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@@tbac2432 - Dude, you can't tell people to "settle down" when they don't get your joke, then get all offended when someone makes a little joke in return. You're taking this stuff WAY to seriously!
How does ridge carbide compare to forest blades like the woodworker 2 and chop master. I use the forest and love them. They are in the same price range and the factory is local to me which is great for sharpening service.
Hey stumpy nubs, i realise this is a late response to your video, sorry. I just purchased my first saw mill in february 2022, I intend to build a lot, a mill house, a solar kiln, a shop/barn and ultimately a house. Furniture may follow. What i need now is guideance, there used to be a book published for (or by) the DNR/US forestry department, the information inside was most valuable to a sawyer, pertaining to how to build a kiln, wood species, optimal cuts, kiln times, calculating board foot, how to charge for lumber, Etc. Etc.. When i asked my local DNR forestry office about this book, the reaction was less than helpful. Being told to just google or you tube search the info I may need when needed was not the favoured response I was hoping for. Despite living in northern MN, the information is scarce and those who have the information are afraid to loose business or their job (insert underlying condition of a union mentality) In short, I have little help or guidance after cutting a tree down. If you know of such a book or web page and are willing to point me in that direction I'd be most grateful. Thank you. Don
@@artiet5982 It's a lot of work and any logs smaller than 14" diameter will only yield junk. Be very precise in your stacking and throw a lot of extra weight on top or half your boards will be so badly warped as to be unusable. The process isn't very complicated. Green wood stinks. If you store it in your attached garage, the smell will invade your house. Still, the summer I spent sawing wood on my friend's mill saved me a lot of money (I still have some planks a decade later!) and having furniture that I took from tree to finished product is very satisfying, so go for it.
I use aired dried wood for several projects. I resaw firewood logs, usually various types of oak. I stack them properly and cover with pavers for weight. I paint the ends and write the date on the edge once the paint is dry. Boards are cut to 5/4, quarter sawn when possible and 12 to 18 inches long. I let dry 1 year per inch of width then bring into the garage where they might sit for another 6 months to a year before I decide what I will make. They may bow and twist a bit but that’s why I cut them to 5/4 to end up planed down to 3/4 or 1/2. I made a jig that I use to take care of the bows and twist on my thickness planer (no $$ or space for a jointer). I make make some beautiful boxes and other small projects, usually to give away.
Just now came across this video. Some good information. Only thing I would add to this would be that, most hardwoods that you'll work with that are dried properly are first cut and air dried for a period of time. Walnut, we cut and stack for up to 18 months to air dry before kiln drying. Oaks, Chestnuts, Cherry, Maple etc are generally air dried for 12 months or so. The target to get them to is < 20% MC before putting them into a kiln. This reduces the instances of case hardening, spider-webbing and allows us to cull out materials that would be a waste of time and money to put into a kiln. Walnut is a special instance in that, air drying allows the tannins to leach out into the sapwood thus converting more of the wood into the darker material that is prized. However, the best method to do this is to steam the walnut first. This process will help convert a much larger percentage of the sapwood to the darker heart wood as well as make the heart wood a much deeper, more chocolaty color rather than its natural brown & purple coloration.
This video is so fantastic!!! I’ve spent forever looking for a video that goes over “drying theory” and you nailed sooooo many of my questions 👍 thanks!
And note: you CAN absolutely build furniture from undried, green wood. That's how a lot of very durable furniture was made in the past. The difference is that the methods and preparation are almost entirely different, and when you're selecting stock it's much easier if you actually pick the tree itself. A straight oak growing on flat, dry ground, split into wedges will move very little. The same tree planted on a hill has a tremendous amount of tension in it working to keep the trunk from falling downhill, and that will warp the board even after drying. Look up the work of Peter Follansbee and Jennie Alexander for more.
I am a cabinet/furniture maker for the last 7 years. Also I've been an arborist for the last 5 years. I use both kiln and are dried that I cut. 1. Kiln dried is way easier to Mill. 2. I cut apricot, mountain ash, silver maple, oak, elm , black walnut and more from where I live in Missoula Mt.I sometimes get amazing figured grain patterns from what I cut, and alot of time not. Compared to what I buy from the local lumber supply my wood definitely has a unique look but, it is a pain to Mill. it's super cool looking. I'll cut vaneer and vac bag it to mdf or 4 square kiln dried hardwood. Haven't had a failure yet. Love the videos. Thanks
Spot on info, so important as a woodworker.I’ve worked in the flooring manufacturing business for 20 years and also as a contractor. My hobby is woodworking.At the flooring business I operated several different kinds of kilns and the molder machine that produces the flooring and other components such as staircase and trim casings. Almost all of my first furniture projects cracked or fell apart because I didn’t understand wood movement vs moisture content. Wood can be dried too fast in a kiln,or at different rates causing “ case hardening “ or warping and twisting. I prefer air drying because it’s gentle and consistent. Construction Lumber is never dried very low and is left out in the rain anyways. Moisture meters are affordable now and everyone should own one,even painters and contractors.MOST important is let the wood Acclimate,both in the shop and house. Cheers.
I've been having issues with red pine in the kiln. A lot of the 2x and even 1x material wants to twist and cup. Is there anything in particular that causes this? Being dried too fast or not consistent?
Fantastic information !!! I love your videos and your "to the point " quality. Thanks for respecting your audience's time by not dragging out your talking points. I think most presenters would have taken an hour to cover the same material. Forever a fan of your channel.
Hi James I don’t really comment on videos much at all, but I felt compelled to give a big thanks for all the great content you guys produce. I’ve been a follower and fan for quite sometime and it’s great informative videos similar to this one that keep me clicking for more. I love the science and logic behind all it is I do and Stumpy Nubs never disappoints! Keep it coming man and thanks so much for what you guys do
Enjoy your videos. You right about drying times, I cut some chestnut up that was on the ground for 10 months. Took almost five years in a unheated building to get it almost dry enough to use. I finally put it in my motorcycle trailer and heated it with a fan blowing thru to get it dry enough to build a rool top desk. Here in N.C. in my area the wood in our home test 10%. Keep up the great work.
Glad you mentioned the advantages and dis-advantages. These were running in my head while you were speaking about humidity, etc. I have a stack of buggy red oak that will probably go to waste, because I didn't realize that the heat was needed for pests as well as drying. Live and learn.
Wood that has a bunch of worm holes from insects can actually make for very nice projects. The wood just needs a heat treatment to sanitize prior to use. If it's not something you're up for then you could always sell it to someone who is.
Very well done, easy to understand lesson. I would like you to do more on this subject for us folks that mill and dry our own lumber. Discussion of recommended methods to check the m.c. would be great as well. Many thanks from Oregon!
I use air dried lumber almost exclusively. I've been told the whole story that it never gets as dry as kiln dried. The wood will acclimate to it's environment, after a few months in shop conditions they will both have the same moisture content. I have invited nay sayers out to my shop to test this. everything in my shop was at 8%. I'm a classical guitar builder and this sort of thing is critical. I have found the most stable wood is air dried, you just need to plan ahead a little more.
Inexperienced woodworker here, especially with wood. I live in Michigan. 78 pct relative humidity lately. I bought 5/4 cherry wood that had been air dried in a non-climate controlled cabin for 6+ years. The wood measured 12% moisture content. I brought it to my garage and stacked it. I have an electric heater that I set to 40 degrees while I’m working. 4-6 hours on the weekends. I milled a board with a planer to make a keepsake box (10” x 5” x 3” with the top and sides 5/16”) for my granddaughter. I did all the cutting, planing, etc work in my garage, but glue required 50+ degree temp so I brought the wood in and let it sit for a day inside then glued the pieces together. A day later I applied Odie’s Oil. The next morning I noticed the top of the box had curled. I think I should have let the wood acclimate longer to the indoor humidity Level (33%)? Or, the piece of wood might have been too thin? Any suggestions on what could I have done differently? I have a feeling the top would curl up in the house no matter how long I let it acclimate. I can’t store the wood inside before making projects
There is a book I have been meaning to read called "Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way" by Lars Mytting. Don't know how that would relate to air or kiln drying. Thank you for the continued education James.
Decades ago I bought myself a dehumidifier and cabinet. It worked really well except I got lovely lines of woodworm along side the stickers. After that I used a greenhouse fumigater bomb to prevent a recurrence. When I had the space after that I just air dried my timber. To avoid splits when drying the evaporation of moisture off the wood surface must be no faster than the rate of moisture loss across the inside of the timber Here in England it was just a matter of stacking the timber in a barn for a year or more, followed by bringing it into the workshop or the house to acclimatise.
Air dried lumber, works better for acoustic musical instruments. If you use kiln dried, the artificial heating literally changes the woods tonal structure. II think you were a bit high on the air dried at 15%, closer to 12%. You're also using thicker boards, then I do. Love your channel, have learned a lot, many thanks.
Uk outside drying gets you no lower than 18-20%. I’ve 14 year old Cherry which is shed dried to 11%. Wood will only dry externally to your local emc value.
If you have the space you can often get fresh sawn domestic woods from local sawmills fairly inexpensive, stacking it and letting it dry can save you a lot of money. One of my older brothers has a supplier that charges a dollar a board foot no mater the species and he rounds down, I was helping my brother with a project and the sawmill owner sold boards that were about 10 feet long as if they were 8 foot long. I'm the expert woodworker in my family and my brother was disappointed when I told him he really ought to wait at least a year before making a bench top out of the 8/4 hickory he just picked up that had been milled less than a week before.
Another good video on your behalf thank you. So here is a good question - How much moisture is kiln dried wood going to reabsorb in an area like where we live in Florida where we are very often in high humidity?
Haven't noticed much change here in NC, but admittedly we have less humidity year round than FL. I think the important thing is to let the lumber acclimate for a few weeks - no matter where it comes from. Even then I always let in stabilize for a few days after re-sawing or any major operation before assembly, both for stress relief if any and if it might have been case hardened.
As described in "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley the water content of wood -- even kiln dried -- will continue to follow the relative humidity of the environment in which it is stored (I'm REALLY paraphrasing here). Basically, take a snapshot of the graph James displayed; wood will vary in moisture content at a rate similar to that graph. I say similar because absorption rates vary by species: something you can go and look up if you need more accurate specifics.
Depends on where you live. The humidity is low enough where I live we easily get the wood to 8% per inch in less than one year. I have a whole barn full of many different species of wood that I have been using in furniture for decades with no issues.
@@stevebengel1346 yeah same, I made a segmented bowl for my grandparents who live in about 20-30% humidity and the next time I visited them it was full of cracks
I love your videos, :) I would love to see a video about how to properly air dry lumber, I imagine many of your viewers are amateurs like me, and many of us cannot afford to buy kiln dried wood especially since we don't make things for profit but out of passion. I am passionate about woodturning especially, and it can be very frustrating to spend time and money on a piece that will crack because of inadequate understanding about moisture content and drying speed ..
stringmanipulator Whenever we air dry larger slabs or wood boards, I put plastic over over the ends. It’s amazing how much that has cut down twisting/bowing/splitting. Moisture escapes out of the end grain way faster than the other sections of the board. By slowing it down, we’ve eliminated many of our air-drying related problems.
Could you recommend a good book or video on the proper steps to go from freshly cut log with bark on it all the way to air dried lumber ready to be used in a project?
The graph was interesting, especially at levels of 40-60% humidity. I live in NE Ohio, and my dehumidifier never stops in the summer (trying to keep humidity near 60%). But now (Feb) it’s 40%. I care about that, because the 3 oak trees that I sawed and stacked in the basement (in 2008) are stuck at 10% moisture content. I gave up waiting to reach 8%. But the graph seems to show that an indoor humidity of 40-50% is consistent with an EMC of 10% or a bit more.
I’ve been air drying lumber in my mechanical room in the basement. I seal the ends with outdoor duct tape and write the date and species on both ends. I use them for knife scales so I don’t need large pieces. Most of them are 16” in length because that’s the bar size on my chainsaw 😊.
I have a couple of black walnut trees and a pecan tree on my property that are dropping some branches. I'd like to keep some of the wood for small projects. Will see how air drying works out.
Come for the name, stay for the great lines like "One of the many concepts invented to make woodworking more confusing, like board feet and pre-drilling."
But, how do you measure the moisture content of wood? I mean, I know there is a gizmo I can buy that will give me a number, but I need to know how it works (and how I could mess up the measurement) before I can trust the number.
I have a dehumided basement that has been drying some rounds and small logs up to 8 inch diameter and 24 inches long. The wood is black Walnut from a tree I cut down a year and a half ago. I guess my question is how good of an environment is this for drying. Will the wood reach 6-8 percent? Are all the moisture checkers the same?
I have not done well with air-dried but I also hate to leave what I think might be a useable piece of wood on the ground. I use my air-dried for craft and/or toy projects. Furniture or construction... kiln dried.
Great info. Thanks. I’m in florida. I’m wondering if air drying works here. Outdoor RH is rarely below 80% all year. But indoor I only get RH so perhaps I don’t need to dry as much? Maybe 12% could work?
How can you know at what temp and how fast and slow you should dry the wood in a kiln. I'm getting my kiln slowly up to 150f, and a week to week in a half it is usually dry. But I get a lot of wrapped boards
Iv had a 5 meter plank of black heart sassafrass sitting on my lounge floor for the last six months wondering if I should take it to get kiln dried , I think I'm pretty confident to just let it be till I'm ready to assign it a job .
If you plan to make something from it that will go in the lounge, or somewhere with a similar climate, you don't have to get it kiln-dried. Green wood takes about a year to dry for each inch it is thick. But that's from the tree. If it was partly dry when you put it in there, it will take less time.
Stumpy Nubs thanks , it's close to three inches and l was told at purchase it had been sitting about a year so I guess it will have to sit another year or two .
Say you built and insulated a box large enough for a few pieces of green wood right off the bandsaw mill. You stack these pieces properly stickered and include a dehumidifier for a few days (maybe weeks?). Would that get it dry enough to work with?
I'd skip the insulation. In fact, I'd skip the dehumidifier too. Instead I'd build a frame and wrap it in clear plastic sheeting, like a mini greenhouse. Sticker the boards, put a slow speed fan inside to keep the air moving just enough to carry away the moisture, and a vent to let the moisture out. That's essentially a solar kiln. There are articles online about making them in all sizes for drying your own wood.... Another option is to sticker the boards in the attic for a few months. But if it gets too hot you may get a lot of splitting and checking.
I was absent a few days in wood drying school so I dont get a few things, that maybe someone else does. What happens if you are air drying outside and it rains? Does the moisture content go back up? What happens if you dry, acclimate and all that stuff, then homeowner opens the windows? Are you only supposed to put wood furniture in homes that are sealed from the outdoors? What gives with the big box store wood? Was it dried too quickly or not enough? Any thoughts?
It takes time for moisture to leave wood, or to be re-absorbed. Rain will saturate the outer fibers, but it is the humidity in the air that will make the most difference. Likewise, opening a window in a house will have little affect unless the windows are opened all the time. But even with all of this, a board will never again be as wet as it was in the living tree.
This was really helpfull... I bought two big pieces of beech wood and when I cut them in table saw, to under 3-4cm, they bend that much that it becomes impossible to cut. I ask few wood workers, but they didn't know why. Now thanks to you, I know why. They seem to be kill dried too quickly... I bought those lumbers from a seller which I usually don't buy from... Thank you very much
Great video as always, James. thank you! in a future tools video could you discuss moisture meters? I have seen others discuss the topic and would love to hear your thoughts. I searched and didn't see one on your channel, but if I missed it, just point me to it and I will be on my way. thanks again.
Is acclimating lumber a good practice? And if I keep my lumber in my garage in Phoenix too long (how long is too long?), will it become too brittle? So, I shouldn't stock lumber? I just started this... Hobby? Anyway, I've noticed that some of the lumber I get from my box store is heavier that other cuts of the same dimension and feel cool to the touch. I assume those are higher moisture content. I've also discovered that boards I bought a few weeks ago, now feel lighter and none of them seem to be bent or twisted at all. Is drying a straightening process, too? Or, is it just as likely to twist while sitting in my garage?
I’m interested in building solar kiln. New territory to me so I know I got a lot of research to do, but any recommendations on reputable resources? Forums have given me a good dozen different opinions on best methods. Thanks for all the videos!
Hi James. Great vid. So when you plane down one face of a kiln dried board and it warps, is that not still a moisture problem? Looking to buy a thicknesser (using the UK meaning of the word - think you term it a planer thicknesser?), but I want to avoid the wood warping because I exposed new wood surfaces by taking off the outer layers. Do I leave the thicknessed wood a little oversized for a couple of days and then run it through the thicknesser again and so creep up on it to get a flat board that stays flat ?
There is always moisture in the wood. When you plane just one side, you expose damper wood on that side which leads to warping. Plane evenly on both sides... If you're working with rough boards, joint and plane them down to near the finished thickness, then let them sit overnight to adapt to all that material you removed and the moist fibers you exposed. You can remove any minor warping that occurs overnight when you finish the milling the next day... Cut your joinery as soon as the boards are milled. If you let them sit another day or two, they may not be flat anymore. If you won't be able to cut your joinery right away, wait to do that final milling until just before you can cut the joinery. If you run out of time and you didn't finish the joinery, wrap the boards in plastic bags for the night.
Any thoughts on a solar kiln? I am about to build one and try it out on some pine I milked off my land that has been air drying for about 10 months now.
Unless you live in arizona where the RH is 5% (except monsoon season), I air dry all my mesquite. Typically 11 months for a 6/4 cut, 9 months for a 5/4 cut. I will admit though, it doesn't kill off the boring worms often found in the sap wood areas. But thats OK because I like the trails they leave behind when filled with black epoxy. Great video though.
Can I used air dried soft yellow pine wood to make a pallet wall inside of my home or will I have issues with mold growth at some point down the road? I intend to use an oil based stain and polyurethane on the air dried lumber but just want to make sure I’m not sealing the moisture in the board which I imagine can cause problems later on down the line.
Stumpy Nubs I’m having issues with mold removal. So the wood doesn’t have to be dried to 6-8 percent in order to be brought inside? I would think if there’s any moisture inside the board that once hung up on the wall water could possibly get trapped between the wall and the board further resulting in the incubation of mold-like conditions.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on kiln-dried and air-dried lumber. It raises a question for me. I currently buy all my lumber, which is kiln-dried. I keep it in the garage, which is attached to the house (opens into the basement) and is subject to the wild fluctuations in climate. I live in the upper midwest, where we normally see freezing winters with low relative humidity to humid summers well into the upper 80's and low 90s. So is it okay to keep my lumber in the garage, or should I bring it into my basement? Thanks, and any community responses are also greatly appreciated.
@@StumpyNubs I forgot to mention that my garage is also my makeshift shop; that is, I do all of my cutting and shaping out there. I assume you would suggest the same thing? Thanks!
I wondered why walnut turns purple sometimes. Now I know! We used to cut all kinds of stuff from fallen trees in the parks where I worked, and most of the time it would get all kinds of cracks, poplar in particular.
so we can use the lumbers that are under 8%. I usually buy lumbers from HD and cut it in proper size that I need and then I bring em to my living room or office to make em dry enough for my projects. right thing to do?
So as a newbie woodworker my question is...if the "annual average relative humidity" for my area is 71% which according to your chart is a MC of approx. 13%, is that the lowest percentage I can expect my red oak slabs to air dry outside no matter how long I leave it outside to dry?
Some do an initial air dry, then finish it in a couple weeks in a solar kiln. Solar kilns are apparently cheap to build as well. Also another lesser known secret of woodworking is to lock in the moisture content by applying an appropriate finish as soon as the boards are at that percentage. The problem is common finishes like shellac and teak oil do not lock the moisture content. A hardier finish like poly or spar is preferable, which locks moisture, kills any bugs in or out of the wood, and will resist UV damage. The problem with that of course is some finishes like those require years of experience to get them to look professional grade. Requiring different grit sandings between every coat to maximize its sheen, and also keeping the finish smooth. It took me the better part of 2 years working with spar to develop a very precise system of making it look like a master crafters tabletop. And like anyone else that does it for a hobby or a job, i wont share a unique system that sets my work apart. Plus i can store my furniture in the rain or snow and they are fine. Unless a bird poops on it. That will eat away the finish and require patching.
Yes, that is called the EMC. Equilibrium moisture content and that is the general mc for your environment. Wagner moisture meters have that functionality built in and will show you what you can achieve in your environment
I was given a small barn this winter. All of the lumber was mine for the taking. It was built from rough sawn, milled onsite lumber. A lot of it had aged to a beautiful driftwood gray, still quite solid where it had not contacted the ground. My apprehension lies with the species. It is mostly popple, with some birch and cedar here and there. Is popple worth building anything with? I have never heard anyone speak of working with it. Does it glue well and accept a finish? Any insight would be appreciated.
Some people who say "popple" are talking about aspen, others are speaking about poplar. Not sure which you mean. Poplar is a common secondary wood for furniture, used where it won't be seen, or it is sometimes stained to mimic premium wood like cherry. Aspen is a very soft, light wood. It's not well suited to structural components. I wouldn't make chairs from it. But it's straight-grained, carves easily and looks good for lots of woodworking projects.
@@StumpyNubs If it helps at all, this building was in Traverse City, Michigan. All I have ever known these trees as is popple. Very common in the Boardman River valley along with the big cedars and birch.
Master Nubs, you may have done this before but I am going to ask anyway. Have you done a video on hand planers, different brand models and tasks they perform. This would be very valuable for anyone starting woodworking.
im forced to work in an effective outdoor environment - little protection from atmospheric temperature and moisture changes. Does anyone have recommendations how to bring a finished piece of furniture into the house to minimise bend/warp/crack?
I live in Arizona where the humidity levels are lower than much of the country. Is air dried lumber here any more reliable? Are there meters that can effectively indicate the moisture level in a board?
I air dry all my lumber here in AZ, It don't take long with our very low humidity. Like Stumpy said, when your ready to make something, make sure to bring into your shop for a week or so to acclimate before milling it up. So far I have a "zero" failure rate on glue joints or warping of any kind.
Lumber yard wood is usually warped because it was milled when it was sopping wet and warped as it dried. Wood will always move when it dries. That's why we wait to mill our project boards flat until right before we use them.
QUESTION I have "apparently" 2 years dried, 50mm thick beech, with 20 % moisture, which was outside for awhile and looks that have more moisture i mean originally more So i have some stupid idea to dry few boards with torch Not burning them japanese style, but evenly try to get moisture out So my question is Did anyone tried that What kind results had Is it even possible Thanks
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feel better. I deleted it ?
don't worry about responding.
@@tbac2432 - Dude, you can't tell people to "settle down" when they don't get your joke, then get all offended when someone makes a little joke in return. You're taking this stuff WAY to seriously!
hahaha...not...:) if I could give you 3 face palm emojis I would. lol
How does ridge carbide compare to forest blades like the woodworker 2 and chop master. I use the forest and love them. They are in the same price range and the factory is local to me which is great for sharpening service.
Hey stumpy nubs, i realise this is a late response to your video, sorry.
I just purchased my first saw mill in february 2022, I intend to build a lot, a mill house, a solar kiln, a shop/barn and ultimately a house. Furniture may follow. What i need now is guideance, there used to be a book published for (or by) the DNR/US forestry department, the information inside was most valuable to a sawyer, pertaining to how to build a kiln, wood species, optimal cuts, kiln times, calculating board foot, how to charge for lumber, Etc. Etc..
When i asked my local DNR forestry office about this book, the reaction was less than helpful. Being told to just google or you tube search the info I may need when needed was not the favoured response I was hoping for. Despite living in northern MN, the information is scarce and those who have the information are afraid to loose business or their job (insert underlying condition of a union mentality)
In short, I have little help or guidance after cutting a tree down. If you know of such a book or web page and are willing to point me in that direction I'd be most grateful. Thank you. Don
"We can make a whole video about acclimating lumber before you use it" Please do. Would love to watch it.
Azuban Kull agreed! I’m looking to start the process of mfg my own lumber.
@@artiet5982 It's a lot of work and any logs smaller than 14" diameter will only yield junk. Be very precise in your stacking and throw a lot of extra weight on top or half your boards will be so badly warped as to be unusable. The process isn't very complicated. Green wood stinks. If you store it in your attached garage, the smell will invade your house. Still, the summer I spent sawing wood on my friend's mill saved me a lot of money (I still have some planks a decade later!) and having furniture that I took from tree to finished product is very satisfying, so go for it.
Agreed! That's the perfect video idea.
Did this ever happen?
@@michaelgavin7621 Don't think so
Thanks James! You're doing a great job producing useful content . I, for one, really appreciate what you do!!
I use aired dried wood for several projects. I resaw firewood logs, usually various types of oak. I stack them properly and cover with pavers for weight. I paint the ends and write the date on the edge once the paint is dry. Boards are cut to 5/4, quarter sawn when possible and 12 to 18 inches long. I let dry 1 year per inch of width then bring into the garage where they might sit for another 6 months to a year before I decide what I will make.
They may bow and twist a bit but that’s why I cut them to 5/4 to end up planed down to 3/4 or 1/2. I made a jig that I use to take care of the bows and twist on my thickness planer (no $$ or space for a jointer). I make make some beautiful boxes and other small projects, usually to give away.
Just now came across this video. Some good information. Only thing I would add to this would be that, most hardwoods that you'll work with that are dried properly are first cut and air dried for a period of time. Walnut, we cut and stack for up to 18 months to air dry before kiln drying. Oaks, Chestnuts, Cherry, Maple etc are generally air dried for 12 months or so. The target to get them to is < 20% MC before putting them into a kiln. This reduces the instances of case hardening, spider-webbing and allows us to cull out materials that would be a waste of time and money to put into a kiln. Walnut is a special instance in that, air drying allows the tannins to leach out into the sapwood thus converting more of the wood into the darker material that is prized. However, the best method to do this is to steam the walnut first. This process will help convert a much larger percentage of the sapwood to the darker heart wood as well as make the heart wood a much deeper, more chocolaty color rather than its natural brown & purple coloration.
As one who just built my kiln last weekend, I appreciate this video even more now.
Do you have plans on how you built it?
Just watched a bunch of videos.
This video is so fantastic!!! I’ve spent forever looking for a video that goes over “drying theory” and you nailed sooooo many of my questions 👍 thanks!
I'm doing Wood technology at Nelson Mandela University and this video was informative 😊😊
And note: you CAN absolutely build furniture from undried, green wood. That's how a lot of very durable furniture was made in the past. The difference is that the methods and preparation are almost entirely different, and when you're selecting stock it's much easier if you actually pick the tree itself. A straight oak growing on flat, dry ground, split into wedges will move very little. The same tree planted on a hill has a tremendous amount of tension in it working to keep the trunk from falling downhill, and that will warp the board even after drying.
Look up the work of Peter Follansbee and Jennie Alexander for more.
I am a cabinet/furniture maker for the last 7 years. Also I've been an arborist for the last 5 years. I use both kiln and are dried that I cut. 1. Kiln dried is way easier to Mill. 2. I cut apricot, mountain ash, silver maple, oak, elm , black walnut and more from where I live in Missoula Mt.I sometimes get amazing figured grain patterns from what I cut, and alot of time not. Compared to what I buy from the local lumber supply my wood definitely has a unique look but, it is a pain to Mill. it's super cool looking. I'll cut vaneer and vac bag it to mdf or 4 square kiln dried hardwood. Haven't had a failure yet. Love the videos. Thanks
Spot on info, so important as a woodworker.I’ve worked in the flooring manufacturing business for 20 years and also as a contractor. My hobby is woodworking.At the flooring business I operated several different kinds of kilns and the molder machine that produces the flooring and other components such as staircase and trim casings. Almost all of my first furniture projects cracked or fell apart because I didn’t understand wood movement vs moisture content. Wood can be dried too fast in a kiln,or at different rates causing “ case hardening “ or warping and twisting. I prefer air drying because it’s gentle and consistent. Construction Lumber is never dried very low and is left out in the rain anyways. Moisture meters are affordable now and everyone should own one,even painters and contractors.MOST important is let the wood Acclimate,both in the shop and house. Cheers.
I've been having issues with red pine in the kiln. A lot of the 2x and even 1x material wants to twist and cup. Is there anything in particular that causes this? Being dried too fast or not consistent?
Fantastic information !!! I love your videos and your "to the point " quality. Thanks for respecting your audience's time by not dragging out your talking points. I think most presenters would have taken an hour to cover the same material. Forever a fan of your channel.
Hi James I don’t really comment on videos much at all, but I felt compelled to give a big thanks for all the great content you guys produce. I’ve been a follower and fan for quite sometime and it’s great informative videos similar to this one that keep me clicking for more. I love the science and logic behind all it is I do and Stumpy Nubs never disappoints! Keep it coming man and thanks so much for what you guys do
Hey, all the videos I’ve watched. You’re a straight shooter…..! Thank you sir.
Enjoy your videos. You right about drying times, I cut some chestnut up that was on the ground for 10 months. Took almost five years in a unheated building to get it almost dry enough to use. I finally put it in my motorcycle trailer and heated it with a fan blowing thru to get it dry enough to build a rool top desk. Here in N.C. in my area the wood in our home test 10%. Keep up the great work.
Just taking a moment to say I really appreciate this video!
Stumpy Nubs is just another level in the Woodworking community 💯🔥
Glad you mentioned the advantages and dis-advantages. These were running in my head while you were speaking about humidity, etc. I have a stack of buggy red oak that will probably go to waste, because I didn't realize that the heat was needed for pests as well as drying. Live and learn.
Wood that has a bunch of worm holes from insects can actually make for very nice projects. The wood just needs a heat treatment to sanitize prior to use. If it's not something you're up for then you could always sell it to someone who is.
@@btarb242 Yes, I will probably get it out , wrap it in black plastic and let the Oklahoma sun heat treat it.
Very well done, easy to understand lesson.
I would like you to do more on this subject for us folks that mill and dry our own lumber.
Discussion of recommended methods to check the m.c. would be great as well.
Many thanks from Oregon!
Thanks for the helpful advice. Starting my first wood working project.
I use air dried lumber almost exclusively. I've been told the whole story that it never gets as dry as kiln dried. The wood will acclimate to it's environment, after a few months in shop conditions they will both have the same moisture content. I have invited nay sayers out to my shop to test this. everything in my shop was at 8%. I'm a classical guitar builder and this sort of thing is critical. I have found the most stable wood is air dried, you just need to plan ahead a little more.
As a nuclear engineer woodworker, this video scratches an itch I didn’t know I had. Thanks!
So you moonlight as a nuclear engineer? ;)
Inexperienced woodworker here, especially with wood. I live in Michigan. 78 pct relative humidity lately. I bought 5/4 cherry wood that had been air dried in a non-climate controlled cabin for 6+ years. The wood measured 12% moisture content. I brought it to my garage and stacked it. I have an electric heater that I set to 40 degrees while I’m working. 4-6 hours on the weekends. I milled a board with a planer to make a keepsake box (10” x 5” x 3” with the top and sides 5/16”) for my granddaughter. I did all the cutting, planing, etc work in my garage, but glue required 50+ degree temp so I brought the wood in and let it sit for a day inside then glued the pieces together. A day later I applied Odie’s Oil. The next morning I noticed the top of the box had curled. I think I should have let the wood acclimate longer to the indoor humidity Level (33%)? Or, the piece of wood might have been too thin? Any suggestions on what could I have done differently? I have a feeling the top would curl up in the house no matter how long I let it acclimate. I can’t store the wood inside before making projects
There is a book I have been meaning to read called "Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way" by Lars Mytting. Don't know how that would relate to air or kiln drying. Thank you for the continued education James.
Good info, and I love my Ridge Carbide rip blade, thank you for the advice on that long ago.
Decades ago I bought myself a dehumidifier and cabinet. It worked really well except I got lovely lines of woodworm along side the stickers. After that I used a greenhouse fumigater bomb to prevent a recurrence. When I had the space after that I just air dried my timber. To avoid splits when drying the evaporation of moisture off the wood surface must be no faster than the rate of moisture loss across the inside of the timber Here in England it was just a matter of stacking the timber in a barn for a year or more, followed by bringing it into the workshop or the house to acclimatise.
Air dried lumber, works better for acoustic musical instruments. If you use kiln dried, the artificial heating literally changes the woods tonal structure. II think you were a bit high on the air dried at 15%, closer to 12%. You're also using thicker boards, then I do.
Love your channel, have learned a lot, many thanks.
Uk outside drying gets you no lower than 18-20%. I’ve 14 year old Cherry which is shed dried to 11%. Wood will only dry externally to your local emc value.
If you have the space you can often get fresh sawn domestic woods from local sawmills fairly inexpensive, stacking it and letting it dry can save you a lot of money.
One of my older brothers has a supplier that charges a dollar a board foot no mater the species and he rounds down, I was helping my brother with a project and the sawmill owner sold boards that were about 10 feet long as if they were 8 foot long.
I'm the expert woodworker in my family and my brother was disappointed when I told him he really ought to wait at least a year before making a bench top out of the 8/4 hickory he just picked up that had been milled less than a week before.
U forgot about us wood carvers where me myself personally would chose Air dried everytime. Love your channel keep on keeping on
Another good video on your behalf thank you. So here is a good question - How much moisture is kiln dried wood going to reabsorb in an area like where we live in Florida where we are very often in high humidity?
Haven't noticed much change here in NC, but admittedly we have less humidity year round than FL.
I think the important thing is to let the lumber acclimate for a few weeks - no matter where it comes from.
Even then I always let in stabilize for a few days after re-sawing or any major operation before assembly, both for stress relief if any and if it might have been case hardened.
As described in "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley the water content of wood -- even kiln dried -- will continue to follow the relative humidity of the environment in which it is stored (I'm REALLY paraphrasing here). Basically, take a snapshot of the graph James displayed; wood will vary in moisture content at a rate similar to that graph. I say similar because absorption rates vary by species: something you can go and look up if you need more accurate specifics.
Depends on where you live. The humidity is low enough where I live we easily get the wood to 8% per inch in less than one year. I have a whole barn full of many different species of wood that I have been using in furniture for decades with no issues.
Lucky you, lol. Humidity around where I live is usually a low of 70%; the past few days it's been 90%+
@@stevebengel1346 yeah same, I made a segmented bowl for my grandparents who live in about 20-30% humidity and the next time I visited them it was full of cracks
Low humidity areas likely have way less available native wood suitable for furniture building.
I love your videos, :) I would love to see a video about how to properly air dry lumber, I imagine many of your viewers are amateurs like me, and many of us cannot afford to buy kiln dried wood especially since we don't make things for profit but out of passion. I am passionate about woodturning especially, and it can be very frustrating to spend time and money on a piece that will crack because of inadequate understanding about moisture content and drying speed ..
stringmanipulator Whenever we air dry larger slabs or wood boards, I put plastic over over the ends. It’s amazing how much that has cut down twisting/bowing/splitting. Moisture escapes out of the end grain way faster than the other sections of the board. By slowing it down, we’ve eliminated many of our air-drying related problems.
Great info. We run a Woodmizer. I learned several things watching your video.
Could you recommend a good book or video on the proper steps to go from freshly cut log with bark on it all the way to air dried lumber ready to be used in a project?
I would like to see that also
Very informative.. I’m thinking about converting an old greenhouse I have into a drying shed..
How do you moisturize kiln dryer wood to use (12 to 15 percent ) old fashioned hand tool it or semi green tiller a bow....
i haven’t engaged in any woodworking since i was in high school but this is fascinating
The graph was interesting, especially at levels of 40-60% humidity.
I live in NE Ohio, and my dehumidifier never stops in the summer (trying to keep humidity near 60%). But now (Feb) it’s 40%. I care about that, because the 3 oak trees that I sawed and stacked in the basement (in 2008) are stuck at 10% moisture content. I gave up waiting to reach 8%. But the graph seems to show that an indoor humidity of 40-50% is consistent with an EMC of 10% or a bit more.
I’ve been air drying lumber in my mechanical room in the basement. I seal the ends with outdoor duct tape and write the date and species on both ends. I use them for knife scales so I don’t need large pieces. Most of them are 16” in length because that’s the bar size on my chainsaw 😊.
I have a couple of black walnut trees and a pecan tree on my property that are dropping some branches. I'd like to keep some of the wood for small projects. Will see how air drying works out.
Come for the name, stay for the great lines like "One of the many concepts invented to make woodworking more confusing, like board feet and pre-drilling."
But, how do you measure the moisture content of wood? I mean, I know there is a gizmo I can buy that will give me a number, but I need to know how it works (and how I could mess up the measurement) before I can trust the number.
I have a dehumided basement that has been drying some rounds and small logs up to 8 inch diameter and 24 inches long. The wood is black Walnut from a tree I cut down a year and a half ago. I guess my question is how good of an environment is this for drying. Will the wood reach 6-8 percent? Are all the moisture checkers the same?
Hi James, I've always known about moisture %s but know I understand moisture %s. Cheers, Huw
I have not done well with air-dried but I also hate to leave what I think might be a useable piece of wood on the ground. I use my air-dried for craft and/or toy projects. Furniture or construction... kiln dried.
Great info. Thanks. I’m in florida. I’m wondering if air drying works here. Outdoor RH is rarely below 80% all year. But indoor I only get RH so perhaps I don’t need to dry as much? Maybe 12% could work?
How can you know at what temp and how fast and slow you should dry the wood in a kiln.
I'm getting my kiln slowly up to 150f, and a week to week in a half it is usually dry. But I get a lot of wrapped boards
Does it make a difference if the wood is planed while drying
I have aired dried my milled oak in mesquite outside. It does well in my environment (southern Arizona). 🤣🤣🤣
Iv had a 5 meter plank of black heart sassafrass sitting on my lounge floor for the last six months wondering if I should take it to get kiln dried , I think I'm pretty confident to just let it be till I'm ready to assign it a job .
If you plan to make something from it that will go in the lounge, or somewhere with a similar climate, you don't have to get it kiln-dried. Green wood takes about a year to dry for each inch it is thick. But that's from the tree. If it was partly dry when you put it in there, it will take less time.
Stumpy Nubs thanks , it's close to three inches and l was told at purchase it had been sitting about a year so I guess it will have to sit another year or two .
"Understanding Wood" 2000. It seems like I have been buying and giving away copies of that book since before 2000.
Yup. Brilliant resource.
Really enjoy your videos and appreciate your sense of humor. Thank you for sharing your woodworking knowledge, I have learned so much. Reiner
Say you built and insulated a box large enough for a few pieces of green wood right off the bandsaw mill. You stack these pieces properly stickered and include a dehumidifier for a few days (maybe weeks?). Would that get it dry enough to work with?
I'd skip the insulation. In fact, I'd skip the dehumidifier too. Instead I'd build a frame and wrap it in clear plastic sheeting, like a mini greenhouse. Sticker the boards, put a slow speed fan inside to keep the air moving just enough to carry away the moisture, and a vent to let the moisture out. That's essentially a solar kiln. There are articles online about making them in all sizes for drying your own wood.... Another option is to sticker the boards in the attic for a few months. But if it gets too hot you may get a lot of splitting and checking.
Suggestions on drying olive wood?
I was absent a few days in wood drying school so I dont get a few things, that maybe someone else does. What happens if you are air drying outside and it rains? Does the moisture content go back up?
What happens if you dry, acclimate and all that stuff, then homeowner opens the windows? Are you only supposed to put wood furniture in homes that are sealed from the outdoors?
What gives with the big box store wood? Was it dried too quickly or not enough? Any thoughts?
It takes time for moisture to leave wood, or to be re-absorbed. Rain will saturate the outer fibers, but it is the humidity in the air that will make the most difference. Likewise, opening a window in a house will have little affect unless the windows are opened all the time. But even with all of this, a board will never again be as wet as it was in the living tree.
This was really helpfull... I bought two big pieces of beech wood and when I cut them in table saw, to under 3-4cm, they bend that much that it becomes impossible to cut. I ask few wood workers, but they didn't know why. Now thanks to you, I know why. They seem to be kill dried too quickly... I bought those lumbers from a seller which I usually don't buy from... Thank you very much
have you ever used alder? we have lots of alder & willow on our uk property, we were hoping to mill it for a worksho floor
Great tutorial, it made sense of different points.
Great video as always, James. thank you!
in a future tools video could you discuss moisture meters? I have seen others discuss the topic and would love to hear your thoughts. I searched and didn't see one on your channel, but if I missed it, just point me to it and I will be on my way.
thanks again.
Colorado humidity is between 30-42% with an annual average of 33% which is in line with the graph in this video. I’m on that Hisao Hanafusa train.
Is acclimating lumber a good practice? And if I keep my lumber in my garage in Phoenix too long (how long is too long?), will it become too brittle? So, I shouldn't stock lumber? I just started this... Hobby? Anyway, I've noticed that some of the lumber I get from my box store is heavier that other cuts of the same dimension and feel cool to the touch. I assume those are higher moisture content. I've also discovered that boards I bought a few weeks ago, now feel lighter and none of them seem to be bent or twisted at all. Is drying a straightening process, too? Or, is it just as likely to twist while sitting in my garage?
Thanks for the video. I like how you present your videos without a lot of hype and drama. Keep posting (please).
I’m interested in building solar kiln. New territory to me so I know I got a lot of research to do, but any recommendations on reputable resources? Forums have given me a good dozen different opinions on best methods. Thanks for all the videos!
Hi James. Great vid. So when you plane down one face of a kiln dried board and it warps, is that not still a moisture problem? Looking to buy a thicknesser (using the UK meaning of the word - think you term it a planer thicknesser?), but I want to avoid the wood warping because I exposed new wood surfaces by taking off the outer layers. Do I leave the thicknessed wood a little oversized for a couple of days and then run it through the thicknesser again and so creep up on it to get a flat board that stays flat ?
There is always moisture in the wood. When you plane just one side, you expose damper wood on that side which leads to warping. Plane evenly on both sides... If you're working with rough boards, joint and plane them down to near the finished thickness, then let them sit overnight to adapt to all that material you removed and the moist fibers you exposed. You can remove any minor warping that occurs overnight when you finish the milling the next day... Cut your joinery as soon as the boards are milled. If you let them sit another day or two, they may not be flat anymore. If you won't be able to cut your joinery right away, wait to do that final milling until just before you can cut the joinery. If you run out of time and you didn't finish the joinery, wrap the boards in plastic bags for the night.
Any thoughts on a solar kiln? I am about to build one and try it out on some pine I milked off my land that has been air drying for about 10 months now.
They can be very effective if you do it right. There are whole forums about it online.
Thanks James! Great information .
I tend to air dry to about 20-24 percent then finish it in the kiln to about 5 then aclimate it in the shop it gives me good results
Unless you live in arizona where the RH is 5% (except monsoon season), I air dry all my mesquite. Typically 11 months for a 6/4 cut, 9 months for a 5/4 cut. I will admit though, it doesn't kill off the boring worms often found in the sap wood areas. But thats OK because I like the trails they leave behind when filled with black epoxy. Great video though.
Can I used air dried soft yellow pine wood to make a pallet wall inside of my home or will I have issues with mold growth at some point down the road? I intend to use an oil based stain and polyurethane on the air dried lumber but just want to make sure I’m not sealing the moisture in the board which I imagine can cause problems later on down the line.
No, moisture that's naturally inside air-dried wood shouldn't cause a problem with mold.
Stumpy Nubs I’m having issues with mold removal. So the wood doesn’t have to be dried to 6-8 percent in order to be brought inside? I would think if there’s any moisture inside the board that once hung up on the wall water could possibly get trapped between the wall and the board further resulting in the incubation of mold-like conditions.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on kiln-dried and air-dried lumber. It raises a question for me. I currently buy all my lumber, which is kiln-dried. I keep it in the garage, which is attached to the house (opens into the basement) and is subject to the wild fluctuations in climate. I live in the upper midwest, where we normally see freezing winters with low relative humidity to humid summers well into the upper 80's and low 90s. So is it okay to keep my lumber in the garage, or should I bring it into my basement? Thanks, and any community responses are also greatly appreciated.
Garage storage is fine. Just bring it inside to acclimate a few days before you use it.
@@StumpyNubs I forgot to mention that my garage is also my makeshift shop; that is, I do all of my cutting and shaping out there. I assume you would suggest the same thing? Thanks!
Please do more vids on drying your own lumber PLEASE
I wondered why walnut turns purple sometimes. Now I know! We used to cut all kinds of stuff from fallen trees in the parks where I worked, and most of the time it would get all kinds of cracks, poplar in particular.
so we can use the lumbers that are under 8%. I usually buy lumbers from HD and cut it in proper size that I need and then I bring em to my living room or office to make em dry enough for my projects. right thing to do?
So as a newbie woodworker my question is...if the "annual average relative humidity" for my area is 71% which according to your chart is a MC of approx. 13%, is that the lowest percentage I can expect my red oak slabs to air dry outside no matter how long I leave it outside to dry?
Some do an initial air dry, then finish it in a couple weeks in a solar kiln. Solar kilns are apparently cheap to build as well.
Also another lesser known secret of woodworking is to lock in the moisture content by applying an appropriate finish as soon as the boards are at that percentage. The problem is common finishes like shellac and teak oil do not lock the moisture content. A hardier finish like poly or spar is preferable, which locks moisture, kills any bugs in or out of the wood, and will resist UV damage.
The problem with that of course is some finishes like those require years of experience to get them to look professional grade. Requiring different grit sandings between every coat to maximize its sheen, and also keeping the finish smooth.
It took me the better part of 2 years working with spar to develop a very precise system of making it look like a master crafters tabletop. And like anyone else that does it for a hobby or a job, i wont share a unique system that sets my work apart.
Plus i can store my furniture in the rain or snow and they are fine. Unless a bird poops on it. That will eat away the finish and require patching.
Yes, that is called the EMC. Equilibrium moisture content and that is the general mc for your environment.
Wagner moisture meters have that functionality built in and will show you what you can achieve in your environment
I was given a small barn this winter. All of the lumber was mine for the taking. It was built from rough sawn, milled onsite lumber. A lot of it had aged to a beautiful driftwood gray, still quite solid where it had not contacted the ground. My apprehension lies with the species. It is mostly popple, with some birch and cedar here and there. Is popple worth building anything with? I have never heard anyone speak of working with it. Does it glue well and accept a finish? Any insight would be appreciated.
Some people who say "popple" are talking about aspen, others are speaking about poplar. Not sure which you mean. Poplar is a common secondary wood for furniture, used where it won't be seen, or it is sometimes stained to mimic premium wood like cherry. Aspen is a very soft, light wood. It's not well suited to structural components. I wouldn't make chairs from it. But it's straight-grained, carves easily and looks good for lots of woodworking projects.
@@StumpyNubs If it helps at all, this building was in Traverse City, Michigan. All I have ever known these trees as is popple. Very common in the Boardman River valley along with the big cedars and birch.
what % moisture content would be ideal for interior framing. For example, interior bedroom walls.
Thanks James, I truly appreciated appreciate useful information.
"...one of the many concepts invented to make woodworking more confusing - like board feet and pre-drilling." 😂
Jokes on you, Stumpy! I do dry my lumber in my living room!
well I learned something new today - Thanks!!
Thanks for the very useful information.
Hi can u recommend a good moisture meter?
You're kiln me, Smalls! I'll see myself out and get some fresh air now.... 😇😎😀
You should be air dry by now 😁
Master Nubs, you may have done this before but I am going to ask anyway. Have you done a video on hand planers, different brand models and tasks they perform. This would be very valuable for anyone starting woodworking.
Thanks for the great video James
This is a major help, thank you!
Always so informational, you my boy blue
Very informative. Had the info I was looking for and then some. Thank you
Hey stumpy, what did you use to paint your old Stanley planes?
All of the Stanleys I have currently were already restored when I got them. But some folks just use black spray paint.
Thanks, James. I understand a little more than I did.
The chemistry of wood working.😂
What about ensuring the wood doesn't have any bugs? What would make it safe?
i know im a little snarky but i enjoy your content , keep up the good work :)
Always great info ... thx for the video
Those saw blades work well with the saw stop? They can still trigger the brake mechanism?
Yes, I use them on my SawStop every day.
im forced to work in an effective outdoor environment - little protection from atmospheric temperature and moisture changes. Does anyone have recommendations how to bring a finished piece of furniture into the house to minimise bend/warp/crack?
I always enjoy your information very knowledgeable thanks great education for me
I live in Arizona where the humidity levels are lower than much of the country. Is air dried lumber here any more reliable? Are there meters that can effectively indicate the moisture level in a board?
I air dry all my lumber here in AZ, It don't take long with our very low humidity. Like Stumpy said, when your ready to make something, make sure to bring into your shop for a week or so to acclimate before milling it up. So far I have a "zero" failure rate on glue joints or warping of any kind.
Stallion Ranch Woodworks Thanks!
so is this why would in a coastal city lumber yard is warped? there is more humidity than where it was processed?
Lumber yard wood is usually warped because it was milled when it was sopping wet and warped as it dried. Wood will always move when it dries. That's why we wait to mill our project boards flat until right before we use them.
QUESTION
I have "apparently" 2 years dried, 50mm thick beech, with 20 % moisture, which was outside for awhile and looks that have more moisture
i mean originally more
So i have some stupid idea to dry few boards with torch
Not burning them japanese style,
but evenly try to get moisture out
So my question is
Did anyone tried that
What kind results had
Is it even possible
Thanks