The skewed bias of the coin toss is a perfect mirror though, for Harvey's working within the justice and political system. As Harvey, he placed his faith in a system that was 'supposed' to be fair and unbias...but wasn't. As two-face he places his faith in the flip of a coin - a system that's 'supposed to be' random and fair...but isn't.
K. Medeiros egh. Not really. The "system" doesn't work because humans are corrupt prices of shit, the coin toss doesn't work because of science. Mirrors(in literature) only work when it is because of the same reason.
The coin is unbiased, Two Face is not. Two Face is a gambler, and like any good gambler Two Face is well aware of some tricks to push the luck in his favor, like, let say, spinning the coin knowing that there is a bigger chance that the face that will punish the other player because is the lightest, or putting extra weight in one side of the coin raising up the posibilities for the heavier side to go down.
The fact that he is driven mad by the idea of needing to uphold fairness makes me doubt that he purposefully stacks the deck. He seems to genuinely want random chance to determine everything. There was even a comic where he couldn't go to the bathroom unless chance called for it. That behavior doesn't seem like that of someone who is intentionally cheating.
+NerdSync The rules were set: thehouseofwhispers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dent5.jpg Does Batman Die at the end of the comic? Because the coin said he should have mendthiscrack.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/arkham3.jpg At the end of the comic Dent disregard the judgment of the coin, he cheated, as I state, he is not a judge, he is a gambler.
If Harvey believes the coin is fair, then it's fair, at least according to how he views the world. It's only when he sees that the coin is unfair that he can break from the Two-Face persona and make a decision as Harvey.
Wanted to clarify about the *coin tossing machine* from the animated series. Even though it would only be smart to test it before Batman got there, let's assume Two- Face didn't. Is the outcome still random? No. It does not matter if Harvey knows which side it's going to land on. Heck, he probably thinks this whole machine is 50/50, but it's not. The real-life coin tossing rigs only needed "careful adjustment" to start heads up and lands heads up specifically. Two-Face's rig does not need those adjustments. It can just be let loose. It doesn't matter which side it lands on. The point is that it will likely land the same way each time regardless. Are there other variables to consider? Sure. Batman could wiggle and such. But if he's strapped down tight without the ability to create enough momentum to change the direction of the enormously heavy coin in the air, then likely it won't matter. We get a dozen Batmen on a dozen coins, and the machine will very likely toss them all the same way. Even if it's not 100% the same, it's far from 50/50, and that's all we need to say it's not Two-Face's ideal "fairness".
NerdSync I also think it's important to note that just because Two-Face doesn't know which side the giant penny will land on, don't mean that it's random or fair if every penny flipped that way would land on the same side.
I still think this is random. Just because the outcome is already pre-determined in a way due to how it was machine configured doesn't change the fact that the outcome was 50/50 at the exact time the machine WAS configured. As long as he hasn't tested the machine and doesn't know what the outcome is it's still up to chance.
+Psytrese This is how I feel. It's still free from perception bias, like taking a coin out of his pocket and flipping before looking at it. It's still done in fairness, even if it is scientifically rigged.
The problem is Two-Face is a lawyer, not a mathematician, he's just an insane person who doesn't know what he's talking about. It's also possible that his writers, being yaknow WRITERS, aren't good at math either.
Did you ever read the Arkham Asylum comic? The staff tried to move Harvey to objects with more and more possibilities, to help him get over seeing everything in black and white. They went from the coin, to a die, to a deck of tarot cards. That gives him 72 options. The downside though, was that at that point, he couldn't even make a decision like going to the bathroom or not.
What if you held the coin vertically and threw it in the air? There's no bias based on the side facing up, but I wonder if the hand you're holding it in and which side is held by the fingers or thumb would make a difference.
I like BTAS origins for two, Harvey already having schizophrenia and stress and trauma pushing him over the edge. Not to mention Batman causing him to be permanently scared.
I don't think Harvey is actually concerned with fairness. He likes to profess fairness as some sort of justification for his crimes, but ultimately he does his best to set up scenarios where his coin toss lets him win whatever the outcome.
One other factor is, with a hand flipped toss, if Two-Face ever wants to cheat, he can cheat. Easily. The reason is because when you flip a coin and catch it, do you open your hand to show the result on your palm, or do you flip your hand down onto the back of the other and display the result? Two-Face has likely done both in the past, and if he's playing fair, it doesn't matter which you do, but if he wants to cheat, the "scarred" side would have a clear sharp texture to it, if he catches it, he should know the result through touch alone, so if he wants the scarred side, and feels the scars in his hand, he can just flip it onto his other hand. If he feels the smooth side, he just opens his palm. Nobody's going to call him on it.
Nova1080 good point, but since most of the things in Gotham, they have the Wayne stamp, so I figured since Batman is such a cool guy, he could develop something for Dent to use, and just like xenontesla122 said, it could be rigged, so that it worked just how batman wanted it to.
I'd say the coin flip is random enough, at least for Harvey, seeing as how he probably doesn't know all the sciences and whatnot being the probabilities.
+Niop Tres It's possible to rig a coin toss by learning how to flip a coin to get a specific result, but that only really applies when you're doing something like 6 flips or less. If you just throw it in the air the way Harvey does, it flips a lot more, so the chances of muscle memory playing a role in the outcome of the coin toss aren't very high.
The flip can also be considered random if he doesn't choose which side goes up. Even if the result is a little bit biased, the starting point was its own game of chance. As for the machine, well, who's to say that he tested it beforehand? And maybe Batman's weight, unknown variable, also changes the result.
I think that the coin is random. If you don't look that far into it. Historically his coin flip has been mostly 50/50. If you see the dark knight when Two-Face goes on a killing spree, it swaps from heads to tails 7 times until it finally lands heads twice. In comics, it has historically been 50/50 for the most part, as to if Harvey wants it to be rigged, probably not, but this could be a little thing left by writers. Good catch!
Also the big coin flip can't really be discussed unless you take into account the weight of the coin, weight of batman, and maybe even location. If there's any slight movement in the "flipper" than it could be changed. This wasn't meant to be a rigged system, I think it was actually well thought through.
but if he just designed it without test, he would not know, it was as likely to always smash batman as it was to never smash batman, so it is kinda 50/50
A dice can be way more rigged than a coin. Even if you don't intentionally buy loaded dice, the way most of them are made makes them rigged. The rock tumbler they use to round the corners and edges will make uneven dice. That's why cassinos use dices with hard edges.
To be fair, if you build a giant coin flipping machine, you’d have to test it (or intentionally design it with a particular result in mind) in order to know the result beforehand. If you’re only using it once, there’s a 50/50 chance, if not because of the coin flip then because of the construction of the machine.
I absolutely LOVE the lighting trick at the beginning, where you illuminated one half of your face and kept the other half in darkness. Really subtle, but REALLY effective
First off, love The Long Halloween reference with the "I believe in Harvey Dent" button. Favourite story of mine, hands down! Secondly, this is where I have to scratch my head in terms of what is fair. It's true that a coin toss is 49/51 instead of 50/50, unless Two-Face plays with his rules of not looking at the coin at first, but even then it's not COMPLETELY fair. Heck, there are even some incarnations where instead of using a coin, Two-Face actually rolled a dice to show fairness: either he doesn't act, he acts with kindness, he'll act evilly, etc. However, even then there's a weighted side/direction of the roll that can make the results more rigged than fair. Now if he were to do something more fair (but honestly, far less stylish.), he could use a random number generator app on a phone, as he can set the app to pick a number between 1 to 2, flip a coin or so forth. As a computer doesn't exactly have a weighted side, there isn't really something he can rig in the system to make sure he always acts evilly. I love Two-Face, but he's not always completely fair in his game.
Platy News Keep in mind, Dark Knight was inspired by other great Batman works that came before it, such as Long Halloween, The Man Who Laughs, The Killing Joke and such. While most people remember the movie more, it still originates from another source before it. :)
Random number generators are technical even less random and are far easier to rig. You're talking about an algorithm created by a person to generate a number that seemingly can't be predicted. But it is still math, and math can be manipulated very easily.
I saw some thing a while back where batman replaced his coin with a trick coin that landed on its side it was hilarious seeing 2face flipping out about his coin not flipping properly
IMO tossing is fine, as long as you don't look/choose which side you're going to put up in the first place - that way you can think of it as either side had 50% chance of having a 51% chance, which makes it fair enough.
A coin toss would be fair if the coin was perfectly flat on both sides more like a disk. It would be a perfect 50/50 then you could just print heads and tails on it. But the very small amount of weight the ink would add would then give a very slight bias again.
As long as Two-Face isn't aware that the coin is biased, it is a 50/50. In his mind it's a 50/50, so when he assigns the outcomes for the sides of the coin it's random and unbiased.
Wait a second, a scratched coin isn't necessarily lighter. A knife doesn't magic the materiel away, and we're not talking about a sander or a saw. All the metal should still be there only pushed to two sides and slightly raised up. You would have more success noting the air drag it would cause then the loss in weight.
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So you saying two face's coin toss isn't rigged?, Because if it is what else whould he do:magic ball,roll a dice,rulett,eny meny many mo?
I think the word you were trying to think of is "sycophant." Also, Harvey isn't schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is prolonged and severe paranoia and has nothing to do with multiple personality disorder.
Always love your videos Scott, but gotta mention that two-face's coin flipping machine would be random if he didn't have a team of engineers tweaking it to get a desired result. If you just dumped a pile of weight on one end it would be hard to know what the result would be.
Two Face's coin flipping machine is only guaranteed to land on the desired side if he were able to take batman's weight into account, right? I'm pretty sure that'll affect how the coin lands.
The disfigurement of the coin would make it real easy to know which side you had, which could bias Two-Face in all sorts of conscious and unconscious ways.
when he takes it out of his pocket it still do not mean it's random. the coin is scratched so he would be able to feel that when he put his hand in his pocket
I never let anything come down to a coin toss because I know all to well how easy it is to cheat a coin toss. Instead of just letting the coin land in my hand I would swipe it out of the air and slam it into the back of my other hand. Within the brief moment that it hits my palm I am able to see the coin and flip it before reviling it. I much prefer a dice toss with the even odd out come it is much more random.
The way I see it, a coin toss is as close to perfectly fair as you can get. And for the machine, as long as Harvey didn't test it first, then yes, it was fair because no one could know how the coin would land.
I use the "vigorous flipping" process all the time to start (and end) with heads. Consistency in technique important though, it makes you closer to the machine result. Whenever I find a penny I flip it heads three times in a row before pocketing it and I can get it within the first four ~80% of the time (I often muck up the first toss). He's right though, you have to catch it or else you increase the odds of tails.
I seem to recall in some instances, Two-Face tosses the coin, catches it with one hand then places it on the back of his other hand, turning it over in the process - making whichever side that landed face up when he caught it become face down when he places it on his other hand. Would this cancel out the 51%/49% bias and make the coin toss more fair since, if the coin has a 1% greater tendency to land face up with whichever side started face up when the coin was tossed, it is then reversed?
I agree that coins aren't entirely fair, but if the toss is "random in, random out" then how is there truly any instated bias by the coin flipper or anyone else? And in the case of the giant coin, there is now way to flip it accurately unless batman's weight was accounted for, as well as every single movement he made will on the coin while in motion. I know its a fictional scenario, but there are too many variables for a planned trajectory. Therefore, I would think Two-face is mostly leaving it to chance as long as he doesn't spin the coin.
If Two-Face sees which side of the coin is starting up (which he does most of the time) then it's not random in, random out. As for the giant flipping machine, I have to imagine he ran some tests on the coin first before Batman got there. Doesn't seem like something you'd plan and not test.
Elijah Andrews a coin flip is done by offsetting the central balance of the coin, hitting the end to make the center spin. the way that coin was trowed I doubt it would spin in the air, say it actually did then it would land, more than likely, on the heavier side which Batman was strapped to due to his weight.
Considering the fact that he's not flipping a coin, but flipping a coin with a Batman attached to it - But if the machine were properly calibrated and it was flipping an actual coin, there would be no randomness to the flip.
I don't think you can calibrate the thing two face used to launch the coin because it was incredibly simple just a medal board the coin and the gold witch was dropped bye a forklift with a chain connecting the two.
Dent is easily my favorite Batman villain, simply because he's completely unpredictable. He's insane, terrifying, and has a really great origin (all of them are good, though I personally prefer the explosion version) and his appearance is simply awesome. My coin toss outcome was tails.
There was a pretty cool story in the pages of 'Superman Family' in the series they called "Mr. & Mrs. Superman", detailing the early years of Lois and Clark's marriage on Earth-2. In this one, the Kents attend the wedding of Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle, the now-reformed Catwoman (which would later produce Helena Wayne, aka Huntress). While at the wedding, they meet Harvey Kent, the repaired and reformed Two-Face (In Earth-2's history, he was never re-injured). But then, Clark overhears two mob hitmen out to get someone whose been leading a double-life. Seeing no Green K or lead containers on them, Clark figures out with Lois that he is not the target, however improbable that might be. Instead, they are seeking revenge on Harvey for his activities as Two-Face. Thinking fast, Clark uses his powers to make it seem like the hit worked, till Gordon could arrest the 'torpedoes'. Neat extra : He never once changes into his costume.
@Rob Morris: I don't remember this particular story. I collected Superman Family for a while, but there are some gaps in my collection. I'll have to see if I can find this one.
Actually, from my own experience, catching it isn't really better. I suppose it might be so long as you don't try to game the toss, but if you do try, you can actually get quite good at forcing a result.
The coin flip may not be only about fairness but fear. Fear, for crime bosses, is power. As humans we fear the unknown more than anything. The pantomime and procedure he is famous for instills fear of the unknown. The coin flip maybe be no more than a tool for him to be a better crime boss. This helps to explain his carelessness about what is fair from time to time.
Uhm... you should pay more attention to math and wording. There are some major statistical errors you made (and the paper with the 51 to 49 ratio is heavily debated btw). But to say: "If you use that machine you can predict the chance 100% of the time" would only work if they strapped Batman to the coin and adjusted it by trial and error to land on a specific side... changing the parameters of this setup (by disturbing the coins balance by strapping 100kg of Batman on one side) would change everything.
Twoface could have been rigging the game from the start, I can flip most British coins and achieve the desired result 8/10 times. You flick it and count how long it stays in the air. A bit of trial and error and you become pretty familiar with how many rotations its making in a short space of time.
Wouldn't Batman's weight effect the landing of the coin with the coin-flip-machine-thingy from the animated series, it wouldn't be 50-50 but it would at least nog be 100% right?
Are there examples where Two-Face acted truly "good" when the coin landed unscarred up? It seems that he stacks unfavorable outcomes on both sides to varying degrees... Was wondering if anyone knew of some good stories where he flipped the coin and ended up doing something noble or good because of the flip outcome.
I remember a reference in the DC 1 Million series to Two-Face 2 being redeemed when the then-Batman proved that, coin toss for coin toss, he had made more 'good' decisions than 'bad' ones.
I don't think the giant Penny flipped was rigged. If I were to make a Penny flip machine I wouldn't know off the top of my head exactly how hard I would have to hit the penny to get a certain result the first time. that's something you only learn after you flip the penny thousands of times while accounting for flipping strength as one of many variables. try predicting the outcome without all the data points. it would be like random chance.
this is fantastic! I didn't know about the 51/49 odds. that's awesome. my question for you is what if Twoface rigs the flip when he catches it to be more in his favor. Being a magician I know how to rig a fair coin toss to show whatever side I want. do you think that Twoface would rig a toss on purpose but toss it just to play with his target like batman?
Hey, Nerdsync! Your stuff is awesome! I really like your videos, enjoy your humor and always happy to watch the newest stuff. But i think this video is a bit dark, could you try to get a bit more light? But thats the only thing that bothers me a bit. Keep up your awesome work.
I believe the word you were searching for at 8:11 was "duplicitous". Ha! You thought your question had an obvious answer of "two-faced", but I have flipped the coin sir! Your move, Scott. In all seriousness though, great video.
Reminds me of Rincewind in the Discworld series - at one point he is playing a game where he has to bet on whether a flipped coin would land head or tails up, but he lost all his money betting that it wouldn't land at all.
His entire two choices thing immediately crushes the randomness of a situation. When random data which is countless options is minimized to simply two options, that is the opposite of entropy.
Did anyone else ever notice that in the first appearance of Dent/ Two Face it is the right side that is hit with acid, but a few panels later, it is the left side that is burned/scarred?
Imagine being Harvey, then travel to all these alternate dimensions to find that the one point of convergence in your life’s story is your freaking face scar.
In childhood I used to toss coins a lot, and I can promise that is EASY to rig a toss. It was even easy, for me, to predict what side to chose when someone else tossed it for me.
The Giant Penny death trap could be random, if Twoface never tested the trap. Yes, it would be the same every time if he were to repeat the trap over and over with the same penny, but if he never tested it, how would he know which side his particular trap favors. Also, the fact that he has Batman is tied to the coin makes it almost impossible for Twoface to rig the flip because 1) He would have to accurately guess Batman's weight perfectly in order to make sure his flip landed how he wanted, and 2) He would need to predict Batman's struggles against the ropes as well, since they would affect how the coin lands as well.
Between all the variables that go into beginning the flip (which side is facing up, how the coin is flipped, with what force is it flipped) to how the coin lands (does it bounce and how high, does it flip if bouncing, does it spin or roll in any way, is it caught, is it caught and then flipped) - all combined with environmental factors like wind or movement of a vehicle - the chances that Two-Face and his victim have ANY discernible control over the true outcome is effectively zero. But, disregarding the actual "fairness" of a coin toss, you have to consider ways Two-Face would continue to rig the game in his favor. For example: flipping a coin to shoot someone, and if he doesn't get the result he wants, he'll just flip that coin and shoot the driver instead. He himself adheres to the letter of the law: one flip per decision that needs to be made, up to and including dozens of decisions or threats until he gets something that satisfies his evil desires. His victims would much prefer the spirit of the law: one singular flip that determines the final outcome of events.
I think proclaiming the scratched side of the coin to be lighter is wrong. You can scratch an object by scraping it (and therefor taking material away and making it actually lighter) or by "indenting" it to leave the marks which would leave the weight of the side just as it was before but merely changing the effect of the weight since it's distance from the center of rotation got moved towards it.
theory what if Harvey knows and sometimes puts it purposely on one side which means in the hospital scene in dark knight he purposely puts it on the scared side so he can more likely kill joker
At the end of the Batman:Arkham Asylum comic the inmates left the decision whether or not to let Batman leave Arkham to Harvey. He tossed the coin ( but didn't show it ) and told them to free Batman. Later it was revealed that the coin landed scratched up, meaning Harvey made the decision himself to let Batman go, even if earlier in the comic he was shown to be unable to do anything without his coin. So I guess he isn't as hopeless as it seems, and who knows? Maybe some of his choices aren't 'random' and we don't even know that? Or maybe he's so crazy that sometimes he sees the coin on the side he wished it landed and genuinely believes he's fair. It's hard to tell with him.
I've read this once (thought I don't know the source): When conflicted with two choices, flip a coin. Because once the coin is up in the air, only then do you subconsciously realize what you really want. What if Harvey Dent sees not the actual result of the coin, but what he subconsciously wants. That makes him do things "blamelessly" by giving in to his dark urges while saying that it's the result of chance.
but scott, you forgot that, since two-face doesn't know about the 51/49 percent split depending on what side the coin starts with, he isn't biased towards which side is facing up at the beginning of said coin toss, making it a 50/50 chance which side is up when he pulls the coin out of his pocket, hence negating that 1% difference
I'm curious if there is a weight factor that determines one side over another. Truly each side of a standard coin (if molded differently on each side) would require a different amount of material. Or even if the sides were the same amount, the distribution could be different (more of a material towards the center or to one direction on a coin's side). Even in the Batman Animated coin toss, the weight is highly rigged because Batman is on one side of the coin. As he is flipped into the air, Batman's weight will alter the speed and revolutions of the coin before it lands on the ground. While I can't determine if the heavier side means the coin will land on that side, it DOES mean the coin will not have a fair amount of chance to spin both sides before turning up on one side.
so I noticed that in some of the panels of two-face's original origin that Harvey is referred to as Kent, not Dent, at first I thought that it was just a typo that was so common in comics back then, but then I looked it up and found out that Harvey's original last name in his first couple of appearances was indeed Kent and that DC soon changed it to avoid confusion about whether or not harvey was related to Clark Kent.
i actually learned the whole "probability of coin flipping from the Official Batman Handbook" much of the info on coin tosses that you touched upo is mentioned. such as being more likely to land on the side facing up or that a coin spin will almost always land tails up. you might want to check it out Scott. you could pick it up for $5 or read the pdf version for free! it touches upon a lot such as batmans strategy, how to disarm a gunman the secret of poison ivys kiss and the contents of the utility belt!
In the movie where he tossed the coin 3 times, he wasn't trying to get the result he wants, he was deciding what happens to the three people in the room.
10:47 When you said: "Does Batman have a giant..." I was staring at the arrow, which just looks very phallic in nature, my mind immediately jump to something else.
The skewed bias of the coin toss is a perfect mirror though, for Harvey's working within the justice and political system. As Harvey, he placed his faith in a system that was 'supposed' to be fair and unbias...but wasn't. As two-face he places his faith in the flip of a coin - a system that's 'supposed to be' random and fair...but isn't.
K. Medeiros egh. Not really. The "system" doesn't work because humans are corrupt prices of shit, the coin toss doesn't work because of science. Mirrors(in literature) only work when it is because of the same reason.
Well put sir.
@@dmoneyswagg64 You're not supposed to take it that literally.
Two face: get out of my face clown
Joker: which one
(carlosco89)Batman left the chat
Both
Loved that scene
I swear this comment is on every two face video
I know that scene from the cartoon
I think what's more important is that Harvey thinks it's 50/50 and fair.
I think it’s 50.3%
but it isnt and it doesnt matter what he thinks
This video is 11 minutes long, which is HALF of 22. I think Harvey would be proud!
Lol
NerdSync say hi to Portugal
Hey! Found another Portuguese. Sup.
Afonso Lucas tão tudo bem Portugal caralho!!!!
He would be proud. Also, Death the Kid would be proud; 11 is symmetrical
I think the word you're looking for is "politician"
haha your comment actually made me laugh! props to you
you smot you vewy smot
I thought it was trump
Well played. Haha
that would be absolving clinton of all her lies. They're both so full of it, they could be harnessed to fertilize all the fields in the mid west
The coin is unbiased, Two Face is not. Two Face is a gambler, and like any good gambler Two Face is well aware of some tricks to push the luck in his favor, like, let say, spinning the coin knowing that there is a bigger chance that the face that will punish the other player because is the lightest, or putting extra weight in one side of the coin raising up the posibilities for the heavier side to go down.
The fact that he is driven mad by the idea of needing to uphold fairness makes me doubt that he purposefully stacks the deck. He seems to genuinely want random chance to determine everything. There was even a comic where he couldn't go to the bathroom unless chance called for it. That behavior doesn't seem like that of someone who is intentionally cheating.
So how long till they make a batman comic where twoface is found dead after shitting himself, being unable to use the bathroom?
***** Are you speaking of the Arkham Asylum comic by Grant Morrison? If you do, you may wanna look at the last pages of it.
I just did. Not sure what you're referring to.
+NerdSync The rules were set:
thehouseofwhispers.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dent5.jpg
Does Batman Die at the end of the comic? Because the coin said he should have
mendthiscrack.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/arkham3.jpg
At the end of the comic Dent disregard the judgment of the coin, he cheated, as I state, he is not a judge, he is a gambler.
If Harvey believes the coin is fair, then it's fair, at least according to how he views the world. It's only when he sees that the coin is unfair that he can break from the Two-Face persona and make a decision as Harvey.
Well in Arkham Asylum a Serious house on a Serious earth he was given a 8 sided dice and it only worsened his condition.
@@iceomistar4302 is that a show (which episode) or a comic?
@@XenoflareBahamut comic. Specifically a comic that takes various villains and tries to imagine a more realistic takes on their psychoses
Wanted to clarify about the *coin tossing machine* from the animated series. Even though it would only be smart to test it before Batman got there, let's assume Two-
Face didn't. Is the outcome still random? No. It does not matter if Harvey knows which side it's going to land on. Heck, he probably thinks this whole machine is 50/50, but it's not. The real-life coin tossing rigs only needed "careful adjustment" to start heads up and lands heads up specifically. Two-Face's rig does not need those adjustments. It can just be let loose. It doesn't matter which side it lands on. The point is that it will likely land the same way each time regardless.
Are there other variables to consider? Sure. Batman could wiggle and such. But if he's strapped down tight without the ability to create enough momentum to change the direction of the enormously heavy coin in the air, then likely it won't matter. We get a dozen Batmen on a dozen coins, and the machine will very likely toss them all the same way. Even if it's not 100% the same, it's far from 50/50, and that's all we need to say it's not Two-Face's ideal "fairness".
NerdSync I also think it's important to note that just because Two-Face doesn't know which side the giant penny will land on, don't mean that it's random or fair if every penny flipped that way would land on the same side.
I still think this is random. Just because the outcome is already pre-determined in a way due to how it was machine configured doesn't change the fact that the outcome was 50/50 at the exact time the machine WAS configured.
As long as he hasn't tested the machine and doesn't know what the outcome is it's still up to chance.
+Psytrese This is how I feel. It's still free from perception bias, like taking a coin out of his pocket and flipping before looking at it. It's still done in fairness, even if it is scientifically rigged.
The problem is Two-Face is a lawyer, not a mathematician, he's just an insane person who doesn't know what he's talking about. It's also possible that his writers, being yaknow WRITERS, aren't good at math either.
What about when coins land on an edge? This happen to Two-Face in some animated adventure I believe. Bats was let go because of it.
Heads, the coin is enough, tails, it's not.
Tails.
Sorry Harvey, you're gonna have to invest in a quantum computer
Did you ever read the Arkham Asylum comic? The staff tried to move Harvey to objects with more and more possibilities, to help him get over seeing everything in black and white. They went from the coin, to a die, to a deck of tarot cards. That gives him 72 options. The downside though, was that at that point, he couldn't even make a decision like going to the bathroom or not.
I would still flip a coin. 50/50
You need like 50 coins and fifty more
Yeah but then you have to divide to get 1 1=1$
+Alucard BloodyVampire Then my computer will analyze it with science
What if you held the coin vertically and threw it in the air? There's no bias based on the side facing up, but I wonder if the hand you're holding it in and which side is held by the fingers or thumb would make a difference.
If one side is all scratched, he could flip it without looking and still know the orientation
I like BTAS origins for two, Harvey already having schizophrenia and stress and trauma pushing him over the edge. Not to mention Batman causing him to be permanently scared.
Technically, he had Multiple Personality/Disassociative Identity Disorder, which is vastly different.
Kind of like what they ended up doing in the telltale series?
I don't think Harvey is actually concerned with fairness. He likes to profess fairness as some sort of justification for his crimes, but ultimately he does his best to set up scenarios where his coin toss lets him win whatever the outcome.
When he's badly written
One other factor is, with a hand flipped toss, if Two-Face ever wants to cheat, he can cheat. Easily.
The reason is because when you flip a coin and catch it, do you open your hand to show the result on your palm, or do you flip your hand down onto the back of the other and display the result? Two-Face has likely done both in the past, and if he's playing fair, it doesn't matter which you do, but if he wants to cheat, the "scarred" side would have a clear sharp texture to it, if he catches it, he should know the result through touch alone, so if he wants the scarred side, and feels the scars in his hand, he can just flip it onto his other hand. If he feels the smooth side, he just opens his palm. Nobody's going to call him on it.
dent should just ask batman for a device to give him absolute 50/50 chance with the click of a button
Batman could just rig it so that no one ever dies. But Two-Face would probably catch on after a while.
Or Two-Face can download a coin flipping app. Batman doesn't need to make a special device.
xenontesla122 exactly
Nova1080 good point, but since most of the things in Gotham, they have the Wayne stamp, so I figured since Batman is such a cool guy, he could develop something for Dent to use, and just like xenontesla122 said, it could be rigged, so that it worked just how batman wanted it to.
And then analyze it....with SCIENCE 👁👁
I'd say the coin flip is random enough, at least for Harvey, seeing as how he probably doesn't know all the sciences and whatnot being the probabilities.
Ignorance keeps things a bit more fair in his eyes.
+Niop Tres It's possible to rig a coin toss by learning how to flip a coin to get a specific result, but that only really applies when you're doing something like 6 flips or less. If you just throw it in the air the way Harvey does, it flips a lot more, so the chances of muscle memory playing a role in the outcome of the coin toss aren't very high.
The flip can also be considered random if he doesn't choose which side goes up. Even if the result is a little bit biased, the starting point was its own game of chance. As for the machine, well, who's to say that he tested it beforehand? And maybe Batman's weight, unknown variable, also changes the result.
lets say, with shark repelent the weight will kill him, without shark repelent he will survive
I think that the coin is random. If you don't look that far into it. Historically his coin flip has been mostly 50/50. If you see the dark knight when Two-Face goes on a killing spree, it swaps from
heads to tails 7 times until it finally lands heads twice. In comics, it has historically been 50/50 for the most part, as to if Harvey wants it to be rigged, probably not, but this could be a little thing left by writers. Good catch!
Also the big coin flip can't really be discussed unless you take into account the weight of the coin, weight of batman, and maybe even location. If there's any slight movement in the "flipper" than it could be changed. This wasn't meant to be a rigged system, I think it was actually well thought through.
Batman weighs at most 220 pounds
The coin would weigh tons
but if he just designed it without test, he would not know, it was as likely to always smash batman as it was to never smash batman, so it is kinda 50/50
It's fair enough. It's not like he could roll a dice. Remember the Robot Chicken episode that had Two Face get more faces? Can't do that, now can he?
Odds or evens, most tabletop gamers will ALWAYS use a dice for 50/50 decisions.
Actually, that happens in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth.
A dice can be way more rigged than a coin. Even if you don't intentionally buy loaded dice, the way most of them are made makes them rigged. The rock tumbler they use to round the corners and edges will make uneven dice. That's why cassinos use dices with hard edges.
Instead of flipping a coin, he should attempt a bottle flip. if he fails, he does something evil. if he succeeds, he doesn't.
But it's more likely to fail than suceed
Ryan Mella shhh
Ryan Mella exactly,
Every time he lands the bottle he should sing Ultimate
I think it's still biased
To be fair, if you build a giant coin flipping machine, you’d have to test it (or intentionally design it with a particular result in mind) in order to know the result beforehand. If you’re only using it once, there’s a 50/50 chance, if not because of the coin flip then because of the construction of the machine.
Harvey might know about the bias of the coin spin, and did a coin toss to ask himself if he should use a coin spin in some situations.
I absolutely LOVE the lighting trick at the beginning, where you illuminated one half of your face and kept the other half in darkness. Really subtle, but REALLY effective
First off, love The Long Halloween reference with the "I believe in Harvey Dent" button. Favourite story of mine, hands down!
Secondly, this is where I have to scratch my head in terms of what is fair. It's true that a coin toss is 49/51 instead of 50/50, unless Two-Face plays with his rules of not looking at the coin at first, but even then it's not COMPLETELY fair. Heck, there are even some incarnations where instead of using a coin, Two-Face actually rolled a dice to show fairness: either he doesn't act, he acts with kindness, he'll act evilly, etc. However, even then there's a weighted side/direction of the roll that can make the results more rigged than fair.
Now if he were to do something more fair (but honestly, far less stylish.), he could use a random number generator app on a phone, as he can set the app to pick a number between 1 to 2, flip a coin or so forth. As a computer doesn't exactly have a weighted side, there isn't really something he can rig in the system to make sure he always acts evilly.
I love Two-Face, but he's not always completely fair in his game.
Oh, and I flipped a coin heads-facing upwards. Got heads.
Maybe he should throw a dice then? Odd numbers equals evil, and even numbers equals good?
Is it really a Long Halloween reference when Dark Knight made it more famous ?
Platy News
Keep in mind, Dark Knight was inspired by other great Batman works that came before it, such as Long Halloween, The Man Who Laughs, The Killing Joke and such.
While most people remember the movie more, it still originates from another source before it. :)
Random number generators are technical even less random and are far easier to rig. You're talking about an algorithm created by a person to generate a number that seemingly can't be predicted. But it is still math, and math can be manipulated very easily.
I saw some thing a while back where batman replaced his coin with a trick coin that landed on its side it was hilarious seeing 2face flipping out about his coin not flipping properly
Heads. You keep a subscription
Wow, this is something I never really given a lot of thought to. Nice video!
IMO tossing is fine, as long as you don't look/choose which side you're going to put up in the first place - that way you can think of it as either side had 50% chance of having a 51% chance, which makes it fair enough.
Annnd, I did the math, when put that way, the odds of each side are given by the formula 0,51*0,50+ 0,49*0,5, which equals..... 50%, exactly.
Yeah, the paper talks about this in their section about Random In, Random Out.
A coin toss would be fair if the coin was perfectly flat on both sides more like a disk. It would be a perfect 50/50 then you could just print heads and tails on it. But the very small amount of weight the ink would add would then give a very slight bias again.
As long as Two-Face isn't aware that the coin is biased, it is a 50/50.
In his mind it's a 50/50, so when he assigns the outcomes for the sides of the coin it's random and unbiased.
The scratched side would weigh less making the normal side more likely to be at the bottom and therefore more likely to lose
O wale I hadn't watched to that part yet xd
+Bob Smith *wow
Coin *FLIP*. You know... rotations and everything... tossed by hand... and that those things that i mentioned are considered to randomize a flipping.
Tails....
😩. 😞🔫. ☠🔫
These Videos are the reason why I lov watching you talk about Comics. It gives us a inside look about the Ideas behind our favorite books
Wait a second, a scratched coin isn't necessarily lighter. A knife doesn't magic the materiel away, and we're not talking about a sander or a saw. All the metal should still be there only pushed to two sides and slightly raised up. You would have more success noting the air drag it would cause then the loss in weight.
So you saying two face's coin toss isn't rigged?, Because if it is what else whould he do:magic ball,roll a dice,rulett,eny meny many mo?
I think the word you were trying to think of is "sycophant." Also, Harvey isn't schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is prolonged and severe paranoia and has nothing to do with multiple personality disorder.
8:20 ha "Two-Faced", good one
Always love your videos Scott, but gotta mention that two-face's coin flipping machine would be random if he didn't have a team of engineers tweaking it to get a desired result. If you just dumped a pile of weight on one end it would be hard to know what the result would be.
Two Face's coin flipping machine is only guaranteed to land on the desired side if he were able to take batman's weight into account, right? I'm pretty sure that'll affect how the coin lands.
The disfigurement of the coin would make it real easy to know which side you had, which could bias Two-Face in all sorts of conscious and unconscious ways.
when he takes it out of his pocket it still do not mean it's random. the coin is scratched so he would be able to feel that when he put his hand in his pocket
I never let anything come down to a coin toss because I know all to well how easy it is to cheat a coin toss. Instead of just letting the coin land in my hand I would swipe it out of the air and slam it into the back of my other hand. Within the brief moment that it hits my palm I am able to see the coin and flip it before reviling it. I much prefer a dice toss with the even odd out come it is much more random.
Flipped a coin.
Landed on it's side.
FML.
They did that in the cartoon. Batman slipped him a trick coin, which threw him off.
The way I see it, a coin toss is as close to perfectly fair as you can get. And for the machine, as long as Harvey didn't test it first, then yes, it was fair because no one could know how the coin would land.
What if u had sum sort of device that shot the coin up from the position where vertically its longer?
I use the "vigorous flipping" process all the time to start (and end) with heads. Consistency in technique important though, it makes you closer to the machine result. Whenever I find a penny I flip it heads three times in a row before pocketing it and I can get it within the first four ~80% of the time (I often muck up the first toss). He's right though, you have to catch it or else you increase the odds of tails.
Are there any bloopers of the 'how about a coin toss' part, and if so, can we see a compilation?
Zarbi Xii lol ya
Zarbi Xii check aurams (the editors) twitter, he accasionally posts stuff like that.
But isn't consistent inconsistency part of the Harvey's character as well so it does fit the character well
Heads.
Specifically the head of King Carl XVI Gustaf.
Nice!
what O.o,,, is this reference to something ???
No, it's just the king of Sweden, so he's on some of our coins.
Ohh, I get it :)
NerdSync hallo!
I seem to recall in some instances, Two-Face tosses the coin, catches it with one hand then places it on the back of his other hand, turning it over in the process - making whichever side that landed face up when he caught it become face down when he places it on his other hand.
Would this cancel out the 51%/49% bias and make the coin toss more fair since, if the coin has a 1% greater tendency to land face up with whichever side started face up when the coin was tossed, it is then reversed?
I agree that coins aren't entirely fair, but if the toss is "random in, random out" then how is there truly any instated bias by the coin flipper or anyone else? And in the case of the giant coin, there is now way to flip it accurately unless batman's weight was accounted for, as well as every single movement he made will on the coin while in motion. I know its a fictional scenario, but there are too many variables for a planned trajectory. Therefore, I would think Two-face is mostly leaving it to chance as long as he doesn't spin the coin.
If Two-Face sees which side of the coin is starting up (which he does most of the time) then it's not random in, random out. As for the giant flipping machine, I have to imagine he ran some tests on the coin first before Batman got there. Doesn't seem like something you'd plan and not test.
Elijah Andrews a coin flip is done by offsetting the central balance of the coin, hitting the end to make the center spin. the way that coin was trowed I doubt it would spin in the air, say it actually did then it would land, more than likely, on the heavier side which Batman was strapped to due to his weight.
Elijah Andrews but nerdsync if he truly believes he is unbiased then he would naver have done any tests to cheat
Tossed a quarter without looking at which side was facing up.
Caught it in my hand.
Heads.
About the coin tossing machine thing Harvey did not build it knowing which side the coin would land on therefor isn't it random?
Considering the fact that he's not flipping a coin, but flipping a coin with a Batman attached to it -
But if the machine were properly calibrated and it was flipping an actual coin, there would be no randomness to the flip.
I don't think you can calibrate the thing two face used to launch the coin because it was incredibly simple just a medal board the coin and the gold witch was dropped bye a forklift with a chain connecting the two.
Dent is easily my favorite Batman villain, simply because he's completely unpredictable. He's insane, terrifying, and has a really great origin (all of them are good, though I personally prefer the explosion version) and his appearance is simply awesome.
My coin toss outcome was tails.
Did anyone else notice that Harvey Dent was referred to as "Kent" in his first appearance? Was that just a typo, or...?
no, it was supposed to be his name, but then Superman became part of the same world as Batman and his name was changed to avoid a mix-up. happy now?
696190 Yep. I never knew that before. Thanks!
There was a pretty cool story in the pages of 'Superman Family' in the series they called "Mr. & Mrs. Superman", detailing the early years of Lois and Clark's marriage on Earth-2. In this one, the Kents attend the wedding of Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle, the now-reformed Catwoman (which would later produce Helena Wayne, aka Huntress). While at the wedding, they meet Harvey Kent, the repaired and reformed Two-Face (In Earth-2's history, he was never re-injured). But then, Clark overhears two mob hitmen out to get someone whose been leading a double-life. Seeing no Green K or lead containers on them, Clark figures out with Lois that he is not the target, however improbable that might be. Instead, they are seeking revenge on Harvey for his activities as Two-Face. Thinking fast, Clark uses his powers to make it seem like the hit worked, till Gordon could arrest the 'torpedoes'. Neat extra : He never once changes into his costume.
Rob Morris Wow. The more you know... Thanks though!
@Rob Morris: I don't remember this particular story. I collected Superman Family for a while, but there are some gaps in my collection. I'll have to see if I can find this one.
Actually, from my own experience, catching it isn't really better. I suppose it might be so long as you don't try to game the toss, but if you do try, you can actually get quite good at forcing a result.
The Vsauce vid on randomness can explain true randomness look up
Vsauce random
The coin flip may not be only about fairness but fear. Fear, for crime bosses, is power. As humans we fear the unknown more than anything. The pantomime and procedure he is famous for instills fear of the unknown. The coin flip maybe be no more than a tool for him to be a better crime boss. This helps to explain his carelessness about what is fair from time to time.
Uhm... you should pay more attention to math and wording. There are some major statistical errors you made (and the paper with the 51 to 49 ratio is heavily debated btw).
But to say: "If you use that machine you can predict the chance 100% of the time" would only work if they strapped Batman to the coin and adjusted it by trial and error to land on a specific side... changing the parameters of this setup (by disturbing the coins balance by strapping 100kg of Batman on one side) would change everything.
100kg of Batman lol
My coin is currently still flipping in the air right now. What the hell?
Twoface could have been rigging the game from the start, I can flip most British coins and achieve the desired result 8/10 times. You flick it and count how long it stays in the air. A bit of trial and error and you become pretty familiar with how many rotations its making in a short space of time.
Wouldn't Batman's weight effect the landing of the coin with the coin-flip-machine-thingy from the animated series, it wouldn't be 50-50 but it would at least nog be 100% right?
Wow Scott, your videos just keep getting better and better!
Are there examples where Two-Face acted truly "good" when the coin landed unscarred up? It seems that he stacks unfavorable outcomes on both sides to varying degrees... Was wondering if anyone knew of some good stories where he flipped the coin and ended up doing something noble or good because of the flip outcome.
Regardless of what is canon, the Two-faced origin story from BAS is the best!
Can I get booyaaaah!
Thanks a lot. I flipped a coin and it got lost...
I remember a reference in the DC 1 Million series to Two-Face 2 being redeemed when the then-Batman proved that, coin toss for coin toss, he had made more 'good' decisions than 'bad' ones.
I don't think the giant Penny flipped was rigged. If I were to make a Penny flip machine I wouldn't know off the top of my head exactly how hard I would have to hit the penny to get a certain result the first time. that's something you only learn after you flip the penny thousands of times while accounting for flipping strength as one of many variables. try predicting the outcome without all the data points. it would be like random chance.
wait...Harvey is obsessed with the Number 2?
this is fantastic! I didn't know about the 51/49 odds. that's awesome.
my question for you is what if Twoface rigs the flip when he catches it to be more in his favor. Being a magician I know how to rig a fair coin toss to show whatever side I want. do you think that Twoface would rig a toss on purpose but toss it just to play with his target like batman?
Hey, Nerdsync! Your stuff is awesome! I really like your videos, enjoy your humor and always happy to watch the newest stuff. But i think this video is a bit dark, could you try to get a bit more light? But thats the only thing that bothers me a bit. Keep up your awesome work.
I believe the word you were searching for at 8:11 was "duplicitous".
Ha! You thought your question had an obvious answer of "two-faced", but I have flipped the coin sir! Your move, Scott.
In all seriousness though, great video.
*two face proceeds in bringing Schrodinger‘s cat in a box* “now it’s TRULY 50/50”
Reminds me of Rincewind in the Discworld series - at one point he is playing a game where he has to bet on whether a flipped coin would land head or tails up, but he lost all his money betting that it wouldn't land at all.
His entire two choices thing immediately crushes the randomness of a situation. When random data which is countless options is minimized to simply two options, that is the opposite of entropy.
0:34 I BELIEVE IN HARVEY DENT
I mean a coin flip is cooler than two face carrying around a phone and pushing a button for a 50/50 chance
Two face needs to carry around a phone with google so he can search flip a coin it's still more random then real life
I always wondered if he could rig it simply cuz he's so good at coin flipping.
Did anyone else ever notice that in the first appearance of Dent/ Two Face it is the right side that is hit with acid, but a few panels later, it is the left side that is burned/scarred?
Imagine being Harvey, then travel to all these alternate dimensions to find that the one point of convergence in your life’s story is your freaking face scar.
In childhood I used to toss coins a lot, and I can promise that is EASY to rig a toss. It was even easy, for me, to predict what side to chose when someone else tossed it for me.
Yeeeeees! This is EXACTLY what a good NerdSync episode is.
The Giant Penny death trap could be random, if Twoface never tested the trap. Yes, it would be the same every time if he were to repeat the trap over and over with the same penny, but if he never tested it, how would he know which side his particular trap favors. Also, the fact that he has Batman is tied to the coin makes it almost impossible for Twoface to rig the flip because 1) He would have to accurately guess Batman's weight perfectly in order to make sure his flip landed how he wanted, and 2) He would need to predict Batman's struggles against the ropes as well, since they would affect how the coin lands as well.
Between all the variables that go into beginning the flip (which side is facing up, how the coin is flipped, with what force is it flipped) to how the coin lands (does it bounce and how high, does it flip if bouncing, does it spin or roll in any way, is it caught, is it caught and then flipped) - all combined with environmental factors like wind or movement of a vehicle - the chances that Two-Face and his victim have ANY discernible control over the true outcome is effectively zero.
But, disregarding the actual "fairness" of a coin toss, you have to consider ways Two-Face would continue to rig the game in his favor. For example: flipping a coin to shoot someone, and if he doesn't get the result he wants, he'll just flip that coin and shoot the driver instead. He himself adheres to the letter of the law: one flip per decision that needs to be made, up to and including dozens of decisions or threats until he gets something that satisfies his evil desires. His victims would much prefer the spirit of the law: one singular flip that determines the final outcome of events.
I think proclaiming the scratched side of the coin to be lighter is wrong. You can scratch an object by scraping it (and therefor taking material away and making it actually lighter) or by "indenting" it to leave the marks which would leave the weight of the side just as it was before but merely changing the effect of the weight since it's distance from the center of rotation got moved towards it.
Great video I really enjoyed it and it got me thinking about something that I used to never give a second thought about
The lighting in the begining was clever as hell making you look like you had two faces, good job bob
When I learned about the whole 51/49 deal with coin tosses I started flipping coins multiple times before looking at them
theory what if Harvey knows and sometimes puts it purposely on one side which means in the hospital scene in dark knight he purposely puts it on the scared side so he can more likely kill joker
At the end of the Batman:Arkham Asylum comic the inmates left the decision whether or not to let Batman leave Arkham to Harvey. He tossed the coin ( but didn't show it ) and told them to free Batman. Later it was revealed that the coin landed scratched up, meaning Harvey made the decision himself to let Batman go, even if earlier in the comic he was shown to be unable to do anything without his coin. So I guess he isn't as hopeless as it seems, and who knows? Maybe some of his choices aren't 'random' and we don't even know that? Or maybe he's so crazy that sometimes he sees the coin on the side he wished it landed and genuinely believes he's fair. It's hard to tell with him.
Great video! nerdsync is the best comic channel on youtube!
I've read this once (thought I don't know the source):
When conflicted with two choices, flip a coin. Because once the coin is up in the air, only then do you subconsciously realize what you really want.
What if Harvey Dent sees not the actual result of the coin, but what he subconsciously wants. That makes him do things "blamelessly" by giving in to his dark urges while saying that it's the result of chance.
but scott, you forgot that, since two-face doesn't know about the 51/49 percent split depending on what side the coin starts with, he isn't biased towards which side is facing up at the beginning of said coin toss, making it a 50/50 chance which side is up when he pulls the coin out of his pocket, hence negating that 1% difference
I'm curious if there is a weight factor that determines one side over another. Truly each side of a standard coin (if molded differently on each side) would require a different amount of material. Or even if the sides were the same amount, the distribution could be different (more of a material towards the center or to one direction on a coin's side). Even in the Batman Animated coin toss, the weight is highly rigged because Batman is on one side of the coin. As he is flipped into the air, Batman's weight will alter the speed and revolutions of the coin before it lands on the ground. While I can't determine if the heavier side means the coin will land on that side, it DOES mean the coin will not have a fair amount of chance to spin both sides before turning up on one side.
i flipped with out looking at it and got Heads. Then flipped it 3 times looking each time. "Heads to Tails" twice then "Head to Head"
so I noticed that in some of the panels of two-face's original origin that Harvey is referred to as Kent, not Dent, at first I thought that it was just a typo that was so common in comics back then, but then I looked it up and found out that Harvey's original last name in his first couple of appearances was indeed Kent and that DC soon changed it to avoid confusion about whether or not harvey was related to Clark Kent.
i actually learned the whole "probability of coin flipping from the Official Batman Handbook" much of the info on coin tosses that you touched upo is mentioned. such as being more likely to land on the side facing up or that a coin spin will almost always land tails up. you might want to check it out Scott. you could pick it up for $5 or read the pdf version for free! it touches upon a lot such as batmans strategy, how to disarm a gunman the secret of poison ivys kiss and the contents of the utility belt!
Alec Windsor which book?
Alec Windsor source?
In the movie where he tossed the coin 3 times, he wasn't trying to get the result he wants, he was deciding what happens to the three people in the room.
10:47 When you said: "Does Batman have a giant..." I was staring at the arrow, which just looks very phallic in nature, my mind immediately jump to something else.