Straying off the beaten, crushed, trampled, compacted, and bulldozed mainstream classical music path has been very rewarding for me. It's projects like these that, while foisting some duds on us, have also helped me discover a lot of personal favorites outside the core repertoire. At this point, I only break out a lot of the key warhorses every few years--2023? Time for some Beethoven!--but discovering composers like Atterberg, Bantock, Bax, Berwald, Boulanger, Coates--to name just a few of the ABC's--has been really rewarding.
I always found Siegfried Wagner's pseudo-Humperdink music pleasant enough to give it a listen now and then. Actually, the biggest positive that came out of this series for me was discovering the artwork of Heinrich Vogeler.
While I'm sure that there will be much humor (often dismissive) in this series, Mr. Hurwitz summed up his overall intention toward the the music that will be featured: "...because nobody cares, but WE DO." So I'm all in. Two thoughts: 1.) most of us are supporters of the "underdogs" in music 2.) I, for one, am thankful that the Cd explosion has allowed so much unknown music to be recorded for posterity, good, bad, or indifferent. So let's give it..at the very least... a hearing! We all might learn something (I know I will). LR
I must admit that I am tempted by this sort of thing. So far, the only work of Siegfried Wagner that I have in my collection is a group of songs. Recordings like these appeal to people who have heard the big, important works many times over and likely have multiple recordings of them. At some point, we start to wonder about the obscure music that has been forgotten, and we wonder what it is like. Nowadays, a lot of it gets recorded, so we can find out. Usually, there are good reasons for the obscurity of this music. Most often, it is pleasant enough, and the composers have perfectly adequate talent, but it lacks some intangible quality that makes the great works great. Sometimes, a hidden gem will emerge out of this sea of obscurity. When this happens, I wonder if the music is connecting with me but not with many others, or if an actual masterpiece was somehow overlooked for many years.
I think we need to be wary of judging works by a single recording. In a way, a performance that is "decent" rather than effective is worse that no recording at all, because it can lead to good works being dismissed.
I agree that Siegfried Wagner's operas as a whole are tough to listen to in their entirety and maintain interest. However, I find some of the short excerpts included in this box are very worthwhile. I'm personally a fan of the Act III Prelude to Herzog Wildfang and the Bruder Lustig excerpts (especially "Vision" and the Act III Prelude), all found on disc 3 of the set. For me finding these little gems is part of the reason I have always followed your advice (even before I knew you existed) to "Keep on listening!" Even the least important of these repertoire based projects have value, even if all we learn that the source material is complete and utter dreck. For me, the truly unimportant projects are when a performer records well known repertoire without adding anything new (or at least useful) to the discussion (Maazel's Philharmonia Mahler cycle is one that immediately comes to mind). Regardless of what direction this series takes, I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us in this important series of the unimportant.
Der Barenhauter isnt such a bad opera at all as long as you're not expecting papa W. But I collect obscure operas the way some people collect stray puppies and give them homes.
In Brazil, there is a writer who loves the operas of Siegfried Wagner, Leoncavallo, and Mascagni. He has written several books about the genre, and I bought several of them. I ended up exploring this area of famous and unsuccessful composers influenced by this writer. I wasted my time.
Idea for the next installment in this series...The Complete Works of Friedrich Nietzsche on Albany...a historical curiosity but perhaps not as bad as Hans von Bulow's assessment of his talent as a composer
You shouldn’t judge him too harshly, since most of his works seem to be from the time he was a teenager. He really loved his chromatic descents! Hmmm… is there a box set of the music of Jean Jacques Rousseau, or some other figure who is primarily known for other things?
Complete wind quintets of Reicha on CPO. Symphonies of Raff. COMPLETE music of Paganini on Dynamic. Complete piano music of Weber. So long ago I forget the label. Don't believe I ever heard all of it, wasn't moved by what I did.
@@jokemmerling4875nothing wrong at all. Like Dave, I just recognize that as much as I enjoy these wind pieces ( non quintet pieces are included as filler) nobody was going to write a piece in Gramophone or Fanfare how the world had been waiting for this project. Similarly, Raff is diverting enough but does anyone CARE? Citing the Weber was probably a cheap shot. It was years ago and I barely remember it. 😊
I wonder if Siegfried wrote any chamber music? Googling brings up nothing, but for little-known composers that doesn't always mean that nothing exists.
I prefer to remember him as the child who inspired Wagner to compose the Siegfried Idyll, a personal fave. From what I've heard of his music, I agree that Siegfried was mediocre at best and not worth a collection like this one.
I wish I could locate the exact quote (no doubt, someone here WILL), but John Culshaw mentioned "operas languishing in obscurity, which, with any luck, will stay there." (Exactly.)
Great, as usual; may I suggest a new series: “Unsung Masterpieces” (no pun intended). I nominate Leoncavallo’s La Boheme. I just listened to the recording on Orfeo conducted by Heinz Wallberg and was absolutely taken by its passion and beauty!
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes, I’ve been enjoying and learning from all of your videos and will revisit those as well - are you familiar with Leoncavallo’s La Boheme? it may be interesting to do a talk on the different approaches to this work and contrast it to Puccini’s - no?
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes! That’s right, I have the recording on Auvidis Valois conducted by Antonio Ros Marba but my favorite zarzuela is La Taberna Del Puerto by Pablo Sorozabal on the same label with Placido Domingo, Maria Bayo and Juan Pons, beautiful…
I love this series already, and haven't even heard this first instalment yet! This is going to be a series for the ages, I'm sure. I'm going to sit back, relax and let it wash over me. I'd be surprised if a lot of HIP stuff remained unmentioned. Also fully expecting the complete Haydn Baryton Trios - although, for Haydn completists, it is actually pretty much essential and even required collecting! Haydn at his least inspired wins over most 2nd tier composers any day, but the full set of these trios stretches things (including time itself).
He also made a series of 78 rpm recordings conducting his dad’s works, which even us historical recording nutjobs are unable to make a case for. I’ve never met anyone who was excited by them. Those could be a part of a “least important reissue projects” series, perhaps? The New York Times describes his podium work at a 1924 concert: “He let the music speak for itself.although, unfortunately. he did so at times to such an extent that the hearer had the undesirable sensation of "laissez faire”.
I actually like the rather turgid Prelude to Der Schmied von Marienburg, which has some fairly dorky harmonic sequences. Maybe there's a piano four hands transcription somewhere, I'd play it!
How about the complete works for harmonium by Siegfried Karg-Elert? Too mainstream? I listened to 'Sonnenflammen' and was (pleasantly) surprised how little it sounded like his Dad. From what I recall, rather brightly-coloured art- nouveau Mendelssohn. I'd rather listen to SW than Hans Pfitzner any day.
Although S Wagner's music sometimes refers musically to R Wagner's early works, S Wagner's music needs to be interpreted in a way that shows an understanding of the expressive world and musical structure of late romantic music such as Tchaikovsky and Mahler. Performances should be confident. The music needs to be kept in the repetoire.
They suppressed his symphony because they were oh so wagnerians, and then comes Mahler, the most wagnerian of all wagnerians apart from Wagner himself, and touches the heaven of fame basically on wagnerian sounding symphonies. Oh the irony.
I have never heard more than a quarter of an hour of poor Siegfried’s music. He really wanted to be an architect. Still, is this really one of the least important recording projects? They are apparently highly competent performances that benefit from good production values and will give pleasure to a few dozen devotees. To my mind, the least important recordings are bland performances of much-recorded repertoire and otiose remakes and live issues of work that fine artists already recorded satisfactorily in the studio the first time around.
I have heard S Wagner conducted by Hermann Abendroth who brings the music to life and makes it sound very atmospheric and confident. The CPO box is very pleasant and very well done but it is best to hear some of the operas such as die Heilige Linde and der Kobold. The latter is also on DVD. Sadly he is not performed much in Germany. The performance tradition has waned. There is much that is fine and lovely in his music. Mahler conducted him. If top conductors conducted S Wagner his music would catch on.
Straying off the beaten, crushed, trampled, compacted, and bulldozed mainstream classical music path has been very rewarding for me. It's projects like these that, while foisting some duds on us, have also helped me discover a lot of personal favorites outside the core repertoire. At this point, I only break out a lot of the key warhorses every few years--2023? Time for some Beethoven!--but discovering composers like Atterberg, Bantock, Bax, Berwald, Boulanger, Coates--to name just a few of the ABC's--has been really rewarding.
I always found Siegfried Wagner's pseudo-Humperdink music pleasant enough to give it a listen now and then. Actually, the biggest positive that came out of this series for me was discovering the artwork of Heinrich Vogeler.
And as if his personal struggles weren’t enough, now the poor man’s name is impossible to search on streaming platforms.
Maybe inverted commas will help? "Siegfried Wagner" as a phrase.
While I'm sure that there will be much humor (often dismissive) in this series, Mr. Hurwitz summed up his overall intention toward the the music that will be featured: "...because nobody cares, but WE DO." So I'm all in. Two thoughts: 1.) most of us are supporters of the "underdogs" in music 2.) I, for one, am thankful that the Cd explosion has allowed so much unknown music to be recorded for posterity, good, bad, or indifferent. So let's give it..at the very least... a hearing! We all might learn something (I know I will). LR
I must admit that I am tempted by this sort of thing. So far, the only work of Siegfried Wagner that I have in my collection is a group of songs. Recordings like these appeal to people who have heard the big, important works many times over and likely have multiple recordings of them. At some point, we start to wonder about the obscure music that has been forgotten, and we wonder what it is like. Nowadays, a lot of it gets recorded, so we can find out. Usually, there are good reasons for the obscurity of this music. Most often, it is pleasant enough, and the composers have perfectly adequate talent, but it lacks some intangible quality that makes the great works great. Sometimes, a hidden gem will emerge out of this sea of obscurity. When this happens, I wonder if the music is connecting with me but not with many others, or if an actual masterpiece was somehow overlooked for many years.
I think we need to be wary of judging works by a single recording. In a way, a performance that is "decent" rather than effective is worse that no recording at all, because it can lead to good works being dismissed.
I agree that Siegfried Wagner's operas as a whole are tough to listen to in their entirety and maintain interest. However, I find some of the short excerpts included in this box are very worthwhile. I'm personally a fan of the Act III Prelude to Herzog Wildfang and the Bruder Lustig excerpts (especially "Vision" and the Act III Prelude), all found on disc 3 of the set. For me finding these little gems is part of the reason I have always followed your advice (even before I knew you existed) to "Keep on listening!"
Even the least important of these repertoire based projects have value, even if all we learn that the source material is complete and utter dreck. For me, the truly unimportant projects are when a performer records well known repertoire without adding anything new (or at least useful) to the discussion (Maazel's Philharmonia Mahler cycle is one that immediately comes to mind). Regardless of what direction this series takes, I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us in this important series of the unimportant.
Based on the little I've heard (Sonnenflammen) he was a decent, listenable, craftsman-like 3rd-rate composer. Nothing to be ashamed of.
I feel exactly the same about his father’s operas.
Here is an idea for future parts of this series, Sorabji 100 Trancendental Studies on bis.
For incompletists only...
I loooooooove the concept of this series 😍🎶
My life is incomplete with the complete works of Richard Nanes.
I'm sure a box set will be forthcoming!
@@jdistler2 probably at the composer's expense
Can't even explain how much I love this channel !
This really had me in stitches. Thanks a lot.
He did know how to orchestrate, I own volume 1.
Well, this is going to be a great series and start with a banger!
Der Barenhauter isnt such a bad opera at all as long as you're not expecting papa W. But I collect obscure operas the way some people collect stray puppies and give them homes.
In Brazil, there is a writer who loves the operas of Siegfried Wagner, Leoncavallo, and Mascagni. He has written several books about the genre, and I bought several of them. I ended up exploring this area of famous and unsuccessful composers influenced by this writer. I wasted my time.
Which writer?
@@randau Lauro Machado Coelho
Idea for the next installment in this series...The Complete Works of Friedrich Nietzsche on Albany...a historical curiosity but perhaps not as bad as Hans von Bulow's assessment of his talent as a composer
You shouldn’t judge him too harshly, since most of his works seem to be from the time he was a teenager. He really loved his chromatic descents! Hmmm… is there a box set of the music of Jean Jacques Rousseau, or some other figure who is primarily known for other things?
A brilliant video
Spewed my coffee out with this!
As a child I loved the fairytale of the pancake. Didn't know that there is music inspired by it.
Complete wind quintets of Reicha on CPO.
Symphonies of Raff.
COMPLETE music of Paganini on Dynamic.
Complete piano music of Weber. So long ago I forget the label. Don't believe I ever heard all of it, wasn't moved by what I did.
@@jokemmerling4875nothing wrong at all.
Like Dave, I just recognize that as much as I enjoy these wind pieces ( non quintet pieces are included as filler) nobody was going to write a piece in Gramophone or Fanfare how the world had been waiting for this project. Similarly, Raff is diverting enough but does anyone CARE?
Citing the Weber was probably a cheap shot. It was years ago and I barely remember it. 😊
Is the Florence Foster Jenkins recording "The Glory of The Human Voice?" still available?
Or "The Anna Russell Album "?
P.D.Q. Bach?
I’m anticipating a Brilliant Classics Complete Kotzwara edition. Packaged with a noose tied around it, of course.
Pretty sure I owned that symphony disc for about five minutes and sold it off.
I wonder if Siegfried wrote any chamber music? Googling brings up nothing, but for little-known composers that doesn't always mean that nothing exists.
Yeah, I couldn't help myself. I bought the boxed set upon release.
I'm guessing a lot of cpo and naxos releases are going to be added to this list.
I prefer to remember him as the child who inspired Wagner to compose the Siegfried Idyll, a personal fave. From what I've heard of his music, I agree that Siegfried was mediocre at best and not worth a collection like this one.
Siegfried Wagner actually recorded the Siegfried Idyll.
@@bbailey7818 I've heard his LSO recording from the 1920's. Not bad, though many others have done it far better.
I’ll be interested to see what Shostakovich cycles/individual discs make this list besides Storgards.
I wish I could locate the exact quote (no doubt, someone here WILL), but John Culshaw mentioned "operas languishing in obscurity, which, with any luck, will stay there."
(Exactly.)
Great, as usual; may I suggest a new series: “Unsung Masterpieces” (no pun intended). I nominate Leoncavallo’s La Boheme. I just listened to the recording on Orfeo conducted by Heinz Wallberg and was absolutely taken by its passion and beauty!
There's already a huge playlist with hundred of videos that does just that--check it out "Great Neglected Composers and Works."
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes, I’ve been enjoying and learning from all of your videos and will revisit those as well - are you familiar with Leoncavallo’s La Boheme? it may be interesting to do a talk on the different approaches to this work and contrast it to Puccini’s - no?
@@ozoz9582 Maybe!
Let's not forget, there's also Bohemios by Vives--the Zarzuela. And Rent, the musical.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes! That’s right, I have the recording on Auvidis Valois conducted by Antonio Ros Marba but my favorite zarzuela is La Taberna Del Puerto by Pablo Sorozabal on the same label with Placido Domingo, Maria Bayo and Juan Pons, beautiful…
I love this series already, and haven't even heard this first instalment yet! This is going to be a series for the ages, I'm sure. I'm going to sit back, relax and let it wash over me.
I'd be surprised if a lot of HIP stuff remained unmentioned. Also fully expecting the complete Haydn Baryton Trios - although, for Haydn completists, it is actually pretty much essential and even required collecting! Haydn at his least inspired wins over most 2nd tier composers any day, but the full set of these trios stretches things (including time itself).
He also made a series of 78 rpm recordings conducting his dad’s works, which even us historical recording nutjobs are unable to make a case for. I’ve never met anyone who was excited by them. Those could be a part of a “least important reissue projects” series, perhaps? The New York Times describes his podium work at a 1924 concert: “He let the music speak for itself.although, unfortunately. he did so at times to such an extent that the hearer had the undesirable sensation of "laissez faire”.
I have🤣. Also the old Bayreuth singers thing...
I actually like the rather turgid Prelude to Der Schmied von Marienburg, which has some fairly dorky harmonic sequences. Maybe there's a piano four hands transcription somewhere, I'd play it!
You have four hands, Jed?
If he had another name his music might be accepted more.
‘Schwarzschwanenreich’ = catchy name 😂
How about the complete works for harmonium by Siegfried Karg-Elert? Too mainstream?
I listened to 'Sonnenflammen' and was (pleasantly) surprised how little it sounded like his Dad. From what I recall, rather brightly-coloured art- nouveau Mendelssohn. I'd rather listen to SW than Hans Pfitzner any day.
Me too, but it's not saying much.
Although S Wagner's music sometimes refers musically to R Wagner's early works, S Wagner's music needs to be interpreted in a way that shows an understanding of the expressive world and musical structure of late romantic music such as Tchaikovsky and Mahler. Performances should be confident. The music needs to be kept in the repetoire.
They suppressed his symphony because they were oh so wagnerians, and then comes Mahler, the most wagnerian of all wagnerians apart from Wagner himself, and touches the heaven of fame basically on wagnerian sounding symphonies. Oh the irony.
I have never heard more than a quarter of an hour of poor Siegfried’s music. He really wanted to be an architect. Still, is this really one of the least important recording projects? They are apparently highly competent performances that benefit from good production values and will give pleasure to a few dozen devotees. To my mind, the least important recordings are bland performances of much-recorded repertoire and otiose remakes and live issues of work that fine artists already recorded satisfactorily in the studio the first time around.
Happily it's my definition of "least important"" that governs what appears in this series, and not yours!
I have heard S Wagner conducted by Hermann Abendroth who brings the music to life and makes it sound very atmospheric and confident.
The CPO box is very pleasant and very well done but it is best to hear some of the operas such as die Heilige Linde and der Kobold. The latter is also on DVD.
Sadly he is not performed much in Germany. The performance tradition has waned. There is much that is fine and lovely in his music. Mahler conducted him. If top conductors conducted S Wagner his music would catch on.
A man who could produce Wieland Wagner can’t be that much of total failure. But then genius seems to appear every other generation.
Hilarious 😂