront photos that happened to include a shot (or shots?) of her house, which pretty much nobody knew until she raised a stink about it, and suddenly everyone was eager to see the photos.
It's important to emphasize that it wasn't "a photo of her house" she was mad about. That implies her house was the subject of the photograph. What actually happened was a government project to photograph the coastline (surprisingly) took a lot of photographs of the coastline, and her house *happened* to be visible in one of the large sequence of photographs.
IIRC the picture had only been viewed like 10 times when it was taken to court and half of them were her own lawyers. after the court case was brought it had thousands of downloads within like a day.
Lol sometimes I wonder if anyone is really in charge at these companies or if they are just a bunch of departments that operate together as a giant headless chicken.
Being a former VP of a fortune 500 company made up of numerous divisions I can confirm your suspensions. My full time job was to just try and keep said divisions on the same page.
@@starrywizdom You know Giant Chickens are real, dont cross them. I did not tell you this, but there is a video on YT of one giant Chicken leaveing a hen house, i did not say this, I did not think this..
Sadly, I think this is a done and done thing. The situation is "resolved" and unless the guy goes after WotC I dont think anything is going to come of it because he willingly let those guys in and handed over the materials. So, unless he has evidence that they strong armed him which knowing pinkerton histroy wouldnt surprise me there really is not much that can be done here.
I live in a Stand Your Ground state. They'd all be on t shirts. I have so many weapons in my house (some of which I have absolutely no business having) that they could send 100 men and they'd all be gone.
@@RandomPerson-nd2ey I transferred to pathfinder 1.0, it's basically plug and play with d&d 3.5, but a bit more powerful. I'm not claiming they are saints, but I'm unaware of this level of stupidity.
@@sinisterthoughts2896On his other channel (Roll of Law) he discussed the new ORC licence put out by paizo. Turns out it's the same to worse than what wotc put out. Sadly no one else seems to notice.
I don't think it's illegal to make an unrealistic threat of legal action... ? "Hey stranger, give me your car or I'll sue you for not giving it to me, and I'll get the judge to throw you in prison for 10 years for being mean." You're supposed to just know that that's not a realistic outcome.
@@OptimalOwl That is a good point. However, they didn't just make an unrealistic legal threat. They brought a bunch of armed goons and then made the threat. I have no clue how the law works in such a situation, especially not American law, but there may be some sort of law on intimidation that could have been breached.
You need to look into some of the heavy-handed things wizards of the Coast has been up to lately as soon as Hasbro realized that wizards of the Coast was their most profitable division by a large margin they started exploiting it to it an extent that has become completely toxic and it's driving away fans of their products
Absolutely 0 and technically now the guy has a lotta possible legal options in front of him now. Not only that it’s going to kill a chunk of the player base. This coulda been solved with a C&D and a request to take the video/s down. That’s the simplest solution.
Same as drug cartels. They got guns, and can get away with using them, cause they pay police to look the other way. Guys are literal union busters, and have historically thrown grenades at children on occasions.
It's just mind boggling to me how they handled this. Just pick up the phone, ask him to remove the video, throw all the free shit at him, send him and his wife to the bahamas for a week, invite them to the yearly corporate Xmas party, make him an honorary employee for all i care. Whatever, just keep throwing free shit at him. Done, and buried. If they're lucky the guy would have made a video about it, raving over what a great company they are. But no, they sent a bunch bounty hunters on his ass and threaten him with jail time. Now this tiny, easily fixable issue is out the door and around the world. They better come up with a great settlement because a free set of cards and and an all inclusive vacation is not gonna cut it anymore.
I had to look up Wizards of the Coast because I was totally unfamiliar with this community. I then watched the video and found the whole story quite fascinating. Sound like the company completely went off the rails in how they handled things.
You should look up the Dungeons and Dragons SRD issue. The controversy related to that one may have killed one of WotC's most profitable intellectual properties...
How can the management team at WOTC miss read their audience so badly twice in such a short period of time with respect to their two largest properties.
Stupidity and I'm assuming the same thing that keeps making kel-tec keep making some of the weirdest god damn mechanical devices on this planet... Illicit substances
"Twice"? They're pretty consistent with making dumb decisions, and they've made more than a couple, big and small. my favourite was that their very first action to take after that whole OGL debacle was to change their social media logo into a bitcoin. This is funny to me.
1) It's Wizard's own responsibility to stop these things from leaking, sending the Pinkertons was madness 2) They could have just offered to buy the cards back from the guy
Hell, a small youtuber talking about MTG would probably have eagerly handed over the items and taken down the videos if offered a short term sponsorship deal instead. A couple months of sponsorship would be a tiny cost to WOTC, but a huge flex for a small MTG youtuber
CEO should have sent someone from upper management to deal with this: he probably would have taken an exclusive interview in exchange, probably didn't even need to pay him what they payed the Pinkies! Both WotC and GWS are notoriously ham handed when dealing with their respective communities: perhaps its a function of the dark fiction they spend their days immersed in.
The Federal Trade Commission website has an article titled "What To Do if You’re Billed for Things You Never Got, or You Get Unordered Products" Which states quite explicitly: "By law, companies can’t send unordered merchandise to you, then demand payment. That means you never have to pay for things you get but didn’t order. You also don’t need to return unordered merchandise. You’re legally entitled to keep it as a free gift." This is a government agency explaining the law in plain text. Assuming that the purchaser didn't break any laws to obtain the cards Wizards is so in the wrong here it's not even funny. I once got almost half a dozen free tshirts this way because they sent me the bag of 6 instead of the single one that I ordered.
Yup. WotC just committed theft via intimidation, essentially the same as if a mugger claimed you had their wallet and flashed a gun to make you give it up. The TH-camr made the choice to comply and deescalate the situation which was probably the smartest thing to do even if it doesn't feel like a win. If it were me in that situation I'd have told the thugs to f off and slammed the door in their face, then been ready to shoot said faces if they tried to break in or set fire to my house. Which of course they'd have done because they're the Pinkertons.
having a security company willing to put in work, with the kind if "we will fuck you up for fun AND profit" reputations that the Pinkerton company has can be useful for some niche situations. these situations include "im a jeweller owner who just bought a bunch of diamonds and gold, but theres been a string of robberies in the area", "hello, I am the oil company and some locals have been swinging axes at people on the work site. make this stop so nobody dies", or "i need an executive protection company who will scare people with dudes that look like their last job was overthrowing a democratically elected dictatorship for the united fruit company". notably this notably does not include, "some poor bastard in our warehouse sent the wrong box of cards to some nerd who plays our beloved game on the internet... this lucky customer is now posting his fun new surprise to the internet, and its killing our marketing".
After all the recent missteps Wotc has taken, if I were them I would be doing anything and everything oldschoolmtg asks of me. Anything to restore public image and keep him from sueing. But I guess they don't care? They don't think he'll sue? They're PR department has to either be on fire or completely unmanned.
They could have gotten away with a much newer box that Arabian Nights BEFORE they brought in the PInkertons...it is probably going to cost them a full, uncut misprint sheet from an early edition in a very nice Frame. If they would have offered him his own card in a future set he probably would have done just about anything they asked.
I don't know if they are under new management or what but they are pissing people off all over the inter-web. Sad really. Thank you Ian, this was a really good representation of what went down and I agree with your solution. People just don't talk anymore, they just go off. Hope this finds you and yours happy and healthy.
i would have told them to pi$$ off and i would have kept the cards had they called and asked nice then we could have talked the second they threw out the first threat they lose all good faith
How does WOTC still own the property if it was sold by a retailer? Does the retailer not own the property it sells? I don't see how it's the buyer's fault or legal reasonability because a retailer sold earlier then it was supposed to.
There is probably some loophole, because the product legally was still under seal and could not be sold. But that still does not make the youtuber the bad guy.
Something similar happened when the last edition of The Walking Dead comicbook was coming out. One comic bookstore received their order a few days early and started selling them. So, of course it was leaked on the internet real fast. Image Comics did the right thing. They released a statement basically saying, 'Yo we fucked up, we made a mistake somewhere and shit got sent out to early and of course our small retailer started selling a handful of copies. Enjoy it if you already have the comic, but please keep it on the low and don't spoil it for others.' Done. Nobody got sued, nothing came out of it. WOTC is being very, very dramatic about this.
The simple answer is they don't own the property and upon sending those cards to the TH-camr the seller didn't own them either. In the USA if you're sent something by mistake you get refunded your money AND get to keep whatever was sent to you. WotC committed theft via intimidation (Pinkertons are infamous for arson and murder) the same way a mugger who flashes a gun to get you to give him your wallet does.
The fact that WotC and Hasbro used the Pinkertons so readily is deeply concerning. I wonder how many people they used the Pinkertons on during the OGL2.0 Crisis. How many were silenced under threat of violence from WotC? It's been scandal after scandal with WotC, and this only cements people not wanting to buy their products. Guy gets cards legitimately, and suddenly mercs are at your door. It's wild! Imagine how many people had Pinkertons were knocking on their because of a mistake that WotC made. I hope they get sued into the ground for this. WotC needs to be shut down, and Hasbro needs to be humbled.
🎶 They say in Kamigawa, there are no neutrals there. You’ll either be a planeswalker or a thug for J. H. Blair. Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?” 🎶 Seriously though, it’s wild that WotC has decided to go battle of Blair Mountain to protect their marketing strategy.
Ironically, for a business that claims to specialise in 'loss prevention' & 'detective/investigative work,' Pinkertons did neither... I've known enforcers for drug dealers with more subtlety than those clowns. I'm genuinely puzzled how a big corporate with in-house legal teams did _NO_ investigation and ignored the _plethora_ of reasonable & logical options to resolve this... off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen ways to retrieve the cards _AND_ get WoTC some desperately-needed good press in the bargain. The guy is actively & organically promoting your overpriced & increasingly unpopular products _at no cost to WoTC/Hasbro..._ so you reward him by sending goons to intimidate his elderly neighbours & take his property under false pretences?? Over _playing cards??!!_
It's like someone told them this was the only option they should never take, and they heard it as the only option they could take. Good lord. WotC has to be doing an any% speed run of the death of their company's reputation at this point. You'd think after the whole D&D OGL fiasco, they would have hired a proper PR person/ firm to manage these types of things since clearly the person making these decisions has been hit in the head with a golf club a few dozen too many times.
Imagine being a Magic Card fan and getting your own card named Secret Keeper!!! He’d scream so hard the Cheeto dust would fly off his fingers and his mom’s house would jump off the basement he was lurking in! Seriously though, I’m not even a fan of the game and I absolutely know that would be awesome!
Honestly, WotC didn't even need the product back. Just pay the guy off and ask him to sign an embargo agreement. "Keep the cards, set your video to private until the official release day, and here's some cool stuff to pay you for your trouble"
Once the cards are sent to a retailer the parent company doesn't own them anymore. By USA law, if you're sent something other than what you ordered you get a refund AND get to keep the mistaken items. WotC just committed theft via intimidation like they were muggers flashing a gun to get someone's wallet.
By one of those curious concidences, I watched 3 Runkle videos this evening. The first, your speech at the CSSA, was enjoyable. The second one that popped up was what I'll nicname "The Goat Video." That was, apart from any other considerations both interesting and entertaining, with a few points of the maze of contract law thrown in for good measure. Then, TH-cam offered up this video, the "Pinkertons and the Cards" video. And after watching that one, I found myself wondering just how dumb does a niche company that depends heavily on a specific subset of the community have to be to send Goons out to the home of a guy who happened to buy a package of cards. I confess to knowing absolutely nothing about the cards, the company, or the background. But if ever there was a "stepped on the crank with the old golf shoes" decision, this sure was it. Thank you Ian. This was a most enjoyable cross section of the life of a "legal beagle" and one that left a smile on my face. The last surely gets 9.5 from for from the sublime to the absurd.
I honestly think that someone just had a power trip and I would fire and public-shame them if I was WOTC. Like "I am a part of this huge company, those cards are MINE and I hola all the power over unworthy pllebs that buy them." kind of trip. I don't think they even considered the public image. They just acted as a king ruling over their domain.
I don’t even game, never have, but I find you, and your explanation, absolutely fascinating. Thank you. PS I don’t game, but I do watch Lawyers and Dragons. Hey, does that make me a gamer? Anyway…I can’t wait for L&D to return on May 27! Be there…or be square. 🤣😂
The mailed fist should almost never be the first option. Opt for the velvet glove. I like how you put it..."they could have done....but, instead, they chose violence." I'm not a gamer in any form, but this just rankles me since many of my friends are.
should've countered the pinkertons with a single color black or white deck. that way he could've gotten like 5 monsters on the field in his first turn.
I feel like most people put in that situation would have been happy to comply with just standard wrong-delivery compensation (you get to keep what was sent, plus we give you what you initially ordered), plus maybe a box to ask to private the footage and not release any more until close to set release
"Maybe it's not a good idea to go after your community" To be fair, that's a common (anti-)marketing strategy nowadays, but usually they use "journalists". They did that with the D&D movie, too.
THey could have easily asked for him to take the video down and re-release it when the cards actually came out, and to not publish anything more... and ask what he wanted in exchange for that... and likely would not have cost them much. The sending goons to steal his property (as I assume he bought them legally) opens them up to lots of stuff. Totally separate of reputation damage.
Wizards of the Coast choosing the dumbest option possible is par for the course.
They literally would have been ahead to do the exact same thing and just hiring a different brand of goon. (IMHO that would have been the *2nd* dumbest option possible.)
DM, "You find yourself in a delicate situation where diplomacy is of the utmost importance."
WoTC, "I cast "Fireball!"
@@0utdoorsman DM "You miss and the fireball fizzles away against the stone wall. Now everyone is staring you and clutching their weapons waiting on your next move..."
WotC: "I consume an invisibility potion and sneak away, the masters at Hasbro Castle will not be pleased with me....again."
@@forposterity4031 "Cobra, RETREAT!"
@@benjaminshropshire2900 The Wagner group was too busy committing war crimes so the Pinkertons were the next best option.
WotC has been making the worst decisions pretty consistently since they were bought by Hasbro. This, the D&D license thing, wrecking the MTG secondary market, doing silly tie-ins, etc.
Dont forget removing half species..
"Hold on, what's that phrase you used, 'not intentionally harming the community?' Those words each make sense individually, but..."
Magic 30th.
Don't forget comparing black people to Orcs. When you're so progressive you sound incredibly racist.
@@milktobo7418 they’ve done enough crap so stop repeating nonsense.
Yeah, wtf was WotC thinking? Jesus, talk about killing a mosquito with a stick of dynamite. So stupid. Just offer him a bunch of good stuff to get the cards back.
they don't care about the pr hit anymore after dungeons and dragons scandal. its more about sending a message for the future then compromise. Think about it this way if you got a pack of unreleased cards are you going to upload it or sell it after this? knowing WOTC are going to send the closest thing to modern day mafia after you?
What really baffles me there is that hiring the Pinkertons was their FIRST resort. They have made no attempts to just contact the youtuber and ask him to remove the video, send the cards back or just keep em in the box until the actual release date but no, they literally send goons to him to intimidate the guy and raid his house. So yes, even if the youtuber had knowingly bought stolen cards that would have still been a gross overreaction. With the cards being sent to him though, he had reasonable assumption that if he got them sent then it would be fine.
100%, if he was SPECIFICALLY given docs that said these cards are NOT to be shared, then yes it's his fault and WotC can be pissed. But if the guy genuinely thought it was a box he was supposed to be opening, there is absolutely no justification for their behavior.
Pinkertons have no authority or jurisdiction other than what YOU give them. They have as much power as a regular security guard. Showing up at my door, harassing me over a private sale would be met with a police response. If they tried to enter my home, it would end badly for them.
If some private security company came to my door demanding I give them something I own and is my property I would call the police. Having them charged with trespassing should solve the problem.
Mention to dispatch that they are armed, you don't know who they are, they have no warrant, they are making threats and you are in fear of your life. Now, a possible 2A intervention is on the table. 😁
I just read a blurb about this and thought it was a Babylon Bee spoof
Yep. I’m in Comms, where we wrestle guns out of the hands of clients who are determined to shoot themselves in the foot. We keep this kind of thing from happening when you bring us into the meeting. We would absolutely suggest offering gifts or, better still, a collab. Fly the guy to their offices and let him meet people. Turn it into a relationship and a positive story where the guy is on your side because he’s getting something special. Also we would slap a client upside the head for being associated with Pinkertons.
As far as anyone can tell they don't seem to have a functioning comms dept.
@@armorclasshero2103 That is probably true. Or they do but it's a couple of 23 year olds getting paid just over minimum wage to put out media releases. Hasbro would certainly have one but they may not have been invited to the meeting. This happens all the time--I can't tell you how many clients have said to me, "I didn't call Comms about (insert impending disaster) because we don't want to say anything to the public." Buddy, talking to the media is a very small part of what I do. And if you think I'm going to leak, ask yourself why I would ruin my own day. You want me in that meeting so that someone in the room will be protecting your brand like it's their favourite child and pointing out apparently baffling things like that "Goons, hired goons" is not the solution. I've heard that they did try to reach out to this guy by phone and email, and maybe they did and maybe they didn't (and, if they did, who knows what the tone of those emails and voice mails was)... but you still don't send Pinkertons. Jesus, was Blackwater not available?
This.
Communication breakdown is fatal!!! You have an Important job!!!
Some simple communication, perhaps offering him a couple booster boxes of an older set in return for his cooperation, it wouldn't have been hard. The immediate corporate shitkick response is one of the worst possible options.
I recall a while ago some kid named Michael Rowe, created a company called *_'Mike Rowe Soft'_*
Of course it raised the eyebrows of the legal department at _MicroSoft_
Microsoft handled it the *right way* by giving the kid money, xbox, games, swag, etc. to stop infringing on their trademark.
Whats not being said here is once they discovered the cards were not theft or the result of a form of intentional leaking they stated they would be compensating the guy.
That is not infringing...
@@patnor7354 The biggest factor in business naming disputes that is examined in court cases is customer confusion, which that would definitely fall under. With the money the real microsoft has for legal battles, its no stretch that they would push their weight around in this capacity, and even win if the guy decided to fight them about it.
its like what the rich millionaire scientology ha elite neighbors do after they harass you, they pay off all the hells angesl and their offsprings to target and discredit you after they tell the local corrupt nrp cop to forge a foia and tell the locals not to hire you...oh wait i didnt get any payoffs, the locals broke into my apt and gave the wishbook stuff to the ha associates, yah so not the same
WotC is going all out on development & play test of their new Stasi RPG...
I really was surprised to hear that the Pinkerton company stills exists, i would have thought they would have at least re-branded some time in the last 50 years
The people they offer services to are the exact type of people that would want to hire people like the Pinkertons.
I'm surprised too.
They were absorbed by Securitas. So where I live, they go by Securitas Security Services. But it's the same company (for better or worse... mostly worse) with different owners at the top. I had no idea they were still went by Pinkertons elsewhere.
no need to rebrand, their branding is accurate
they sort of have, mostly they do union busting for the likes of amazon these days.
This is STILL so wild to me. Send an email, guys. Or if you want to be scary a cease and desist via process server.
Hasbro’s director of security risk management used to be a Pinkerton. Keeping it in the “family,” I guess? But, aside from overkill, it seems like a huge conflict of interest in risk management vendors. Big yikes all around.
Ooh that explains something. He choose the option he knows best, just not the smart one...
Man, wouldn't that just be a kick in the pants, if the Pinkertons got hired just because the guy in charge of the situation wanted to make work for his contacts there?
Christ, that's disturbing...
Hope he gets fired for this stupidity.
They did multipel times and they got Ignored.
Doing something as simple as a basic press release would have been better:
"Hey MTG fans, we're aware of a video showing cards from a set that has not been released yet. This appears to have been the result of a shipping error by a vendor. We're sorry that some of the surprise is gone, but we promise there is still plenty you haven't seen yet. Thank you for your continued support of MTG."
Even doing nothing would have been better than what they opted to do.
Literally THE END.
And, yet, here we are...
Yeah, it's like - remember that time at the 2002 E3 where Sega's reference models for PSO Ep III CARD Revolution came up missing, so they loaded up the Sega Assault Vehicle with a bunch of armed goons and started tear-a**ing around LA - knocking skulls until the culprit finally coughed them up? No? Oh, right - yeah, they just put up notices on their website and via fan sites and journals asking for them back like sane people, then commissioned a new set to replace them in case the originals never turned back up. Because that's what you do when trying to run a professional organization and appreciated the people who bought their products.
At least when Sega and Nintendo were dealing with the Yakuza back in the day, they at least kept it to corporate sabotage and developer strong-arming. They didn't sick Majima on the own customers.
The fact they choose to do that kind of thing without a second thoughts is a prove that sh*t might be a normal thing to do in that company…
Yes, but that would require a company that is community minded, sane, has restraint, isn't seemingly managed by psychopaths.
That's asking far too much.
It was a gift on a silver plate to pump the hype before the May release. And they didin't even see the opportunity right there at their feet.
"Send in the Pinkertons."
Truly a Games Workshop level of corporate hubris and lunacy.
People keep telling fandoms that these companies hate them. The journalists who cover these fandoms tell the audience that they hate them. The companies will outright tell you that they hate you and don't buy our products. Is it ANY surprise at all that, given the choice - this company chose to sent armed thugs to raid a fan's house and threaten him - rather than reaching out and treating them like a human being? How many times does it have to be said. They hate you.
The lawsiut is going to be amazeballs
The dumbest thing is that WotC could have made this a PR win instead of a disaster.
They needed to send someone to the door, but god damn DONT send the Pinkertons! Just send a single official looking guy to butter them up first instead of goons!
So many different ways to deal with this. They picked probably the worst
Hasbro has been around since the 1920s. This has probably been their preferred method of dealing with these types of situations for a century and they don't understand how social media has changed things.
Wizards of the Coast just put the "ICKS" in "PR".
😂😂😂
I see what you did there. 😏
🙌👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Send wizards and come heavily runed.
I think a visit from Ebenezer McCoy would be totally appropriate
My last name is Pinkerton.... idk how to feel about this.
Like, does anyone wanna send me accidental unreleased cards? I don't even play magic but someone needs to set an example about what will happen if they keep sending goons to peoples houses.
*bang bang bang*
"Are you cops?"
"Do you have a warrent?"
"What did you do to the lock on my gate?"
"Are you wearing level 4 plates?"
"You have 30 seconds to get off my property. Either brimg more men or don't come back."
And clearly folks, never open ya door and always have cameras! Let's afroman these mfs!
I thought it was a joke when I heard. I thought the person who told me was referring to Peaky Blinders 😂
I think, if I recall rightly, in Streisand's case, it was a photograph she was objecting to... some beachfront photos that happened to include a shot (or shots?) of her house, which pretty much nobody knew until she raised a stink about it, and suddenly everyone was eager to see the photos.
It's important to emphasize that it wasn't "a photo of her house" she was mad about. That implies her house was the subject of the photograph. What actually happened was a government project to photograph the coastline (surprisingly) took a lot of photographs of the coastline, and her house *happened* to be visible in one of the large sequence of photographs.
IIRC the picture had only been viewed like 10 times when it was taken to court and half of them were her own lawyers.
after the court case was brought it had thousands of downloads within like a day.
Lol sometimes I wonder if anyone is really in charge at these companies or if they are just a bunch of departments that operate together as a giant headless chicken.
I think you just described most companies, though don't forget the part about throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks
😆😆😆
I think the League of Giant Headless Chickens would resent that remark. Bwawk! 🐓
Being a former VP of a fortune 500 company made up of numerous divisions I can confirm your suspensions. My full time job was to just try and keep said divisions on the same page.
@@starrywizdom You know Giant Chickens are real, dont cross them. I did not tell you this, but there is a video on YT of one giant Chicken leaveing a hen house, i did not say this, I did not think this..
I hope you continue to follow this story. It’s fascinating to say the least. Thanks. 🤜🏻
Sadly, I think this is a done and done thing. The situation is "resolved" and unless the guy goes after WotC I dont think anything is going to come of it because he willingly let those guys in and handed over the materials. So, unless he has evidence that they strong armed him which knowing pinkerton histroy wouldnt surprise me there really is not much that can be done here.
He needed Clint Eastwood!
I live in a Stand Your Ground state. They'd all be on t shirts. I have so many weapons in my house (some of which I have absolutely no business having) that they could send 100 men and they'd all be gone.
Wizards of the Coast did go to their vault to dig out some vintage stuff to send and found the Pinkertons.
😂
Every time I start to really miss playing MTG something like this comes out and I'm glad that I quit all over again. Thanks for covering this!
Same.
Glad I sold off my MTG cards
Yeah, started buying D&D stuff, learned of drama like this among other things, and immediately stopped.
@@RandomPerson-nd2ey I transferred to pathfinder 1.0, it's basically plug and play with d&d 3.5, but a bit more powerful. I'm not claiming they are saints, but I'm unaware of this level of stupidity.
@@sinisterthoughts2896On his other channel (Roll of Law) he discussed the new ORC licence put out by paizo. Turns out it's the same to worse than what wotc put out. Sadly no one else seems to notice.
How is this not theft? Hope he lawyers up and files a police report.
Extortion is more like it. It was theft by use or threatening force.
I don't think it's illegal to make an unrealistic threat of legal action... ?
"Hey stranger, give me your car or I'll sue you for not giving it to me, and I'll get the judge to throw you in prison for 10 years for being mean."
You're supposed to just know that that's not a realistic outcome.
@OptimalOwl that's fraud, extortion and conversion.
@@OptimalOwl That is a good point. However, they didn't just make an unrealistic legal threat. They brought a bunch of armed goons and then made the threat. I have no clue how the law works in such a situation, especially not American law, but there may be some sort of law on intimidation that could have been breached.
@@Gjellebel I would think it could be theft by intimidation which I have heard tossed around as an offense.
You need to look into some of the heavy-handed things wizards of the Coast has been up to lately as soon as Hasbro realized that wizards of the Coast was their most profitable division by a large margin they started exploiting it to it an extent that has become completely toxic and it's driving away fans of their products
Long live Paizo.
Runkle's been diving into ALL the WotC nonsense over on Role of Law!
I forgot that he was involved in that
@@RenataKleinRK especially when they are already doing it yes I was wrong but I will also own my own errors and keep the record of them.
@@RenataKleinRK hah! I get it. Don't worry, your clever wordplay is not lost to the winds.
Remember that Pinkerton agents cannot threaten you if they have bled out on your lawn.
I hope he sues the pants off them!
So just curious; on what authority does the Pinkerton company have to steal from individuals?
Short answer, they don’t.
Absolutely 0 and technically now the guy has a lotta possible legal options in front of him now. Not only that it’s going to kill a chunk of the player base. This coulda been solved with a C&D and a request to take the video/s down. That’s the simplest solution.
@@GamblerofFates A C&D would not have any legal leg to stand on unless he had signed a confidentiality agreement or had induced the mistaken shipment.
@@b.s.864 lotta lay people/ average joes wouldn’t know that unless consulting with a lawyer. It would’ve been the less violent option.
Same as drug cartels. They got guns, and can get away with using them, cause they pay police to look the other way. Guys are literal union busters, and have historically thrown grenades at children on occasions.
Bud Light: I have the worst PR disaster ever.
WOTC: Hold my Bud Light.
It's just mind boggling to me how they handled this. Just pick up the phone, ask him to remove the video, throw all the free shit at him, send him and his wife to the bahamas for a week, invite them to the yearly corporate Xmas party, make him an honorary employee for all i care. Whatever, just keep throwing free shit at him.
Done, and buried. If they're lucky the guy would have made a video about it, raving over what a great company they are. But no, they sent a bunch bounty hunters on his ass and threaten him with jail time. Now this tiny, easily fixable issue is out the door and around the world. They better come up with a great settlement because a free set of cards and and an all inclusive vacation is not gonna cut it anymore.
I had to look up Wizards of the Coast because I was totally unfamiliar with this community. I then watched the video and found the whole story quite fascinating. Sound like the company completely went off the rails in how they handled things.
You should look up the Dungeons and Dragons SRD issue. The controversy related to that one may have killed one of WotC's most profitable intellectual properties...
The problem is that they would've had to have been on the rails to go off of them...
How can the management team at WOTC miss read their audience so badly twice in such a short period of time with respect to their two largest properties.
Stupidity and I'm assuming the same thing that keeps making kel-tec keep making some of the weirdest god damn mechanical devices on this planet... Illicit substances
@@a_guyontheinternetfor kel-tec it's their gimmick. For WotC, they are ran by corpos installed by hasbro who have zero history in these fields.
There are no adults in charge. Its fully grown children running a lot of these media companies these days.
Incompetence is rewarded in the corpo world so long as you lick enough boot.
"Twice"? They're pretty consistent with making dumb decisions, and they've made more than a couple, big and small. my favourite was that their very first action to take after that whole OGL debacle was to change their social media logo into a bitcoin.
This is funny to me.
1) It's Wizard's own responsibility to stop these things from leaking, sending the Pinkertons was madness
2) They could have just offered to buy the cards back from the guy
I totally want to be a customer of a company that sends thugs after me if they screw up.
If I took the CEO job at WotC I would clean house. The company has turned into an unmitigated disaster.
Hell, a small youtuber talking about MTG would probably have eagerly handed over the items and taken down the videos if offered a short term sponsorship deal instead. A couple months of sponsorship would be a tiny cost to WOTC, but a huge flex for a small MTG youtuber
CEO should have sent someone from upper management to deal with this: he probably would have taken an exclusive interview in exchange, probably didn't even need to pay him what they payed the Pinkies! Both WotC and GWS are notoriously ham handed when dealing with their respective communities: perhaps its a function of the dark fiction they spend their days immersed in.
The Federal Trade Commission website has an article titled "What To Do if You’re Billed for Things You Never Got, or You Get Unordered Products"
Which states quite explicitly: "By law, companies can’t send unordered merchandise to you, then demand payment. That means you never have to pay for things you get but didn’t order. You also don’t need to return unordered merchandise. You’re legally entitled to keep it as a free gift."
This is a government agency explaining the law in plain text. Assuming that the purchaser didn't break any laws to obtain the cards Wizards is so in the wrong here it's not even funny. I once got almost half a dozen free tshirts this way because they sent me the bag of 6 instead of the single one that I ordered.
Yup. WotC just committed theft via intimidation, essentially the same as if a mugger claimed you had their wallet and flashed a gun to make you give it up.
The TH-camr made the choice to comply and deescalate the situation which was probably the smartest thing to do even if it doesn't feel like a win. If it were me in that situation I'd have told the thugs to f off and slammed the door in their face, then been ready to shoot said faces if they tried to break in or set fire to my house. Which of course they'd have done because they're the Pinkertons.
having a security company willing to put in work, with the kind if "we will fuck you up for fun AND profit" reputations that the Pinkerton company has can be useful for some niche situations. these situations include "im a jeweller owner who just bought a bunch of diamonds and gold, but theres been a string of robberies in the area", "hello, I am the oil company and some locals have been swinging axes at people on the work site. make this stop so nobody dies", or "i need an executive protection company who will scare people with dudes that look like their last job was overthrowing a democratically elected dictatorship for the united fruit company". notably this notably does not include, "some poor bastard in our warehouse sent the wrong box of cards to some nerd who plays our beloved game on the internet... this lucky customer is now posting his fun new surprise to the internet, and its killing our marketing".
After all the recent missteps Wotc has taken, if I were them I would be doing anything and everything oldschoolmtg asks of me. Anything to restore public image and keep him from sueing. But I guess they don't care? They don't think he'll sue? They're PR department has to either be on fire or completely unmanned.
They could have gotten away with a much newer box that Arabian Nights BEFORE they brought in the PInkertons...it is probably going to cost them a full, uncut misprint sheet from an early edition in a very nice Frame. If they would have offered him his own card in a future set he probably would have done just about anything they asked.
Wizards of the Coast ruined everything that was good about anything they touch.
I saw Clownfish TV cover this, but I never thought you would too. Small world. 😅 I hope this guy wins a lawsuit against them.
Oh my, an installment of "Let's Watch Hasbro Kill their Cash Cows" has surfaced on your main channel! That was not on my bingo card...
I don't know if they are under new management or what but they are pissing people off all over the inter-web. Sad really. Thank you Ian, this was a really good representation of what went down and I agree with your solution. People just don't talk anymore, they just go off. Hope this finds you and yours happy and healthy.
i would have told them to pi$$ off and i would have kept the cards had they called and asked nice then we could have talked the second they threw out the first threat they lose all good faith
The problem with that is they'd probably beat the living crap out of you and possibly kill you.
How does WOTC still own the property if it was sold by a retailer? Does the retailer not own the property it sells? I don't see how it's the buyer's fault or legal reasonability because a retailer sold earlier then it was supposed to.
Let the lawsuits commence!
There is probably some loophole, because the product legally was still under seal and could not be sold. But that still does not make the youtuber the bad guy.
It depends on distribution agreement
Something similar happened when the last edition of The Walking Dead comicbook was coming out.
One comic bookstore received their order a few days early and started selling them. So, of course it was leaked on the internet real fast. Image Comics did the right thing.
They released a statement basically saying, 'Yo we fucked up, we made a mistake somewhere and shit got sent out to early and of course our small retailer started selling a handful of copies. Enjoy it if you already have the comic, but please keep it on the low and don't spoil it for others.'
Done. Nobody got sued, nothing came out of it.
WOTC is being very, very dramatic about this.
The simple answer is they don't own the property and upon sending those cards to the TH-camr the seller didn't own them either. In the USA if you're sent something by mistake you get refunded your money AND get to keep whatever was sent to you. WotC committed theft via intimidation (Pinkertons are infamous for arson and murder) the same way a mugger who flashes a gun to get you to give him your wallet does.
What you suggest makes good sense. It's probably why Wizards did it differently.
The fact that WotC and Hasbro used the Pinkertons so readily is deeply concerning. I wonder how many people they used the Pinkertons on during the OGL2.0 Crisis. How many were silenced under threat of violence from WotC? It's been scandal after scandal with WotC, and this only cements people not wanting to buy their products. Guy gets cards legitimately, and suddenly mercs are at your door. It's wild! Imagine how many people had Pinkertons were knocking on their because of a mistake that WotC made. I hope they get sued into the ground for this. WotC needs to be shut down, and Hasbro needs to be humbled.
🎶 They say in Kamigawa, there are no neutrals there. You’ll either be a planeswalker or a thug for J. H. Blair. Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?” 🎶
Seriously though, it’s wild that WotC has decided to go battle of Blair Mountain to protect their marketing strategy.
Ironically, for a business that claims to specialise in 'loss prevention' & 'detective/investigative work,' Pinkertons did neither... I've known enforcers for drug dealers with more subtlety than those clowns.
I'm genuinely puzzled how a big corporate with in-house legal teams did _NO_ investigation and ignored the _plethora_ of reasonable & logical options to resolve this... off the top of my head, I can think of a dozen ways to retrieve the cards _AND_ get WoTC some desperately-needed good press in the bargain. The guy is actively & organically promoting your overpriced & increasingly unpopular products _at no cost to WoTC/Hasbro..._ so you reward him by sending goons to intimidate his elderly neighbours & take his property under false pretences?? Over _playing cards??!!_
Could you imagine the absolute disaster this could have been if the hired corporate goons had showed up to the house of the wrong type of dude
It's like someone told them this was the only option they should never take, and they heard it as the only option they could take. Good lord. WotC has to be doing an any% speed run of the death of their company's reputation at this point. You'd think after the whole D&D OGL fiasco, they would have hired a proper PR person/ firm to manage these types of things since clearly the person making these decisions has been hit in the head with a golf club a few dozen too many times.
As someone who met her husband at a D & D game (in the 80's), this is disappointing. Thanks for informing us of what happened.
You have such good sense of what is fair. It's not seen a lot anymore where someone sees positive ways of resolution of problems. ❤️
Puppy picture ending is the BEST! Good points there, Sir Runkle. Well said.
The eye that never sleeps
Sent by the head that never has a clue
Love your new lighting. Camera angle . I like how you explain things.
Why do the right thing when you can do the wrong thing over and over again?
Imagine being a Magic Card fan and getting your own card named Secret Keeper!!! He’d scream so hard the Cheeto dust would fly off his fingers and his mom’s house would jump off the basement he was lurking in!
Seriously though, I’m not even a fan of the game and I absolutely know that would be awesome!
Also it would turn the negative into a sales positive!
Threatening people with imprisonment when you have no authority to imprison them for what you're going on about should be flatly illegal.
I was really into magic from revised for a couple of years. I must sell all my moxes and dual lands before the value drops.
WOTC lawyer we have a few options. WOTC lets go with the one the will make us look we worst ..... 🤯
"I'm Runkle of the Bailey! And you've just been Runkled!"
"Legal strategy: Maybe it's not a good idea to go after your community."
Yeah, you shouldn't need a legal expert for that.
Honestly, WotC didn't even need the product back. Just pay the guy off and ask him to sign an embargo agreement. "Keep the cards, set your video to private until the official release day, and here's some cool stuff to pay you for your trouble"
WOW !!! Awesome story !!!
Thanks Ian ❤ appreciate all you do
Pinkerton. Striking fear in we the peons since 1850. Ugh!
Trains, planes, and magic the gathering card collectors… 🤦♀️
The only way to meet a pinkerton at your door is with an ar or a shotgun.
I am from Pgh, PA. Been in Homestead many times, where the Pinkertons attacked. Guess they figured Blackwater is out of business.
Always interesting, thank you!
i think the damage from all this is worth more than what Wizards lost from sales because of spoilers due to the way they have handled this.
Obviously WotC thinks their customers are the enemy.
I did not know about roll of law channel 😮 my day just got so much better! 😊🎉
I have to wonder if they sent the P’s because local authorities did or would have refused.
Yes, because they dont have a legal avenue to stand on. They are completely in the wrong here.
Once the cards are sent to a retailer the parent company doesn't own them anymore. By USA law, if you're sent something other than what you ordered you get a refund AND get to keep the mistaken items. WotC just committed theft via intimidation like they were muggers flashing a gun to get someone's wallet.
Streisand effect was about publishing aerial imagery of her ‘estate’
Very good explanation.
It's a wonder the TH-camr even let the Pinkertons inside his house, and then to let them grab-and-go with his belongings ?
Wow, I had no idea they were still around, the Pinkertons. Wizards might not be if they keep this up!
Lord have mercy … the Pinkerton’s !
Such a baaaaad way to go about doing this. Absolutely makes me happy to not fund anything WOTC…
By one of those curious concidences, I watched 3 Runkle videos this evening. The first, your speech at the CSSA, was enjoyable. The second one that popped up was what I'll nicname "The Goat Video." That was, apart from any other considerations both interesting and entertaining, with a few points of the maze of contract law thrown in for good measure. Then, TH-cam offered up this video, the "Pinkertons and the Cards" video. And after watching that one, I found myself wondering just how dumb does a niche company that depends heavily on a specific subset of the community have to be to send Goons out to the home of a guy who happened to buy a package of cards. I confess to knowing absolutely nothing about the cards, the company, or the background. But if ever there was a "stepped on the crank with the old golf shoes" decision, this sure was it. Thank you Ian. This was a most enjoyable cross section of the life of a "legal beagle" and one that left a smile on my face. The last surely gets 9.5 from for from the sublime to the absurd.
I honestly think that someone just had a power trip and I would fire and public-shame them if I was WOTC.
Like "I am a part of this huge company, those cards are MINE and I hola all the power over unworthy pllebs that buy them." kind of trip.
I don't think they even considered the public image. They just acted as a king ruling over their domain.
Thanks!
I don’t even game, never have, but I find you, and your explanation, absolutely fascinating.
Thank you.
PS I don’t game, but I do watch Lawyers and Dragons. Hey, does that make me a gamer? Anyway…I can’t wait for L&D to return on May 27!
Be there…or be square. 🤣😂
One would have thought they send a level 1 party for that job...
The mailed fist should almost never be the first option. Opt for the velvet glove. I like how you put it..."they could have done....but, instead, they chose violence."
I'm not a gamer in any form, but this just rankles me since many of my friends are.
should've countered the pinkertons with a single color black or white deck. that way he could've gotten like 5 monsters on the field in his first turn.
I love how well this aged compared to WoTC now worrying about the RCs safety!
I feel like most people put in that situation would have been happy to comply with just standard wrong-delivery compensation (you get to keep what was sent, plus we give you what you initially ordered), plus maybe a box to ask to private the footage and not release any more until close to set release
Interesting. I like your suggestions best, of course!
"Maybe it's not a good idea to go after your community" To be fair, that's a common (anti-)marketing strategy nowadays, but usually they use "journalists". They did that with the D&D movie, too.
Holy sh*t, it's Matthew Brodderick-Targaryen!
Just when you think WOC couldn't make a dumber move, they say Hold my beer! 🍺 I hope this guts sues for millions!
"What's the stupidest way we can handle this? Let's do that."
THey could have easily asked for him to take the video down and re-release it when the cards actually came out, and to not publish anything more... and ask what he wanted in exchange for that... and likely would not have cost them much.
The sending goons to steal his property (as I assume he bought them legally) opens them up to lots of stuff. Totally separate of reputation damage.