doing a series one rewatch is realizing that Nine is so in love with Rose from the get and that was so much fun to experience. I think the subtlety with how they show their love for each other is expressed is honestly why I enjoyed it so much.
- “…Clara’s doctors exist on opposing ends of the young and sexy spectrum” - I will not stand for Capaldi slander! - cont. “with Smith being young and Capaldi being sexy” I’ve never been so relieved by the punchline of a joke.
Thing is with Rose, I always saw that he fell in love with Rose because she literally brought him out of the darkest time of his life. Like how a soldier would fall in love with and marry a nurse that cared for them after war. Rose isn't even my favourite companion but that's how I always saw it anyway.
thee really funny thing is - i was just discussing this with someone. I really feel that the "love story" between rose & the doctor would have been much more stronger to me had they made it more of a familial love (as in a father/daughter relationship) vs. a romantic one. Rose's big achilles heel was Pete and I feel had the show leaned into this more it would have been a bit more poignant. [and I feel the loss would have been more? - if this makes sense. and it wouldn't have hurt martha - who also mooned over the doctor). admittedly. i stop watching Doctor Who by the time i get to Season seven because i really can't even even with River and Clara, but i am doing a rewatch and i am going to try to give every season and companion a fair chance.or at least try to anyway. my feelings about the romance is like... for me i just didn't get the Rose/Doctor one. (how you said it is sweet. but it still doens't work for me)
fall in love yes but marry? some loves are just for that time and place, love born of trauma bonding rarely ever blossoms into a full "let's do life together"
@@cement_eater I keep hearing that too. but then we have a whole other problem. but i have heard Capaldi's Bill Season is really good outside of being hammered home some aspects of what set up the Seasons I refuse to watch
I think they've just got to keep finding new stories to tell, and if those involve romance, why not? We've seen unrequited love on the show before but what if the Doctor fell in love with someone who didn't love them back? That'd be quite humbling for a character who's sometimes a bit too universally adored (in-universe, I mean) and something I think Jodie Whittaker could have played well
I'd love to see it, as you said it'd very much flip the dynamic a little. You don't expect a sunset to admire you back, especially when you're not paying attention to it.
That would be interesting. I'd disagree with giving that plot to Jodi, but mainly because she's the FIRST female Doctor we see. The male Doctors get to be adored, the female Doctor has to pine, just like the male Masters get to be cruel and chaotic, the female Master had a softening heart(s). Regardless of whether they did or could do it really well, it's a pity to give those storylines to the characters only in the rare instances they're female.
i understand why it’s perceived as the death of clara and the doctor’s romance (moffat’s obsession with subtext and almost impressive ability to write lines nobody actually hears), but clara and danny is actually an affirmation of it, because it’s established in death in heaven that she was basically emotionally cheating on him with the doctor the whole time. she tells a cyberman that she loves the doctor more than anyone else and when she learns that the cyberman is danny she doesn’t correct herself. she just apologises. i’ve also seen it said that her relationship with danny was a consequence of her being a control freak, where she was trying to control her love for the doctor by replacing it with a normal, healthy romance. but s8 is filled with subtle and not subtle proof that she still very much loves the doctor. she literally says i love you to his face whilst on the phone to danny. incredible adultery. they’re so violently and insanely in love
I totally agree but also want to say that I don't think that her loving the doctor takes away from the fact that she also loves Danny. Not in the same way as the doctor, tho they both fall under romance to some degree. Love and romance can be really complicated sometimes and I think her emotional cheating with the Doctor doesn't negate any of the pain she shows for Danny's death or how she gives the words "I love you" to him
i love twelveclara dynamic 'cause it perfectly showcases why the doctor's romance with humans is bound to fail. having such a deep, obsessive love for a person who has a fragile and short life compared to the doctor, will make him break all the laws of the time to fix it, to cheat death, which ends in catastrophe. and if that person is so similar to him in every way except said human fragility, driving him to extremes even more. you want them to be together, they're on fire, but that fire is willing to take all the universe with them. damn i love s8-9.
The phrase about Smith being young and Capaldi being sexy is such a good line and it’s been living rent free in my head since I first watched this video.
we all know that 12 and nardole are the best couple of all, the reason you put them in that seperate catagory was because of how beautiful their romance arc was tbh
Ten and Donna will always be my absolute favorite Doctor-Companion duo. They had such _perfect_ chemistry playing off each other, while having absolutely _zero_ forced romantic tension to mess it all up that there usually is with female companions in the revival. I'm not really a fan of the Doctor having love interests at all really, so Ten and Donna, and later Eleven with _both_ Amy and Rory, are some of my favorite times of the show. (I also really liked series 8 Twelve, when he was much darker, more serious, and more alien; but then Moffat lightened him up too much in series 9 and 10 in some misguided attempt to make him more like Ten and Eleven)
tbh I don't think twelve becoming more lighthearted was a mistake at all. It was the natural consequence of his (great) arc in series 8, and he still wasn't nearly as goofy as ten and eleven. That said, I agree regarding romance. Saying that romance alone elevates the impact of the material does a disservice to the show's platonic relationships in general. ten and donna being in love with each other wouldn't make journey's end hit any harder. I felt the same way about twelve and bill's relationship; keeping it parental was the right way to go
My favourite romance in the show will always be River and the Doctor. It didn't feel like it had a weird power imbalance, they had a lot in common, and the fact that she wasn't a full-time companion helped. That'll always be my Doctor Who OTP
I know there's a bunch of people who dislike the romance in 'Girl in the Fireplace', especially the Doctor/Rose shippers. But I honestly think it's excellently placed within the framework of S2, because it's basically a microcosm of Doctor/Companion romances, just on fast-forward. And so it's also a cautionary tale for Rose (and the Doctor) that such a deep connection is always only going to be fleeting for the Doctor and that loss and separation are on the road ahead. I mean, yes, to many it seems strange that the Doctor would fall in love with Reinette when he's only known her less than a day (with her knowing him for many years on the other side of the coin). But for an alien who lives millions/thousands of years, only knowing someone for a year or two (Rose), is about the same as the Doctor/Reinette scenario in a way -- what is a day to the Doctor, is years and years to a human, and what is a few years to a human is barely the blink of an eye for the Doctor. So, the Doctor falling in love with a person who's only in his life for 1-3 years, for example, is just a short emotional blip in his long life. Not that it makes him love any less, mind you, but it's just the reality of it. It's all just the juicy tragedy of the Doctor's relationship with his companions (especially those with a much shorter -- ex. human --- lifespan).
My favourite relationship has to be River. The clever timetravel element works so well on rewatches. Its the closest we've had to a non human relationship due to her timelord origin and shes just as versed in universe's nuances as him - they really felt on par with one another. Alot of the human companions felt subordiante to the Doctor whereas with River I loved seeing her one up him on occassion. I just wish she was in more episodes before her depature with 12. Apart from that I love the diversity of relationships the doctor has had in the modern era. I really wanted more development to Thasmin but certainly enjoyed its subtleties. With Russell really pushing new heights with the upcoming series I would love to see the Doctor explore LGBT relations and I can totally envisioning it happening. However, as you state I wouldnt mind if Ncuti was a palette cleanser and we just get a wholesome friendship between 15 and Ruby.
7:50 one reason why I love Clara and 12 is that they feel like the most balanced Doctor/Companion pairing (no River doesn’t count as a companion, she is her own time traveler who meets up with the Doctor) for 2 main reasons. 1)She had a life outside of the Doctor. In series 7 she was a nanny and in 8&9 she was a teacher. She may have traveled with the Doctor but she didn’t really live with him. They met up, had adventures then went their seperate ways, Clara to teaching or nannying and Doctor to whatever he gets up to when he is alone. I think this was especially a big problem with RTD era when companions almost fully moved into the TARDIS and sometimes went home to Earth 2)They are both the boss and the story treats them as such. Ofcourse Doctor has more knowledge and experience but Clara is just as cunning and manuplative as him, we see this loads but most noticiably in Flatline. There is also a little but consistent thread of Clara learning to pilpt the TARDIS. In JittCotT Doctor begins to teach Clara how to fly the TARDIS(which doesn’t end well) later Clara stops the TARDIS to argue with the Doctor in Kill the Moon. Aftewards in Mummy on the Orient Express them piloting the TARDIS together. Not to mention how in Caretaker that both of the can open&close the TARDIS doors with a snap, which is a detail I adore. It builds up slow and in the background but it is there. I can't remember other companions doing anything similar with the TARDIS, sure Yaz flies it but only when Doctor isn't there or she is knocked out/dying instead of going against the Doctor like Clara did
I don't really like River, she's one of my least favorite characters of recent Who. I found her day-to-day dynamic with the Doctor pretty grating throughout Eleven's run, and most importantly I felt a lot of her characterization during that time fell flat by just *telling* us how cool she was rather than letting her actually *do* cool things on screen. But I like the way you described their relationship here, and it certainly opened my mind to at least appreciating one aspect of her story. So thank you for that.
I agree and find it validating for someone to explain how romance can enhance the show. I'm also firmly in the camp that the Doctor fell in love with Rose as Nine (and she with him). It added a great dynamic that it continued on with Ten. For Doctor 15, I want him and Ruby to have a Donna/Ten buddy dynamic, with the intensity of Clara/Twelve. The "I'm willing to do almost anything for you." It's not romance per se, but one thing I need from my Doctor/companion dynamic is the intensity. The devastation of Nine and Ten losing Rose. The freak out Eleven had at the idea of Amy's departure in The Angels Take Manhattan. Twelve avenging Clara for billions of years (refusing to let it go) in Heaven Sent. I didn't want 13 and Yaz to have a romance, but I needed 13 to have more overt intensity about her companions (esp. Yaz or Ryan). It fits my headcanon that the Doctor's first companion post regeneration provokes the most intense feelings (and inability to let go voluntarily). Tragedy and involuntary circumstances parted 9 & Rose, 10 & Rose, 11 & Amy, 12 & Clara. But then 13 voluntarily sends Yaz away? It didn't fit with what I like to see. There should have been a tragic parting to force the Doctor to let go. Not just a, "think I need to do this next bit on my own."
Yeah I don't think there's ever been a more transparent "you need to leave now because you're not in the next era" companion departure. It's like Padme dying of sadness in Star Wars.
@@Joe_Brennan_ Exactly! I feel robbed that I never got to see that side of 13, regarding her companions. And I need to see that dynamic come back with 15. I need him to be strongly attached to Ruby. To need her around, the way 11 needed Amy to keep his moral compass from straying too far. That's another dynamic 13 lacked with her companions. The idea that a companion could help the Doctor not go too far. Influence them for the better. I never felt 13's companions had that dynamic or influence over her.
I understand some people appreciated that the Fam & Dan all get lower key exits compared to most of the companions of the previous 10 series prior to Chibnall, but there is a difference between low key and dramatically limp. Ryan & Graham works okay, it's seeded a bit, and it's semi-earned, it's a fizzle rather than a bang, but it's used in contrast to Yaz, so it seemed forgivable, like the show is setting up that Yaz could never leave like this... only she broadly does? I mean, it isn't her choice exactly, but it's not a dramatic separation. Martha is an interesting comparison point, as someone who has romantic feelings for the Doctor that aren't fulfilled, the difference is the Doctor apparently reciprocates the feelings for Yaz, only Martha gets a more rounded exit. By The Power of the Doctor I thought there were two exits potentially laid out ahead for Yaz, either the romance comes to some sort of a head, an acknowledgement, that leads to a tragic separation, or Yaz decides she needs to get out, like Martha, weirdly neither happens. Where's the drama? The passion? The fight? I am up for more romance from the show in the future, but mostly what I'm excited about is the return of character dynamics.
As with so many of the shifts in tone between classic and new Who, I think the Time War can really help contextualise a lot of stuff. The Doctor was initially a far more alien alien, and the Time Lords in general had a real vibe of being “above” base emotions like love, being logical and scientific. Then the Doctor had to do one of the worse things imaginable and annihilate two whole species. After that, maybe the idea of love is more appealing. Maybe the enforced loneliness really opened their eyes and made them realise that they needed romantic love more than they knew. Or possibly it was because the actors playing the Doctor became progressively more traditionally attractive.
The first adventure of the series starts out with the Doctor and his granddaughter. Theoretically, the Doctor has had a romance and a family the viewers have never been fully shown. As for the classic Doctors, I keep in mind these are actually younger versions of the Doctor, and perhaps a Doctor who stays away from romance after losing the aforementioned family. I also believe the 8th Doctor was willing to try again. After the Time War, the gravity of the loss opened the Doctor back up to the potential and attempting to see if he could allow the experience. The development of the Doctor’s core personality deserves a closer look.
This is a lovely point. I think I’m always seeing things through the TV production lens that stepping back and treating it like linear character progression rarely occurs to me
@@mattthesilent777RED could be interesting. Jodi’s Doctor loved referring to the Fam, but she rarely showed the time and development of bonding and helping her Fam develop their own stories which other Doctors seem to do flawlessly in modern who and near the end of Classic Who.
@@Joe_Brennan_ Though it does fall under "S7 Eleven being quite unfortunate" umbrella briefly referenced this vid and sadly people at the time complained louder when the married couple actually DID kiss in series 8
@@MaxAutoAttack yeah I was actually looking for more footage to display 11's unfortunateness and it slipped my mind. I chose not to mention it in the script but it definitely could've helped illustrate my point visually.
In general i just love how Twelve's five relationships cover such a wide spectrum: Twelve/Clara as the soulmates who should just kiss already ffs Twelve/River as the sexy old married couple Twelve/Missy as flirty best mates who hate each others guts Twelve/Bill as a sweet paternal friendship and Twelve/Nardole as employer/employee (with sub/dom undertones.)
Have to disagree with the Twelve and Clara thing tbh. Platonic Soulmates work way better for their relationship. It's so rare to see a proper male/female friendship in media, and I find theirs to be so strong.
Yes! So glad to see someone else who thinks Twelve/Clara were romantic soulmates (albeit pretty dysfunctional ones). I'm always seeing people say they were 'glad they were not romantic' and while I understand the subjectivity of fictional media and how everything is up to individual interpretation, I thought the Twelve/Clara storyline was incredibly romantic, myself. But, of course, YMMV.
Yes, thank you. It's so nice to see people agreing 12 and Clara was a romantic pairing, just as much if not more so than 11 and Clara. My own personal interpration of the Doctor/Clara relationship is this; 11/Clara: Early, fun and flirtatious relationship. 11 is a bit reckless but knowing this is his last life he wants to have fun and doesn’t think to much about the inevitiable end. 12/Clara(series 8): Doctor, now being granted a whole new cycle of regenerations and having lived hundreds of years on Trenzolore wishes to make their relationship platonic because, while his feelings didn’t really change, he is more aware of their ending more then ever (See "If I hadn’t sent you away I would have buried you a long time ago"). This change in the Doctor allows Clara to explore more of her Earth life and fall for Danny 12/Clara(series 9): With Danny gone and both of them revealing they don't have a home/ boyfriend to return to Clara almost clings to the Doctor. This causes the Doctor to slowly lower his defenses and allow their relationship to become more and more romantic as it goes even though he knows it can never end well for either of them. Not just because of the life span difference but because they bring out both the best and worst in eachother yet he still can’t fully stop it because he doesn’t really want to. It's just a great story of 2 people who love eachother but at the same time is very much toxic for eachother in a way
The romance behind Nine and Rose is so incredibly subtle and pure - that's what I love about Season 1. On top of that, Chris Eccleston is totally authentic when it comes to Rose and the Doctor and you ask him about his opinion. It kind of gives the whole experience something really special. Given that Nine was actually planned for more seasons, you do wonder how the chemistry of the characters could have unfolded. In later shows, you got the feeling that every new showrunner wanted to top this romance, which personally got on my nerves. I like River and I think the story behind it is cool. But it seems kinda forced as well. And Clara got on my nerves at some point... In retrospect, these successive romantic storylines rob the authenticity between Nine and Rose. I much prefer character dynamics like Donna and Bill Potts. After a repeated re-watch, I've grown to love Martha Jones as well. Especially because the Doctor doesn't return her feelings, which is fresh in comparison to following companions. Girl in the fireplace was stupid on a romantic level. I'm sorry, but only a man could come up with that :D The stereotypical woman waiting for her hero. That's not romantic, that's silly and totally inappropriate in the context of the romance arc in Season 2 and unfair to Rose, who is not only left behind in this episode but portrayed as a poor and helpless sidekick. An episode pretty to look at as a standalone, but nothing more.
The Girl in the Fireplace is such a beloved episode for so many, but I'm honestly kind of glad I'm not alone in my personal feelings about it. I don't HATE the episode, but the more times I watch it, the less impressed I am. While I think it worked okay as an exploration of the Doctor's loneliness and the complexity of his lifestyle, and the general plot and storytelling made for some interesting Doctor Who, I don't find the love story very convincing and I think it's bizarre how Rose and Mickey are just sort of left out of the action in the story for no other reason than to make it all about the Doctor and Reinette. Also, while Ten was known to be impulsive at times and a bit of a romantic, I could never wrap my head around him just deciding to abandon both his companions and the Tardis with no known way of getting back for someone he just met and from his perspective, maybe spent a few hours with at the most. Some people will argue, "Oh, but he's a Time Lord and he would have figured something out." But the point is that he had no way of knowing that and he barely seemed concerned about the fact that he had his beloved ship and two friends, who RELIED on him to take care of them and get them home, waiting for him thousands of years in the future. And as much as all of Reinette's amazing qualities were talked about, they were never really shown to the audience, and she was reduced to little more than a damsel in distress who spent her entire life waiting for the Doctor. Honestly, I can see why many people consider it this epic bittersweet romantic fantasy --- but it just isn't for me, I guess. I think romance in DW has been handled much better elsewhere.
I have three thoughts after watching this: - I agree that, regardless of whether I think the Doctor SHOULD have lots of romantic relationships, I really did love Rose and River's romances. (Rose because they built up the chemistry and compatibility so gradually and convincingly; River because it felt more like how I felt a Doctor romance could naturally go if they had one - essentially equals, random and chaotic, not really into it but gradually the person just became too important a presence their heart(s).) - I really dislike it in any show when the main characters are going from romance to romance. It starts to cheapen them all and feel boring, plus it feels like the easy way to insert drama rather than having something truly different and interesting. As you said, there are so many different types of relationships that are interesting, and they provide opportunities to bring out and explore/develop other aspects of The Doctor we haven't really seen in New Who. I honestly felt that giving Clara a Danny and how they used him end up making the series tiresome at times. Let's have romance in the show but let's not overeat. - Finally, I rarely find I'm truly, deep-down convinced that the Doctor who was once 1-7 would really feel romantically for most of these young little humans. Those incarnations are not really portrayed as being romantically/sexually inclined at all and so, while I don't think that means every incarnation has to be aroace, it feels like romantic leanings would be rare and wouldn't necessarily look like traditional human romances if it does occur. (I don't read Clara x 12 as true romance, but I do think their platonic married couple know-each-other-too-well vibe suits the kind of equivalent relationships the Doctor is more likely to have.) . I guess in the end, although I don't agree with your desire for a lot of romance, we would both be satisfied if they were more careful with how and when they write romance for the Doctor and feel there are good opportunities to explore different types of relationships for the Doctor and to write good romance between non-Doctor characters. (AmyRory good, not ClaraDanny...) Thanks for the thoughtful video!
I like to think doctors after 8 are open to romance because of 8s regeneration. 8s regeneration went wrong, so he had to absorb human dna. This is why 8 is half human and the capacity to have a romance in a very human way stuck with him. Just a headcanon of mine. The one thing im against doing us retroactively applying romance to classic Doctors. Like they did with Sarah Jane. Its possible Sarah Jane made it more romantic in her head during the decades but it still doesn't fit her relationship with 3 or 4 tbh.
i love when video essays like this have a black-and-white phrased question with a nuanced answer that boils down to "yes and no." i think that it really makes sense that there isn't one straightforward answer to this question, because it really is all in the eye of the consumer
that being said, i love doctor who romance and hope to see it tackled at least a little bit in the 15th doctor's run. it would be great to see an openly gay actor play a character who is explicitly stated to be having an openly gay romance
@@logicallyanxiousI think it would be great too, although don't want to pigeonhole Ncuti into having his sexuality define his Doctor. If it happens, I'll be happy. If not, I won't be disappointed.
And thank you for the comment! It's nice to know that the almost clickbait-esque extreme of the title leading to a more subtle answer was a positive, rather than a negative
@@Joe_Brennan_ what i think would be great is that if there is a romance (which, if there isn't, i'll still be super happy and excited because i think he's going to do great) i'd like it to be the kind where sexuality isn't even brought up. with all of the male-presenting doctors and their romances with women, there was no point to saying "woah, a man and a woman are kissing, this is so unique and crazy!" it was simply two people who liked each other. i would want it to be same if there's a relationship between the doctor and a man
I've personally never been big on Doctor/Companion romances, much prefer either no romance or romance between companions. I did enjoy Amy's Choice, which called out some of the problematic aspects of the Doctors relationships "The old man prefers the company of the young" "Friends are people you stay in contact with, your friends never see you again"
When you got to the 12 and Clara section it almost made me cheer out loud! Finally a whotuber who understands that they have a romantic relationship! They are my favorite Doctor Who couple and frustrates me so much when people try to erase this aspect and call them father and daughter or just friends. Fun fact, Peter Capaldi himself called 12 and Clara a truly romantic relationship!
I feel like it's hard to fit their relationship into a single category given its complexity, but imo Twelve and Clara were each other's significant other in every way that really mattered. And honestly I'm not sure how you could watch The Magician's Apprentice where the Doctor plays "Pretty Woman" for Clara, then asks her, "When do I not see you?" and not interpret that as romantic.
Messy as 10s relationships were, it really worked. 11 definitely should have stayed asexual, got really weird with clara. 12 was like 10 but lept straight into the toxicity before going platonic.
As sad as Rose's story was, nothing hits me harder than Donna's ending I'm ready for a complete break from Doctor related romances, if there needs to be a show romance for now I think it can be between companions I just think having longer breaks between the romances makes them each feel more impactful, like after rose the doctor was still sad about her for 2 season which really makes the rewatch of their relationship hit harder
I’ve always thought that it worked for most fans when there was a good romance in the TARDIS that didn’t involve the Doctor, and it worked for less fans when it did. That would always be my preference because, while it’s fun to watch people fall and be in love, it just feels weird for a nearly ageless being to be in love with a 19 year old girl. The Doctor has so many more interesting avenues to explore than his romantic feelings for his companions
I think the romances involving the doctor and companions work better when it's a new incarnation of the Doctor, because in many ways they're much younger. There are obviously still power dynamic issues, but new incarnations of the Doctor are still getting to know and understand themselves much like a young adult, which offsets that somewhat. They also tend to latch on to whoever's closest like they're afraid they'll lose themselves if they don't.
I was never a fan of the Doctor having romantic realtionships with his Companions due to why would a 2,000+ year old alien fall in love with a20+ year old mortal human, but your logic here has kind of turned me around somewhat. Again, it needs to be done in a logical way and have some pertinence to the overall story, but it can work as long as it's not overdone or made super melodrammatic. I always loved Clara's reltionship with 12. Yes, she and 11 were kind of flirty, but her relationship with 12 was beautiful and set up the tradegy of her death and its impact on 12 in Heaven Sent and then its impact on Clara in Hell Bent when the Doctor is sitting right in front of her but no longer remembers her. For all of Hell Bent's flaws those scenes in diner are heart breaking between 12 and Clara. She tries to hold back the tears when he says if he ever met her again he would recognize her immediately. That's true, love, pain and loss being displayed in those few seconds. Those two will be my forever couple in Doctor Who, I will ship them any day!
I really appreciate this take. It seems like most people either love or hate the romance in DW, but you take quite a nuanced and balanced approach to discussing it. While I know the Rose/Doctor romance is divisive among fans, I've always really enjoyed it. Especially given where the Doctor was at emotionally at the time. The loss of his planet and people was still weighing heavily on him, and Rose was someone who came into his life at just the right time, brought out the best in him, and made him feel like he had somewhere to belong. The tragedy of their relationship was that the Doctor knew it couldn't last, but he still hung on to the illusion that it could for as long as possible, and that made it sting even more when they lost each other. His decision to be the strong one and let her go in the end, giving her a chance at a happy ending with the Metacrisis Doctor who could love her in a way that he simply couldn't, was heartbreaking. I loved this more human element of the Doctor's story that RTD introduced. That said, do I think that romance is something Doctor Who needs or even should do all the time? No. Some of my favorite Doctor/companion relationships have been non-romantic --- such as Ten/Donna and Twelve/Bill. And I actually think the show could use more of those types of dynamics in the Modern era. But I'm not actively against romance either as long as it is well-written or tied to the characters' individual arcs in a meaningful way.
Another fantastic video essay Joe, absolutely loved it. It's wonderful to hear someone tackle this topic with such nuance - you have a real flair for concise analytical essays!
Instant subscribe. The two things I've always got to be sure of before listening to people talk about Doctor Who is that they're pro-kissing and pro-Clara Oswald!
I fully read Clara/ 12 as just extremely close friends. I don't get a romantic chemistry between them, but I do fully see a strong platonic love. I also really love that it's not necessarily that healthy a relationship between them either. I think it is so unique and well done and I think making it a romance weakens that element personally
twelveclara has to be the most intimate and well executed romance in all of doctor who, especially because of how subtextual it is. the lengths they go to make sure the other is merely ALIVE, whether is ends in their own pain, is absolutely just soulmatism. i love my friends, and i would probably be in a torture chamber for a million years for them. but 4.5 billion years? that's "truly romantic" love at it's purest. (don't hate me, peter capaldi himself used that wording to describe their relationship! hence the quotes)
I love twelve and clara too but i really, really think that suggesting romantic love is more powerful than friendship could ever be is a detrimental sentiment. I believe the doctor would stay in a torture chamber for billions of years for donna, but that doesn’t make them inherently romantic. once again i’m so on board with your view of clara and twelve but i don’t think that’s proof that the doctor would do more for romance than for friendship-or that anyone would.
@@thatpeskyrat honestly, the reasoning i wrote in the comment isnt even the main reason i find them the best and most i herently romantic ship between the docfor and a companion. it was just the one i thought people would get quicker than me going into my extreme twelveclara scene analysis (which i do often) 😭
I'm of the opinion that if 2 actors have obvious romantic chemistry it makes no sense to force the characters to be platonic. Rose and the Doctor needed to be romantic, there was just so much chemistry between the actors. (Side note- rose, doctor and captain jack were a polyamorous triple I will fight people on this)
"im like the bbc, only impartial" is prolly your best joke. big fan and if that content you hope will find an audience doesnt include mr. hunt i will be PISSED (privately to myself and not bother anyone about it)
what I probably like the most in 12th and Clara's relationship is that it is non-sexual and non-romantic although this is very obviously love. if you want you can absolutely read sexual attraction and romance into it - like you said, it's ambiguous. But it's just fine without these undertones, it's already very rich and complex and these uncrossed lines and steps not taken only add to this complexity
I'm so aro/ace that I see the doctor and madame de pompadour kiss and I'm like wow what good friends xD don't even occur to me that it was a romantic relationship until i watch this video 🙃
I see romance as being a natural part of the Doctor's experiences when one considers their life. Nine was the last of his kind when he met Rose. Of course he'd be more eager to grab onto someone and make her a confidant compared to his earlier selves. If One to War wanted someone who could get them, they could go back to Gallifrey, Nine onwards can't. If there ever was a time to downplay romance in the new show, Series 10 would have been it. My fav is Doctor/Clara. I like how their dynamic changed each series. Honeymoon in Series 7, bickering married couple in Series 8 and cool old couple living out of their VW camper van in Series 9 who are perfectly in sync. Their romance and how it evolved felt like a natural part of their character arcs. I like Doctor/Rose for the same reason but I don't really like Series 2 so that kind of spoils it for me. My least fav I would think is probably Doctor/River. It had to share time with Amy/Rory, the Doctor's relationships with the Ponds and the Silence arc. It never had the time to breathe and show these two together during Eleven's tenure or develop River outside of it (compare to the development Rose and Clara got). And while I love the idea of the Doctor meeting someone out of order, I don't think it worked for romance. Their wedding for example feels to me like the Doctor doing a fake wedding so River will clean up and go to bed given the differing points in their timeline, compared to Rose and Nine's kiss feeling like a natural end to the journey they've been on throughout Series 1. I got that River loved Eleven, but I was never sold that Eleven loved River. Though after "The Husbands" voiced that, I do have the theory that Eleven was just keeping the timeline intact and it's only in those 24 years that Twelve began to love her. Where will Fifteen fit? I don't know. But knowing RTD, they'll be some romance vibes. I think I'd like Fifteen and Ruby to start as flirty best friends at first but, depending on how long either stays, they miss their chance. We had a tease of that with Sarah and Ten but I think that's an approach they could explore more.
I thinked the same about River since 2013/2014, Clara really looked more the Doctor's wife than her and really more a love interest. And the wedding with River really looked forced but in a way of the 11th Doctor doing the right thing. For 12th and River, i see he got more nostagia about her, but i don't know if love feelings; maybe as you said he started to love her on those 24 years (due the photography on series 10)
@@DalekRaptor Yes I fully agree. It always shocks me that Alex and Matt have such good chemistry yet River and Eleven's interactions are so forced. And I know it's not a writing issue since, as you said, Clara naturally feels like the Doctor's love interest and borderline wife. And yes, perhaps it was just nostalgia. After all he'd just lost his beloved Clara and learnt that you have to let go of things.
i think it's fine having romance in doctor who, but there also has to be times when he could not give a single shit about it. Tom Baker's Doctor was hilarious in that aspect. "I'm sure your pretty." lmao
Personally, I prefer the official Classic approach, even as I acknowledge 4/Romana [especially No. 2] was likely romantic just because pacifist ace male leads outside of early age TV are just incredibly rare. That said, if we're going to assassinate another Chaste Hero officially for yet another Sexualized Person, at least keep it to Time Lords...ergo the best are... 1. Doctor x Husband/Wife Time Lord that begat Susan's parents...just because Susan came of it. [why the writers never get around to addressing this one I just don't get!] 2. Doctor x Romana 3. Doctor x Mistress/Master 4. Doctor x River Song And the only acceptable human pairing is Doctor x Elizabeth I, just because of the audacity! Everything else is only meant to be stomached.
Nicely balanced analysis. For me its not that I object to the The Doctor feeling love but that its always boxed into being romance (and yes I do agree that its been quite oversaturated in NuWho). One of the greatest aspects of the Classic series was that (although it was unspoken) there was a sense that the Doctor and his companions did 'love' each other but in a platonic way - yet the connection was so strong they would do anything for one another, even sacrificing themselves to save a life (cough cough Five). I absolutely agree that there needs to be a deep feeling between them in order to create impact when they die/leave etc but the lovey dovey, smooching aspect is not really my bag. I wasn't fond of the Rose/Doctor coupling but it made sense developmental so I could live with it but I would have preferred if that was the oddity rather than the start of more of the same. I will say that my exception to the rule is the Doctor and River, the wibbly wobbly timey wimey story and chemistry between them was top notch, its really the only truly romantic pairing I like with the Doctor.
Since Capaldi's era the romance has toned down a lot. I'm kinda glad as although I love the Tennant era it was a bit difficult to overlook the constant romance. This new RTD era looks like he's focused on friendship/companionship more than romance.
It’s great to hear somebody voice a completely different opinion from mine in such a clever way. I personally just don’t like romance plots in gerneral, but after this I’ll agree they have the potential to enhance a story (even in Doctor Who) plus I thought the romance between Charlie and the 8th doctor was handled quite well.
You’re absolutely right about the emotions and vulnerability from romance adds more depth and edge to the storylines and subsequently make it more engaging…I also believe there’s a lot to be said about drawing a new audience in with a potential romance plot it works like a charm.
I thought I hated romance storylines (and stories in general) but what I recently found out is that I just hate badly written ones, of course ksks also if it's gay I'm already 50% on board, so it doesn't need much more work ksks my faves are rose and Tennant, I liked river song and the doctor sometimes and I haven't seen Yaz and the doctor so I don't know but that image of Yaz carrying 13th got me interested, like I said before, I'm easy that way ksks
That’s so real. Unfortunately there’s not a huge amount more to Yaz and the Doctor than I showed in this video, but by the sounds of it, it might be enough for you.
Great presentation. Because I don't follow Doctor Who, it is difficult to comment on the ins and outs of things... yes that came out wrong but I'm not sure if there's another way to say it.. Having different actors play 'different' Doctors with different personalities keeps the these stories available with the ability to stay fresh. But if this was one actor and one 'character' it would be very different circumstances. It would be like Riker from Star Trek who had a fling on every second planet, when someone is so liberal with relationships, it's difficult to take them seriously when they are supposed to be actually serious about someone. I know enough to know the Doctor is very different to Riker but I took things to the extreme to make my point. Like I said last time, great to see you back making content.
"Clara, I'm not your boyfriend" "I never thought you were" "I never said it was your mistake" Plus in the Caretaker, part of the reason he treats Danny so poorly is that he liked the idea that Clara was in love with the teacher with the bow tie (who bore a striking resemblance to 11) and was disappointed that it was someone else. Kind of a weird, indirect unrequited love but with the context of her time with 11 and that line in Deep Breath, there definitely is a romantic angle that the show explores in different ways.
Yes. Well from the Doctor's side at least. if it's the companions, like Amy and Rory, I'm okay with it. You can't really deny... that in distant future... there will be another "River Song" as in... a future lover that dear closed to the Doctor... Also, again, I'm writing the comment before watching your video, gonna watch it after work, heheh
Upon listening to Big Finish’s Diary of River Song series, I was really shocked by how well the romance angle works for the Classic Doctors, which has helped convince me that it’s not just some unwelcome addition from the new series. Like I never expected the 6th doctor of all people to fall head over heels in love with River, but being such a romantic felt so right for his character. I also like how the series still acknowledges that certain Doctors don’t entirely fit that mould, like 7 being way too paranoid and controlling; or 5 still abiding by the ole ‘no hanky panky’ rules from the 80’s, which made for some interesting drama in of itself.
I’m a soft touch for a good romantic subplot but I do think they should maybe cool it down a little. It sort of gives diminishing returns after awhile if there’s always someone who goes moon eyed over the doctor without enough of a break between them. I love it when there are one off romantic subplots with historical figures, those are pretty fun
im still waiting for an anime adaptation of doctor who where he has a harem, i would also like to see a version of the doctor that gave up saving the universe just to pick up woman
I don't think it has enough romance. An underrated romance in Doctor Who is the one in Orphan 55 between Ryan and Bella, I think it's very brief but rather sweet!
You're right actually, it's always nice when companions have a spark with someone from a standalone episode. Even if it does sometimes lead to... Adam.
Also, as someone who always hated Rose (my least fave companion of the entire show's history...and I'm including the entire Classic series in that) and loved Martha (actually my fave companion), I definitely agree that was where the whole romance side of things went terribly wrong. I personally thought the Doctor was INCREDIBLY out of character during S3 in the way he treated Martha. I mean, yes, he supposedly wasn't attracted to her (which I personally disagree with, but YMMV), but there were plenty of other companions in his life that were platonic that he treated with far more respect. And I'm still pretty bitter about it, TBH. Martha deserved better. 😡
I also love Martha (she has always been my favourite) but I also love Rose - I don't really believe that we must pit these characters against each other, since that is exactly what the doctor did in season 3. I kind of views s3 as an anti love story. A story about Martha realising that the doctor just won't treat her like she deserves and she must leave for her own sake. The way I read it, it's a metaphor for an unhealthy situationship of sorts - the doctor wants to go on one more "trip" with Martha, but without making her his "companion". And I think that is very in character for men who have just lost someone they love
@@initiatinreallife I'm honestly not trying to pit Rose and Martha against one another, I just don't like Rose at all -- whether its in relation to any other character or not. I totally get that some people do pit them against one another (especially people who started with the modern series and never watched the Classic Series -- which is not me, as I've been watching the show since the 80s), especially because one came after the other, but I just happen to love one and hate the other, despite the order they were in the Doctor's life. It's just coincidence. As for the way the Doctor behaves in S3, it's difficult for me, because it still feels OOC. I mean, I see what you're saying, but I personally never got the impression he loved Rose as much as she loved him and so his behavior doesn't track for me (especially considering I'd seen him lose LOADS of other people -- including his own grand-daughter -- and never held that loss against the following companion). I mean, he definitely missed Rose, I'm sure, but it never seemed that deep to me. In fact, when I was first watching S3 and Ten said to Martha that he and Rose 'were together', I remember thinking I'd missed an episode or something, because I personally never clocked them (Rose/Doctor) as a romantic pairing. Yes, I thought Rose had a teenage crush on the Doctor and the Doctor was fond of Rose back (like a BFF), but it didn't feel like romantic love to me. IDK, that could've just been from growing up on Classic Who where similar interactions between the Doctor and companions were always being classified as platonic (holding hands, in each other's personal space, etc), but suddenly that was meant to be some grand romance now instead? I just didn't buy it. But, obviously, YMMV.
@NicoleMazza The reason I said that we shouldn't pit them against each other was that you mentioned hating Rose while praising Martha. I don't see why you would have to mention Rose, to say that Martha is a great character. It seemed to me like you were putting them as alternatives to each other. If you don't see that Rose and the doctor were together, you're just reading the show differently than most people - and I think you're reading it differently that RTD intended. Which is fine, art is defined by how it can be interpreted differently. But the doctor stating that they were together is done to get rid of any ambiguity that season 2 still had, so that his behaviour in season 3 would make sense. If you read Rose as having a teenage crush, that is also fine, but do keep in mind that she is 20 in season 2. She is not a teenager and doesn't behave like one imho. RTD clearly didn't intend Rose and the Doctor to be platonic, neither in season 1 nor in season 2. And I think to get what season 3 is trying to do, at least, we must accept at face value that the doctor loved Rose and can't get over her. That makes a lot of his behaviour far more understandable and Martha's character journey more amicable because she grows above him. She is not like him, who can't get over his past love. That's where she surpasses him.
To be fair, between the Twelfth Doctor under Moffat and the Thirteenth Doctor under Chibnall, they definitely dialed back the on-screen kissing, at least involving the Doctor.
Yes, there was a problem until 13 then again there was Thasmin but that was more of a last second sort of thing, other than that 13 was relatively straight forward aswell as the later half of 10, series 4 specifically since Donna is the only main companion of The Doctor that didn't have a romantic interest in him at the time until 11 came along with the whole River thing which really sucked.
Very interesting video! I tend to be more on the side of wanting less romance (despite being a hopeless romantic in some ways LOL), but I don't strongly object to any of the major examples, it's just some stuff could've been done better in execution. It does usually add something at least. I think what we really need is another Doctor/Nardole. /j If you asked me to pick a fave... younger me would probably call me mad but I think it might be Twelve/Clara? I haven't watched Series 8 in years and while it kind of threw me off the show cuz I was in my anti-Moffat phase, I do remember genuinely finding their dynamic really interesting there. I rewatched some stuff in the lead up to the 60th, mostly RTD to be ready to compare to his new era but I also took the chance to watch parts of Series 9 because I skipped it (again, aformentioned anti-Moffat phase). And well, to my surprise, I actually found myself being reminded of how much I like them together again. I expected to hate Hell Bent after hearing how infamous it was, but then despite a few (admittedly major) issues I actually liked it quite a bit? I guess as I've aged I've learned to embrace my love of tragic doomed romances, especially in a relationship where Twelve and Clara compliment each other so well but also bring out the worst in each other. I can see why it's too much for some people, especially in Series 8 when their characterisation could get pretty dark, but I do appreciate it more with age now I guess. I don't even know if I see it as romantic, it could be but I could easily being its own weird unique thing, like a queerplatonic dynamic or something.
I'm saying this without having seen the full video yet but: 100% disagree. Not in a "you're wrong" way, just in a "I don't agree with you on this matter" way. I will forever see The Doctor being romantically involved as a 54 year old man with a toddler and I wholeheartedly reject it.
okay now that segway joke was next level and the kind of stuff i watch your videos for besides the based opinions. Also, completely unrelated but i think this is pretty funny, my mum absolutely despises peter capaldi's doctor, she just can't stand him, she always has to look away, look at someone else, but we're nearly up to heaven sent so she's going to have to face her fears.
Personally I don't think the Doctor experiences romantic attraction in the conventional sense, at least not towards humans. My interpretation is that he did love Rose but in a complicated way that we mere mortals can't comprehend, but leans more towards platonic than romantic. That doesn't make Doomsday any less devastating for me, it's a different kind of love but just as real as Rose's more romantic love for him. As for River, their marriage was originally for plot reasons IIRC so I think the Doctor just went along with that because he had to, before eventually growing to love River, but again in a complicated Time Lord way. To me it just feels strange to neatly label the Doctor's relationships as either platonic or romantic, as I feel the line is somewhat blurred for humans, let alone for a millennia-old alien. But as you say, it's all just vibes, and this was a great and balanced video!
I have cherished Dr Who since I first saw it as a kid. The only thing I never liked about the old Dr Who series was its sterile vibe. This was corrected with 10 and Rose (and others) and 11 and 12 with Clara. I shall always remember a video short with Rose and 10’s final scene on the beach with a man dressed in historical costume playing a providential violin piece in the background giving the occasion an Old-World Mythical air of cultural folklore and legend. No such cultural treasure would ever have come out of the sterile old series. But if a sterile vibe was not bad enough, the potential crucible of folklore and legend has been disastrously sacrificed on the altar of wokeness via LGBTQ and race-swapping.
There might be some kissing in both my main universe and the Chameleon Universe, I just always try to give an actual reason for it happening. I can actually say that two incarnations of the Doctor in the Chameleon Universe have better writing when it comes to sexual orientation than Jodie Whittaker got, look at her Doctor and Yaz, they failed miserably, not just because they ain't canon
Though I understand your points, I do disagree with you. In my opinion, the Doctor should not feel romantic attraction. Due to this trait the Doctor has become a very relatable figure to AroAce (aromantic and/or asexual) people like myself. I think this show - better than any other piece of media - can show how close, loving and intimate platonic relationships can be. I agree that the Doctor and Clara for instance are deeply in love with one another, but on a purely platonic level. And I think that’s beautiful and terribly under-represented in media. Romantic relationships can still play a role in the companions. Rory and Amy are a fantastic example, but I think Bill and Heather are my favourite romantic plot line; their love was the subtle series arc of series 10 with it culminating in Heather’s love for Bill saving both her and the Doctor. So, I agree that romance is and should stay an essential part of Doctor Who, but don’t believe the Doctor themselves should experience such attraction.
Haha got me at the beginning, but i completely agree. The only reason people dont like romance on screen is because its done poorly in so many shows. If dome right though it makes a show mich better
I agree with your perspective on this really, I used to be of the opinion that Doctor/companion romance was just bad, full stop. I think a large part of this was down to me not liking Ten/Rose as a pairing (and to be honest, I still don't, they can be really insufferable at points and results in them being quite unlikable at times), but then again as you mentioned there's clear romantic subtext in Twelve and Clara's interactions, and they're a GOATED pairing, so clearly I can like a Doctor/companion romance, it just depends on the circumstances. And the fact that there's been such a variety in terms of what kind of romantic relationships we've seen over the years definitely helps in that regard. Rose's relationship with Ten was like a high school crush; Twelve's relationship with Clara was a toxic co-dependent hot mess; River and the Doctor were like an old married couple (with all three of her Doctors); and Thirteen and Yaz were...well, they existed. So yeah, there's no real black-and-white approach to romance in this show, it can be good or bad, it just depends on how it's written
I don’t like it when they insist on putting the Doctor into a romance because it was nice to have just one heroic lead character on the asexual/aromantic spectrum (who wasn’t cold/uncaring/totally lacking in empathy*). Multiple new and classic writers and Doctors have endorsed that take on the character explicitly over the years, it was a popular default fan read for ages, and something is genuinely lost when writers abandon it. Frankly I’m surprised you didn’t mention it at all, especially since you mention the importance of queer representation as an argument /for/ more romance! (Also the serial nature of the program does make the romance with 19 year old companions thing uncomfortable IMO. Because once you start down that road it starts to be weird that the Doctor keeps traveling with a string of such young women, when obviously in the real world it’s a practical choice to balance the cast!) I’ll freely admit to being inconsistent on both these points sometimes - I enjoy aspects of Eight/Charley’s dynamic and some of the Nine/Rose and Doctor/River Song stories, too. *incidentally also why autistic/neurodivergent doctor interpretations are so appealing - he’s a character who rejects many of the negative/misguided tropes and still invites these readings.
I missed both Clara and no a 11 as a couple .They were like a married couple with no 11 being behaving like an immature kid and Clara being the boss. Matt should have done anotger series with Clara .No12 and River Song could had done more eposides travelling together. BALDLY missed oppportunities .
Whats wrong with the doctor having a bit of romance? I here people criticising the fact that tennent was too human. Too human! The humanity of a character is what makes them great.
They should go all in on the Doctor/Master romance!! It is time. It would be a mess, but it could be done and they can bring in memory loss to restore canon as many times as they want I don't care! They always have the craziest chemistry and it's a very complicated relationship already. Surprising that Missy/12th were not mentioned, I loooooooove their kiss. This could work for the new Doctor especially, since I feel like the new companion (for now) looks very similar to Rose for it to not be weird to have a romantic arc between her and the Doctor
This is my favorite ship. They break my heart and I love every second of it! haha. I had so much hope for 12/Missy and I do hope someone will be willing to at least experiment with their relationship like that again. I kind of see them as like, very star-crossed soulmates? Except that it's largely because of their own doings. I don't know but I'm obsessed. I've been thinking of doing a fanfic version. Agreed that the new companion looks like Rose and I'm thinking that maybe it will be a matter of making us think we're getting Rose again only to subvert our expectations somehow. I don't see RTD doing the same thing again.
Honestly, I am a bit tired of the romance. I feel it would be good to have asexual Doctor for some time. I liked the resolution of most romances, the heartbreak of Rose (even though that's the one I dislike the most, I just think Rose worked better with Ecclestion, and their sexual tension wasn't that explicit), but then I didn't like how Martha was just another girl in love with the Doctor (even though I admit it did gave them different chemistry). I loved 10 and Donna the most, because of the buddy movie vibe they had. Same with 12 with Nardole and Bill. I think I'd like people to be mates for a bit. We just had a very long running River storyarc and the headcanon only Thasmin arc, that was there or wasn't there, but it was something people talked about. Now I want just mates. Chill down with romanticizing Doctor. Not closing this door shut of course. There can be a bit of romance later.
When S1 aired it made more sense for it to have romance since it was introducing itself to a new audience but since then we've seen the Doctor age more than 1000 years in show Time. Can't also ignore how weird and kinda creepy it would be for a millenary alien to smooch and groom a 19 year old chav or anyone younger than 500 years or something. His mindset and maturity are literally centuries beyond her, it's like if a 50 year old dated a 14 year old or something.
I don’t think you can make such a strict parallel to a problematic real world situation when 2000 year old aliens aren’t a thing we have to consider irl
@@Joe_Brennan_ im not being strict just saying make the dude date an alien closer his age when they obviously exist in Universe. You can have romance and it being written better otherwise makes the Doctor seems like a lameo who goes for young girls.
@NTNG13 But like - he isn't real. And as someone who was 19 not too long ago and loved Nine and Rose then and now (and unfortunately has experiences with creepy men): A fictional relationship that is supposed to feel like falling in love with the wonders of the universe didn't come off as creepy to me. It's not something creepy men could use to justify their actions. More importantly, it's from Rose's point if views. River, who is actually the doctor's age, was far more creepy to me since he actually held her as a child, and also, her whole life revolved around his. If you don't like the pair, that's fine - you be comfortable or uncomfortable with whatever you like. But I really is a matter of personal taste and nothing else.
![ละลาย (LALALYE) - DAOU PITTAYA ต้าห์อู๋ พิทยา [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wo6r9TgausI/mqdefault.jpg)
Tell me your favourite Doccy Who romance right now OR ELSE!
Doccy and the Jamester
Three way tie between 4/Sarah (controversial I know), 9/Rose and 12/Clara.
@@tigorelloensil3676 oh I should’ve mentioned them, though footage is hard to come by. And maybe Mr Hines wouldn’t be too thrilled.
@@loislane7482 I love these actually because not a single one of them is non-controversial
@@Joe_Brennan_What can I say, I'm all about the subtext. 😂
doing a series one rewatch is realizing that Nine is so in love with Rose from the get and that was so much fun to experience. I think the subtlety with how they show their love for each other is expressed is honestly why I enjoyed it so much.
I'm surprised it ever managed to go over my head!
- “…Clara’s doctors exist on opposing ends of the young and sexy spectrum”
- I will not stand for Capaldi slander!
- cont. “with Smith being young and Capaldi being sexy”
I’ve never been so relieved by the punchline of a joke.
Gotta both acknowledge the general narrative AND set it right
@@Joe_Brennan_ And you did so in a way that would make RTD proud
Address, debunk, balance, all in two lines.
Thing is with Rose, I always saw that he fell in love with Rose because she literally brought him out of the darkest time of his life. Like how a soldier would fall in love with and marry a nurse that cared for them after war. Rose isn't even my favourite companion but that's how I always saw it anyway.
It’s a lovely way to look at it
thee really funny thing is - i was just discussing this with someone. I really feel that the "love story" between rose & the doctor would have been much more stronger to me had they made it more of a familial love (as in a father/daughter relationship) vs. a romantic one. Rose's big achilles heel was Pete and I feel had the show leaned into this more it would have been a bit more poignant. [and I feel the loss would have been more? - if this makes sense. and it wouldn't have hurt martha - who also mooned over the doctor).
admittedly. i stop watching Doctor Who by the time i get to Season seven because i really can't even even with River and Clara, but i am doing a rewatch and i am going to try to give every season and companion a fair chance.or at least try to anyway. my feelings about the romance is like... for me i just didn't get the Rose/Doctor one. (how you said it is sweet. but it still doens't work for me)
fall in love yes but marry? some loves are just for that time and place, love born of trauma bonding rarely ever blossoms into a full "let's do life together"
@@lapniappe if you make it through river and clara, you get one absolutely glorious season of twelve without romance. It's worth it
@@cement_eater I keep hearing that too. but then we have a whole other problem. but i have heard Capaldi's Bill Season is really good outside of being hammered home some aspects of what set up the Seasons I refuse to watch
I think they've just got to keep finding new stories to tell, and if those involve romance, why not? We've seen unrequited love on the show before but what if the Doctor fell in love with someone who didn't love them back? That'd be quite humbling for a character who's sometimes a bit too universally adored (in-universe, I mean) and something I think Jodie Whittaker could have played well
ooh, that would be good
I'd love to see it, as you said it'd very much flip the dynamic a little. You don't expect a sunset to admire you back, especially when you're not paying attention to it.
That would be interesting. I'd disagree with giving that plot to Jodi, but mainly because she's the FIRST female Doctor we see. The male Doctors get to be adored, the female Doctor has to pine, just like the male Masters get to be cruel and chaotic, the female Master had a softening heart(s). Regardless of whether they did or could do it really well, it's a pity to give those storylines to the characters only in the rare instances they're female.
They should do a romance where it’s The Doctor and a alien. I’d watch the hell out of like the Doctor in a relationship with a Drashig or something
He has already kissed a Zygon, so it seems like the logical next step!
I am so very down for that.
'With Smith being young, and Capaldi being sexy!' LMAOOOOOOO TRUEEEE!
I’m here to speak my truth
@@Joe_Brennan_The NEW 'I'm here to dive into why!'
You're goddamn right, Mr Films.
@@seanhall6317Thanks Sean. How's the wife?
You're right, and you should say it@@Joe_Brennan_
i understand why it’s perceived as the death of clara and the doctor’s romance (moffat’s obsession with subtext and almost impressive ability to write lines nobody actually hears), but clara and danny is actually an affirmation of it, because it’s established in death in heaven that she was basically emotionally cheating on him with the doctor the whole time. she tells a cyberman that she loves the doctor more than anyone else and when she learns that the cyberman is danny she doesn’t correct herself. she just apologises. i’ve also seen it said that her relationship with danny was a consequence of her being a control freak, where she was trying to control her love for the doctor by replacing it with a normal, healthy romance. but s8 is filled with subtle and not subtle proof that she still very much loves the doctor. she literally says i love you to his face whilst on the phone to danny. incredible adultery. they’re so violently and insanely in love
You’ve gone into the specifics more than I could with a video that was about a broader topic, but I heartily agree.
I totally agree but also want to say that I don't think that her loving the doctor takes away from the fact that she also loves Danny. Not in the same way as the doctor, tho they both fall under romance to some degree. Love and romance can be really complicated sometimes and I think her emotional cheating with the Doctor doesn't negate any of the pain she shows for Danny's death or how she gives the words "I love you" to him
i love twelveclara dynamic 'cause it perfectly showcases why the doctor's romance with humans is bound to fail. having such a deep, obsessive love for a person who has a fragile and short life compared to the doctor, will make him break all the laws of the time to fix it, to cheat death, which ends in catastrophe. and if that person is so similar to him in every way except said human fragility, driving him to extremes even more. you want them to be together, they're on fire, but that fire is willing to take all the universe with them. damn i love s8-9.
I’m currently making my way through a rewatch of the full show for the first time in ages and I’m so so so excited to get to Capaldi’s era
“With Smith being young, and Capaldi being sexy” lmao
IT'S TRUE
The phrase about Smith being young and Capaldi being sexy is such a good line and it’s been living rent free in my head since I first watched this video.
I was happy with that one
we all know that 12 and nardole are the best couple of all, the reason you put them in that seperate catagory was because of how beautiful their romance arc was tbh
Yes of course. There’s nothing that compares to them. The closest the Doctor has come to settling down with someone.
i am a big fan of 9 and rose. i did like her with 10 too but with 9 the chemistry, subtle falling in love, everything is just is there. i love them!
I can’t BELIEVE I ever saw it as non romantic. I can’t believe there are people who deny it!
Ten and Donna will always be my absolute favorite Doctor-Companion duo. They had such _perfect_ chemistry playing off each other, while having absolutely _zero_ forced romantic tension to mess it all up that there usually is with female companions in the revival.
I'm not really a fan of the Doctor having love interests at all really, so Ten and Donna, and later Eleven with _both_ Amy and Rory, are some of my favorite times of the show.
(I also really liked series 8 Twelve, when he was much darker, more serious, and more alien; but then Moffat lightened him up too much in series 9 and 10 in some misguided attempt to make him more like Ten and Eleven)
tbh I don't think twelve becoming more lighthearted was a mistake at all. It was the natural consequence of his (great) arc in series 8, and he still wasn't nearly as goofy as ten and eleven.
That said, I agree regarding romance. Saying that romance alone elevates the impact of the material does a disservice to the show's platonic relationships in general. ten and donna being in love with each other wouldn't make journey's end hit any harder. I felt the same way about twelve and bill's relationship; keeping it parental was the right way to go
My favourite romance in the show will always be River and the Doctor. It didn't feel like it had a weird power imbalance, they had a lot in common, and the fact that she wasn't a full-time companion helped. That'll always be my Doctor Who OTP
I know there's a bunch of people who dislike the romance in 'Girl in the Fireplace', especially the Doctor/Rose shippers. But I honestly think it's excellently placed within the framework of S2, because it's basically a microcosm of Doctor/Companion romances, just on fast-forward. And so it's also a cautionary tale for Rose (and the Doctor) that such a deep connection is always only going to be fleeting for the Doctor and that loss and separation are on the road ahead.
I mean, yes, to many it seems strange that the Doctor would fall in love with Reinette when he's only known her less than a day (with her knowing him for many years on the other side of the coin). But for an alien who lives millions/thousands of years, only knowing someone for a year or two (Rose), is about the same as the Doctor/Reinette scenario in a way -- what is a day to the Doctor, is years and years to a human, and what is a few years to a human is barely the blink of an eye for the Doctor.
So, the Doctor falling in love with a person who's only in his life for 1-3 years, for example, is just a short emotional blip in his long life. Not that it makes him love any less, mind you, but it's just the reality of it. It's all just the juicy tragedy of the Doctor's relationship with his companions (especially those with a much shorter -- ex. human --- lifespan).
My favourite relationship has to be River. The clever timetravel element works so well on rewatches. Its the closest we've had to a non human relationship due to her timelord origin and shes just as versed in universe's nuances as him - they really felt on par with one another. Alot of the human companions felt subordiante to the Doctor whereas with River I loved seeing her one up him on occassion. I just wish she was in more episodes before her depature with 12. Apart from that I love the diversity of relationships the doctor has had in the modern era.
I really wanted more development to Thasmin but certainly enjoyed its subtleties.
With Russell really pushing new heights with the upcoming series I would love to see the Doctor explore LGBT relations and I can totally envisioning it happening. However, as you state I wouldnt mind if Ncuti was a palette cleanser and we just get a wholesome friendship between 15 and Ruby.
7:50 one reason why I love Clara and 12 is that they feel like the most balanced Doctor/Companion pairing (no River doesn’t count as a companion, she is her own time traveler who meets up with the Doctor) for 2 main reasons.
1)She had a life outside of the Doctor. In series 7 she was a nanny and in 8&9 she was a teacher. She may have traveled with the Doctor but she didn’t really live with him. They met up, had adventures then went their seperate ways, Clara to teaching or nannying and Doctor to whatever he gets up to when he is alone. I think this was especially a big problem with RTD era when companions almost fully moved into the TARDIS and sometimes went home to Earth
2)They are both the boss and the story treats them as such. Ofcourse Doctor has more knowledge and experience but Clara is just as cunning and manuplative as him, we see this loads but most noticiably in Flatline. There is also a little but consistent thread of Clara learning to pilpt the TARDIS. In JittCotT Doctor begins to teach Clara how to fly the TARDIS(which doesn’t end well) later Clara stops the TARDIS to argue with the Doctor in Kill the Moon. Aftewards in Mummy on the Orient Express them piloting the TARDIS together. Not to mention how in Caretaker that both of the can open&close the TARDIS doors with a snap, which is a detail I adore. It builds up slow and in the background but it is there. I can't remember other companions doing anything similar with the TARDIS, sure Yaz flies it but only when Doctor isn't there or she is knocked out/dying instead of going against the Doctor like Clara did
I don't really like River, she's one of my least favorite characters of recent Who. I found her day-to-day dynamic with the Doctor pretty grating throughout Eleven's run, and most importantly I felt a lot of her characterization during that time fell flat by just *telling* us how cool she was rather than letting her actually *do* cool things on screen. But I like the way you described their relationship here, and it certainly opened my mind to at least appreciating one aspect of her story. So thank you for that.
Glad I can add that perspective. I don’t think she always works in every story, but the broad strokes of the narrative are really great.
Still River is more a female Doctor that Jodie Whittaker.
Yeah I never liked River either
I agree and find it validating for someone to explain how romance can enhance the show. I'm also firmly in the camp that the Doctor fell in love with Rose as Nine (and she with him). It added a great dynamic that it continued on with Ten. For Doctor 15, I want him and Ruby to have a Donna/Ten buddy dynamic, with the intensity of Clara/Twelve. The "I'm willing to do almost anything for you."
It's not romance per se, but one thing I need from my Doctor/companion dynamic is the intensity. The devastation of Nine and Ten losing Rose. The freak out Eleven had at the idea of Amy's departure in The Angels Take Manhattan. Twelve avenging Clara for billions of years (refusing to let it go) in Heaven Sent.
I didn't want 13 and Yaz to have a romance, but I needed 13 to have more overt intensity about her companions (esp. Yaz or Ryan). It fits my headcanon that the Doctor's first companion post regeneration provokes the most intense feelings (and inability to let go voluntarily). Tragedy and involuntary circumstances parted 9 & Rose, 10 & Rose, 11 & Amy, 12 & Clara. But then 13 voluntarily sends Yaz away? It didn't fit with what I like to see. There should have been a tragic parting to force the Doctor to let go. Not just a, "think I need to do this next bit on my own."
Yeah I don't think there's ever been a more transparent "you need to leave now because you're not in the next era" companion departure. It's like Padme dying of sadness in Star Wars.
@@Joe_Brennan_ Exactly! I feel robbed that I never got to see that side of 13, regarding her companions. And I need to see that dynamic come back with 15. I need him to be strongly attached to Ruby. To need her around, the way 11 needed Amy to keep his moral compass from straying too far.
That's another dynamic 13 lacked with her companions. The idea that a companion could help the Doctor not go too far. Influence them for the better. I never felt 13's companions had that dynamic or influence over her.
I understand some people appreciated that the Fam & Dan all get lower key exits compared to most of the companions of the previous 10 series prior to Chibnall, but there is a difference between low key and dramatically limp. Ryan & Graham works okay, it's seeded a bit, and it's semi-earned, it's a fizzle rather than a bang, but it's used in contrast to Yaz, so it seemed forgivable, like the show is setting up that Yaz could never leave like this... only she broadly does? I mean, it isn't her choice exactly, but it's not a dramatic separation.
Martha is an interesting comparison point, as someone who has romantic feelings for the Doctor that aren't fulfilled, the difference is the Doctor apparently reciprocates the feelings for Yaz, only Martha gets a more rounded exit. By The Power of the Doctor I thought there were two exits potentially laid out ahead for Yaz, either the romance comes to some sort of a head, an acknowledgement, that leads to a tragic separation, or Yaz decides she needs to get out, like Martha, weirdly neither happens. Where's the drama? The passion? The fight?
I am up for more romance from the show in the future, but mostly what I'm excited about is the return of character dynamics.
As with so many of the shifts in tone between classic and new Who, I think the Time War can really help contextualise a lot of stuff. The Doctor was initially a far more alien alien, and the Time Lords in general had a real vibe of being “above” base emotions like love, being logical and scientific. Then the Doctor had to do one of the worse things imaginable and annihilate two whole species. After that, maybe the idea of love is more appealing. Maybe the enforced loneliness really opened their eyes and made them realise that they needed romantic love more than they knew.
Or possibly it was because the actors playing the Doctor became progressively more traditionally attractive.
The first adventure of the series starts out with the Doctor and his granddaughter. Theoretically, the Doctor has had a romance and a family the viewers have never been fully shown. As for the classic Doctors, I keep in mind these are actually younger versions of the Doctor, and perhaps a Doctor who stays away from romance after losing the aforementioned family. I also believe the 8th Doctor was willing to try again. After the Time War, the gravity of the loss opened the Doctor back up to the potential and attempting to see if he could allow the experience. The development of the Doctor’s core personality deserves a closer look.
This is a lovely point. I think I’m always seeing things through the TV production lens that stepping back and treating it like linear character progression rarely occurs to me
@@Joe_Brennan_ What if I said that one point in one of my parallel universes, the Doctor gets a family of her own for a bit
@@mattthesilent777RED could be interesting. Jodi’s Doctor loved referring to the Fam, but she rarely showed the time and development of bonding and helping her Fam develop their own stories which other Doctors seem to do flawlessly in modern who and near the end of Classic Who.
@@armoghetto What if said family included a normal human and an orphaned child with enhanced abilities caused by aliens meddling with her mind
Shoutout to Jenny from series 7 whose first onscreen kiss is not with her wife but with the male Doc 11
Awful stuff, made the decision to keep it out of this video because it doesn’t really fall under “romance”
@@Joe_Brennan_ Though it does fall under "S7 Eleven being quite unfortunate" umbrella briefly referenced this vid
and sadly people at the time complained louder when the married couple actually DID kiss in series 8
@@MaxAutoAttack yeah I was actually looking for more footage to display 11's unfortunateness and it slipped my mind. I chose not to mention it in the script but it definitely could've helped illustrate my point visually.
@@Joe_Brennan_ In fairness repressing all memory of The Crimson Horror is very sound
In general i just love how Twelve's five relationships cover such a wide spectrum:
Twelve/Clara as the soulmates who should just kiss already ffs
Twelve/River as the sexy old married couple
Twelve/Missy as flirty best mates who hate each others guts
Twelve/Bill as a sweet paternal friendship
and Twelve/Nardole as employer/employee (with sub/dom undertones.)
That's a really lovely point
Have to disagree with the Twelve and Clara thing tbh.
Platonic Soulmates work way better for their relationship.
It's so rare to see a proper male/female friendship in media, and I find theirs to be so strong.
Nardole is the dom, right?
Yes! So glad to see someone else who thinks Twelve/Clara were romantic soulmates (albeit pretty dysfunctional ones). I'm always seeing people say they were 'glad they were not romantic' and while I understand the subjectivity of fictional media and how everything is up to individual interpretation, I thought the Twelve/Clara storyline was incredibly romantic, myself. But, of course, YMMV.
Yes, thank you. It's so nice to see people agreing 12 and Clara was a romantic pairing, just as much if not more so than 11 and Clara.
My own personal interpration of the Doctor/Clara relationship is this;
11/Clara: Early, fun and flirtatious relationship. 11 is a bit reckless but knowing this is his last life he wants to have fun and doesn’t think to much about the inevitiable end.
12/Clara(series 8): Doctor, now being granted a whole new cycle of regenerations and having lived hundreds of years on Trenzolore wishes to make their relationship platonic because, while his feelings didn’t really change, he is more aware of their ending more then ever (See "If I hadn’t sent you away I would have buried you a long time ago"). This change in the Doctor allows Clara to explore more of her Earth life and fall for Danny
12/Clara(series 9): With Danny gone and both of them revealing they don't have a home/ boyfriend to return to Clara almost clings to the Doctor. This causes the Doctor to slowly lower his defenses and allow their relationship to become more and more romantic as it goes even though he knows it can never end well for either of them. Not just because of the life span difference but because they bring out both the best and worst in eachother yet he still can’t fully stop it because he doesn’t really want to.
It's just a great story of 2 people who love eachother but at the same time is very much toxic for eachother in a way
The romance behind Nine and Rose is so incredibly subtle and pure - that's what I love about Season 1. On top of that, Chris Eccleston is totally authentic when it comes to Rose and the Doctor and you ask him about his opinion. It kind of gives the whole experience something really special. Given that Nine was actually planned for more seasons, you do wonder how the chemistry of the characters could have unfolded. In later shows, you got the feeling that every new showrunner wanted to top this romance, which personally got on my nerves. I like River and I think the story behind it is cool. But it seems kinda forced as well. And Clara got on my nerves at some point... In retrospect, these successive romantic storylines rob the authenticity between Nine and Rose. I much prefer character dynamics like Donna and Bill Potts. After a repeated re-watch, I've grown to love Martha Jones as well. Especially because the Doctor doesn't return her feelings, which is fresh in comparison to following companions.
Girl in the fireplace was stupid on a romantic level. I'm sorry, but only a man could come up with that :D The stereotypical woman waiting for her hero. That's not romantic, that's silly and totally inappropriate in the context of the romance arc in Season 2 and unfair to Rose, who is not only left behind in this episode but portrayed as a poor and helpless sidekick. An episode pretty to look at as a standalone, but nothing more.
The Girl in the Fireplace is such a beloved episode for so many, but I'm honestly kind of glad I'm not alone in my personal feelings about it. I don't HATE the episode, but the more times I watch it, the less impressed I am. While I think it worked okay as an exploration of the Doctor's loneliness and the complexity of his lifestyle, and the general plot and storytelling made for some interesting Doctor Who, I don't find the love story very convincing and I think it's bizarre how Rose and Mickey are just sort of left out of the action in the story for no other reason than to make it all about the Doctor and Reinette. Also, while Ten was known to be impulsive at times and a bit of a romantic, I could never wrap my head around him just deciding to abandon both his companions and the Tardis with no known way of getting back for someone he just met and from his perspective, maybe spent a few hours with at the most. Some people will argue, "Oh, but he's a Time Lord and he would have figured something out." But the point is that he had no way of knowing that and he barely seemed concerned about the fact that he had his beloved ship and two friends, who RELIED on him to take care of them and get them home, waiting for him thousands of years in the future. And as much as all of Reinette's amazing qualities were talked about, they were never really shown to the audience, and she was reduced to little more than a damsel in distress who spent her entire life waiting for the Doctor.
Honestly, I can see why many people consider it this epic bittersweet romantic fantasy --- but it just isn't for me, I guess. I think romance in DW has been handled much better elsewhere.
I have three thoughts after watching this:
- I agree that, regardless of whether I think the Doctor SHOULD have lots of romantic relationships, I really did love Rose and River's romances. (Rose because they built up the chemistry and compatibility so gradually and convincingly; River because it felt more like how I felt a Doctor romance could naturally go if they had one - essentially equals, random and chaotic, not really into it but gradually the person just became too important a presence their heart(s).)
- I really dislike it in any show when the main characters are going from romance to romance. It starts to cheapen them all and feel boring, plus it feels like the easy way to insert drama rather than having something truly different and interesting. As you said, there are so many different types of relationships that are interesting, and they provide opportunities to bring out and explore/develop other aspects of The Doctor we haven't really seen in New Who. I honestly felt that giving Clara a Danny and how they used him end up making the series tiresome at times. Let's have romance in the show but let's not overeat.
- Finally, I rarely find I'm truly, deep-down convinced that the Doctor who was once 1-7 would really feel romantically for most of these young little humans. Those incarnations are not really portrayed as being romantically/sexually inclined at all and so, while I don't think that means every incarnation has to be aroace, it feels like romantic leanings would be rare and wouldn't necessarily look like traditional human romances if it does occur. (I don't read Clara x 12 as true romance, but I do think their platonic married couple know-each-other-too-well vibe suits the kind of equivalent relationships the Doctor is more likely to have.)
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I guess in the end, although I don't agree with your desire for a lot of romance, we would both be satisfied if they were more careful with how and when they write romance for the Doctor and feel there are good opportunities to explore different types of relationships for the Doctor and to write good romance between non-Doctor characters. (AmyRory good, not ClaraDanny...)
Thanks for the thoughtful video!
Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
I like to think doctors after 8 are open to romance because of 8s regeneration. 8s regeneration went wrong, so he had to absorb human dna. This is why 8 is half human and the capacity to have a romance in a very human way stuck with him.
Just a headcanon of mine.
The one thing im against doing us retroactively applying romance to classic Doctors. Like they did with Sarah Jane. Its possible Sarah Jane made it more romantic in her head during the decades but it still doesn't fit her relationship with 3 or 4 tbh.
yeah I think retroactively doing anything so major with other people's stories is something they should be very careful about
i love when video essays like this have a black-and-white phrased question with a nuanced answer that boils down to "yes and no." i think that it really makes sense that there isn't one straightforward answer to this question, because it really is all in the eye of the consumer
that being said, i love doctor who romance and hope to see it tackled at least a little bit in the 15th doctor's run. it would be great to see an openly gay actor play a character who is explicitly stated to be having an openly gay romance
@@logicallyanxiousI think it would be great too, although don't want to pigeonhole Ncuti into having his sexuality define his Doctor. If it happens, I'll be happy. If not, I won't be disappointed.
And thank you for the comment! It's nice to know that the almost clickbait-esque extreme of the title leading to a more subtle answer was a positive, rather than a negative
@@Joe_Brennan_ what i think would be great is that if there is a romance (which, if there isn't, i'll still be super happy and excited because i think he's going to do great) i'd like it to be the kind where sexuality isn't even brought up. with all of the male-presenting doctors and their romances with women, there was no point to saying "woah, a man and a woman are kissing, this is so unique and crazy!" it was simply two people who liked each other. i would want it to be same if there's a relationship between the doctor and a man
I've personally never been big on Doctor/Companion romances, much prefer either no romance or romance between companions. I did enjoy Amy's Choice, which called out some of the problematic aspects of the Doctors relationships
"The old man prefers the company of the young"
"Friends are people you stay in contact with, your friends never see you again"
When you got to the 12 and Clara section it almost made me cheer out loud! Finally a whotuber who understands that they have a romantic relationship! They are my favorite Doctor Who couple and frustrates me so much when people try to erase this aspect and call them father and daughter or just friends. Fun fact, Peter Capaldi himself called 12 and Clara a truly romantic relationship!
I feel like it's hard to fit their relationship into a single category given its complexity, but imo Twelve and Clara were each other's significant other in every way that really mattered. And honestly I'm not sure how you could watch The Magician's Apprentice where the Doctor plays "Pretty Woman" for Clara, then asks her, "When do I not see you?" and not interpret that as romantic.
Messy as 10s relationships were, it really worked. 11 definitely should have stayed asexual, got really weird with clara. 12 was like 10 but lept straight into the toxicity before going platonic.
11 was kind of forced into a romantic storyline by the River introduction that was probably intended for a future alongside Tennant
@@Joe_Brennan_ the river stuff wasn't too bad but he wasn't questioning the tightness of her skirt
As sad as Rose's story was, nothing hits me harder than Donna's ending
I'm ready for a complete break from Doctor related romances, if there needs to be a show romance for now I think it can be between companions
I just think having longer breaks between the romances makes them each feel more impactful, like after rose the doctor was still sad about her for 2 season which really makes the rewatch of their relationship hit harder
I cant wait to find out if doctor who has a romance problem!!!
I hope I answered the question!!!!
I’ve always thought that it worked for most fans when there was a good romance in the TARDIS that didn’t involve the Doctor, and it worked for less fans when it did. That would always be my preference because, while it’s fun to watch people fall and be in love, it just feels weird for a nearly ageless being to be in love with a 19 year old girl. The Doctor has so many more interesting avenues to explore than his romantic feelings for his companions
this is why doctor/master always wins!
I think the romances involving the doctor and companions work better when it's a new incarnation of the Doctor, because in many ways they're much younger. There are obviously still power dynamic issues, but new incarnations of the Doctor are still getting to know and understand themselves much like a young adult, which offsets that somewhat. They also tend to latch on to whoever's closest like they're afraid they'll lose themselves if they don't.
I disagree, I prefer that The Doctor and the companion are friends but I'm not gonna argue with you because you have the right to your own opinion.
It’s nice to be civil
I was never a fan of the Doctor having romantic realtionships with his Companions due to why would a 2,000+ year old alien fall in love with a20+ year old mortal human, but your logic here has kind of turned me around somewhat. Again, it needs to be done in a logical way and have some pertinence to the overall story, but it can work as long as it's not overdone or made super melodrammatic.
I always loved Clara's reltionship with 12. Yes, she and 11 were kind of flirty, but her relationship with 12 was beautiful and set up the tradegy of her death and its impact on 12 in Heaven Sent and then its impact on Clara in Hell Bent when the Doctor is sitting right in front of her but no longer remembers her. For all of Hell Bent's flaws those scenes in diner are heart breaking between 12 and Clara. She tries to hold back the tears when he says if he ever met her again he would recognize her immediately. That's true, love, pain and loss being displayed in those few seconds. Those two will be my forever couple in Doctor Who, I will ship them any day!
I really appreciate this take. It seems like most people either love or hate the romance in DW, but you take quite a nuanced and balanced approach to discussing it.
While I know the Rose/Doctor romance is divisive among fans, I've always really enjoyed it. Especially given where the Doctor was at emotionally at the time. The loss of his planet and people was still weighing heavily on him, and Rose was someone who came into his life at just the right time, brought out the best in him, and made him feel like he had somewhere to belong. The tragedy of their relationship was that the Doctor knew it couldn't last, but he still hung on to the illusion that it could for as long as possible, and that made it sting even more when they lost each other. His decision to be the strong one and let her go in the end, giving her a chance at a happy ending with the Metacrisis Doctor who could love her in a way that he simply couldn't, was heartbreaking. I loved this more human element of the Doctor's story that RTD introduced.
That said, do I think that romance is something Doctor Who needs or even should do all the time? No. Some of my favorite Doctor/companion relationships have been non-romantic --- such as Ten/Donna and Twelve/Bill. And I actually think the show could use more of those types of dynamics in the Modern era. But I'm not actively against romance either as long as it is well-written or tied to the characters' individual arcs in a meaningful way.
Another fantastic video essay Joe, absolutely loved it. It's wonderful to hear someone tackle this topic with such nuance - you have a real flair for concise analytical essays!
This is such a lovely comment and I really appreciate it
Instant subscribe. The two things I've always got to be sure of before listening to people talk about Doctor Who is that they're pro-kissing and pro-Clara Oswald!
So glad you're back to making videos!
So am I! Two videos in two weeks feels unheard of. Hopefully I’ll keep it up.
I fully read Clara/ 12 as just extremely close friends. I don't get a romantic chemistry between them, but I do fully see a strong platonic love. I also really love that it's not necessarily that healthy a relationship between them either. I think it is so unique and well done and I think making it a romance weakens that element personally
twelveclara has to be the most intimate and well executed romance in all of doctor who, especially because of how subtextual it is. the lengths they go to make sure the other is merely ALIVE, whether is ends in their own pain, is absolutely just soulmatism. i love my friends, and i would probably be in a torture chamber for a million years for them. but 4.5 billion years? that's "truly romantic" love at it's purest. (don't hate me, peter capaldi himself used that wording to describe their relationship! hence the quotes)
You get it
I love twelve and clara too but i really, really think that suggesting romantic love is more powerful than friendship could ever be is a detrimental sentiment. I believe the doctor would stay in a torture chamber for billions of years for donna, but that doesn’t make them inherently romantic. once again i’m so on board with your view of clara and twelve but i don’t think that’s proof that the doctor would do more for romance than for friendship-or that anyone would.
@@thatpeskyrat honestly, the reasoning i wrote in the comment isnt even the main reason i find them the best and most i herently romantic ship between the docfor and a companion. it was just the one i thought people would get quicker than me going into my extreme twelveclara scene analysis (which i do often) 😭
I'm of the opinion that if 2 actors have obvious romantic chemistry it makes no sense to force the characters to be platonic. Rose and the Doctor needed to be romantic, there was just so much chemistry between the actors. (Side note- rose, doctor and captain jack were a polyamorous triple I will fight people on this)
"im like the bbc, only impartial" is prolly your best joke. big fan
and if that content you hope will find an audience doesnt include mr. hunt i will be PISSED (privately to myself and not bother anyone about it)
Mr Hunt is always on my list of priorities
what I probably like the most in 12th and Clara's relationship is that it is non-sexual and non-romantic although this is very obviously love. if you want you can absolutely read sexual attraction and romance into it - like you said, it's ambiguous. But it's just fine without these undertones, it's already very rich and complex and these uncrossed lines and steps not taken only add to this complexity
i was about to write a very angry comment///// and then you got to your point lmao... YES GIVE ME ALL THE SMOOCHING !!! ALL THE ROMANCE!!!!!
I made sure to make my point very early on for this very reason
It makes sense for anyone to fall in love if (a) the person whisks you away from your responsibilities and (b) can promise you... literally anything.
"with smith being young and capaldi being sexy" you understand everything. i cheered
I'm so aro/ace that I see the doctor and madame de pompadour kiss and I'm like wow what good friends xD don't even occur to me that it was a romantic relationship until i watch this video 🙃
I see romance as being a natural part of the Doctor's experiences when one considers their life. Nine was the last of his kind when he met Rose. Of course he'd be more eager to grab onto someone and make her a confidant compared to his earlier selves. If One to War wanted someone who could get them, they could go back to Gallifrey, Nine onwards can't. If there ever was a time to downplay romance in the new show, Series 10 would have been it.
My fav is Doctor/Clara. I like how their dynamic changed each series. Honeymoon in Series 7, bickering married couple in Series 8 and cool old couple living out of their VW camper van in Series 9 who are perfectly in sync. Their romance and how it evolved felt like a natural part of their character arcs. I like Doctor/Rose for the same reason but I don't really like Series 2 so that kind of spoils it for me.
My least fav I would think is probably Doctor/River. It had to share time with Amy/Rory, the Doctor's relationships with the Ponds and the Silence arc. It never had the time to breathe and show these two together during Eleven's tenure or develop River outside of it (compare to the development Rose and Clara got). And while I love the idea of the Doctor meeting someone out of order, I don't think it worked for romance. Their wedding for example feels to me like the Doctor doing a fake wedding so River will clean up and go to bed given the differing points in their timeline, compared to Rose and Nine's kiss feeling like a natural end to the journey they've been on throughout Series 1. I got that River loved Eleven, but I was never sold that Eleven loved River. Though after "The Husbands" voiced that, I do have the theory that Eleven was just keeping the timeline intact and it's only in those 24 years that Twelve began to love her.
Where will Fifteen fit? I don't know. But knowing RTD, they'll be some romance vibes. I think I'd like Fifteen and Ruby to start as flirty best friends at first but, depending on how long either stays, they miss their chance. We had a tease of that with Sarah and Ten but I think that's an approach they could explore more.
I thinked the same about River since 2013/2014, Clara really looked more the Doctor's wife than her and really more a love interest. And the wedding with River really looked forced but in a way of the 11th Doctor doing the right thing. For 12th and River, i see he got more nostagia about her, but i don't know if love feelings; maybe as you said he started to love her on those 24 years (due the photography on series 10)
@@DalekRaptor Yes I fully agree. It always shocks me that Alex and Matt have such good chemistry yet River and Eleven's interactions are so forced. And I know it's not a writing issue since, as you said, Clara naturally feels like the Doctor's love interest and borderline wife.
And yes, perhaps it was just nostalgia. After all he'd just lost his beloved Clara and learnt that you have to let go of things.
i think it's fine having romance in doctor who, but there also has to be times when he could not give a single shit about it. Tom Baker's Doctor was hilarious in that aspect. "I'm sure your pretty." lmao
Love your videos Joe, keep up the great work :)
Thank you very much! I’ll try my best
Personally, I prefer the official Classic approach, even as I acknowledge 4/Romana [especially No. 2] was likely romantic just because pacifist ace male leads outside of early age TV are just incredibly rare.
That said, if we're going to assassinate another Chaste Hero officially for yet another Sexualized Person, at least keep it to Time Lords...ergo the best are...
1. Doctor x Husband/Wife Time Lord that begat Susan's parents...just because Susan came of it. [why the writers never get around to addressing this one I just don't get!]
2. Doctor x Romana
3. Doctor x Mistress/Master
4. Doctor x River Song
And the only acceptable human pairing is Doctor x Elizabeth I, just because of the audacity!
Everything else is only meant to be stomached.
You know the old saying "No sex please, we're Timelords!"
Nicely balanced analysis.
For me its not that I object to the The Doctor feeling love but that its always boxed into being romance (and yes I do agree that its been quite oversaturated in NuWho). One of the greatest aspects of the Classic series was that (although it was unspoken) there was a sense that the Doctor and his companions did 'love' each other but in a platonic way - yet the connection was so strong they would do anything for one another, even sacrificing themselves to save a life (cough cough Five). I absolutely agree that there needs to be a deep feeling between them in order to create impact when they die/leave etc but the lovey dovey, smooching aspect is not really my bag. I wasn't fond of the Rose/Doctor coupling but it made sense developmental so I could live with it but I would have preferred if that was the oddity rather than the start of more of the same. I will say that my exception to the rule is the Doctor and River, the wibbly wobbly timey wimey story and chemistry between them was top notch, its really the only truly romantic pairing I like with the Doctor.
Since Capaldi's era the romance has toned down a lot. I'm kinda glad as although I love the Tennant era it was a bit difficult to overlook the constant romance.
This new RTD era looks like he's focused on friendship/companionship more than romance.
It’s great to hear somebody voice a completely different opinion from mine in such a clever way. I personally just don’t like romance plots in gerneral, but after this I’ll agree they have the potential to enhance a story (even in Doctor Who) plus I thought the romance between Charlie and the 8th doctor was handled quite well.
You’re absolutely right about the emotions and vulnerability from romance adds more depth and edge to the storylines and subsequently make it more engaging…I also believe there’s a lot to be said about drawing a new audience in with a potential romance plot it works like a charm.
I thought I hated romance storylines (and stories in general) but what I recently found out is that I just hate badly written ones, of course ksks also if it's gay I'm already 50% on board, so it doesn't need much more work ksks my faves are rose and Tennant, I liked river song and the doctor sometimes and I haven't seen Yaz and the doctor so I don't know but that image of Yaz carrying 13th got me interested, like I said before, I'm easy that way ksks
That’s so real. Unfortunately there’s not a huge amount more to Yaz and the Doctor than I showed in this video, but by the sounds of it, it might be enough for you.
Brilliant vid dude, perfect thing to watch with a sunday roast
Thank you so much mate, appreciate though you’ve made me want a Sunday roast to enjoy while I reply to comments
Great presentation. Because I don't follow Doctor Who, it is difficult to comment on the ins and outs of things... yes that came out wrong but I'm not sure if there's another way to say it.. Having different actors play 'different' Doctors with different personalities keeps the these stories available with the ability to stay fresh. But if this was one actor and one 'character' it would be very different circumstances. It would be like Riker from Star Trek who had a fling on every second planet, when someone is so liberal with relationships, it's difficult to take them seriously when they are supposed to be actually serious about someone. I know enough to know the Doctor is very different to Riker but I took things to the extreme to make my point. Like I said last time, great to see you back making content.
I have never read Clara and 12s dynamic as romantic. Interesting
Worth keeping the reading in mind next time you watch it, could see it in a new light
"Clara, I'm not your boyfriend"
"I never thought you were"
"I never said it was your mistake"
Plus in the Caretaker, part of the reason he treats Danny so poorly is that he liked the idea that Clara was in love with the teacher with the bow tie (who bore a striking resemblance to 11) and was disappointed that it was someone else. Kind of a weird, indirect unrequited love but with the context of her time with 11 and that line in Deep Breath, there definitely is a romantic angle that the show explores in different ways.
Yes. Well from the Doctor's side at least. if it's the companions, like Amy and Rory, I'm okay with it. You can't really deny... that in distant future... there will be another "River Song" as in... a future lover that dear closed to the Doctor...
Also, again, I'm writing the comment before watching your video, gonna watch it after work, heheh
Oooo two doctor who videos in 2 weeks! We are eating!!!
We’re in a new era!
Like, who WOULDN'T fall in love with Doctor Who? (Someone's gonna say Donna. She's a better person than me, but still.)
I think Donna was more into the Doctor than she let on, but she'd never admit it out loud, especially to him!
I love the big Rian Johnson in the back.
He's been my companion for all these years
@@Joe_Brennan_ The Last Jedi >>>>
Upon listening to Big Finish’s Diary of River Song series, I was really shocked by how well the romance angle works for the Classic Doctors, which has helped convince me that it’s not just some unwelcome addition from the new series. Like I never expected the 6th doctor of all people to fall head over heels in love with River, but being such a romantic felt so right for his character.
I also like how the series still acknowledges that certain Doctors don’t entirely fit that mould, like 7 being way too paranoid and controlling; or 5 still abiding by the ole ‘no hanky panky’ rules from the 80’s, which made for some interesting drama in of itself.
I’m a soft touch for a good romantic subplot but I do think they should maybe cool it down a little. It sort of gives diminishing returns after awhile if there’s always someone who goes moon eyed over the doctor without enough of a break between them.
I love it when there are one off romantic subplots with historical figures, those are pretty fun
So, old fan coming back for the mtg crossover and the ncuti gawa seasons. What story arcs do I need to catch up on? The end of time, and?
Can’t believe he didn’t mention Two and Jamie smh
They were TOTALLY 'Space Married', IMO
im still waiting for an anime adaptation of doctor who where he has a harem, i would also like to see a version of the doctor that gave up saving the universe just to pick up woman
7:40 that clip from the season 3 finale is hilarious.
The way the master puts his hands on his head and then David Tennant just glides towards him.
I don't think it has enough romance. An underrated romance in Doctor Who is the one in Orphan 55 between Ryan and Bella, I think it's very brief but rather sweet!
You're right actually, it's always nice when companions have a spark with someone from a standalone episode. Even if it does sometimes lead to... Adam.
Your "I'm like the BBC, except impartial" made me LOL!
Also, as someone who always hated Rose (my least fave companion of the entire show's history...and I'm including the entire Classic series in that) and loved Martha (actually my fave companion), I definitely agree that was where the whole romance side of things went terribly wrong.
I personally thought the Doctor was INCREDIBLY out of character during S3 in the way he treated Martha. I mean, yes, he supposedly wasn't attracted to her (which I personally disagree with, but YMMV), but there were plenty of other companions in his life that were platonic that he treated with far more respect. And I'm still pretty bitter about it, TBH. Martha deserved better. 😡
I also love Martha (she has always been my favourite) but I also love Rose - I don't really believe that we must pit these characters against each other, since that is exactly what the doctor did in season 3.
I kind of views s3 as an anti love story. A story about Martha realising that the doctor just won't treat her like she deserves and she must leave for her own sake. The way I read it, it's a metaphor for an unhealthy situationship of sorts - the doctor wants to go on one more "trip" with Martha, but without making her his "companion". And I think that is very in character for men who have just lost someone they love
@@initiatinreallife I'm honestly not trying to pit Rose and Martha against one another, I just don't like Rose at all -- whether its in relation to any other character or not.
I totally get that some people do pit them against one another (especially people who started with the modern series and never watched the Classic Series -- which is not me, as I've been watching the show since the 80s), especially because one came after the other, but I just happen to love one and hate the other, despite the order they were in the Doctor's life. It's just coincidence.
As for the way the Doctor behaves in S3, it's difficult for me, because it still feels OOC. I mean, I see what you're saying, but I personally never got the impression he loved Rose as much as she loved him and so his behavior doesn't track for me (especially considering I'd seen him lose LOADS of other people -- including his own grand-daughter -- and never held that loss against the following companion).
I mean, he definitely missed Rose, I'm sure, but it never seemed that deep to me. In fact, when I was first watching S3 and Ten said to Martha that he and Rose 'were together', I remember thinking I'd missed an episode or something, because I personally never clocked them (Rose/Doctor) as a romantic pairing.
Yes, I thought Rose had a teenage crush on the Doctor and the Doctor was fond of Rose back (like a BFF), but it didn't feel like romantic love to me.
IDK, that could've just been from growing up on Classic Who where similar interactions between the Doctor and companions were always being classified as platonic (holding hands, in each other's personal space, etc), but suddenly that was meant to be some grand romance now instead? I just didn't buy it. But, obviously, YMMV.
@NicoleMazza The reason I said that we shouldn't pit them against each other was that you mentioned hating Rose while praising Martha. I don't see why you would have to mention Rose, to say that Martha is a great character. It seemed to me like you were putting them as alternatives to each other.
If you don't see that Rose and the doctor were together, you're just reading the show differently than most people - and I think you're reading it differently that RTD intended. Which is fine, art is defined by how it can be interpreted differently. But the doctor stating that they were together is done to get rid of any ambiguity that season 2 still had, so that his behaviour in season 3 would make sense.
If you read Rose as having a teenage crush, that is also fine, but do keep in mind that she is 20 in season 2. She is not a teenager and doesn't behave like one imho. RTD clearly didn't intend Rose and the Doctor to be platonic, neither in season 1 nor in season 2. And I think to get what season 3 is trying to do, at least, we must accept at face value that the doctor loved Rose and can't get over her. That makes a lot of his behaviour far more understandable and Martha's character journey more amicable because she grows above him. She is not like him, who can't get over his past love. That's where she surpasses him.
To be fair, between the Twelfth Doctor under Moffat and the Thirteenth Doctor under Chibnall, they definitely dialed back the on-screen kissing, at least involving the Doctor.
Yes, there was a problem until 13 then again there was Thasmin but that was more of a last second sort of thing, other than that 13 was relatively straight forward aswell as the later half of 10, series 4 specifically since Donna is the only main companion of The Doctor that didn't have a romantic interest in him at the time until 11 came along with the whole River thing which really sucked.
Very interesting video! I tend to be more on the side of wanting less romance (despite being a hopeless romantic in some ways LOL), but I don't strongly object to any of the major examples, it's just some stuff could've been done better in execution. It does usually add something at least. I think what we really need is another Doctor/Nardole. /j
If you asked me to pick a fave... younger me would probably call me mad but I think it might be Twelve/Clara? I haven't watched Series 8 in years and while it kind of threw me off the show cuz I was in my anti-Moffat phase, I do remember genuinely finding their dynamic really interesting there. I rewatched some stuff in the lead up to the 60th, mostly RTD to be ready to compare to his new era but I also took the chance to watch parts of Series 9 because I skipped it (again, aformentioned anti-Moffat phase). And well, to my surprise, I actually found myself being reminded of how much I like them together again. I expected to hate Hell Bent after hearing how infamous it was, but then despite a few (admittedly major) issues I actually liked it quite a bit? I guess as I've aged I've learned to embrace my love of tragic doomed romances, especially in a relationship where Twelve and Clara compliment each other so well but also bring out the worst in each other. I can see why it's too much for some people, especially in Series 8 when their characterisation could get pretty dark, but I do appreciate it more with age now I guess. I don't even know if I see it as romantic, it could be but I could easily being its own weird unique thing, like a queerplatonic dynamic or something.
I'm saying this without having seen the full video yet but: 100% disagree. Not in a "you're wrong" way, just in a "I don't agree with you on this matter" way. I will forever see The Doctor being romantically involved as a 54 year old man with a toddler and I wholeheartedly reject it.
okay now that segway joke was next level and the kind of stuff i watch your videos for besides the based opinions. Also, completely unrelated but i think this is pretty funny, my mum absolutely despises peter capaldi's doctor, she just can't stand him, she always has to look away, look at someone else, but we're nearly up to heaven sent so she's going to have to face her fears.
Editing these videos is so arduous so it’s nice to know that some people pay attention to the visual jokes I put in
I'm one of those old enough to remember JNT's policy of "no hanky panky in the TARDIS".
I wonder what he’d make of all this
5:24 great line! made me laugh :) i like your videos
I’m very glad! Thank you
WOOHOOOOO JBOI IS HERE!!!!
Here to stay!
Eleven doctor was simultaneously asexual coded, and contastly naked under people's dresses.
eleven doctor? yes brain, eleven doctor.
He has LAYERS. By that I mean that he often wears no layers at all.
Personally I don't think the Doctor experiences romantic attraction in the conventional sense, at least not towards humans. My interpretation is that he did love Rose but in a complicated way that we mere mortals can't comprehend, but leans more towards platonic than romantic. That doesn't make Doomsday any less devastating for me, it's a different kind of love but just as real as Rose's more romantic love for him.
As for River, their marriage was originally for plot reasons IIRC so I think the Doctor just went along with that because he had to, before eventually growing to love River, but again in a complicated Time Lord way.
To me it just feels strange to neatly label the Doctor's relationships as either platonic or romantic, as I feel the line is somewhat blurred for humans, let alone for a millennia-old alien. But as you say, it's all just vibes, and this was a great and balanced video!
I must say I was very anti Doctor Romance- but you explained how and why it works so very well! Thank you!
Romance isn’t relatable to Doctor Who fans lol
I have cherished Dr Who since I first saw it as a kid. The only thing I never liked about the old Dr Who series was its sterile vibe. This was corrected with 10 and Rose (and others) and 11 and 12 with Clara. I shall always remember a video short with Rose and 10’s final scene on the beach with a man dressed in historical costume playing a providential violin piece in the background giving the occasion an Old-World Mythical air of cultural folklore and legend. No such cultural treasure would ever have come out of the sterile old series. But if a sterile vibe was not bad enough, the potential crucible of folklore and legend has been disastrously sacrificed on the altar of wokeness via LGBTQ and race-swapping.
There might be some kissing in both my main universe and the Chameleon Universe, I just always try to give an actual reason for it happening. I can actually say that two incarnations of the Doctor in the Chameleon Universe have better writing when it comes to sexual orientation than Jodie Whittaker got, look at her Doctor and Yaz, they failed miserably, not just because they ain't canon
Though I understand your points, I do disagree with you. In my opinion, the Doctor should not feel romantic attraction.
Due to this trait the Doctor has become a very relatable figure to AroAce (aromantic and/or asexual) people like myself. I think this show - better than any other piece of media - can show how close, loving and intimate platonic relationships can be. I agree that the Doctor and Clara for instance are deeply in love with one another, but on a purely platonic level. And I think that’s beautiful and terribly under-represented in media.
Romantic relationships can still play a role in the companions. Rory and Amy are a fantastic example, but I think Bill and Heather are my favourite romantic plot line; their love was the subtle series arc of series 10 with it culminating in Heather’s love for Bill saving both her and the Doctor.
So, I agree that romance is and should stay an essential part of Doctor Who, but don’t believe the Doctor themselves should experience such attraction.
This is a lovely point and I’m glad you’ve made it. Again, it’s hard to argue one way or another when it comes down almost entirely to preference.
Haha got me at the beginning, but i completely agree. The only reason people dont like romance on screen is because its done poorly in so many shows. If dome right though it makes a show mich better
I agree with your perspective on this really, I used to be of the opinion that Doctor/companion romance was just bad, full stop. I think a large part of this was down to me not liking Ten/Rose as a pairing (and to be honest, I still don't, they can be really insufferable at points and results in them being quite unlikable at times), but then again as you mentioned there's clear romantic subtext in Twelve and Clara's interactions, and they're a GOATED pairing, so clearly I can like a Doctor/companion romance, it just depends on the circumstances.
And the fact that there's been such a variety in terms of what kind of romantic relationships we've seen over the years definitely helps in that regard. Rose's relationship with Ten was like a high school crush; Twelve's relationship with Clara was a toxic co-dependent hot mess; River and the Doctor were like an old married couple (with all three of her Doctors); and Thirteen and Yaz were...well, they existed. So yeah, there's no real black-and-white approach to romance in this show, it can be good or bad, it just depends on how it's written
I don’t like it when they insist on putting the Doctor into a romance because it was nice to have just one heroic lead character on the asexual/aromantic spectrum (who wasn’t cold/uncaring/totally lacking in empathy*). Multiple new and classic writers and Doctors have endorsed that take on the character explicitly over the years, it was a popular default fan read for ages, and something is genuinely lost when writers abandon it. Frankly I’m surprised you didn’t mention it at all, especially since you mention the importance of queer representation as an argument /for/ more romance!
(Also the serial nature of the program does make the romance with 19 year old companions thing uncomfortable IMO. Because once you start down that road it starts to be weird that the Doctor keeps traveling with a string of such young women, when obviously in the real world it’s a practical choice to balance the cast!)
I’ll freely admit to being inconsistent on both these points sometimes - I enjoy aspects of Eight/Charley’s dynamic and some of the Nine/Rose and Doctor/River Song stories, too.
*incidentally also why autistic/neurodivergent doctor interpretations are so appealing - he’s a character who rejects many of the negative/misguided tropes and still invites these readings.
choosing to believe you put 12/river on the screen just for me
I think ur wright mate
No me
@@Joe_Brennan_ liar
I missed both Clara and no a 11 as a couple .They were like a married couple with no 11 being behaving like an immature kid and Clara being the boss. Matt should have done anotger series with Clara .No12 and River Song could had done more eposides travelling together. BALDLY missed oppportunities .
Whats wrong with the doctor having a bit of romance? I here people criticising the fact that tennent was too human. Too human! The humanity of a character is what makes them great.
They should go all in on the Doctor/Master romance!! It is time. It would be a mess, but it could be done and they can bring in memory loss to restore canon as many times as they want I don't care! They always have the craziest chemistry and it's a very complicated relationship already. Surprising that Missy/12th were not mentioned, I loooooooove their kiss.
This could work for the new Doctor especially, since I feel like the new companion (for now) looks very similar to Rose for it to not be weird to have a romantic arc between her and the Doctor
This is my favorite ship. They break my heart and I love every second of it! haha. I had so much hope for 12/Missy and I do hope someone will be willing to at least experiment with their relationship like that again. I kind of see them as like, very star-crossed soulmates? Except that it's largely because of their own doings. I don't know but I'm obsessed. I've been thinking of doing a fanfic version.
Agreed that the new companion looks like Rose and I'm thinking that maybe it will be a matter of making us think we're getting Rose again only to subvert our expectations somehow. I don't see RTD doing the same thing again.
Hey mate great video as usual, I’ve always had a soft spot for the Doctors daughter too 😍😍
You. Goober. I never even mentioned that.
Honestly, I am a bit tired of the romance. I feel it would be good to have asexual Doctor for some time. I liked the resolution of most romances, the heartbreak of Rose (even though that's the one I dislike the most, I just think Rose worked better with Ecclestion, and their sexual tension wasn't that explicit), but then I didn't like how Martha was just another girl in love with the Doctor (even though I admit it did gave them different chemistry). I loved 10 and Donna the most, because of the buddy movie vibe they had. Same with 12 with Nardole and Bill. I think I'd like people to be mates for a bit. We just had a very long running River storyarc and the headcanon only Thasmin arc, that was there or wasn't there, but it was something people talked about. Now I want just mates. Chill down with romanticizing Doctor. Not closing this door shut of course. There can be a bit of romance later.
Is not Eleventh Doctor the asexual Doctor?
When S1 aired it made more sense for it to have romance since it was introducing itself to a new audience but since then we've seen the Doctor age more than 1000 years in show Time. Can't also ignore how weird and kinda creepy it would be for a millenary alien to smooch and groom a 19 year old chav or anyone younger than 500 years or something. His mindset and maturity are literally centuries beyond her, it's like if a 50 year old dated a 14 year old or something.
I don’t think you can make such a strict parallel to a problematic real world situation when 2000 year old aliens aren’t a thing we have to consider irl
@@Joe_Brennan_ im not being strict just saying make the dude date an alien closer his age when they obviously exist in Universe. You can have romance and it being written better otherwise makes the Doctor seems like a lameo who goes for young girls.
@NTNG13 But like - he isn't real. And as someone who was 19 not too long ago and loved Nine and Rose then and now (and unfortunately has experiences with creepy men): A fictional relationship that is supposed to feel like falling in love with the wonders of the universe didn't come off as creepy to me. It's not something creepy men could use to justify their actions. More importantly, it's from Rose's point if views.
River, who is actually the doctor's age, was far more creepy to me since he actually held her as a child, and also, her whole life revolved around his.
If you don't like the pair, that's fine - you be comfortable or uncomfortable with whatever you like. But I really is a matter of personal taste and nothing else.