4WD snatch straps really suck: Here's why. | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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As you go through life you gather a list of amusing stories. This is one of them. Around mid '70s myself, brother, sister and a couple of friends were walking around a national park. We were on a pretty rough access track, clearly only suitable for high clearance vehicles. About 20 minutes in we came across a 4WD and a sedan. The sedan had bottomed out and wedged on some rocks and couldn't be moved. 4WDer had arrived and offered to help them out. They had tied onto a tow point on the front of the car, done the run-up style attempt and ripped the tow point straight out of the car, and were now in the process of packing up and heading off tail between legs in failure. My brother and friend, around 15 years old both I think, cast an eye over the situation and looked under the car. The muffler had caught on a rock, half torn out and wedged between two rocks. Key thing was, all the passengers were still in the car and seatbelts done up. The car driver's wife was a *big* woman, the sort of person that you wonder how did they get into that car in the first place. All passengers were asked to get out of the car. The suspension clearly gave a sigh of relief when the wife got out. That raised the car up enough that brother & co could get under the car, wire the muffler up so that it cleared the rocks and the man was able to simply drive clear. He was advised to stay up out of the ruts and passengers told to walk back. Wife didn't want to or couldn't do that so she got back into the car but they did make it back to the start of the track as they were there when we walked back out a couple of hours later. 4WDer and car driver bested by a pack of kids. Life's like that.
Some smart kids out there,and helpful.Brains beats brutes.Good story and good on you!
well, it's not that hard to outhink the average 4wdriving boofhead..
That was Russell coight doing the snatch.
@@garynew9637 Good one mate. 😊👍👍
Blokes: "We've tried brute force & optimism and now we're all out of ideas"
Kids: "What if we try to actually fix the problem?"
Biggest issue with 4W driving is finding a nice spot to stay with the family that is free of pissed rock apes.
The British Army banned the use of kinetic recovery ropes on soft skinned vehicles years ago. The KER ropes were originally developed to recover heavy military vehicles where a straight pull would be insufficient. Then the public got hold of them. There was a picture of a Range Rover on Salisbury Plain with a smashed windscreen where a shackle had completely come through the vehicle from the stuck one. It was recommended never to use metal shackles with a snatch strap and always a bridle on the stuck vehicle. If you had to use shackles then use a dead arrestor rope fastened to the strap as well. We didn't have soft shackles then, just used a bit of sacrificial rope. The bit about straps losing strength when wet was something that had never occurred to me.
John, suggest having a chat to the team at Getabout Training Services about their Hierarchy of Recovery concept. A risk based approached to vehicle recovery and ranks kinetic recovery as the highest risk. Highly recommend people undertake accredited training, through either a commercial organisation or a 4WD club. A small investment compared to the risk to vehicle and people.
Spot on, and totally accurate. A snatch strap in the wrong hands is like a loaded gun. A few years ago, and after having purchased a new luxury SUV, we were 'gifted' a free module of a multi chapter training course with our new baby. Always willing to learn something new, we went to the mountainous terrain module which turned out to be very muddy that weekend. A young instructor gave us theoretical lecture and we then hit to the road. 10 minutes later we had a Defender lying at 45 degrees in a bog with water above window level on the low side. It was solid with four wheels spinning like mixers in the water. 'Ideal opportunity to demonstrate recovery' said the instructor and he gave us another theory lecture about how to calculate exactly how much slack one should include in the kinetic snatch. Anyway, he attached the shackle to some part of the Defenders front end under the water and the other end to the formal rear tow recovery point under a Discovery 4 out front. AS an engineer, I did the energy calculation in my head and grabbed my wife and took her 30 meters off and at right angles to the Defender! The Disco took off in a cloud of black smoke and there was a loud 'BANG', followed be a second one a second later. You guessed it. John's 'Projectile From Hell' together with a sort of nudge bar previously attached to the front of the Defender had flown forward at blistering speed (no-one reported even seeing it!) to smash into the top rail of the rear door of the Disco, breaking right through the metal, breaking both back window and glass sunroof. Thankfully, no-one was hurt. We got out a spade, dropped the water level a bit, moved a bit of ground from under the front diff and eased it out gently with a pull from an old Series II. We went home and did not sign up for any more courses.
Wasn't a Mountain Top Experience course was it?? Sounds like something they'd do.
@@simoncook8772 no. Land Rover Experience. Guy was clueless and dangerous.
Such an important video - brilliant …
On the old man’s cattle station, we always gently towed vehicles and equipment out of situations due to the inherent risks involved.
It’s interesting because it’s something that has stayed with me for life from an 8 year old, so much so that we left someone stuck once because they became very aggressive that we should use their “Snatch-Strap” …
Chains ,cable just as dangerous. Should always put bag, blanket over top.
@@neilreid5not a fan of "winch sails" as they have to be repositioned to be effective, a winch wire should never get to the failure point as that is what a snatch block is for, the problem comes in the winch challenge events where everything is being done at speed, hence the big selling point of winch drum speed, rigging, operating, and putting away a snatch block takes longer, so it's the least favoured option, resulting in people overloading their systems, often having also allowed the wire to bunch and damage itself, thus dramatically reducing it's strength, once again being in too much of a hurry to do the job properly. Done a lot of off road winching/recovery , never had a KERR rope and never felt the need for one.
The Australian Army, which has a bunch of big heavy stuff that often needs to be recovered from very difficult situations, once upon a time had dedicated recovery mechanics. They spent a lot of time in training to understand the physics of recoveries and once they completed their training all they did was recoveries. It was a highly specialised discipline. The 4WD industry now promotes the idea that any idiot can safely recover a vehicle as long as they have the right equipment - a pretty dangerous idea.
Yeah, next they'll let people drive those truck things on the road, with no barriers between them or anything! Madness! You know, in some countries they still eat meat?
@@bigglyguy8429 Yeah, and you know, those big truck things require additional licence qualifications in this country before you can drive them out on the road with no barriers. Thank-you for further illustrating my point for me - it always warms the cockles of my heart when someone does that.
@@contributor7219 The Army has high standards though; reminds of my time as a motorcycle cop with the Military Police; Vic Pol traffic cops did their car driver training at the Pucka driver training ground and a few of their instructors tried out the Army motorcycle training circuit; none of them were able to successfully complete the circuit after several tries, with the senior instructor admitting that few of their motorcycle cops would qualify if they had to do the Army course..
@@contributor7219 By big trucks I meant the 4x4 itself, but thanks for making MY point - whoosh, over your head like a flying shackle!
@@petesmitt The Rigging code, in Australia comes straight from the Army engineer manual.
I was surprised that there was no mention of the recommended “Dead Weight” bag placed over the centre of the stretched strap to reduce speed of flying objects in the event of strap failure. I was waiting for him to get to that. I would have liked an engineers point of view in the effectiveness of such concepts.
Me too. I would think you need one blanket thing at 1/4 and 3/4 of the way of the rope for a projectile to be slowed down until it reaches either side - if the rope ehm projectile from hell doesn't just rocket straight through anyways.
I believe you missed an opportunity to discuss recovery blankets, are they an effective safety measure?
Also, on using chains - I have seen some shocking content online of chains failing violently during recoveries, causing serious injury. I don't think it's safe to assume that chains are a foolproof alternative.
I've used a kinetic recovery rope a couple of times with great success. Both times we tied the recovery rope to the vehicles with multiple turns of paracord. We also threaded the rope through the spare wheel to catch the rope if it got loose. Nothing went wrong either time but we probably would have survived if it did.
John: tractive effort = low effort... That's the point. If you're stuck it's probably because tractive effort wasn't enough. Tractive effort is limited by traction, and traction in places you get stuck is often low.
Fuck me, I've winched (using a tow truck) so many vehicles by the tow ball.
Vehicles stuck down in ditches etc, never seen an issue, I'm not shock loading it.
I've had a highway patrol cop (clearly a brainwashed 4wdist) abuse the shit out of me for it. Was on a flat bitumen road at an accident. I told him he didn't know what he was on about. Didn't go down well.
I would have been 17 when I did my driving and recovery course in the army. They didn't teach me how to drive. They showed me how little I knew, and started from there. The lessons I learnt in those 3 or 4 weeks have kept me and mine safe on and off the hard top for the last 50 years.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Regards Tony
Same here. As an AFV crewman I used to be in awe of how the recovery mechs got my bogged tank out (with a series of pulleys and snatch blocks). Then I see idiots whose sole qualification for off roading is a fat wallet, straddling live cables and I just winch. Whilst tempted to see who wins the Darwin award, I intervene only to get quizzical looks when I ask them if they have any idea where that cable, strap or whatever is going to go when it fails.
Me too. Did the full RACT drivers T109 course back in the 1981, then spent 20 years driving in remote Australia. Back when the GRR was actually a challenge. The good ole daze 😊
Wide Bay Training Area 1977.
A pissing wet afternoon in a hole hilariously watching an entire Tpt Sqn of Land rovers and Acco's sequentially bogging and attempting to recover themselves until they were all immobile in a 500M sea of churned mud, exhaustion and defeat.
Then the SHAME of having Tankies in tracks quickly pulling them out.
The simple life of a Grunt.
@@MicMc539 I'm sure my fellow black hats didn't charge you too many beers. :)
soft shackles are are better option as less mass going through the air if something goes wrong. Also, a gentle tug usually will do the job if you've cleared around the wheels.
Respectfully, I think you’ve missed the point. It’s not the shackle that’s likely to break, it’s the bit that the shackle is attached to that snaps off the rest of the vehicle.
If, using John’s example, the bow-shackle weighs 1kg, and the attached bit of vehicle weighs another 1kg, it becomes a 2kg, 180km/hr projectile. However, if you use a soft shackle of let’s say negligible mass, attached to a 1kg piece of vehicle, then you now have a 1kg projectile travelling at 255km/hr.
Both projectiles have the same energy - one is faster, the other heavier.
@@davidberry2542 good point, I agree. I watch an excellent American TH-cam show where they have a professional towing and recovery business, including recovering bogged vehicles (Matt’s Off Road Towing) and they used a snatch strap (rope). However they attach a bridle system to the bogged vehicle, where the bridle is attached to two points on the vehicle, and the snatch strap is attached so that it can move freely on the bridle. Given that setup, I would guess that the chances of the bridle tearing off the bogged vehicle would be significantly reduced, compared to having only one point of attachment?
@@davidberry2542 I use a fuse shackle which is designed to be the weakest link. It’s a soft shackle so no chunky bits of steel flying around if it fails. I still think the point on the danger of snatch straps is well made though.
@@horseman9582 I think you are right provided the angle of the triangular bridle is not too narrow, overstressing the strap. The chances are then that if the bridle is stronger than the attachment points and if the mounting on one side of the bridle lets go, the remaining mounting will likely arrest whatever snaps off. I think now if using a single connection that a strong safety line would be a wise move to restrain whatever might snap off. This all raises doubts also on the benefits of a mat at the midpoint of the recovery line to act as a parachute.
Thank you! I have always been an advocate of the gentle approach to 4WD recovery, even when using a snatch strap. It was good to note the tow ball reference as I have been using the tow ball and a rope or static strap for years. I have also used a snatch but only with minimal speed to the towing vehicle. I was unamused by another significant TH-camr who tested the tow ball failure issue… They had to chain the towed vehicle to a tree then back up the full length of the snatch strap with a powerful vehicle and when that didn’t snap the tow ball after a good number of tries, they cut half way through it to get it to fail!! Then they went on to say how dangerous it was to use a tow ball. Really! I'd much rather use the soft end of a snatch strap on a tow ball than a heavy shackle on a dodgy recovery point any day.
Rohny Dahl?
You have used a snatch strap with a tow ball? Even at minimum speed this is potential deadly. I would rethink that practice.
@@cjjoe2385 well, that was awkward…. You’ve (presumably) just watched an engineer who knows more about physics than you have brain cells explain to us, in 30 minutes that tow balls are the least likely thing break in a snatch recovery and YOU WANT US TO RETHINK THE PRACTICE! Which actual planet were you on during this video?
@@Renegade040 when John says they’re less likely to break than the strap then I’ll follow his advice not that of a youtube expert. He did predict that thousands of dickheads would comment on this. All I can say is bingo, he was right.
@Tee Anahera before you engage your mouth and try to prove people wrong, try engaging a couple of your limited brain cells.
I stated snatching off a tow ball even at low speed is potentially deadly. Please advise where this is incorrect. John also stated this in his video as do nearly every industry expert. As John said, which I already knew as I have done formal advance recovery training. This will put load on the receiver in ways it was never designed to experience. The ball may not snap however the receiver may do. Hence, my comments to never even do a light snatch recovery off a tow ball is accurate and very good advise.
Interesting titbit along with that 7.7kj figure. 308 Winchester, eg. a powerful and very common hunting cartridge, with a typical 165gr hunting projectile is delivering about 2kj at 500m.
That's a pretty sobering thought in comparison.
Sage advice as always. I have always thought that dragging or winching a vehicle should be your last resort after getting the shovel and traction boards out.
I though a snatch strap was a G string.
😂
Even those can be dangerous!
No, that's a 'fan' belt. 😂😂😂
@@ozymandias7940 do t you mean fanny belt 🧐
@@tba3900I think he’s talking about an OnlyFans fan
A bow shackle has come for me in a kinetic recovery before. Very wary of them since. Recovery point (tie-down point?) ripped out of the stuck vehicle, 4.7T shackle penetrated the toolbox on the back of my vehicle, completely crushed a small steel toolbox inside the alloy one and almost pushed it through the other side of the big one. The 50m/s sounds about right!
Holy hell dude!! 😱
Very sound advice Johnno !
Last time I got stuck and couldn’t be pulled out using traction, I used the force multiplier of the tangential pull.
This is where you tie your stuck vehicle to an immovable object, in my case a tree, and pull on the chain from about half way along at an angle of around 45 degrees.
Think of an archer pulling on a bow.
Works a treat, without the threat of a ‘slingshot-from-hell’.
Cheers.
I think this is a great idea and a visual or video would help explain this. @l2sfbc
Hard to do on the beach
4WD course I did years ago here in West Aussie suggested on a Beach, can bury the spare wheel at a 45 degree angle in the sand, and use that as an anchor point.....
@@bluddyrowdy8757 I have 8 max trax so that I never have to somehow get the spare from under the truck when it is centimetres off the sand (we are bogged remember) then dig a massive hole. I have watched this tested on a few youtube vids and it wasn’t always successful anyway.
@@teeanahera8949
yeah fair enough. Most have 2 spare wheels bolted to back of Cab or canopy - but You do You Mate....
Snatch straps are fine - just not idiot proof. If in any doubt of the recovery point on either vehicle, just say NO. And offer a shovel or max trax.
Amen.
Well done John - this video will save lives!
Personally I learnt so much from this vid
I have commissioned a few variable speed drives on the motor driving the flywheel of the eccentric presses that are used to forge tow balls.
Standing next to the steel bin of glowing ductile iron ingots, fresh from the furnace is a memorable event.
The place is dark, everything is covered in black soot and scale, it's like something out a creepy movie.
Anyhow, as you say, long before it breaks you are going to notice that you bent it.
And to bend it you have to be doing something very wrong.
And, never try to repair a forged item by welding on it.
That's step 1 of arranging your own death.
Couple of points JC. Firstly the Australian snatch strap was conceived about the time of Jackaroo and Rodeo 4x4 4 cylinder adventure vehicles that weighed 60% of todays ranger or prado. So big upgrade required to round rope style of twice the capacity and length. That way, reducing the bottoming out for want of a better term.
Second point, use a bridle to lower stress, use dedicated straight pull receiver if not a bridle.
Weight is you biggest enemy! Reduce the stress as much as possible - get rid of the on looker idiots too close for safety!!
Good content JC👍
I haven’t watched this video yet and I know I’m going to like it! We always recovered with tow ropes, I was shocked when snatch straps became the norm. Thanks John.
(Also thanks for reply to my dad, engineer called John, in regard to my cousin’s 2012 Hyundai Tyson’s power steering issue, we’ll keep you posted on that).
@@Renegade040.
Most users that l’ve witnessed using the proverbial “snatch strap” over many years, (since 1978) have never used them with much thought to using them “correctly”. Just by the grace of God, nobody was killed, although some were severely injured/maimed, when numerous recoveries went to…Shitsville!!
“Rated” recovery points is the dumbest term ever. Everything has a rating. Your tow hook has a rating. But it’s not high enough a rating to snatch using it.
The term “Rated” without a rating supplied is pointless. The rating might be 500kg or might be 5000kg. Either way it has a rating and is therefore rated.
The rating must be published and printed on the recovery point for it to be any use to anyone.
Well said . 👍👍
Completely agree with most of what you said. Only thing is a tractive recovery is almost never going to work on a beach. If the recovery vehicle has to start from a stop with the slack taken up in a non elastic strap it will simply bog down immediately. On the type of soft sand someone is likely to be stuck in it can be hard enough to take off from a complete stop with nothing holding you back at all. If fact that is likely how the stuck vehicle got stuck in the first place.
The difference between soft sand and hard sand on a beach can be 2m away. Your argument is moot anyway, if the sand is too soft for a tow strap then it is too soft for a snatch recovery. You also didn’t listen to the whole 30min video, John clearly stated that you should first attempt to jack the car up and use maxx trax or whatever before towing/snatching.
@@teeanahera8949 your absolutely correct. Indeed I have never even owned a 4x4
Same as mud, normally happens if someone stops. Once you are moving again no problem. Nowhere to winch and not a solution to move any distance and get momentum up. Jacking and maxtrax a good first option but starting from stopped is liable to bog tow vehicle as well.
Seen 3 4x4 and light 4x4 truck all bogged as stopped and couldn't move again in mud. A lighter vehicle with a snatch pulled all out with l4 idle+ run up. Weight is enemy of 4x4 and only ran a hand winch as pointless to get further in and no good anchor points.
They snatch have their place IF used correctly.
I do agree with chassis anchor points, pulled a towbar off just towing a heavy trailer and broke recovery points after using chain trying to tow though mud and the sudden jerk after slackening off. (Only a little too, wet, sliding, limited visibility, ever see a tow under ideal conditions, we did leave vehicles behind too).
Chains can and will break as well especially if untrained or any jerk.
We weren't just playing either it was house access road, mud to top of bullbar blocking radiator, lumps of mud falling out locking up a front wheel, 200mm lumps of mud on the roof, a six inch lift and big tyres , fixed most problems.
Abs and traction control is a. catch too, especially on gravel or mud, after ex wife cleaned up fences or sideways a few times I suggested slowing down and particularly not using foot brakes at all, it scared the crap out of me first time I used brakes on slippery road and sent off in a random direction. Turn it off best option but too late when unknown slippery conditions.
I absolutely agree about the schetchy snach straps. There is plenty of power, but very little control. Other methods are slower, but you have more opportunities to stop and readjust if the conditions change.
“You can check my maths if you went to high school and paid attention”. 😂. That one cracked me up.
Nice gay t-shirt John!!!!!!!!!!!
From the Russian locker room?
Moskva special...prewashed...
Haha, this guy!
7pm viewing! Cheers John. Viewing from Dingo Shit Rest Area...
Dingo Piss Creek seems to be getting as busy as the Bullshit Waterholes. Gunna have to find somewhere else to play with my snatch strap (
interesting how you pronounce the touareg. i have always pronunced it "toe rag" which seems more fitting lol.
As a lad 70 years ago, in a timber area, we were warned about steel cables/ropes snapping, with shackles whipping around, scything everything in its path.
We carefully calculated the possible radius of the cable, doubled it and more, and kept our distance.
We were taught how to behave around chaffcutters, circular saws, rifles and snakes, as well as arsenic sheep dips. Staying well clear was the basic advice, as well as being alert and recognising the potential danger.
At school we were taught the basics of safety, walking as a pedestrian, etc. Safely riding in the back of a ute was another lesson, usually ignored.
Enjoyed the Chullora war stories, more please.
Thanks for another interesting video.
70 years ago common sense was common … not so much nowadays
Agree
Now days it's always someone else's fault when you fall over
Ambulance chasing lawyer scum
Bungee cords are a modern miracle when used correctly
Bit like fire !
Is it because people actually use them to violently "snatch" out a vehicle.
Agree but did you just hear the power at 10 km = 180 km 😱
Yes; makes for entertaining YT vids...see Inskip.....
@@kennyknackers6084 nah, I'm a mechanic in the southern USA, and in my experience not many people who are stuck enough to want the equipment, are bothered enough to learn how to properly implement it. I also wouldn't consider them to be remotely cautious.
@@Nipplator99999999999 Those who are cautious may save a life.
@@rais1953 yep, but this area is a whole new level of special needs stupid. They will run two snatch straps from the biggest mobile truck to the stuck truck. Then take as much of a full throttle run as slack allows to usually just get most of the truck unstuck. Whilst the transfer case of the big boy is everywhere except where it should be.
In the army, here in Finland, we have sort of snatch straps to recover heavy equipment from swamp. It is like a thick tow cable but made of rubber and stuff. Once a huge field gun was sunk almost to the barrell, and with that rubber cable it slowly came out, as there is no way to "hurry swamp", it must be extracted slowly. Yes, the tow points in the military are big enough. I have a T-55 tank at my summer place(just for fun, everyone should have one...), and the tow points are huge. My Hummer H3 has cast, big burly tow hoops, they look really strong, but the area they are connected to is just Isuzu-looking truck frame end with smallish bolts. So you never know untill you take a closer look. Getting that through your rear window would be final. Luckily the pull trough those bolts is straight, so even a small-looking bolt can handle it if the frame end is strong enough. Here in Europe we have the working load as rating for lifting straps, and they have that 1/7 safety ratio (when new), just as lifting chains, but the danger with those is the ratio, as I have overheard many times "it is a 2 ton strap so it can easily take this 10 tons...". Same with chains. I have seen a chain with (originally of same lenght...) two chains from the big O having the other chain 5 cm longer than the other... I usually use the snatch strap when cutting difficult trees when it is windy by pulling the tree to the desired direction with a portable winch, so when the tree is cut to fall, the strap keeps pulling long enoug to ensure that the tree has no bad ideas. I think that the worst idea is to combine a truck winch with a snatch strap. But, always use the line damper , the one used with winch cable, also with the snatch strap. Those killed people would be still alive if they did.
Using a snatch strap appropriately is one of the greatest tools at your disposal. Soft shackles prevent the missiles coming back at you. Trick is slowly take up the strain, not have 3/4 length of strap run up.
Agree. My thoughts are have 100% synthetic, and strong points on the vehicle. That way it’s almost impossible to break anything dangerous.
Having said that. My preference is 1) use something like a bogout, and simply drive out using the power of the engine. Or 2) use a winch for a simple controlled recovery (on either the bogged vehicle or the recovery vehicle)
For those saying a winch is too expensive due to having to purchase a mounting point (usually a bull bar), plus a suspension upgrade. I say: how much is your life worth?
I think you are missing some key points of the video. The metal you have connected to could break and come off, still attached to the soft shackle. You would still have a metal projectile hurling towards the lead car. John’s example of 10km/hr is not a big 3/4 length run up. Even if you took up all slack, then slowly began to drive, the spring kinetic energy is being built up in a similar way.
I was taught to put a towel half way along the strap to prevent the strap projecting the full distance, the theory being the towel causes the strap to wrap around the towel and not extend the full distance?
@@alanwetton4950 yes, 100% to dampen any recoil including on winch ropes as well. Most recovery kits come with a bag which is also perfect for this
@@Leighau no I get the point. That is also the point of rated recovery points as well as a damper on the rope, normally the carry bag for that recovery kit you bought
Surely a dampener is being used between both vehciles on the strap etc........hang on are we still assuming it's the Dingo Piss Creek crew?!
If I may add a couple of points. Shackles were made in Australia by West Footscray Engineering and DID have a breaking strain of some 8:1 the stated WLL. DON'T expect imported Chinese product to have the same strength. On a certified test bed, they start to move at 2:1. The AS std states they should have a safety margin of 5:1. Lifting slings have 8:1, rated lifting chain 4:1 and wire robe 5:1. All lifting slings will commence to break at the stitching and all wire machine pressed at the ferrule. Back hooking or chocking effectively reduces the capacity by 20%. A wire cable tested on a test bed will break at 2:1 if it bares against an edge so don't allow any towing item to rub against the chassis or bull bar. A commercial shackle has NO guranteed W.L.L and rated shackles are easily distinguished as the pin is larger that the body dia.
Love your channel,
BUT isn't 15m/sec = 54 km/h???
All the best from Norway
Thanks John.
For me the first option is lower the tyre pressure. Then it’s some sort of recovery board like maxtrax with a bit of shovel work. I’ve gone away from the steel shackles to soft shackles to combat some of that projectile problem. If you think the recovery point is dodgy, I wonder if a secondary sling could be added?
Hmmmm. If the recovery point looks dodgy, then I think it’s back to the shovel!
Hey John the expert ,the day I started listening to you
Is the day I realised that you only want some significance in a industry where your TH-cam counterparts actually drive there cars, not sit on there arse .Prove me wrong.
Proven wrong .
Hail to us Riggers. Why does a Rigger, say heads up? So we hit you in the face! Cheers love your work, and your respect to applied physics . 👍 🤣
People can do anything "by mistake".
Most often by mistaking they have a clue.
John, i have series 3 landy, 202 trimatic conversion.. disability pensioner... my hobby is going to Stockton Beach during school holidays, and towing out wankers in cars that say AWD, subsequently get bogged...
If I use my winch, or even a snatch strap, i always put the weight belt, whiplash inhiberter on it.. the heavy thing that hangs over the cable.. oh one week at the beach, keeps me in slabs of beer for months...👻
Cant help but notice all the tools presumably in your workshop look like they have done no work at all!!!!!!
Love this vid mate…..also don’t forget to mention the old time favourite….the block and tackle. One of the most under rated pieces of equipment on my farm. I can pull anything out of anywhere with one.
Slow and steady. The opposite to this.
My tool of choice is the Tirfor, pull from any direction, and unlike a conventional winch leave it behind when you do not need it.
Dude, I enjoy the details but sometimes I just want to say, just get on with it!
Agree, only about 18 minutes in to the 30 minute video did he specifically mention what dangerous event could occur.
Being a T109, I know a SHOVEL is the first aide to recovery. These slingey things and so called recovery kits are sold to soft cocks in their soft roaders so the driver thinks he doesn’t need to get dirty. As my old transport supervisor used to say….’You got it bogged, you get it out.’*( excessive profanity deleted)
And I’m talking about Acco F1 6x6 and Unimog trucks…it still beggers belief that my mates find recreation in cross country driving. Nothing but hard yakka in the Green Machine. Been there. Not fun.
The F1 had the best winch though.
@@njwithers 157 grease nipples, and half of them in the fairleads.
John, snatch straps are not rated for load limits, they're rated for load. Reason is, you don't want a snatch strap rated too high or it doesn't stretch enough when you are yanking it, and acts too much like a fixed strap than a snatch strap. Most people shouldn't get the heaviest rated snatch strap unless they have a really heavy rig.
I think that’s his point man.
@@Thatguy-cb4qs he didn't say it
@@xpusostomos something something something olight.
I spent the first few years of my engineering career using earthworks machinery to get other machines unbogged. Would always use a chain and do it slow. 20y later I now carry a tow strap never used a snatch.
I learnt from the expert how to use a snatch strap - Russell Coight - Great Aussi Adventures. What could go wrong dude!
I'm guessing you also don't like bungee cords with steel hooks.
Tight snatch, hitching point, stretchy snatch, soft shackles, hard shackles, recovery, death. This four wheel driving caper sounds just like marriage.
Good video. It's terrifying how complacent people are especially with snatch straps, just milling around within striking distance.
When I was a kid, we called it a shangeye. Very fast, very accurate.
Hey John I'm just sitting here waiting for all the hate in the comments.😀
John just call them tow straps, the bogans are going to struggle with inextensible straps. Snatch straps and tow straps are more easily remembered for the smooth brained.
Yes, even the stickers sold in Repco, say “ I like Snatch ( straps)”
So the bogans who breed really like this
I've said it before and I'll say it again, winch first, snatch as a last resort.
Solid plan. Approved.
Road build, recovery tracks, "self recover" for want of a better word first, then winch, then snatch. Too many don't even bother putting a bit of work in with the shovel and recovery tracks to make it a bit easier or hopefully even be able to drive themselves out instead of going straight to the snatch strap.
@@AutoExpertJC oh you winch John, after telling people not to buy a bull bar with winch? How does that work?
@@xpusostomos could have a hand winch...
@@johnjosephson9277 let's be real... Nobody has a hand winch.. almost nobody
@ 14:57 I've got nothing against accountants. 🤔
Every vid ever posted by John. "the bean counters at "*" caused this..." 🤣🤣
Love your work! 😉
That was not an insult 😎
My tree protector (used for protecting the trunk of trees when winching) has never been used for that in the 20 years I have owned it..and carried it in my 4wd.
It has done sterling work pulling out trees and bushes in gardens.
Friends/relatives ask me to carry out some "Nissan gardening"...
Beats digging and screwing up a good chain and bar on any chainsaw...
Two things that bring out the experts,keys locked in a car and a bogged 4wd
Sorry johno, you forgot to mention " elfresco bongs"
There are factory tow points on stock modern 4WDs. The term "tie down point" is a hangover/myth from a long time ago. No vehicles imported on ships or transported on flatbeds if broken down, are secured by these points as it can cause wheel bearing damage. The 4WD industry has preyed on the tie down point myth to sell coloured steel brackets for years. Excellent video.
How else do you secure it? And if they arnt used for that what else are they made for?
My LC 76 came fitted with shipping brackets and tow points. The shipping points are welded to the chassis, the tow points are bolted with all bolts in shear.
@@Tom-lf8hx Have a look at the next flatbed truck you see with a car on it. They are secured by straps over the tyres. This ensures that the wheel bearings don't get damaged which is what happens when the vehicle body is tied down instead
@@robwilson7654 That is odd. Maybe because the 76 is sold in many markets? I know that your rig will have been secured on the ship with wheel straps as this has been universal practice for a good while now
@@stolzhammer3239 yeah thats why i asked this guy what they were for? If they arnt tie down, recovery points, gotta be for something
Back in the 1980's I had a flat on a trailer with about a ton and a half of carrots in it, I pulled over onto the verge to change the wheel as the road was a bit narrow. When I came to drive off the trailer had sunk into the soft ground and despite being in low four wheel drive in a landrover it would not budge, the only thing I had with me was some 20mm dia polypropylene rope so I drove onto the hard with out the trailer and tied two strands of the rope to the trailer with the other end around the tow ball and slowly increased tension on the rope which just kept stretching. Then there was a bang and in the rear view mirror I saw something flying across the field, when I got out to look I found that the tow ball and half the hitch was missing, the two 16 mm pins that held the adjustable height tow hitch in place had sheard and the rope had acted like a ballista and launched the tow ball and the rear sliding half of the hitch into space< never found the hitch piece and had to drive back to the yard and collect a tractor to get the trailor off the verge. I have never used an adjustable height hitch since if needed I use a dropper plate.
I was an overhead crane operator in a steel furniture factory in Brisbane when I was 15. No ticket. The foreman showed me how to lift 6-metre packs of 10-50mm square tube off the back of semi-trailers and swing them into the shed. My other job was to cut all that steel to size on a big-arse wet saw. Great fun for a kid.
No mention of the sandbag things or a big blanket over the strap? They can muffle all the velocity
When this breaks on the stuck motorist you have stopped to help, not only will it hit your car but if it doesn’t kill you I’m sure the motorist you are helping will then sue you for the damage to his car.
Absolutely agree, been saying snatch recovery is the most dangerous style of recovery for awhile. But here in the states we have so many strap hero’s out here doing full send snatch recovery’s
Didn’t you hear the part when John urged us to stop using the apostrophe because words end in S? It was you he was talking about. *heroes, *recoveries see, easy.
@@teeanahera8949 your issue is with apple and their auto correct not me
@@matt.mckinzie if you spot an error provided by auto-correct the best course of action is to correct it before pressing send rather than blaming Apple.
It’s like relying on spell-checker rather than learning to spell in the first place.
@@jerrymyahzcat I just have more important things to do. Then to make sure every single word is spelled correctly for the internet cry babies is all.
Hi John. Love these videos. This one has been a huge eye opener (as someone who has just financially committed to the purchase of a vehicle often pre-disposed for activities that end up participating in activities like this).
One thing I’ve been thinking a bit about over the last few months though, is when is something “special”, no longer “special”?
Like… all your videos are “Special Reports”. All of them. I don’t remember the last time you did one that wasn’t launched with the “Special Report” sting!
Maybe you need a sting for “don your safety helmet because it’s time to use those noggins for some beer garden physics” or something catchier?
Keep up the great work!
@@Renegade040 just because I’m curious (never done a recovery before), but how would you plan, orientate, prepare, protect, guard, or otherwise, a situation such that said 2kg projectile couldn’t harm someone?
There is a reason you put a weight bag over the strap.
Reinforcing the need for proper training in 4WD by an accredited trainer.
I get the risk, and that’s why we do our best to spread the snatch load over multiple recovery points/bolts on each vehicle and dig out best you can to reduce the load. This isn’t new info to many… but we all have successful experience with snatch straps - particularly in sand. The recent-ish change is that we can now get out of bogged in sand on our own in so many instances using maxxtracks or similar without requiring a recovery vehicle. Before that, “give us a snatch” was the go to for sand because it works. And we were all warned about “be careful because there was this one time” stories of recoveries going wrong. It was the recovery tracks that changed my approach because they can be easier and safer and are a solo option on the beach.
I've recovered thousands of vehicles over the years with snatch straps and have seen people who dont know what they're doing use them improperly. A framed out 8k lb truck only takes about 10mph to recover. Ive seen some people hit 4k lb cars at 15 to 20mph on questionable points and break them. Ive been through dozens of straps over the years but nobody is probably recovering people as much as I do.
M A T E sometimes just enough stored energy from the snatch is all that is required, got stuck at the back of a property probably 20 meters from the road in a little isuzu 4 ton hiab truck lifting a concrete 1050 manhole lid off to do repairs, anyways my workmate rang a fella with a safari and he used chains to try and pull me out, didn't go well, I thought the back of the safari tow bar was going to kill me but it stopped about 3 meters short of my truck, long story short, I got my manager to buy a snatch strap and some strops, parked on good road he only had to move maybe 2 meters, different horses for different courses.
I've had a 4WD of some description for decades and enjoy the odd trip off the bitumen. However, I am not into extreme off roading as we see on some of the shows on TV or YT.
I totally get it that some people, admittedly mostly guys, like to test their masculinity and decked out, fully equipped 4WD's in the most harsh and unforgiving environments, but I'm not that guy. Yes, I'm a bit of a wuss when I'm off-road. I come across challenging terrain and stop and think a while. I think about my shiny 4x4 and the amount of hours I have to work to pay it off. I also think about what it would mean to me to overcome this bog hole, or sofa sized boulders. Nothing. Zip. Nada. I just see dollar signs and broken CV joints and dented underbody, bent panels. So I take the chicken track (if there is one) or back track 10km to find an alternative route. Never had to recover or be recovered, I know my limits and don't go beyond them. Call me what you like, but I'm certain my 4x4 appreciates my kindness too and it looks after me. We've been way off track many times and it always brings me home again. I just avoid getting into situations that might require a recovery, simple.
If you like taking 5 days to travel 2km through knee deep mud, or completely submerging your pride and joy in a creek, knock yourselves out. I'll be at home with my feet up and a brew by sundown!
If my 3sec math is even close, a 44Magnum 240gr projectile @ 1240fps has approx 850ft-lbs of muzzle energy, or 1.1Kj. Which for reference I believe, (not being a medical professional, my theory is subject to confirmation) would appear to be a poor decision to stand between it and its destination.🙂
Snatch strap OR Kinetic Rope--- some might like to sh!t on Straps while lauding Ropes..... (A kinetic rope, functionally - is a strap woven in circular fashion...)
BUT - "inextensible" things must never exceed "wheel / tractive effort available" - Yes John, you know this sh!t...
(I still often take a tow chin for dragging logs, etc, OR pulling some lightly stuck truck...
John: soft shackle plus good recovery point = no problem
Late to the party!
Yep! Seen it happen.
Mr Dufus attached his recovery points with galvanised, mild steel bolts from Bunnings. His mate in a Mitsubishi L300 4wd was pulling him out, the recovery point let go and the whole lot hit the rear door of the L300 about 3 inches below the window. It punctured the outer skin, the inner skin and put a massive dent in the fridge in the back.
This was about 30 years ago and was a hell of a wake-up call.
Been very careful with snatch straps since.
One of your most interesting and informative topics yet. Thanks for creating this John.
Congratulations John. I did a 4WD safety course with Nissan instructors when I worked for Nissan seven years ago. Your views are consistent with those of the very experienced instructors from Nissan. I hope you revisit this topic from time to time to help people new to 4WD recovery.
Tractive recovery is very difficult on the beach in soft sand which is why snatch straps are so popular. Nobody wants to get down on their hands and knees in the hot sand and dig for half an hour first. On the positive side on the beach it is only sand holding you in place which offers little resistance, when you are stuck in sucking mud or your axle is hooked over a rock its a different game.
I don't own a snatch strap and never will, but if you do want to use it a good start is always to get rid of the ten kids running around and the mother holding her baby watching first.
Many, many years ago I did one of the first recoveries I ever did. The vehicle I was recovering was using their own strap. I didn't know enough to really inspect the strap. I engaged low range and slowly let the clutch out and their was an almighty "slap" on the back of my vehicle and it jumped forward. The strap had snapped, luckily hitting my bumper and not any of the ten people milling around watching. Lesson learned.
Rocovery dangers can be minimised and the number one safety tip is to STOP using limps of meral to attach straps. Soft shackles are the way to go.
Have to agree with you that the 4WD accessory companies have a lot to answer for. The only benefit of a lot of the stuff they sell is to them, in the form of profits.
Nonsense
@@xpusostomos ARB shareholder then?
@@gazzafloss Someone who believes an unmodified Prado can make it safely anywhere through through the High Country are we?
@@nobody6056 well I guess some can drive and others need assistance then?
@@gazzafloss Srsly? 40+ years driving seriously hard core terrain including as a surveyor into the most remote parts of the continent when I was in the army. This is one area where I know my shit. Take a modern 4WD straight out the showroom to say, Cape Voltaire (NW WA) and see how you (don’t) go…indeed, just tag along in High Country awhile and you’ll soon see the limitations of a modern, stock 4WD.
The other problem with snatch recoveries is, you never know how the person pulling you out is going to behave, often only a very small amount of acceleration is needed to get a successful recovery but most idiots are obsessed with flooring it indescribably every time. Snatch straps are just not worth the risk.
Don't forget you can use Marauder 2 to reverse charge your phone as well.
Hi John, informative but could you redo the math on the projectile to say how fast it would be travelling if you hang something (like your chain for instance) with 3 or 4kg of weight over the middle of the snatch strap?
Many years ago probably in the 70s when I had a landcruser I went to out of Adelaide a 4wd club meeting.
They had set up a demo of the dangers of snachstraps.
They had a heavy post in the ground as an anchor.
A couple of sheets of corregated roofing in front.
A 4wd had the other end attached via a much thinner cord.
When the 4wd took off and got to the point the cord broke the shackle rocketed back and straight through the roofing iron
A VERY GRAFFIC. DEMO OF THE INHERENT DANGERS.
Thank you John. I have never used a kinetic strap to recover a vehicle. My wagon was once pulled out of a minor washed out crossing with a strap which was kinetic but I reckon that a standard strap would have done just as well. I have never seen a kinetic strap used at a construction site, landfill or quarry. Chains, inelastic straps, and ropes (and occasionally a push from an excavator bucket) are used to get vehicles out of slippery spots. Why take a silly chance?
This is why you never find a "snatch" strap on a farm. Chains only please.
Snatch straps are not meant for heavy vehicle recoveries, and I’m guessing your farm equipment isn’t getting bogged in low tractive situations like a sandy beach or snow?
Saw a clip recently where the gear failed, and smashed through the windscreen of the towed vehicle, killing the driver.
I saw similar things in my teens, and a rope snapped while hauling a very stuck "trailer-sailer", and a gentleman got whipped just above the knees. Ambulance case.
Yeah, if the gear doesn't break, then the mounting position will snap off the vehicle.
Generally not a good thing.
DO NOT TRY TO SHOCK the vehicle out of it's position.
You're gonna get caught, and if you're in the States, you'll get sued.
Ghastly as fuck.
Whilst driving a dumpy I pulled a stump out with a snatch strap, good job the bucket was up. The stump ricocheted off it and chipped my right ear
Soft shackles,Often used in snatch rope attachment these days .
Have a watch of Matt's off-road recovery TH-cam, 4x4 /27 channel etc etc ,you will find experienced people doing recovery of the said stuck Ute/trucks /Jeep's .
Chain is also used to find a suitable attachment point .
Maybe it's not the snatch strap that is the issue,it's how it's used !
But I get what you are saying ,the average Joe Blogg is sold an amazing accessory,that if used wrong ,turns the easy as to use,into a potential disaster.
Seeing a continuous rip thru an unassailable engineering safety analysis for several minutes straight in a single take was one of the pinnacles of youtube. I think there was one cut in the first third. Golf clap. All neurons firing there. Brain possibly burned thru 12W x 60s/m x 30m = 21kJ...conservatively. If only 10% of that could be stored up and focused on a moment of telepathy, we could stop that bow shackle.
If you really want a controversial subject, start talking using a HiLift Jack for recovery 😂
Umm did we hear something must be done about coal, seriously? Oh comon John you're too smart to have been roped into that scam surely? So while China builds roughly 80+ coal power stations a year, on a planet where 97% of all carbon is produced by nature, leaving the total human footprint at 3%, and Australia's output at around 0.004%, surely cutting that 'massive' output doesnt make a difference. Food for thought before we implode economically and follow the others into power black outs and rationing for 0.00001 benefit to the globe, if there even is a benefit. You should, everyone should, watch planet of the humans, a complete spotlight into what is the green energy scam, because that is exactly what it is, proven in that free show available on here.
I agree completely with your assessment that the shackle is the killer!
May I point you to a channel called "Matt's Off Road Recovery"? They use kinetic recovery ropes, but they use soft shackles to overcome the unsafe issue that you've so perfectly described. I believe that your off-road-enthusiast viewers would be well-served to be aware of that option and to use that in place of a metal shackle of any kind.
The value of a kinetic rope is that it also overcomes the shock imposed on the system when the recovering vehicle brings the rope taught. Most folks don't sneak up on it to gently tighten it and then "give it the beans". Instead, they take a full-throttle run at it while it's still loose. This is when the connections endure their greatest shock loading, and when they are most likely to fail and kill someone. Using the soft shackles eliminates the metallic mass from becoming a projectile, and using a kinetic rope softens the shock when the recovering vehicle snaps the rope tight.
What I've learned from "MORR" is that a smaller vehicle can also impart more force into the recovery than one might imagine and still get them out with fewer attempts, and little or no damage to anyone or anything. MORR has been doing it for some time now, but most folks getting themselves or their buddies un-stuck are noobs, so there's that.
I lived in Maine, USA for a number of years and was for a while the service manager of a Land Rover dealership, so I put back together a lot of perfectly sound vehicles that had been seriously damaged by idiot owners. Up north there, most off-roading is done in very swampy and heavily wooded areas. So: big fucking winches were all the rage.
Me and the rest of the folks at the dealership went way above and beyond the call of duty and held weekly training seminars out back behind the shop, demonstrating safe use of these very dangerous gizmos. I had a photo album of Landies hauled in on flatbeds after suffering horrific damage caused by incorrect rigging/poor tehnique/moronic behavior. It seemed to get their attention.
Great video, particularly your use of simple math and physics to clearly exp!ain your points. Also: very funny!
I saw a 2012 ish Hilux driving at 100kph towing a tandem trailer full of sand, cement, rock with the mixer plus all the sundries. as it was passing me I noticed the whole tow bar assembly was upside down and Tek screwed on to the chassis like Mad Max style. I took the next exit.. your recovery point might be 100% but who know.
Unfortunately, most of the 4WD adventure channels available online show the ''snatch strap'' recovery method as there go to method if winching is not available.
What they don't tell you is that most are newer vehicles (no rust or corrosion) very well maintained (no loose bolts, etc) that have been heavily modified including upgraded recovery points on front and back of their vehicles.