Is Sumo Deadlifting Cheating?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2018
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How can it be wrong if it feels so right!?!
OmarIsuf eat butt, it's the "dark side"
Although Omar is memeing, it does feel very right
More power to the sumo 💪
But it looks wrong
@Jeeses99 I mean that it looks unpleasant
Do you tell your parents you pull sumo?
I’m working up the courage... 😕
Have you tried praying the sumo away?
Nick T 😆
Nick T I actually tried sending my kid to a conventional camp once and I found him pulling sumo 2 weeks after coming home
If sumo is respectable then put it in your resume.
love the extra burn with the metric system
throwing hella shade at the us
I mean, Canadurp is part of the civilized west!
@@taunokekkonen5733 are we really though?
🤣🤣
The metric was a burn?
Deadlifting is cheating altogether: have some proper range of motion and snatch that barbell right above your head! :D
Snatch is cheating, as you're using momentum and jumping under the bar for extra benefit. Be a man and do a combined deadlift + bicep curl + overhead press in one motion :)
VortechBand lmao bicep curl into a slow and control strict over headpress, then do some tricep extensions while the weight is up there for a few good reps before putting it back down.
@@MrInzombia after you tricep extend it, put it on your back and start squatting it
@@takodafreeman1668 after you done squatting, do some good mornings.
You better stop now
Long time ago when I was in physics we went to a weight room and measured the Joules (energy) required in a lift and how it was affected by things like RoM. It'd be interesting to see something similar done to this test.
Work (in joules ) = force * distance.
So yes a sumo pull will require less energy than a conventional one of the same weight, since the barbell moves a shorter distance.
Energy requirement isn’t the limiting factor of lift though, but rather the maximum torque requirements at the joints involved. Sumo has been shown to require the same torque requirement as conventional.
@@finnconroy2668 energy is also torque*angle traveled. The angle traveled is less insumo, so less work
@@Grutzai
Yes but the amount of work done still isn’t what makes a lift harder.
so unless sumo requires less torque requirements at the joints, it isn’t easier.
@@finnconroy2668 Force is subjective because of lever actions.
Depending on where your fulcrum is, you can move the lever more or less, with the same force .
0------------^-------------1
0----^---------------------1
0---------------------^----1
If the fulcrum is close to the load, you'll move the load less distance.
If the fulcrum is close to the puller, you'll move the load more distance.
With the same amount of effort required.
I mean.. If it takes 10-15 cm from the rom regardless of the lifter and it has different leverages and joint angles, shouldn't it be considered a different movement?
true
so should benchers with a wide grip and a naturally large arch compete in a different fed?
Should lowbar be in a different fed?
If the ROM is different regardless of the lifter then they should just switch to sumo. Simple as that.
Yet some people dont, why?
Oh that's right because it's not like that for everybody you dumb fuck.
@@octupus2 jesus calm down
Liu Kang that's an empty opinion
Interesting, I got mad respect from my Bros who wouldn't lie and kiss my ass after I pulled 550 at 160 be...maybe speaking for yourself
"he's super long and gangly and weird" hahah.... crease!!
This was a great video Mr Krawfish. Like the translation to cold numbers as opposed to opinions (which is great aswell, but this just gives a different feedback)
You need to let the measuring tape hang to get an accurate result. In some cases, you measured at a steep angle like at 4:52
Sick vid. I reckon measuring hip and knee angle differences could also be cool for this experiment.
Even though i exclusively do conv, i don't get why it would be cheating when the stance is legal in competition. It would be like saying a runner is cheating because he has longer legs. And if used for hypertrophy purposes it's just a matter of what muscles you want to work more, and hence doesn't apply.
no it's not like saying a runner is cheating because he has longer legs, like at all ; we never talked about physique, but technique
Im merely speaking in terms of utilizing an advantage.
you should be merely talking about technique, but you just were speaking about physique with your "runners with longer legs"
Considering that people often utilize on or the other(sumo vs conv), depending on their physique, then how are they not related?
I don't considerate this in that debate, I mean : in competition based debate
Sumo is cheating in strongman competitions. Besides that, it's just another way to lift.
I would agree fully! It’s against the rules!
I dont think its cheating its just not allowed
Sebastian Tyler *facepalm* and the Darwin Award for Biggest Dunce goes to you, my good sir! Conglaturation! How does it feel to know you’re leading the way in human de-evolution?
Ryan Newton how is that human de-evolotion? sumo and "cheating" is a discussion. and I wasnt wrong, I just didn't comply to the way you want it. which is ignorant and arrogant.
Sebastian Tyler Go back and read your own comment first buddy. I said what I said because you clearly contradicted yourself in the statement that sumo “isn’t cheating, it’s just not allowed (in strongman)”. When referring to the legality of the subject in question, “cheating” and “not allowed” are synonymous. Hence, I made a (slightly) low ball joke about your stupidity being a part of the reason humans are “de-evolving”.
Congrats, you’re 0 for 2 on comments today. Better luck next time
One thing you can do once you measure the difference is to lift with weights or blocks under the plates, raising the bar an equal amount to what you got by comparing both styles.
Imagine to lift conventional with the bar 16cm higher, it would definitely make it easier to lock the knees, but one thing has to be said about sumo, the force is not being applied in a straight line, but still, i would consider that the advantage in starting pulling position could make a bit of a difference, specially if the difference is that big.
I must say tho, the involvement of the muscles is totally different in each style, for which i believe they should be different lifts, but I'm just a nobody when it comes to powerlifting.
What about muscle recruitment? Might be a good topic to talk about and could tell us some interesting things like the difference in the muscle mass used in the performance.
YESSSS
I'd be interested in seeing a video about how to start using hook grip. By that I mean the process of how a beginner to hook grip would start getting used to it enough to pull near maximal loads.
I train both honestly, I've heard it said, that Sumo is a performance move whereas conventional is a developmental movement. My Sumo deadlift is about 40 lb higher than my conventional.
love this instuctive video. so i was feeling guilty for being a cheater again just like how iam on a regular basis. but thanks i dont feel bad but rather feeling great. and i absolutely learned how to pull sumo from ur videos u posted in the past
as grand daddy Boris Sheiko would say, "it's an empty discussion, only weak people think sumo is cheating"
Or maybe people who see that more often than not a person will sumo more than they do conventional think sumo is cheating and it has nothing to do with them being weak
@Gore4ever FulciLives you sound like a weak lifter lol
Gore4ever FulciLives you should tell that to Ed Coan
Jordan You clearly don’t see the joke in that dudes comment
Jordan that Gore4Ever dude, the things he says are worded so ridiculously he’s 100% satire
Great video:) I wanna know why i can pull more doing conventional than i can sumo. For some reason i find the initial pull really hard to get off the floor. I even take my stance in quite a bit n make sure my joints r stacked.
Relatively weaker quads and stronger posterior chain. The hardest part of the Sumo is of the floor, so if your quad strength is insufficient to break it of the floor. Therefor shorter range of motion doesn't matter, and the back and hamstrings never really get a chance to engage and contribute significantly to the lift.
I personally pull sumo deadlift and I don't think it gives me any advantage. The reason I do it, is because it anatomically suits me. Convensional makes my back feel pain and i do not feel comfortable with it. I think you should choose the one, you enjoy most. Only a group of people can lift both effectively and they probably can DL more in sumo, since it is more leg focused.
Just fix your form lmfao
So how do you explain more records being pulled by sumo than conventional? Because it’s shorter ROM, easier to recover from, and not a true hip hinge. Less core.
The list goes on and on.
@@rickywagner6990 what is heavier? Convencional WR or Sumo WR? Sumo allow some people, that are able to perform both styles, an advantage. But they are people, not even a small amount to be honest, that cannot pull differently. Bitching that it is cheating is just lame.
anatomically dumbass
Bryce,
whats the actual difference in range of motion between stiff and deadlift bar without significant whip on the deadlift bar (which is there I guess around 250 kg+, but there is almost 0 with one plate on each side)? I think the whole difference between range of motion of both bars it showed is because you used wider stance with the deadlift bar, which obviously decreases range of motion.
thanks for clarification
Personally, my pr's are about the same for both, but I just feel more explosive when pulling conventional. My setup also feels significantly tighter.
Sumo doesn't tax my back and allows me to fully use my legs, it's the only way to fully enjoy deadlifting for me without feeling like SHIT afterwards
Yeah but your literally killing your back! And your not getting as much of a pull!!!
But muh rounded thoracic narrow stance Konstantinovs record tho
I don't understand why people hate on the sumo deadlift so much. For me personally, I'm 6 foot 4, arms are pretty short and my legs are long af. It feels more comfortable on my body to do sumo deadlifts. I can do conventional deadlifts, but not comfortably. The sumo deadlift is more technical in nature and I know guys that can conventional deadlift 495 but can't sumo deadlift 225 for reps. In the end, do what works for you! who tf cares if people say you're "cheating. Chances are they probably can't lift nearly as much as you can. Am I right?
My views on sumo are the same as much views on the contortionist bench press. It's legal in competition, but not so impressive for the observer.
Awesome video, clears up a lot of questions I had. Do the competitions you compete in use a deadlift bar or a stiff bar?
ipf uses the stiffest of the stiff bars
Eleiko bars just wont bend. At all.
I use a stiff bar in comps
I think pulling sumo is the deadlift equivalent of arching your back excessively on bench... there's no doubt it makes the movement easier in the sense that you're moving it less distance, but you also have a very different leverage that can work for or against you depending on your body type and training regimen. For example, I actually pull signigicantly less sumo than conventional despite less ROM. A possible solution would be categorizing conventional and sumo separately, but I think that would unnecessarily complicate things
Sumo "vs" Conv is the age old question...its time for a new age; Sumo "&" Conv
Unless you are in worlds, get technically sound with both...imo
Great video as always!
Effin Bruce Krawfish.
lol did Dillon just call himself "Big D" the whole video? I mean he edits these, right? Please say yes, that would be amazing
Yes, yes he did.
With long arms,legs and a shot thorso,am i build for sumo or conventional?I did conventional and now i switched to sumo and it took me 4 week to pull the same weight as conventional.
So far as I know, the specific rules and regulations for deadlift are simply to lift the weight off the ground the rules and regulations make no specific mention on stance or style as long as your feet don't go outside the circumference of the plates...in strongman competition I would like to believe sumo is not allowed but I'm not sure so feel free to correct me
I would be interested to see if the measurements are still the same with more weight on the deadlift bar and whip engaged
4:55 Lmao he measured like 3cm away from where directly below the plate was
Yeah, that was some major parallax error.
It increased the distance
If you use trigonometry that's not even a 0.5cm difference.
tan^-1(3/34)= 5.6 degrees
34cm*cos(5.6) ≃ 33.9cm
So 🤷♂️
Sumo feels more confortable to me, i just started doing it and i'm pulling just as much as in conventional. I'm not training to compete or anything, but i would like to know if they can substitue each other. If i feel more confortable with sumo can i just pull sumo or should i try to mix in concentional as well with lighter weight to feel confy. Thanks for the video :D
So, you just prove it’s a different movement. Perhaps it should get its own category.
ever heard of mv0.5v^2=mgh in high school physics? what is the h I wonder.
Right
bracing during lift is cheating, real lifters don't need to brace
You know, back when weightlifters started squat snatching in the 50s and 60s the splitters never cried "cheating" because the rules don't say split (or squat). If you can lift more within the rule you win. Disagreeing about a legal win is called bad sportsmanship, as I understand it, and it isn't even up for debate except in their minds.
It is not the same thing. In weightlifting the bar still ends up at the same spot ROM isn't different just the way it gets there. Where as here Sumo has a shorter rom and as many people said just look at the IPF under 105kg how many pull sumo and how many pull conventional.
Victor Manin The range of motion of the first/second pull of a squat snatch is about 5cm shorter than the split. Everybody accepts the fact you need to pull the bar higher to get under it because the aft leg needs to go really far to reach final catch position and it takes a bit longer to get into position for the catch, so it needs to be higher. Because the range of motion from the floor to final position is the same (with the same lifter) doesn't mean the distance traveled was also the same...remember in WL the bar can change direction in a good lift and it does. Look at how much extra ROM there is when someone catches a clean too high and comes down 11cm to bottom before coming back up. You are certainly right about the comparison not being a terrific one about lifting mechanics; my comment is more about the fact the rules define what cheating is, not what technique is easiest for you. WLs also only started squatting (in competition) once the rules stopped specifying the grip width for the lift(1946) and squat snatching (with a wide grip) became a legal option: it was no longer 'cheating".
You said short guys have better leverages for sumo, what would u consider short? I’m about 6foot 1 which I would class as tall so should I stick to conventional?
Sumo is also easier on the back, and works the quads and upper traps more.
That’s why I do sumo on 100+ only, I had a back injury so I use it so that I have less stress
@@shemshem9998 same. I'm also kind of small so it feels easiest for me. Sumo is usually easier for smaller people and conventional is easier for larger people.
Ok good for you to put your health first but they are 2 different movement.That means that you cant do the one instead or the other expecting to train your muscle groups the same way.Its that simply.
Sumo has way better carry over to squat, because i used to do both and when i began sumo my squat always went up fast and almost stalled when I went back to conventional. My glutes get hit hard with sumo, not the case with conventional either. If you love deadlifting - for some reason - do both... Like Jamal
@@Dr.WhetFarts deadlift is traditionally a back exercise.I dont get doing a variation of it to improve your legs.And sumo isnt even a great leg exercise.I mean better do Jefferson squats, barbell hack squat or wide stance squats.All of them engage the quad more than sumo.
What is a guide you recommend for people trying to decide between sumo and conventional based on their proportions/leverages?
The first thing you usually hear from coaches/experienced lifters is to pull sumo if it is geometrically impossible for you to hold a maximum of 90 degrees back angle while pulling conventional. That said, there are a bunch of really tall guys pulling conventional with a rounded back who seem to be doing ok.
Having struggled with this question myself, all I can say is try them both (starting with conventional if you are a novice lifter) and stick with the one that allows you to pull more weight and recover better.
yeah i pull conventional right now and have a meet in 4 weeks. After that, i was going to take a semi-extended off season and play around with sumo a bit just to see how it goes. Thanks for the reply
Aeklypsis yup taller people just can't sumo I still have no idea why. I can't sumo for shit either. Alot of the u93+ lifters tend to pull conventional
When you say 90 degrees, 90 degrees from where?
the angle your upper body forms with the vertical plane (the plane where the bar moves). It essentially means that your hips are higher than your shoulders, which is not uncommon for really tall people.
Hey Bryce, given the difference in ROM and muscle recruitment patterns, do you think sumo and conventional stances should be classified as separate lifts in competition?
theadnudcyk that's the most polite way of saying sumo is not a dead lift due to the shorter ROM I will give you props for that. Here's another question for you, should a close grip bench and a wide grip bench be classified as separate lifts? Your answer to this will be the answer to your question
The answer is yes.
No. I think the rules are what the rules are and the two stances are simply wider and narrower. Just like benching or squatting wide or narrow. It’s still very much a deadlift. A deadlift being defined as lifting the bar from the floor to full hip and knee extension.
I never said that sumo was not a deadlift; what I was insinuating was that given different movement patterns and muscle recruitment does it really make sense for them to be compared in competition? Different leverages lend themselves to the 2 stances; quad dominant lifters vs. posterior chain dominant lifters will intrinsically be better at one or the other. Your example of close vs wide grip bench makes an interesting point because if 2 people were comparing their 'bench strength' - chances are that they will both chose a wider than close grip bench (rather than 1 person doing a close grip and the other doing a wide grip). Similarly, if you yourself were comparing your own bench strength - I assume you wouldn't one day do a close grip (where you're slightly weaker) and then do wide grip the next day (and lift relatively more) and then say you've suddenly gotten stronger?
name checks out
I am short guy (1.68m) do you suggest me to have as primar exercise sumo deadlift or convetional (I have good numbers on both of them)?
Whatever one you feel more comfortable with
It's interesting that your conventional rom was exactly the same as big d's sumo rom. Surely in this situation it can't be classed as cheating if all you're doing by pulling sumo is bringing the distance you have to move the weight in line with other competitors. Besides, I've never seen someone who benches with a wide grip be called a cheat because they're reducing their rom
How does one find their leverages and figure out which style is optimal?
Could someone please explain to me the difference between a "stiff bar" and a "deadlift bar" and how a deadlift bar reduces range of motion? Never knew there different types of bars like this.
Deadlift bars are generally longer, whippier and have no center knurling.
Whats harder? A wide grip pullup or a shoulder grip pullup?
Is there any benefit with sumo stance for general strength? In other words, should you train both?
The thing is, Strength is specific. If you’re asking if you should train sumo as a conventional puller? Potentially? It’s likely going to carry over less than a more conventional type movement, but if you’re not a competitive powerlifter, why not give it a try and see how you find it?
Which DL form is better for an average person who just wants to get stronger ?
Honestly, it's not difficult to figure out the context of what people mean when they say that sumo is cheating; they're talking about how strength is regarded in the real world.
If you need to pick up an engine block or a chunk of concrete and move it somewhere, are you going to pick it up in a sumo position and waddle like a crab 20 meters across the shop? No, that would be the dumbest shit ever and you'll probably bust an abductor in the process. What would actually happen is that you would position yourself to get as much bend in the knees as possible and lift to a standing position so you can move the object in question, which is like a practical version of a conventional deadlift, since most heavy objects aren't bars.
Does range of motion actually matter? I think that measuring moment arms to the hip and back along the axes of their respective levers perpendicular to gravity in the start position (or wherever they're longest, if your knees drift back) would give you a much clearer picture of the differences for a sport of singles. We're not measuring mechanical work in powerlifting, we're measuring force output and torque.
This thought also sorta justifies the divide between powerlifting and strongman (also crossfit). If you're doing reps, range of motion matters a LOT, and strongman (also crossfit) frequently have max rep deadlifts as events. Powerlifters really shouldn't give a shit about ROM, since all that really matters is if you're producing enough force to keep the bar going at the mechanically weakest part of the range of motion, and sumo doesn't give you a favourable answer to that question.
I completely agree that a single measurement of N=2 lifters doesn’t give us even close to a full picture of anything really. The measurements were simply a curiosity for Dillon and I, and a decent talking point.
Senpai noticed me. :D Yeah, for sure an interesting start, especially given how close the percentage differences are. I'm afraid that just seeing ROM differences without any other analysis is more fuel for the "sumo is BS" crowd, though. :/
Nick Kastoris well, well, well.
Your comment has been reported. ROM is the end all and be all! Jk
Mr Cripples, in powerlifting, we measure a proxy for force output: pounds on a bar. Mechanical work matters a HUGE deal in training decisions, but the sport isn't about mechanical work. It's about pounds on a bar and whether or not you can move them within the constraints of the competitive movements. Distance is not a variable that you're scored on within the sport.
Would someone with longer legs compared to torso benefit from sumo?
I love it. The "sumo is cheating" crowd don't even lift, let's be honest.
Very articulate. Don’t go using all the big words you know at once.
Prob cause you can't pull sumo for shit. Am I right? You've tried and failed? Miserably?
what's with your homosexuality obsession? A little suspect if you ask me. Oh, and btw, I train both. So, all your failed attempts at sumo pulls have given you nightmares, ya? That's ok man, not everyone knows how to pull sumo. Don't beat yourself up.
You've gone and done it: used all the big words you know in one sentence. It's not a good look man. And I don't believe you deadlift weight, at all. But please! Please accept me, oh lord of the deadlift!
I don't care if you train for reps and pump lol I care if you can move weight, cause you're talking like you can. And you know Bryce has set records in both styles, ya? Have you set any records? I already know the answer to that....
Finally! Someone is talking in cm and not in inches... Liked & Subscribed!
Wtf I have the bell clicked but your videos aren’t showing up in my subscription list, I got lucky and stumbled upon this
Cheating = of course not
More efficient = yes
I like conventional for hypertrophy and sumo for powerlifting. After all its all about moving maximal weight and as Chris Duffin said "I outlift guys that are stronger than me all the time". This is just my two cents, I like both (not trying to be diplomatic its just my experience). Love the video!
Easier = yes
I just use the deadlift to put as much stress on my cns as I can and I pull more sumo so yeah also it uses alot of leg so I replace the squat with it. (Knee injuries)
Actually, I'd tend to say that sump benefits more to taller guys than shorter : taller dudes tend to have some long limbs, and being able to pull sumo allows to have so much better leverages such as lower hip hinge, and this multiplicates the advantage that is having long arms since they're not counteracted by the long legs
Can I do a full split and just hold the bar?
How often should you train deadlifts? Do you do sumo and conventional in the same week along with rack pulls from the knee in the same week? OR IS THIS TOO MUCH? 🤙 THANKS BRO, LOVE YOUR CONTENT 🤓
This is all my opinion but dont take advice just from me, im not that experienced. I think its very possible to deadlift 2x per week. I would do your main stance deadlift one day and then a variation another day. If you dont compete in powerlifting and want to raise both deadlifts relatively similar, then 1 week, do conventional on your main deadlift day with a sumo variation e.g sumo block pull, sumo defecit deadlift etc. Then the next week do your main deadlift day sumo and do a conventional variation, e.g block pull, defecit deadlift, rack pull, snatch grip deadlift. Also i would do your rack pulls from a few inches below the knee if your looking to build your deadlift specifically. Hope this helps, good luck (:
Often enough that you feel well-practiced and sharp with the movement. For some people, that's once every other week. For others it's 4 times per week or more. You can likely handle an infinite amount of frequency, but that needs to be tempered by volume and intensity. Doing your deadlift warmups up to 50% in singles six days per week shouldn't be a problem unless you're brutally strong. Doing 30 work sets at RPE 6+ weekly likely will be a problem, even if you're a lower-qualified lifter. Suggestion: try your plan out, see how you respond, adjust if necessary.
Thank you for using metric measurements!
4:54 it's even shorter since you didn't measure at a right angle
Am wondering what your respective PRs are in both conventional and sumo?
343kg conventional and 375kg sumo (raw) 390kg sumo (Equipped)
Personally deadlifting Sumo my rm was 250 kg Sumo and 240 kg conventional the difference is that im pulling only sumo. But 10 kg difference is not much. Sumo is for me personally the way to go i think its way safer for the lifter to lift sumo less injuries in my experience
It's two different lifts though, so not sure why people would compare them anyway. You don't compare conventional deadlift records with stiff legged deadlifts records, so why sumo and conventional?
If you were competing and you decided to pull stiff-legged, then you absolutely would be comparing the lifts. The difference is your training numbers vs max lifts in a meet. You wouldn’t consider your high bar PR equivalent with your low bar PR, but regardless of how you squat in a meet - it’s a squat.
@@calgarybarbell I see your point but I think if sumo is better (cheating) then why doesn’t everyone just deadlift sumo and then we can have a separate place for conventional I mean arching on bench makes sense, I’m talking about when powerlifters arch so much it pretty ridiculous when they arch so much it isn’t even really a rep but this just doesn’t make sense, if sumo is easier then pull sumo it’s not so bad to the point we’re it’s like not even a rep anymore as oppose to powerlifting bench’s
I've never tried sum deadlift before, but I feel like I would lose a lot of power through my legs if I had to stretch my legs that wide apart.
I mean looking at the difference of the ROM between conventional and sumo most think that they have to be stronger at sumo. But they‘re missing that they need way more stability in the sumo deadlift then in the conventional deadlift. I believe that‘s the main reason some are not stronger in sumo than conventional (including me). Sorry if my grammar is a bit off and commas are missing everywhere but I‘m german and commas in english are hard af
Cody Sawyers
I agree, and therefore they should be competed seperately.
Cody Sawyers totally on your side. Everyone is allowed to pull sumo therefore there are no disadvantages for anyone. Same thing like with knee sleeves, belt, wrist wraps. You don‘t have to use them but you can. It‘s out of question to differ them.
Marwin Demisch theres actually a study on EMG activation on sumo and conventional and the only difference is more quad activation.
Quick question Bryce: Do you know at what bodyweight and training age you pulled 237kg at Westerns 2012? I've convinced myself that if you were at a training age of 5 years and weighed 90kg then there's hope for me to also go above 300 one day as I just pulled 240. I'm kind of joking but I'm kind of not joking. (btw I'm aware it's not that simple... 300 is still the goal for me though)
Umm I would have been around 90kg yeah probably... training for a bit over a year seriously?
Hey Guys, nice vid on a still controversial topic.
I do Sumo, I am not great in Powerlifting, but i know a thing or two about mechanics.
If u just focus on lifting hight u r not geting the whole picture. u might ask a someone who can do physics or isn mechanical engineer and do another video considering the difference between "work" and "power". I dont want to go into detail but i think it can be another interessting followup-video for the upcoming hate against this pro-sumo-vid.
Furthermore u can consider the direction ur legs are pushing compared to conventional. Convy is more in line with gravity, sumo is less. U can feel the loss of force in the friction of your shoes to the ground (doesnt appear out of noware), which doesnt accure in convy.
just some nice things to think, talk and hate about :)
keep the work up guys
It's not about how high the weight is at the peak of the rep, it's about how sharp the angles of your joints are and the torque applied to them. That's why you can lift more if the bar is at a higher starting height. In sumo, the angles are way more obtuse and there is less torque being applied so they are easier. I'm not saying they should be banned just different category than conventional. I personally do sumo because I have a long torso but also long femurs and it's much more ergonomic. But, yes, they are easier
Spoke the truth.
I wish I could pull sumo! I have a wider foot position for a squat, which is far more biometrically beneficial. However, I have what is called osteo condroma (a large protruding bone growth) on my knee that sticks out rather far - right in line with my sumo-style deadlift r.o.m. (pulled 405 lb while ramping up to heavier lifts, on descent hit that bone with the bar, had to leave gym due to pain, and later massive bruising - imagine smoking your 'funny' bone with 405) I do not believe sumo to be cheating, at all. Simply an allowance of your body's rom and body mechanics. As long as the individual and pull the weight to full extension, in proper form, it's all good
Interested in how you'd feel about bench press where those ppl have that huge arch and barely move the bar a couple of inches if that. You can't tell me THATS not cheating...
Christopher Alvarez in DL bar plate width is the stopping factor. Can't put your feet past plates, right? In BP flexibility can be trained to achieve a sky high arch
Big D’s conventional pull is my height.
It's just a slightly different movement/option for people that might work for different builds. I know for sure that conventional is awkward as hell for me. Just can't reach my potential with that lifting technique.
I can't even physically get into conventional without lifting from blocks. My back is completely rounded at the start position with any weight. So sumo all the way.
Your conventional stance to to close you could increase your leg stance about an inch on each side and hand position an inch or two and that would make a big difference without having to sumo.
Steffi Cohen’s range of motion is like 20cm. The bar is almost at her knees on the floor.
Lol! Your closing remark was epic.
Yay for all the metric measurements. Imperial is a mystery to me.
Not a powerlifter here but one version looks like it uses your back and the other looks like a wide stance squat , isn’t that two different lifts?
Haha this was awesome! Now do low bar squat vs high bar.
Decreasing the ROM of a powerlift decreases the muscular involvement of the powerlift
Yes among many other things. But dont start arguing with these powerlifting junkies. You can see this guy doesn't have much longer in the game at this rate. He's already wearing himself down. Its his lower sciatic region now, but next will be his shoulder, etc...
I was arguing in favor of Sumo dumbass.
Mike Stoklasa You're the dumbass then.
Ethan Lewis Summo actually decreases range of motion. By spreading your legs apart like a stripper, youve already decreased the distance the bar has to travel by 3-4 inches
Good topic. I pull both styles. Although I do prefer conventional style.
"All in metric..." Love it!
Conventional is hard on the back and when some people start getting back issues they switch to Sumo. Some do Sumo since they think they won't get back issue and get the height leverage. I don't think IPF is gonna change their rule as they did for bench press recently.
What about hypertrophy. Which would be best?
Testing the bro sciences!👍
I think I'ma do conventional, deficit conventional (with and without bands), conventional off blocks (2"), sumo. And... ass-to-grass (ie. weightlifting) squats, 45 degree weighted hyperextensions, barbell rows, T-bar rows. That just about covers it all.
I feel u need some standard though like not sure how it works exactly but lets say u have a midget who legit has a 1 inch range of motion should it count ?
Thank you for using the metric system
Ehhh Mike in the background chillin! Watsup Mike!!
I want to preface this by saying that I agree with the core of your argument that sumo isn't "cheating and takes longer to master technically" and should be legal, especially on a stiff bar. However 2 data points does not a trend make and I think framing the discussion with such low hanging fruit wording like "is it cheating" takes away from the more nuanced observation that not all pulls are made equal, and people who point this out are often called haters. It definitely seems to make little difference on an Eleiko stiff bar which is stiffer and shorter, but imagine one of those 150-160lb guys we see pulling 6+ plates toes to plates on a deadlift bar. The range of motion after the slack is pulled is so small in that case (straps exaggerate this), that that sumo pull is in a different league entirely to the same guy pulling convy, especially since we know smaller guys almost always have to use a narrow convy stance, lengthening their convy ROM. In other words a 70kg guy pulling 260kg in that setup might struggle with 220 convy on a stiff bar. The difference in ROM there would be hooooge, and I'd like to see a measurement of the case described. TL:DR Yes sumo is and should be legal, especially on stiff bars, it's a much more technically demanding lift than convy, but i think the shorter/smaller you are the less you can say it's an equal lift to the convy. They're just different.
Oh we’re definitely not saying that our measurements mean anything. We know N=2 is not a statistically significant sample size. And the whole ‘is it cheating’ bit was just to open the conversation.
I just want to add that it really depends where are you stronger genetically. Somebody can actually be weaker on sumo how is that cheating....
Sumo is still pulling, but it can be argued to be a different discipline of it. It's quad and glute dominant, and especially for people with lower back issues it is a lot easier. IMO having a favorite is not a crime, one will feel better than the other. Training both should be feasible however.
I appreciate the usage of the metric system.
Sumo is to conventional as an ATG narrow-stance squat is to a wide-stance PL depth squat. Yeah, the distance the bar travels changes. Good point that it has nothing to do with "cheating."
It’s not even ROM, there’s just so much less torque on the lower back that it’s easier for most people. It’s cheating in Strongman and not cheating in powerlifting. The question is whether it ought to be allowed or not, in either sport. There is a similar debate about wether jerking instead of pushpressing or excessive hitching on the deadlift should be allowed in Strongman or not, and whether those things are “cheating”.
If sumo is unfair then so is having short femurs
My sumo is a little higher than my conventional but not much. The big difference is stiff bar vs. deadlift bar for me lol in my opinion using a deadlift bar is more of an advantage than pulling sumo haha at least for me anyway.
You should measure the distance from the floor to your hand height.
Both exercises are great. I pulled 30lb pr the first time ever trying sumo so i am probaby more built for it. I like conventional better though as i feel its a more impressive lift and more appealing to do and watch. That being said i'm not a powerlifter and a heavy pull is a heavy pull. If a dude is pulling 675 lbs sumo you can bet he's still pulling well over 500 conventional which is still impressive so....just the solution is...just lift!