Just noticed today that image of my private messages has been going around, and I'd like to say that if I'd known one day it'd be screen-capped and posted online for the world to see, I definitely would have worded "She won't allow it" better. I can see how that makes Viv sound anal or too controlling. But I didn't mean it like that, I simply meant that she prefers her crew to not say yes to too many projects, so they can focus solely on her stuff without them getting burned out. I feel the same way she does about my artists. Of course, we can't or shouldn't control an artist saying yes to however many gigs they want. But from Viv's and my experiences, we've had many instances of our artists taking on too many projects, which causes them to get burned out, be late with deadlines, their work quality drop... And so our preference of not having the same person work on both our things at the same time is just to save our artists from overworking themselves, which in the end makes both our projects suffer. Obviously I don't think I need to explain this to the creator of this video, but it's for anyone out there who's still on the fence with their feelings about Viv. She and I are close friends and I'll always defend her towards haters. She's a very caring and kind person - she's great! Of course she or ANYONE won't mix well with 100% of the rest of people, but for some reason Viv's haters seem to wanna focus on those stories instead of the big picture.
Hey Nico thanks for reaching out i'll pin your comment for visibility. I'm a little swamped with work at the moment but when i get the chance i'll mention your comments in a future video. Like you said the messages came across as compassionate but people on twitter somehow interpreted them as malicious. You'll probably continue to receive more tweets from annoyed people because you support viv, i've received the fair share of them myself. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment and i wish you all the best!
@@ayylmaotv Thanks! And of course I support Viv, she's my friend. If someone had a bad experience working for her it's none of my business, but also that's their hangup. It's ridiculous that this weekend I'm now getting messages attacking me for it.
Oh, give me a break. This is getting ridiculous. Erin takes normal conversations as personal attacks, literally none of the screenshots that she provided made Viv look bad.
Considering these are probably the worst messages (Erin Frost probably wants to use the worst messages for her argument) Really does show how weak an argument she has. Even in a normal working environment there is usually stuff far worse than this.
@Pinkish Raven because people hate to see her successed with her shows (they wanna start drama whenever we get new stuff from hh or hb, im pretty sure we get a new hazbin hotel character redesign at the end of every month, and its approaching), since the beginning :/ and this person is no longer with viv and jumped onto that hate train when it didnt work out for them, its so tiring- i feel bad for those involved with this bs
I honestly think viv is innocent without a doubt,all the evidence from Erin doesn't even have to do with viv,it's mostly about co-workers,it also paints the picture, Erin took on more work than she could handle and couldn't get it done before the deadline and someone else on the spindle horse team had to do the work Erin couldn't finish, also with all the evidence Erin supplied,there is no evidence about Erin being treated badly.
Did Ashley give Erin permission to post their chat??? If not, it’s pretty fucked up. I read on Twitter she named people who had a problem with Viv even though they weren’t comfortable or ready to say things themselves, which is, again, fucked up
Most likely not, I don’t even think she’s friends with Ashley anymore. Since Erin replied to someone saying that: *”Ashley has been involved from the start and was complicit in blacklisting. She claims she thought Viv was “gross” for trying to stop her from hiring me, but then turned around and did exactly as Viv told her and kept this to herself for over a year. I have no sympathy for her.”* So it sounds like Ashley decided to not hired Erin after all and that made her mad ://
@@elfenlied_girl1238No they don't. They just said that they aren't involved in the show anymore. They are still mutuals on social media and support each other behind the scenes. Stop spreading misinformation. Michael,Ed and Mick literally support the New VA's
Does Erin think that we’re stupid like I’ve watched the commentary community since 2018 and I know what an out of context screenshot is and I know how to read (even though it’s slow). All this is boils down to so that Erin got a job that she wasn’t ready for and didn’t finish her work, got, overwhelmed, and didn’t talk to Viv about it and when she was let go, she is trying to act like the victim. I know that I worked at a job for a few months even I know what she’s doing.
@@sailorstar3148 @Bob_Coffee Both of you hit it right on the head of the nail here. Communication is SO important, and it was practiced very poorly here.
3:53 Up until this point, nothing super red flag came up but this piece of evidence is terrible. It's very reasonable for Vivzie to look for extra people to help animate and definitely not great that she wasn't informed many animators are working on another series as well. How is this even relevant to her argument that Vivzie is a bad person...
Because if she is employing freelancers (which is what it sounds like) she literally has no right to know what they do outside of the work she pays them for. If she wants to have that kind of control, she needs to hire them as regular employees. The benefit of contractors is the reduced overhead and ability to get workers on an as needed basis, but it also means you have no right (sometimes in some contexts are legally barred from) to have any control over their life outside the contracting (this generally is more important in the sense of a contractor working for a competitor i.e. working for both Meta and Tik Tok). I have no clue about the accusations against Vivzie. But it is fucked up to contract people and then interfere with them having work outside of you. Again, if you want to be that involved in their work life balance and ensure they are available for you, you need to employ them as an actual employee.
@Druid of Scosglen Did you not watch the full video…? The discord of Vivzie to Dave was her saying that she just wished that the animators informed her so she could plan around it… She never actually barred people from getting other work. Also some of them weren’t experienced yet so taking on too much could definitely be problematic. Honestly it feels like you’re talking without thinking for a second and misconstruing what the evidence indicates like Miss Erin Frost.
@druidofscosglen2868 Absolutely. No clue if you were replying to me (it popped up under my youtube bell but honestly I'm fairly new to doing more than making a single comment and then not bothering beyond that on youtube). But without evaluating or agreeing/disagreeing with Erin's claims on how they felt they were individually mistreated, this stood out to me. And that isn't to say that Viv is some individual bad actor. It could be common in the Indy animation scene, and I've worked for tons of people as a staff employee who didn't get labor law (the whole not discussing compensation being a very common thing for instance (and some likely know it's unenforceable and bet on employees not knowing their rights but others don't seem to get that it's technically illegal and theirs a small (comparatively to the benefit) fine for it). So without going into Erin's personal grievances, to me, it seems like Viv doesn't get the differences between being a contractor/vs freelancer and being an employee. I might be being overly forgiving (I don't know her employment background or what she knows about laws and freelancing, and she might have always conducted herself this way if she did much freelance work). But I would be willing to guess she likely just is out of her depth on how to run a studio that mostly uses freelancers.
She has no legal right to time she is not paying them to work. She’s not giving them 9-5 pay irregardless of whether they have anything to do in the animation production line, she’s not giving them a salary, how the hell are people defending this? You can’t interfere and make the choice they’re overworked, she’s not their legal guardian, she has no authority over them they can have three or five jobs if they want unless there’s an agreement in the contract specifically stating otherwise, that’s why she’s going to other companies to pressure them into doing her a favour by not hiring them, using unprofessional, emotionally manipulative language such as highlighting the “personal importance” of an episode as a reason to violate someone’s right to seek employment. She’s doing emails like this because she has no legal grounds to control an employees use of non contracted non paid time. I’ve supported Viv in just about all the other drama, but as someone in the animation industry myself there’s nothing acceptable about what’s going on, it genuinely borders on being a chargeable offence or at the very least lawsuit worthy for lost wages, you can’t interfere with someone attempt to find work. Even if you worked 14 hours a day 7 days a week you are allowed to get another job and some people are so financially desperate they NEED to, animators not working in the big mainstream studios are nearly always on the breadline only surviving by taking on multiple jobs, the financial destruction Viv could cause to someone is no joke. If Viv wants permanent access to these animators labour, she must pay them a full time wage even when they don’t have anything to work on yet/are just waiting on preproduction. If you can’t pay, you don’t get the service. You can’t have both, she’s acting personally entitled to the “right” to make her show and consequently a right to her employees labour and time she’s not paying them for. They’re just employees like any other, pay money and they’ll work, you can’t superimpose your personal dream of making your show onto them.
@@Sanakudou You’re confusing legality with morality. You’re speaking on laws, but the comment you’re replying to isn’t. I understand your point, but it has nothing to do with what this commenter is saying. Clearly Viv cares about her workers, and Frost’s goal is to make it seem as if she’s a heartless manipulator. Viv told Ash that somebody wasn’t mentally sound, therefore looking out for both Ash and the person in question. Not even just that, it’s the fact that Frost *could not get her work done. I doubt that Viv would ever want to purposefully cost someone work, but I also doubt that she’d feel it’s right to let Ash work with someone who isn’t mentally stable. Your view is black and white, when the situation is grey. Maybe Viv shouldn’t have told Ash about this, even if she was looking out for her. However, it’s against many peoples morals to let someone fuck themselves over by hiring someone like Frost. Frost is dragging this out for as long as possible, and trying to damage Viv’s character by making it seem as if she as a person is in the wrong, when in reality none of this would be a problem if Frost wasn’t so intent on looking for things to nitpick just for the sake of harming someone. That behavior is not normal. I doubt any employer would want to hire someone acting like a mentally ill high schooler who just got dumped. Which, coming full circle, validates Viv’s reasoning for contacting Ash. Also, as an FYI, it’s fully legal for former employers to contact potential employers, even if the former was not provided as a reference. She is not “interfering”, she’s being honest. If her honesty makes Frost look bad, then that’s nobody’s fault but Erin’s.
Like I'm legitimately so confused, wasn't Erin JUST complaining about being overworked to the point of burnout while working on Helluva Boss? But now if Viv tells her artists they're not allowed to take on more work because they can't hit deadlines it's "blacklisting"? Which one is it? 😵💫
I wanna compare to this to that one time where one of Mr. Beast’s ex-editors tried to paint him in a bad light but in reality was trying to get clout out of it. The same way Frost is doing.
I think regardless if Viv is innocent or not she should make a public video addressing the whole thing and reassure everyone. Even as to why this is all happening in the first place. Nevertheless if Erin is this relentless they just only want attention
She can't address each and every little thing, expecially when she's juggling two huge projects like this. Frankly the artist is doing a great job of making an absolute ass out of herself with this 'scandal' of hers.
@@TheElementalHeroTheShadowL.D.W Yeah there was a couple cropped screenshots of vivzie from 2017 and 2019. If more comes out i'll do a follow up but i'm feeling a bit burnt out on this erin frost stuff.
Seriously it’s like she is a monkey caught in a trap clinging tightly to a scrap of food that she just can’t let go of even though it’s not nutritious at all! She’s hurting no one but herself will all of this. Heavens knows it won’t be doing her ANY favors on her job resume.
Someone just wants attention, you know what I did to when shit like this happened? I simply moved on and never talked to anyone again. I feel much better even if I do regret 99% of stuff I did and people I hurt. But hey, if you fuck up and can’t own up, move on.
@@Featheryfaith7 I was just saying how much they have spoke out and I know it’s about abuse I’m confused on what you’re saying?? Since this is all allegations no one knows for sure if it’s stable
@@Featheryfaith7 Alleged. Alot of the evidence is pointing against Erin. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and that includes Viv. That also includes Erin.
@@Featheryfaith7 Just becuase she said her opinion does not mean she is an abuser. Many people have hurt my feelings and disagreed with my opinions but that doesnt make them bad people. I'm sorry they hurt your feelings, but her opinion is her opinion.
In regards to her employees taking extra work she is basically saying yes so long as they get their current work is done first and inform her of what they are doing as they go along. Which I honestly think is important and fair. Employers should know what their employees are up to and whether or not they can perform their duty well and not overwork themselves. It's not much different than say a mom telling her kid they can have a cookie after they finish their dinner. And yeah those Discord DM's are sketchy *AT BEST*. I personally think Erin needs to get off social media for a good long while to re-evaluate her life and what she wants from it, go touch grass and see a god damn therapist. This kind of envious, shit-starting behavior will only ever end in misery for herself as it's incredibly self-destructive and will only make it harder and harder for her to find any kind of stable work let alone work in animation.
Eeehh.. I don't have inside knowledge on how SH hires, but I believe a lot of these folks are contracted work, not direct employees. Viv may be their primary source of work, but if they're contracted they are under no obligation to discuss other work with Viv. And honestly even if they are direct employees, what they do outside of their job with SH is still their own business. IF the outside work impacts their performance with Viv/SH, that should be handled with the employee, not other employers. Imagine if you wanted to work weekends, outside your 9-5 job, to make some extra dough for christmas and your employer told everyone not to hire you. I don't think Viv is a bad person for this, but it is unprofessional and mishandled.
@@LazyLemming2 I agree, SpindleHorse maybe have flaws here or there, but there has been no prove of Viv doing awful things to the employees and Erin's fabricating for what Viv said and the reason why she doesn't wanna new hire people right now is because there'll be too much work and she doesn't want to overwork her workers. She's different than any other company that would want to projects to be done really REALLY quick. I'm also aware Viv is a flawed human being as well (because of the whole political rampage with the FNAF creator but than decided to move on with her life), and she has explained that she might says stupid things or another stuff and knows she's not perfect. She's flawed but has a good heart.
@@LazyLemming2 I mean, yes, kind of, but I still think it's kind of unprofessional to be taking on a bunch of other work when you're not fulfilling your previously held obligations. Like, the reason she started asking others to not hire her people is BECAUSE it started affecting their performance at SH. It's a matter of professional courtesy to let someone know when you're taking on other work so that they know how much they can expect from you and what amount of that contractor's time/mental energy they're actually contracting. And your 9-5 absolutely has the right to stop you from working extra hours outside of them if it's affecting your job performance at the 9-5 (due to mental exhaust or other kinds of overlap)
@@LazyLemming2 it's a pretty common rule in any industry to inform your employer if you are picking up anything outside of your current job that might affect your performance. If I picked up a weekend gig and it begins affecting my work at my 9-5, that is a problem. Vivzie seems to be taking a muted approach to that with a "Yes if they can manage to do both without their performance being affected" which sounds more than fair.
I normally don't use quotes from Hell's Kitchen, but this line from Season 16 said it best, "When things went badly for SpindleHorse, the first thing you [Erin Frost] did was point fingers at Vivienne and everyone else, and you've [Erin] got to understand, that the only person to point at is you [Erin]." I'm not trying to attack Erin, I just feel this constant finger pointing at Vivzie is incredibly unhealthy for her. She either has to bury the hatchet now, or this obsessive slandering will the only thing Erin will be known for. That is all. Thanks for reading. (Edit: I had to tweak the used quote as, looking back at the comment, it didn't seem to make much sense.)
Absolutely Erin needs to be careful in my opinion because if they overstep too much Viv and spindle horse could take them to court over harassment and slander if they wanted to and if the evidence is these screenshots I don't think Erin has any chance of winning the case
It's so easy to debunk her "evidence" once you start to actually read the screenshots. In my opinion, Viv has the right to be worried about her employees, especially since it can be difficult to juggle work in the animation industry. Additionally, the term "Mentally unstable" can allude into many things, so Erin and Ashley should've provided more context in Viv's alleged claims.
She doesn't though. They sound like freelancers. What they do outside of her contracts is none of her buisness. If she wants to ensure thier avaliablility and work life balance, she can hire them as staff instead. She didn't (tons of reasons not to especially on a project with inconsistent work) that was her choice. That is the nature of hiring contractors instead of permanent employees. I have no clue whether what Ashley implies is true. And Erin may just not be stellar at a number of aspects of being a freelance artist (from what I remember from the other videos, she doesn't sound great at estimating time for tasks for instance). And if Viv feels she's friends with Ashley, it makes sense she would talk to her about a former employee trying to get a gig with her (though Ashley's account makes it sound fairly unprofessional in the way she discussed it). Viv doesn't sound like a great boss. And from what was shared of other project leads in this video, that seems to be a fairly big issue in the independent animation industry (not a huge surprise, startups of all kinds often have people who aren’t excellent managers either do to personality, or just a lack of experience in the smaller side of it (i.e. Just because someone can lead a small software team, it doesn’t mean they have the experience to lead multiple full project teams as a COO at a mid sized company effectively)). None of that is to say that Viv is a horrible person, but even under the best assumption her care for her freelancers is leading to her screwing with thoer livelihoods by interfering with them getting additional work. Eta: I wouldn’t call Viv talking to colleagues about giving work to her freelancers blacklisting. It's more similar to what Microsoft, Apple, and Google did by refusing to hire people leaving from one at the others. That was clearly illegal, but I'm not sure this is (contractors generally aren’t employees under the laws that ran afoul with).
@@malcire Everyone commenting on how Erin is in the wrong clearly has never been a freelancer or understands how Labor laws don't protect them. In my field if you inhibit a freelancers ability to get work that's so fucked up.
@@BzzBeeLee Yeah, it seems most people are looking at it as if they are regular employees (no competes and ability to dictate if they side hustle). I've worked in contracting a bit before (and with people who were fully self employed contractors) so I understand the nature of how those roles work and what control the contracting buisness actually has. That said it's not like I haven't worked for or with people who don't understand labor laws (whole lot of staff roles that had nondisclosure of salary which hasn't been legal since like 1933).
I agree. I would rather die than believe someone who only has screenshots as proof, especially considering how fishy this is. It's too easy to edit or even completely fake a screenshot. There's even a way to add onto a website's code and screenshot a 100% convincing message straight from your browser. I've done it before to make stupid jokes, it takes like 10 seconds. You don't even need coding experience to pull it off. I wish people would take more caution with who they believe on the Internet.
Absolutely most courts won't even accept that as evidence because you can cherry pick and change things. you have to have alot of it with other evidence for them to actually believe it. I'm in the group that ill believe it when I see it and I haven't seen anything for me to believe it. even the screenshots seem like Viv and her team are trying not to overstep and such and it's just being presented as them doing things intentionally.
Exactly. I have the same mentality. But it came from a life lesson. When I was young, 13 or 14, I was watching a video on TH-cam with "urban explorers" who explored abandoned places. There was a d3@d body im a dumpster that showed, they called the cops, video ended. This was the first time something like that ever happened on that channel and there weren't any clickbait titles anywhere else in their channel history. So I panicked my little head off. I ran straight to my Mom to tell her. She frowned after I explained everything and said, "I think it's fake." I didn't believe her. She then took me by the hand and brought me to the computer. Had me search up the area in the video and check the area for police reports on the crime. There were none. She had me thoroughly research it until I was satisfied. It taught me a valuable lesson to not trust everything you see on the internet. Not videos, not screenshots, not off key clips of conversations, or TH-camrs. The only research you can trust is one done with your own two hands. End of.
This comes off as petty and spiteful from the artist as she's grabbing at anyone, specifically Viv to keep from drowning in the shit storm she started. The cropped messages are a dead give away that more shit is going on and she cherry picked all the best pieces to try and paint Viv in the worst possible light. Hell, the message from Viv was down right meek. She came across as if she really didn't want to bother Dave and really didn't want to have to do this, not out of anger but out of concern. I remember someone describing her being as timid as a lamb and I can totally see it here in her small cropped message. Honestly she really needs to stop rather than doubling or tripling down and digging her heels in as people who are looking at the bigger picture are growing more critical and annoyed of her position. She's definitely not helping her career by doing any of this, she's not going to get her grand spotlight taking down the big bad SpindleHorse and Vivziepop but is making herself out to be a problem maker who blames and throws under the bus for her own poor time management skills.
@@whitefang2312 The fact she's using cropped screenshots and her story is shaping up to be 'I'm angry at the director for me over working myself and taking me off the project when I said I couldn't get the job done AnD VIv dId NoThINg!!!!' When she didn't get the response she wanted out of anyone she tried changing the angel and is now fully attacking Viviane over her having very real concerns for her company and what could be a time management issue.
@@whitefang2312 absolutely when I reach the point where I am a full blown artist with a business people like that I'm steering away from hiring like most business owners would you don't need someone that pulls in drama and then you needing to hire lawyers and sue them because then that damages your business as well even if the accusations were false
It sounds like to me that the crew members are the ones with a problem. As some of them decided to go behind Vivzies back to work on another project & once she found out of course she would react the way that she did, she didn’t want them overworked with multiple deadlines. She was just trying to help them out by making sure they weren’t given so much work, and Erin has the Gaul to say that Vivzie is the toxic one
It's not going behind her back. From what they describe, it sounds like they are contractors, not employees. They don't owe her telling her about it, or prioritizing being available for more work. It's part of the deal with having contractors instead of employees. Much lower overhead and you only pay on an as needed basis, but you don't have garunteed availability like you do with an employee (technically Vivian would be thier customer and not thier employeer)employees. That also means what they do outside of tasks they agree to, is absolutely none of her buisness.
The whole thing about Vivzie asking for more animators is absolutely fine, especially with the fact that she's being polite, not demanding. I have some very similar things going on at my job at a cafe, and this is the best way she could've asked
erin:*the person who never hits a deadine and goes out to another creator* Viv:*voices concern that people around her are saying to let go of her main crew because they are working other jobs so she begs the people who are asking her MAIN crew to look for other people so she doesnt have to let said people go* Erin:SEE?! SHES LIMITING HER ARTISTS!
Viv: hey, look, my employee's (a lot of which may be young and/or inexperienced with working on full shows) are in risk of burn out and my own supervisor is hounding me to fire them. I don't want that to happen. Please try to look for others Erin: OH SO ARTISTS CAN'T HAVE JOBS???? That's literally this argument. Also not to mention that not only does Viv asking people to not hire her staff that are already working on an entire show already to work on *another entire show* shows she worries about her workers as well as the future of spindle horse but this also opens opportunities for other artist that are not only popular in the public eye because of Viv. I am not saying that it's bad to be wanted for jobs because you're popular, but when stuff like this happens it blocks the gateway for other small artists who can't get jobs because people want animators from a known source because they're popular for being good at what they do. Everyone wants to hire someone like James Baxter who's famous, and not take a chance on someone who isn't as out there these days. This entire argument is just irrational, not to mention insensitive and aggressive.
“I can’t believe Viv called me unstable” **proceeds to post loads of evidence to support that assessment** People who spin public drama out of every slight personal scuffle are not people you want in your life. They make everything like walking on eggshells and refuse to communicate with you before gossiping behind your back
Also its been pointed out Erin violated NDA or put someone's work in NDA legal troubles by leaking the discord DMs which reveal Season 2 has at least 7 eps
Man, this is such a headache. While I still have some disdain for Erin, I do feel pity at this point. My comment on that video Why Everyone Hates Vivziepop has a reply that Erin has PTSD along with other mental health issues. I really hope she gets the help she needs because seeing someone sabotage themselves and others like this is just depressing to me.
@Jacques Hardin, Does she really have Ptsd? :0 Shd seems much more of a narcissist than someone with triggers. Ptsd is hard to live with, I am aware, but Erin's behavior is really just narcissism.
@@blaria95 You may have to dig a bit but Erin themselves provided screenshots where they came out with this info. The person who talked about it was me btw. Its also in one of the Erin Frost videos on this channel. I am speaking as someone with C-PTSD and ADHD, no idea what version of PTSD Erin has but they also mentioned they were abused. Another similarity between Erin and I. But UNLIKE me they aren't seeking therapy or medication. ADHD by itself is more damaging then most people know. I always encourage people to look it up so the stereotypes die out. But having that AND PTSD can have severe effects on your mental health. I used to be pretty bad off, I am still healing, but I can see similarities. And who knows? Maybe they COULD have sone undiagnosed form of narcissism, but I will only stick to the ones Erin has openly admitted. What Erin is doing is an unhealthy projection in one of the public forms of self sabotage I have seen. We can only hope Erin gets the help they need eventually and make a public apology.
@@nobinary2296 , Very interesting. :0 Perhaps she does have Ptsd. Thank you for this research. Also I'm sorry about your Ptsd. I know it's something that can be hard to live with. I have a few characters with Ptsd, or just trauma. Maybe ptsd in Erin's case makes her be explosive and obnoxious. Cuz after all, personalities are different for different people.
Please tell me if im wrong. but the the message from Vivz about not hiring anyone from her team seems to come from actual worry about her project not black listing anyone. or am i missing something
Exactly; her message sounds more like she doesn't want Erin to become overworked, as working on multiple projects at once can cause burnout MUCH quicker.
@@kingkingo1841 in most large companies for animation it's actually written right in there contracts that they can't work on a competitors projects while they are working for the company so her asking for people to not hire from her work force is not un usual
I feel like Erin has a tendency to use words that makes certain things sound worse than they actually are. The first one that hit me was "blacklist." In all of these examples, Viv doesn't come out and brutally force everyone working for SH to not work for anyone else, she simply sets boundaries and thinks about the things to come for herself and her employees. She asks Dave politely not to hire any of her crew because it could be damaging to the project AND THE EMPLOYEES. This supervisor wants to let all those who are working on other projects go, is it wrong for her to be worried that the show might not get finished at these certain deadlines or about everyone else involved? No. Erin uses these big bad words like *abuse* *blacklist* *toxic* These are all important callouts when that behavior comes to conception, but so frequently and backed with flimsy evidence, one after another, It doesn't feel *real* It's weird because if you format it like she does it looks like this. "Oh here's a whole lot of stuff that could be believable, but it has so many coincidences, contradictions, and some *weird* occurrences." "And she does this." "And here's THIS, not very useful but TOXIC." "This right here, INTERESTING RIGHT?" "Another thing she did to this person who is not me, but it can look bad if we try hard enough, I don't know anything about it because remember it's not me, but I'm going to include it anyway." "Breaking FDA." "HERE'S THIS PRIVATE CONVERSATON WITH SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T GIVE ME PERMISSION." "Guys I can't be in this drama because no one is believing me." "here's three more random a$$ private convos." "Breaking more FDAs." "This is it." "And ope, there was a hazbin hotel update: now let me conveniently release this *new* *old* stuff." Now this is dramatized, obviously, but it's a weird way for things to go down, right? Btw if you're digging for something, you will likely find it.
I mostly agree with you, but unless Dave/Far-fetched was poaching her employees (I.E. Intentionally seeking out and offering work to SH staff), then she was wrong to ask them not to hire SH staff. She should have made it clear to SH staff, upon contract/hiring, that they could only work for SH as a condition of employment (Not that I agree with that stipulation, but that would be the professional way to handle things.). If SH staff aren't meeting deadlines or standards because of outside work, that should be handled directly with the employee. Blanket blocking all staff from outside work isn't a good way to handle it because while James might be overworking himself and not making deadlines, Paul can manage his time just fine and turn in everything up to snuff. I do agree though that Erin seems to making a mountain out of a molehill and holding a grudge.
@@LazyLemming2 I think absolutely from the business standpoint she has, Viv would definitely not be doing the right thing if going directly to Dave to ask him not to hire any of SH crew, but if their relationship is that of friends who talk to each other often, then it's not really that wrong, like yeah, it's unprofessional, but if you're friends with someone you ask each other for favors every now and then. Not saying it's *perfectly* fine, because your analogy demonstrates how different things work better/worse for other people. Which is true. I do think Vivenne tends to side with her emotions a lot, so worrying about her crew's mental happenings is something that just comes as an impulse. Nevertheless, *now* this would never happen again. Also, this is something *new* ; the whole overworking SH crew. This hadn't happened when Viv first hired people, so she probably wasn't thinking about other projects being a possibility. Thus, a failure to recognize something like that could damage crew morale & the shows themselves. So either which way, it's not *that* big of a deal, but it's something that needs to be fixed. Thanks for sharing your opinion! It's super appreciated. Helps me to keep an open mind.
The thing is that they aren’t her employees in the general sense. They are freelancers/contractors. What she is doing is interfering with thier livelihoods. If she wants employees ready and available when she is ready for a project to start she either needs to contract quite a bit ahead of time with specific tasks, or hire them as employees. I.e. to explain why I think they are freelancers, a number of time people bring up if someone has work from her currently. An employee wouldn't usually need to worry about that. And an employer wouldn't generally hire permanent employees if thier are that many gaps in work (quite a bit in the way of overhead costs and taxes for that where as contractors don't require it).
@@malcire We don't have enough information to say that and even if they don't count as employees, they are paid for working on the project until they quit, are done, or get fired. Obviously, the studio has a had a recent problem with people being burnt out and Viv & others are trying to fix it the way they think is right, even though it's very unprofessional. I think that what's happening wasn't ever thought of when she hired the people that work currently for HH & HB. She has little to know experience running this type of studio so it's hard to know when these things go completely according to plan. The whole team is new to this, everyone, that's why everyone's so tired, overwhelmed, overworked. No one knows how these things work and they're learning. What stunts that learning, that growing, is hate and legal issues that prevent work from getting done and contracts being made. If your theories correct, I'd alter it to say that contracts were never made when adding people onto work at the very beginning, now they're realizing that you *need* to have contracts, requirements, restrictions, etc. and hopefully trying to get them done, but the thing with that- is that you can't just show up with a new set of guidelines and contracts and all that legal stuff. There's a process you have to go through, and it takes a minute. Maybe the freelancers don't want to be tied down with actual employments. Then they have to go through copyright stuff from Die Young & troubles with episodes and now drama and breaking NDAs. So, we expect this great business strategy from people, not just Viv, but people who don't know what they were doing at the beginning and are trying to fix it. I'm just saying, we aren't sticking to our hard facts. Fact: The constant new announcements from Erin or people like her generally come around the time the series SH produces an update or important information. That's a fact, whether that means everyone's lying or just a humble coincidence is up to chance and opinion. The only thing we can do is point out weird things that go noticed. SO, ty for sharing your theory.
@@thenarratorOfyourExistence From what that note in the screenshot said, what Erin said in the past, and what little we know about Financials on independent animation we know, we can reasonably assume they are getting paid per agreed upon work. Seems some of thier artists list themselves as working there as freelancers. That may be wrong (or not the case for all of them) but we can fairly make the assumption based on what info we have and the caveat that it’s hasn't been challenged yet. The fact that the announcements come out when Viv posts important updates... yeah, no duh. Erin seems fairly disgruntled. Right or wrong why wouldn't she aim for the most impact. Now, that isn't to say Erin is telling the truth, that her issues aren't just common in the indie animation industry, or that the truth isn't somewhere in between. It's free toons, who Viv is as a person or whether she is a good or bad boss isn't going to effect me treating it the same way I did before (heck, I'll still watch the Pianist and Polanski is a convicted sex offender and fugitive). And yeah, I assume a lot of this is growing pains from learning as they go as far as managing, employee/talent relations. Like I said in another post, these kinds of things are fairly common when someone with no upper management experience starts a company. A lot of it is stuff that are learned skills and degree focuses all on thier own. So it’s not surprising and isn't necessarily any kind of malice. But it does tend to negatively impact the company and the workers. TLDR: yes, we don't know whether it's true or not. But if we are going to assume that screenshot is accurate (which seems to be the case with representing it as Viv worrying about her workers burning out and have more important work for them coming up), then we might as well take it logically as for what it implies. Which seems to be worrying about availability, which is a majore concern with freelancers (since like other contractors they bounce from assignment to the next, often at different companies), not really so much with employees.
I feel as if all these recent tweets have done is show that Viv heard about people wanting to work on another project while either currently working on deadlines for Helluva Boss or behind in them and asking her friends not to take them on so that they can focus on completing there tasks since it's apparent it's happened before in earlier episodes. It's been over a year now since part 1 of episode 7 came out (as of the time of this video) so I can imagine the issues with missed deadlines and whatever else is currently holding up the second part of episode seven would cause her to worry once she heard rumors of people wanting to take on a different project while still needing to submit stuff for her. Since it's on her to present the finished product, and if it doesn't come out then it's a loss for Viv and her team.
Me as soon as I see the thumbnail saying "New Drama!": "This is where the fun begins." (again) Thanks so much for keeping those of us who don't follow every tweet & twitter thread from Hazbin religiously updated with this whole fiasco in a concise and easy to understand way. You rock!
It seems Vivzipop is getting the same treatment as Mr.Enter, with people looking for any excuse they can to harass her, and make her look bad just because they don't like her
I don't think that is an entirely fair comparison. John has faced way too much unjustified harassment and hate, but he has also done a lot of stuff that is very much worthy of criticism.
Anyway for anyone going "why doesn't vivzie just address it herself?": 1:13 look what happened when she tried to privately warn a friend of hers(Ashley) about Erin. The wording(mentally unstable) was imperfect so it came off as a cruel jab and immediately leaked to Erin. If imperfect wording (Which we near-unanimously agree with now, Erin isn't stable, something is wrong there whether its longterm RSD to go with her ADHD or just complete inability to see she is wrong) gets spun around as "see vivzie bad" how is she supposed to phrase it to anyone else, nevermind *everyone else* without backlash? What is the Exact Right Correct Way to word "the perspective of the person making the allegations does not line up with reality"? How would she do that without potentially siccing her huge-ass audience onto Erin? You can put out all the 'dont brigade' disclaimers in the world but helluva hazbin rakes in millions of views. I don't think she likes Erin at this point (who does tbh) but I don't think she wants to do that. I don't think Ashley is the bad guy here, she thought she was doing the right thing, in most cases "hey x said you're crazy" is the right thing to do. which uh, I'm guessing she regrets now since Erin won't leave her alone either and keeps namedropping her without her permission. She's tried going public about old shit before, it doesn't work and people still hang onto "uhm you drew a naughty snake shapeshifter when you were 19 :/". With these types of things(erin scenarios) the general recommendation is to not touch it and let the distorted person be their own downfall. which is why I find this series valuable tbh, a third party goes "hm that sucks", ultimately waits for more info then debunks accordingly. I'm glad we have more dialogues about how a persons' perceived social power doesn't mean they're immune to hate mobs now. I've ran into an erin-tier person myself, it's not easy, its stressful and it sucks when people think 'has clout in an online community' = "ergo they have no feelings and any upset they have about a mob is just siwwy their BigNameFan privilege will magically shield them from it all" uhh no it doesn't? Popular people aren't made inherently made of stone?
I said it before - i will say it again; Erin seems to have some deep seated insecurities she projects onto what other people say and feels like she is always being attacked because of it and she is lost in her need for validation.
This is getting freaking ridiculous! Nonetheless, thank you for continuing to cover this drama, even though it’s annoying for all of us Shit like this makes me wonder: “What kind of world are we living in anymore?”
Viv is a 30 year old grown woman trying her best to produce 2 animated programs that she is very passionate about. Her fans and crew are also very passionate people as well. People are just holding knives at each others throats ready to slit them at the merest hint of toxicity, trying to expose them for being assholes. Is Viv innocent? Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. My viewpoint is bound to change. Honestly, the evidence presented from both sides just cancel each other out and it's just becoming white noise at this point. Viv isn't a piece of human garbage, but she also isn't a precious sensitive lil baby angel. She's an adult, so let's treat her like such. Let's treat everyone involved in these controversies as adults, whether they're guilty or innocent.
That has to be the most dramatic way to interpret those messages, omg. Some work places don't allow you to work at other places, *because* it can cause your work performance to dip. It's not some kind of crazy concept. Erin really needs to just walk away from this, they're just digging themselves a deeper hole at this point
Yet again Erin is making a mountain out of a molehill because she can’t understand how the animation business actually works. It is STANDARD PRACTICE in many industries to have one project runner request that another company or person not poach their employees, leaving the first project scrambling. It is a professional courtesy in a field where there is a lot of crossover between contracted employees. These people are free to leave at any time, Viv is not requesting they never work anywhere else- just that the other project not poach employees at a crucial time they will be needed. Also, her supervisor wanted to let these people go completely and Viv took the high road by asking for a courtesy. Ashley Nichols has a nasty habit of mixing professional work with personal relationships and friendships. Through all this, she’s been the only person to offer any written support or validation to Erin, and it’s starting to cost her. It’s great until you have someone like Erin seeking validation for something that just isn’t happening and putting your name on it. Erin’s own behavior and public campaign against Viv has done more to harm her career than any behavior on Viv’s part. One of the reasons Viv has been successful is that she recognizes the show(s) for what they are- a business. Erin by her own admission was having trouble meeting deadlines and contributing to the project. In business, if someone can’t do their job…they find someone who can, or they’d never get anything done.
I have friends who refuse to watch the show or like the characters because of the original racist allegations When I defended her, my friends responded with “My friend would never lie to me, she wouldn’t, if she says Vivzie is racist she more than likely is” (that same friend left my friends discord server when she wasn’t added to a discord group banner art piece because she didn’t respond to the messages) When another friend brought up Episode 7 he said he loved it and I admittedly fan girled a bit too, and we talked about it and then our mutual friend interrupts saying “Can you stop talking about Vivzie please, I don’t want her racist homophobic ass mentioned in my server, please” I immediately chimed in “I’m pretty sure she’s bisexual and her girlfriend or something relating to her is of Hispanic descent… Kinda defeats the purpose of being homophobic and probably being racist too but I don’t know about her personal life” “Oh whatever she’s still a bitch” “You’ve never spoken to her and all you got was secondhand info from someone who called you and everyone else in here a bitch” **I was kicked from the server for a day**
@Piglin, Damn, kicked out just for that?! That's ridiculous. Also, where do people get the idea that Viv is homophobic? Her shows literally have Lgbt casts. That's not homophobic.
@Piglin, I am a fan of Viv's work, but I do feel some of her ideas are questionable. Valentino is the top villain yet has decided to be planned on being Hispanic. Hispanics have it rough of stereotypes and pimps rape: hence, this is a racist idea.
So because u told the truth, you get kicked out. Think your friend needs to check themselves if they're willin to dunk on their friends then accept that they were wrong.
@@blaria95 I feel like having the equally Hispanic Vaggie on the nominal good guys' team would mitigate any unfortunate implications behind Valentino's own minority status.
Also Ashley being upset about what Vivziepop told her makes perfect sense because there are three different conclusions able to be made on what went down with little evidence we have. 1. Vivziepop is a terrible person 2. Vivziepop did a bad job explaining to Ashley what was going on with Erin either by being vague for privacy and/or legal reasons or Vivziepop is just bad at explaining things in general so it came off as Vivziepop outing someones mental health or using it against them 3. Erin lied to Ashley or misconstrued things to portray herself as the victim I personally think it was a combination of the latter two because if Vivziepop was vague or bad at explaining then knowing Frost is like from twitter and this drama it would be a perfect scenario. What we do know from Frost's previous rounds is that there was a claim of Ashley joining up and ready to expose Vivziepop but didnt. Now based on the recent screenshot we know they talked and since it's cropped let's assume this was the convo about exposing Vivziepop. Now Ashley didn't go through with it. There's possibly two explanations 1. Frost claims Ashley got cold feet 2. Ashley realized there were holes in the story. If the former then Frost is a complete and utter jerk for doing this. Because now you threw another victim to the wolves without their consent. Forces Ashley to make a statement about being a victim when she is not ready to divulge that. If the latter then Erin Frost has just costed Ashley several work opportunities possibly unless Ashley calls Frost out asap because of the leaked DMs. But now Ashley can't because Frost is 100% willing to leak DMs and cherry pick context to try and make people look bad so retaliation is a valid fear. And now if Ashley does denounce Frost well Frost can portray Ashley as brainwashed or cooperating with the villain of Frost's mind which could lead to Ashley being harassed unless Ashley joins Frost. Now this is 100% speculation since we are missing context about the situation. If it turns out more stuff with context comes out that contradicts this I will put my foot in my mouth. However one thing I will admit that while Vivziepop was not intending to be an asshole and can see her point for her own projects I don't believe she should go up to other creators to ask them not to hire her crew. Because what your staff does outside of their job for you shouldn't matter unless its explicitly written in the contact that there's an equivalent of a noncompetitive thing also asking after people have been hired already is going to mess with peoples other projects to let their employees go or possibly violate some labour laws. I also don't think she should be the person the employees go to for a second gig permission for several reasons. But one of which is that should NEVER be the CEOs job. The situation with this should be handled by someone else. I disagree with this approach so much because if Vivzie needs to stop down for a minute in the future someone else who would be currently running the company with its current standards and practices could EASILY create an abusive environment. What needs to be done for Spindlehorse is a complete restructuring and contract updates
This is absurd. Erin complains about being overworked, then complains about a hostile work environment. When asked for proof, she shows her supervisor saying they don't have any work for her except something she said she couldn't do, and people making decisions without her. Then to add on, as if that was proof, she shows messages of people not wanting to work with Viv's team because Viv doesn't want them overworked, and claims that this is Viv being toxic? Hey, Disney has a clause for all of their artists and animators that ANYTHING you draw or make while working for them belongs to Disney. A-NY-THING. That's toxic. A director or executive making a decision to reach out to friends and ask to not give work to their employees out of fear for their well being is not toxic. If the artists were having trouble making ends, meet, they should have gone to Viv or Sam or someone and said "hey, I have nothing to do and need more work because I really need the money. If there isn't anything for me to do here yet then I'm gonna go find more work elsewhere until you've got more for me." Because that's called communication.
True or not (it’s not lol) when you’re THIS obsessed with bringing someone down, I would be concerned for your mental health as well. But as someone who also suffers from mental health, I can understand his pattern: Don’t get to finish my work, get absolutely livid because I had several other things I needed (or CHOSE) to do with my unrealistic expectations, get a mental breakdown what I saw coming AGES ago but still did the mistake (of overworking myself) anyway, pretend a miracle would save me, then have it all fall infront of me and blame it on everyone for my own undoing. “My sweet sweet work won’t get recognized now,” I would think. So now some other “asshole” will grab what I - and only I - made and now it’s ruined in my eyes. So now Imma lash out and AHEM COOOOPE By targeting the person whom is only concerned about me by OBSESSIVELY trying to bring her and her massive success down by manipulating someone like Ashley (someone who you KNOW people LIKE to enhance my LIES) because I’m hurt, so EVERYONE should be hurt, and now imma internally feel like absolute shit when others see through my bullshit so I should either keep this up for as long as possible, or quit and get some help. Or fucking SUICIDE. Sorry if this seems like an overexageration, but this is the pattern I could best describe to anyone who isn’t mentally ill (or is, seriously it ain’t simple describing these things) as blunt as I described it here. Erin, You did your work, you got paid, you got what was needed wether the work wasn’t done or not. You only dug your “career” deeper by not watching your unhealthy behavior during and AFTER working with Spinddlehorse. I could be wrong, but I fucking doubt it. But, if it ISN’T true, then, well, Erin, one advise: Please stop. Your coping behavior is so blatant it almost hurts because I KNOW what that’s like. And I also know it won’t end well for you. Seriously, lies have a thin cloth that time will rot and gift to the wind sooner or later. Get help.
Thank you. I also suffer from mental health issues. I have C-PTSD and ADHD. Its hard to explain to people that is what's happening here. Erin themselves admitted to having the same mental health issues as me. You can check their screenshots or look at one of the Erin Frost videos on this channel. I can't remember which one though. So I could see the self destructive mindset Erin was doing in a form of self sabotage. We can only hope Erin gets the help they need and makes a public apology to everyone.
Ayy Lmao how’s it go’in dude? I love your vids and updates on Vivziepops world, I don’t have twitter or any of the sites she’s on, so I really appreciate you keeping me in the loop ^-^ ~Alastor
I saw this shit on tiktok and just went “ugh not again”, even if Erin had a valid point I wouldn’t believe anything coming out of their mouth. Honestly Viv is right to call them mentally unstable, and I say this as someone who struggles with a lot of the same issues as Erin. No sane person would be doing something like this. Poor Ashley, I doubt she wants to be involved, if she did she would’ve exposed this shit her own damn self.
One thing im a bit confused about is if Vivziepop wants to be a professional employer, or continue casual like when they were just an artist on youtube. I do agree with her points that people doing two gigs at once is a recipe of burnout. However, if you dont want people to do that you cannot force them not to without a contract clause. Going to other employers with expressing discomfort with those from her staff being hired for a second gig is a bit much. Good intentions, sloppy execution. Now its not any of our business what these people are being paid, but I would assume no animator wants to take on more work unless they need that financial boost. I cant really fathom a reason an animator would want to double load themselves with work other than monetary reasons. Also being concerned for friends and their projects is a totally compassionate thing, but if you're going to people making a claim of mental unwellness that seems like a real bummer. Oh and if Vivzie does have a co-director/lead that wanted to fire people who work two jobs thats nutters.
Non-Compete Agreements are common practice in many areas of work. If you work at x company, they won't want you to work at y company. While on the one hand, I can understand the concern, as it shouldn't be up to Vivziepop to go behind the employees' backs and try to "sabotage" their chances of working at a second employment place and decide what's best for them. But on the other hand, wanting her employees to take their job seriously and, when showing repeatedly that they can and will overwork themselves, she's absolutely valid in wanting to protect them. Ultimately, I can see why people might not like this practice, but she's not a bad person for it, nor unusual. Also this person just won't let the drama die, will they? Keeping it going as long as they can. Wonder if it got them the attention they clearly want?
Non-competes are also not generally enforceable for actual employees (they are grounds for termination). These are freelancers, non-competes are pretty much never enforceable and in some cases straight up illegal (different states handle contractors differently, but a non-compete would often mark them as an actuall employee meaning there are a whole bunch of benefits and taxes and such). They would also risk your contractor being able to sue you for owed benefits (at a certain level of control most states would count them as an actual employee who is miscategorized) Or to put it shortly, a non-compete isn't relevant in this here as they aren't actual employees. Viv is essentially thier customer. Similar to if you hire a bunch of people to work on your house. You aren't thier employer, your thier customer. Means you aren't responsible for a whole bunch of things you would be if they were people employed by your buisness.
To be honest it feels like every other month something fake or something over a decade ago comes out. You never know what to believe anymore and to be honest I feel like it's one of the main things driving fans away from hazbin hotel/helluva boss
@@sagrawolf dude at this point things like avengers secret wars, tf3, half life 3, steel ball run animated, and the rapture will happen before they ever release season 1
i think you curating the drama is good work of journalism. I feel bad if like at any point this drama turns out to be super bad, than a one sided disgrunted employee from what i have seen from the few videos i saw you post.
Looks like nothing can be inferred from these posts, because the information is simply not complete enough. I am sad to hear that there are difficulties between the team members, and I hope they solve them as peacefully as possible.
Uh. I kind of hate the idea of trying to have a friend's back and the friend going behind your back to tattletale. Like, sure, it's "unprofessional" or whatever but the expectation of professionalism in a friendship is kind of unrealistic at the end of the day-- the point of a friendship is to be able to open up. And at the end of the day, it's true. Erin *does* seem mentally unstable, and Vivzie was trying to have her friend's back and warn her not to get wrapped up in all that and her friend decided to use that information to stir the pot.
Here's the thing about animation. Indie or otherwise. You HAVE to work TOGETHER, and very few professionals (indie or otherwise) are capable of working on multiple projects at one time, and I guarantee that doing that sort of thing when you aren't experienced in that type of work environment is a huge no no. Not just in terms of how the practice works, but also one's sanity. I can't stress this enough, DO NOT OVERWORK YOURSELVES. Do not accept more work than you can handle. If other workers aren't getting enough assignments, it's probably because the show runner is asking the same people over and over, instead of spreading out the workload, and those employees don't know how to say "No, I still have a lot on my plate already. Maybe so-and-so can do it?".
It is also a VERY common practice for CONTRACTS to tell employees not to seek work from other studios or outside showrunners. There are several reasons for this. - Risk of NDA violation. - Ideas being shared or leaked to other studios. - Conflict of Interests. just to name a few.
Whats wierd about this is why a showrunner would think it thier place to stop thier employees taking on additional jobs. If a show runner is concerned about thier employees over working themselves by taking additional jobs, that show runner should warn thier employees, not other show runners. At the end of the day, its down to the individual artists/animators if they want to take on two or more jobs, weather its a good idea or not.
When you work somewhere, doubling work isn’t a good idea unless you actively prove you can make both happen in a timely manner. If the crew is already having time hitting deadlines for their original work, it sounds like they either need more artists or need to concentrate on their original dedication rather than trying to work on multiple things at once. I actually agree with the manager in the sense that they should be let go if they wish to pursue other teams rather than put in the hours for the original one. I just don’t get how it’s possible to swing two full time animation jobs if they’re being paid for 40 hour workweeks (and that’s an if because we don’t know their salary or contractual hours). If it was part time, I’d understand but this sounds like full-time positions.
Just feels like someone who stopped a job because ‘management was awful” completely disregarding the fact they were a horrible worker.😅 had a few coworkers like this before.
Here we go again. In the first four minutes of this video Erin hounds on Viv for not wanting her workers to overwork themselves? I've been overworked before. It wasn't exactly in terms of actual work, but more so things in my life all happening at the same time. Because of this experience I learned how detrimental it is to take on more than you can chew. Back in late 2021, early 2022, I was taking a college course, having to edit a couple books and co-write one of them, I was in my school's band which took up 3/5 of my weekly evenings(two for practices and one to perform at football games), and I was taking normal high school classes, all after dealing with extreme personal and mental issues in late 2021. All this compiled together and resulted in me being physically and emotionally drained. My friend who I was co-writing a book with(it was an online Hazbin fanfic but it was the length of a book lol) made the painful but wise decision to completely cut me from it to work on my mental issues cause at that time I was in an extremely low place. And they had good reason to- I shouldn't have taken up the responsibility of co-writing a book where a decent-length chapter was being written, edited, and uploaded every week when I was dealing with all that was going on in my life. Something like that is not inhibiting you from doing something. That's looking out for your mental health and well-being. Erin just blew it completely out of proportion. Also she had no right dragging Ashley into it.
It really feels like Erin is Katie Killjoy...Since she IS a damn killjoy by posting over and over and over again just to give Vivi a bad name cropping text etc and etc
"I being debating back and foward if I should post the following " we all know after that someone will say something stupid like "this 16 y/o p*do is dating a 14 y/o" or "this guy is having a civil conversation with shippers of a ship I don't like *sob*"
I feel like it’s more of a not wanting your workers to be over worked with other projects sorta deal. The only one that has and good evidence is the one between them and Ashley. That one is also cropped Wich is a bit of a red flag.
There’s slightly more drama and screenshots now from a reply to Erin’s tweet by the account PrincessKittnArt. They have a lot of replies though from the last 3 days though, so it’s a lot to read thru when you go on their account directly to find those screenshots. The screenshots are of messages Viv has sent to someone about Kyra and June.
I think the issue is that Viv wants to control the workload of artists she hired as freelancers. Freelancers don't have to ask for permission to work on other projects because they aren't contractually obligated to work on only your project. If you want them to keep their workload to only your stuff to not overwhelm them, offer them an actual position. I feel like every artist is allowed to determine what projects they can handle and its a little inconsiderate to tell other indie creators looking for workers not to hire your freelancer artists. I'm a freelance coder and have worked on multiple projects at the same time because I'm pretty good at block scheduling my work. I'd be upset if someone I was doing freelance work for decided that I wasn't capable of working on multiple projects and told everyone else in our worksphere to not hire me for the moment because I was working on stuff for them.
Wait until Erin finds about the common-ness of non-comp or exclusivity contracts, especially in high skill fields, gonna blow their mind. You think all those scene-boarders working at big studios stick there for fun? They sign contracts tying them there for some number of years. Because they are indie, Spindlehorse probably didn’t think to do it, so this sort of behind the scenes request would happen to get the same effect. It’s not pretty, and it’s a convo that should be happening between indie companies hiring managers, if they have them.
its up to the ppl to decide what jobs to take and whatnot. Just because you couldn't handle the workload doesn't mean that others can't, let them find out for themselves and make money in stead of just twiddling their thumbs
I will say some of this is troubling…however most of these are just situations that are a result from just how messy indie businesses can be when they blow up and have a heavily increasing demand for more animations and a genuine concern of supplying animators, leaving the project. Regardless Viv should be held accountable for the parts where she did mess up, but so should Erin. The Ashley screenshot was the most concerning part. Even though it’s secondhand info we’re going off of i feel there was a professional line that viv crossed by saying that. I suppose Viv said that as a way a friend would talk about a “crazy coworker” but regardless Viv still has such a large influence and position of power that it was truly kind of a dick move for her to say that. Erin being an insufficient worker? Yes most definitely. But “mentally unstable”? Sheesh. I hope Ashley and Viv speak up about that. Maybe it was just bad miscommunication (hoping it is) As for Erin she has every right to be upset about Viv not letting people work on other projects (once again going off secondhand and cropped convos :/ ) However this seemed to be mostly a communication issues. From the previous videos it seemed SpindleHorse is mostly ran by discord for communication. Not enough employees communicating to Viv and Viv not communicating how much work needs to be done by a certain date. I feel like 90% of this drama would be solved if they didn’t use servers for their communication, lmao. Either way this looks like a gnarly situation, like everyone is at fault but there’s really no one to yell at for. I normally don’t comment on drama but this really caught my eye for some reason, lmao
Not letting your employees work for other people while they're working for you is completely normal. Burger King employees don't expect to also be able to work at McDonald's.
I do think that letting everyone go that works on a second project is kind of screwed up, that's like getting fired for applying to a second job. But even that is on Viv's supervisor not herself. They should trust their artists to know what workload they personally can take and work around that like... they currently are?
@@NocturneJester yeah it would make sense but I think artists should be the ones gauging their workload regarding multiple projects, not the boss of one project. Thats my opinion tho, I've got no clue on how they're ran or if the studio pays enough to support a person (seems unlikely being an indi studio tho & since they already let their artists choose how much they work according to the employees) in light of everything this all seems like a really easily avoidable conflict if they'd all just talk to each other more tbh
![เปิดคำทำนาย นอสตราดามุส - บาบา วานก้า ปี 2025 คนทั่วโลกต้องเจออะไรบ้าง? | แฉ 11 ธ.ค. 67 [2/3] |GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xmTIKWJUMPM/mqdefault.jpg)
Just noticed today that image of my private messages has been going around, and I'd like to say that if I'd known one day it'd be screen-capped and posted online for the world to see, I definitely would have worded "She won't allow it" better. I can see how that makes Viv sound anal or too controlling. But I didn't mean it like that, I simply meant that she prefers her crew to not say yes to too many projects, so they can focus solely on her stuff without them getting burned out. I feel the same way she does about my artists. Of course, we can't or shouldn't control an artist saying yes to however many gigs they want. But from Viv's and my experiences, we've had many instances of our artists taking on too many projects, which causes them to get burned out, be late with deadlines, their work quality drop... And so our preference of not having the same person work on both our things at the same time is just to save our artists from overworking themselves, which in the end makes both our projects suffer. Obviously I don't think I need to explain this to the creator of this video, but it's for anyone out there who's still on the fence with their feelings about Viv. She and I are close friends and I'll always defend her towards haters. She's a very caring and kind person - she's great! Of course she or ANYONE won't mix well with 100% of the rest of people, but for some reason Viv's haters seem to wanna focus on those stories instead of the big picture.
Hey Nico thanks for reaching out i'll pin your comment for visibility. I'm a little swamped with work at the moment but when i get the chance i'll mention your comments in a future video. Like you said the messages came across as compassionate but people on twitter somehow interpreted them as malicious. You'll probably continue to receive more tweets from annoyed people because you support viv, i've received the fair share of them myself. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment and i wish you all the best!
Hi Nico, and thanks for the info.
@@ayylmaotv Thanks! And of course I support Viv, she's my friend. If someone had a bad experience working for her it's none of my business, but also that's their hangup. It's ridiculous that this weekend I'm now getting messages attacking me for it.
Oh, give me a break. This is getting ridiculous. Erin takes normal conversations as personal attacks, literally none of the screenshots that she provided made Viv look bad.
I saw this and immediately thought “god fucking damn it. Again?”
@@nosyalt0991 You and me both man. It’s becoming very sad, pathetic and tiresome.
Considering these are probably the worst messages (Erin Frost probably wants to use the worst messages for her argument) Really does show how weak an argument she has. Even in a normal working environment there is usually stuff far worse than this.
When I saw the thumbnail I just thought
“Oh brother this guys stinks” (meaning to frost)
@Pinkish Raven because people hate to see her successed with her shows (they wanna start drama whenever we get new stuff from hh or hb, im pretty sure we get a new hazbin hotel character redesign at the end of every month, and its approaching), since the beginning :/ and this person is no longer with viv and jumped onto that hate train when it didnt work out for them, its so tiring- i feel bad for those involved with this bs
I honestly think viv is innocent without a doubt,all the evidence from Erin doesn't even have to do with viv,it's mostly about co-workers,it also paints the picture, Erin took on more work than she could handle and couldn't get it done before the deadline and someone else on the spindle horse team had to do the work Erin couldn't finish, also with all the evidence Erin supplied,there is no evidence about Erin being treated badly.
Again with this? At this point, Erin is just being a narcissist and envious of Vivzie's success.
Erin must think that we’re stupid and think that we don’t have any common sense I know what she’s trying to do
@@sailorstar3148 agreed.
its like if That Vegan Teacher was after Vivzie
@@bensonbank9258 Yeah, a clown who's just making up shit for attention.
@@Kingcole6 frs like That Vegan Teacher who wants to get attention from big creators
POV, Erin Frost discovers that burning bridges actually ends up hurting you when looking for jobs in the same field
The way Erin burns bridges makes me think of Ohm... If you know, you know.
Well deserved if Eren is this insufferable to work. 😑
OuuUUCH
Did Ashley give Erin permission to post their chat??? If not, it’s pretty fucked up. I read on Twitter she named people who had a problem with Viv even though they weren’t comfortable or ready to say things themselves, which is, again, fucked up
Most likely not, I don’t even think she’s friends with Ashley anymore. Since Erin replied to someone saying that:
*”Ashley has been involved from the start and was complicit in blacklisting. She claims she thought Viv was “gross” for trying to stop her from hiring me, but then turned around and did exactly as Viv told her and kept this to herself for over a year. I have no sympathy for her.”*
So it sounds like Ashley decided to not hired Erin after all and that made her mad ://
Dude the whole pilot cast has problems with viv, go on thank you ma goodnight and read ALL of black gryphons comments on the matter, it’s fucked
They actually weren’t that angry
@@elfenlied_girl1238No they don't.
They just said that they aren't involved in the show anymore.
They are still mutuals on social media and support each other behind the scenes.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Michael,Ed and Mick literally support the New VA's
Does Erin think that we’re stupid like I’ve watched the commentary community since 2018 and I know what an out of context screenshot is and I know how to read (even though it’s slow). All this is boils down to so that Erin got a job that she wasn’t ready for and didn’t finish her work, got, overwhelmed, and didn’t talk to Viv about it and when she was let go, she is trying to act like the victim. I know that I worked at a job for a few months even I know what she’s doing.
yES.
This goes to show how important communication is in relationships, even if it’s just work relationships
I see you everywhere
@@Bob_Coffee That’s why they always say communication is key
@@sailorstar3148 @Bob_Coffee Both of you hit it right on the head of the nail here. Communication is SO important, and it was practiced very poorly here.
3:53 Up until this point, nothing super red flag came up but this piece of evidence is terrible. It's very reasonable for Vivzie to look for extra people to help animate and definitely not great that she wasn't informed many animators are working on another series as well. How is this even relevant to her argument that Vivzie is a bad person...
And she was very polite about it, she didn't come off rudely, in my opinion anyway.
Because if she is employing freelancers (which is what it sounds like) she literally has no right to know what they do outside of the work she pays them for. If she wants to have that kind of control, she needs to hire them as regular employees.
The benefit of contractors is the reduced overhead and ability to get workers on an as needed basis, but it also means you have no right (sometimes in some contexts are legally barred from) to have any control over their life outside the contracting (this generally is more important in the sense of a contractor working for a competitor i.e. working for both Meta and Tik Tok).
I have no clue about the accusations against Vivzie. But it is fucked up to contract people and then interfere with them having work outside of you. Again, if you want to be that involved in their work life balance and ensure they are available for you, you need to employ them as an actual employee.
@Druid of Scosglen Did you not watch the full video…? The discord of Vivzie to Dave was her saying that she just wished that the animators informed her so she could plan around it… She never actually barred people from getting other work. Also some of them weren’t experienced yet so taking on too much could definitely be problematic.
Honestly it feels like you’re talking without thinking for a second and misconstruing what the evidence indicates like Miss Erin Frost.
@druidofscosglen2868 Absolutely. No clue if you were replying to me (it popped up under my youtube bell but honestly I'm fairly new to doing more than making a single comment and then not bothering beyond that on youtube). But without evaluating or agreeing/disagreeing with Erin's claims on how they felt they were individually mistreated, this stood out to me. And that isn't to say that Viv is some individual bad actor. It could be common in the Indy animation scene, and I've worked for tons of people as a staff employee who didn't get labor law (the whole not discussing compensation being a very common thing for instance (and some likely know it's unenforceable and bet on employees not knowing their rights but others don't seem to get that it's technically illegal and theirs a small (comparatively to the benefit) fine for it).
So without going into Erin's personal grievances, to me, it seems like Viv doesn't get the differences between being a contractor/vs freelancer and being an employee. I might be being overly forgiving (I don't know her employment background or what she knows about laws and freelancing, and she might have always conducted herself this way if she did much freelance work). But I would be willing to guess she likely just is out of her depth on how to run a studio that mostly uses freelancers.
Viv: *makes sure artists are ok and aren't over working themselves*
Erin: *dramatic gasp* HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!
She has no legal right to time she is not paying them to work. She’s not giving them 9-5 pay irregardless of whether they have anything to do in the animation production line, she’s not giving them a salary, how the hell are people defending this?
You can’t interfere and make the choice they’re overworked, she’s not their legal guardian, she has no authority over them they can have three or five jobs if they want unless there’s an agreement in the contract specifically stating otherwise, that’s why she’s going to other companies to pressure them into doing her a favour by not hiring them, using unprofessional, emotionally manipulative language such as highlighting the “personal importance” of an episode as a reason to violate someone’s right to seek employment. She’s doing emails like this because she has no legal grounds to control an employees use of non contracted non paid time.
I’ve supported Viv in just about all the other drama, but as someone in the animation industry myself there’s nothing acceptable about what’s going on, it genuinely borders on being a chargeable offence or at the very least lawsuit worthy for lost wages, you can’t interfere with someone attempt to find work. Even if you worked 14 hours a day 7 days a week you are allowed to get another job and some people are so financially desperate they NEED to, animators not working in the big mainstream studios are nearly always on the breadline only surviving by taking on multiple jobs, the financial destruction Viv could cause to someone is no joke.
If Viv wants permanent access to these animators labour, she must pay them a full time wage even when they don’t have anything to work on yet/are just waiting on preproduction. If you can’t pay, you don’t get the service. You can’t have both, she’s acting personally entitled to the “right” to make her show and consequently a right to her employees labour and time she’s not paying them for. They’re just employees like any other, pay money and they’ll work, you can’t superimpose your personal dream of making your show onto them.
@@Sanakudou You’re confusing legality with morality. You’re speaking on laws, but the comment you’re replying to isn’t. I understand your point, but it has nothing to do with what this commenter is saying. Clearly Viv cares about her workers, and Frost’s goal is to make it seem as if she’s a heartless manipulator.
Viv told Ash that somebody wasn’t mentally sound, therefore looking out for both Ash and the person in question. Not even just that, it’s the fact that Frost *could not get her work done. I doubt that Viv would ever want to purposefully cost someone work, but I also doubt that she’d feel it’s right to let Ash work with someone who isn’t mentally stable. Your view is black and white, when the situation is grey.
Maybe Viv shouldn’t have told Ash about this, even if she was looking out for her. However, it’s against many peoples morals to let someone fuck themselves over by hiring someone like Frost. Frost is dragging this out for as long as possible, and trying to damage Viv’s character by making it seem as if she as a person is in the wrong, when in reality none of this would be a problem if Frost wasn’t so intent on looking for things to nitpick just for the sake of harming someone. That behavior is not normal. I doubt any employer would want to hire someone acting like a mentally ill high schooler who just got dumped. Which, coming full circle, validates Viv’s reasoning for contacting Ash. Also, as an FYI, it’s fully legal for former employers to contact potential employers, even if the former was not provided as a reference. She is not “interfering”, she’s being honest. If her honesty makes Frost look bad, then that’s nobody’s fault but Erin’s.
Like I'm legitimately so confused, wasn't Erin JUST complaining about being overworked to the point of burnout while working on Helluva Boss? But now if Viv tells her artists they're not allowed to take on more work because they can't hit deadlines it's "blacklisting"? Which one is it? 😵💫
@@Sanakudou finally someone who gets it
I wanna compare to this to that one time where one of Mr. Beast’s ex-editors tried to paint him in a bad light but in reality was trying to get clout out of it. The same way Frost is doing.
I think regardless if Viv is innocent or not she should make a public video addressing the whole thing and reassure everyone. Even as to why this is all happening in the first place. Nevertheless if Erin is this relentless they just only want attention
Not necessarily a video since that might stress people out but a twitter thread just clearing some misinformation up might be a good idea.
@@ayylmaotv that's what I was going for lol but ya that would definitely happen other wise 😬
She can't address each and every little thing, expecially when she's juggling two huge projects like this. Frankly the artist is doing a great job of making an absolute ass out of herself with this 'scandal' of hers.
@@ayylmaotvhey have you gone through everything from twitter? There was more info that came up?
@@TheElementalHeroTheShadowL.D.W Yeah there was a couple cropped screenshots of vivzie from 2017 and 2019. If more comes out i'll do a follow up but i'm feeling a bit burnt out on this erin frost stuff.
for someone who wants to put all this behind her and move on with her life, she sure is having a hard time doing exactly that
Seriously it’s like she is a monkey caught in a trap clinging tightly to a scrap of food that she just can’t let go of even though it’s not nutritious at all! She’s hurting no one but herself will all of this. Heavens knows it won’t be doing her ANY favors on her job resume.
Someone just wants attention, you know what I did to when shit like this happened? I simply moved on and never talked to anyone again. I feel much better even if I do regret 99% of stuff I did and people I hurt. But hey, if you fuck up and can’t own up, move on.
Bing-o
I feel like if Erin is doing this so much is because either they really want justice or wants to milk out all the attention before it ends
@@Featheryfaith7 I was just saying how much they have spoke out and I know it’s about abuse I’m confused on what you’re saying?? Since this is all allegations no one knows for sure if it’s stable
@@Featheryfaith7 Alleged. Alot of the evidence is pointing against Erin. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and that includes Viv. That also includes Erin.
@@Featheryfaith7 Just becuase she said her opinion does not mean she is an abuser. Many people have hurt my feelings and disagreed with my opinions but that doesnt make them bad people. I'm sorry they hurt your feelings, but her opinion is her opinion.
@@Featheryfaith7 Say that again... but slowly...
@@Featheryfaith7 source?
In regards to her employees taking extra work she is basically saying yes so long as they get their current work is done first and inform her of what they are doing as they go along. Which I honestly think is important and fair. Employers should know what their employees are up to and whether or not they can perform their duty well and not overwork themselves. It's not much different than say a mom telling her kid they can have a cookie after they finish their dinner. And yeah those Discord DM's are sketchy *AT BEST*. I personally think Erin needs to get off social media for a good long while to re-evaluate her life and what she wants from it, go touch grass and see a god damn therapist. This kind of envious, shit-starting behavior will only ever end in misery for herself as it's incredibly self-destructive and will only make it harder and harder for her to find any kind of stable work let alone work in animation.
Well, something tells me she got fired because she was unable to follow Vivi's directions which pretty much explains her being envious of her.
Eeehh.. I don't have inside knowledge on how SH hires, but I believe a lot of these folks are contracted work, not direct employees. Viv may be their primary source of work, but if they're contracted they are under no obligation to discuss other work with Viv. And honestly even if they are direct employees, what they do outside of their job with SH is still their own business. IF the outside work impacts their performance with Viv/SH, that should be handled with the employee, not other employers.
Imagine if you wanted to work weekends, outside your 9-5 job, to make some extra dough for christmas and your employer told everyone not to hire you.
I don't think Viv is a bad person for this, but it is unprofessional and mishandled.
@@LazyLemming2 I agree, SpindleHorse maybe have flaws here or there, but there has been no prove of Viv doing awful things to the employees and Erin's fabricating for what Viv said and the reason why she doesn't wanna new hire people right now is because there'll be too much work and she doesn't want to overwork her workers. She's different than any other company that would want to projects to be done really REALLY quick. I'm also aware Viv is a flawed human being as well (because of the whole political rampage with the FNAF creator but than decided to move on with her life), and she has explained that she might says stupid things or another stuff and knows she's not perfect. She's flawed but has a good heart.
@@LazyLemming2 I mean, yes, kind of, but I still think it's kind of unprofessional to be taking on a bunch of other work when you're not fulfilling your previously held obligations. Like, the reason she started asking others to not hire her people is BECAUSE it started affecting their performance at SH. It's a matter of professional courtesy to let someone know when you're taking on other work so that they know how much they can expect from you and what amount of that contractor's time/mental energy they're actually contracting. And your 9-5 absolutely has the right to stop you from working extra hours outside of them if it's affecting your job performance at the 9-5 (due to mental exhaust or other kinds of overlap)
@@LazyLemming2 it's a pretty common rule in any industry to inform your employer if you are picking up anything outside of your current job that might affect your performance. If I picked up a weekend gig and it begins affecting my work at my 9-5, that is a problem. Vivzie seems to be taking a muted approach to that with a "Yes if they can manage to do both without their performance being affected" which sounds more than fair.
I normally don't use quotes from Hell's Kitchen, but this line from Season 16 said it best, "When things went badly for SpindleHorse, the first thing you [Erin Frost] did was point fingers at Vivienne and everyone else, and you've [Erin] got to understand, that the only person to point at is you [Erin]."
I'm not trying to attack Erin, I just feel this constant finger pointing at Vivzie is incredibly unhealthy for her. She either has to bury the hatchet now, or this obsessive slandering will the only thing Erin will be known for.
That is all.
Thanks for reading.
(Edit: I had to tweak the used quote as, looking back at the comment, it didn't seem to make much sense.)
Absolutely Erin needs to be careful in my opinion because if they overstep too much Viv and spindle horse could take them to court over harassment and slander if they wanted to and if the evidence is these screenshots I don't think Erin has any chance of winning the case
In all honesty, with manipulative and exaggerated accusations like this, Erin is doing a better job blacklisting herself than Vivzie allegedly is.
i hope that vivziepop is doing well and planning on making a card for her in december.
I agree 💯👍💯
Don't worry about vivziepop she takes breaks and her friends.
It's so easy to debunk her "evidence" once you start to actually read the screenshots. In my opinion, Viv has the right to be worried about her employees, especially since it can be difficult to juggle work in the animation industry. Additionally, the term "Mentally unstable" can allude into many things, so Erin and Ashley should've provided more context in Viv's alleged claims.
She doesn't though. They sound like freelancers. What they do outside of her contracts is none of her buisness. If she wants to ensure thier avaliablility and work life balance, she can hire them as staff instead. She didn't (tons of reasons not to especially on a project with inconsistent work) that was her choice. That is the nature of hiring contractors instead of permanent employees.
I have no clue whether what Ashley implies is true. And Erin may just not be stellar at a number of aspects of being a freelance artist (from what I remember from the other videos, she doesn't sound great at estimating time for tasks for instance). And if Viv feels she's friends with Ashley, it makes sense she would talk to her about a former employee trying to get a gig with her (though Ashley's account makes it sound fairly unprofessional in the way she discussed it).
Viv doesn't sound like a great boss. And from what was shared of other project leads in this video, that seems to be a fairly big issue in the independent animation industry (not a huge surprise, startups of all kinds often have people who aren’t excellent managers either do to personality, or just a lack of experience in the smaller side of it (i.e. Just because someone can lead a small software team, it doesn’t mean they have the experience to lead multiple full project teams as a COO at a mid sized company effectively)).
None of that is to say that Viv is a horrible person, but even under the best assumption her care for her freelancers is leading to her screwing with thoer livelihoods by interfering with them getting additional work.
Eta: I wouldn’t call Viv talking to colleagues about giving work to her freelancers blacklisting. It's more similar to what Microsoft, Apple, and Google did by refusing to hire people leaving from one at the others. That was clearly illegal, but I'm not sure this is (contractors generally aren’t employees under the laws that ran afoul with).
@@malcire Everyone commenting on how Erin is in the wrong clearly has never been a freelancer or understands how Labor laws don't protect them. In my field if you inhibit a freelancers ability to get work that's so fucked up.
@@BzzBeeLee Yeah, it seems most people are looking at it as if they are regular employees (no competes and ability to dictate if they side hustle). I've worked in contracting a bit before (and with people who were fully self employed contractors) so I understand the nature of how those roles work and what control the contracting buisness actually has.
That said it's not like I haven't worked for or with people who don't understand labor laws (whole lot of staff roles that had nondisclosure of salary which hasn't been legal since like 1933).
@@malcire I wonder how big of a issue contractors work not being finished was
I agree. I would rather die than believe someone who only has screenshots as proof, especially considering how fishy this is. It's too easy to edit or even completely fake a screenshot. There's even a way to add onto a website's code and screenshot a 100% convincing message straight from your browser. I've done it before to make stupid jokes, it takes like 10 seconds. You don't even need coding experience to pull it off. I wish people would take more caution with who they believe on the Internet.
Absolutely most courts won't even accept that as evidence because you can cherry pick and change things. you have to have alot of it with other evidence for them to actually believe it. I'm in the group that ill believe it when I see it and I haven't seen anything for me to believe it. even the screenshots seem like Viv and her team are trying not to overstep and such and it's just being presented as them doing things intentionally.
Yeah that's true
One of the screenshots is 100% fake
So i cant say how many other she faked
Exactly. I have the same mentality. But it came from a life lesson.
When I was young, 13 or 14, I was watching a video on TH-cam with "urban explorers" who explored abandoned places. There was a d3@d body im a dumpster that showed, they called the cops, video ended. This was the first time something like that ever happened on that channel and there weren't any clickbait titles anywhere else in their channel history. So I panicked my little head off.
I ran straight to my Mom to tell her. She frowned after I explained everything and said, "I think it's fake." I didn't believe her. She then took me by the hand and brought me to the computer. Had me search up the area in the video and check the area for police reports on the crime. There were none. She had me thoroughly research it until I was satisfied.
It taught me a valuable lesson to not trust everything you see on the internet. Not videos, not screenshots, not off key clips of conversations, or TH-camrs.
The only research you can trust is one done with your own two hands. End of.
This comes off as petty and spiteful from the artist as she's grabbing at anyone, specifically Viv to keep from drowning in the shit storm she started. The cropped messages are a dead give away that more shit is going on and she cherry picked all the best pieces to try and paint Viv in the worst possible light.
Hell, the message from Viv was down right meek. She came across as if she really didn't want to bother Dave and really didn't want to have to do this, not out of anger but out of concern. I remember someone describing her being as timid as a lamb and I can totally see it here in her small cropped message.
Honestly she really needs to stop rather than doubling or tripling down and digging her heels in as people who are looking at the bigger picture are growing more critical and annoyed of her position. She's definitely not helping her career by doing any of this, she's not going to get her grand spotlight taking down the big bad SpindleHorse and Vivziepop but is making herself out to be a problem maker who blames and throws under the bus for her own poor time management skills.
She's worsening her career if anything. Whether she's right or wrong, she has a lot of drama to her name now which turns off people from the get-go
@@whitefang2312 The fact she's using cropped screenshots and her story is shaping up to be 'I'm angry at the director for me over working myself and taking me off the project when I said I couldn't get the job done AnD VIv dId NoThINg!!!!'
When she didn't get the response she wanted out of anyone she tried changing the angel and is now fully attacking Viviane over her having very real concerns for her company and what could be a time management issue.
@@whitefang2312 absolutely when I reach the point where I am a full blown artist with a business people like that I'm steering away from hiring like most business owners would you don't need someone that pulls in drama and then you needing to hire lawyers and sue them because then that damages your business as well even if the accusations were false
It sounds like to me that the crew members are the ones with a problem. As some of them decided to go behind Vivzies back to work on another project & once she found out of course she would react the way that she did, she didn’t want them overworked with multiple deadlines. She was just trying to help them out by making sure they weren’t given so much work, and Erin has the Gaul to say that Vivzie is the toxic one
It's not going behind her back. From what they describe, it sounds like they are contractors, not employees. They don't owe her telling her about it, or prioritizing being available for more work. It's part of the deal with having contractors instead of employees. Much lower overhead and you only pay on an as needed basis, but you don't have garunteed availability like you do with an employee (technically Vivian would be thier customer and not thier employeer)employees. That also means what they do outside of tasks they agree to, is absolutely none of her buisness.
The whole thing about Vivzie asking for more animators is absolutely fine, especially with the fact that she's being polite, not demanding. I have some very similar things going on at my job at a cafe, and this is the best way she could've asked
erin:*the person who never hits a deadine and goes out to another creator*
Viv:*voices concern that people around her are saying to let go of her main crew because they are working other jobs so she begs the people who are asking her MAIN crew to look for other people so she doesnt have to let said people go*
Erin:SEE?! SHES LIMITING HER ARTISTS!
Viv: hey, look, my employee's (a lot of which may be young and/or inexperienced with working on full shows) are in risk of burn out and my own supervisor is hounding me to fire them. I don't want that to happen. Please try to look for others
Erin: OH SO ARTISTS CAN'T HAVE JOBS????
That's literally this argument.
Also not to mention that not only does Viv asking people to not hire her staff that are already working on an entire show already to work on *another entire show* shows she worries about her workers as well as the future of spindle horse but this also opens opportunities for other artist that are not only popular in the public eye because of Viv. I am not saying that it's bad to be wanted for jobs because you're popular, but when stuff like this happens it blocks the gateway for other small artists who can't get jobs because people want animators from a known source because they're popular for being good at what they do.
Everyone wants to hire someone like James Baxter who's famous, and not take a chance on someone who isn't as out there these days.
This entire argument is just irrational, not to mention insensitive and aggressive.
“I can’t believe Viv called me unstable”
**proceeds to post loads of evidence to support that assessment**
People who spin public drama out of every slight personal scuffle are not people you want in your life. They make everything like walking on eggshells and refuse to communicate with you before gossiping behind your back
“Aww sh*t, here we go again”
Carl Johnson, GTA San Andreas
Also its been pointed out Erin violated NDA or put someone's work in NDA legal troubles by leaking the discord DMs which reveal Season 2 has at least 7 eps
Man, this is such a headache.
While I still have some disdain for Erin, I do feel pity at this point. My comment on that video Why Everyone Hates Vivziepop has a reply that Erin has PTSD along with other mental health issues. I really hope she gets the help she needs because seeing someone sabotage themselves and others like this is just depressing to me.
@Jacques Hardin, Does she really have Ptsd? :0 Shd seems much more of a narcissist than someone with triggers. Ptsd is hard to live with, I am aware, but Erin's behavior is really just narcissism.
@Emma Butterfly at this point it might as well be. It feels like she just got pissy someone big told her to not be lazy and turn in work.
@@pippo17173 , Perhaps
@@blaria95 You may have to dig a bit but Erin themselves provided screenshots where they came out with this info.
The person who talked about it was me btw. Its also in one of the Erin Frost videos on this channel.
I am speaking as someone with C-PTSD and ADHD, no idea what version of PTSD Erin has but they also mentioned they were abused. Another similarity between Erin and I.
But UNLIKE me they aren't seeking therapy or medication. ADHD by itself is more damaging then most people know. I always encourage people to look it up so the stereotypes die out. But having that AND PTSD can have severe effects on your mental health.
I used to be pretty bad off, I am still healing, but I can see similarities. And who knows? Maybe they COULD have sone undiagnosed form of narcissism, but I will only stick to the ones Erin has openly admitted.
What Erin is doing is an unhealthy projection in one of the public forms of self sabotage I have seen.
We can only hope Erin gets the help they need eventually and make a public apology.
@@nobinary2296 , Very interesting. :0 Perhaps she does have Ptsd. Thank you for this research. Also I'm sorry about your Ptsd. I know it's something that can be hard to live with. I have a few characters with Ptsd, or just trauma. Maybe ptsd in Erin's case makes her be explosive and obnoxious. Cuz after all, personalities are different for different people.
Everyone: "I thought you were dead"
Erin: "My death was greatly exaggerated"
Oh god I feel so bad for Viv and the team. This is getting really old for us as bystanders, imagine how stressful it is for them :(
With Vivienne's ((Some days be like)) post I can tell she's completely exhausted of the drama that's going on.
Erin needs more then therapy at this point and Vivzi needs to get a restraining order cause clearly this person has an obsession
Please tell me if im wrong. but the the message from Vivz about not hiring anyone from her team seems to come from actual worry about her project not black listing anyone. or am i missing something
I agree
Exactly; her message sounds more like she doesn't want Erin to become overworked, as working on multiple projects at once can cause burnout MUCH quicker.
@@ReesesBees yes, but personally I don't think an employer should be allowed to ask their competitors not to hire someone.
@@kingkingo1841 in most large companies for animation it's actually written right in there contracts that they can't work on a competitors projects while they are working for the company so her asking for people to not hire from her work force is not un usual
I feel like Erin has a tendency to use words that makes certain things sound worse than they actually are. The first one that hit me was "blacklist." In all of these examples, Viv doesn't come out and brutally force everyone working for SH to not work for anyone else, she simply sets boundaries and thinks about the things to come for herself and her employees. She asks Dave politely not to hire any of her crew because it could be damaging to the project AND THE EMPLOYEES. This supervisor wants to let all those who are working on other projects go, is it wrong for her to be worried that the show might not get finished at these certain deadlines or about everyone else involved? No. Erin uses these big bad words like *abuse* *blacklist* *toxic* These are all important callouts when that behavior comes to conception, but so frequently and backed with flimsy evidence, one after another, It doesn't feel *real* It's weird because if you format it like she does it looks like this.
"Oh here's a whole lot of stuff that could be believable, but it has so many coincidences, contradictions, and some *weird* occurrences."
"And she does this."
"And here's THIS, not very useful but TOXIC."
"This right here, INTERESTING RIGHT?"
"Another thing she did to this person who is not me, but it can look bad if we try hard enough, I don't know anything about it because remember it's not me, but I'm going to include it anyway."
"Breaking FDA."
"HERE'S THIS PRIVATE CONVERSATON WITH SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T GIVE ME PERMISSION."
"Guys I can't be in this drama because no one is believing me."
"here's three more random a$$ private convos."
"Breaking more FDAs."
"This is it."
"And ope, there was a hazbin hotel update: now let me conveniently release this *new* *old* stuff."
Now this is dramatized, obviously, but it's a weird way for things to go down, right? Btw if you're digging for something, you will likely find it.
I mostly agree with you, but unless Dave/Far-fetched was poaching her employees (I.E. Intentionally seeking out and offering work to SH staff), then she was wrong to ask them not to hire SH staff. She should have made it clear to SH staff, upon contract/hiring, that they could only work for SH as a condition of employment (Not that I agree with that stipulation, but that would be the professional way to handle things.).
If SH staff aren't meeting deadlines or standards because of outside work, that should be handled directly with the employee. Blanket blocking all staff from outside work isn't a good way to handle it because while James might be overworking himself and not making deadlines, Paul can manage his time just fine and turn in everything up to snuff.
I do agree though that Erin seems to making a mountain out of a molehill and holding a grudge.
@@LazyLemming2 I think absolutely from the business standpoint she has, Viv would definitely not be doing the right thing if going directly to Dave to ask him not to hire any of SH crew, but if their relationship is that of friends who talk to each other often, then it's not really that wrong, like yeah, it's unprofessional, but if you're friends with someone you ask each other for favors every now and then. Not saying it's *perfectly* fine, because your analogy demonstrates how different things work better/worse for other people. Which is true. I do think Vivenne tends to side with her emotions a lot, so worrying about her crew's mental happenings is something that just comes as an impulse. Nevertheless, *now* this would never happen again. Also, this is something *new* ; the whole overworking SH crew. This hadn't happened when Viv first hired people, so she probably wasn't thinking about other projects being a possibility. Thus, a failure to recognize something like that could damage crew morale & the shows themselves. So either which way, it's not *that* big of a deal, but it's something that needs to be fixed. Thanks for sharing your opinion! It's super appreciated. Helps me to keep an open mind.
The thing is that they aren’t her employees in the general sense. They are freelancers/contractors. What she is doing is interfering with thier livelihoods. If she wants employees ready and available when she is ready for a project to start she either needs to contract quite a bit ahead of time with specific tasks, or hire them as employees.
I.e. to explain why I think they are freelancers, a number of time people bring up if someone has work from her currently. An employee wouldn't usually need to worry about that. And an employer wouldn't generally hire permanent employees if thier are that many gaps in work (quite a bit in the way of overhead costs and taxes for that where as contractors don't require it).
@@malcire We don't have enough information to say that and even if they don't count as employees, they are paid for working on the project until they quit, are done, or get fired. Obviously, the studio has a had a recent problem with people being burnt out and Viv & others are trying to fix it the way they think is right, even though it's very unprofessional. I think that what's happening wasn't ever thought of when she hired the people that work currently for HH & HB. She has little to know experience running this type of studio so it's hard to know when these things go completely according to plan. The whole team is new to this, everyone, that's why everyone's so tired, overwhelmed, overworked. No one knows how these things work and they're learning. What stunts that learning, that growing, is hate and legal issues that prevent work from getting done and contracts being made. If your theories correct, I'd alter it to say that contracts were never made when adding people onto work at the very beginning, now they're realizing that you *need* to have contracts, requirements, restrictions, etc. and hopefully trying to get them done, but the thing with that- is that you can't just show up with a new set of guidelines and contracts and all that legal stuff. There's a process you have to go through, and it takes a minute. Maybe the freelancers don't want to be tied down with actual employments. Then they have to go through copyright stuff from Die Young & troubles with episodes and now drama and breaking NDAs. So, we expect this great business strategy from people, not just Viv, but people who don't know what they were doing at the beginning and are trying to fix it. I'm just saying, we aren't sticking to our hard facts. Fact: The constant new announcements from Erin or people like her generally come around the time the series SH produces an update or important information. That's a fact, whether that means everyone's lying or just a humble coincidence is up to chance and opinion. The only thing we can do is point out weird things that go noticed. SO, ty for sharing your theory.
@@thenarratorOfyourExistence From what that note in the screenshot said, what Erin said in the past, and what little we know about Financials on independent animation we know, we can reasonably assume they are getting paid per agreed upon work. Seems some of thier artists list themselves as working there as freelancers. That may be wrong (or not the case for all of them) but we can fairly make the assumption based on what info we have and the caveat that it’s hasn't been challenged yet.
The fact that the announcements come out when Viv posts important updates... yeah, no duh. Erin seems fairly disgruntled. Right or wrong why wouldn't she aim for the most impact.
Now, that isn't to say Erin is telling the truth, that her issues aren't just common in the indie animation industry, or that the truth isn't somewhere in between. It's free toons, who Viv is as a person or whether she is a good or bad boss isn't going to effect me treating it the same way I did before (heck, I'll still watch the Pianist and Polanski is a convicted sex offender and fugitive).
And yeah, I assume a lot of this is growing pains from learning as they go as far as managing, employee/talent relations. Like I said in another post, these kinds of things are fairly common when someone with no upper management experience starts a company. A lot of it is stuff that are learned skills and degree focuses all on thier own. So it’s not surprising and isn't necessarily any kind of malice. But it does tend to negatively impact the company and the workers.
TLDR: yes, we don't know whether it's true or not. But if we are going to assume that screenshot is accurate (which seems to be the case with representing it as Viv worrying about her workers burning out and have more important work for them coming up), then we might as well take it logically as for what it implies. Which seems to be worrying about availability, which is a majore concern with freelancers (since like other contractors they bounce from assignment to the next, often at different companies), not really so much with employees.
I feel as if all these recent tweets have done is show that Viv heard about people wanting to work on another project while either currently working on deadlines for Helluva Boss or behind in them and asking her friends not to take them on so that they can focus on completing there tasks since it's apparent it's happened before in earlier episodes. It's been over a year now since part 1 of episode 7 came out (as of the time of this video) so I can imagine the issues with missed deadlines and whatever else is currently holding up the second part of episode seven would cause her to worry once she heard rumors of people wanting to take on a different project while still needing to submit stuff for her. Since it's on her to present the finished product, and if it doesn't come out then it's a loss for Viv and her team.
Me as soon as I see the thumbnail saying "New Drama!": "This is where the fun begins." (again)
Thanks so much for keeping those of us who don't follow every tweet & twitter thread from Hazbin religiously updated with this whole fiasco in a concise and easy to understand way. You rock!
This is going to be very interesting
It seems Vivzipop is getting the same treatment as Mr.Enter, with people looking for any excuse they can to harass her, and make her look bad just because they don't like her
I don't think that is an entirely fair comparison. John has faced way too much unjustified harassment and hate, but he has also done a lot of stuff that is very much worthy of criticism.
Anyway for anyone going "why doesn't vivzie just address it herself?": 1:13 look what happened when she tried to privately warn a friend of hers(Ashley) about Erin. The wording(mentally unstable) was imperfect so it came off as a cruel jab and immediately leaked to Erin. If imperfect wording (Which we near-unanimously agree with now, Erin isn't stable, something is wrong there whether its longterm RSD to go with her ADHD or just complete inability to see she is wrong) gets spun around as "see vivzie bad" how is she supposed to phrase it to anyone else, nevermind *everyone else* without backlash? What is the Exact Right Correct Way to word "the perspective of the person making the allegations does not line up with reality"? How would she do that without potentially siccing her huge-ass audience onto Erin? You can put out all the 'dont brigade' disclaimers in the world but helluva hazbin rakes in millions of views. I don't think she likes Erin at this point (who does tbh) but I don't think she wants to do that.
I don't think Ashley is the bad guy here, she thought she was doing the right thing, in most cases "hey x said you're crazy" is the right thing to do. which uh, I'm guessing she regrets now since Erin won't leave her alone either and keeps namedropping her without her permission.
She's tried going public about old shit before, it doesn't work and people still hang onto "uhm you drew a naughty snake shapeshifter when you were 19 :/". With these types of things(erin scenarios) the general recommendation is to not touch it and let the distorted person be their own downfall. which is why I find this series valuable tbh, a third party goes "hm that sucks", ultimately waits for more info then debunks accordingly. I'm glad we have more dialogues about how a persons' perceived social power doesn't mean they're immune to hate mobs now. I've ran into an erin-tier person myself, it's not easy, its stressful and it sucks when people think 'has clout in an online community' = "ergo they have no feelings and any upset they have about a mob is just siwwy their BigNameFan privilege will magically shield them from it all" uhh no it doesn't? Popular people aren't made inherently made of stone?
Erin is saying one thing but then the majority of her proof is fighting against her saying the opposite of her argument 😭
I said it before - i will say it again; Erin seems to have some deep seated insecurities she projects onto what other people say and feels like she is always being attacked because of it and she is lost in her need for validation.
This is getting freaking ridiculous! Nonetheless, thank you for continuing to cover this drama, even though it’s annoying for all of us
Shit like this makes me wonder: “What kind of world are we living in anymore?”
Viv is a 30 year old grown woman trying her best to produce 2 animated programs that she is very passionate about. Her fans and crew are also very passionate people as well. People are just holding knives at each others throats ready to slit them at the merest hint of toxicity, trying to expose them for being assholes.
Is Viv innocent? Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. My viewpoint is bound to change. Honestly, the evidence presented from both sides just cancel each other out and it's just becoming white noise at this point. Viv isn't a piece of human garbage, but she also isn't a precious sensitive lil baby angel. She's an adult, so let's treat her like such. Let's treat everyone involved in these controversies as adults, whether they're guilty or innocent.
There's so much drama going on with Vivziepop and the upcoming Hazbin Hotel series that it has gone too far. Especially with Erin Frost involved.😬
Yeah, i am afraid of what might happen next.
I mean can't the series just go atleast one moment without drama happening every second
@@alastor-yw7og Exactly!
@@user-jk6iu6lf6b Me too.
@@user-jk6iu6lf6b me too
That has to be the most dramatic way to interpret those messages, omg. Some work places don't allow you to work at other places, *because* it can cause your work performance to dip. It's not some kind of crazy concept. Erin really needs to just walk away from this, they're just digging themselves a deeper hole at this point
This is becoming a monthly ritual at this point 💀
Yet again Erin is making a mountain out of a molehill because she can’t understand how the animation business actually works.
It is STANDARD PRACTICE in many industries to have one project runner request that another company or person not poach their employees, leaving the first project scrambling. It is a professional courtesy in a field where there is a lot of crossover between contracted employees. These people are free to leave at any time, Viv is not requesting they never work anywhere else- just that the other project not poach employees at a crucial time they will be needed.
Also, her supervisor wanted to let these people go completely and Viv took the high road by asking for a courtesy.
Ashley Nichols has a nasty habit of mixing professional work with personal relationships and friendships. Through all this, she’s been the only person to offer any written support or validation to Erin, and it’s starting to cost her. It’s great until you have someone like Erin seeking validation for something that just isn’t happening and putting your name on it.
Erin’s own behavior and public campaign against Viv has done more to harm her career than any behavior on Viv’s part. One of the reasons Viv has been successful is that she recognizes the show(s) for what they are- a business. Erin by her own admission was having trouble meeting deadlines and contributing to the project. In business, if someone can’t do their job…they find someone who can, or they’d never get anything done.
I have friends who refuse to watch the show or like the characters because of the original racist allegations
When I defended her, my friends responded with “My friend would never lie to me, she wouldn’t, if she says Vivzie is racist she more than likely is” (that same friend left my friends discord server when she wasn’t added to a discord group banner art piece because she didn’t respond to the messages)
When another friend brought up Episode 7 he said he loved it and I admittedly fan girled a bit too, and we talked about it and then our mutual friend interrupts saying “Can you stop talking about Vivzie please, I don’t want her racist homophobic ass mentioned in my server, please”
I immediately chimed in “I’m pretty sure she’s bisexual and her girlfriend or something relating to her is of Hispanic descent… Kinda defeats the purpose of being homophobic and probably being racist too but I don’t know about her personal life”
“Oh whatever she’s still a bitch”
“You’ve never spoken to her and all you got was secondhand info from someone who called you and everyone else in here a bitch”
**I was kicked from the server for a day**
@Piglin, Damn, kicked out just for that?! That's ridiculous. Also, where do people get the idea that Viv is homophobic? Her shows literally have Lgbt casts. That's not homophobic.
@Piglin, I am a fan of Viv's work, but I do feel some of her ideas are questionable. Valentino is the top villain yet has decided to be planned on being Hispanic. Hispanics have it rough of stereotypes and pimps rape: hence, this is a racist idea.
So because u told the truth, you get kicked out.
Think your friend needs to check themselves if they're willin to dunk on their friends then accept that they were wrong.
@@blaria95 I feel like having the equally Hispanic Vaggie on the nominal good guys' team would mitigate any unfortunate implications behind Valentino's own minority status.
@@blaria95 Isn't Vivziepop hispanic?
Also Ashley being upset about what Vivziepop told her makes perfect sense because there are three different conclusions able to be made on what went down with little evidence we have.
1. Vivziepop is a terrible person
2. Vivziepop did a bad job explaining to Ashley what was going on with Erin either by being vague for privacy and/or legal reasons or Vivziepop is just bad at explaining things in general so it came off as Vivziepop outing someones mental health or using it against them
3. Erin lied to Ashley or misconstrued things to portray herself as the victim
I personally think it was a combination of the latter two because if Vivziepop was vague or bad at explaining then knowing Frost is like from twitter and this drama it would be a perfect scenario.
What we do know from Frost's previous rounds is that there was a claim of Ashley joining up and ready to expose Vivziepop but didnt. Now based on the recent screenshot we know they talked and since it's cropped let's assume this was the convo about exposing Vivziepop.
Now Ashley didn't go through with it. There's possibly two explanations
1. Frost claims Ashley got cold feet
2. Ashley realized there were holes in the story.
If the former then Frost is a complete and utter jerk for doing this. Because now you threw another victim to the wolves without their consent. Forces Ashley to make a statement about being a victim when she is not ready to divulge that.
If the latter then Erin Frost has just costed Ashley several work opportunities possibly unless Ashley calls Frost out asap because of the leaked DMs. But now Ashley can't because Frost is 100% willing to leak DMs and cherry pick context to try and make people look bad so retaliation is a valid fear. And now if Ashley does denounce Frost well Frost can portray Ashley as brainwashed or cooperating with the villain of Frost's mind which could lead to Ashley being harassed unless Ashley joins Frost.
Now this is 100% speculation since we are missing context about the situation. If it turns out more stuff with context comes out that contradicts this I will put my foot in my mouth.
However one thing I will admit that while Vivziepop was not intending to be an asshole and can see her point for her own projects I don't believe she should go up to other creators to ask them not to hire her crew. Because what your staff does outside of their job for you shouldn't matter unless its explicitly written in the contact that there's an equivalent of a noncompetitive thing also asking after people have been hired already is going to mess with peoples other projects to let their employees go or possibly violate some labour laws. I also don't think she should be the person the employees go to for a second gig permission for several reasons. But one of which is that should NEVER be the CEOs job. The situation with this should be handled by someone else. I disagree with this approach so much because if Vivzie needs to stop down for a minute in the future someone else who would be currently running the company with its current standards and practices could EASILY create an abusive environment. What needs to be done for Spindlehorse is a complete restructuring and contract updates
Visiepop: breaths
Erin: I have a problem with that here are the screenshots and pictures of how u breathing is bad
This is absurd. Erin complains about being overworked, then complains about a hostile work environment. When asked for proof, she shows her supervisor saying they don't have any work for her except something she said she couldn't do, and people making decisions without her. Then to add on, as if that was proof, she shows messages of people not wanting to work with Viv's team because Viv doesn't want them overworked, and claims that this is Viv being toxic? Hey, Disney has a clause for all of their artists and animators that ANYTHING you draw or make while working for them belongs to Disney. A-NY-THING. That's toxic. A director or executive making a decision to reach out to friends and ask to not give work to their employees out of fear for their well being is not toxic. If the artists were having trouble making ends, meet, they should have gone to Viv or Sam or someone and said "hey, I have nothing to do and need more work because I really need the money. If there isn't anything for me to do here yet then I'm gonna go find more work elsewhere until you've got more for me." Because that's called communication.
I feel like Viv reaching out to Ashley telling her that Erin is mentally unstable is kinda… proved by all this drama idk
True or not (it’s not lol) when you’re THIS obsessed with bringing someone down, I would be concerned for your mental health as well.
But as someone who also suffers from mental health, I can understand his pattern:
Don’t get to finish my work, get absolutely livid because I had several other things I needed (or CHOSE) to do with my unrealistic expectations, get a mental breakdown what I saw coming AGES ago but still did the mistake (of overworking myself) anyway, pretend a miracle would save me, then have it all fall infront of me and blame it on everyone for my own undoing.
“My sweet sweet work won’t get recognized now,” I would think. So now some other “asshole” will grab what I - and only I - made and now it’s ruined in my eyes. So now Imma lash out and
AHEM
COOOOPE
By targeting the person whom is only concerned about me by OBSESSIVELY trying to bring her and her massive success down by manipulating someone like Ashley (someone who you KNOW people LIKE to enhance my LIES) because I’m hurt, so EVERYONE should be hurt, and now imma internally feel like absolute shit when others see through my bullshit so I should either keep this up for as long as possible, or quit and get some help.
Or fucking SUICIDE.
Sorry if this seems like an overexageration, but this is the pattern I could best describe to anyone who isn’t mentally ill (or is, seriously it ain’t simple describing these things) as blunt as I described it here.
Erin, You did your work, you got paid, you got what was needed wether the work wasn’t done or not. You only dug your “career” deeper by not watching your unhealthy behavior during and AFTER working with Spinddlehorse.
I could be wrong, but I fucking doubt it.
But, if it ISN’T true, then, well, Erin, one advise:
Please stop. Your coping behavior is so blatant it almost hurts because I KNOW what that’s like.
And I also know it won’t end well for you. Seriously, lies have a thin cloth that time will rot and gift to the wind sooner or later. Get help.
Thank you. I also suffer from mental health issues. I have C-PTSD and ADHD. Its hard to explain to people that is what's happening here. Erin themselves admitted to having the same mental health issues as me.
You can check their screenshots or look at one of the Erin Frost videos on this channel. I can't remember which one though.
So I could see the self destructive mindset Erin was doing in a form of self sabotage.
We can only hope Erin gets the help they need and makes a public apology to everyone.
Ayy Lmao how’s it go’in dude? I love your vids and updates on Vivziepops world, I don’t have twitter or any of the sites she’s on, so I really appreciate you keeping me in the loop
^-^
~Alastor
There will always be drama on the internet
Yep it’s as certain as the sun rising in the east. A tale as old as time. A song as old as rhyme.
I saw this shit on tiktok and just went “ugh not again”, even if Erin had a valid point I wouldn’t believe anything coming out of their mouth. Honestly Viv is right to call them mentally unstable, and I say this as someone who struggles with a lot of the same issues as Erin. No sane person would be doing something like this. Poor Ashley, I doubt she wants to be involved, if she did she would’ve exposed this shit her own damn self.
One thing im a bit confused about is if Vivziepop wants to be a professional employer, or continue casual like when they were just an artist on youtube. I do agree with her points that people doing two gigs at once is a recipe of burnout. However, if you dont want people to do that you cannot force them not to without a contract clause. Going to other employers with expressing discomfort with those from her staff being hired for a second gig is a bit much. Good intentions, sloppy execution. Now its not any of our business what these people are being paid, but I would assume no animator wants to take on more work unless they need that financial boost. I cant really fathom a reason an animator would want to double load themselves with work other than monetary reasons. Also being concerned for friends and their projects is a totally compassionate thing, but if you're going to people making a claim of mental unwellness that seems like a real bummer. Oh and if Vivzie does have a co-director/lead that wanted to fire people who work two jobs thats nutters.
Non-Compete Agreements are common practice in many areas of work. If you work at x company, they won't want you to work at y company. While on the one hand, I can understand the concern, as it shouldn't be up to Vivziepop to go behind the employees' backs and try to "sabotage" their chances of working at a second employment place and decide what's best for them. But on the other hand, wanting her employees to take their job seriously and, when showing repeatedly that they can and will overwork themselves, she's absolutely valid in wanting to protect them.
Ultimately, I can see why people might not like this practice, but she's not a bad person for it, nor unusual.
Also this person just won't let the drama die, will they? Keeping it going as long as they can. Wonder if it got them the attention they clearly want?
Non-competes are also not generally enforceable for actual employees (they are grounds for termination). These are freelancers, non-competes are pretty much never enforceable and in some cases straight up illegal (different states handle contractors differently, but a non-compete would often mark them as an actuall employee meaning there are a whole bunch of benefits and taxes and such). They would also risk your contractor being able to sue you for owed benefits (at a certain level of control most states would count them as an actual employee who is miscategorized)
Or to put it shortly, a non-compete isn't relevant in this here as they aren't actual employees. Viv is essentially thier customer. Similar to if you hire a bunch of people to work on your house. You aren't thier employer, your thier customer. Means you aren't responsible for a whole bunch of things you would be if they were people employed by your buisness.
Exhibit C: Erin Frost misunderstands a manager planning for future workloads for a shared workforce as blacklisting.
To be honest it feels like every other month something fake or something over a decade ago comes out. You never know what to believe anymore and to be honest I feel like it's one of the main things driving fans away from hazbin hotel/helluva boss
Wait for next summer they will go insane with trying to sabotage hazbin hotels air date
@@sagrawolf it's like bro just please let us have season 1 already
@@asaknight321 yup but they’ll try to make sure it fails so seasons two and three are cancelled
@@sagrawolf dude at this point things like avengers secret wars, tf3, half life 3, steel ball run animated, and the rapture will happen before they ever release season 1
Going though the comments and I found at least 3 people wanting to cancel viv for dumb reasons
can Vivziepop have at least ONE BREAK FROM THE DAMN DRAMA !?
i think you curating the drama is good work of journalism. I feel bad if like at any point this drama turns out to be super bad, than a one sided disgrunted employee from what i have seen from the few videos i saw you post.
The entire situation is a ballache and confusing to me
But hey ENA maze in the background
Imagine being angry because someone else is successful instead of being inspired to become better. Just sad really.
Looks like nothing can be inferred from these posts, because the information is simply not complete enough. I am sad to hear that there are difficulties between the team members, and I hope they solve them as peacefully as possible.
Evil capitalist boss forces their workers to *NOT* over work.
How evil, smh.
Can Erin stop spawning drama out of nowhere
Uh. I kind of hate the idea of trying to have a friend's back and the friend going behind your back to tattletale.
Like, sure, it's "unprofessional" or whatever but the expectation of professionalism in a friendship is kind of unrealistic at the end of the day-- the point of a friendship is to be able to open up.
And at the end of the day, it's true. Erin *does* seem mentally unstable, and Vivzie was trying to have her friend's back and warn her not to get wrapped up in all that and her friend decided to use that information to stir the pot.
Here's the thing about animation. Indie or otherwise.
You HAVE to work TOGETHER, and very few professionals (indie or otherwise) are capable of working on multiple projects at one time, and I guarantee that doing that sort of thing when you aren't experienced in that type of work environment is a huge no no. Not just in terms of how the practice works, but also one's sanity. I can't stress this enough, DO NOT OVERWORK YOURSELVES. Do not accept more work than you can handle. If other workers aren't getting enough assignments, it's probably because the show runner is asking the same people over and over, instead of spreading out the workload, and those employees don't know how to say "No, I still have a lot on my plate already. Maybe so-and-so can do it?".
It is also a VERY common practice for CONTRACTS to tell employees not to seek work from other studios or outside showrunners. There are several reasons for this.
- Risk of NDA violation.
- Ideas being shared or leaked to other studios.
- Conflict of Interests.
just to name a few.
love the ena footage in the background! ena is a series that is very dear to me and combining it with the vivzie universe is super cool :D
Whats wierd about this is why a showrunner would think it thier place to stop thier employees taking on additional jobs. If a show runner is concerned about thier employees over working themselves by taking additional jobs, that show runner should warn thier employees, not other show runners. At the end of the day, its down to the individual artists/animators if they want to take on two or more jobs, weather its a good idea or not.
When you work somewhere, doubling work isn’t a good idea unless you actively prove you can make both happen in a timely manner. If the crew is already having time hitting deadlines for their original work, it sounds like they either need more artists or need to concentrate on their original dedication rather than trying to work on multiple things at once. I actually agree with the manager in the sense that they should be let go if they wish to pursue other teams rather than put in the hours for the original one. I just don’t get how it’s possible to swing two full time animation jobs if they’re being paid for 40 hour workweeks (and that’s an if because we don’t know their salary or contractual hours). If it was part time, I’d understand but this sounds like full-time positions.
Poor Viv, SH, Ashlie, everyone who works on HH & HB. This just always suckeths.
Erin Frost needs to be sued.
Everyone, HELP VIVIENNE MEDRANO!
Gimme a break Erin.
Just feels like someone who stopped a job because ‘management was awful” completely disregarding the fact they were a horrible worker.😅 had a few coworkers like this before.
Here we go again.
In the first four minutes of this video Erin hounds on Viv for not wanting her workers to overwork themselves?
I've been overworked before. It wasn't exactly in terms of actual work, but more so things in my life all happening at the same time. Because of this experience I learned how detrimental it is to take on more than you can chew.
Back in late 2021, early 2022, I was taking a college course, having to edit a couple books and co-write one of them, I was in my school's band which took up 3/5 of my weekly evenings(two for practices and one to perform at football games), and I was taking normal high school classes, all after dealing with extreme personal and mental issues in late 2021. All this compiled together and resulted in me being physically and emotionally drained. My friend who I was co-writing a book with(it was an online Hazbin fanfic but it was the length of a book lol) made the painful but wise decision to completely cut me from it to work on my mental issues cause at that time I was in an extremely low place. And they had good reason to- I shouldn't have taken up the responsibility of co-writing a book where a decent-length chapter was being written, edited, and uploaded every week when I was dealing with all that was going on in my life.
Something like that is not inhibiting you from doing something. That's looking out for your mental health and well-being. Erin just blew it completely out of proportion. Also she had no right dragging Ashley into it.
Every part of this drama gets more and more insane.
**Bruh this drama has more phases than an average character in a Friday Night Funkin' Mod-*
It really feels like Erin is Katie Killjoy...Since she IS a damn killjoy by posting over and over and over again just to give Vivi a bad name cropping text etc and etc
I think Loona would be a much better comparison
@@bored_person Agreed
"I being debating back and foward if I should post the following " we all know after that someone will say something stupid like "this 16 y/o p*do is dating a 14 y/o" or "this guy is having a civil conversation with shippers of a ship I don't like *sob*"
If it's anything to add this just makes Viv appear to an even better boss than we thought she already was
The frieza of drama returns
I feel like it’s more of a not wanting your workers to be over worked with other projects sorta deal. The only one that has and good evidence is the one between them and Ashley. That one is also cropped Wich is a bit of a red flag.
This makes way more since! The trues always comes out in the end.
There’s slightly more drama and screenshots now from a reply to Erin’s tweet by the account PrincessKittnArt. They have a lot of replies though from the last 3 days though, so it’s a lot to read thru when you go on their account directly to find those screenshots. The screenshots are of messages Viv has sent to someone about Kyra and June.
How dare vivie… wants her employees to not over work themselves?
I think its funny how Viv allowed Erin to work on another project
Almost like she wanted to be ASKED FIRST
I hope all this drama won't kill Erin Frosts chances of working in Animation in the future because that would really be a shame
/s
i don't believe anyone anymore. I don't trust in Erin's evidence, and Viv hasn't showed up to defend herself. So, who knows
i wonder if because nda violations and cease and desists are involved viv was advised not to interract with her
Viv didn't want to stress and harm her artists and everything by doubling their work. And on one of her most proud episodes. It makes no sense.
I think the issue is that Viv wants to control the workload of artists she hired as freelancers. Freelancers don't have to ask for permission to work on other projects because they aren't contractually obligated to work on only your project.
If you want them to keep their workload to only your stuff to not overwhelm them, offer them an actual position. I feel like every artist is allowed to determine what projects they can handle and its a little inconsiderate to tell other indie creators looking for workers not to hire your freelancer artists.
I'm a freelance coder and have worked on multiple projects at the same time because I'm pretty good at block scheduling my work. I'd be upset if someone I was doing freelance work for decided that I wasn't capable of working on multiple projects and told everyone else in our worksphere to not hire me for the moment because I was working on stuff for them.
Wait until Erin finds about the common-ness of non-comp or exclusivity contracts, especially in high skill fields, gonna blow their mind. You think all those scene-boarders working at big studios stick there for fun? They sign contracts tying them there for some number of years. Because they are indie, Spindlehorse probably didn’t think to do it, so this sort of behind the scenes request would happen to get the same effect. It’s not pretty, and it’s a convo that should be happening between indie companies hiring managers, if they have them.
This is like a boxing match between 2 main characters and both cant lose
Saying, this person is already working for me, I’d like to ensure they aren’t being burned out. Seems like a pretty reasonable thing to say
Loved the sir pelo meme🤣
its up to the ppl to decide what jobs to take and whatnot. Just because you couldn't handle the workload doesn't mean that others can't, let them find out for themselves and make money in stead of just twiddling their thumbs
I will say some of this is troubling…however most of these are just situations that are a result from just how messy indie businesses can be when they blow up and have a heavily increasing demand for more animations and a genuine concern of supplying animators, leaving the project.
Regardless Viv should be held accountable for the parts where she did mess up, but so should Erin.
The Ashley screenshot was the most concerning part. Even though it’s secondhand info we’re going off of i feel there was a professional line that viv crossed by saying that. I suppose Viv said that as a way a friend would talk about a “crazy coworker” but regardless Viv still has such a large influence and position of power that it was truly kind of a dick move for her to say that. Erin being an insufficient worker? Yes most definitely. But “mentally unstable”? Sheesh. I hope Ashley and Viv speak up about that. Maybe it was just bad miscommunication (hoping it is)
As for Erin she has every right to be upset about Viv not letting people work on other projects (once again going off secondhand and cropped convos :/ ) However this seemed to be mostly a communication issues. From the previous videos it seemed SpindleHorse is mostly ran by discord for communication. Not enough employees communicating to Viv and Viv not communicating how much work needs to be done by a certain date.
I feel like 90% of this drama would be solved if they didn’t use servers for their communication, lmao.
Either way this looks like a gnarly situation, like everyone is at fault but there’s really no one to yell at for. I normally don’t comment on drama but this really caught my eye for some reason, lmao
Not letting your employees work for other people while they're working for you is completely normal. Burger King employees don't expect to also be able to work at McDonald's.
I do think that letting everyone go that works on a second project is kind of screwed up, that's like getting fired for applying to a second job. But even that is on Viv's supervisor not herself. They should trust their artists to know what workload they personally can take and work around that like... they currently are?
@@NocturneJester yeah it would make sense but I think artists should be the ones gauging their workload regarding multiple projects, not the boss of one project. Thats my opinion tho, I've got no clue on how they're ran or if the studio pays enough to support a person (seems unlikely being an indi studio tho & since they already let their artists choose how much they work according to the employees) in light of everything this all seems like a really easily avoidable conflict if they'd all just talk to each other more tbh
Round 3, FIGHT!
Edit: 3 likes!
Ho joy! Another Erin Frost Drama! That mean that another Helluva Boss episode is incoming.