To clarify: I'm only upset at the way Stronghold is treating us the backers. I have no problem with the game being available and cheaper in retail. I want to be treated like a Backer and not an ATM which is how I feel after Stronghold's communication. The people sending death threats are off their rocker.
@@orbesteanu4tsa Won't be a next time. I'll never back a game from them again after this. This is also something they've never done before, so am I supposed "think a bit before" and assume every single time I back a game that they'll just treat you badly? If not, what do you want me to "think a bit before" about?
I have seen this complaint for years and I have a simple rule. If I am getting something extra that the retail edition doesn’t then it doesn’t bother me.
It felt like a bit of a slap in the face that we were not told about until mere hours before it was on Target shelves. I probably would’t have cared if there was communication but it felt like they were purposely deceiving us backers in order to not lose out on that kickstarter money.
As a comparison, I want to mention how Cora Quest handled their retail addition. Their communication throughout the process was great and I never felt de-valued as a backer due to their decision to go to retail.
Really shows how we hope business decision are handled. Sadly "it's just business," it frustrating to hear but rings true more often than not. Bravo to Dan and the team for setting such a good example. Cheers
I'm glad I'm getting the dual-layer boards. But I will definitely not back another Stronghold kickstarter project. I'm a bit of a ks addict, and so now I have to be extremely picky about projects I back because my apartment is overrun by board games. One HUGE difference between CMON/Marvel United and Stronghold/TM:AE was that CMON showed respect for their backers and allowed for refunds or 2-wave shipping. Stronghold deliberately deceived their backers and waited until the last minute to make sure that backers couldn't take advantage of their stated kickstarter refund policy. If they had informed customers at the close of the campaign (or even a couple weeks earlier), like CMON did, backers could've made an informed decision to refund their pledge and get the game at Target. Stronghold's disregard for their backers is reason enough for me to pass on their future games. Having said that, the awful, toxic comments that showed up in response to Stronghold's poor behavior was much worse. It just made me sick to see the hate that was spewed in the comment section. I immediately reported the behavior to kickstarter, and it was good to see the comments removed. I hope kickstarter actually bans users for those offenses, although it might be easy for someone to get around such a ban. Anyway, I appreciate the video!
I am a bit torn on this. But I got to say thanks for providing the perspective of "why be upset that someone else got a good deal, you got yours, dont be upset." I say be happy others are happy and that the medium as a whole is growing to the point that its not just Monopoly in Target / Walmart.
When I back a kickstarter I always ask myself if I think I will be happy paying what they ask for what they say they are delivering. Then I always add quite a few months to the time that they say it will be delivered, as most have always been late. If they deliver in a reasonable time what they say they will, I am content. My experience with Stronghold so far is that they have always delivered what they said they would and they are much closer to on time than most of my Kickstarter backs. I was firmly in the don't care group about the Target release, but I have changed to being positive now when I consider the effect on the hobby base.
Lots of good points here. I also backed Ares (and Turmoil and the Big Box), and I don't really care that there's a version of the game in Target. Honestly, as a gamer I wouldn't buy the Target version b/c of the cheap player boards. I think what's missing from this whole conversation is the "Stronghold's retail business plan" aspect. When I back a game, I don't expect my involvement should have anything more to do than the game itself. What the publisher does with the game or other corporate agreements they might make doesn't matter. Stronghold has a Target agreement? Good for them. Skybound has a B&N agreement? Good for them. I backed the Suburbia CE -- Bezier said there'd be some copies of the CE at retail, and that would be more expensive. Great. But later they decided to do a "2nd edition" with everything separate (with Trayz). Good for them. I didn't care that they made that business decision to do a 2nd edition without consulting backers. And yeah that's good for everyone because now more people can grab one of my favorite games in a new edition.
One major nuance that is overlooked when most are deciding to choose to back a project- does this project even need to be crowdfunded in the first place? Theres a good chance if the game is coming out in Target, before people who are supposed to be bringing it to life get it, that they did not need help creating the game to begin with. This can be particularly frustrating for new publishers, who actually need the help funding a project. Yet the consumer market is far less likely to back a first time creator unless they check all the boxes. People should learn to distinguish between the two in my opinion.
Some people are theorizing that the publisher needed the kickstarter money to finance a deal with Target, which does not pay in advance, but at delivery of the game boxes.
I joined the hobby only 5 years ago. I "only" backed 8 games so far, 5 being fulfilled by now. Getting the game later than retail or only insignificantly sooner is what I would normal based on my little experience on the topic. I learned that early on by being more of an observer than a backer. That is why I only support projects by small companies or newcomers who really do need the support and/or the publicity that come switch a Kickstarter campaign. I hope this serves as another big warning to famers across the world that makes them think, wether they should support companies like Stronghold or CMON that could easily produce, advertise and sell their games without the necessity to have a Kickstarter campaign.
Stronghold Games has zero business being on KS. I do not back their campaigns and will not do so. As far as this situation, this is a nothingburger. This happens more and more often and again this is the retail edition, not the KS edition. So vote with your wallets.
@@BoardGameCo Lol I realize I cannot tell anyone NOT to use KS. I do believe that for a company with such a strong retail presence, I don't believe they add anything to being on KS. I try to vote with my wallet and not support companies like this using KS.
@@npckse8508 For established publishers, KS acts as a market test, and can give an indication of popularity. Case in point: Stonemaier Games stopped using KS and instead set up their own preorder store. However, this was a partial reason why they underestimated the interest in Wingspan so it remained so in demand between first and second printing that second-hand copies sold for tons of money - none of which went to Stonemaier.
Just normally people pay in advance and with risk in KS because they can get some extra and better service, so people will think the same with Stronghold, Stronghold does not have the obligation to follow that, but it will make people who think so feel upset. You do not have the obligation to pay tips after dinner in restaurant, but if you did not do that, i think the waiter/waitress will be upset. And if you tell them you should not be upset because people does not have the obligation to pay tips, what will they think?
Good video, with a nicely balanced analysis of the situation. Any disappointment I have about this situation is about how SHG has approached communicating it, and you captured that really well. I see backing in a game as "investing" and, as an investor, I should get something preferential, either in timing or quality. In this case, I didn't even check on the Kickstarter until I got a shipping notice and was trying to figure out what would be showing up. So, obviously timing isn't a big concern for me. I'm still getting good QUALITY for my investment, in that my copy will be different than the store version, and I also backed it to get the Big Box Promos (I didn't back big box because I don't want a big box). So, from a value standpoint, I'm getting what I paid for, and getting the Big Box promos earlier than I could somewhere else.
Agreed. From a pure investment strategy, the access elsewhere does hurt the investment. But then again they never promised anything about timelines, so for me it's about the communication and that's it.
Really appreciated this thoughts. I understand passion for games, fomo, being part of a community about the hyped game of the month and stuff like that but you should remember one thing when things happen. You're not the world's center. You're one in a crowd. If you love a game you will have chance to play it enjoy it and share it. Sometimes even after waiting months or years (as often we can see even from creators like you.) It doesn't matter when you achieve it if you're doing it for love of the activity. It matters that you achieve it. Otherwise You're running just to being the first which talks about something and knows about something. It's just a social media hysteria. So if something is beautiful and bad things happens i'm sorry, i can feel the disappointment, you can choose and valuate for the future. But the beautiful thing will come and you will be happy anyway. This is the hobby, this is gaming, this is caring of yourself. You already have what you need to being happy in this hobby while waiting for the disappointing things to pass away. Thanks Alex, your thoughts sharing is valuable for the hobby and the community in my opinion.
Thanks for addressing this. I agree with your points. Stronghold’s lack of transparency is the root of the issue for me, not who got what first. They have still yet to address this, which makes this even worse. Due to their poor communications and dismissive attitude towards backers, I will no longer back their campaigns.
'...unfortunately most people will continue to back things and then complain afterwards' is probably the hardest working sentence in this whole 16 minute video. Truth. However CMON did the right thing (gave people a choice), whereas Stronghold didn't (no way to change now). Let's hope it will impact their next kickstarter... but I doubt it.
Yep, I'm always a fan of if you don't like something, do something about it. But all too often people are upset but will still continue to feed into it.
Great vid Alex, better communication would have helped stronghold here. But people do need to remember if they are backing a company that's has a retail presence they really need to be comfortable with the value of the exclusives they are getting in KS vs waiting.
How dare you be level headed about this. Clearly Stronghold is out to get us all. BRING OUT THE PITCHFORKS! I backed the Ares Expedition and was only slightly bummed I didn't get my copy before it hit Target #firstworldproblems. Still excited to get my copy and am excited to have storage cases for cubes and the dual layered player boards. I could've gotten it cheaper through Target, but oh well. I'll just be happy to have a copy and I'll move on with my life without threatening people. Crazy, I know.
Magistral talk! I belive there is a HUGE problem of miscomunication from Stronghold, but on the other hand if I get what was promised thats ok, bottom line next time I Will be really cautious next time Stronghold appears on KS. With time experiences on KS Will tell us which companies deserve to be Back, for example Burnt Island ran an Incredible campaing for Fall of The Mountain King, and In The Hall of The Mountain King was a solid campain as well, thats the way to tell bad companies from Incredible ones... Time Will tell...
I didn't back it because I knew something like this was going to happen, I don't know why people were surprised, really. Companies are using KS as a free loan system and people keep enabling them
A very quick clarification about Stronghold delivering late - actually, they are still delivering early, because the original delivery date in the campaign was September. They are delivering after Target, which I am sure sucks for North American backers (no Target in Europe, so it's all the same to us Europeans), and it should have been communicated much better. I completely agree with your thoughts, and I guess I will be put into the Stronghold defenders camp, but here are a few more thoughts on my side. It is very much possible that Stronghold saw the writing on the wall about rising shipping costs, so they decided to do something about it. Attaching their product to Target gives them a lot more opportunities to save on shipping costs, as well as make the game early, as I am sure Target has quite a few deals with Chinese manufacturers and can squeeze Stronghold in the production schedule. The result is that this project is neither delayed nor more money are asked from backers for shipping - something that quite a few other projects are currently doing. I've see a lot of complaints about other projects why the publishers didn't do something. Well, it seems Stronghold did, but it doesn't feel good to a lot of people. In the end, I do believe Stronghold could have handled this much better and they should have been much more transparent to backers. Is it the end of the world? No, and I think all this rage will eventually go away when people start playing the game. One final thought about Kickstarter exclusives - I think they harm developers/publishers and the sooner they go away, the better. Here is how things stand - someone will see a Kickstarter edition of a game at a friend and will go to their FLGS to get it. There, they will find that the retail version of the game doesn't have quite a few things. Normally, you would think that the FLGS will be the loser. Well, they won't, because they have hundreds, if not thousands of other games to offer that person, quite a few of them probably better. So in most cases than others, the FLGS will make their sale. However, the publisher will be the big loser. Thus, I think publishers should stop offering exclusives, for their own sake. It will be also a step towards resolving the FOMO issue that currently plagues Kickstarters. I don't believe exclusives are the only reason people back Kickstarter campaigns, so backers won't go away. Actually, some might, and these are usually the people who complain the most, so I'd say two birds with one stone :)
I didn't back it, but even if I had, I wouldn't really be upset by this. If the deal is that I get my Kickstarter fulfilled in 3 months from when the campaign closed but retail gets a lesser version first, I'd be "sign me up!" That's fantastic compared to usual Kickstarter fulfillment time, including the Terraforming Mars Big Box which took almost a year.
Great video... but I am in the same boat with you.. as long as I am getting what I pledged I'm fine with whatever they want to do to promote their game... I see it as a plus for the gaming community.
I have to say that working in logistics it is a bit crazy right now with the container shortage and how everything is compounding to make so many shipments delayed especially for small companies. Of course, in my opinion, the main issue here was that they were not more open with backers and waited too long to just come clean and let everyone know what could happen. If they had been more upfront I, myself would not have been upset. I have no problem with a retail version getting to the stores before my copy arrives at my door. Yeah it sucks, but in the end I was getting some special cards and upgraded items in my copy so I was glad to wait. I think this will be a great example for any future companies to make sure that they are as transparent as possible as early as possible.
As a backer, I don't feel bad for other backers. Stronghold has 3 company maxims that always hold true: 1) Their component quality is awful for a major publisher 2) Their prices will feel like gouging for the size/quality of the game 3) They don't care what you think. If any of those unsettle you, then you probably shouldn't back Stronghold kickstarters. I pre-ordered Ares, and accepted the value I paid for it - my gripes end when my game shows up as expected.
Thanks Alex. Another thought provoking video. It’s a strange one this. I backed it, I live in the UK, it makes no difference to me. Ares Expedition was my first Kickstarter, I went back and forward as to whether I should back and eventually went for it. My feelings now are the same they were before, the Kickstarter page is like a piece of cheese on a mousetrap. It looks so good, so tempting and I went for it, handed over my money. However unlike the poor mouse in the trap, I still get my game, and walk away with what I paid for. I don’t feel duped. However I do feel peeved that I was made to feel grateful for getting the game early, only to not get it before other people, I feel a bit stupid that I didn’t expect this. I think being made to feel that way is down to Stronghold and I don’t appreciate that. However the Isle of Cats Kickstarter just finished. I backed this and loved the campaign. Frank West did an amazing job. Now I have a comparison of how a Kickstarter could/should be and now I am a little wiser. Stronghold have a thing or two to learn about how you treat your backers. Happy Friday all!!
I have no dog in this race and I’m not from USA, so I’m not the best person to give opinions in this particular situation, but I absolutely agree with everything you said. Learn from experiences and mistakes made in the past, move on, be happy with what you have and be happy for others. Act accordingly from now on and don’t contribute to the toxicity that spawns from any issue. Be a positive influence and do your best to guide others and yourself in the future. This applies literally to everything in your life. The right approach and wise words from you, as always. The world needs more reasonable people like you, Alex. You’re the coolest.
Well said, Alex. There are definitely a few companies that I’m more wary of backing based on past experiences. I’m not one to boycott, but it will influence my valuation of the next Kickstarter project.
It depends on what you expect from Kickstarter board game projects. For myself, a very high priority is if I get the game before it is publicly available in my region. For me, it shows that the company values the money I gave them many months in advance. But that's me and if others feels differently that's ok. Personally, I will not back projects from stronghold games anymore, as I have done with other companies on Kickstarter already. I am not angry with them, I am disappointed, that's all. As always, very interesting and considerate topic in your video, Thank you.
I agree with you Alex, that we as board gamers need to reconsider maybe the whole Kickstarter thing. I for one really appreciate your videos. Although I don’t use them for resell value, I always do get a good feel whether the Kickstarter/Gamefound project is value for money. My number one consideration for backing is always do I like the game, then will it hit retail or not. If it does hit retail, what will be the Kickstarter exclusives. Your videos provide me with all that info, more so than on other channels. Lastly I will factor in shipping and tax, since living in the Netherlands means that that might be a dealbreaker as shipping and tax will sometimes double the price if no EU friendly shipping is included. In short, I will need to get the idea of getting a good deal. For that reason I did for instance back Everdell Complete Edition and Endless Winter. I did not back Stroganov because I did not think the Kickstarter exclusives justified the price and it will certainly come to retail and then I might pay less. So I can wait. For that same reason I chose not to back Ares expedition. Yes maybe the dual layered board are great, but the cost to getting it to the EU make waiting on retail more attractive.
For what it's worth, it was a little bit more than unstated. If you look in the FAQ question about Kickstarter pricing you will see them suggest that yes you could save money down the line in retail if you're willing to wait. Of course that implies the backers will be getting there first. Furthermore I think the real issue is just not giving people the information up front. I think a lot of people are just buying this because it's terraforming Mars and to complete their collection. I'm for one would have been perfectly fine picking it up for cheap at Target had I known because as has already been shown the promos will be cheaper on board game geek than in any strong hold pledge manager.
Good video, and I definitely agree that the actions and habits of we as kickstarter backers, as well as the assumptions we are making about campaigns and such, is something that definitely needs revisiting. Granted, I don't have a dog in this particular fight, not having backed the Ares Expedition, and I don't think I've backed anything from Stronghold... but there is a bit of an element of "What happened to the pride, as a backer, of being able to say I helped make this happen, that it wouldn't be what it is without my contribution"? If there was a list of all the backers that helped make the retail copy exist in the box, I don't think i would care near as much about a retail copy? That said, from the standpoint of not making the people that DID help make the game a reality... I feel like split shipment type setups should be come the norm and not the exception? Have THAT be the shipping price listed on your KS page, or if you add the option after the fact, subsidize it? There is no reason to hold off on retail till all the 'extras' that a business isnt even allowed to continue selling is done, but at the same time, it's real dissatisfying to be the reason something can exist, but then not be able to play it and enjoy it at the same time as people who didn't help it when it needed it, or when all the review videos are going up on youtube..... I dunno. it's a messy situation, and everyone will need to figure out their own metric for what to back, when to back, and how much they can afford to back and such. Just.... no death threats. Nothing is ever worth death threats.
I get exactly what you are saying. For me I am very forgiving of delays/accepting risks, future retail edition/v2. There are really only 3 things that really annoy me: given timelines/shipping costs you know you cannot meet including delaying telling us about delays until after a Kickstarter/pledge manger closes; prioritising another group over backers whilst being behind on promises to backers and making major changes to the goal posts without the option of a full refund. If I am getting what you promised me when you promised me then sell it where you like.
Agree 100%. Its been hard for me to resist FOMO, but $lowly I'm learning. With rising costs, I think its time to wait on KS games. What you'll save by NOT buying bad games will outweigh what you'll spend when you have to purchase OOP games on the aftermarket. I ALMOST backed Batman GCC for $400 b/c I wanted to like it so bad. Now, I hear the rules are so bad and a lot of people won't even play it. So glad I resisted on that one.
I get all of that but one simple fix... "Hey target, this is stronghold here, we're gonna have to push back launch by a month so that our loyal supporters get their games first" If they're not willing to do that and risk losing the contract then they need to be looking at target to fund their next project, not us.
Not defending Stronghold, but Is entirely possible it was out of their hands? the Kickstarter copies were subject to every games problems with freight and customs, but the retail version got bumped up because Target is a much larger company. It is entirely possible that they expected the Kickstarter version to go out first, but then the freight crisis hit delaying them. However the deal they had with Target for a certain date was fine because Target as a Large company has priority with its shipping, and by delaying the retail version it would break their contract with Target. I am only saying this because Many games that are delayed, are stated by the company to be out of their hands once the game starts distributing.
So I feel like what is getting missed with some of these deeper analysis videos is the fundamental idea that with kickstarter, when you pledge you are placing a Pre-order. Through this Pre-order you are also making an interest free loan to the company, providing feedback on project details, and taking on a share of project risk, but its the fact that it's a Pre-order that is important here. When you place a Pre-order with a company there is a reasonable expectation that they will make a good faith effort to fill your order first before other orders. It may not be in their terms and conditions but it shouldn't have to be. If a retail store or a pizza place did the same thing it would still be wrong. Sure backers get some freebies in exchange for making this Pre-order and taking on some risk, but the fundamental principle doesn't change.
I can get a publisher putting copies on sale at a convention before backers get their copies. If you're backing a game, the point is to bring the game into existence, not to pre-order it (getting a copy of the game is your benefit for backing), and not letting a company promote it at a GenCon or Origins or Speile runs counter to that idea. But running it out at a big box retailer ahead of backers getting copies -- especially when it's a well-established company like Stronghold -- feels like a bridge too far.
One thing I haven't seen in almost all of this discussion is the fact that Stronghold is actually a part of Indie Board and Cards. That company has had a history of being dismissive of their customers, going so far as to cancelling pledges of backers who bring up any complaints, no matter how valid they are. I think a lot of this probably originated from IBC, but Stronghold is the one taking the bullets.
This is all very simple: If Stronghold wanted their game to be a target exclusive first then it shouldn’t have been on kickstarter, it should have gone straight to retail like Jaws of the Lion If they insisted on doing a kickstarter then the game going to target first should have been clear right at the start on the KS page. The target contract would have been negotiated well before the kickstarter was launched. Anything else is knowingly deceitful. Don’t bite the hand that feeds.
@@BoardGameCo one of your rules for having a successful kickstarter was to not piss off your backers. This flies in the face of that. It is clear cut - Stronghold games chose to kick a beehive and then got stung. Before making this decision they knew what the consequences would be and they still went ahead with it. Therefore it is their fault. For context: I am not a backer and do not have a dog in the fight.
@@samhs101 I agree, but I also said specifically at that point, that the larger companies can get away with it. Enough people want terraforming Mars that they can do what they want.
@@BoardGameCo thumbs up and agreed good sir. They can do what they want but if they opt to head down paths like this they will get no sympathy for the fallout of their decisions. You reap what you sow.
@@samhs101 - I'm in the same bracket: Have not backed, Still on the fence if I'm ever going to get TM because it would be solo only for me.... but this makes me think: "enough fish in the pond... I'll leave this as long as possible" But more than anything it irks me that these big companies make people turn off KS as a whole. I, for one, am never backing any big company game on KS.
I don't care, honestly. I have plenty of games to keep me busy. I would honestly rather not support the platform of kickstarter, but it's the biggest board game platform.
Great video Alex, I'm in the boat of not caring very much if someone gets a retail verson before I do, or gets a slighly better deal. The only reason is the individual who gets the retail version will not have most of the extras that I will be getting for example the free KS expansion or promos, premium die, the playmat, the cosmetic expansion, "Box art" and so on....now what kills me is my friend and I back the same game and he gets his copy first and I can't rub it in! Haha (only kidding)
Whoa, hold the phone. I was not aware that you only got the dual layered player boards in the Kickstarter version. That seems like a pretty necessary feature considering the complaints the big brother version had and if that is true, then I guess I won't ever be picking this game up because that's a deal breaker for me.
9:11 - Not quite the one-to-one correlation. Your analogy should be "if you're happy with two lollipops" (the KS backer with all the extra stuff you get from KS), "but you're unhappy because someone else got one lollipop before you got yours" (retail purchasers) . . . that makes more sense. And THAT really puts things, and everyone, in perspective. Personally, I chose to pass on the KS.
The problem is that kickstarter backers paid there money 1 year in advance, people that purchase the game from target are getting it at the same time but for cheaper. The value proposition for the year earlier backer - the return they get for their 1 year investment - has decreased.
*their Also that's a complaint for the KS system, you can be jealous of people that got it a different and arguably more consumer-friendly way, but it should not be an issue for reasonable people.
Thing is, what they're really doing is using Kickstarter as a store front for board game enthusiasts and completionists, to basically fund a game for someone else. It's just so far from what Kickstarter and crowdfunding is supposed to be....a place where you can support projects that otherwise won't see the light of day without backer funding. And the nature of crowdfunding is that you get rewarded for that support. What Stronghold Games did (from a backer perspective) was basically "We need you to fund our production run for a deal we made with Target, and as a reward, we're putting you at the end of the line." And sure, even if Target paid some amount up front, they're basically using backer money to ship containers across the globe for someone else's benefit. Probably because Target will make up the bulk of their profits, compared to the 17K copies sold to backers. And the unique backer rewards simply doesn't justify the difference in pricing, when you also have to factor in shipping costs. So yeah, I understand why backers feel deceived. Is it really a big deal? In terms of what you're getting and when you're getting it, not really. The game will come, and I'm sure it'll be fun. But would you pay your mechanic up front to fix your car, ONLY so he could spend it on blinker fluid for his bulk of BMW customers, and put your repair job dead last? Is that really someone you would trust?
So glad I didnt back it. Once they said they aren't discounting with no promo, I was like. "I'll just wait for it to go to the store." Then they went back on promo items. By that time they lost me
Yeah the entire campaign wasn't run in a way that made it seem like they prioritized the backers. Running a company and a campaign isn't easy, I'm not here to give them a hard time But at the same time I do think people should back what makes sense and take into account anything and everything including pass history.
You said you would come back to the death threats but never did. I think for everyone who is going to address this issue, there needs to be a clear and unified statement throughout the board game community that no matter how poorly a company handles their board game business, death threats are NOT okay. I hope you will consider using your influence to help make the community safer and saner.
This is not their first rodeo. I think people who were surprised by this may not have researched enough into the past Kickstarter record of Indie Boards and Cards.
That whole "being satisfied with one lollipop until you realize someone else has two lollipops" I think also plays into peoples' psychology for always wanting projects to offer KS exclusives. They want it to be exclusive so no one else has a proverbial "second lollipop" unless they backed the KS. They want the retail version (others' version) to always be "less than" the KS version (their version), even though someone else's version has nothing to do with their version. "They" being a generalization, of course.
The problem wasn’t the fact that Target got their edition before the backers, but rather that SH secretly lied to us until the night before Target would sell in their stores. There’s evidence that SH had already started production during the campaign, because there would otherwise be no way that Target would have gotten their copies by June 20 with the world’s shortages on ships and corgo containers that’s happening since early of 2021. Here’s the lie. Start of campaign: Promised Sept delivery. Shortly after campaign: Oh, hey, it looks like we’re ahead of schedule (which they already knew that it was going to be ahead of schedule). Recent update: oh, we would have liked you have the game before June 20 because that was the “original” plan, but since covid, you’re not getting it before June 20. So it’s not the fact that Target is getting it sooner or cheaper, but rather that SH had already begun production during campaign and lied about delivery date, made us feel good by making it sound like we’re getting it sooner, then blamed covid for not getting it. It’s the lie that is the problem, not that Target gets it first.
This is why I will always advocate for this point - Before backing a Kickstarter, do EXTENSIVE research on the company making the product. Put more effort into looking into the company than into the game. Because you aren't really buying a product on Kickstarter, you are buying an "IOU" note, a promise. And there's nothing that states that they need to fulfill that promise, or fulfill it in the way that you desire. So always make sure you analyze the company's track record. This is the second Stronghold project with this franchise recently that has had some big missteps. A decent chunk of people were not happy with the big box based on the fact that the pieces were not as nice as they had wanted and there was no instructions on putting everything together in the box. And now this. I don't care about TM, but if you do, and you feel you got burned, stop backing their games. A situation similar (as in backers expectations were different to what was delivered) to this where it actually went well was with Road 2 Infamy games with Canvas. The original Kickstarter had this small card KS pack that was meant to be exclusive to that first KS. They ended up with many more than needed to fulfill. Instead of disposing of them, they wanted to put them as add ons in the expansion campaign. But they promised it would be exclusive to the first KS. So they asked the first backers for what they wanted and let them know that they would do whatever the consensus was. Now I much prefer Kickstarter exclusives to not be exclusive. Maybe for a cheaper price, or budled together, or a different model/something aesthetic about it. But making gameplay items exclusive annoys me, even when I'm part of the KS. But R2i realized that they promised this and they wanted to make sure they didn't simply lie. And the consensus ended up being that they would sell the KS pack as an add on, but all proceeds from that add on would go to charity. It took a little longer, but that communication quelled some potential tensions that could have arisen. And it was only like 10 or 15 cards. I do think that Stronghold should have had better communication. But they Unfortunately have the ability to do what they did. If you want to put in a complaint, do so, and then stop backing their games.
Personally, the only situation where I could see myself annoyed is if it was significantly earlier, like 6 months or more. But by then, there's probably a lot more issues then just that.. But, yeah, especially when you get better stuff, I don't care.
I had this with Garphill games…. Retail got their games first ….. so now I just buy their games via retail not KS . Its not personal just makes no sense to back them on KS -but I still buy their games.
I'd be pissed!! I didn't back it because I planned to get it at retail... And I fully expected it to get to retail LONG after KS backers got theirs. I was ok with getting it later because I knew I'd get it at a lower price. Getting it cheaper and first... Heck yeah for my choice NOT to back it.
Since Canada does not have a target, it ord not bother me one way or the other. TFM is consistently asked for to play. With Etsy I was able to get a great set of overlays for the boards. Through I have to admit the expansions never in my opinion added anything except for prelude. Have yet to try Turmoil.
Something similar happened to me with Nemesis, the reprint for the Lockdown campaign was shipped after retail received more stock (in my country at least). And it's even worse because my pledge cannot be shipped due to polish post lockdown (not Nemesis fault, but by the time it arrives it will have been sold at a similar price in retail for several months)
Nice vid! I wonder if we'll see this more in the future due to the fact of the shifting relationship of creators and backers as more larger companies use KS. I'm curious if because companies are shifting to using KS as more of a pre-order platform they view backers more as consumers than as investors which causes less transparency.
I agree. Its not about being angry. We will get the game eventually. However, between this and the sub par TM big box I received will just guarantee I never back another stronghold campaign again.
I am sure you will remind us next time Stronghold brings a kikstarter. And probably will make a difference because you will remind us that they don't care about us, and we will make a decision remembering... Thanks for being there
I'll never understand people who get so angry over non-important things. I have a scale when figuring out how long and how angry I should be, and that is how long will it matter to me, how long will it affect me, and how much does it affect me. People need perspective, and start getting angrier about those things that are affecting your entire life, such as health care, wages, cost of living, housing prices, and government corruption.
I agree that people shouldn't get death threat level angry over stuff like this but it's totally reasonable to be angry about the way Stronghold treated its backers here
It boils down to a lack of transparency. This Target deal was clearly in the works well before, and that’s the root of why people are mad IMO. We all found out literally right before it showed up on shelves. If they had said it early on, we all wouldn’t be here. And you’re right, they completely framed this in a way that lacked any sort of understanding of why it’s an issue.
One of the reasons I don't do Kickstarters. They have your money way in advance, almost always you end up paying more and on top of everything you pay shipping (very high btw).
Yup that timing thing sucks. Target exclusivity sucks BIGTIME for anyone that is not in the USA. Here in Canada that's not a 6 month delay, it's a 6 month delay until any FLGS can order it in + the wait for that delivery to arrive. No Target in Canada = No availability at all. This may be just a horrible annoyance at other times, but during the pandemic with restricted travel, closed borders and major shipping issues means I'll possibly see this game June 2022....
What I don’t understand, something I’ve not heard anyone talk about yet, and what would infuriate me as a backer is this question: why was SH able to meet their deadline and timeline of fulfillment for Target but not for backers? Is it really that much more complex to manufacture the KS version? Or did they prioritize limited resources and put the Target copies in the front of the manufacturing line? I think it’s something more like the second scenario.
Stronghold seems to have become a big player in the market. They do not need Kickstarter anymore. As a big player they can revert to partnerships with big players, but the Kickstarter days must be over.
I guess I'm one that just doesn't care. I have 4 kickstarters out right now that are months late. One of them nearly 7 months. I have not got out the pitchfork and torch yet.....but I am much more annoyed by the delays.. I will be happy to get one game on time or early this year.
Yep, I don't care enough, I understand why people are frustrated and I do think people should take it into account when they back things... But that's about it.
Thanks for publicly holding Stronghold Games accountable for their bad behavior. Hopefully, all the blow back they're receiving will influence them to treat their backers better in the future.
Yep, I think they had a very hot game and didn't overly concern themselves with the backer base. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned, But it does mean people should take that into account on future campaigns
The FOMO gives a sense of entitlement and risk, so any reward or loss is met with an even more intense emotional response than you'd experience otherwise.
Oh wow I didnt know about this at all pretty well lets just say I can think of some not so nice words (I dont live in the US nor backed this) but apparently they told people hours before it was in the stores... meaning they knew about this for a long ass time and trying to milk the last drop until the last second. If this is true they deserve whatever they get as a company being anti consumer.
Pretty much share your feelings regarding KSing and expanding the hobby into broader markets. As far as timing, I got it in august - first KS to arrive earlier than initial estimate 👍. But I will, and have, offered feedback regarding the campaigns appalling communications. Posted a rather scathing comment calling out the campaign manger over lack of updates. As my comment was posted between two of theirs, I assume that the aggressively dismissive tone of the latest (as of 1st sept) update (posted about 30 mins after my comment) was a response to my observations. I paraphrase: “Don’t expect another update til we think everything is delivered! AND this campaign has been HARD, so we might increase shipping or not ship it difficult markets.” The implication is ‘we’ve got too much business, and can’t cost shipping correctly.’ Sounds to me awfully like a completely disorganised diva that complains how much success they have. Love you Stronghold, but someone there seems to have a mindset that excludes humility or contrition - just don’t let that person handle (potentially edgy) communications with (potentially edgy) backers whose goodwill (I assume) you wish to retain.
Personally, and also because Kickstarter pledges take so long to arrive anyway, I don't mind if other people get copies before I do. I see it as confirming a copy for myself, not the speed it arrives. If a company needs to sell a general release in order to maintain themselves as a company, I have no problem with that, especially if it's a company I like/support. There's a few caveats though: 1. I (so far) haven't backed a game that was released to the general public and my KS copy was delayed by 6 months or more, 2. I haven't backed a game where my copy was lacking something compared to the general release copy, and 3. I fortunately haven't backed a game that failed to deliver and was released separately from the KS. In case #2, I mean between me backing the game and it getting released, the publisher/developer added something due to a deal made with some other company; I do not mean a game that had multiple release options and I chose a lower tier (base, deluxe, mac daddy edition, etc.).
While I agree with most the stuff, I think it is ok to be upset. We live in a value based environment which has pros and cons. There are things were it is easy to get the value (track the price history, check similar products,...), but there are also things where it is pretty hard to predict the value. Kickstarter falls in the 2nd category and plays with it. Most kickstarter start off with a bad deal, but get decent or good when all the strech goals come in. It is fine to know know the value and force the buyers to valuate it for themself, but leaving the value question open (not answering questions about price differences), trying to increase the value and hype by using an existing and beloved IP and then not focusing on improving but makeing more deals for themself causes people to feel upset. I am glad I backed out, after seeing their fishy answer about the price differences. When I say they dont focus on improving the game and try to promote a bigger value I talk about things like the double layer boards. Everyone whiches for them in Terraforming Mars and instead of giving them to all players and let all players have a better playing experience, they use the feature for promoting and increasing the value of the game. I am fine with upgraded components as kickstarter exclusive, but when all your fans wish for a feature, implement it and dont treat it as an extra increaing fomo. Still I also agree with there beeing worse things than having payed a bit too much and it would be wrong to over dramatise the situation.
Honestly, I don't care that they decided to sell a different version of the game at target. I am also not upset that the retailer got it first. My issue is that their update was treating us like idiots. Here's why: -original date to receive was September. -got an update saying that they are doing great and are ahead of schedule. -then the last update blames covid and shipping for the reason that we are not getting the game before target. If they had an agreement with target and their original date was September then there's something fishy about them blaming covid and shipping for the delays when the game is already arriving ahead of schedule even with the delays.. the contract had to be signed before the games were made so its most likely before the kickstarter ot shortly after. I understand how big box stores work like target. They arrange their own shipping and probably have a partnership stablished with shipping companies so they can get products faster during times like these... at least faster than someone who doesn't ship as much as stuff like stronghold. Also I understand that because they don't come with the extras, their games were probably finished first. So for them to get it sooner makes sense and I don't fault them for it. But come on.... dont lie like this. The only reason they put this half as*** update was because people were already posting about finding the game in target prior to this. They were caught with their pants down and made up an excuse because of the circumstances... except they forgot their initial delivery date. Mistakes happen. Maybe its not strongholds fault and they had to cover for target, but like I said at the beginning... dont treat us like idiots.
You're right, of course, and I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I think it's interesting that game companies consider this is a legit business decision that gamers should just accept, but when the shipping crisis hit and suddenly costs exceeded what was originally charged, companies appealed to our sense of gaming community to say we should willingly chip in for additional shipping costs or wait another 6 months or a year without complaint for the promised project. If KS supporters are just a piggy bank and companies are willing to push the absolute limits of what they can do to make a profit, then don't come looking for sympathy (or more $) when some unexpected economic force threatens to take a bite out of their bottom line or forces them to reneg on their promises.
Honestly speaking this is a type of game that there was no need to rush on KS... and now even you can take early, cheaper in Target... 😂 Well done Stronghold
Idk why people don't realize these companies funding at 500k+ aren't using Kickstarter because they need you. They use it as a marketing tool. And Target, Walmart etc... Is a bigger better marketing tool. Get over it. It's a business. Ya it's shitty, but it's what you should expect.
Not being caught in this - mainly because I'm sure Ares Expedition will be published in Spanish at some point so better to wait - but yea. I mean, they do this, just treat them like they treat you; oh, you want my backing for a new project? Well, why dont you ask Target for money? I'll wait for retail, seems a better deal for me. Oh, is not such a good deal for you if nobody backs? Well... I wonder why would that be. Of course, the problem, as you say, is the next time there will be the SAME number of backers and probably the same people.
Ares had retail all over it and they did not promise you would get it first. They likely manufactured everything at once. I would imagine that Targets logistics is very mature and experienced. So its no surprise, especially in this environment that Target was able to secure the product as well as get it shipped to stores faster then what stronghold could ship to its backers. Then It isnt even the same product so technically target isn't getting it first. I can't get behind this outrage at all and any response beyond saying you are disappointed is getting into Karen territory.
For example, I won't buy a Portal Games game any more. In every game I bought there were errors: wrong colours, misspelt words, contradicting rules, unclear rules, misprints, etc. A few years ago I said to myself: never ever, I'm done with spending my money and time finding clarifications on the web. But since I'm a completionist, I bought the latest expansion to Imperial Settlers. And there are issues with it too, which once made us stop for one hour to find explanations, which we are not happy with! I also bought some extra tiles and cards from their online shop and received an incomplete set of cards. What is their problem?? Other than that, I have successfully refrained from buying anything new from them FOR YEARS. They have some cool games and new releases, but guys, buckle up and fight the FOMO!
The level of toxicity in the Stronghold campaign was off the chart from day one. I will never understand the level of hatred for a boardgame... If you don´t like it just walk away and don´t give them money. But these people stay around for weeks writing comments and some apparently even backing the game.... unbelievable
I don't mind the target release, I mind the lack of communication from Stronghold and how they interact with loyal customers. I got my TMBB and I'm done with this company.
To clarify: I'm only upset at the way Stronghold is treating us the backers. I have no problem with the game being available and cheaper in retail. I want to be treated like a Backer and not an ATM which is how I feel after Stronghold's communication.
The people sending death threats are off their rocker.
then next time you back a game from Stronghold don t throw your money in a second, think a bit before. otherwise be patience with the game
@@orbesteanu4tsa Won't be a next time. I'll never back a game from them again after this. This is also something they've never done before, so am I supposed "think a bit before" and assume every single time I back a game that they'll just treat you badly? If not, what do you want me to "think a bit before" about?
right, thats your choice, but don t worry, you ll still get the better version. so no need to get stressed out.
Backers ARE an ATM though for Kickstarters, lol
I have seen this complaint for years and I have a simple rule. If I am getting something extra that the retail edition doesn’t then it doesn’t bother me.
Yep, makes sense.
My thoughts exactly. I dont care. I think it was bad decision by them but don't really care
It felt like a bit of a slap in the face that we were not told about until mere hours before it was on Target shelves. I probably would’t have cared if there was communication but it felt like they were purposely deceiving us backers in order to not lose out on that kickstarter money.
Agreed...and I think people should act accordingly on their next KS.
As a comparison, I want to mention how Cora Quest handled their retail addition. Their communication throughout the process was great and I never felt de-valued as a backer due to their decision to go to retail.
Really shows how we hope business decision are handled. Sadly "it's just business," it frustrating to hear but rings true more often than not. Bravo to Dan and the team for setting such a good example. Cheers
I'm glad I'm getting the dual-layer boards.
But I will definitely not back another Stronghold kickstarter project. I'm a bit of a ks addict, and so now I have to be extremely picky about projects I back because my apartment is overrun by board games.
One HUGE difference between CMON/Marvel United and Stronghold/TM:AE was that CMON showed respect for their backers and allowed for refunds or 2-wave shipping. Stronghold deliberately deceived their backers and waited until the last minute to make sure that backers couldn't take advantage of their stated kickstarter refund policy. If they had informed customers at the close of the campaign (or even a couple weeks earlier), like CMON did, backers could've made an informed decision to refund their pledge and get the game at Target. Stronghold's disregard for their backers is reason enough for me to pass on their future games.
Having said that, the awful, toxic comments that showed up in response to Stronghold's poor behavior was much worse. It just made me sick to see the hate that was spewed in the comment section. I immediately reported the behavior to kickstarter, and it was good to see the comments removed. I hope kickstarter actually bans users for those offenses, although it might be easy for someone to get around such a ban. Anyway, I appreciate the video!
I am a bit torn on this. But I got to say thanks for providing the perspective of "why be upset that someone else got a good deal, you got yours, dont be upset." I say be happy others are happy and that the medium as a whole is growing to the point that its not just Monopoly in Target / Walmart.
When I back a kickstarter I always ask myself if I think I will be happy paying what they ask for what they say they are delivering. Then I always add quite a few months to the time that they say it will be delivered, as most have always been late. If they deliver in a reasonable time what they say they will, I am content. My experience with Stronghold so far is that they have always delivered what they said they would and they are much closer to on time than most of my Kickstarter backs. I was firmly in the don't care group about the Target release, but I have changed to being positive now when I consider the effect on the hobby base.
I appreciate your commentary on this one. Brought up some points I wish I touched on. Keep on keeping on.
Lots of good points here. I also backed Ares (and Turmoil and the Big Box), and I don't really care that there's a version of the game in Target. Honestly, as a gamer I wouldn't buy the Target version b/c of the cheap player boards.
I think what's missing from this whole conversation is the "Stronghold's retail business plan" aspect. When I back a game, I don't expect my involvement should have anything more to do than the game itself. What the publisher does with the game or other corporate agreements they might make doesn't matter. Stronghold has a Target agreement? Good for them. Skybound has a B&N agreement? Good for them. I backed the Suburbia CE -- Bezier said there'd be some copies of the CE at retail, and that would be more expensive. Great. But later they decided to do a "2nd edition" with everything separate (with Trayz). Good for them. I didn't care that they made that business decision to do a 2nd edition without consulting backers. And yeah that's good for everyone because now more people can grab one of my favorite games in a new edition.
One major nuance that is overlooked when most are deciding to choose to back a project- does this project even need to be crowdfunded in the first place?
Theres a good chance if the game is coming out in Target, before people who are supposed to be bringing it to life get it, that they did not need help creating the game to begin with.
This can be particularly frustrating for new publishers, who actually need the help funding a project. Yet the consumer market is far less likely to back a first time creator unless they check all the boxes.
People should learn to distinguish between the two in my opinion.
Some people are theorizing that the publisher needed the kickstarter money to finance a deal with Target, which does not pay in advance, but at delivery of the game boxes.
@@vonwoolf9963 deffinetly a possibility. Im sure targets desired quantity was a lot and they didn't want to personally pay for those games.
I joined the hobby only 5 years ago. I "only" backed 8 games so far, 5 being fulfilled by now. Getting the game later than retail or only insignificantly sooner is what I would normal based on my little experience on the topic. I learned that early on by being more of an observer than a backer. That is why I only support projects by small companies or newcomers who really do need the support and/or the publicity that come switch a Kickstarter campaign. I hope this serves as another big warning to famers across the world that makes them think, wether they should support companies like Stronghold or CMON that could easily produce, advertise and sell their games without the necessity to have a Kickstarter campaign.
Stronghold Games has zero business being on KS. I do not back their campaigns and will not do so. As far as this situation, this is a nothingburger. This happens more and more often and again this is the retail edition, not the KS edition. So vote with your wallets.
Yep, mostly agreed. I think anyone can be on KS...but it's up to backers to determine whether they care enough.
@@BoardGameCo Lol I realize I cannot tell anyone NOT to use KS. I do believe that for a company with such a strong retail presence, I don't believe they add anything to being on KS. I try to vote with my wallet and not support companies like this using KS.
@@npckse8508 For established publishers, KS acts as a market test, and can give an indication of popularity.
Case in point: Stonemaier Games stopped using KS and instead set up their own preorder store. However, this was a partial reason why they underestimated the interest in Wingspan so it remained so in demand between first and second printing that second-hand copies sold for tons of money - none of which went to Stonemaier.
Well said Alex! Thank you for this conversation!
Glad you enjoyed :)
Just normally people pay in advance and with risk in KS because they can get some extra and better service, so people will think the same with Stronghold, Stronghold does not have the obligation to follow that, but it will make people who think so feel upset.
You do not have the obligation to pay tips after dinner in restaurant, but if you did not do that, i think the waiter/waitress will be upset. And if you tell them you should not be upset because people does not have the obligation to pay tips, what will they think?
Good video, with a nicely balanced analysis of the situation. Any disappointment I have about this situation is about how SHG has approached communicating it, and you captured that really well.
I see backing in a game as "investing" and, as an investor, I should get something preferential, either in timing or quality. In this case, I didn't even check on the Kickstarter until I got a shipping notice and was trying to figure out what would be showing up. So, obviously timing isn't a big concern for me.
I'm still getting good QUALITY for my investment, in that my copy will be different than the store version, and I also backed it to get the Big Box Promos (I didn't back big box because I don't want a big box). So, from a value standpoint, I'm getting what I paid for, and getting the Big Box promos earlier than I could somewhere else.
Agreed. From a pure investment strategy, the access elsewhere does hurt the investment. But then again they never promised anything about timelines, so for me it's about the communication and that's it.
Really appreciated this thoughts.
I understand passion for games, fomo, being part of a community about the hyped game of the month and stuff like that but you should remember one thing when things happen. You're not the world's center. You're one in a crowd. If you love a game you will have chance to play it enjoy it and share it. Sometimes even after waiting months or years (as often we can see even from creators like you.) It doesn't matter when you achieve it if you're doing it for love of the activity. It matters that you achieve it. Otherwise You're running just to being the first which talks about something and knows about something. It's just a social media hysteria.
So if something is beautiful and bad things happens i'm sorry, i can feel the disappointment, you can choose and valuate for the future. But the beautiful thing will come and you will be happy anyway.
This is the hobby, this is gaming, this is caring of yourself. You already have what you need to being happy in this hobby while waiting for the disappointing things to pass away.
Thanks Alex, your thoughts sharing is valuable for the hobby and the community in my opinion.
That was great thanks
Totally agree with you-- happens too often-- kills Kickstarter benefit
Yep, absolutely.
Thanks for addressing this. I agree with your points. Stronghold’s lack of transparency is the root of the issue for me, not who got what first. They have still yet to address this, which makes this even worse. Due to their poor communications and dismissive attitude towards backers, I will no longer back their campaigns.
'...unfortunately most people will continue to back things and then complain afterwards' is probably the hardest working sentence in this whole 16 minute video.
Truth.
However CMON did the right thing (gave people a choice), whereas Stronghold didn't (no way to change now). Let's hope it will impact their next kickstarter... but I doubt it.
Yep, I'm always a fan of if you don't like something, do something about it. But all too often people are upset but will still continue to feed into it.
Great vid Alex, better communication would have helped stronghold here. But people do need to remember if they are backing a company that's has a retail presence they really need to be comfortable with the value of the exclusives they are getting in KS vs waiting.
Absolutely agreed.
Thank you so much for your take on this Alex! You rock.
Appreciate it :)
How dare you be level headed about this. Clearly Stronghold is out to get us all. BRING OUT THE PITCHFORKS!
I backed the Ares Expedition and was only slightly bummed I didn't get my copy before it hit Target #firstworldproblems. Still excited to get my copy and am excited to have storage cases for cubes and the dual layered player boards. I could've gotten it cheaper through Target, but oh well. I'll just be happy to have a copy and I'll move on with my life without threatening people. Crazy, I know.
True but kickstarter is loosing all the benefits that we had in the past... And is not related only about this game
Magistral talk! I belive there is a HUGE problem of miscomunication from Stronghold, but on the other hand if I get what was promised thats ok, bottom line next time I Will be really cautious next time Stronghold appears on KS. With time experiences on KS Will tell us which companies deserve to be Back, for example Burnt Island ran an Incredible campaing for Fall of The Mountain King, and In The Hall of The Mountain King was a solid campain as well, thats the way to tell bad companies from Incredible ones... Time Will tell...
I didn't back it because I knew something like this was going to happen, I don't know why people were surprised, really.
Companies are using KS as a free loan system and people keep enabling them
A very quick clarification about Stronghold delivering late - actually, they are still delivering early, because the original delivery date in the campaign was September. They are delivering after Target, which I am sure sucks for North American backers (no Target in Europe, so it's all the same to us Europeans), and it should have been communicated much better.
I completely agree with your thoughts, and I guess I will be put into the Stronghold defenders camp, but here are a few more thoughts on my side. It is very much possible that Stronghold saw the writing on the wall about rising shipping costs, so they decided to do something about it. Attaching their product to Target gives them a lot more opportunities to save on shipping costs, as well as make the game early, as I am sure Target has quite a few deals with Chinese manufacturers and can squeeze Stronghold in the production schedule. The result is that this project is neither delayed nor more money are asked from backers for shipping - something that quite a few other projects are currently doing. I've see a lot of complaints about other projects why the publishers didn't do something. Well, it seems Stronghold did, but it doesn't feel good to a lot of people.
In the end, I do believe Stronghold could have handled this much better and they should have been much more transparent to backers. Is it the end of the world? No, and I think all this rage will eventually go away when people start playing the game.
One final thought about Kickstarter exclusives - I think they harm developers/publishers and the sooner they go away, the better. Here is how things stand - someone will see a Kickstarter edition of a game at a friend and will go to their FLGS to get it. There, they will find that the retail version of the game doesn't have quite a few things. Normally, you would think that the FLGS will be the loser. Well, they won't, because they have hundreds, if not thousands of other games to offer that person, quite a few of them probably better. So in most cases than others, the FLGS will make their sale. However, the publisher will be the big loser.
Thus, I think publishers should stop offering exclusives, for their own sake. It will be also a step towards resolving the FOMO issue that currently plagues Kickstarters. I don't believe exclusives are the only reason people back Kickstarter campaigns, so backers won't go away. Actually, some might, and these are usually the people who complain the most, so I'd say two birds with one stone :)
Always love the talking points and the perspective. No skin in this game, but still interesting to hear.
Glad you're enjoying :)
I didn't back it, but even if I had, I wouldn't really be upset by this. If the deal is that I get my Kickstarter fulfilled in 3 months from when the campaign closed but retail gets a lesser version first, I'd be "sign me up!" That's fantastic compared to usual Kickstarter fulfillment time, including the Terraforming Mars Big Box which took almost a year.
Great video... but I am in the same boat with you.. as long as I am getting what I pledged I'm fine with whatever they want to do to promote their game... I see it as a plus for the gaming community.
Yep, that's where I am...it might affect future backing decisions but that's about it.
I have to say that working in logistics it is a bit crazy right now with the container shortage and how everything is compounding to make so many shipments delayed especially for small companies. Of course, in my opinion, the main issue here was that they were not more open with backers and waited too long to just come clean and let everyone know what could happen. If they had been more upfront I, myself would not have been upset. I have no problem with a retail version getting to the stores before my copy arrives at my door. Yeah it sucks, but in the end I was getting some special cards and upgraded items in my copy so I was glad to wait. I think this will be a great example for any future companies to make sure that they are as transparent as possible as early as possible.
As a backer, I don't feel bad for other backers. Stronghold has 3 company maxims that always hold true:
1) Their component quality is awful for a major publisher
2) Their prices will feel like gouging for the size/quality of the game
3) They don't care what you think.
If any of those unsettle you, then you probably shouldn't back Stronghold kickstarters. I pre-ordered Ares, and accepted the value I paid for it - my gripes end when my game shows up as expected.
Thanks Alex. Another thought provoking video. It’s a strange one this. I backed it, I live in the UK, it makes no difference to me. Ares Expedition was my first Kickstarter, I went back and forward as to whether I should back and eventually went for it. My feelings now are the same they were before, the Kickstarter page is like a piece of cheese on a mousetrap. It looks so good, so tempting and I went for it, handed over my money. However unlike the poor mouse in the trap, I still get my game, and walk away with what I paid for. I don’t feel duped. However I do feel peeved that I was made to feel grateful for getting the game early, only to not get it before other people, I feel a bit stupid that I didn’t expect this. I think being made to feel that way is down to Stronghold and I don’t appreciate that.
However the Isle of Cats Kickstarter just finished. I backed this and loved the campaign. Frank West did an amazing job. Now I have a comparison of how a Kickstarter could/should be and now I am a little wiser. Stronghold have a thing or two to learn about how you treat your backers. Happy Friday all!!
CMON massively improved their communication for Ankh. Well done biweekly updates like clockwork.
Yes! They have been improving.
I have no dog in this race and I’m not from USA, so I’m not the best person to give opinions in this particular situation, but I absolutely agree with everything you said. Learn from experiences and mistakes made in the past, move on, be happy with what you have and be happy for others. Act accordingly from now on and don’t contribute to the toxicity that spawns from any issue. Be a positive influence and do your best to guide others and yourself in the future. This applies literally to everything in your life.
The right approach and wise words from you, as always.
The world needs more reasonable people like you, Alex. You’re the coolest.
Well said, Alex. There are definitely a few companies that I’m more wary of backing based on past experiences. I’m not one to boycott, but it will influence my valuation of the next Kickstarter project.
Exactly. I'm not boycotting, but this factors into my decisions.
It depends on what you expect from Kickstarter board game projects.
For myself, a very high priority is if I get the game before it is publicly available in my region. For me, it shows that the company values the money I gave them many months in advance. But that's me and if others feels differently that's ok.
Personally, I will not back projects from stronghold games anymore, as I have done with other companies on Kickstarter already. I am not angry with them, I am disappointed, that's all.
As always, very interesting and considerate topic in your video, Thank you.
I agree with you Alex, that we as board gamers need to reconsider maybe the whole Kickstarter thing. I for one really appreciate your videos. Although I don’t use them for resell value, I always do get a good feel whether the Kickstarter/Gamefound project is value for money. My number one consideration for backing is always do I like the game, then will it hit retail or not. If it does hit retail, what will be the Kickstarter exclusives. Your videos provide me with all that info, more so than on other channels. Lastly I will factor in shipping and tax, since living in the Netherlands means that that might be a dealbreaker as shipping and tax will sometimes double the price if no EU friendly shipping is included. In short, I will need to get the idea of getting a good deal. For that reason I did for instance back Everdell Complete Edition and Endless Winter. I did not back Stroganov because I did not think the Kickstarter exclusives justified the price and it will certainly come to retail and then I might pay less. So I can wait. For that same reason I chose not to back Ares expedition. Yes maybe the dual layered board are great, but the cost to getting it to the EU make waiting on retail more attractive.
For what it's worth, it was a little bit more than unstated. If you look in the FAQ question about Kickstarter pricing you will see them suggest that yes you could save money down the line in retail if you're willing to wait. Of course that implies the backers will be getting there first. Furthermore I think the real issue is just not giving people the information up front. I think a lot of people are just buying this because it's terraforming Mars and to complete their collection. I'm for one would have been perfectly fine picking it up for cheap at Target had I known because as has already been shown the promos will be cheaper on board game geek than in any strong hold pledge manager.
Reasonable enough, but then don't back their next game. Vote with your wallet.
Good video, and I definitely agree that the actions and habits of we as kickstarter backers, as well as the assumptions we are making about campaigns and such, is something that definitely needs revisiting.
Granted, I don't have a dog in this particular fight, not having backed the Ares Expedition, and I don't think I've backed anything from Stronghold... but there is a bit of an element of "What happened to the pride, as a backer, of being able to say I helped make this happen, that it wouldn't be what it is without my contribution"? If there was a list of all the backers that helped make the retail copy exist in the box, I don't think i would care near as much about a retail copy? That said, from the standpoint of not making the people that DID help make the game a reality... I feel like split shipment type setups should be come the norm and not the exception? Have THAT be the shipping price listed on your KS page, or if you add the option after the fact, subsidize it? There is no reason to hold off on retail till all the 'extras' that a business isnt even allowed to continue selling is done, but at the same time, it's real dissatisfying to be the reason something can exist, but then not be able to play it and enjoy it at the same time as people who didn't help it when it needed it, or when all the review videos are going up on youtube.....
I dunno. it's a messy situation, and everyone will need to figure out their own metric for what to back, when to back, and how much they can afford to back and such. Just.... no death threats. Nothing is ever worth death threats.
I get exactly what you are saying. For me I am very forgiving of delays/accepting risks, future retail edition/v2. There are really only 3 things that really annoy me: given timelines/shipping costs you know you cannot meet including delaying telling us about delays until after a Kickstarter/pledge manger closes; prioritising another group over backers whilst being behind on promises to backers and making major changes to the goal posts without the option of a full refund. If I am getting what you promised me when you promised me then sell it where you like.
Agree 100%. Its been hard for me to resist FOMO, but $lowly I'm learning.
With rising costs, I think its time to wait on KS games.
What you'll save by NOT buying bad games will outweigh what you'll spend when you have to purchase OOP games on the aftermarket.
I ALMOST backed Batman GCC for $400 b/c I wanted to like it so bad. Now, I hear the rules are so bad and a lot of people won't even play it.
So glad I resisted on that one.
Coffee Traders arrived for me today! It's a heavy worker placement game with a really great theme.
I get all of that but one simple fix... "Hey target, this is stronghold here, we're gonna have to push back launch by a month so that our loyal supporters get their games first"
If they're not willing to do that and risk losing the contract then they need to be looking at target to fund their next project, not us.
I disagree sadly. If they do that to Target, Target won't work with them again. If they do it to the backers, most will still come back.
Not defending Stronghold, but Is entirely possible it was out of their hands? the Kickstarter copies were subject to every games problems with freight and customs, but the retail version got bumped up because Target is a much larger company. It is entirely possible that they expected the Kickstarter version to go out first, but then the freight crisis hit delaying them. However the deal they had with Target for a certain date was fine because Target as a Large company has priority with its shipping, and by delaying the retail version it would break their contract with Target. I am only saying this because Many games that are delayed, are stated by the company to be out of their hands once the game starts distributing.
The communication was never out of their hands, and from the KS to now, the communication has been poor at best.
@@BoardGameCo That's true
So I feel like what is getting missed with some of these deeper analysis videos is the fundamental idea that with kickstarter, when you pledge you are placing a Pre-order. Through this Pre-order you are also making an interest free loan to the company, providing feedback on project details, and taking on a share of project risk, but its the fact that it's a Pre-order that is important here. When you place a Pre-order with a company there is a reasonable expectation that they will make a good faith effort to fill your order first before other orders. It may not be in their terms and conditions but it shouldn't have to be. If a retail store or a pizza place did the same thing it would still be wrong. Sure backers get some freebies in exchange for making this Pre-order and taking on some risk, but the fundamental principle doesn't change.
I can get a publisher putting copies on sale at a convention before backers get their copies. If you're backing a game, the point is to bring the game into existence, not to pre-order it (getting a copy of the game is your benefit for backing), and not letting a company promote it at a GenCon or Origins or Speile runs counter to that idea. But running it out at a big box retailer ahead of backers getting copies -- especially when it's a well-established company like Stronghold -- feels like a bridge too far.
I think that's reasonable, and that people who don't like it should not back their next KS.
One thing I haven't seen in almost all of this discussion is the fact that Stronghold is actually a part of Indie Board and Cards. That company has had a history of being dismissive of their customers, going so far as to cancelling pledges of backers who bring up any complaints, no matter how valid they are. I think a lot of this probably originated from IBC, but Stronghold is the one taking the bullets.
Interesting point for sure. For myself I just care about the current actions and not so much the past.
I backed this one and I'm not upset at all! Just got my tracking info 👌
This is all very simple: If Stronghold wanted their game to be a target exclusive first then it shouldn’t have been on kickstarter, it should have gone straight to retail like Jaws of the Lion
If they insisted on doing a kickstarter then the game going to target first should have been clear right at the start on the KS page. The target contract would have been negotiated well before the kickstarter was launched.
Anything else is knowingly deceitful. Don’t bite the hand that feeds.
They have no such obligation. But I agree that not doing so will result in people feel feeling betrayed.
@@BoardGameCo one of your rules for having a successful kickstarter was to not piss off your backers. This flies in the face of that.
It is clear cut - Stronghold games chose to kick a beehive and then got stung. Before making this decision they knew what the consequences would be and they still went ahead with it. Therefore it is their fault.
For context: I am not a backer and do not have a dog in the fight.
@@samhs101 I agree, but I also said specifically at that point, that the larger companies can get away with it. Enough people want terraforming Mars that they can do what they want.
@@BoardGameCo thumbs up and agreed good sir.
They can do what they want but if they opt to head down paths like this they will get no sympathy for the fallout of their decisions. You reap what you sow.
@@samhs101 - I'm in the same bracket: Have not backed, Still on the fence if I'm ever going to get TM because it would be solo only for me.... but this makes me think: "enough fish in the pond... I'll leave this as long as possible"
But more than anything it irks me that these big companies make people turn off KS as a whole. I, for one, am never backing any big company game on KS.
I don't care, honestly. I have plenty of games to keep me busy. I would honestly rather not support the platform of kickstarter, but it's the biggest board game platform.
Yep, I'm in the "don't care, but more cautions about their KS in the future" camp.
Great video Alex, I'm in the boat of not caring very much if someone gets a retail verson before I do, or gets a slighly better deal. The only reason is the individual who gets the retail version will not have most of the extras that I will be getting for example the free KS expansion or promos, premium die, the playmat, the cosmetic expansion, "Box art" and so on....now what kills me is my friend and I back the same game and he gets his copy first and I can't rub it in! Haha (only kidding)
Whoa, hold the phone. I was not aware that you only got the dual layered player boards in the Kickstarter version. That seems like a pretty necessary feature considering the complaints the big brother version had and if that is true, then I guess I won't ever be picking this game up because that's a deal breaker for me.
Yep, unfortunately true.
9:11 - Not quite the one-to-one correlation. Your analogy should be "if you're happy with two lollipops" (the KS backer with all the extra stuff you get from KS), "but you're unhappy because someone else got one lollipop before you got yours" (retail purchasers) . . . that makes more sense. And THAT really puts things, and everyone, in perspective.
Personally, I chose to pass on the KS.
Agreed, good point!
The problem is that kickstarter backers paid there money 1 year in advance, people that purchase the game from target are getting it at the same time but for cheaper.
The value proposition for the year earlier backer - the return they get for their 1 year investment - has decreased.
Agreed.
*their
Also that's a complaint for the KS system, you can be jealous of people that got it a different and arguably more consumer-friendly way, but it should not be an issue for reasonable people.
Thing is, what they're really doing is using Kickstarter as a store front for board game enthusiasts and completionists, to basically fund a game for someone else.
It's just so far from what Kickstarter and crowdfunding is supposed to be....a place where you can support projects that otherwise won't see the light of day without backer funding.
And the nature of crowdfunding is that you get rewarded for that support.
What Stronghold Games did (from a backer perspective) was basically "We need you to fund our production run for a deal we made with Target, and as a reward, we're putting you at the end of the line."
And sure, even if Target paid some amount up front, they're basically using backer money to ship containers across the globe for someone else's benefit.
Probably because Target will make up the bulk of their profits, compared to the 17K copies sold to backers.
And the unique backer rewards simply doesn't justify the difference in pricing, when you also have to factor in shipping costs.
So yeah, I understand why backers feel deceived.
Is it really a big deal?
In terms of what you're getting and when you're getting it, not really.
The game will come, and I'm sure it'll be fun.
But would you pay your mechanic up front to fix your car, ONLY so he could spend it on blinker fluid for his bulk of BMW customers, and put your repair job dead last?
Is that really someone you would trust?
So glad I didnt back it. Once they said they aren't discounting with no promo, I was like. "I'll just wait for it to go to the store."
Then they went back on promo items. By that time they lost me
Yeah the entire campaign wasn't run in a way that made it seem like they prioritized the backers. Running a company and a campaign isn't easy, I'm not here to give them a hard time But at the same time I do think people should back what makes sense and take into account anything and everything including pass history.
You said you would come back to the death threats but never did. I think for everyone who is going to address this issue, there needs to be a clear and unified statement throughout the board game community that no matter how poorly a company handles their board game business, death threats are NOT okay. I hope you will consider using your influence to help make the community safer and saner.
You're right, I forgot to. It's absolutely unacceptable. Fortunately I believe it was one individual.
This is not their first rodeo. I think people who were surprised by this may not have researched enough into the past Kickstarter record of Indie Boards and Cards.
That whole "being satisfied with one lollipop until you realize someone else has two lollipops" I think also plays into peoples' psychology for always wanting projects to offer KS exclusives. They want it to be exclusive so no one else has a proverbial "second lollipop" unless they backed the KS. They want the retail version (others' version) to always be "less than" the KS version (their version), even though someone else's version has nothing to do with their version. "They" being a generalization, of course.
Absolutely agreed. For myself I don't care....it will absolutely affect my backing decision, but that's about it.
The problem wasn’t the fact that Target got their edition before the backers, but rather that SH secretly lied to us until the night before Target would sell in their stores. There’s evidence that SH had already started production during the campaign, because there would otherwise be no way that Target would have gotten their copies by June 20 with the world’s shortages on ships and corgo containers that’s happening since early of 2021.
Here’s the lie.
Start of campaign: Promised Sept delivery.
Shortly after campaign: Oh, hey, it looks like we’re ahead of schedule (which they already knew that it was going to be ahead of schedule).
Recent update: oh, we would have liked you have the game before June 20 because that was the “original” plan, but since covid, you’re not getting it before June 20.
So it’s not the fact that Target is getting it sooner or cheaper, but rather that SH had already begun production during campaign and lied about delivery date, made us feel good by making it sound like we’re getting it sooner, then blamed covid for not getting it. It’s the lie that is the problem, not that Target gets it first.
This is why I will always advocate for this point - Before backing a Kickstarter, do EXTENSIVE research on the company making the product. Put more effort into looking into the company than into the game. Because you aren't really buying a product on Kickstarter, you are buying an "IOU" note, a promise. And there's nothing that states that they need to fulfill that promise, or fulfill it in the way that you desire. So always make sure you analyze the company's track record.
This is the second Stronghold project with this franchise recently that has had some big missteps. A decent chunk of people were not happy with the big box based on the fact that the pieces were not as nice as they had wanted and there was no instructions on putting everything together in the box. And now this. I don't care about TM, but if you do, and you feel you got burned, stop backing their games.
A situation similar (as in backers expectations were different to what was delivered) to this where it actually went well was with Road 2 Infamy games with Canvas. The original Kickstarter had this small card KS pack that was meant to be exclusive to that first KS. They ended up with many more than needed to fulfill. Instead of disposing of them, they wanted to put them as add ons in the expansion campaign. But they promised it would be exclusive to the first KS. So they asked the first backers for what they wanted and let them know that they would do whatever the consensus was.
Now I much prefer Kickstarter exclusives to not be exclusive. Maybe for a cheaper price, or budled together, or a different model/something aesthetic about it. But making gameplay items exclusive annoys me, even when I'm part of the KS. But R2i realized that they promised this and they wanted to make sure they didn't simply lie. And the consensus ended up being that they would sell the KS pack as an add on, but all proceeds from that add on would go to charity.
It took a little longer, but that communication quelled some potential tensions that could have arisen. And it was only like 10 or 15 cards.
I do think that Stronghold should have had better communication. But they Unfortunately have the ability to do what they did. If you want to put in a complaint, do so, and then stop backing their games.
Also, if you are giving death threats over a Kickstarter, then you ABSOLUTELY shouldn't be on kickstarter.
Personally, the only situation where I could see myself annoyed is if it was significantly earlier, like 6 months or more. But by then, there's probably a lot more issues then just that..
But, yeah, especially when you get better stuff, I don't care.
Great Job again. Stronghold is a good gaming Company. I dont care about stores getting it early as long as backers games are different.
I had this with Garphill games…. Retail got their games first ….. so now I just buy their games via retail not KS . Its not personal just makes no sense to back them on KS -but I still buy their games.
Yep, totally get it.
I'd be pissed!! I didn't back it because I planned to get it at retail... And I fully expected it to get to retail LONG after KS backers got theirs. I was ok with getting it later because I knew I'd get it at a lower price. Getting it cheaper and first... Heck yeah for my choice NOT to back it.
Since Canada does not have a target, it ord not bother me one way or the other. TFM is consistently asked for to play. With Etsy I was able to get a great set of overlays for the boards. Through I have to admit the expansions never in my opinion added anything except for prelude. Have yet to try Turmoil.
Something similar happened to me with Nemesis, the reprint for the Lockdown campaign was shipped after retail received more stock (in my country at least). And it's even worse because my pledge cannot be shipped due to polish post lockdown (not Nemesis fault, but by the time it arrives it will have been sold at a similar price in retail for several months)
Nice vid! I wonder if we'll see this more in the future due to the fact of the shifting relationship of creators and backers as more larger companies use KS. I'm curious if because companies are shifting to using KS as more of a pre-order platform they view backers more as consumers than as investors which causes less transparency.
I agree. Its not about being angry. We will get the game eventually. However, between this and the sub par TM big box I received will just guarantee I never back another stronghold campaign again.
Yep, for me it's situational, but yes, I'm more wary.
I am sure you will remind us next time Stronghold brings a kikstarter. And probably will make a difference because you will remind us that they don't care about us, and we will make a decision remembering... Thanks for being there
Oh I will, but to me fair I made that pretty clear this time already even before we got to this issue.
I'll never understand people who get so angry over non-important things.
I have a scale when figuring out how long and how angry I should be, and that is how long will it matter to me, how long will it affect me, and how much does it affect me.
People need perspective, and start getting angrier about those things that are affecting your entire life, such as health care, wages, cost of living, housing prices, and government corruption.
I agree that people shouldn't get death threat level angry over stuff like this but it's totally reasonable to be angry about the way Stronghold treated its backers here
It boils down to a lack of transparency. This Target deal was clearly in the works well before, and that’s the root of why people are mad IMO. We all found out literally right before it showed up on shelves. If they had said it early on, we all wouldn’t be here. And you’re right, they completely framed this in a way that lacked any sort of understanding of why it’s an issue.
One of the reasons I don't do Kickstarters. They have your money way in advance, almost always you end up paying more and on top of everything you pay shipping (very high btw).
Yup that timing thing sucks. Target exclusivity sucks BIGTIME for anyone that is not in the USA. Here in Canada that's not a 6 month delay, it's a 6 month delay until any FLGS can order it in + the wait for that delivery to arrive. No Target in Canada = No availability at all. This may be just a horrible annoyance at other times, but during the pandemic with restricted travel, closed borders and major shipping issues means I'll possibly see this game June 2022....
What I don’t understand, something I’ve not heard anyone talk about yet, and what would infuriate me as a backer is this question: why was SH able to meet their deadline and timeline of fulfillment for Target but not for backers? Is it really that much more complex to manufacture the KS version? Or did they prioritize limited resources and put the Target copies in the front of the manufacturing line? I think it’s something more like the second scenario.
Stronghold seems to have become a big player in the market. They do not need Kickstarter anymore. As a big player they can revert to partnerships with big players, but the Kickstarter days must be over.
I don't personally feel that way...go on KS all you want, it's up to the people to decide if they want to back things....and they still will.
I guess I'm one that just doesn't care. I have 4 kickstarters out right now that are months late. One of them nearly 7 months. I have not got out the pitchfork and torch yet.....but I am much more annoyed by the delays.. I will be happy to get one game on time or early this year.
Yep, I don't care enough, I understand why people are frustrated and I do think people should take it into account when they back things... But that's about it.
Thanks for publicly holding Stronghold Games accountable for their bad behavior. Hopefully, all the blow back they're receiving will influence them to treat their backers better in the future.
Yep, I think they had a very hot game and didn't overly concern themselves with the backer base. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned, But it does mean people should take that into account on future campaigns
The FOMO gives a sense of entitlement and risk, so any reward or loss is met with an even more intense emotional response than you'd experience otherwise.
Oh wow I didnt know about this at all pretty well lets just say I can think of some not so nice words (I dont live in the US nor backed this) but apparently they told people hours before it was in the stores... meaning they knew about this for a long ass time and trying to milk the last drop until the last second. If this is true they deserve whatever they get as a company being anti consumer.
Good discussion. Good points.
Pretty much share your feelings regarding KSing and expanding the hobby into broader markets. As far as timing, I got it in august - first KS to arrive earlier than initial estimate 👍.
But I will, and have, offered feedback regarding the campaigns appalling communications. Posted a rather scathing comment calling out the campaign manger over lack of updates. As my comment was posted between two of theirs, I assume that the aggressively dismissive tone of the latest (as of 1st sept) update (posted about 30 mins after my comment) was a response to my observations.
I paraphrase: “Don’t expect another update til we think everything is delivered! AND this campaign has been HARD, so we might increase shipping or not ship it difficult markets.” The implication is ‘we’ve got too much business, and can’t cost shipping correctly.’ Sounds to me awfully like a completely disorganised diva that complains how much success they have.
Love you Stronghold, but someone there seems to have a mindset that excludes humility or contrition - just don’t let that person handle (potentially edgy) communications with (potentially edgy) backers whose goodwill (I assume) you wish to retain.
Did you guys tried the Here to Slay by Unstable Games?
Not yet.
@@BoardGameCo can't wait 😊
Personally, and also because Kickstarter pledges take so long to arrive anyway, I don't mind if other people get copies before I do. I see it as confirming a copy for myself, not the speed it arrives.
If a company needs to sell a general release in order to maintain themselves as a company, I have no problem with that, especially if it's a company I like/support.
There's a few caveats though: 1. I (so far) haven't backed a game that was released to the general public and my KS copy was delayed by 6 months or more, 2. I haven't backed a game where my copy was lacking something compared to the general release copy, and 3. I fortunately haven't backed a game that failed to deliver and was released separately from the KS.
In case #2, I mean between me backing the game and it getting released, the publisher/developer added something due to a deal made with some other company; I do not mean a game that had multiple release options and I chose a lower tier (base, deluxe, mac daddy edition, etc.).
While I agree with most the stuff, I think it is ok to be upset. We live in a value based environment which has pros and cons. There are things were it is easy to get the value (track the price history, check similar products,...), but there are also things where it is pretty hard to predict the value. Kickstarter falls in the 2nd category and plays with it. Most kickstarter start off with a bad deal, but get decent or good when all the strech goals come in. It is fine to know know the value and force the buyers to valuate it for themself, but leaving the value question open (not answering questions about price differences), trying to increase the value and hype by using an existing and beloved IP and then not focusing on improving but makeing more deals for themself causes people to feel upset. I am glad I backed out, after seeing their fishy answer about the price differences.
When I say they dont focus on improving the game and try to promote a bigger value I talk about things like the double layer boards. Everyone whiches for them in Terraforming Mars and instead of giving them to all players and let all players have a better playing experience, they use the feature for promoting and increasing the value of the game. I am fine with upgraded components as kickstarter exclusive, but when all your fans wish for a feature, implement it and dont treat it as an extra increaing fomo.
Still I also agree with there beeing worse things than having payed a bit too much and it would be wrong to over dramatise the situation.
Honestly, I don't care that they decided to sell a different version of the game at target. I am also not upset that the retailer got it first.
My issue is that their update was treating us like idiots. Here's why:
-original date to receive was September.
-got an update saying that they are doing great and are ahead of schedule.
-then the last update blames covid and shipping for the reason that we are not getting the game before target.
If they had an agreement with target and their original date was September then there's something fishy about them blaming covid and shipping for the delays when the game is already arriving ahead of schedule even with the delays.. the contract had to be signed before the games were made so its most likely before the kickstarter ot shortly after.
I understand how big box stores work like target. They arrange their own shipping and probably have a partnership stablished with shipping companies so they can get products faster during times like these... at least faster than someone who doesn't ship as much as stuff like stronghold. Also I understand that because they don't come with the extras, their games were probably finished first. So for them to get it sooner makes sense and I don't fault them for it.
But come on.... dont lie like this. The only reason they put this half as*** update was because people were already posting about finding the game in target prior to this. They were caught with their pants down and made up an excuse because of the circumstances... except they forgot their initial delivery date.
Mistakes happen. Maybe its not strongholds fault and they had to cover for target, but like I said at the beginning... dont treat us like idiots.
You're right, of course, and I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I think it's interesting that game companies consider this is a legit business decision that gamers should just accept, but when the shipping crisis hit and suddenly costs exceeded what was originally charged, companies appealed to our sense of gaming community to say we should willingly chip in for additional shipping costs or wait another 6 months or a year without complaint for the promised project. If KS supporters are just a piggy bank and companies are willing to push the absolute limits of what they can do to make a profit, then don't come looking for sympathy (or more $) when some unexpected economic force threatens to take a bite out of their bottom line or forces them to reneg on their promises.
Agreed...but I would try to help support the companies that acted this way. Id absolutely pick and choose which companies I cared about.
On another note. How long until another weekly quack? By far my favorite podcast!
We should have an update this next week.
Honestly speaking this is a type of game that there was no need to rush on KS... and now even you can take early, cheaper in Target... 😂 Well done Stronghold
Yep
Did you get your shirt??? I need this!
www.meeplescrossing.com/products/coffee-beans-board-games-t-shirt
Idk why people don't realize these companies funding at 500k+ aren't using Kickstarter because they need you.
They use it as a marketing tool. And Target, Walmart etc... Is a bigger better marketing tool.
Get over it. It's a business.
Ya it's shitty, but it's what you should expect.
Yep, its absolutely marketing. Better than gencon.
Your video has been shared in the KS comments
Not being caught in this - mainly because I'm sure Ares Expedition will be published in Spanish at some point so better to wait - but yea. I mean, they do this, just treat them like they treat you; oh, you want my backing for a new project? Well, why dont you ask Target for money? I'll wait for retail, seems a better deal for me. Oh, is not such a good deal for you if nobody backs? Well... I wonder why would that be.
Of course, the problem, as you say, is the next time there will be the SAME number of backers and probably the same people.
Ares had retail all over it and they did not promise you would get it first. They likely manufactured everything at once. I would imagine that Targets logistics is very mature and experienced. So its no surprise, especially in this environment that Target was able to secure the product as well as get it shipped to stores faster then what stronghold could ship to its backers. Then It isnt even the same product so technically target isn't getting it first. I can't get behind this outrage at all and any response beyond saying you are disappointed is getting into Karen territory.
Yep, exactly agreed. Back or don't back in the future, by all means vote with your wallet if you care.
"What if it's not a good game?"
*Steamforged Games has entered the chat*
Ouch with the burns.
For example, I won't buy a Portal Games game any more. In every game I bought there were errors: wrong colours, misspelt words, contradicting rules, unclear rules, misprints, etc. A few years ago I said to myself: never ever, I'm done with spending my money and time finding clarifications on the web. But since I'm a completionist, I bought the latest expansion to Imperial Settlers. And there are issues with it too, which once made us stop for one hour to find explanations, which we are not happy with! I also bought some extra tiles and cards from their online shop and received an incomplete set of cards. What is their problem?? Other than that, I have successfully refrained from buying anything new from them FOR YEARS. They have some cool games and new releases, but guys, buckle up and fight the FOMO!
I agree with you, it's an absurdity.
Luckily I didn't back it because you said wait for retail and I always do what you say.... when it comes to Kickstarter. Note the disclaimer 😜
There is no reason to complain. If you dont like the deal, then just dont go for it ;)
Agreed, although granted it does get more complicated when you don't actually know the deal at the time of the deal.
See dinosaur worlds update with the pill asking the backers about selling the retail version at GenCon?
The level of toxicity in the Stronghold campaign was off the chart from day one. I will never understand the level of hatred for a boardgame... If you don´t like it just walk away and don´t give them money. But these people stay around for weeks writing comments and some apparently even backing the game.... unbelievable
Yep, KS comments can be...not great.
I don't mind the target release, I mind the lack of communication from Stronghold and how they interact with loyal customers. I got my TMBB and I'm done with this company.
Yep, I don't disagree.