Tiers of Play in Dungeons & Dragons 5e
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We’ll talk about the four Tiers of Play in this video, showing you how to get the most from this extremely useful framework in your campaign.
Dungeons and Dragons 5e characters grow in power as they level up, and their adventures change in scope and scale to suit. Character progression advances through four Tiers of Play, and understanding how the game changes across tiers can help Dungeon Masters organize campaigns, create quests, and develop appropriate challenges for the player characters.
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What questions do you have about campaign, adventure, dungeon design, or Dungeon Mastering in general that you'd like to see us tackle in a future video?
Dungeon Dudes
Crafting Custom items ,really crafting things in general as it is really underused and creative
I want to play as an eldritch knight and i want to create items to fill any gaps on his abilities.
One of the ideas is a gauntlet that allows more cantrips or some spells storing abilities or not even more spells , just more spells learned (im thinking lt having attuned )
Or a enchanted sword mark of their own design that adds different damage types.
Really i have too many ideas on how to work around
It just seems that lots of people are afraid of tinkering on the game
Dungeon Dudes
Also , never forget to once in a while remind them of their power and their feats , make them be revered , make them be feared, have npc who they respect comment on what they are or have done
My favorite idea is that when the party goes to a new town, city or plane
They meet someone who is full of themselves
And they might have the power to prove it , but the party is stronger
Have the fighter in a duel with the captain of the guard who once laid the killing blow to an ogre he could be humble or not it is a great encounter to remind them of their power
Give the barbarian a bar fight or have them hold part of a collapsed building in order to help someone
Or have have the party have a terminator moment where they seem to survive the onlslaughtand deliver it back
Give the wizard a chance to use their knowledge to better the place they reside , teach a couple of lessons in the local mage school
Druid can instruct how to properly care the land with farmers ,teaching them that somtimes you need to burn the forest so it could blossom to so much more
The point is that you need to make them feel like heroes, big , damn HEROS.
Moments like that, make the game.
My group seems to always be hell-bent on splitting the party. I'd love a video on dealing with the mechanics of that while still trying to maximize immersion.
I think magic items or xp x milestone would be great issues to talk about, forgive if you already did lol. And great job with this chanel, your videos helped me a lot!
Magic items compared to level of adventurers, how to balance and develop both interesting magical items without breaking the party balance.
Leveling up in D&D: how characters go from Olympic athlete to Olympic god over the course of a campaign
That type of campaign setting is call a "Box Set."
Reminds me of "Night Below." Or even the "Tome of Horrors" box set.
Treat it as a video game that requires no down time for training your characters class skills and abilities.
something like clash of the titans.. the basic rules contains lots of greek mythological monsters.
You start nearly dying to wolves and finish killing Fenrir
@@carso1500 One of my buddies DID die to a wolf in our new campaign at level 1. (Direwolf pup) I mean, I DID land a nat 1 as a Rogue with a shortbow, shooting him in the back of the head and 1 shotting him with a max damage dice (ofc) so the puppies and their mom could just waltz up and start eating... But still the wolves technically did it right?
@@Soriosh if telling you that allows you to sleep at night then alright buddy
Hitting level 5 as a wizard is always when players realize how powerful they are, in my experience.
The party of my last 1-20 campaign is the pantheon for my current campaign. Epic tier is my absolute favorite.
Robuster Brown question because I love this: how do you handle the pantheon’s interaction with the new party? Do you control them as the DM?
Floormat1000 yeah, I sat with my players and we talked about how their characters would interact with the world. Nobody played a cleric so the gods didn’t come up too much in that campaign
I'm infatuated with the idea of the highest level magic. True Polymorph is my personal favorite
That is sick
I really love the character development from a 1-20 campaign, my Fallen Aasimar hexblade went from a bitter, cruel, and hateful person who wanted vengeance on the gods to the last remaining original party member who is now working to unite the world in a fight against the BBEG for the simple sake of it being the right thing to do.
Damn I thought I made a unique character, after reading this... Guess I was wrong
„You cannot expect to throw mundane enemies against third tier heroes and still make that a satisfying encounter.“ - Just the other day I saw Matthew Mercer pit Vox Machina at Level 12+ against an Orc Raider camp, which turned out to be quite an exciting encounter, because the raiders had laid traps and were using tamed direbears as guard animals. Also, the orcs had hostages which played an important role in dividing the heroes attention between fighting and rescuing. The fight might not have threatened them with a tpk, but it was exciting enough for the players to take the orcs seriously.
This is such a key point! Thank you for making it. This is a great example of how to up the ante with lower-tier monster and make them punch above their weight class. Had Mercer just thrown the beasts and orcs in at Vox Machina without the frame of the hostages and environment, it would not have nearly been as exciting! It just goes to show that with thought and creativity, mundane creatures can still pose a challenge.
I want to suggest that this point, while good in it's own right, is also what they were alluding to in the video. An orc camp throwing themselves at Vox Machina would fail, but an intelligent one with traps and tactics was exciting. It isn't apples to apples with, "Well I'll just have them kill 50 goblins this time". *necroing I know but commenting all the same :D*
blablubb Then he didn’t throw mundane enemies at them, he threw mundane enemies + traps + hostages. Dungeon Dude’s point still stands.
@@edcellwarrior The real point, however, is that you can use mundane opponents in intuitive ways to elicit a good response from players on how exciting it was. The goal is challenging the players and giving them something that takes effort to overcome. Try some trolls out with potions of fire resistance and haste. Things can change quite a bit challenging in those circumstances...
Long ago my players ambushed a small group of orcs. They figured out their mistake when they noticed the uniform equipment and a couple of them had rank insignias. They wound up playing hide and seek with a entire division of orc regular army troops. To their credit they saw the clues and knew 10 orcs, no problem, 10000 orcs, big problem. A sufficient quantity of mundane opponents loses its mundaneness.
Gandalf is clearly the DMPC. he has no rules hes the mary sue of the game. he soloed a cr 10 + demon
Gandalf was the DM's brother's PC from a previous campaign that gets randomly thrown in when the player is back from college. Also, he's playing the character with a D&D group at college, which is why he suddenly has new equipment.
while free falling
Well... we know that both Gandalf and the Balrog are Maiar and that they fought an epic battle in which they both died. It's just that Illuvatar brought Gandalf back to life and reincarnated him as the White Wizard. If you're confused about the history of the Tolkien universe I suggest reading the Silmarillion. It is a very rewarding (academic) exercise.
Galdolf: "THOUGH SHALL NOT PASS" (casts a fireball)
Narartor: later on, Gandolf finds himself surrounded by another horad of monsters.
Galdoff: (Fends them off with a short sword!)
Audiance: "What? No! Don't do that! Use that spell! Did you seriously forget you had that spell?!
Galdoff: "I can't. I'm out of mana!"
Gandalf is a CR10 monster himself ;) (he's a deva)
My very first campaign as a DM was on a homebrew world with 6 players. Over the course of Tier I, they saved one of the kingdoms from a coup, got hints of the Black Blood of the Uncreator, and met the leader of the big bads (seven ancient gold shadow dragons that were corrupted and are in a cycle of reincarnation, so they hope to end all creation so they can finally die). They spend Tier II trying to look for the McGuffins necessary for the big bads to do their ritual so they can stymie it. Along the way, they repeatedly ran into (and away from) one big bad who then flattened the kingdom they'd JUST saved, ending with a boss battle between the dragon and them + the remnant of the kingdom's army. Tier III had them traveling the world for the last few mcguffins and take out two more dragon big bads. Tier IV had them deal with a massive (think 1 billion) undead army, all civilization had crumbled around them, and the big bads managed to resurrect the Uncreator, a Chicago sized skeleton that began a slow march to the last bastion of civilization who's body served as the final dungeon, the last boss being them vs the last three elder dragons. After they defeated the dragons, the God of Cycles brought them outside their timeline and showed them every different Cycle or timeline of their world and asked each one to make a Wish in order to prepare the next timeline to better defend itself against the Uncreator. Then they each got to pick whether they went to the new timeline or returned to the post-apocalyptic one. The Paladin and Cleric decided to remain in the old world and keep eternal vigil against the seven perpetually resurrecting dragons, while the rest of the party went to the new timeline.
All of my following campaigns are set in the new timeline, where those party members who came over are now demigods or mythical figures.
TLDR: Embrace the epic.
I also love epic play. You can have great stories at any level range.
Kyle D My first campaign sadly never got to finish, but my party started out in my homebrew setting arriving to a nation’s capital city as escorts for one of the four Council members. While there, they found themselves fighting a troubled man who suddenly went berserk insane and had to kill him. After having a chat with the Captain of the city watch, they learned this wasn’t the first time this happened and ended up investigating and finding out people were being driven insane by a twisted version of the Geas spell that - if they failed to perform their given task - eventually turned them into a monster such as the former elf they encountered and killed in the sewers. At first they thought it might be a warlock or an evil wizard using this to try and take over the country until they infiltrated the manor of one of the nobles they suspected to be in on it and found the lord talking to a suspicious individual in clerical vestments (who promptly teleported out shortly after combat started. In time, they stumbled across the hidden Demi-plane of an ancient gold dragon tired of fighting that now masqueraded as an elf wizard who wanted to be left alone to his research (the demiplane was also being utilized by unscrupulous individuals, the dragon just barely tolerated their presence as long as they didn’t bother him, but he did eventually end up booting them all out). This demiplane had portals leading to different parts of the material realm: one in the capital city of several nations, and other assorted places. They used this to follow a lead they gained to a Roman-esque country overseas and learned there were similar problems going on there as well. Not only were there people being driven insane, what used to be the capital city’s palace (back when it was ruled by a warlord) was full of devils, skeletons, and the people who summoned them.
That’s where they found a massive necromantic ritual circle set to suck the life out of everyone for miles and miles around. As bad as that sounds already, it was linked with another circle - one that would use all of those souls to create a portal large and strong enough to enable Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine to bring him and his infernal armies into the material plane (which, due to ancient pacts the gods signed in the aftermath of a huge pre-history disaster, couldn’t simply hop on down to the material plane to stop him if it worked. Not without their own followers doing something similar). They managed to disrupt the ritual and keep this from happening, but one of the PCs died and they learned this was not the only one to worry about. Asmodeus’ followers suspected they were being tracked and had a similar ritual in the works back in the country they’d left behind.
So after doing some digging, they learned the ritual this time used a more complicated setup. Four circles like the necromancy one, smaller, but spread out to cover more ground, were placed around the country in ruins beneath four army camps where the country were training their troops in preparation for war (publicly, the Council blamed one of their neighbors for the recent disasters and troubles, and declared war). At least two of the Council were discovered to be in on the whole deal, plus a third they suspected wasn’t entirely willing. The party just barely managed to rush from circle to circle, smashing them up. However, what they didn’t plan on was the different mechanism these circles worked on. They didn’t yank out the life energy all at once, but instead siphoned it slowly away... so by the time they smashed two of them, they had already collected a substantial amount of energy. When that energy went wild, one of them had enough energy to wipe out half of the army camp (and would later, while they were away, lead to a tear forming and opening a portal to the negative energy plane and eventually lead to an undead apocalypse and a necropolis forming in that area).
With the ritual there halted, they finally learned where one of the big players was hiding back across the ocean. So after going there, they infiltrated the manor of a suspected blue dragon in disguise. They found their way to his private demiplane where he was holding one of their allies captive and... this is where my campaign stalled out, sadly. Right when they started the boss fight. Scheduling issues, people moving and the works. Had the campaign gone on, they would have faced the jilted, angry mate of a green dragon they slew before, an elf sorceress that had been manipulating things in the starting country, an orc lich who was providing much of the undead they encountered and based in a sub-continent further to the south that was promised a chance to live again (and be immortal), and the cleric who tied them all together acting on behalf of Asmodeus (and who was a mentor for the party’s cleric in the past before he turned evil in despair, promised to get his lost lover back). I had a very loose plan of a final confrontation between these individuals and the party, while the gold dragon (who I planned on being kidnapped and the party having to rescue him) and a hellfire wyrm fought in the background in order to stop the enemy’s final attempt at opening the portal.
Despite it dying before it could finish and it being a hot mess as far as my DMing skills, one of the players I still talk to these days still brings it up every now and then. So apparently they enjoyed themselves, even in spite of its ups and downs. But it was an epic, world-spanning campaign that would have taken them to every continent and face off against powerful devils and demons (who may have been inclined to help the party so their rivals couldn’t take over the material plane, but who were also hoping to open a similar portal for themselves and may or may not have tried to hijack it).
........ fuck yea.
Wow, that's some serious high level fantasy. Don't know how you ran it, but I bet everyone had a great time!
Totally stealing this for my campaign. I mean... Not all of it. 95% is fine, though.
Gandalf is one of my favorite wizards because when you really think about it, his magic isn't that impressive. He can do some damage when he needs to but I wouldn't even put it as high as a 3rd level spell. Where Gandalf excels is his ability to take advantage of how little everyone else knows about his magic, making simple illusion spells look like much more. His wisdom and charisma are also as high if not higher than his intelligence, making him a very sharp guy.
The Zekenator he’s a Trickster Domain Cleric. Use thaumaturgy twice in Fellowship alone
That's movie gandalf. Book gandalf especially the white is a 20lvl mage with tons of spellslots
@@georgemas he just doesn't use them to allow everyone else to do what they need to to advance themselves.
There's an easy solution for DM's who do not want to handle 4th tier: The powerful characters retire, and a new campaign starts with different characters. Maybe the old characters make an appearance as NPC's, showing the work players had with them didn't go to waste. Moreover, once the DM is comfortable managing a higher tier game, but the new characters have not reached that higher level yet, they could have their players seek out these legendary individuals, and then swap the new characters for the old and stronger ones.
Maybe the new party gets some basic magic items from the old party, starting them out ahead of the average 1st level characters
Yep, interleave the tiers. Have the players start new characters while the first set is still alive, then conspire to have the two groups interact. A high level cleric might feel like they've done their piece by founding a religion and a church and performing confirmed miracles, and the player may start to lose interest after achieving a particular level. It's time to introduce The Next Generation. That doesn't mean Jim and Spock and Bones won't still make a cameo from time to time.
What if you had a party that doesn't have any primarys spell casters? No wizards, clerics, sorcerors, or druids? I think it would be a lot less of a headache running tier 4 if you don't have to worry about high level spells. Non spell caster classes still stay mostly straightforward, and sort of linear in their effective power, and they almost never have any game changing abilities, which almost exclusively come from spells.
I was in a group that played every week or so through most of highschool (79-84). We played every week or two. More during holidays... less during exams. We ended at lvl 10. We overthrew the evil king and took over the kingdom. built a castle and fought off a castle siege complete with invading Dragons. Those of us that survived retired from adventuring to run the kingdom. Us players went off to college, military etc.
Back then getting to tenth level took YEARS of regular play and yes at that level you could rule a small country !
Dungeon Dudes: Superman and horror doesn't match.
James Gunn: Watch this (Release Brightburn)
Fair point. But in Brightburn, “Superman” is the monster, not the hero - which is why it works, because he’s a supernatural being of cosmic power.
That was one of the best descriptions of tiers of play I've heard since becoming a DM, and really helps to set the stage for my players. Thank you so much!
Glad you found it helpful! Go out and run an awesome campaign!
A method of keeping "low CR" or "mundane" encounters more dire for high level characters is actually very simple. Have them face groups, sure, they'll carve through them, but some hits will still get in there for a little bit of wear and tear. But what ups the danger is one of them being a "leader or a boss" of said enemy group and giving them Reaction abilities and/or Legendary abilities, and now that wear and tear from the weak mobs they have to deal with becomes far more life threatening for them. Or even just when you have a decent "wizard boss" giving them a "Blink Reaction" from time to time makes the encounter more difficult, on top of which have them use Counterspell when a PC is tossing out a much needed cure spell or better yet a mass cure spell; then what was once a "typical encounter" with just the addition with a couple reaction abilities suddenly becomes far more difficult and scary for even high level characters.
Superb tips!
@Naren Gurrier-Jones that just creates bullet sponges; I agree with other commenters, it's better to add another element than to simply ramp up the HP.
11:30 Harry Dresden is currently a multiclass Wizard/Fey-Pact Warlock with 'crossbow expert' (revolvers or carbine) and a rage ability built on to the pact. And Butcher ACTUALLY ROLLED STATS for Harry. He's got a high constitution so he can get beaten up all the time.
He also still has that Hellfire, so maybe Elemental Adapt (Fire) feat.
Tier 1: Agents of Shield
Tier 2: Guardians of the Galaxy
Tier 3: Avengers
Tier 4: Gods lol
Tier 5 Thanos?
EpicPie9121 tier 4: Goku
Tier 1: Captain America, Black Widow
Tier 2: Ironman, Black Panther
Tier 3: Vision, Scarlet Witch
Tier 4: Stormbreaker Thor
@@blizz3975 i strongly disagree
Tier 1: Black Widow, Punisher, Hawkeye, Captain America
Tier 2: Spiderman, Wolverine, Black Panther
Tier 3: Ant-Man, Quicksilver, Star-Lord
Tier 4: Iron Man, Thor, Hulk
Tier 5: Dr. Strange, Scarlett Witch
Tier 6: Thanos, Ego
Hey Gents - I know this is an older video but as a new player that has spent the past two weeks binging various D&D videos, this might be the best video I have ever seen (in my opinion) that discusses the gameplay experience. Outside of role-playing, which is an immensely broad discussion, your content here around the tiers of play opened my eyes to the D&D experience. I don't know how well this video resonated with others, but it seriously might have been the best video I have seen. Great job here
Kelly: In the heroic tier, death is still a very real thing.
Me: *remembering when the wild magic sorcerer rolled poorly on the table and casted Fireball on himself, nearly one-shotting the entire 5th level party and my cleric ending up grumpily reviving and healing four party members and 2 creature companions * Yeah, that tracks.
My players just leveled up to 11. This really helped me understand how to deal with tier 3 play. Thanks!
2 years to late, but just found the channel and im going back to watch older videos.
I just thunk about naruto, in anime terms. He starts with missions like locating missing pets, to then battling famed swordsmen, and fighting power minions of the at the time villian in orchimaru to try and save a friend.
Skip to shippuden and you have the tiers 3 and 4. Dealing with more calamity based events/people the akastuki, tailed beasts, global wars, reincarnation, and at the end a god trying to annihilate the world, and reacte their own world. The complete story of naruto scales verry much like a 1-20 dnd campaign and listening to this video caused me to relfect on stories like this or others for future campaign inspirations.
I don't know about you guys, but I've had success of facing even 3tier players up against goblins xD
Granted, it was like more than 100 goblins, a few competent goblin rogues hiding in the horde targeting the group's squishies, and 1 crazy goblin sorcerer casting random high levels spells that ended up killing itself and a dozen goblins, but also threw the party off!
And some traps, too.
We also used the extra rule chart for critical strikes because we love extra effects on our criticals, so when a few of the goblins rolled a nat 20, things got a bit more brutal :P
Don't discount the small guys, even at higher levels. They still make great fodder and adds to any boss battle!
Ever since Tucker's Kobolds, low-level monsters with excellent strategy and tactics are a time-honoured tradition for Dungeon Masters who need to humble a group of overconfident player characters.
Do you think TH-cam would be interested in us doing a few videos on how to do this?
I'm fairly sure it would! It is an important but poorly covered topic among the roleplay community on TH-cam, and really lacks in-depth attention.
One caveat I tend to keep in mind when being creative with low level monsters however is to avoid playing the monsters in a way where they become smarter than what they otherwise should be, as I often see tactical DMs sacrificing the roleplay aspect by making say their ogres or orc barbarians fight like NAVY-Seals tactical masterminds, optimizing each step as if it was chess.
I believe roleplay still matters in combat; and so the styles, abilities & tactics should reflect the monsters and their character and story.
Hence in my Goblin example although I put the heroes in a terrible position, I still played my goblins as a bunch of whacky oppertunistic ADHD suicidal children who'd flee the moment they became outnumbered even if it meant sacrificing a couple of them to "sub-optimal play" :P
Personally I think the video game series such as Vermintide are an excellent source of inspiration if you want to make Goblins or similar weak monsters threatening!
I agree. I think there needs to be a well-developed reason why the creatures are working with high-level tactics. Usually, it means the presence of strong leadership and/or magic. you bring up an excellent point that even the most tactically minded foes might have an illogical compulsion. A group of hobgoblin soldiers might normally be perfect tacticians, but they'll take unwarranted risks if it means slaying an elf. Ogres are typically brutes -- unless they are under the psionic control of a mind flayer.
The other component to this is that when foes have well-developed tactics, they often run, call for aid, or surrender before fighting to the death too. Part of the reason why Goblins and Kobolds favour hit and run tactics is that such methods give them plenty of opportunities to escape!
SinerAthin this is a great idea, a way with low level monsters!
I would love a video entirely centered on Tucker's Kobolds, whether it be the actual mechanics of how he used them (there isn't much information about that online) or just taking the basic idea of utilizing low power minions and running with it.
Gandalf is a DMPC
tmage23 yeah like disappearing whenever lol
Sure, if Eru Illuvatar was the DM :)
"They can summon meteors, and destroy entire cities with earthquakes and tsunamis..." My players went a totally different route. Ne🅱️🅱️as bought 14 mules as they are 8 goldpieces each, and someone came up with the amazing idea of using enlarge/reduce to make a giant mule, the party had 3 spell casters, the result, a gargantuan mule that then ran at full speed towards neverwinter, the whole city guard was terrified as they saw the colosssal mule coming from a mile away, every single guard went to the city border to ready their bows, wich they then fired at the same time as soon as the mule was in range, making a whole blanket of arrows and dealing somewhere near 2000 damage, turning the mule into a freakin' pincushion and obviously killing it in the process. Note, the other 13 mules were inside one of the travel bags that the giant mule had on one side, and the players were in the other, I rolled a die to determine on what side the mule would fall on, it fell on the other mules, making mash out of them.
Even though the arrows hit and killed the mule, of course the momentum of the gargantuan cadaver was way too much and collided with the city walls, destroying them in the process and still it kept going on. the dead mule destroyed about 1/4 of the city, killing probably thousands, BUT DAMN DID WE LAUGH LIKE CRAZY AT THE SHEER RIDICULOUSNESS.
One of the main reasons I love D&D.
I've DMed a couple of games, which I think were like Tier 6 (28th level) #bragging
It was Multiverse'n'stuff. One of the greatest games was when players were sent to investigate a world, which was dying, and they had to find out "what's wrong". One of the main objectives was to remain undetected because that world was not aware of the multiverse, and so according to the "multiverse law stated by the council of Twelve" their growth was not to be meddle with. Avarage mortal level on that world was 1st/2nd (biggest was 8th). It was fun to watch player trying to stay under the radar and investigate at the same time.
So cool! I love the idea of D&D continuity existing in multiple realities, and it's the perfect type of adventure for ultra-high level characters!
I DM in my home setting (mainly Multiverse + Spelljammer + loads of homestuff)
There are 3 general layers and travel between them is extremely diffcult.
Inner layer, Middle layer, Outer layer.
Middle layer consist of Material planes, called worlds, which are enclosed in warp-bubbles (it is hard to translate that made-up word). And those bubbles are configurated in a galaxy style fashion, and each of those worlds might be diffirent setting (Faerun, Eberron etc.).
It is far easier to travel between worlds than layers, but it is still a challenging job.
I've just felt I needed to explain all this.
BTW I like your content very much.
This channel desrves to blow up. Im a newer dm and ive been watching youtube videos for a long time learning how to better myself as a dm. I just found your channel today and its already been the most helpful. Thank you guys so much for these videos ans keep up the awesome work
Thank you! We hope you run a kickass campaign :) As a newer Dungeon Master, what are some of the most important things you've learned so far?
Cant believe it has taking me this long to find these great videos. These videos are so much more informative than other videos out there. Not naming any two old dudes names but i like that you guys bring in "real" world examples like comparable fiction rather than talking about 3 or 4 (barely relateable) campaigns you had run in your past for examples.
My upcoming bard is meant to break the game upon reaching retirement(at level 20) and becoming a demi god(but only when I'm done playing him)
I like levels 7-11 this is where my character feel powerful but not insane..yet.
I like low level play but for 11 years of playing D&D my highest level character was level 8 or 9 so I want to experience the higher tiers.
Hope you get to have fun at the high levels, and good luck on your Bard's path to divinity!
We are playing Prince Of The Apocalypse and going to continue on to Out Of The Abyss so I'll get there eventually.
Also I know the forgotten realms a lot better than my DM so I'll just use True Polymorph on stuff, cast wish through them and stock up on Tomes and other stuff to the point that I'm practically a demi god...The joke is if we ever run a campaign that is 100 ish years after this one my character would be a viable deity :P
True Polymorth is the strongest 9th level spell in my eyes.
Mokona
Honestly ,i kinda have to agrre on true polymorf .
It basically a spell that gives you free items and c reatures you've seen
And with a spell like legend lore findng mythical things it makes it a powerfull combination
Plus you could allways just have a small mouse or something and polymorph it in to a terrifying beast pretty much anywhere
Now thats a distraction
Telkei Also my character is Half Elf that is discontent with only being a half elf.
More over she was trained by a Leshay,an insanely powerful Noble Eladrine race.
Race change.
Same goes for any other member of the party who character wishes to become something else.
I like that you said to lean into the epicness of higher level play. Like being level 17 should mean you the party can alter reality almost to their whim. I feel like too many DMs are afraid to shift the tone of the game and want to keep the pressure on when in reality, my 17th level druid just wants to take a week and awaken every tree in the forest.
This was an excellent video, really gave me a perspective on how to escalate my campaign to the level I want it to come to.
Loved this video! Might be my favorite one of your series. Great way of looking at the different tiers and I appreciated the examples given for each. Really opened my eyes to where I can take a campaign for the final two tiers. Kudus!
Some really great insight in this video. I really like your guys' approach!
I started DMing as my first experience with D&D (since my friends didn't want to do it), never played as a player, and this video helped me confirm how i felt about the particular levels very well. The suggestions near the end are also similar to what I am doing and its great to hear that the foundation of a good campaign is not that far off from what I am thinking. Thanks for putting this topic out in a neat concise manner, couldn't find another video that gave such good comparisons. :D
This was so dang helpful! Campaign tone is really something I'm struggling with now that my players are in Tier 2, and I think with your advice, I'm going to try and get them more involved with the "realm," give them a larger reason to strive to be heroes!
I have always wanted to play D&D since i was a kid, but have never gotten past buying a couple manuals here and there. I think the intimidation of rules, and numbers, and checks have always kept me from getting into it. Thanks to you guys, the D&D universe is getting a new Vermin Lorde! Keep up the awesome videos guys!
Really well done. I'm running my first ever 1-20 campaign. I loved your examples from popular fiction for each tier. That really helped put things in context.
i'm glad i watched this video, its really helped me start to work through some anxiety i've been having with the campaign i'm currently in, I'm really struggling with with the shift from teir 3 to teir 4
Great video this really changed my perspective on campaigns thanks for the tips I definitely feel like I have a clear understanding of how to keep my players engaged now.
Tier 2 is best tier. Although I have to say tier 1 is home to some of my favourite memories.
It truly is the sweet spot, so much so that level progression by CP is deliberately slower in the tier to make it last longer!
I agree 2nd tier is awesome because alot of time, 1st is trying to launch the thing, 3rd is trying to make it hard without killing anybody--2nd is the meat of it
While every tier obviously has its perks, I honestly think Tier 4 is the best when it's actually ran correctly. It's often the climax of months of time with friends and between the insanely powerful magical weapons and the culmination of all your class skills, you can make some truly unique and fully fleshed out characters. Tier 4 is the tier where the web of lies your Changeling has spread across multiple kingdoms comes together to put him on the throne of the New World, the tier where your Shadow Monk Assassin can teleport behind someone and say those four little words before multi attacking with sneak attack, assassinate, and death strike all at once, the tier where your entire party gets into a debate about the wording of wishes with the wizard, and so, SO much more. It's just so insanely awesome to finally be able to go full anime with some of your attacks and the plot opportunities you get by interacting with the beings that drive the expansive lore of D&D are just unbelievable. Things can certainly get a lot grittier in the lower tiers, but nothing beats the climax of an adventure in my eyes. It's just so rare to actually make it all to this tier and it's just so rewarding and has so much potential that I can't imagine it being lower than any other tier.
That being said, it is fairly easy to mess up Tier 4 games. If you're still trying to run your game like a "normal" D&D adventure and don't fully embrace every aspect of the power of the players and take advantage of both the lore of the game and the plot threads you've been seeding throughout the story, it can start to get a bit generic and underwhelming. You can do basically whatever you want with your story at this tier of play and if you're not using that to create a truly unique experience for your players that acts as the pinnacle of their tale, I don't think it really holds up against tiers 1 or 2.
I think it’s overrated and needlessly restrictive.
This video gave me so much confidence!! I'm gearing up to run my first campaign and I've been terrified of pacing, but as your video went on I realized that each of my major plot points fit the tiers of play. Without realizing it i had set it up in a way that as they progressed the reality of what is occurring in the realm sinks in more and more until they finally realize the true enemy and danger. You guys just made me so happy to realize that I'm on a good path!
My opinion is that, unless you really like the "My guy's an assassin, but he doesn't have any of the benefits for another 2 levels (IE level 1 going to 3)" then always start at 3, 4, or 5
Your videos are insanely helpful! I'm about to start a new homebrew campaign with my group and this gave me a really good overview of how to challenge them at different levels
I think Shonen anime/manga might be the best example of professional stories that go through all DnD tiers. They are also written week by week, rather like a DnD campaign.
One can see a lot of parallels between Shonen and DnD/the advice you give here, such as the escalation of scale, having lower level villains be underlings in some vaguely defined conspiracy or other 'power ranking', a certain shift in tone etc. I'm most familiar with Naruto, in which the main trio go from escorting a bridge builder (maybe level 3-5 in DnD terms) to having to expend all their power to stop a meteor, to literally tossing about continents and jumping across dimensions.
You can see some of the inherent pitfalls with this type of story, like the inevitable plotholes and 'power cliffing', with top tier villains being such enormous escalations in power that each renders all previous arcs totally irrelevant by comparison. But one also sees that some powers do remain consistently powerful throughout all tiers, including most importantly the power of friendship. I speak, of course, of the only level 10 spell in DnD: talk-no-jutsu.
Good video - you gave me a better understanding of large-scale campaign planning and how to differentiate the tiers, in particular, keeping things small and ‘local’ at the start. Thanks!
Great vid, great discussion and great examples/explanations. Thanks!
I just discovered you guys last week with the class breakdowns, got hooked! And I’m running my first ever campaign (been a player for over a year). And this breakdown was more than helpful and is gonna help me get an idea of the world I’m making!
Wonderful! Thank you! Let us know if you have any questions about worldbuilding. This is a topic we want to cover in a future video! Hope your world and campaign really capture your players imaginations!
@dungeon Dudes I really love your channel. Good, sound advice and explanations with a couple different perspectives, explained well and elabroated on interestingly. I could listen to you guys for hours and i'd love to sit at your tables.
your best video yet! it's a subject we all "know" of but not many good videos on the Tiers of Play. we "know" Tier of Play but fail to really think of it when session designing or campaign building thankyou for the reminder. super video keep up the inspirational work
Thank you!
This was extremely helpful. Thank you, Dudes!
This was an amazing video and I really appreciated the lay down of the tiers. Really puts perspective into the game play and helps me as a DM. Thank you both!!
Just recently found you guys and I'm loving it.
One comment though. You say no real world person is about 3 lvl. I would argue that some of the great athletes reach 5th. A good example in my opinion is Muhammad Ali, dozens of effective hits in a quick span, decent durability and dodging. In D&d 5e terms I would call him a 5th lvl open hand monk.
Glad you are enjoying our channel!
I think you are right. Likely a few people in the real world could be considered higher "level". What I wanted to emphasize in that point is that there is a tendency to imagine the most badass people and heroes as 20th level characters, usually on the basis that these people are the strongest within their own world or story. Instead, if we look at what they are actually capable of, it helps us see just how amazingly awesome even low level characters can be. You can then use that as a reference point when roleplaying your character and describing their actions.
As you say, it's totally realistic to describe your 5th level Monk as someone who could move like a butterfly and sting like a bee!
I'm just looking into DND and you guys are awesome. I've seen a ton of your older vids over the past couple of weeks. Amazing content, very informative!!!
Awesome! Thank you!
Thank you so much for this video. I had heard of the tiers before but never really looked at it, assuming it was just someone's way of looking at it. But this video really helps me place the world and villains and story arcs that I've thought up for the campaign I'm running. The party is mid level 3 now and at the current pace I think they're going to have dealt with the villain behind the local threats by the end of level 4, so I'm going to hone in on that for a switch to the villains behind the villain for Tier II. It's so satisfying to know that this fits into a good framework that exists already in the game.
I don’t think you e made a video I haven’t loved!
I remember the first “ronin warriors” boss was a single dark soldier the whole team had to fight together. By the final season each of them was literally defeating hundreds each battle alone. That showed me I needed to scale adventures from rats all the way up to rat god avatar as the prime foe.
dungeons of drakkenheim moment
A good way to also think of higher level DnD is by thinking of RPG character in videogames (Final Fantasy, Golden Sun, etc.) doing this world shaking summons
I'm at the end of a 2 year game where I'm the DM. My players started around level 3, and they discovered a cult around an elder evil. Over time, it's escalated from a cult to a conspiracy to a massive ritual that now is summoning the elder evil, and the players are about to fight a moon-sized creature. Should be fun.
Thank you for making these guides, Dudes, they are fun, informative and well made :D
I am in the middle of homebrewing my first campaign which I am intending to go from levels 2-15. This video has definitely been very helpful to that process
Very helpful. Thanks guys.
There are very few D&D Channels I follow actively both this and Matt Colville, this is one of them. In fact, I'd say this is one of your best videos. Just wrapped up my campaign and am prepping for the next one, going to be using this for the design. Awesome video, keep em' coming!!
We are so flattered to be even remotely compared to the mighty Matt Colville. Thank you!
guys you make it so easy to understand love ur stuff as always
At there was a point in my campaign where our group was all 13+ we had just finished an arc where we had defeated an army of orcs saved the kingdom and the king made us heros and granted us wishes.
After that the GM had to think of something else so we were sent to face a lich who had turned an island into his undead army. We get there the GM had setup an encounter of over 150 undead for us to fight. My wizard nuked groups with AoE spells gave protect from good and evil to our paladin, who charged in with high armor and "protect from good and evil" nothing could hit him and he had (i forget the name a constant AoE spell dealing radiant damage) which one shot everything. After 3 rounds of combat we had 30+ enemies beaten and had taken no damage. The GM had set up this encounter thinking it was cool and intimidating but it was just tedious for them to manage so many enemies and boring for the group to deal with so many enemies that were not challenging. So the GM just said "OK this is boring you guys are clearly winning you just win."
So loads of weak enemies is not really fun in my experience its just time consuming when you know the enemies are not a threat. The fight with the lich was better he had a undead dragon and some elite soldiers making us actually prioritize targets and think as they could take a few hits each and had abilities that could effect us.
I would say avoid loads of weak enemies and have a big enemy (or a few if your really strong) with a story behind them.
Watching these videos a few years later really highlights how much you've progressed and the content on this channel is now god-tier !
Lower level Monty used to spend so many time in "Hmmm"s and "Huuuu"s, it's kinda cute now
SUPER JOB guys and your best video to date IMHO. Tiers of play are things that new players and even some experienced ones may not factor in. Your discussion was excellent on this important and easy to overlook topic.
Interesting comments on Game of Thrones!; yes, actually a low magic setting. I disagree with you a bit about Lord of the Rings but it's okay, of course. Just the idea of looking at a famous story (GoT, LoTR, Dune, Conan, etc.) and trying to line up characters with a game's character system is pretty darn cool. Even classifying a character can be tough. While Aragorn is the prototype Ranger, Paul Atreides is definitely a multi-class character.
Funny comment on Superman, particularly about heroic/super hero not blending well with horror. Back in '80 or '81 or so (I think) there was a Superman novella about him taking on what you might think of as a classic Earth demon. I read it and it was pretty cool and all but...yeah, those two genres just did not blend well. At one point, Superman just basically punched the demon out.
I've played up to level 20 and recently had a human wizard finish at that level. I think the most fun, challenge, and just overall exhilaration were from about 5th through 15th levels. High level play can be tough for players and the DM alike. If you have a well-rounded group, it gets to the point that there isn't much you can't do. Our DM did a great job of handling things and, at that point, I think the challenge of playing in and DM'ing high level play may be about equal.
Please keep up the great work!
Thank you for the awesome comment, and for sharing your experience with high-level play (especially a wizard -- a VERY complex class to play at 20th level!).
Any other overlooked topics you like to see us tackle in a future video?
Fantastic video, I will definitely have to rewatch this again some time. Ive seen a few videos from you already but this one made me subscribe.
24:00 it's oil and water 😹 I think you just want italian food 😁😁
I find the sweet spot for me is between levels 4 and 8
Its high enough that I don't worry about accidentslly TPKing if I try to challenge the party more but not so high that it becomes difficult to challenge them without at least halfheartedly trying to kill them.
One of my favorite story arcs are that where the main “bad guy” has an agenda and the party knowingly and unknowingly randomly encounter the same enemy who is leveling in his or her own adventure in order to achieve their goals, which most likely wind up with them aiming to eventually go after the party specifically because they now are a liability. In my most recent adventure, I made it open ended where my main enemy could have become nothing because he was set in a start dungeon that was set up to teach some new players mechanics. At the end of the dungeon was a minor bad boss(major to them) that had a goblin in unique garb that had its eye ripped out and was being tortured because he had a scroll of “knock” that was written in an ancient goblin dialect that he alone knew(foreshadow the rarity of this particular goblin). The party eventually takes out the boss and finds a chest that their rogue can’t open.(one attempt fail was the first thing that left them to need the goblin) the goblin offers to open the unsubstantial chest. The party’s healer used their touch to heal the goblin. They agree the goblin is allowed one item in the chest. The party needed a special amulet in the chest and they agree to let the gob out based on their agreement. The chest had a special lock that required the knock of that specific scroll read in ancient gobby. The chest open, inside is a dagger, ring and the amulet(along with a whopping 500 copper!). The party gets the dagger the amulet and the copper. The goblin grabs the ring and tells the party,”for your sake I hope this is the last we see each other.” And teleports out. The ring was linked with a mountain fortress that the goblin, along side the party’s campaign, engages a trial to strengthen his existence. Occasionally the goblin sends minions as he gets more powerful that the party encountered and stopped. The campaign concluded with a massive battle where they encounter the “Monocular Goblin” as he tries to destroy the realm(engaged by his backstory[not enough space here]), the party enters an epic battle that couldn’t have played out better. The party survives on 2 raise fears and the living members with single digit hp, and after the battle they realize that this main bad guy was the goblin they saved in adventure 1, and that he was setting traps throughout their adventures but not continuously. One player ended the campaign with,”I need to outside for a smoke and absorb this” absolutely satisfying adventure
Ah! Now I understand how to contextualize modern D&D levels. I remember when 1-20 was "Tier 1", 21-40 was "Tier 2" and so on. But it didn't stop at Tier 4. Approaching level 100 ("Tier 5"), a player interacts with/becomes a FUNDAMENTAL FORCE OF THE UNIVERSE like Entropy itself. I never had the chance to properly play back then, so I'll admit I never understood what Level 81-100 god-like play could possibly mean for a play session, but it was definitely impressive-sounding.
thanks for explaining all this guys, great video and analogies
Hey guys big fan, love your videos and have been binging them, great stuff. You might want to tag spoilers for licensed campaign modules just putting that out there, I haven't played through Rise of the Dragon Queen yet and I lowkey learned some plot points in this video that I'll now know FOREVER hah. Great video otherwise though, like usual, you guys are my favorite youtube DnD channel hands-down.
Great video guys keep up the great work!
Great video! I was, however, hoping to have an exploration of what's in the tier from a mechanical standpoint: at 5th level, fireballs are being thrown, and extra attacks are coming from martial characters, call lightning is available, etc. As someone who hasn't played in a T3-4 campaign, I wanted to know which game-changing abilities crop up when those characters ding level 11.
And that's why Rola o Dado is such an amazing campaign
You can easily trace down the character development and the story progress through the gameplay tiers
I’d really love a video about challenge rating from you guys
I’ll be starting a new campaign tomorrow with my players after almost half a year of not playing. I typically play below level 5, but I’m actually starting them off at level 7 so that we can experience the higher tier abilities that we’ve read and have looked forward to. We’re even going back to my home brew world after having tried some premade modules.
Another excellent video.
Thank you!
I still remember the first combat encounter in a session with my brother and his friends(he was DM).
We fought, *and survived,* what the following week's session, my brother confessed he made a mistake; that was supposed to be *three separate encounters.* 😂
Day one, we get bum-rushed by a small army, and we kicked butt☺.
This was in D&D 4E(my brother's first time as DM, he wanted something simple, fun, and exciting).
Getting back to this video, having heard all tiers, I find it to be a great test to a DM(or aspiring writer in my case), to take any genre to any tier. Horror to tier 4? Fight the Trigon-esk demon plaguing existence with these nightmarish monstrosities. You don't have to give yourself that much of a headache, but it could be an interesting challenge.☺
Just found this awesome video. I am part of a campaign where the DM has neutered a lot of our abilities (or at least their novelty value) with scaling NPCs (in other words, no one is special and even a commoner is a possible Merlin but simply chooses not to) rather than using the monster manuals and allowing us to excerpt our true power in any other campaign. He has us going through the Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign right now (which I've heard is supposed to be T1-T2) with characters lvl 13-17 (my Warlock has survived the longest and is 17) and we're still playing like T1 characters. Hobgoblins with 70hp, the skeletal alchemist being a Lich, yet the insects in the haunted mansion could be one-shotted so go figure. I continue to play because it's the first time I've ever made it to lvl 17 (and to use True Polymorph). But I'm glad that by lvl 17, in any other campaign my warlock would be appreciated/feared (and not be afraid of encountering NPCs such as guards that could be practically shape changed ancient brass dragons).
An idea I had was at the beginning of each campaign I was running with the same set of character's they run into an encounter with some Goblins, or just some Bandits. The first time 3 the second 6 and the third nine. The whole idea is to make them feel how much stronger they've gotten between then and now and really feel the progression. And yes they're going to dominate them.
I understand. My Bard 8 / Warlock 3 character is a legendary hero. That's why last week he did the Wonder Woman transformation technique to literally turn himself into Lynda Carter and throw a star from her bodice at a dragon (robe of stars + disguise self).
That was really helpful!
"when you see a cool monster and think: what if there where two of them?" exactly my thought when i learned what a beholder is, now there are two highly narcisstic and paranoid beholder, trying to overcome eathother, thus threatening everyone around them with their rising numbers of minions and the cults starting to gather around them, and now i have the main idea for my first campain :D
The Dresden Files starts with a level 2 PC in a level 1 world surrounded by CR 5 threats.
The Dresden Files right now is a level 15 PC with a bunch of allies that wildly vary in power surrounded by CR 20-30 threats.
Answering the three opening questions: Yes, yes and yes XD
great video btw
I think there is a divide within the initial tier that comes with level 3. That's when you have to pick all your class features, which will guide many of your options going forward. The first two levels hopefully provided time to know the setting well enough to choose wisely.
"What do you mean, I have 9 hit points? That doesn't seem reasonable." :D
Great video. My style of DM is higher levels. I do not care much for the low level monsters so I either start at level 5 and usually with magic items or level up very very fast.
At high levels your players are going to wreck, you just ha e to let it all happen.
It helps if you can write a good story and the characters are vested in the world(s) similar to the Valar. They are powerful but there is a cost to wielding such power either to the world or they wish to allow free will of the humans.
Another interesting twist is side kicks or henchmen the high levels can't do everything all at once. If they are too high level take a break and have them take side kicks on an adventure , of course they get over their heads, and the high levels have to decide where to spend their time and energy
Love this video and the real-world/pop-culture comparisons but I think you might be underestimating Aragorn's power in terms of D&D Character Level. Not to fanboy but he's one of the Dunedain, he's probably the greatest fighter in a world full of ridiculously amazing fighters. He's quite literally superhuman, it's just that LOTR-while being high fantasy-is really light on a lot of high magic/fantasy flavor when it comes to individual heroes flexing their full capabilities, but this capabilities are certainly there and their feats speak for themselves.
It makes sense if you look at Aragorn _as_ a Fighter (I know he's a Ranger but he's definitely not a Ranger in the D&D sense even though the D&D Ranger archetype is ironically totally based on Aragorn), since fighters can reach high levels without ever gaining access to ludicrous magic or ever being able to resurrect themselves or others from the dead but they're absolute forces to be reckoned with on the battlefield.
I played in a high-magic homebrew game once. The object was to avoid becoming a god because you really couldn't continue playing if that happened.
I remember one battle said "The BBEG casts X. You're all dead. What are you doing?"
Some of us decided to resurrect ourselves, and others decided to continue as undead. (There were some advantages to being alive, but it wasn't necessarily worth taking the time to come back to life right then.
That was a pretty high level campaign. :)
Hey all, new DM here, thanks for being so helpful!! Got a question though, where would you Rank the PC from a fallout game in terms of tiers??
No higher than tier 2.
Tying Tiers of Play to subgenre of Fantasy is inspired! It describes the challenges and feel of each tier in a really meaningful and clear way.
I got my hands on an old first edition adventure and a conversion guide. I have to say, one of the hardest characters to ever for me to stat is someone like Red Sonja. Most of her stories take place solidly in Tier 3, Tier 2 at the weakest. But in other stories...she's fighting and winning against Odin, Loki, and Jormamgundr. And then the current run throws that out the window, because she's learning English in a single day, getting shot and recovering within a few hours. So, sometimes she feels like a level 11 fighter (what the old adventure has her stated as) and sometimes she feels like a Legendary Dreadnaught, which was a 3.5 epic level class.
14:37 This gave me an idea for a cursed magical item. Boots, belt, whatever. Whenever the character wearing it rolls a 1, the item hoists them into the air a height of 1d6×10 feet. If that height would cause them to strike the ceiling or similar surface, they make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, they take 1d4 Bludgeoning damage per 10 feet traveled, or half that on a successful save. At the start of their next turn, they float safely to the ground.
Speaking of Guardians of the Galaxy, I absolutely love the fan headcannon that they are simply the PC's in a campaign Bucky is DMing. Steve Rivers is playing Rocket as ridiculously as possibly to troll Bucky :D
I personally am running a "low magic" campaign, where I took down the tiers one notch for the characters, so they are currently at lvl 9 only slowly starting to aquire the "we're preventing realm-changing desasters" (or causing them in my case) levels of power.
I personally think that there's really nothing preventing you from going that extra step and have your characters feel powerful, yet throw them into a setting where there's something so immensly more powerful than them, if you're willing to do some working around (imo).
That being said, I have no damn clue how I am going to bridge the gaps between "you opened the portal to hell" to "you are facing a Lich with his 1000 year army" to "yeah, by the way, this god just reclaimed his mantle" - assuming my players stick around for that long.
I am currently already facing problems when its about "you are facing a Lich", especially since that monster in particular just feels like a "you can't win" type of deal. Maybe have the Lich command around a Beholder and hold an adult draco-lich? Any suggestions on where I could bridge that difference? (Also how do I throw in that curveball vampire I wanted to use)
You bring up a great idea: that of the "tier shift" -- where the players are faced against foes or a situation with higher tier abilities than they can handle. This is a great tool you can use to design a campaign.
A great way to bridge the gap between plotlines and villains is to use a period of extended downtime between tiers, followed by the introduction of a "simple" threat that turns out to be much deadlier than the players expected.
So, for example, perhaps the "curveball vampire" is introduced first as a minor antagonist after your players have some downtime. In the process of dealing with this vampire, the Lich emerges as a greater threat. The players then have to negotiate around whether the vampire will become an ally against the Lich, or powerful general in the Lich's forces.
Finally, I'm a fan of the well-defined timeline, and the VERY busy villain. The Lich's plans hinge on a lot of moving parts. Perhaps they have to personally perform a magical ritual for 8 hours every day for 99 nights which drains a great deal of their magic, which is why they are well-protected in a stronghold. So their ability to deal with adventurers is constrained. But, if the players don't defeat this threat with X months, then the situation will rapidly become unwinnable as the Lich now has finished summoning powerful undead armies.
I like when you defeat the boss enemy just in time before you kill it, the other 4 show up to save the day. Evil lives to fight another day. Now there's 5 and the campaign world explodes in size and scope for tier 3.
Who are these people who hate tier 1 play? Personally, I really like the risk that's everywhere for the first few levels. Fearing a dm's random crit is part of the fun!
I really enjoy low level play personally, though I know a few friends have said they've played so much low-level D&D that they feel like higher-level play helps them experience something new.
Dungeon Dudes I can see that.
I don't like tier one play. For me, combat is the most boring thing you can do in a ttrpg, and at higher tiers of play I usually get more of the game that I enjoy.
My group looks at it as something to get through to get to the good stuff. They all want to be playing characters spoken of in the same breathe as a Heracles or Gilgamesh. It's always fun to get that one party member who thinks that he's Kratos and charge a god...only for that god to say "bitch, please" and swat them aside.
I personally think that the best tier to play is the tier 2. I do enjoy tier 1, but is too tiring having to deal with exp hungry players, and to hold back to not kill your party, and having to limit that amount of shit you got to trow at them. Tier 2 on the other hand can deal with a wide range of menaces, and they can even be capable of dealing with the villains I always use, vampires
I tend to cap my games at 11th level, which I view as the peak (or just beyond) of normal capability.
So, you can fight liches, but can not become one themselves.
The watcher in the dark- you can’t eat it but battle to reach the door to the mines! Nice
You guys are great!