A tip I heard for rapidly chilling your pH samples to room temp: keep two sturdy shot glasses in the freezer. Pour your sample into the first, stir, pour it into the second, and stir. The thermal mass of the cold shot glasses should bring the small sample to room temp very quickly.
also small sample in a metal cup, stir the sample with the cup under tap water.. this way I get very stable temperatures for all my readings across batches
My experience with pH meters (which is quite extensive) leads me to think that your average home brewer will not have the equipment or knowledge to accurately measure beer pH, and that simply following a reliable recipe and not worrying about the pH is the sensible route to take.
The temperature effect on pH measurement is something I thought about in the past but never really knew what was the right thing to do. Thank you John and Brülosophy for clarifying that 👍
Do you have an episode where you do a water adjustment taste test? E.G. chemically adjusted water vs tap water with just chlorine removed (sat for 24hrs?). I currently don’t adjust water chemistry it would be fascinating if testers can distinguish between 2 types of beer E.G. a stout and also an IPA both requiring different water profiles.
I was wondering why my Porter at a higher mash ph came out great, now I see why. Thanks for this conversation. I saved the scale for Mash ph based on the range of colors/styles.
I do brewfather calculations and they are always off by about 0.3 ph (Using an Apera ph meter at room temp). So i dial in 5.2 in brewfather and it will be around 5.5 every single time. I generally add another ml of lactic acid and bring it down into the 5.4's and it is all good. Sparge ph i also bring down to 5.4 before doing that which brewfathers calculations are pretty close on. The other thing is treating your water if you have chloramines, i had them in a recent beer and had to tip it. Water filter cartridge obviously was no longer filtering it, so campden in both mash and sparge water is a great insurance.
A lot of this information is in Graham Wheeler's book dated 1993 that I have in my collection which is what I use as a reference. Good to see it is still relevant.
Also pH probes are rarely manufactured to be able to withstand much higher temperatures than room temp. If you stick it directly into the mash you're asking for it!
Thanks for all the information. Happy that I already lowered all my samples to room temperature before measuring PH. I will play around with different PH in different Beer styles. And it is really time for me to read the water book after finishing the yeast book.
Ciekawe. Piłem na PTP i wersja z kasztanami wydawała mi się o wiele bardziej ułożona niż mango. Co nie zmienia faktu, że mango ciekawsze wrażenia daje i ten zestaw też zamówiłem. (Choć chyba wolałbym szkło na nóżce)
I have a Ph question, how often should you adjust the Ph during the brewing process? I really could have used this video sooner! I attempted water control for the first time and followed a Brewfather recipe. I put in lactic acid and checked the temperature when my 60 minute mash was done and saw it was 4.8 (as explained in this video!) I panicked and added baking soda to balance it out. After the boil and cooled down, it was down to 5.1, so i added a little more baking soda again before i pitched the yeast. All that to say, I feel like I messed up. But, I'm curious about my original question, when should I adjust for Ph and should I be continuing to adjust during the brew process. Thank you!!
Great video. I really appreciate interspersing Martin's insights during John's presentation. It helped me grasp the important kernels in there. I plan to pay more attention to this in the future! One question, got any recommendations on a budget -friendly pH meter?
Great Video! PH is by far the most underrated factor in Homebrewing. Good to see you devoting an episode to it. That said, I think you made an important point when discussing the experiments that actually the thing that people were tasting was the difference in the final beer ph. Really this is the number to focus on. Mash PH, isn’t nearly as important.
I haven’t been happy with my existing pH meter, so in research of a new one I found that most handheld pH meters homebrewers would buy have ATC, but only up to around 120ºF, which is not adequate for our mash temps. I’m not certain if the ATC on lab grade equipment would be more accurate at higher temps, but some do specifically have higher temp ratings. I’ll have to do some comparisons of the mash pH at temp vs room temp and see if my fancy new meter is consistent (and worth the expense). This was an interesting video, thanks!
Keep in mind that ATC is to keep the meter calibrated. Remember that you are looking for a (near) room temperature pH of 5.2-5.6, and at mash temp you would be looking for a different range, approx 4.9-5.3. Maybe I don't say it in this video, but measuring at high temp is stressful on you meter and shortens it's working life.
Is there a list with the preferred pH levels for different beer styles? I've been googling but I can't find much more than: dark beers pH around 5.6, light beers around 5.2. Seems like a good recommendation, however, if there is a more specific overview of pH levels in beer, that would be way better.
Thanks for making all these in depth videos! One question I still have is: once I've taken a proper ph measurement, how do I calculate how much lactic acid to add to get to my target ph. people always seem to gloss over this detail and just add1-3 ml without explaining how they decided to add that much, but is there a more precise/rigorous way to determine how much to add?
Add the quantity of acid your brewing software recommends to bring you to your targeted pH. Measure the pH after 20 mins. Take notes. If necessary, adjust the acid addition on subsequent batches to bring you to your target. If still out, rinse and repeat. Your measured pH is a point of reference for future batches and to refine that acid addition in subsequent brews. By the time you’re 20 mins into the mash, the majority of conversion has already taken place, rendering on-the-fly adjustments ineffective; It’s for future you
I imagine maintaining an accurate digital pH probe is a pain at home based on my experience in the lab. Has anyone found issues with accuracy with a digital pH meter? I had a look at a few that were available online and all the cheap ones appear to be pretty dodgy based on the reviews until the prices increase.
I thought at 77 degrees target is 5.4 -5.8 At mash temp target is 5.2-5.6 I calibrate at 77, target 5.4 for sparge water at 77 and acidify. then later if my mash reads 5.2 to 5.3 I let it go as correct. Am I doing something wrong in ph adjustment and target?
Adjusting sparge water ph below 6 was the biggest improvement to my home brew so it’s frustrating to see 12:34 that says water ph is not important for mash without also saying it is essential for sparge
Acidifying sparge water below six works, but probably not for the reason you think it is; that's the point I'm trying to make. You should be acidifying in order to neutralize the alkalinity, not to move the pH X amount. It often amounts to the same thing but it's treating the symptom vs. the cause if you get what I mean.
@JohnPalmer5367 Hi John, following on from your above reply: If sparging with RO water, there’s no benefit to acidifying the sparge water, assuming I’m happy with my pre-boil pH, which this acid addition to the sparge water would only serve to lower. Have I understood that correctly? Along the same lines, using RO water, would one expect to discern any perceptible differences from adding all brewing salts to the mash water, vs splitting the salts proportionately between the mash and sparge (still finishing with identical water profiles), assuming identical pH values for both mashes? If not perceptible sensory differences, anything else we might expect to be able to measure or observe? Extraction potential? Differing wort composition or fermentability as a result of certain enzymes favoured? This really is fascinating stuff, I’m going to have to buy your water book. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer, if you can
If you don't measure mash PH until about 15 to 20 minutes into the mash and a correction is needed at the time of that measurement - how much affect is that correction going to have knowing that conversion is nearly complete at that time?
Ehhh, it's close enough. At 20 minutes you could expect to the mash to be a little lower than at 5 minutes, but maybe by .05? You want to be in the ballpark, not necessarily on home plate. It depends on what you are mashing, your water, etc., but nominally you can expect the pH to drop by about 0.2 pH during the hour, i.e., 5.3 to 5.1 for example. But, it may only drop by 0.1 during that time. Depends on the brew.
Mash pH is such a tough one to nail down though. It really requires making the same recipe multiple times to get it dialed in by trial and error because by the time you can get your mash pH reading, the mash is mostly done thanks to the super quick conversion speed of today's malts. Mostly I just take note of it for *next time* and adjust accordingly.
All depends how you see this. If receipe says 5.35 and you trying to hit that exactly then yeah it’s really hard. For me keeping in the range is more important than chasing single number.
The way I see it, unless you are going for consistency and max efficiency, it's not especially relevant for a homebrewer to manage pH as fastidiously as commercial breweries, but what do I know!
Im confused?!? At 15.30 he says that 6.1 at mash temperature translates to 5.8-5.9 at room temperature? But isnt it the other way round? That 6.1 at mash translates to 6.3-6.4 at room?!?
The other thing is if you look at the clip where it shows the 6.1, the pH meter is also showing 73F... so that whole part of the conversation is moot to begin with.
No, you want your mash pH to be 5.2-5.6 AT ROOM Temp. Don't measure your mash pH hot because it shortens your pH meter life. (If you ARE measuring at mash temp, you would be looking for ~4.9-5.3)
I think as far as John Palmer goes he makes home brewing to confusing for my simple country ways. I’ve been brewing for years and make pretty good beer without getting to deep
A tip I heard for rapidly chilling your pH samples to room temp: keep two sturdy shot glasses in the freezer. Pour your sample into the first, stir, pour it into the second, and stir. The thermal mass of the cold shot glasses should bring the small sample to room temp very quickly.
also small sample in a metal cup, stir the sample with the cup under tap water.. this way I get very stable temperatures for all my readings across batches
Test tubes in ice water.
@@hugojeller this is what i do too
@@patrickglaser1560test tube's un sous vide bath at 20C
@@hugojelleryep stainless bar shaker cup in a little ice water bath works great too.
More like this please. Very helpful and informative.
Fun video. I love that Palmer very politely called all homebrewers idiots for just shoving the ph meter in the mash.
hey.. that's me
My experience with pH meters (which is quite extensive) leads me to think that your average home brewer will not have the equipment or knowledge to accurately measure beer pH, and that simply following a reliable recipe and not worrying about the pH is the sensible route to take.
The temperature effect on pH measurement is something I thought about in the past but never really knew what was the right thing to do. Thank you John and Brülosophy for clarifying that 👍
Do you have an episode where you do a water adjustment taste test?
E.G. chemically adjusted water vs tap water with just chlorine removed (sat for 24hrs?).
I currently don’t adjust water chemistry it would be fascinating if testers can distinguish between 2 types of beer E.G. a stout and also an IPA both requiring different water profiles.
Awsome video. Such good information and very well explained.
I was wondering why my Porter at a higher mash ph came out great, now I see why. Thanks for this conversation. I saved the scale for Mash ph based on the range of colors/styles.
I do brewfather calculations and they are always off by about 0.3 ph (Using an Apera ph meter at room temp). So i dial in 5.2 in brewfather and it will be around 5.5 every single time. I generally add another ml of lactic acid and bring it down into the 5.4's and it is all good. Sparge ph i also bring down to 5.4 before doing that which brewfathers calculations are pretty close on.
The other thing is treating your water if you have chloramines, i had them in a recent beer and had to tip it. Water filter cartridge obviously was no longer filtering it, so campden in both mash and sparge water is a great insurance.
A lot of this information is in Graham Wheeler's book dated 1993 that I have in my collection which is what I use as a reference. Good to see it is still relevant.
Also pH probes are rarely manufactured to be able to withstand much higher temperatures than room temp. If you stick it directly into the mash you're asking for it!
Thanks for all the information. Happy that I already lowered all my samples to room temperature before measuring PH. I will play around with different PH in different Beer styles. And it is really time for me to read the water book after finishing the yeast book.
Good luck with that!
Ciekawe. Piłem na PTP i wersja z kasztanami wydawała mi się o wiele bardziej ułożona niż mango. Co nie zmienia faktu, że mango ciekawsze wrażenia daje i ten zestaw też zamówiłem. (Choć chyba wolałbym szkło na nóżce)
I have a Ph question, how often should you adjust the Ph during the brewing process? I really could have used this video sooner! I attempted water control for the first time and followed a Brewfather recipe. I put in lactic acid and checked the temperature when my 60 minute mash was done and saw it was 4.8 (as explained in this video!) I panicked and added baking soda to balance it out. After the boil and cooled down, it was down to 5.1, so i added a little more baking soda again before i pitched the yeast. All that to say, I feel like I messed up. But, I'm curious about my original question, when should I adjust for Ph and should I be continuing to adjust during the brew process. Thank you!!
Glad I watched this. You were right, there really were some gems 💎 .
Great video. I really appreciate interspersing Martin's insights during John's presentation. It helped me grasp the important kernels in there. I plan to pay more attention to this in the future! One question, got any recommendations on a budget -friendly pH meter?
Awesome video. Is there a play on pH in dry hopping?
Great Video! PH is by far the most underrated factor in Homebrewing. Good to see you devoting an episode to it. That said, I think you made an important point when discussing the experiments that actually the thing that people were tasting was the difference in the final beer ph. Really this is the number to focus on. Mash PH, isn’t nearly as important.
I really don't think that is what he said.
I haven’t been happy with my existing pH meter, so in research of a new one I found that most handheld pH meters homebrewers would buy have ATC, but only up to around 120ºF, which is not adequate for our mash temps. I’m not certain if the ATC on lab grade equipment would be more accurate at higher temps, but some do specifically have higher temp ratings. I’ll have to do some comparisons of the mash pH at temp vs room temp and see if my fancy new meter is consistent (and worth the expense). This was an interesting video, thanks!
Keep in mind that ATC is to keep the meter calibrated. Remember that you are looking for a (near) room temperature pH of 5.2-5.6, and at mash temp you would be looking for a different range, approx 4.9-5.3. Maybe I don't say it in this video, but measuring at high temp is stressful on you meter and shortens it's working life.
Is there a list with the preferred pH levels for different beer styles? I've been googling but I can't find much more than: dark beers pH around 5.6, light beers around 5.2. Seems like a good recommendation, however, if there is a more specific overview of pH levels in beer, that would be way better.
fantastic video & information -Thank You
Thanks for making all these in depth videos! One question I still have is: once I've taken a proper ph measurement, how do I calculate how much lactic acid to add to get to my target ph. people always seem to gloss over this detail and just add1-3 ml without explaining how they decided to add that much, but is there a more precise/rigorous way to determine how much to add?
Add the quantity of acid your brewing software recommends to bring you to your targeted pH. Measure the pH after 20 mins. Take notes. If necessary, adjust the acid addition on subsequent batches to bring you to your target. If still out, rinse and repeat.
Your measured pH is a point of reference for future batches and to refine that acid addition in subsequent brews. By the time you’re 20 mins into the mash, the majority of conversion has already taken place, rendering on-the-fly adjustments ineffective; It’s for future you
I imagine maintaining an accurate digital pH probe is a pain at home based on my experience in the lab. Has anyone found issues with accuracy with a digital pH meter? I had a look at a few that were available online and all the cheap ones appear to be pretty dodgy based on the reviews until the prices increase.
I thought at 77 degrees target is 5.4 -5.8
At mash temp target is 5.2-5.6
I calibrate at 77, target 5.4 for sparge water at 77 and acidify. then later if my mash reads 5.2 to 5.3 I let it go as correct. Am I doing something wrong in ph adjustment and target?
2:52 shows 20 degrees is room temp for calibration.
Adjusting sparge water ph below 6 was the biggest improvement to my home brew so it’s frustrating to see 12:34 that says water ph is not important for mash without also saying it is essential for sparge
Acidifying sparge water below six works, but probably not for the reason you think it is; that's the point I'm trying to make. You should be acidifying in order to neutralize the alkalinity, not to move the pH X amount. It often amounts to the same thing but it's treating the symptom vs. the cause if you get what I mean.
@JohnPalmer5367
Hi John, following on from your above reply: If sparging with RO water, there’s no benefit to acidifying the sparge water, assuming I’m happy with my pre-boil pH, which this acid addition to the sparge water would only serve to lower. Have I understood that correctly?
Along the same lines, using RO water, would one expect to discern any perceptible differences from adding all brewing salts to the mash water, vs splitting the salts proportionately between the mash and sparge (still finishing with identical water profiles), assuming identical pH values for both mashes? If not perceptible sensory differences, anything else we might expect to be able to measure or observe? Extraction potential? Differing wort composition or fermentability as a result of certain enzymes favoured?
This really is fascinating stuff, I’m going to have to buy your water book. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer, if you can
So now I'll take two measurements of the same wort with the same pH meter and see how much different the ATC one really is...
Great info thanks!
Wait. Did he say it was "a whole other box of frogs"?
If you don't measure mash PH until about 15 to 20 minutes into the mash and a correction is needed at the time of that measurement - how much affect is that correction going to have knowing that conversion is nearly complete at that time?
Ehhh, it's close enough. At 20 minutes you could expect to the mash to be a little lower than at 5 minutes, but maybe by .05? You want to be in the ballpark, not necessarily on home plate. It depends on what you are mashing, your water, etc., but nominally you can expect the pH to drop by about 0.2 pH during the hour, i.e., 5.3 to 5.1 for example. But, it may only drop by 0.1 during that time. Depends on the brew.
Mash pH is such a tough one to nail down though. It really requires making the same recipe multiple times to get it dialed in by trial and error because by the time you can get your mash pH reading, the mash is mostly done thanks to the super quick conversion speed of today's malts. Mostly I just take note of it for *next time* and adjust accordingly.
All depends how you see this. If receipe says 5.35 and you trying to hit that exactly then yeah it’s really hard. For me keeping in the range is more important than chasing single number.
The way I see it, unless you are going for consistency and max efficiency, it's not especially relevant for a homebrewer to manage pH as fastidiously as commercial breweries, but what do I know!
Im confused?!? At 15.30 he says that 6.1 at mash temperature translates to 5.8-5.9 at room temperature? But isnt it the other way round? That 6.1 at mash translates to 6.3-6.4 at room?!?
EGAD! You are correct Sir! pH is lower (more acidic) at higher temperature. I should have said 6.1 was like 6.4 if cooled to room temp and remeasured.
@@johnpalmer5367 Thanks for clearing that up. Now I feel confident, that I know enough about PH in wort to improve my beer.
So glad I found this comment. I was scratching my head for a full 24 hours on this one. Thank you so much John and Jonas!
The other thing is if you look at the clip where it shows the 6.1, the pH meter is also showing 73F... so that whole part of the conversation is moot to begin with.
I needed to type this before my brain exploded. So if you want a mash pH of 5.4 do you aim for a pH of 5.1 at room temp.
No, you want your mash pH to be 5.2-5.6 AT ROOM Temp. Don't measure your mash pH hot because it shortens your pH meter life. (If you ARE measuring at mash temp, you would be looking for ~4.9-5.3)
I think as far as John Palmer goes he makes home brewing to confusing for my simple country ways. I’ve been brewing for years and make pretty good beer without getting to deep
Hey, that's fair. Good brewing!
Want pro level beer? It's impossible without water chem control.
a bit of a wishwash…homebrewers will always lack parametric control somewhere. Just a bunch of hope and happy accidents.
what the heck is the noise in the background of the video at the start? it's really weird.
It sounds like opera music.
I adjust it using Brew'N water and that is it. I don't own a PH meter, and most likely will never buy one.
Mash pH not important, also make sure your meter is calibrated