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Excellent video. So many points of knowledge. Placing you on my must watch list. 2 points. On strength vs weakness. For most of the jujitsu counters I was taught, I was told 'go with it'. Go with the jujitsu technique being applied. Or use weakness to counter strength. We used the weakness to redirect to a position of strength An American saying "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line". So it's also the fastest. Least distance to cover.
Roland Warzecha The good thing is that it's really interesting and educational, since I try to put it to use in reenactment and theater. The "bad" thing is that most computer games that includes melee becomes really lacking. Anyway, as a teacher who worries about teenager's dwindling physical condition, this is a great way to catch the attention of gamers and make them interested in healthy activities which still piques the "nerdy" side of us. What you said about not being most important to be the strongest really kicked home with my pupils. It really made impact on those who generally give up before trying as they consider themselves "at the bottom of the pile" physically. We aren't doing any actual combat training or anything like that in school, but it has impacted their performance in gymnastics all the same. I could've just said so myself after watching the video, but I let them watch this clip as you said it so matter of factly that I thought it would really drive the point home. And it did! Thanks again!
ZeroTheHero Wow, I would have never imagined that any of my videos here would ever be put to such a valuable use. This is most fantastic. Thank you both for doing this, as well as for letting me know. Most wonderful.
+Michel Dai - due to some tech glitch I am denied to respond to your comment directly. At any rate, I agree that sword-fighting and spear fighting have a lot in common, as least as far as duelling goes.
I got a question on this: As I understand it, the spear was basically the weapon of choice for common soldiers and peasants, because it was relatively easy and cheap to produce and to learn how to use. Would soldiers and peasants during that time actually spend regular time training to wield the weapon effectively, or would they only train during a time of war, or would they just be handed a spear before a battle and basically learn "on the job"?
Answers to your questions would vary depending on time period and region. It is also not true that the spear was generally a cheap weapon or the poor man's choice. There are highly adorned pieces in Viking graves alongside swords and axes. There are wonderfully made ones from almost all periods. Their sizes and shapes would vary depending e.g. on context of action. Late medieval knightly duels on the ground as seen in Talhoffer and elsewhere, started with the use of spears. Spear and staff feature in many fighting treatises, and I see no indication for medieval European commoners being any less well versed in their martial use than e.g. their Chinese or Portuguese counterparts in other time periods. Paulus Hector Mair's fight books even compiled fighting arts for scythe and sickle etc., and wrestling matches appear to have been a common sports and pastime, too.
So what would be a ''common medieval peasants weapon''' Is there even a single type of weapon that could qualify as one? Here in Finland we're always taught about the so called cudgel or club war, the Finnish peasant rebellion that happened in the 16th century, and they always mention that the rebels mostly had clubs and cudgels (and blunt weapons in general) crossbows (often used by Finnish squirrel hunters apparently) some firelocks and a couple of cannons, I could imagine the blunt weapons would have been quite useful against armored opponents, but against the Swedish cavalry i don't know. There is also the fact that the idea of us using clubs as weapons was largely a Swedish invention as they viewed Finland as a very backwards and Uncivilized place, the fact that they were lead by nobility and even managed to acquire cannons and firelocks also points out that their weapons might not have been as archaic and unconventional as the Swedes thought. And while I believe history isn't exclusively written by the victor, they do seem to get their way more often than not.
Great points, from gaining the center to taking the shortest path, 'going straight for the kill'. As you already mentioned words from the Liechtenauer tradition one could go on: "So that when you want to attack someone it is as if you had a cord tied to the point or edge of your sword and this leads the point or edge to an opening. For you should strike or thrust in the shortest and nearest way possible. For in this righteous fencing do not make wide or ungainly parries or fence in large movements by which people restrict themselves." It comes right after the opening phrases about "and before all things you should know and understand that the sword is only one art and it was devised and thought out hundreds of years ago" Goes for spears of course as well...
I take it that he is talking historical fighting rather than re enactment combat. I would never have a spear so close to my face. It has always been a problem that we cant go for the face or feet ,
10:14 Seems like the spearhead got into the ground and it would be pretty bad for the person on the left, wouldn't it? I don't know anything about these things and fighting in general, just wondering.
I am happy to read that you like our kit. As for your query: This is basically Zornhauort applied to the spear. I have nicked the idea from an article on conceptual consistency by my friend Christian Tobler in his book “In Saint George’s Name“. It is a deduction of the according longsword play, based on the quote from Cod.ms.3227a, 13v, where it says “… there is only one art of the sword, …, and it is the foundation and the core of all fighting arts.“ At any rate, a spear ward akin to „vom Tag“ is seen e.g. in Talhoffer’s Königsegg Codex here: wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer/K%C3%B6nigsegg#/media/File:Ms.XIX.17-3_46r.png The caption translates to: „The blow from above downwards“ For quite a while now, I have been useing the spear to introduce people to combat and binding principles, because the spear's long range allows for a longer tempo which extends the overall action, plus, the longer levers allow for clearer pressure sensing, both of which helps students to grasp the under-lying principles more easily, just as I explain in the video. This has proved a very successful approach: students have little difficulty to adapt these concepts for the sword afterwards.
How would you deal with someone who actively tries to deny you a bind? Say for example what if the opponent holds the spear point forward and repeatedly shakes it up and down?
The cool thing about the tactics promoted in this video is that they do not depend on the opponent's willingness to bind. You enter under cover attempting to place your weapon in thrusting range, regardless of what he does. If you have a line, you thrust, if you need to bind to safeguard yourself and/or gain the center, you bind. Note that the rules of tempo always apply. This means that the time it takes for your opponent to do something is time you can do something, too. And vice versa. So any time he lowers or lifts his weapon, you have exactly the same time frame to act, too. If he decides to something that does neither threaten you nor wins him the center, he puts himself at a disadvantage, given you use this time to do something useful.
I was mainly thinking about what to do when you notice your opponent has better techniques and is significantly better than you at manipulating binds, but has slower reflexa and muscle strength due to age/past injury etc. Would you say under these circumstances that deliberately denying a bind, and therefore creating the pressure of a double kill, is a viable tactic in a fight?
In one on one the training is an aid, it turns actions into muscle memory, it increases the odds that you make the right split second second decisions and perform the actions correctly under extremely stressful conditions. Strenght DOES count. And aggression, more specific not hesitating to perfom what you need to do. The training will only teach you how to do things, but if your opponent is better or a lot stronger, in real combat, it's your end. Running away is always a viable option, but once the spears bind, there is no way back.
I forgot to ask about the diameter of your spear shaft, looks pretty hefty and giving the weapon considerable mass. It seems that while discussing points and their facets the importance of the shaft's mass and design gets often overlooked. BTW how heavy are those spears roughly?
Ok, thanks. Diameter, shape, wood of the shaft all affect of course mass and balance in combination with butt and point, langlets etc. Thus those factors greatly influence the way the weapon handles and it's use. Yet too often the inner diameter of historical spearpoints or polearms doesn't get published or shared. This makes research and reconstructions much harder.
Just want to make a point about the third technique. Of course I don't pretend to be a great master or anything like that, but I train with spears for more than year now and we also do full speed sparring with rubber/foam tip weapons. And based on that, I can say, that the above mentioned technique is too reckless. If the opponent is not a total rookie, more often than not they will be able to strike our core. From what I have seen and done, in described situation, when the bind is lost, the best decision is a quickest retreat possible. Chances of double kill if to proceed as described in this video are high enough. Again, I say this, because I've experienced it in full speed fights.
Thank you for your input. If one is not in control of the center, a retreat is always the wisest decision. But if I may, I would also like to point out that in terms of martial proficiency, speed is relative to your skills in practice. So I prefer to speak of maximum speed rather than the ominous "full speed". Speed is just a by-product of learning precision, if acquiring proficiency is your goal. It is generally completely over-rated, and my advice is to train at the one speed that does not overcharge a practitioner's skill - or else responses become intuitive, and that is exactly the opposite of martial arts. Starting any training at slow motion is an age-old approach. Going faster than your skill allows for is of little value and is bound to lead to wrong evaluations. Also, all we do is a fight simulation at best, so in order to better understand what form of sparring or practice you are exactly referring to would help to better understand your point. I would also like to add that in fencing as well as with any physical craft, it takes a minimum of three years of proper conditioning until you start to get your measures right in free application. I hope you do not feel patronized. It is just what I was told when I started martial arts proper many years ago, and found to be true.
I actually agree with most of what you've said. As about the phrase "full speed sparring" within our crew we so call basically a duel with protective gear and no rules other than "righteous are those who score a hit without getting hit back". I guess this term came to us from watching HEMA tournament videos and just stuck with us. Now, because of protective gear and soft speartips, fighters are not restrained in their efforts and that in my opinion can give us the closest thing to real fighting. Except of course no one dies and there is no desire to actually maim or kill an opponent.
animatr0nic, well take off your protective gear, go at a calmer speed and see what happens. The thing is that in all my years of martial arts practice, I have learned that nothing is further from the truth then conclusions based on sparring with safe simulators and full protective gear alone. I do not know if you are familiar with any historical combat treatise. But if you are, let me ask you ask you this: If what you think holds any water, namely "full speed, full protection = maximum realism", then why do we hardly ever see a HEMA tournament engagement with fully protected competitors that remotely looks and goes like the plays described in the historical manuals? Whatever it is, it is a far cry from the arts advocated in historical fighting manuals. Just like not every bar brawl is martial arts. But it is the latter that I am interested in.
I do not claim the viability of a lethal technique based on safe simulation. Quite the contrary. I express doubt about one particular move in this video which is not safe for the performer and may well end with their death. And that's because of geometry. Sharp tips, or low tempo won't change that geometry.
animatr0nic, works well enough in our sparring. I have successfully used it repeatedly, but correct pressure evaluation is a pre-requisite. But that is true for all actions coming from a bind.
The stances you and your partner adopt in this video (and the other spear video) are very interesting, just like something out of a manuscript! What sorts of advantage does such a posture grant you when fighting? (The answer to this question is probably obvious to any video watcher with martial arts experience, but I have no idea).
I am actually delighted by this query of yours. I have done some research into medieval body mechanics, and as you say, what we do in the video is indeed reminiscent of figures in period images. One advantage of this posture becomes apparent in a different context, that is with a shield. Take a look here: www.patreon.com/posts/hip-hinging-in-6110335 But more importantly, I found out that so-called hip-hinging is actually a very natural and most efficient way of using the human body that is still in use almost everywhere, save for so-called developed countries, where people sit on chairs most of their lives. No kidding. In the late 19th and early 20th century, it was still being used in Europe, see here: facebook.com/266934476773420/photos/a.269897019810499.1073741825.266934476773420/834217443378451/?type=3&theater And European and North American infants still do it before they are being forced to sit on chairs at school: media.gettyimages.com/photos/child-on-beach-looking-in-bucket-picture-id10011468?s=170667a Elsewhere, it is still no big deal: originaltravel.assets.d3r.com/images/hero_xlarge/241171-paddy-field-worker.jpg Note that back pain is hardly known with people who still apply hip-hinging. Here is an interesting lecture: th-cam.com/video/jOJLx4Du3vU/w-d-xo.html
Wow! Thanks for such a detailed response (and thanks for making these videos in the first place!). These comments on posture (plus all the maneuvers demonstrated in your videos and in your book illustrations) make me wonder how a medieval drama film depicting these reconstructed practices in its fight scenes would be received. Audiences might find it counter-intuitive, but I suppose if various other "alien"-seeming aspects of medieval society were depicted with similar attention, the entire experience would seem very authentic.
JM 01092016, I have actually often made the experience that demos of historical technique instantly made sense to audiences. Plus, I would not call Asian martial arts intuitive, either, and they are well accepted by movie fans.
You should do some fight consultation for the film industry! I wonder if anyone has ever compared how "Hollywood-ised" depictions of western medieval martial arts are in comparison to eastern ones.
JM 01092016 well, I would offer consultation if only there was according interest. But authenticity does not appear to be high on the entertainment industry's priority list, as you can see with pretty much any aspect of historical movies, from plots, sets down to props and costume.
Thank you. The shafts of my spears are of ash wood. I do not know about the short one, it is not mine. I neither know measures. I would have to check. But I usually carve my spear poles to a very gradual lancet shape. The one I am using is of octagonal cross section, the one Julien is using has a round cross section. I will complete measures once I have taken them.
In the region where I live ash is not very common, while locust is. So I have to rely more on locust specially if I need long poles. I have mounted my new XV century Eastern European spearhead on a temporary 2,5 cm diameter 1,7 m in length pole (longest one I could buy) and I feel it is a little bit too thin and too short. So I am preparing another one (I cut this one myself) that is a little over 2 m long and about 3 cm in diameter (this one has a lancet shape just as yours, so it should make a more balanced spear.) I am making the spear for mounted use mostly. This is the reason I have asked you the questions above. How do you treat the wood? Do you use some sort of varnish? I use flaxseed oil for arrow shafts, think would it would be enough for this?
Stefan Cociodar the maximum thicknesses of my spears is 3cm diameter for the two Viking Age ones and 3.7cm for the medieval one which is of octagonal cross section. Lengths are 235 cm, 250 cm and 255 cm. They are all treated with linseed oil (which I think is the same as flaxseed oil) and I keep them in a place where the wood does not completely dry out.
Thank you very much! Yes, linseed and flaxseed are the same. Best of luck in everything you are doing! Your videos are not only pleasant to watch but also very useful. I will keep in touch.
Have you ever had a Lute-Handicrafts sword? I've been interested in some of the models for quite a time now and want someone else's opinion...From the specs I can see that they are kind of on the heavy side?
I have a question. You say that it is useless to hit into the weapon, and I accept this from my personal experience, but I am having difficulty with interpreting Fiore De'i Liberi when he says "I am positioned to quickly beat aside my opponent’s spear, and to do that I step crosswise off the line with my right foot, crossing his spear and beating it to the left. When you step and beat aside together, that combination is hard to beat." It seems to me that he is advocating a hard rebatte (or whatever term is appropriate). Collin Hatcher translation of the Getty manuscript, spear section paragraph 2.
In this video, there is a counter technique which actually does beat aside the opposing spear: th-cam.com/video/vAxDqM8Qfz8/w-d-xo.htmlm1s So, yes, there are situations where you can keep or establish control by beating aside an opposing weapon. It is crucial that the action leaves you in control of the center, of course.
You can find striking with the spear from "vom Tag" like positions in unarmoured fighting in Talhoffer's Königsegg Codex. What I do in the video is basically an adaptation of standard German longsword play for the spear. I have nicked the idea from an article on conceptual consistency by my friend Christian Tobler in his book “In Saint George’s Name“. It says in Cod.ms.3227a, 13v: “… there is only one art of the sword, …, and it is the foundation and the core of all fighting arts.“ So I find it a legitimate and rewarding approach.
What I don't understand is why they, at the beginning of pretty much every move start out in a position where they lock out their front leg. I can see no benefit to that, and it greatly limits their mobility. Anyone who can comment on that?
This was the beginning of our experimenting with hip-hinging. We still hip-hinge as suggested by the historical sources we work with, but do not lock the front leg anymore, for the reasons you stated.
Hi sword people! Would you like to receive weekly up-dates on weapons research, sword-fighting, living history and more straight into your inbox? To read previous newsletters and to sign up, go here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/a8f72e8432
Hearing the gentle sound of rain, the singing of the birds and Mr Warzecha lecturing on martial arts. Delighting!
Martial arts meditation - ohmmmm!
the church bells at the end were a nice touch
On a side note: Your outfit looks awesome.
Oh, thank you very much for a compliment a vain swordsman gladly accepts!
I agree, those are some dope garbs!
I really enjoy these short but very detailed lessons. Thank you!
You are most welcome.
Excellent video. So many points of knowledge. Placing you on my must watch list.
2 points. On strength vs weakness. For most of the jujitsu counters I was taught, I was told 'go with it'. Go with the jujitsu technique being applied. Or use weakness to counter strength. We used the weakness to redirect to a position of strength
An American saying "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line". So it's also the fastest. Least distance to cover.
Indeed.
I really enjoy the way you talk. Great video!
Thank you very much.
Roland, you're a legend! I enjoy these videos a lot. Thank you for bothering, truly!
You are welcome anytime. Thanks for the enthusiastic reception.
Roland Warzecha The good thing is that it's really interesting and educational, since I try to put it to use in reenactment and theater.
The "bad" thing is that most computer games that includes melee becomes really lacking.
Anyway, as a teacher who worries about teenager's dwindling physical condition, this is a great way to catch the attention of gamers and make them interested in healthy activities which still piques the "nerdy" side of us.
What you said about not being most important to be the strongest really kicked home with my pupils. It really made impact on those who generally give up before trying as they consider themselves "at the bottom of the pile" physically. We aren't doing any actual combat training or anything like that in school, but it has impacted their performance in gymnastics all the same.
I could've just said so myself after watching the video, but I let them watch this clip as you said it so matter of factly that I thought it would really drive the point home. And it did!
Thanks again!
ZeroTheHero Wow, I would have never imagined that any of my videos here would ever be put to such a valuable use. This is most fantastic. Thank you both for doing this, as well as for letting me know. Most wonderful.
+Michel Dai - due to some tech glitch I am denied to respond to your comment directly. At any rate, I agree that sword-fighting and spear fighting have a lot in common, as least as far as duelling goes.
Another great video and wise incites to martial arts.
Thank you.
It is so enlightening to see the actual logic of Spear Play.
At least in regards to duelling it is very similar to sword-fighting.
Another excellent video.
Glad you like it.
Thank you for sharing part 2.
You are welcome. Glad you like it.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge~!!
You are welcome.
I got a question on this: As I understand it, the spear was basically the weapon of choice for common soldiers and peasants, because it was relatively easy and cheap to produce and to learn how to use. Would soldiers and peasants during that time actually spend regular time training to wield the weapon effectively, or would they only train during a time of war, or would they just be handed a spear before a battle and basically learn "on the job"?
Answers to your questions would vary depending on time period and region. It is also not true that the spear was generally a cheap weapon or the poor man's choice. There are highly adorned pieces in Viking graves alongside swords and axes. There are wonderfully made ones from almost all periods. Their sizes and shapes would vary depending e.g. on context of action. Late medieval knightly duels on the ground as seen in Talhoffer and elsewhere, started with the use of spears. Spear and staff feature in many fighting treatises, and I see no indication for medieval European commoners being any less well versed in their martial use than e.g. their Chinese or Portuguese counterparts in other time periods. Paulus Hector Mair's fight books even compiled fighting arts for scythe and sickle etc., and wrestling matches appear to have been a common sports and pastime, too.
So what would be a ''common medieval peasants weapon''' Is there even a single type of weapon that could qualify as one? Here in Finland we're always taught about the so called cudgel or club war, the Finnish peasant rebellion that happened in the 16th century, and they always mention that the rebels mostly had clubs and cudgels (and blunt weapons in general) crossbows (often used by Finnish squirrel hunters apparently) some firelocks and a couple of cannons, I could imagine the blunt weapons would have been quite useful against armored opponents, but against the Swedish cavalry i don't know. There is also the fact that the idea of us using clubs as weapons was largely a Swedish invention as they viewed Finland as a very backwards and Uncivilized place, the fact that they were lead by nobility and even managed to acquire cannons and firelocks also points out that their weapons might not have been as archaic and unconventional as the Swedes thought. And while I believe history isn't exclusively written by the victor, they do seem to get their way more often than not.
Great points, from gaining the center to taking the shortest path, 'going straight for the kill'. As you already mentioned words from the Liechtenauer tradition one could go on:
"So that when you want to attack someone it is as if you had a cord tied to the point or edge of your sword and this
leads the point or edge to an opening. For you should strike or thrust in the shortest and nearest way possible. For in this righteous fencing do not make wide or ungainly parries or fence in large movements by which people restrict themselves."
It comes right after the opening phrases about "and before all things you should know and understand that the sword is only one art and it was devised and thought out hundreds of years ago"
Goes for spears of course as well...
Absolutely! Thanks for your comment.
I take it that he is talking historical fighting rather than re enactment combat. I would never have a spear so close to my face. It has always been a problem that we cant go for the face or feet ,
Yes, this is about historical martial arts, not re-enactment fighting.
10:14
Seems like the spearhead got into the ground and it would be pretty bad for the person on the left, wouldn't it? I don't know anything about these things and fighting in general, just wondering.
Very nice. May I ask what fight manuals this play might be from or inspired? Thanx and love the outfits.
I am happy to read that you like our kit.
As for your query:
This is basically Zornhauort applied to the spear. I have nicked the idea from an article on conceptual consistency by my friend Christian Tobler in his book “In Saint George’s Name“. It is a deduction of the according longsword play, based on the quote from Cod.ms.3227a, 13v, where it says “… there is only one art of the sword, …, and it is the foundation and the core of all fighting arts.“ At any rate, a spear ward akin to „vom Tag“ is seen e.g. in Talhoffer’s Königsegg Codex here: wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer/K%C3%B6nigsegg#/media/File:Ms.XIX.17-3_46r.png The caption translates to: „The blow from above downwards“
For quite a while now, I have been useing the spear to introduce people to combat and binding principles, because the spear's long range allows for a longer tempo which extends the overall action, plus, the longer levers allow for clearer pressure sensing, both of which helps students to grasp the under-lying principles more easily, just as I explain in the video. This has proved a very successful approach: students have little difficulty to adapt these concepts for the sword afterwards.
How would you deal with someone who actively tries to deny you a bind? Say for example what if the opponent holds the spear point forward and repeatedly shakes it up and down?
The cool thing about the tactics promoted in this video is that they do not depend on the opponent's willingness to bind. You enter under cover attempting to place your weapon in thrusting range, regardless of what he does. If you have a line, you thrust, if you need to bind to safeguard yourself and/or gain the center, you bind.
Note that the rules of tempo always apply. This means that the time it takes for your opponent to do something is time you can do something, too. And vice versa. So any time he lowers or lifts his weapon, you have exactly the same time frame to act, too. If he decides to something that does neither threaten you nor wins him the center, he puts himself at a disadvantage, given you use this time to do something useful.
I was mainly thinking about what to do when you notice your opponent has better techniques and is significantly better than you at manipulating binds, but has slower reflexa and muscle strength due to age/past injury etc. Would you say under these circumstances that deliberately denying a bind, and therefore creating the pressure of a double kill, is a viable tactic in a fight?
Mouse Trap I do not think risking a double kill is a great option at all. Better run!
In one on one the training is an aid, it turns actions into muscle memory, it increases the odds that you make the right split second second decisions and perform the actions correctly under extremely stressful conditions. Strenght DOES count. And aggression, more specific not hesitating to perfom what you need to do. The training will only teach you how to do things, but if your opponent is better or a lot stronger, in real combat, it's your end. Running away is always a viable option, but once the spears bind, there is no way back.
I forgot to ask about the diameter of your spear shaft, looks pretty hefty and giving the weapon considerable mass. It seems that while discussing points and their facets the importance of the shaft's mass and design gets often overlooked. BTW how heavy are those spears roughly?
I would have to measure. But I like the meatier spear better than my lighter ones, in particular for this kind of combat.
Ok, thanks. Diameter, shape, wood of the shaft all affect of course mass and balance in combination with butt and point, langlets etc. Thus those factors greatly influence the way the weapon handles and it's use. Yet too often the inner diameter of historical spearpoints or polearms doesn't get published or shared. This makes research and reconstructions much harder.
Just want to make a point about the third technique. Of course I don't pretend to be a great master or anything like that, but I train with spears for more than year now and we also do full speed sparring with rubber/foam tip weapons. And based on that, I can say, that the above mentioned technique is too reckless. If the opponent is not a total rookie, more often than not they will be able to strike our core. From what I have seen and done, in described situation, when the bind is lost, the best decision is a quickest retreat possible. Chances of double kill if to proceed as described in this video are high enough. Again, I say this, because I've experienced it in full speed fights.
Thank you for your input.
If one is not in control of the center, a retreat is always the wisest decision. But if I may, I would also like to point out that in terms of martial proficiency, speed is relative to your skills in practice. So I prefer to speak of maximum speed rather than the ominous "full speed". Speed is just a by-product of learning precision, if acquiring proficiency is your goal. It is generally completely over-rated, and my advice is to train at the one speed that does not overcharge a practitioner's skill - or else responses become intuitive, and that is exactly the opposite of martial arts. Starting any training at slow motion is an age-old approach. Going faster than your skill allows for is of little value and is bound to lead to wrong evaluations.
Also, all we do is a fight simulation at best, so in order to better understand what form of sparring or practice you are exactly referring to would help to better understand your point.
I would also like to add that in fencing as well as with any physical craft, it takes a minimum of three years of proper conditioning until you start to get your measures right in free application.
I hope you do not feel patronized. It is just what I was told when I started martial arts proper many years ago, and found to be true.
I actually agree with most of what you've said. As about the phrase "full speed sparring" within our crew we so call basically a duel with protective gear and no rules other than "righteous are those who score a hit without getting hit back". I guess this term came to us from watching HEMA tournament videos and just stuck with us.
Now, because of protective gear and soft speartips, fighters are not restrained in their efforts and that in my opinion can give us the closest thing to real fighting. Except of course no one dies and there is no desire to actually maim or kill an opponent.
animatr0nic, well take off your protective gear, go at a calmer speed and see what happens.
The thing is that in all my years of martial arts practice, I have learned that nothing is further from the truth then conclusions based on sparring with safe simulators and full protective gear alone.
I do not know if you are familiar with any historical combat treatise. But if you are, let me ask you ask you this: If what you think holds any water, namely "full speed, full protection = maximum realism", then why do we hardly ever see a HEMA tournament engagement with fully protected competitors that remotely looks and goes like the plays described in the historical manuals?
Whatever it is, it is a far cry from the arts advocated in historical fighting manuals. Just like not every bar brawl is martial arts. But it is the latter that I am interested in.
I do not claim the viability of a lethal technique based on safe simulation. Quite the contrary. I express doubt about one particular move in this video which is not safe for the performer and may well end with their death. And that's because of geometry. Sharp tips, or low tempo won't change that geometry.
animatr0nic, works well enough in our sparring. I have successfully used it repeatedly, but correct pressure evaluation is a pre-requisite. But that is true for all actions coming from a bind.
The stances you and your partner adopt in this video (and the other spear video) are very interesting, just like something out of a manuscript! What sorts of advantage does such a posture grant you when fighting? (The answer to this question is probably obvious to any video watcher with martial arts experience, but I have no idea).
I am actually delighted by this query of yours. I have done some research into medieval body mechanics, and as you say, what we do in the video is indeed reminiscent of figures in period images. One advantage of this posture becomes apparent in a different context, that is with a shield. Take a look here: www.patreon.com/posts/hip-hinging-in-6110335
But more importantly, I found out that so-called hip-hinging is actually a very natural and most efficient way of using the human body that is still in use almost everywhere, save for so-called developed countries, where people sit on chairs most of their lives. No kidding. In the late 19th and early 20th century, it was still being used in Europe, see here: facebook.com/266934476773420/photos/a.269897019810499.1073741825.266934476773420/834217443378451/?type=3&theater
And European and North American infants still do it before they are being forced to sit on chairs at school: media.gettyimages.com/photos/child-on-beach-looking-in-bucket-picture-id10011468?s=170667a
Elsewhere, it is still no big deal: originaltravel.assets.d3r.com/images/hero_xlarge/241171-paddy-field-worker.jpg
Note that back pain is hardly known with people who still apply hip-hinging.
Here is an interesting lecture: th-cam.com/video/jOJLx4Du3vU/w-d-xo.html
Wow! Thanks for such a detailed response (and thanks for making these videos in the first place!). These comments on posture (plus all the maneuvers demonstrated in your videos and in your book illustrations) make me wonder how a medieval drama film depicting these reconstructed practices in its fight scenes would be received.
Audiences might find it counter-intuitive, but I suppose if various other "alien"-seeming aspects of medieval society were depicted with similar attention, the entire experience would seem very authentic.
JM 01092016, I have actually often made the experience that demos of historical technique instantly made sense to audiences. Plus, I would not call Asian martial arts intuitive, either, and they are well accepted by movie fans.
You should do some fight consultation for the film industry! I wonder if anyone has ever compared how "Hollywood-ised" depictions of western medieval martial arts are in comparison to eastern ones.
JM 01092016 well, I would offer consultation if only there was according interest. But authenticity does not appear to be high on the entertainment industry's priority list, as you can see with pretty much any aspect of historical movies, from plots, sets down to props and costume.
Gruß aus Baden-Württemberg! :D
Gruß zurück ins Ländle!
Great videos! How thick and how long are the spears you are using? How about the short one? And what wood are you using? Ash, black locust?
Thank you. The shafts of my spears are of ash wood. I do not know about the short one, it is not mine. I neither know measures. I would have to check. But I usually carve my spear poles to a very gradual lancet shape. The one I am using is of octagonal cross section, the one Julien is using has a round cross section. I will complete measures once I have taken them.
In the region where I live ash is not very common, while locust is. So I have to rely more on locust specially if I need long poles. I have mounted my new XV century Eastern European spearhead on a temporary 2,5 cm diameter 1,7 m in length pole (longest one I could buy) and I feel it is a little bit too thin and too short. So I am preparing another one (I cut this one myself) that is a little over 2 m long and about 3 cm in diameter (this one has a lancet shape just as yours, so it should make a more balanced spear.) I am making the spear for mounted use mostly. This is the reason I have asked you the questions above. How do you treat the wood? Do you use some sort of varnish? I use flaxseed oil for arrow shafts, think would it would be enough for this?
Stefan Cociodar the maximum thicknesses of my spears is 3cm diameter for the two Viking Age ones and 3.7cm for the medieval one which is of octagonal cross section. Lengths are 235 cm, 250 cm and 255 cm. They are all treated with linseed oil (which I think is the same as flaxseed oil) and I keep them in a place where the wood does not completely dry out.
Thank you very much! Yes, linseed and flaxseed are the same. Best of luck in everything you are doing! Your videos are not only pleasant to watch but also very useful. I will keep in touch.
Stefan Cociodar wonderful. Have a great day.
Have you ever had a Lute-Handicrafts sword? I've been interested in some of the models for quite a time now and want someone else's opinion...From the specs I can see that they are kind of on the heavy side?
I have no experience with this product, sorry.
never mind, thanks anyway :D
Where exactly is this? It looks eerily similar to my area in America.
This was recorded in the History Park Bärnau, in the South East of Germany www.geschichtspark.de/.
I'm a big fan of your videos. I'd like to practice HEMA with you guys! hahahaha
Have you ever done a video about the gladius?
Thank you for your appreciation. No, I have no experience with the Roman gladius, I am afraid to say.
I have a question. You say that it is useless to hit into the weapon, and I accept this from my personal experience, but I am having difficulty with interpreting Fiore De'i Liberi when he says "I am positioned to quickly beat aside my opponent’s spear, and to do that I step crosswise off the line with my right foot, crossing his spear and beating it to the left. When you step and beat aside together, that combination is hard to beat." It seems to me that he is advocating a hard rebatte (or whatever term is appropriate).
Collin Hatcher translation of the Getty manuscript, spear section paragraph 2.
In this video, there is a counter technique which actually does beat aside the opposing spear: th-cam.com/video/vAxDqM8Qfz8/w-d-xo.htmlm1s So, yes, there are situations where you can keep or establish control by beating aside an opposing weapon. It is crucial that the action leaves you in control of the center, of course.
wasnt it most common to use a spear with a shield ?
Yes, but not exclusively.
In the era where this spear play comes from, shield use had declined considerably.
What sources are you guys using for this?
You can find striking with the spear from "vom Tag" like positions in unarmoured fighting in Talhoffer's Königsegg Codex.
What I do in the video is basically an adaptation of standard German longsword play for the spear. I have nicked the idea from an article on conceptual consistency by my friend Christian Tobler in his book “In Saint George’s Name“. It says in Cod.ms.3227a, 13v: “… there is only one art of the sword, …, and it is the foundation and the core of all fighting arts.“ So I find it a legitimate and rewarding approach.
A very interesting concept.
I will give a tip to avoid having to learn this, just have a longer spear than your opponent 😂
"What's the point in training in years of martial arts"......Weeeeeeell........
What I don't understand is why they, at the beginning of pretty much every move start out in a position where they lock out their front leg. I can see no benefit to that, and it greatly limits their mobility. Anyone who can comment on that?
This was the beginning of our experimenting with hip-hinging. We still hip-hinge as suggested by the historical sources we work with, but do not lock the front leg anymore, for the reasons you stated.
Okay! That makes perfect sense. Glad to hear I'm not imagining things. XD
Thanks for a great video btw!