Even though you see a lot of advice and see a lot of builders putting plastic vapor barrier over the fiberglass (or whatever) insulation, the "new knowledge" is to avoid both fiberglass and plastic below grade in colder climates. I caulked around the rim, plate, and joists, put in 2" of XPS, then a layer of rockwool. After 3 years, there is no mold or moisture or even smell ... plus it made a huge difference in the floor above and the heating bill too. I used to melt snow 18" all around the house, and now the snow stays there until the sun can melt it.
@billsmith8339 Did you use foam or more caulking (or other) around the XPS to seal it? I don't know what to believe but I read too much about toxic foam off gassing or I'd spray the whole cavity. Also, is there anything over the rockwool, or is that the final layer? Thanks.
Yeah, absolutely NO plastic barrier here! It causes so many issues. The walls need to breath. We haven't been allowed to do this on an inspected basement for quite some time. Rock wool is a great choice. Fiberglass is a mistake in a basement wall
I'm currently sealing the band joist on my house in a temperate region. I used caulk to air seal the bay not spray foam. My basement is finished but luckily has a drop ceiling I can move out of the way. I am using two layers of 3.5 inch Rockwool. The first is a height of 9 inches and the second is 10.5 to fit down on top of the finished wall. Using the Rockwool and caulk is giving me great air sealing, thermal break and a fire stop above the finished wall so overall I am very happy. I have done a similar process on two basements in the past but used foam board. Installing mineral wool goes faster since you just cut it and press it in place where as with foam board you have to spray foam around it after. In addition, if I need a termite inspection or treatment in the future I the mineral wool can be temporarily removed then put back. A word of caution. Use protection when working with mineral wool. Cover your skin, cover your eyes and use a mask.
I like the RockWool. I've noticed a dramatic improvement in the last 6 months or so with the basement complete. I find that their is more irritation when working with Pink Fiberglass insulation than RockWool. When just cutting with a knife I didn't do much as far as PPE other than gloves. There were times that I was ripping it to put it behind tighter areas and then I wore a P100 mask. I found the cleanly cut RockWool made virtually no particulate, but ripping it by hand did cause some minor dust.
I have a balloon frame home 1890s construction, meaning there are no sills between the 1st and 2nd floors, so when insulated I measured between the studs and cut some 2x4s put them in with an angle drill. I also insulated between the rim joists in the basement. I covered the wall with 6 mil plastic and put in new drywall
Very comprehensive method and video. I think when others use the "flash and batt" designation, they mean a full layer of closed cell spray foam, as much as 2" to form a vapor barrier to minimize condensation at the exterior sheathing (or rim joist) and create a higher R-value. A vapor barrier on the interior, of course is according to your environment. Not everyone will want that.
I believe that interior vapor barrier is recommended by the IRC for Climate Zone 5 and everything to the North of Climate Zone 5. That would be all of Canada and about 1/3 to 1/2 of the US. Zones 1, 2, and 3 should not have an interior vapor barrier. Zone 4 is mixed.
So much easier and more effective to start with 2" closed cell foam and then adding mineral wool. Thermal bridging will impact the mineral wool more than foam.
@@BobPritchard I'm not sure it would be easier or more cost efficient. Thermal bridging through the floor joists will be the same. A continuous vapour barrier on the inside of the house is required here so adding foam would just be another step added to this process.
@@DIYNorth I respectfully disagree. The foam against the rim joist would provide a vapor barrier and lessen thermal bridging more than mineral wool. I use mineral wool extensively towards the conditioned space. With just mineral wool and a plastic vapor barrier towards the conditioned space I'd be concerned about the moisture getting into that closed area and the dew point below which the moisture will condense causing all sorts of problems with the wood assembly. After a year or so you can inspect the plastic barrier for signs of moisture. Good luck regardless.
I’d have absolutely foregone that plastic + acoustic sealant step for a piece of 2” formular foam board for sure. What a mess! Lol. The “pink stuff”, goodstuff window & door sprayed around the 1/4” gap, plus one piece of rockwool after that would have been perfect.
lol...Its the stickiest product ever. Once the edges got trimmed up and taped it looks pretty clean. Its also very time consuming. It does create a good seal though.
You must live in a totally dry climate. If not, I see great places for mold growth and/or wood rot between and behind and above the pieces you added, even possible water damage from outside all that you'd never know was there until it's too late.
I'm not sure if my climate is dry or not, but this video is almost 4 years old and there is absolutely no indication of moisture behind the plastic, nor has there ever been. I'd say the building code supports this method for a reason.
2 inches of foam board,sealed with spray foam around the edges and where the sill plate meets the concrete. Then the insulation of your choice is all you need.Forget the plastic and acoustic sealer
@@DIYNorth The cold air and moisture mostly comes from under the sill plate because that's where I found the biggest gap.You are not addressing that.The previous owner used plastic and I found mold on every piece of insulation.The house is a lot warmer now
Spray foam gaps follow with 2" foam board for your vapor barrier on rim joist and sill plate. Then add mineral wool for added R value. No need for messy caulk or plastic to trap moisture.
how are you achieving a continuous vapor barrier on the inner side of your basement with your proposed method? Not all climates have the same recommendation and what you indicated sounds like it would be applicable in a warm climate. I don't live in a warm climate.
@@percyfaith11 yes, but it's not continuous if it isnt sealed top to bottom. If you only put the foam at the sill plate they use rockwool with no plastic or two inch for the rest of the wall it's not a continous vapour barrier.
@@DIYNorth putting foam board where you need insulation and air sealing and sealing the edges of the foam board is continuous vapor barrier. I don't get what you're driving at.
@percyfaith11 the original poster said nothing of floor to ceiling and rim joist foam board. Yes one could achieve a continuous vapour barrier with foam....obviously. But the original poster said nothing of how that would be integrated with the remainder of the basement insulation.
I live in climate zone 4, so it's not overly cold here in southern BC. I'm insulating my crawl space, so it won't be finished with drywall. The Rockwool website states that the product is air permeable. I've read that rim joist insulation should not be air permeable. I'd appreciate your thoughts on using it for my rim joists.
Rockwool is definitely air permeable, but so is pink batt insulation. You would need to add a plastic vapor barrier to it as well, generally either a 6 mil or 10 mil.
Good video, that should do a good job of keeping moisture from condensing and rotting the wood. I have a vented crawlspace with an insulated floor, and need to decide if I should seal that up better. I see you have at least 3 major topics on your channel, much like I do, contrary to the popular advice on YT to focus on a niche. I've given YT feedback several times, that their recommendation algorithm should consider channels like ours that focus on the individual video topic more than the prevailing channel audience. Several of my videos get very few views because they get recommended to the same audience as my 5 most popular videos, rather than the audience that would like that topic. Good job, looks like you're doing well!
lol, yeah. It was just going to be basic vehicle maintenance, but then I moved to a very expensive area and had to get a house that needed a lot of work. So i went with vehicles and general house repair. Then cryptocurrency blew up so i just made some videos on what I was doing with that (some of which got a lot of views). The crypto piece should fade away here soon and I'll be back to house and vehicles only. Then one day maybe just back to vehicles. I'm taking people on some detours.
The last place I owned I bought in 1980. The crawl space was on real dry ground with a good vapor barrier over it. I went down there in the winter and the insulation was damp. I did two layers of 2” closed cell rigid with closed cell spray foam around the edges. I cut the foam board about 3/4” smaller than the opening and filled the gap. I have a foam gun that cans screw on. I did the same on rim joists on both floors of our cabin too. The house we live in now has R-40 closed cell everywhere except the ceiling.
You're right. Doubling the bats in those areas doesn't result in doubled insulation value. Actual value is factored over the whole wall. Gaps = less % of the wall. Joists = less percentage. Etcetera. Still, with air sealing and that amount of spot insulation, you're attacking one of the coldest spots in the floor assembly. The basic R value won't fluctuate greatly, but the remediation of this assembly DOES pay some nice dividends in terms of comfort.
Now that the basement has been reinsulated from the floor to the ceiling it is much warmer. Just the rim joists didnt have a very large impact on the basement...maybe the floor near the walls of the first floor were warmer in the winter though.
They provide r values with and without additional spacers. It would depend on the r value you intend on achieving. I'm happy that any air leaks behind my vapour barrier are sealed and the r value is fine for me.
great question, thanks for asking. R-3.26 I used the following method. ASTM C 177, Standard Test Method for Steady-State Heat Flux Measurements and Thermal Transmission Properties by Means of the Guarded-Hot-Plate Apparatus
I've done the wall. I won't be doing any drywall directly over the plastic on the rim joists, but when the ceiling goes back on it will isolate the basement from the rim joist. I'm not really concerned about it burning though.
I wouldn't want drywall up in there, where it's likely to condensation on it and get moldy. Cut to fit roxul seems like it will do the job as a fire barrier, better than drywall even.
Thanks for the video. I'm in Calgary Alberta (cold climate) so I'm thinking your method (order of product) will be applicable to me. Did you feel a difference in the basement over the winter temperature wise? What about the floor temperature of the above floor? My current insulation looks just like yours did before you started, very poor just thrown in there. Did you have any spots where your house overhangs the concrete a few feet? (pushed out window, etc) some of my rim joists are really deep and obviously very hard to work on. Any tips for getting the insulation way back in these deep voids?
Yes the order of things is the same as when I was in Edmonton. Yes the basement is definately warmer. That said I didn't have full height wall insulation before, it used to stop 2 feet from the floor and I carried that all the way down to the floor so that also must have helped. I find the tiled portions of the main floor are still a bit cold near the wall, but the hard wood near the wall isn't nearly as cold. Overall I would say its better though. Yes I had deep spots under the chimney and under a bay window. those areas were also on a funky angle. I filled the whole cavity up so that area is pretty thick. kind of ate through a couple extra pieces of insulation. I used a poking stick to push the first piece in place and then I was able to reach the rest.
@@DIYNorth Appreciate it. Thanks man. Off to HD I go for supplies. You got some good vids, I'll tackle those attic insulation baffles at some point down the road too. Have a good one.
I did this two months ago and we are currently in a cold snap now in southern Ohio that Canada could relate to. I expected the first floor to benefit the most but the basement is not getting as cold as well. I have a two story house over a finished basement. I keep the thermostat set to 72 F and the first floor stays at 72. The basement and second floor are around 68-69. My next project will be to air seal and add more insulation in the attic.
@@chuckhall5347 I've noticed a big difference in my fall and December natural gas bills. I also sprayed a bunch of fiberglass in my attic last spring which really helped. The second floor of my house.
By adding the vapor barrier you've prevented your joists, and sill plate from breathing out any moisture that may get in them. Won't that rot the wood and potentially cause mold?
I would recommend always checking your local building codes for what is required. Vapour barrier is mandatory where I live for walls and between joists. I'm leaving the ceiling off the basement and I haven't seen any signs of moisture developing. I've been watching closely particularly where the air ducts enter the cavity. Without vapour barrier of any kind there would likely be significant air movement throughout the cavity.
@@DIYNorth thank you for responding and for the video. I'm looking to do something for my basement as well. It's probably very much like yours. I'm concerned about creating a vapor barrier that would prevent the wood from releasing moisture that seeps in from the ground or from water that may leak from the kitchen above. I would think sealing around all the joist/sill seams with caulk would be enough to stop any airflow then adding an insulation that also allows the wood to breathe would still provide the thermal benefits. What do you think?
I'll link the guide that I am using to do most of my insulation planning. Obviously this is a 30+ year old house and I can't meet every code, but for the most part putting vapour barrier on the winter warm side of the insulation is what they are recommending. I'm all for following the local building code to the extent possible, but there may be some specific circumstances where it can't be done or your home has building materials or other considerations that might need a different approach. My joist headers are at least 1 foot above the ground and are covered with siding on the outside and I don't see any signs of moisture build up, so I'm not really concerned. Again, know the local code, understand the climate and consider any specific considerations about your homes construction, and you will likely come up with the right decision. www.mah.gov.on.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=8405
The moisture will dry to the exterior. What he's done is to stop the interior moisture from getting to and condensing on the rim joist. That is the most serious threat in a cold climate.
This is the information I am trying to navigate through myself. There are so many opinions about the correct way of properly sealing at this location or any location for that matter. It seems that building science is always developing and as time passes they see how certain processes work or do not. My concern is trapping the moisture anywhere. I’m leaning more to sealing the seams and rockwool comfort batt R23 and potentially doubling it up. I already have a dehumidifier installed in my crawlspace and working on digging it out and resealing the foundation wall at the exterior. It’s a lot of work but rewarding when things come together.
I live in Zone 6 Kansas. In summer we can go for weeks with 100 degrees or more and in the winter with below zero temps - so BOTH extremes with very few spring and fall days where it's pretty much neutral - and not much moisture to deal with. What do you recommend for my case? Thank you.
I looked around and didn't see any thing overtly obvious on Kansas. I did find this though insulationinstitute.org/im-a-building-or-facility-professional/residential/installation-guidance-2/moisture-management/vapor-retarders/ It would lead me to believe that you are still in a zone that uses vapor barrier on the interior side. What I would do if there is any doubt is to go to a new sub-division somewhere in your area and do a walk through of some new built homes with unfinished basements (there will be a weekend open house somewhere). The new homes should be following the building code on something as obvious as vapor barrier location.
My house is 100 yr old and doesn't have a sill plate. The joists sit directly on the blocks which aren't insulated. What would be the best method to insulate? Thanks in advance...
I think we are in similar climate zones, though your state has 3 different zones if I understand the climate map correctly. So far I haven't found very many good guides on-line for insulating a basement. The guide I usually refer to is linked below and is from Natural Resources Canada. Its not from a company so they aren't trying to sell you their crap like a lot of other sites I've looked at. Its from Canada so you'd have to consider that based on your state and federal regulations. Honestly if I found a good one from the States I'd use it since our houses are pretty similar. Anyway figures 6-18 and 6-19 provide some guidance to floor joists with no sill plate that are cast in the basement wall. you may have a similar thing going on. It appears that in one of the configurations they add a 2x4 running along the wall under the joists to create a ledge for the insulation. www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/make-your-home-more-energy-efficient/keeping-the-heat/section-6-basement-insulation-floors-walls-and-crawl-spaces/15639
You would have been better off using foam board first, then 1 layer of rock wool. Rook wool is a insulator, not a air sealer. Don't be surprised if you end up with a mold problem right along the wood.
That isn't correct. In cold climates the vapour barrier goes on the hot side (inside of house) relative to the insulation. I would say insulation then 6mil vapour barrier is the most common method for insulating in basements in this area. if you live in the southern US then perhaps you need to reverse things.
I struggle with this also, I live in a cold northeast climate, but most guidance I've seen for diy'ers seems oriented toward the southern states. I also have fieldstone and no capillary break so it seems to become even more complicated.
@@kw6713a I used a few documents for guidance. Your area may be a bit different, but here is a version of one of the guides I used. It is a Federal Government of Canada Doc. www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/make-your-home-more-energy-efficient/keeping-the-heat/section-6-basement-insulation-floors-walls-and-crawl-spaces/15639#a6-2
@@DIYNorth thanks much, I'm in upstate NY so this would likely be appropriate for me also! I'll also try to dig up anything on point that is promulgated by NYS.
I haven't yet. The indoor and outdoor temperature is almost the same right now. Come winter for sure I will. You could feel the wind coming through in spots. Also since the insulation was not touching the underside of the floor, if you walk near a wall the main floor the floor temperature was very cold.
@@LotusDreaming I actually just finished the basement insullation this week. It's still not that cold outside but I think there is a pretty big difference.
It could, but it depends where you live and which direction the air generally moves based on your climate. Having continuous vapour barrier is definitely the building code where I live. temperature and humidity levels are important considerations. If local building code indicates no vapour barrier, I would say don't use it. I local codes indicate vapour barrier is a must, then that recommendation is there for a reason. The old code would allow for the insulation and vapour barrier to stop below the frost line where i live, but that is no longer allowed, and it must now be continuous. (there are foam options as well)
Ask yourself where the moisture is coming from in a northern climate. It is moving from the house to the outside in winter. It will hit the cold rim joist and condense. So by keeping the vapor barrier on the warm side (inside) you stop the moisture from condensing on the cold rim joist. Any moisture that enters from the exterior will be in the humid summer and will dry to the exterior.
As both DIYNorth and Percy stated, he has it correct for his climate zone. Depending on climate zone and building code, the vapor barrier requirements and assembly change. Some climates and building codes don’t require it at all. In those cases, rockwool is a great choice because it allows water vapor to pass through both ways and dry to whichever area it needs to throughout the seasons.
@@DIYNorthAs long as you have a capillary break between the masonry foundation wall and the sill plate (e.g. sill sealer), you should be ok in a cold climate (but you have to seal the vapor barrier methodically). I couldn't tell if you have one in the video.
You would have to take that up with the company's engineers and the Reflective Insulation Manufacturer's Association International (RIMA-I) who certifies their products. I have faith that they will change their ratings based on your assessment.
@@DIYNorththat's wasn't a knock against you or anything. it's just these companies are less then scrupulous with their labeling and marketing. And, I don't have faith in a small group of product manufacturers to be impartial in certifying their own products, or be looking out for consumers' best interests.
@@berkut7 lol...my bad. This particular video draws some strong opinions. I'm sure that the product meets what they say it does, but it is also probably tested under very specific lab conditions that might not actually ever be representative of how it performs in real life. All I need it to do is provide a small insulation break so that in the summer when the ac is running I dont get condensation on the portion of the ducting that is inside the insulation and behind the vapor barrier.
Even though you see a lot of advice and see a lot of builders putting plastic vapor barrier over the fiberglass (or whatever) insulation, the "new knowledge" is to avoid both fiberglass and plastic below grade in colder climates. I caulked around the rim, plate, and joists, put in 2" of XPS, then a layer of rockwool. After 3 years, there is no mold or moisture or even smell ... plus it made a huge difference in the floor above and the heating bill too. I used to melt snow 18" all around the house, and now the snow stays there until the sun can melt it.
i'm happy that you are happy with your insulation.
@billsmith8339 Did you use foam or more caulking (or other) around the XPS to seal it? I don't know what to believe but I read too much about toxic foam off gassing or I'd spray the whole cavity. Also, is there anything over the rockwool, or is that the final layer? Thanks.
I had spent so much money on the XPS, I used regular outdoor caulk - and even that stuff was almost $10 a tube.@@therealjetblack
Yeah, absolutely NO plastic barrier here! It causes so many issues. The walls need to breath. We haven't been allowed to do this on an inspected basement for quite some time. Rock wool is a great choice. Fiberglass is a mistake in a basement wall
Where do you live where the code is to have no vapour barrier?
I'm currently sealing the band joist on my house in a temperate region. I used caulk to air seal the bay not spray foam. My basement is finished but luckily has a drop ceiling I can move out of the way. I am using two layers of 3.5 inch Rockwool. The first is a height of 9 inches and the second is 10.5 to fit down on top of the finished wall. Using the Rockwool and caulk is giving me great air sealing, thermal break and a fire stop above the finished wall so overall I am very happy.
I have done a similar process on two basements in the past but used foam board. Installing mineral wool goes faster since you just cut it and press it in place where as with foam board you have to spray foam around it after. In addition, if I need a termite inspection or treatment in the future I the mineral wool can be temporarily removed then put back.
A word of caution. Use protection when working with mineral wool. Cover your skin, cover your eyes and use a mask.
I like the RockWool. I've noticed a dramatic improvement in the last 6 months or so with the basement complete. I find that their is more irritation when working with Pink Fiberglass insulation than RockWool. When just cutting with a knife I didn't do much as far as PPE other than gloves. There were times that I was ripping it to put it behind tighter areas and then I wore a P100 mask. I found the cleanly cut RockWool made virtually no particulate, but ripping it by hand did cause some minor dust.
I have a balloon frame home 1890s construction, meaning there are no sills between the 1st and 2nd floors, so when insulated I measured between the studs and cut some 2x4s put them in with an angle drill. I also insulated between the rim joists in the basement. I covered the wall with 6 mil plastic and put in new drywall
hopefully that helps keep the heat in during the winter
I have a balloon frame too. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this.
Very comprehensive method and video. I think when others use the "flash and batt" designation, they mean a full layer of closed cell spray foam, as much as 2" to form a vapor barrier to minimize condensation at the exterior sheathing (or rim joist) and create a higher R-value. A vapor barrier on the interior, of course is according to your environment. Not everyone will want that.
I believe that interior vapor barrier is recommended by the IRC for Climate Zone 5 and everything to the North of Climate Zone 5. That would be all of Canada and about 1/3 to 1/2 of the US. Zones 1, 2, and 3 should not have an interior vapor barrier. Zone 4 is mixed.
Closed cell is its own vapor barrier. No need for anything on top of 2” of closed cell in a rim joist.
So much easier and more effective to start with 2" closed cell foam and then adding mineral wool. Thermal bridging will impact the mineral wool more than foam.
@@BobPritchard I'm not sure it would be easier or more cost efficient. Thermal bridging through the floor joists will be the same. A continuous vapour barrier on the inside of the house is required here so adding foam would just be another step added to this process.
@@DIYNorth I respectfully disagree. The foam against the rim joist would provide a vapor barrier and lessen thermal bridging more than mineral wool. I use mineral wool extensively towards the conditioned space. With just mineral wool and a plastic vapor barrier towards the conditioned space I'd be concerned about the moisture getting into that closed area and the dew point below which the moisture will condense causing all sorts of problems with the wood assembly. After a year or so you can inspect the plastic barrier for signs of moisture. Good luck regardless.
I’d have absolutely foregone that plastic + acoustic sealant step for a piece of 2” formular foam board for sure. What a mess! Lol. The “pink stuff”, goodstuff window & door sprayed around the 1/4” gap, plus one piece of rockwool after that would have been perfect.
lol...Its the stickiest product ever. Once the edges got trimmed up and taped it looks pretty clean. Its also very time consuming. It does create a good seal though.
You must live in a totally dry climate. If not, I see great places for mold growth and/or wood rot between and behind and above the pieces you added, even possible water damage from outside all that you'd never know was there until it's too late.
I'm not sure if my climate is dry or not, but this video is almost 4 years old and there is absolutely no indication of moisture behind the plastic, nor has there ever been.
I'd say the building code supports this method for a reason.
2 inches of foam board,sealed with spray foam around the edges and where the sill plate meets the concrete. Then the insulation of your choice is all you need.Forget the plastic and acoustic sealer
How are you achieving a continuous warm side vapour barrier using your recommended method.
@@DIYNorth The cold air and moisture mostly comes from under the sill plate because that's where I found the biggest gap.You are not addressing that.The previous owner used plastic and I found mold on every piece of insulation.The house is a lot warmer now
I'm glad your house is warmer.
I definately filled under the sill plate though.
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Spray foam gaps follow with 2" foam board for your vapor barrier on rim joist and sill plate. Then add mineral wool for added R value. No need for messy caulk or plastic to trap moisture.
how are you achieving a continuous vapor barrier on the inner side of your basement with your proposed method?
Not all climates have the same recommendation and what you indicated sounds like it would be applicable in a warm climate.
I don't live in a warm climate.
@@DIYNorth xps foam board is impermeable. Sealed with closed cell spray foam at the edges it is a vapor barrier if 2" foam board is used.
@@percyfaith11 yes, but it's not continuous if it isnt sealed top to bottom. If you only put the foam at the sill plate they use rockwool with no plastic or two inch for the rest of the wall it's not a continous vapour barrier.
@@DIYNorth putting foam board where you need insulation and air sealing and sealing the edges of the foam board is continuous vapor barrier. I don't get what you're driving at.
@percyfaith11 the original poster said nothing of floor to ceiling and rim joist foam board.
Yes one could achieve a continuous vapour barrier with foam....obviously.
But the original poster said nothing of how that would be integrated with the remainder of the basement insulation.
I live in climate zone 4, so it's not overly cold here in southern BC. I'm insulating my crawl space, so it won't be finished with drywall. The Rockwool website states that the product is air permeable. I've read that rim joist insulation should not be air permeable. I'd appreciate your thoughts on using it for my rim joists.
Rockwool is definitely air permeable, but so is pink batt insulation. You would need to add a plastic vapor barrier to it as well, generally either a 6 mil or 10 mil.
I removed my batt insulation from that area because of the ice build up. Been dry ever since.
Did it have vapor barrier
Good video, that should do a good job of keeping moisture from condensing and rotting the wood. I have a vented crawlspace with an insulated floor, and need to decide if I should seal that up better.
I see you have at least 3 major topics on your channel, much like I do, contrary to the popular advice on YT to focus on a niche. I've given YT feedback several times, that their recommendation algorithm should consider channels like ours that focus on the individual video topic more than the prevailing channel audience. Several of my videos get very few views because they get recommended to the same audience as my 5 most popular videos, rather than the audience that would like that topic. Good job, looks like you're doing well!
lol, yeah. It was just going to be basic vehicle maintenance, but then I moved to a very expensive area and had to get a house that needed a lot of work. So i went with vehicles and general house repair. Then cryptocurrency blew up so i just made some videos on what I was doing with that (some of which got a lot of views). The crypto piece should fade away here soon and I'll be back to house and vehicles only. Then one day maybe just back to vehicles. I'm taking people on some detours.
The last place I owned I bought in 1980. The crawl space was on real dry ground with a good vapor barrier over it. I went down there in the winter and the insulation was damp. I did two layers of 2” closed cell rigid with closed cell spray foam around the edges. I cut the foam board about 3/4” smaller than the opening and filled the gap. I have a foam gun that cans screw on. I did the same on rim joists on both floors of our cabin too. The house we live in now has R-40 closed cell everywhere except the ceiling.
How’s this been holding up? Any mold growth or rotting of the wood at the rim joist?
No mold, no moisture.
I assume the wood is fine
@@DIYNorth very happy to hear that. Good work on putting the work in and trying to make the most informed decision.
You're right. Doubling the bats in those areas doesn't result in doubled insulation value.
Actual value is factored over the whole wall.
Gaps = less % of the wall.
Joists = less percentage.
Etcetera.
Still, with air sealing and that amount of spot insulation, you're attacking one of the coldest spots in the floor assembly.
The basic R value won't fluctuate greatly, but the remediation of this assembly DOES pay some nice dividends in terms of comfort.
Now that the basement has been reinsulated from the floor to the ceiling it is much warmer. Just the rim joists didnt have a very large impact on the basement...maybe the floor near the walls of the first floor were warmer in the winter though.
Reflectix type of bubble wrap insulation must have a stand off space from the duct to be effective.
They provide r values with and without additional spacers.
It would depend on the r value you intend on achieving.
I'm happy that any air leaks behind my vapour barrier are sealed and the r value is fine for me.
@@DIYNorth A metalized surface in contact with a heated surface will conduct heat. It's not providing the r value you think.
Yes...that is why the air bubbles are between the sheets of metal.
I would argue it is providing precisely the R value I think.
@@DIYNorth Precisely what R value are you getting?
great question, thanks for asking.
R-3.26
I used the following method.
ASTM C 177, Standard Test Method for Steady-State Heat Flux Measurements and Thermal Transmission Properties by Means of the Guarded-Hot-Plate Apparatus
are you going to have drywall cover the plastic later so plastic won't burn?
I've done the wall. I won't be doing any drywall directly over the plastic on the rim joists, but when the ceiling goes back on it will isolate the basement from the rim joist.
I'm not really concerned about it burning though.
I wouldn't want drywall up in there, where it's likely to condensation on it and get moldy. Cut to fit roxul seems like it will do the job as a fire barrier, better than drywall even.
@somecooney5304 just putting in a ceiling would also likely work as to isolate from fire
Luv that ROXUL
I think that it is a good product.
Lotta good rimming boy…
Scout Master Kevin, is that you?
Rockwool is water repellent. Pink fiberglass is like coton sucks moisture or water.
Yes, rockwool also doesnt burn.
Thanks for the video. I'm in Calgary Alberta (cold climate) so I'm thinking your method (order of product) will be applicable to me. Did you feel a difference in the basement over the winter temperature wise? What about the floor temperature of the above floor? My current insulation looks just like yours did before you started, very poor just thrown in there.
Did you have any spots where your house overhangs the concrete a few feet? (pushed out window, etc) some of my rim joists are really deep and obviously very hard to work on. Any tips for getting the insulation way back in these deep voids?
Yes the order of things is the same as when I was in Edmonton. Yes the basement is definately warmer. That said I didn't have full height wall insulation before, it used to stop 2 feet from the floor and I carried that all the way down to the floor so that also must have helped. I find the tiled portions of the main floor are still a bit cold near the wall, but the hard wood near the wall isn't nearly as cold. Overall I would say its better though.
Yes I had deep spots under the chimney and under a bay window. those areas were also on a funky angle. I filled the whole cavity up so that area is pretty thick. kind of ate through a couple extra pieces of insulation. I used a poking stick to push the first piece in place and then I was able to reach the rest.
@@DIYNorth Appreciate it. Thanks man. Off to HD I go for supplies. You got some good vids, I'll tackle those attic insulation baffles at some point down the road too. Have a good one.
@@chrisparsons3141 Best of luck
I did this two months ago and we are currently in a cold snap now in southern Ohio that Canada could relate to. I expected the first floor to benefit the most but the basement is not getting as cold as well. I have a two story house over a finished basement. I keep the thermostat set to 72 F and the first floor stays at 72. The basement and second floor are around 68-69. My next project will be to air seal and add more insulation in the attic.
@@chuckhall5347 I've noticed a big difference in my fall and December natural gas bills. I also sprayed a bunch of fiberglass in my attic last spring which really helped. The second floor of my house.
By adding the vapor barrier you've prevented your joists, and sill plate from breathing out any moisture that may get in them. Won't that rot the wood and potentially cause mold?
I would recommend always checking your local building codes for what is required. Vapour barrier is mandatory where I live for walls and between joists. I'm leaving the ceiling off the basement and I haven't seen any signs of moisture developing. I've been watching closely particularly where the air ducts enter the cavity. Without vapour barrier of any kind there would likely be significant air movement throughout the cavity.
@@DIYNorth thank you for responding and for the video. I'm looking to do something for my basement as well. It's probably very much like yours. I'm concerned about creating a vapor barrier that would prevent the wood from releasing moisture that seeps in from the ground or from water that may leak from the kitchen above. I would think sealing around all the joist/sill seams with caulk would be enough to stop any airflow then adding an insulation that also allows the wood to breathe would still provide the thermal benefits. What do you think?
I'll link the guide that I am using to do most of my insulation planning. Obviously this is a 30+ year old house and I can't meet every code, but for the most part putting vapour barrier on the winter warm side of the insulation is what they are recommending. I'm all for following the local building code to the extent possible, but there may be some specific circumstances where it can't be done or your home has building materials or other considerations that might need a different approach. My joist headers are at least 1 foot above the ground and are covered with siding on the outside and I don't see any signs of moisture build up, so I'm not really concerned. Again, know the local code, understand the climate and consider any specific considerations about your homes construction, and you will likely come up with the right decision.
www.mah.gov.on.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=8405
The moisture will dry to the exterior. What he's done is to stop the interior moisture from getting to and condensing on the rim joist. That is the most serious threat in a cold climate.
This is the information I am trying to navigate through myself. There are so many opinions about the correct way of properly sealing at this location or any location for that matter. It seems that building science is always developing and as time passes they see how certain processes work or do not. My concern is trapping the moisture anywhere. I’m leaning more to sealing the seams and rockwool comfort batt R23 and potentially doubling it up. I already have a dehumidifier installed in my crawlspace and working on digging it out and resealing the foundation wall at the exterior. It’s a lot of work but rewarding when things come together.
My window guy didn’t replace my basement windows properly.
that's not good. That is the opposite of what you want from a window guy.
Awesome
thanks for checking it out.
I live in Zone 6 Kansas. In summer we can go for weeks with 100 degrees or more and in the winter with below zero temps - so BOTH extremes with very few spring and fall days where it's pretty much neutral - and not much moisture to deal with. What do you recommend for my case? Thank you.
I looked around and didn't see any thing overtly obvious on Kansas. I did find this though insulationinstitute.org/im-a-building-or-facility-professional/residential/installation-guidance-2/moisture-management/vapor-retarders/
It would lead me to believe that you are still in a zone that uses vapor barrier on the interior side.
What I would do if there is any doubt is to go to a new sub-division somewhere in your area and do a walk through of some new built homes with unfinished basements (there will be a weekend open house somewhere). The new homes should be following the building code on something as obvious as vapor barrier location.
@@DIYNorthnot sure if it’s different in Canada, but in USA you’d probably find no insulation in the RJC on new construction.
My house is 100 yr old and doesn't have a sill plate. The joists sit directly on the blocks which aren't insulated.
What would be the best method to insulate?
Thanks in advance...
Are you in a hot climate or a cold climate.
@@DIYNorth Pittsburgh
I think we are in similar climate zones, though your state has 3 different zones if I understand the climate map correctly. So far I haven't found very many good guides on-line for insulating a basement. The guide I usually refer to is linked below and is from Natural Resources Canada. Its not from a company so they aren't trying to sell you their crap like a lot of other sites I've looked at. Its from Canada so you'd have to consider that based on your state and federal regulations. Honestly if I found a good one from the States I'd use it since our houses are pretty similar. Anyway figures 6-18 and 6-19 provide some guidance to floor joists with no sill plate that are cast in the basement wall. you may have a similar thing going on. It appears that in one of the configurations they add a 2x4 running along the wall under the joists to create a ledge for the insulation.
www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/make-your-home-more-energy-efficient/keeping-the-heat/section-6-basement-insulation-floors-walls-and-crawl-spaces/15639
@@DIYNorth thank you 🙂
You would have been better off using foam board first, then 1 layer of rock wool. Rook wool is a insulator, not a air sealer. Don't be surprised if you end up with a mold problem right along the wood.
That isn't correct. In cold climates the vapour barrier goes on the hot side (inside of house) relative to the insulation. I would say insulation then 6mil vapour barrier is the most common method for insulating in basements in this area. if you live in the southern US then perhaps you need to reverse things.
I struggle with this also, I live in a cold northeast climate, but most guidance I've seen for diy'ers seems oriented toward the southern states. I also have fieldstone and no capillary break so it seems to become even more complicated.
@@kw6713a I used a few documents for guidance. Your area may be a bit different, but here is a version of one of the guides I used. It is a Federal Government of Canada Doc.
www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/make-your-home-more-energy-efficient/keeping-the-heat/section-6-basement-insulation-floors-walls-and-crawl-spaces/15639#a6-2
@@DIYNorth thanks much, I'm in upstate NY so this would likely be appropriate for me also! I'll also try to dig up anything on point that is promulgated by NYS.
good video, did you see a difference in temperature after installed?
I haven't yet. The indoor and outdoor temperature is almost the same right now. Come winter for sure I will. You could feel the wind coming through in spots. Also since the insulation was not touching the underside of the floor, if you walk near a wall the main floor the floor temperature was very cold.
@@DIYNorth Any updates?
@@LotusDreaming I actually just finished the basement insullation this week. It's still not that cold outside but I think there is a pretty big difference.
Plastic may trap moisture and rot wood.
It could, but it depends where you live and which direction the air generally moves based on your climate. Having continuous vapour barrier is definitely the building code where I live. temperature and humidity levels are important considerations. If local building code indicates no vapour barrier, I would say don't use it. I local codes indicate vapour barrier is a must, then that recommendation is there for a reason. The old code would allow for the insulation and vapour barrier to stop below the frost line where i live, but that is no longer allowed, and it must now be continuous. (there are foam options as well)
Ask yourself where the moisture is coming from in a northern climate. It is moving from the house to the outside in winter. It will hit the cold rim joist and condense. So by keeping the vapor barrier on the warm side (inside) you stop the moisture from condensing on the cold rim joist. Any moisture that enters from the exterior will be in the humid summer and will dry to the exterior.
As both DIYNorth and Percy stated, he has it correct for his climate zone. Depending on climate zone and building code, the vapor barrier requirements and assembly change. Some climates and building codes don’t require it at all. In those cases, rockwool is a great choice because it allows water vapor to pass through both ways and dry to whichever area it needs to throughout the seasons.
@@DIYNorthAs long as you have a capillary break between the masonry foundation wall and the sill plate (e.g. sill sealer), you should be ok in a cold climate (but you have to seal the vapor barrier methodically). I couldn't tell if you have one in the video.
@@FrancisKoczur everything gets sealed in when I did the rest of the insulation from the floor up.
something that's barely thicker that a quarter of an inch has an R value of 4.. suuurre....
You would have to take that up with the company's engineers and the Reflective Insulation Manufacturer's Association International (RIMA-I) who certifies their products. I have faith that they will change their ratings based on your assessment.
@@DIYNorththat's wasn't a knock against you or anything. it's just these companies are less then scrupulous with their labeling and marketing. And, I don't have faith in a small group of product manufacturers to be impartial in certifying their own products, or be looking out for consumers' best interests.
@@berkut7 lol...my bad. This particular video draws some strong opinions.
I'm sure that the product meets what they say it does, but it is also probably tested under very specific lab conditions that might not actually ever be representative of how it performs in real life.
All I need it to do is provide a small insulation break so that in the summer when the ac is running I dont get condensation on the portion of the ducting that is inside the insulation and behind the vapor barrier.