Intel vs AMD S2E3 Athlon Thunderbird 1400 vs Pentium 4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
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Man those Thunderbird Athlons were fantastic. The power requirements were definitely high but the performance was well worth it. Makes me also remember the Shuttle, FIC, and Tyan motherboards of that ERA. An absolutely wonderful video Phil!
Athlon thinking it's a power hog at 72 watts. And then 2021 comes along and the 12900k looks and laughs as it sips 330 watts.
On the flip side even AMDs 5950x with 16cores and 32 threads maxing out at 105 watts.
EPox, Soltek, Abit, Matsonic, QDI, DFI, iWill, Chaintech...
@@303machine ECS! >:(
The K7S5A with the SiS Chip was a gamechanger for affordable boards. Sadly, like many MBs, even much more expensive ones, it had horrible quality capacitors. You were almost guaranteed to have some fail if you used the board long enough.
And to think, so many people these days think, and even say that AMD are shit. I remember back in this era, going into computer shops and asking about an AMD system, and being told "You don't want one of them, they're unstable and not all your software will be compatible", to which I laughed and told them I'd just take my business elsewhere. I also remember vividly someone in a computer store trying to tell me that the Athlon was the "first CPU AMD had made, and they didn't know what they were doing", to which I laughed and told him I used to have an AMD Am386DX-40MHz, so he'd really made a fool of himself.
Those people werent making fools of themselves, they were being PAID by Intel to LIE to customers.
Fun fact: Intel still to this day hasnt paid ~$1.3B EU Antitrust fine, and keeps filling appeals while bribi^^^lobbying, latest one even went their way and it looks like they might wiggle their way out of it altogether :(
Maybe so, but I don't know if little PC stores in Melbourne Australia were getting money from Intel. My brother worked at the time for a little computer store in Melbourne, and they sold AMD and Intel systems - mainly selling AMD because they could sell them cheaper. But hey, my brother wasn't the boss, and I know a bit about the dodgy business practices Intel were using, and for all I know, it could well be the case that those particular stores didn't stock AMD so that they could purchase Intel stock cheaper. But I doubt they were getting paid to lie my friend. Maybe in some other places, but not in tiny little PC stores in less affluent areas of Melbourne, Australia...
I agree to a point. I'd say AMD started to lose its edge when the Core2 series came out. If you overclocked your AMD, you could best the equivalent Intel and save money on the CPU but then you really needed to spend extra on an after-market heatsink and a slightly better PSU to handle the load. Of course AMDs take more power than intel and overclocking them adds even more. Now you're paying extra in electricity. Gota factor that in to the cost which most people don't when they see the upfront costs of Intel vs. AMD. Ryzen has changed all of that.
People get paid to lie in retail all the time, no matter the place. Little lies like 'this product right here (with bigger store margin) is The Best!', or 'we dont stock X, they are crap, why dont you look at our Y on the shelf next to you'.
Now you might think it was only big manufacturers (Dell, HP, acer/emachines, compaq, toshiba, asus, sony, nec, fujitsu, hitachi, supermicro, gateway, pretty much every single tier one OEM at the time and then some got bribed/intimidated), but it extended to retail chains and distribution. Your mom and pop store might not be receiving cheques directly from Intel, but distributor will offer huge rebate for buying exclusively/predominantly Intel CPU/Board combos.
What is crazy Intel does it to this very day.
www.msi.com/Promotion/intel-ssd-bundle
www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/news/news.php?S_ID=282
and on the distributor front you are often quarterly allocated free "promotion material" (aka Intel SSD drives) to do as you please in exchange for filling quotas (designed to minimize AMD market share). Some distributors pass those "gifts" to their customers (small shops), others just sell them pocketing the change/rebating Intel product even deeper.
I am not one of those people. Years ago, I worked at the computer department of a store that I won't mention and when customers came by looking for a video card, I'd ask what they needed it for. We only had lower end card. If they said gaming, I'd ask what games and if they mentioned what ever the latest game was, I told them to look online to Newegg or Tiger Direct (Amazon wasn't a thing yet). Our management was fine with that. I also recommended the HPs we sold cause the mobos were made by ASUS.
I had the same Thunderbird cpu back then. Loved that little powerhouse. Played all my games with no sweat. Later upgraded my system to an AMD XP2800+ Barton, another kickbutt cpu.
i remember using pencil on one of these (on l1 or other gates) to unlock the multiplier and overclock... good times
With those l1 or l2 bridges or simply wires in socket you could do anything. Change FSB, change processor to mobile or server version, change vcore, that was golden times. So much control in user hands.
A nice thing about these 1400 Athlons is that they have an unlocked multiplier!
Used it several times to simulate lower-clocked Thunderbirds and that also opens up some very easy OC options.
Love the video! The Athlon T-Bird 1400 was one of my favorite processors right up there with the XP 2500+ Barton. Looks like you've got you're work cut out for you figuring out the quirks with the Athlons.
oh what a coincidence, i was gonna say the same thing.
but i think my 2500k took their cake because of its longevity. still, great cpus, it felt like they'd never get completely outdated.
+GraveUypo The 2500k is obsolete. But at the same time it's still powerful and better at overclocking than the 3570k. I think the good binned ones can go up to 4.4Ghz
I've overclocked for years. My first, accidentally, was running my Pentium 100MHz at 133MHz but it ran stable. (Gota watch those jumpers.) "Back in the day" overclocking got you what you needed that you couldn't afford. It also made a difference. I just don't see it that way anymore. It's fun and gives bragging rights, but in terms of real usage, if your 3.4GHz CPU, even if it is an old gen i5, is running at 100% utilization when gaming, something else is wrong.
Lothaire Cliquennois you mean the bad ones. mine is on the bad side and it's running 4.7ghz. my brother's can hit 5ghz pretty easy. To me if it runs stuff quickly it's not obsolete, and there's no game that has managed to put it on its knees yet. heck, in this clock speed it's faster than most stock 1st gen ryzen at gaming, depending on how well threaded the game is.
2500+ were very popular. Performance/price however was much better on 1700+ JIUHB and due to unlocked multiplier these were more suitable for some motherboards eg. on VIA chipset which could not hit 200MHz FSB. Friend of mine had 2500+ with VIA KT600 and I had 1700+ with nForce2 so we swapped CPU's (I had to also give him some small amount of money) and I ran 2500+ at slightly above 2.2GHz which was exactly the same clock I used 1700+ at. Performance difference due to 256kb additional L2 cache was not really noticeable but I was still happy with the exchange, especially since resell value of 2500+ was quite a bit higher than 1700+ due to these CPUs popularity. Friend was able to hit similar ~2.2GHz clocks with unlocked 1700+ albeit with slower FSB so for him 1700+ was actually much better CPU.
That Windows XP error sound always scares the crap out of me hahaha.
I had Athlon Thunderbird 1400, it ran hot as hell but i never had any issues with it. Funnily, no one here (in finland) talked about B/C versions, just the frequency.
Wow! The Thunderbird rig you put together is almost EXACTLY what I had back in 2001! My RAM was Mushkin brand, but had the same timings. I want to say I ended up getting 512mb of RAM, and I know I had a GeForce Asus video card with 64mb of RAM, but I can’t exactly remember which model. I’m sure if I looked thru photos, I’d recognize it. Oh, and I was running Windows 2000 Pro (still my favorite version of Windows, I do miss it :( )
I also remember how hot the system ran. I ended up getting a HUGE copper heat sink with a Noctua case fan as my CPU cooler. I also put copper sinks with fans on the north and south bridge chips, as well as heat spreaders on the RAM sticks, and a hard drive tray with fans to try to offer cooling on my HD, which was a PATA Seagate 512gb 7200rpm drive.
I want to see benchmarks of a PATA/IDE drive (7200rpm) from 2001 vs a SATA 7200rpm drive from 2001. In my personal use, I got faster results, with LESS read/write errors using my PATA drives. It was only after more revisions and advancements and upgrades were made to SATA that the speeds eventually equaled and later exceeded my PATA drive’s speeds. I want to see if this was possibly an isolated occurrence where I happened to just luck out with a abnormally fast drive or if it was the reality that despite SATA being pushed on the masses as the “new and better” technology, the older PATA technology was actually faster and performed better with less errors than SATA... So please, a test of speed and data integrity of PATA vs SATA from 2001 or so. And please, no SATA from a newer, improved revision as I want to see how they compared when SATA was introduced and PATA/IDE drives were being phased out almost immediately. I want to see if the general public was being given a downgrade overall without realizing it.
Id buy that amd cpu just for the name!
I would buy it just for that purple PCB. It looks so nice. And would put it into purple PCB motherboard. Sad to see purple gone. After Athlon 64 there weren't purple motherboards.
@@MJ-uk6lu I this i have some Elitegroup mobo ( purple ), Palit MX400 ( purple ) and Duron 1100 still working, looks nice but only looks you cant do any thing with it even Chrome wont start since the lack of MMX2 instruction.
@@plasheev I wonder if with Linux story would be the same. I wouldn't expect much from that setup, but maybe at least it could work.
So basically a athlon 1400 is better than a p4 1800, so also its better than a atom n455 that is comparable with a 1.6ghz p4.
Interesting that i've could have used my first pc from 2001 with only a gpu upgrade and would have better performance than my netbook around 2010...
the atoms were awful... amds netbook cpus like c-60 or e-350 were a much better choice
except Atom (Pinewiew and older) had memory bus capped
Brings back some great memories, i had a Athlon 1ghz overclocked to 1.4ghz on a innovotek water cooling system, even had a evap/swamp cooler setup for a while, but in the end i just externally mounted a large car radiator outside my workshop and had an heat exchanger between that and the water cooling loop kept things cool easily.
Here i am sitting on two 6600's and two 6600GT's.I tell you;its a very good feeling.I used Tbird back in the days to play Quake 3.
Power Supplies have certainly changed as systems moved off of the 5V rail being the primary one. I found a (used? looks brand new) Seasonic 400W PSU not too long ago for less than $20 in box. The compatible CPUs it lists on the box are from the P3 all the way up to the Pentium D and Athlon XP up to 64X2, also has a C2D/C2Q compatible sticker stuck on. It also has 30A on the +5V rail. Meanwhile the 1000W Seasonic 80 Plus Platinum (modular) PSU in my main system is rated for 25V on the +5V rail.
Phil, you mention Quake III @4:50 but show Quake II test results. Whoopsie? :P
Bugger :( Slipped through QA it seems, despite watching the vid several times :D
PhilsComputerLab Happens to the best of us :)
Times for the parts of the video in the description is appreciated. As always, an excellent video from you Phil.
Whoa I thought I was the only one with the nvidia 6600 256mb ddr card for agp. Mine is shelved in anti static bag. Works as great as the first day I bought it. Excellent series this keep up the good work.
That Thunderbird kept me quite warm in winter. This thing ran hot on inefficient coolers.
The power output of the athlon thunderbird positively looks modest today. 13900k can crank out 300W if you cool it well (if it gets too hot it stops boosting). Boost is not even time limited anymore, as long as you can cool it properly it will keep clocks and voltages boosted. At least it doesn't produce a lot of heat during idle or low load (e.g. during gaming you won't even use most cores).
Another nice video! :)
These Athlons are seriously scratching my retro-itch. I need to get me one, sooner rather than later. Never had an Athlon, I was deep into Intel-land back then.
I had a Thunderbird core Athlon. I bought the 1ghz version as they were all unlockable to 1.4 ghz and were functionally the same. It allowed DDR vs SDR or Rambus. It was AMDs first clear architecture win. And lasted all the way to Clawhammer (Athlon 64) and Athlon 64 x2. I had a K7S5A and had a modded bios that allowed both faster fsb and memory. It was a good time for price/performance in PC gaming.
More of a default, since intel was betting the farm on two losers. Intel expected to abandon X86 (!) with itanium and it's IA-64 instruction set; they thought it would be so fast, that they would just emulate X86 for legacy software and new software would all be IA-64. They also bet that they could extend Dennard scaling a couple of nodes and made a really forward looking processor that could scale to very high clock speeds. That was the netburst architecture; pipelined to reach 8 GHz by 2003, as was an early prediction they made. The problem was that the future they were looking forward to didn't materialize; Dennard scaling died; they couldn't clock it that fast without it drawing 300W and requiring liquid nitrogen and the relatively conventional design of the Athlon was the clear winner. Eventually after years of wandering in the desert, Intel sucked it up, dusted off the p6 lineage (pentium pro, pentium II, pentium III, pentium M...) in the form of some low power mobile chips; implemented AMDs rather simple extension of X86 to X64 and some new busses and made the core 2 architecture.
@@soylentgreenb Sounds about right.
A nice time to look back on. AMD were on the up and up. No longer just the cheaper alternative but a serious competitor. That started with the first generation of Athlon (K7) and continued on.. Consumers were the winners. Sounds like a cliche I know. But is still true!
If I recall I had an unlocked 1200c before upgrading to an unlocked 1333 & then a Barton based XP CPU. In their day they were amazing bang for buck vs Intel CPUs. I recall when I had my Athlon 64 4000 I had a game that required a dual core as its minimum requirement, but it ran fine on that Athlon 64 single core.
Hey Phil, it’s interesting to see here that the 1.4GHz Athlon Thunderbird is generally outperforming the 1.8GHz Willamette, especially since the Athlon XP 1800+ was a 1.53GHz part designed to compete with the P4 1.8. I wonder at what point the AMD naming convention went bad, since the faster P4 chips outperformed the Athlon XP counterparts? That would be an interesting video.
I remember once P4 started to outperform Athlon XP, Athlon64 appeared and it was a bomb. Imho, answer is much much later, once Core 2 came into play.
Later versions of the P4 got a faster FSB, letting them get ahead of the Athlon XP model names. When Athlon 64 came out, with HyperTransport in place of an FSB, it cleaned the P4's clock again. The Athlon 64 3000+, for example, was substantially faster than the Athlon XP 3200+, despite having a 10% slower clock speed.
It wasn't until Intel finally figured out that Netburst was a horrible dead end and decided to migrate their mobile architecture (itself a derivative of the Pentium III architecture) back to desktop (as Core 2) that AMD's massive IPC lead finally ended. They largely caught up with the Phenom II, but then Intel created Nehalem and later Sandy Bridge. AMD had by that point been well-committed to the Bulldozer path, which they ironically did because they thought Intel was going to be right about Netburst (i.e. reaching 10GHz).
A year after the first release of Bulldozer, they realized how dumb it was, and started work on Zen. Now with Zen 2, they are once again back in the lead when it comes to IPC, but still a tiny bit behind in gaming due to latency. How long will they hold the lead this time? My guess is at least three more years. After that, I expect a tight race and competitive pricing, which will benefit all of us.
The later Pentium 4 with Northwood core was a lot more faster than the old Willamette core. But the Athlon and Athlon XP still performed well.
Never had the classic Athlon, from K6-2 450 MHz, I bought on 1999 I went to Athlon XP 1900+ and GA-7DXR+ and Geforce 3 Ti 500 during Christmas of 2001. But during 2000 I've wanted badly the Slot A Athlon. Due to family financial issues (buying our home) my parents couldn't afford it back then. Since January I bought an Asus K7M (and the GA-7IXE for spare part) alongside the K7750MTR52B Athlon CPU and upgraded my DOS / Windows 9x basic build (K6-3+ ATZ @ 600 MHz, SY-5EMA+) with Voodoo 3 3000 AGP and classic SB Live! to K7 platform and I'm very happy! For 1998 - 2000 era it's the ultimate Windows 98 build. I've also bought and an Abit KT7 with Athlon 1000 bundled just to complete my collection.
I had exactly the same motherboard. Vias KT266A chipset were much better than the KT266 chipset and the Asus motherboard worked very well. First I had an Athlon Thunderbird 1200 MHz and then I upgraded to an Athlon XP 2000+ which gave a good performance improvement.
7:13 that noise from power supply you mentioned is normal if is from transformer inside of that PSU. i have a similar psu like this one but the model is atx-400pnf (yeah i know is old but still rocks today)and when i play some games (like Rocket League) it does make some strange noises but that noise is from transformer when is pushed to the limits, because i have a q9550 overclocked at 3.4 GHz and overvolted to 1.295 with GTX 1060( but i will upgrade the mb in future ASAP).
Well, this explains why my very first home built PC, even being "outdated" when built, was so fast. I had a 1GHz Thunderbird processor, 512MB of RAM and its last upgrade was to a Sapphire ATi Radeon 9800 Pro Atlantis card that was overclocked, and that machine was a beast. I later upgraded to 2.4GHz+ Pentium 4s, but AMD in that era, was stomping all over Intel. I know this, because my roommate was running AMD machines from the 900MHz AMD slot processors, up to a Athlon 64 x2 4200+ and regularly out pacing Intel stuff in most things. I do miss these days, I had a lot of fun.
i went some good 7 years exclusively on amd cpus because they were so much better then.
atlhon a slot a atlhon 700 up to an athlon x2 2.4 @ 3ghz (which was a mistake, intel had overtaken amd at this point pretty hard with the core2 series). loved every cpu i had then except the atlhon x2 which was garbage. it wasn't any better than my previous barton 2400+ 1.8@2.4ghz in most things. i only kept that system for like 4 months before upgrading to a core2duo e4500, and then a core2quad q6600 a couple months later.
Hi Phil, nice video yet again.
Amazing with the power supply, you always have to watch the 5volt rail, it is almost mandatory to get the chip spec from supplier or other site on the power draw and they voltages eg 3 - 5 -12 then check the sticker on the power supplier.
Funny how the cdrom motor was drawing just enough more 5v on the molex to max the power supply.
Some P4 can draw up to 70 watts ( luckily my XP machine the toshiba laptop Pentium M ( P4 cut down to P3 specs and M for mobile - laptops ) is a smaller 25watt and does not produce any of theP4 heat.
The same can happen when you have 2 or 3 IDE hard drives as they draw a decent amount of power as well - some machines has a slow bios that starts with no hdd, then waits say 10 second and activates the primary ide channel then waits about 10 seconds and activates the secondary channel then check devises - it basically staggered the initial power draw
Interesting so see what the more intense video card draw, we now the bus has a max of ??? 35 to 50 watts in P4 and what voltages are on what pins as some AGP got as low as 1.5V, but they also have 3.5 , 5 & 12 depending on the mother board the 1.5 - 5 would come of the 5v rails as well... Hmmm i wonder is anyone used a 12v DC rail to draw power and reduce to 5v to run say molex items and leave the power supply native 5v for the mother board and cpu
Starting with Win95 devices were early plug and play better know as plug and pray.
After much frustration for about 3 months a friend at work suggest the best method.
Rip everything out and just leave only the video card ( in the Win95 days before built in video on mother boards ). You then install windows and restart it several time and see if everything works.
Then add the next card - only 1. Then install drivers and reboot a few times or use it for a hour to make sure it is correct.
Only then go to the next card and pray the drivers work and it does not conflict, if it did try and change resources or swap slots- easy when they were all ISA or PCI or mixed, no big rush for the 4x or 16x slots back then.
With the Direct X, i tend to use the "sweet spot" which is direct X 9c, but you need to be careful, there are 2 versions, the early version is Win98 based and the later version is XP base, i believe the gap in years between early and late is a3 to 4 years. Other than that in XP and newer i just install the direct X version that is max for the video card
Great vision about AMD era!
How about a K6-2 vs Pentium MMX at the same frequency and fsb ?
I have made a Windows 98 PC I used a ASRock K7VT6 motherbord with a Athlon XP 3200+ 400 MHz FSB to match the RAM. it has got a 6600 GT 128 MB.
I use SATA for my drives. It works very nice under Windows 98, but to get it to work I had to install Windows on the SATA as IDE then install the SATA drivers and change it back all done in the BIOS.
I was working on computer store at that time. I usually recommend AMD as "best bang for the buck", but most of the customers wanted a "real" pentium 🙄
Interesting to hear that newer Service Packs perform worse, would be interesting which SP is best for period correct CPU's
Great dedication and consistency on your part to do this video. You might want to do this with modern parts also and this channel might take off :) Great job as always
Thanks man! I actually do stuff with more modern stuff :) Small form factor PCs, cheaper graphics cards, cases and more. But my heart is really with the retro stuff. Re-living the golden days and playing around with parts that I couldn't afford back in the day and wish I could have had :D
When I worked in a pc shop in london in the 2000s when intel were releasing the p4 on teh lga775 I still promoted the AMD x64 systems and even sempron over celeron systems. For cost to performance, and better thermals.
Athlons in this era were great for consumers doing home builds on a budget, and that was rightfully where they had most of their popularity.
Where Athlons lost their appeal was with large customers building fleets of PCs that needed to be supported in an office setting, manufacturers who had to give technical support to non-technical users, or anybody building a professional workstation or server. In these situations, the cost of parts to build the machine wasn't the whole calculation.
Part of the problem was momentum - reputable manufacturers already had established relationships with Intel and knew how to make an Intel system bulletproof. Switching to AMD would be a messy, disruptive exercise and large enterprises prefer to avoid unnecessary risks. Coming off the K6, AMD wasn't going to win the confidence of big clients overnight.
Intel's RAMBUS debacle certainly helped prod them to reconsider, though. :)
AMD's main technical issue was the inferior quality of their available chipsets. VIA was by far the most readily available, high capacity supplier of chipsets for AMD, and their chipsets had serious problems. Enthusiasts could deal with it, but the above types of clients generally couldn't or didn't want to.
This wasn't really mitigated until nVidia started selling nForce chipsets, but that didn't happen until halfway through the life of the Athlon, when Intel's RAMBUS debacle was over with, and I'd still hesitate to rank nForce as highly as Intel's DDR chipsets. I also don't know how much capacity nVidia had to manufacture nForce1/2 chipsets on a sufficiently large scale to gain the confidence of Dell/HP/etc. The vast majority of Athlon chipsets were VIA, and their quality was unacceptable outside of the DIY market.
A bit prior to nForce, AMD did make the AMD761 DDR chipset, but they made it clear they didn't want to be in the chipset business and were only offering this as a stopgap until the DDR chipsets from 3rd party vendors caught up. Not wanting to compete with their chipset partners, AMD kept it's price high and showed no interest in producing any successor. A high priced product with no roadmap isn't going to convince corporate glaciers to switch teams.
The low cost positioning of AMD also led to a plethora of cheaply made motherboards for that platform. This didn't help AMD's reputation any. If you had an unstable motherboard with a VIA chipset, cheap capacitors, marginal VRM construction that could barely power a Thunderbird, and a cheap PSU thrown in on top, the resulting instabilities would make people think AMD was to blame.
For servers, AMD Athlon systems were not suitable. I looked into this a few years ago when I was building a home file server. There are no motherboards for 32-bit Athlons that have the I/O capabilities you want in a server. Plenty for P3-S Tualatin and P4 Xeon however. I ended up building an Opteron system, because this is an issue AMD targeted and solved with the launch of their 64-bit chips (leapfrogging Intel at that point).
Even some desktop P4 systems can make better servers than any Athlon-32 can. An i865 with onboard GbE for example had decent file serving performance, IIRC more than double of what I could get from an nForce2 machine running the same tests. This is due to the I/O features of the chipsets involved. The nForce2 was fantastic for a desktop PC, but it fails hard in file serving.
High end workstations? In that situation you're probably running specialized software with highly optimized code. The P4 responds very well to optimized code, even moreso if the developers utilize SSE1/SSE2. In that situation it will surely outperform the Athlon. Developers of this type of software had no compelling motive to start rewriting their code for Athlon at this stage, and even if they did, I have doubts that they'd beat a well optimized P4 code path.
The Athlon is less sensitive to optimization, which gave it an advantage in many cases, but that's not the situation with high end applications.
The Athlon CPUs themselves are excellent, and they were IMO the best option for enthusiasts. Although Athlon's popularity was restrained to DIY and small shop builds, it's visible successes helped to thaw the resistance of potential large clients, so they were more willing to make a leap when they thought the time was right. When AMD launched the K8, and chipsets had also improved, they were then able to make serious inroads against Intel. I remember being in a CompUSA around that time and being impressed to see that a majority of the prebuilt computers they were selling were K8s, not P4s. It was quite a breakthrough, and the 32-bit Athlon helped set them up for that.
8:36 always turn on "PnP OS Installed" in the BIOS, it drastically reduces this sort of problem in my experience. no clue why it's usually turned off by default.
As always SUPER! But so sorry that Intel with it Willamette was so much behind.... I was dreaming about Pentium 4 in 2001, because my cousin had 1.5 MHz with GF2 MX, and me with my P3 450 and VooDoo4500.....
I love your videos Phil. I would not have a clue what to do with half the old pc parts stored in my spare room with out you.
for my 2k build, I use an athlon 1200C @1333 (not even tried raising the fsb ;) ) together with a V5, cool build
awesome videos as always i didnt had so much money and a nvidia 6200 hold me up well until the 2000s i remember playing the nfs series all the way up to nfs carbon,delta force and all those without problems =) that is until i discovered that gta san andreas was a bit much for it and got a 8 series card hahaha
Great vídeo. Waiting for Athlon XP and maybe Duron and why not Sempron.
I had the Athlon 1.4 and a 6600GT and was always happy with that setup. Never had any issues with it. I can't believe it is almost 18 years ago when I had it. I remember that thing was like a rocket ship compared to my 450 K6-2 that I upgraded from.
It certainly felt like a great combo when I briefly used it :) Just a a shame that out of my 4 or 5 AGP 6600 GT cards, only this one is working :(
To economize the AMD, you need a program called S2kctl - but the Athlon power saving "stop grant" mode is pretty brutal - it results in cache voiding, and a pretty heavy load jump when it kicks back in.
Exist some tests with SDRAM? PCWorld put some challenging benchmarks from Athlon Thunderbird against P4 starting 2001.
I had duron 800 + Tnt2 ultra then Geforce 256 in that era. Good times
One thing i wondered, and i know this is is Thunderbird vs Pentium 4, but I still wonder why Pentium 3 was so short lived.
Pentium III was just a warmed over pentium II with SSE. The P6 architecture lasted from pentium pro to pentium 3, went into hibernation, got resurrected into a new mobile architecture and was eventually extended into the core architecture.
iam missing operation flashpoint cold war crisis with the resistance addon in your games list. I think it would fit perfectly.
Got pulled from GOG, so yea, not happening until they get their act together.
First PC I built was with the Thunderbird 850MHz
But can the Athlon 1400 beat some of those P4 Northwood processors?
And for the Intel vs AMD series, I would also like to see comparisons between Pentium D (which is basically two of Prescott P4s dies glued together) and the Athlon 64 X2, which became a performance competition between 2005-2006 until the Core 2 processors released.
So the Northwoods didn't launch until early 2002, by which AMD already had launched the Athlon XP. But that will be interesting to see how this plays out :D But there is other stuff I want to look at, like different chipsets and whatnot.
Well to be honest, The K7 Athlons were designed to compete against the P3s but still had much better ipc than the P4s. The Athlon 64 K8 was technically the direct competitor to the P4 but litterally mopped the floor with the P4. If I remember correctly the Thunderbirds had half the amount of cache of the Athlons.
they can beat northwood celerons. P4 probably not.
I can just say as an avid athlon user back then , starting with 1400 and moving all the way to the barton 2500+ mobile for overclocking... i did get 2.5ghz on air out of it but stable was 2.3... the northwood 2.8C was a better chip , never been an intel fan as i like to work my wallet and time overclocking to match, byt again the northwoods were superior. i have one now that i have never put on a board , but will someday. HT and all that cache and instruction set was just better..... although it never got me killed in CS back then :)
I think I had that FPS psu , it could not cope wtih ati 9800 pro or nvidia 5700xt but did older cards just fine .You could think you killed it with a blank screen but worled fine on lower end cards afterwards -like mx440 ,tnt ,mx 200 but I had floppy ,cd-rom ,maxed out memory
Back in this day, AMD easily had the better *cpu*, but chipset options were still terrible. It wasn't until nvidia came along with nforce, that things finally turned around.
Via KT266A chipsets worked pretty good. But the KT266 was not so good.
I broke the silicon on a 2500xp, just the tiniest chip on the corner but it killed it. (that chip was a great overclocker to) it is kinda neat to see the exposed die.
Makes you wonder how the AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1400 would fair against the Pentium3 1.4ghz Tualatin cpu.
They are pretty even, though the Pentium 3 consumes far less power.
I had a TB 1200 at the time but could overclock it a bit bit conecting the L1 (ou L2) bridges in the die.
Please continue season 2!
I think that sp2 is better for older systems (it's just faster, as i remember).
Eli van der Geest I confirm that, my Compaq Evo with P4-M slowed down muuuch after installing SP3 in place of RTM XP
I need SP3 for my USB wireless adapter. SP2 doesn't have the protocols or something. But anyway, I looked into Vanilla vs SP1, SP2 and SP3 a while ago, but found absolutely no difference, so I never published the video as there was really nothing to show.
You never find any difference between fresh installed systems, give them a 3 months usage as a main PC and you see. The only sad thing i remember until SP2 system never lived longer than 6 months without need to be reinstalled, SP2 extended this period up to 2 years.
St the time I upgraded my Duron 700mhz to a thunderbird 1.2ghz, fastest cpu my motherboard could take. But damn the thing ran oven hot! It would crash when gaming, necessitating the purchase of a full copper Zalman cooler and 92mm fan to be at all stable 🙈😆
I have Athlon 1333C. It is too hot for my liking. I'd go with Athlon XP because SSE and less heat but my motherboard does not support it.
The third computer I ever built had an athlon 1.4 and I accidently powered on the system with no heatsink and it went up in smoke instantly. :((((
I had a similar video driver issue... but with a 6200-128mb(128bit) PCIe video card in a Dell Inpsiron 530 desktop tower upgraded with an e8600 cpu and 3gb pc2 mem running XP to play WIN98 and early XP games and decided to use v340.52 driver and the game, forsaken refused load correctly while all other games installed, worked just fine, then i went with the most earliest driver(v66.93) that started to support the 6200 and up cards and low and behold, forsaken worked like a charm, and it didnt harm the other games.
Nice, that's close to the driver I used!
I had an amd 1400 back then, it was a good performer for me also
My first Pentium 4 was the Williamette 1.8 GHz one. Not bad but not super good either. It was overkill for Windows 98 but I loved running it on 98 better than on Windows XP when I switched the OS.
I had this BEAST
It's the worst kept secret that at the time AMD is a lot better bang on your buck for Gaming. General consensus at the time is AMD for gaming and Intel for working (like today, many production app like Photoshop and CAD somehow work better on Intel).
One thing I hate about Thunderbird though is the heat that it generate. I end up open my side-plate all the time during summer. Anyway, this is the era that really jump start AMD. Without this and several chain of event later, Intel and Nvidia will monopoly almost everything.
How about Athlon 1400 vs Intel PIII1400
Great job once again!! Keep going. Do you have some power draw results with the MSI mainboard? Are the equal compaired to the ASUS A7V266-E? After your last episode i tested an Athlon XP 1600+ on an Asrock K7VT2 had got around 100W too.
I do have some figures, I'll try to remember and post them tomorrow!
Finished the test with the Abit NF7-S. Used the XP 1600+ and a Duron 1100MHz (Morgan Core) and the power draw toggled between 65 and 70Watts. So there might a problem with the KT266(A) based boards.
Stratotank3r Ok here are the results I recorded a while ago. With the 1000C the Asus board draws 87/97/104 whereas the MSI K7T266 Pro2-RU is a bit leaner with 82/94/100.
The heat of those 1400mhz thunderbirds was ridiculous!
I've had no issues with that, but then it's Winter here in Australia and I use an open air test bench. The PSU issue worries me a lot more to be honest.
The coolers of that time struggled, to keep that beast just cool enough to be safe.
@@kjakobsen A 7000RPM Delta fan more than did the job.. And no complaints from deaf users. Intel came along later and said hold my beer. Here's Prescott :-)
Great Series Phil, Thanks for all the testing. Are you planning on using any Socket 462 motherboards that have the 12 volt connector for the CPU ? I was looking at a Gigabyte 7N400 Pro with the Nforce 2 chipset. A little expensive if you can find one.
Maybe, but at that performance level (XP 3200+), you might as well just go with the Athlon 64? A great platform and modern PSU friendly. I will have a nForce2 board soon, but it's from ECS :D
Thanks Phil
I use to have the GA-7N400PRo2 alongside with 2400+ XP and 3200+ XP from 2004 to 2010, many issues with nforce drivers after 2005... Also incompatibilities with the 6600 GT and later the 3850 AGP. I gifted to a friend of mine after I bought my Phenom II. Last weekend I created my Athlon 3200+ XP build with another chipset which it's superior for me. The VIA KT880 and the Asus A7V880 motherboard.
I bet that Athlon's idle power would drop to near-P4 levels under Win2K or XP. I seem to recall Win98 not letting Athlons idle properly back in the day.
I should look into that in a future video. Still wondering what this OEM Fujitsu Siemens motherboard did differently, as it had much lower power draw in Winodws 98.
Hey, phill, have you tried older XP service packs? I remember back then people complaining in forums that SP2 was a resource hog, SP3 managed to give back some processing power, but the sweet spot was SP1a. Never tested it myself, as I favour Windows 98 for my retro rigs and always kept the system up to date when XP was my main system due to security stuff, but it might be something worth looking into.
I need SP3 for wireless network.
Hi Phil I wish to ask for an advise. Is that a good idea to use P4 socket 478 3ghz 800 1mb cash 800fsb togethet with Radeon hd 3650 512mb on AGP? I dont wish to use to old graphics card to keep fps at 60 in more demanding games from that era like doom3...
It's worth a try, but a better fit is a X800 or 850 type card.
I recently got 2 Opteron 280 CPUs. So maybe make a video about AMD older server CPUs?
Hey Phil...how does the Athlon 1400 compare to the 1400 tualatin. Debating if I should replace my thunderbird 1400 with a 1400 tualatin I have as well. Running a voodoo 5 video card. Thoughts?
Tualatin 1.4 ghz 512 cache best.
@@justiny.1773 do you think I would see performance increase given I'm running a voodoo 5? At that point I'm guessing I'm GPU limited right?
Think both cpus are more then enough for the 5500 so yeah but the p3 Tualatin will consume far less power
Man, its so sad that my a7n8x-e deluxe mobo died. I lost all of my interest with retro pcs :/ You still make great videos anyway keep on what you doing :)
why not get another one? i got the same board + xp 3000+ cpu on ebay for 20 bucks
@@talvisota327 hey! future me here, i just bought a cheap motherboard with via chipset, a7v8x-x. It works fine!
@@mtunayucer great! enjoy your new retro system. what cpu do you have?
@@talvisota327 2500+ barton, but i have some stability issues. When i put the pc on load, after that load is turned down, the pc crashes, i guess its a power supply issue. These athlon xp stuff puts load on 5v line, which no new psus care about.
@@mtunayucer yeah thats why i use older PSUs for athlon xp / P3 stuff. i can recommend FSP as i never had any issues with them even though some of them are 20 years old. just make sure it has at least close to 30 A on the 5v rail... the higher the better. how much ampere does your current psu have on that rail?
Awsome video as Allways :) i have a old BlackDiamond PointofView PSU(5v 40A 3,3V 34A 12V v1 16A and 12V v2 17A) so i guess it can runn old demanding Mother board`s :D i still have my Aopen AEOLUS 6600 DV256 256 MB DDR AGP it played Doom3 quiet well :D
The Athlon Thunderbird was a laptop CPU wasn't it? I know it was socket 462 and could be used on a desktop and they were beasts at overclocking on a desktop.
It was a desktop CPU, the model in the video is a 70W CPU!
@@philscomputerlab I still have the Athlon 2800XP and it it still runs great, The kids use it for games. I had it overclocked to 2.6 GHz (200x13) with 3GBs of Adata DDR 400 (PC-3200) buffered RAM on a ABIT NF7-S2 for several years, but it was overvolted to 1.83V. I used an Asus Star Ice air cooler. I eventually lowered the clocks to further it's life span to 2.2 GHz which is still overclocked.
is it possible to hook up a voltage regulator to the 12V line in order to route power to the 5V? Will a Dc-Dc pico power supply solve the problem ? it will basically just use the 12V line.
Give it a go!
Great content!
my last Athlon (prior to Athlon XP) was the Thunderbird 1333Mhz, that thing ran so hot that I ended up getting a solid copper heatsink with a super high-speed fan that ran super loud, these days we have much better, quieter/more efficient coolers, but back then that was the best I could do.
That Thunderbird is a beast! I say pair it with the ATI card, keep it in the company :)
Yea that's a good idea. Thing is it's my only X800 series card vs I got a ton of GeForce 6 cards :)
Interesting video again.
Will there be an comparision between the B and C Version of the Thunderbird?
Not any time soon, as I don't have any of those and we will be moving onto other stuff.
Ok.
No Athlon 1333 laying around in a box? Give it 100Mhz FSB and it will a 1000B. The 1400C could also do the job, but it will clock at 1050Mhz.
Nope, and no time either :D
Got one myself but the only thing I don't like about it is the power consumption and worse still the heat it dumps out which was a big issue with all those shitty boards from this era.
Man, the Pentium 4 generation just was not a good time for Intel.
why "welcome" but not "wellcome" on the start screen of WinXP ?
Amazing how an Athlon 1.4ghz outruns a P4 1.8ghz! I still contend AMD is the best bang for the buck. I have had them since the 386 era and have never been dissapointed. Running an 8 core AMD FX now.
Upgrade to Ryzen. You will be much happier.
can you try the athlon tbird to morethan 2ghz?
Good video.
Is it possible to do a P III 1400 Tualatin vs. Athlon 1400C. Head to head with identical memory? That could be really interesting.
About PSU's...
Be careful using your modern XFX 450W for a long run. You push this thing hard on the low volt rails.
When dealing with these old Athlons, an old school (which is cheap to purchase as new today) is a better fit. The reason is simple, that these are built to the older ATX standard. Powerfull 3,3 and 5V rails, but not so powefull 12V rail. Making these bad for modern highpower gaming systems, but great for retro Athlon's :)
Say a 400W with maybe just 16 amps (200W) on the 12V, is something that should work great. The remaining 200W watts combined on the low voltage rails is very good, and should run more efficient and less stressed (around 50% load). Modern PSU's are not really more efficient on these rails, than the older ones. They mainly focus on 12V rails.
Sounds like your old FSP is just having Coil-Whine, when crossloadind with the DVD drive. Coil-whine dosn't have to mean anything to worry about. I have had PSU's that coilwhined for years on certain occations/loads.
I was going to do that, but my time for these projects is limited, and setting up the Pentium III system for just a single test result isn't worth it at the moment I'm afraid.
For the PSU, we will be looking at ways around that soon :D
Thanks Phil, I was just going to ask about the PSU issue. If there's a good modern alternative, I'd love to know more about it. :)
Phil where is the Quake 3 result chart in this video? You talk about it, but it's missing. 😭
Yea it's an editing error :(
PhilsComputerLab can you maybe upload the chart picture and give me the URL? I'd love to see that. 10 years of Quake 3 on international level back in those days make me oh so interested in it 😊
Just wait for the next episode, it will have all the CPUs in it :)
The old Thunderbird is a Windows 98 CPU. Definitely not suitable for Windows XP due to lack of SSE. For Windows XP always get a Barton for a retro rig.
Wow that ram latency is almost as low as my kill count in PUBG. Those was the good ole' days.
i think it's still higher than your killcount. bazzziinga !
The ram latency is about the same today as it was back then, there's just more multiplexing so the memory module runs at higher clocks and latency measured in clocks is higher; but not measured in nanoseconds.
Imagine taking 8 sticks of DDR400 CL2, you read from each memory module in parallell and send it out sequentially over a bus at 3200 MHz; now it's CL16 because the clock frequency is much higher. That's DDR4; that's how it works; it's just that you hide all the memory chips and logic for it inside a single memory die.
Hey Phil, what's up with Ep.1 S.2? What was the reason you changed it to private?
I think that's the video which I used a song from AC/DC Thunderstruck and YT muted it I believe :(
@@philscomputerlab I imagined something like that happened.
Phil, allow me one personal question: do you originally come from a German speaking country? I noticed your accent and every time you pronounce "Wolfenstein".
@@drumsmoker731 Austria! But I moved to Australia...
@@philscomputerlab nice move, bro 👍.
Europe is changing for the worst. I would like to emigrate, too, but I can't leave my family & business for now. But until retirement I'll be gone (if not for good).
Cheers from Italy.
Great video lots of info
I forgot how ugly machines were back then. Machines are alot more aesthetically pleasing.
From which the AMD PHENOM II X6 is derived from.
what is that windows xp splash screen opening? I've not see that before. is this a custom thing? I would like to do it if so.
What time?
@@philscomputerlab 9:24 Guess I should have put the time in the first time =/
@@spirallight1337 Ahh that's the setup animation. You know see it when installing XP.
@@philscomputerlab I've never seen that, I have installed XP tons of times... odd. but right on for the response!
I remember that the Pentium 4 1.5 ghz was the fastest cpu in January of 2001.
it was never the fastest cpu. amd had the fastest cpus at the time. unless you mean clock speed rather than performance
Did you try the newer nVidia driver after installing service pack 4?
There is only so much I can test for one vid :D
PhilsComputerLab What? You have limits? I only asked out of curiosity. It was probably what I would have tried next, though I suspect it will not make a difference.
сейчас есть игры которые даже на xeon 54** не запускаются, к примеру assasin odyssey,может в будущем еще какие-нибудь появятся...
that is server ram, it would have heat syncs weather it ran hot or not
It does run hot! I measured it in a previous video :)