Letter From a Frustrated Artist - Draftsmen S1E11
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- Stan gets an email from a frustrated student and forwards it to Marshall. Marshall gets obsessed with it spending days and days pondering the issue! This leads to discussions on mastery, overcoming frustration, and how having a negative attitude hurts your progression. A listener makes the draftsmen choose between technical prowess or art that evokes emotion. Blackwing pencils definitely does not sponsor this episode, but hopefully will in the future ;)
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/Draftsme...
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Do you guys have any advice for Rafael? How do you deal with frustration?
Put down his work and comeback to it 2 days later. Then, he should find inspiration to draw in the first place. Like watch a movie, comics or other artists to put him back to speed to drawing to increase progression.
Like you said believing in your self
A lot of it comes from being impatient, sometimes you just need time to think of something to draw
At the end of the spring term livestream with Lucas Graciano, I was about an hour into a 3hr head and just hated everything about it. Every time I'd walk away and come back it would get worse as I tried to fix it. I walked out of the studio and took a couple months off studying.
A couple months later (today, ironically), I put that unfinished head on the studio wall...because it's honestly not horrible.
I put it on the wall for a very important reason: objectivity. My absolute worst drawing this year is 'honestly not horrible'. That's progress, and I'll look to that 'bad' drawing as inspiration when I'm feeling like I'm terrible. In fact, I'm considering framing it :D
First I agree with taking a break between arting, working on the balance to not get burned out.
Secondly, If he is trying to study gesture and making a perfect mark, he would be asking for trouble because they are like sketches. I don't believe any sketchartist to do it exactly right the first time. If he keeps finding imperfections, also go back to studying forms and doing large strokes to work out the shoulder. It will give him slightly more control when doing smaller strokes. Just my thoughts as a beginner.
A wise teacher once said over analysis creates paralysis.
Stealing your good advice.
The best pieces of advice usually rhyme
All the advice that is usually fine
Are the ones that are short and conveniently rhyme
@@travispickle7591 a year late but "worth your time" instead of "fine"
Your advice spoke to me... thank you very much for that.
"You don't need to 'struggle' at all. You can enjoy it starting tomorrow if you choose to." - Stan
“This is the real secret of life -- to be completely engaged with what you are doing in the here and now. And instead of calling it work, realize it is play.” - Alan Watts
Enjoy the plateau.
I'm a little surprised you guys didn't mention Impostor Syndrome, which is essentially where people doubt their abilities despite evidence to the contrary. I think a lot of artists suffer from it. I know I do. I've been a professional artist for years, but I've never considered making any sort of art tutorial videos or anything like that because every time I sit down to draw I feel like I have basically no idea what I'm doing. Even when I have a good day and put out a piece that I'm momentarily proud of, I go and look at some pro artist on Artstation and it makes me feel utterly incompetent by comparison. I think a lot of artists, and probably anyone doing something remotely creative has issues like that.
I know this is an old comment, but, I'd like to ask of you've found any ways of dealing with it. I relate so much.
@@alangodinez5487 Reflection, the act of looking back at your own work. There's a podcast episode from Blender Guru that talks about the habits for successful artists. Look it up on TH-cam, it's the first episode.
Stan, Marshall, as a subscriber and heartfelt admirer of your work I would like to express my sincere gratitude to you both for the Draftsmen podcast. It is authentic, helpful, and a powerful source of motivation for those struggling with their own artistic aspirations. Thank you. Thank you both, from all of us.
Advice for Rafael from a professional musician.
I make my living playing guitar and singing. I've been playing concerts since I was 10 years old (I'm 43 now) and i'm still learning and improving. But one thing that struck me about Rafael's story is it is very similar to mine when I was studying jazz guitar. I was obsessed!! I would practice 9 hours a day and gig in the evenings and I seemed to get worse. I got so angry and so frustrated, but I was determined, so I just practiced more and more until one day I went crazy and quit altogether. I hardly touched my guitar in 6 months. Then I got called for some blues gigs and I started to improve! I was hardly playing and I was getting better by the week. I came back with a fresh perspective and what I believe to be the key to learning and breaking plateaus... TAKE TIME OFF!!!
Your mind and body need time to assimilate all the new information you are feeding them and they just can't keep up if you don't take time off.
Rafael, take 2 weeks away from drawing. Don't touch a pencil in two weeks. Forget about it. Live a bit. Do something else. Then come back and go easier. Less hours a day, a day or 2 off a week. I'm almost certain you will see better improvement. It sounds crazy and counter productive, but you can study, and even care, too much and you just get all bound up and tight and hateful and then your art/music will look/sound like that.
I haven't practiced guitar in years now. I just play gigs and run the tunes I have to play for those gigs, and I am still improving. Those 9 hours a day are still showing results 10 years later. No joke!
Hope that helps.
This. Breaks let your brain synthesise the work you do! V counter productive but WORKS.
Totally agree! Time off Works for me too 😊
It’s like exercising. Take a break every once in a while.
I'm also positive that Raf's problem is one of two things:
He's not learning from materials that "click" with him or it's a personal problem. Or, maybe it's both. Usually, the first component is indicative of the second.
I have very bad ADHD. I resisted getting treatment until about a year ago when, all of sudden, everything started "working" for me mentally. And the biggest thing I found was that I need to learn from people who click with me.
Guess what? Most people don't .
I've dropped about 5k in books on the arts over the years only to find that, upon getting help, maybe three or so work for me.
Even worse: All the time I spent trying to learn things and being hard on myself because I didn't get it.
For example: I don't get the Loomis Method. Sure, I can do it, but it makes no friggin computational sense to my brain. Therefore, no matter how much I practice, I never figured it out or liked the approach.
But then I found classes by Steve Huston who teaches a constructive approach to things: organic form norms like squares, rectangles, cylinders, etc but with variations on them and the ability to "get it wrong" or screw up.
I also found that academic drawing worked really well for me too, using a 1:1 to sight-to-size method when I'm painting.
But if I turn on Glen Vilppu videos - of who I aspire my drawings to be like more than anything - it makes no sense to me. So my brain shuts down and I go to something else.
If I had any advice for Rafael, it would be FIND WHAT WORKS AND DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU.
Plus, figure out what kind of artist you want to be before you decide which type of art to practice.
The problem is that most of us can't parse what works for us and what doesn't. It took me 30 years, failing out of schools, racking up major college debt, and finally seeking mental help to find out what works for me, and I've made more progress in a year than I did in 30. And I have zero talent, by the way. It's all hard work.
Find out what works for you. Having a "teacher" means nothing if that teacher doesn't work for you.
Usually, the way you approach other things in life is the way you'll get good at drawing. For example, I'm pretty analytical and procedural. I like interlocking ideas and repeatable steps, not so much philosophy or winging it. Yet some are the complete opposite.
That's why Steve's stuff worked for me so well, and why the Proko stuff worked really well, too. There is a method.
Finally: Your stuff isn't bad. But nothing is "good or bad," just good or bad to us. Ever walk into a museum of modern art where there is a display of gum wrappers in the shape of a bunny? Well, that doesn't appeal to me at all, yet it appeals to enough people that someone got a showing for their art.
Stop being so damn hard on yourself. Reprioritize and reposition ASAP.
Loomis method doesn’t click for me, either. I can do it, but it’s a real struggle, and everything comes out looking really weird. Lately I’ve just been starting with the eyelids in what feels like proper placement, and work it out from there. Also, thanks for mentioning the ADHD. I was diagnosed as a kid, but never got treated, and now I’m having a terrible time trying to focus as an adult. So I think I’m going to see someone about it.
I kinda have the same problem everytime I try to learn the art fundemetals I can't understand anything at all and I have head pains (I'm 12 btw) I dont know how to cope with head pains it hurts me mentally. And it leads me to frustration and not reading more pages in art books.
I very much agree. Finding the right method for yourself is so very very important!
It's one of those things that are true for everyone, but most people overlook them, because there's nothing forcing them to be way more efficient then they'd naturally be.
@@sukikazuki1358 Many of those books aren't really aimed at people your age. Maybe it would help to find resources made for your age group. Of course I don't know on which level you're dewing, but at 12, your best bet is to have fun with art and not treat it like a chore.
You have an idea what to draw? Look for a tutorial or something that explains just that thing you want to draw. Keep it simple and fun. Make things that show results fast.
At your age your brain isn't yet as time aware and can't handle the idea of timely distant gratification (You personally can understand it, but your brain doesn't 'feel' it yet. It's like explaining someone how strawberries taste: they'll understand your words but won't 'feel' the taste. That's just an issue of brain growth, you can do little about.).
Have you ever seen the 'How to draw Manga' books by Hikaru Hayashi? I feel like they are right in between of children's and adult's books on art. Simplistic, but not acting like the reader has the thought capacity and artistic talent of a toaster.
What you could also do, is to just do a lot of life drawings. Forgo the theory completely and just try to get an eye for how things really look and train your hand to do what you want it to do. Although I'm not a teacher and don't know if that's the best approach, but I feel like that's a very practical skill that will surely come in handy later on.
@@sukikazuki1358 Ashley, at 12, I was only really concerned with getting school done for the week and playing video games. So, first, awesome for you that you're trying to do something. May I suggest you try this website: www.drawabox.com
I recommend this because it is the lead-in to a drawing method called "dynamic sketching." And the basis is something you've probably done since you were old enough to remember drawing: sketching squares, circles, cylinders, cubes, and triangles.
You have TIME on your side. Don't worry about the "fundamentals of art." Just focus on learning to draw basic shapes for the next few years. Play around with them. See how you can "make things" with box shapes. Circle shapes. Rectangles. Then, when you are trying to learn how to do a face, it will all make sense.
Drawabox.com and "dynamic sketching" with basic shapes are your best friend, in my opinion, at this age. Don't worry about having a style. Just look at a lot of art that you like to look at and things will happen naturally.
'No man can think straight when his fists are clenched.' - George Jean Nathan
Best comment
Marshall should sing a new song every intro
yes! he has such a great voice! :D
Marshall has some really great singing potential! I agree that he also has a good speaking voice and it's relaxing to listen to him on this podcast.
I vote Alice in Chains, next. Them Bones, maybe?
Rafael, I've been a professional artist for 25 years who has struggled with procrastination, self loathing, negativity and worst of all Perfectionism. It has kept me from pursuing an avenue of art I love to do, of which I'm in the process of changing, but I can say 25 years is a too long a time to be pinned down by my inhibitions and frustration.
You need to share your work with other artists who are interested in seeing you grow. Understanding this is important because you need to know critiques are honest, genuine and delivered with your best interest in mind.
Perfection is paralysis - This is true in Art, Business, Planning and Strategy. Once you come to terms with this and free yourself, you will improve. Bless you.
@G. Art is a form of communication "Leon Tolstoi". You've chosen this form of communication to express yourself then great, embrace it and own it, there shouldn't be any imposter syndrom there just express yourself using art and as you do it, say to yourself "yes, I'm an artist", you'll be amazed as how affirming it helps you make progress. Good luck!
I am 32, I studied engineering physics for my earlier years then I fell in love with art after my post-grad. In my opinion, the end goal is not becoming good at art or something(which eventually happens). I have only one life and I am enjoying painting more than the most things I have done so far. Long story short, it is the journey that is important rather than the goal. I am planning to paint as long as I enjoy doing it...
I heard that on the set of “Once Upon a Time...In Hollywood,” Tarantino threw a massive fit because he only wanted to film the most beautiful feet, but Marshall was not available to come to set. Suffice it to say the movie suffered as a result. Thank you Marshall for putting our desire to learn ahead of a maniacal Hollywood director’s demands!
Marshal: literally anything.
Me:Wow, thats deep...
Same tbh
its the voice
Yeah, he has a deep voice.
Lots of great points on this one. Hearing the letter the person sounds really focused/obsessed w/ details and results. Lots of numbers like percentages, the amount of years, and the amount of hours put in, and expecting some standard of greatness in return. Going through the letter I was asking myself: "Who or what are you comparing yourself to? What's the goal in mind, if any?"
I really think it's a matter of perspective/mentality, maybe even a whole shift of approach. One way to look at it is that art can't always easily be put into a box of good and not good. A lot of famous artists had masterpieces that they didn't even like but others obviously did. You do it because you love to do it and/or can't see yourself doing anything else. You have to let go of the frustration that is tied to perfectionism and the standards of 'what is good'. The journey is never-ending, filled with peaks and valleys, and you shouldn't expect it to end. I think it's a good approach for lots of things in life in general.
The point they both made about mastery is interesting: "pleased but not satisfied." In other words, mastery of art is a lot more flexible than rigid (though making money might put you in a box). I think it's also degree/freedom of control. You always have the drive to improve, but you know where to go to improve and how to adjust yourself to do so. I read Robert Greene's version of Mastery so I'm looking forward to Leonard's!
Agree!
Frustration happens when reality doesnt match our desires. When we are frustrated, our bodies tense up. Our hands and arms (the portals that show others our inner visions) stiffen and become more unwieldy.
Each stroke of the brush or pencil is a message about the artist's current state. If an artist is hungry, their strokes will hasten so they can eat sooner. If they are tired, their strokes will be longer and slower.
When your body is stiff, your arms and hands wont be able to to accurately create the vision in your mind. This parallax will lead to more frustration. An endless cycle of frustration as reality differs from our inner vision. Its easy to forget one of the most fundamental fundamentals: healthy posture.
Let go of your frustration. Take a brake. Lower your expectations for awhile. Draw abstract, draw environments. Draw bad on purpose. Draw things that dont require perfection. Treat drawing like a stranger and fall in love with it again.
If you can spot flaws in your art, thats a sign you are improving. Flaws are a good thing that separate drawing from photography. Flaws make each drawing unique and attach the image to their creator. If everyone drew perfect realistic art, we'd be cameras and not humans.
An artist puts their life and soul into their works. We will always find flaws, especially when we spend hours or days working on a piece. Remember that the average viewer only spends a few seconds looking at our work and won't see the flaws.
Also, Stan used the blackwing in the zoo sketch video a few weeks ago with Aaron Blaise. They probably got a bump in sales from that exposure.
I constantly find myself writing down sayings from Marshall in my sketchbook when listening to these podcasts, I can't believe we get to listen to these for free!
Marshall is genius. I've enjoyed this episode the most.
I've been drawing for a decade now, but I did not get good until 8 years into my studies. Sometimes your brain just need a lot of time and practice to understand what it needs to do
That profile picture makes this comment 10 times more comical.
@@sweatybabypowderhands843 thanks i drew it myself
@@ChrisSkjrvik noice
Sweaty Baby Powder Hands lool
Marshal : say some wise knowlogde.
Stan in the first 5 secs : haha lol
The guy needs REST. The stuff learned needs time to “gel” in his mind. Also accept that drawing is a life long process, it takes a long time. There should be plenty of directionless nonsense drawing that happens for the hell of it, with no expectation of outcome. “Doodling”.
I doodle on at least 3 or so pages before actually practicing just to loosen up, takes the pressure off
I have experienced this with chess. I'm terribly unskilled and low rated, but on a few occasions my progress stopped; however, when I stopped playing altogether for a month, sometimes two, and then returned to chess, my level of play and rating shot up by 100-200 points worth (basically, that means I would beat someone of my pre-break rating 7+ out of 10 games).
It's a well known phenomenon that the brain needs times of rest to process it all, just as you say.
People dont realize how fast you improve if you doodle alot AND draw from life and do all those studies and practice and things
Frustration, my #1 nemesis.
Somehow I always come back and keep getting better, though. Sometimes it takes a couple days, sometimes a couple months. I'm getting better about identifying the signs and not letting it get too far before I back off whatever project/lesson I was on.
Podcast feedback: Marshal is an excellent teacher. He’s empathetic, knowledgeable and has great stories + references to tell while answering questions! I love it that he gets to the bottom of someone’s query and would much rather address the thought behind it. Stan, you’re a rockstar and your podcasts are very very insightful. Thankyou!
Man... I was just like Rafael just some weeks ago. I was unable of enjoy the craft, all my drawings sucked to my eyes, and i was unnable of drawing a line from imagination. My answer is... read George Leonard’s Mastery. Just read it, but READ IT. Let it sinck into you, let it go deep to your heart, let it speak to your very soul. To me, that was the a tippint point. Now I enjoy myself at drawing, im FINALLY studying Andrew Loomis CORRECTLY (or, at least, Im seeing slow and stady, but firm and loved development). And Im enjoying myself at drawing.
Read it, is worth it.
Rafael I feel your pain. I'm relearning to create art in drawing and painting after a stroke in my right motor cortex (I'm left -handed and the stroke effects my left side. However if I concentrate on how far I have come and just enjoy the process it goes better. Focusing on the product gives me stress and that makes the work stiff; so I actively try to remind myself to enjoy the process take breaks to just doodle or do abstract work in-between representational work. It helps me a lot.
Helen Bonnett I agree. That’s just what he needs to do.
Proko, thank you for this. I wish I had heard this Podcast when I first started. It took me years to learn that my attitude and emotions towards learning were what was holding me back from learning. Not the actual lessons and art itself. I did exactly what you suggest, meditation, yoga and learned to let go. After that everything started to take off. So, I almost feel like I wasted the last few years. But now, its been smooth sailing using the exact lessons you suggest here. So, thank you for this podcast. I think I am going to save it for when I need to hear these lessons again. Another good book is "The Practicing Mind."
The thumbnails are getting better and better with each video. I love it.
For Rafael
Hi, i've been a profesional artist for 30 years, and I started really trying to work on my craft about 5 years before that. I grew up with a mother who worked in animation so I had the privilege of getting to see a lot of art made before i ever tried to make any too.
That translated to a bit of head start when i went to an art school at 15. When others were still getting familiar on the tools I had already seen in action for years i was able to dive in and try to emulate the techniques I'd seen being used all that time, often way ahead of what the teachers planned for the classes i was in the first year.
That helped me expedite my learning curve, but there was one still. I was able to get work in about 5 years because i practiced several hours a day. In school I had two classes of art lessons daily plus I'd work on my assignments or my personal stuff lunch period, and then several more hours of drawing at home at night.
When I was kicked out of school for taking a liberal attitude towards academic class attendance, I drew even more hours a day.
My goal was to make each drawing I did a little bit better than the last one in some way, and i i took a very deliberate focused approach identifying isolated skills at any given time I was developing.
I got good fast that way, and have been able to earn a living most of my life from art.
But i've never 'mastered' anything really. I think the second you think you have, you don't just plateau, you start to get worse because you're not trying to improve anymore. I have only ever mastered if anything, the art of learning.
Well said!
Don't throw your work away! A year later bring out those drawings that you did and compare to see if you got better and if you see things that need changing then change it. Keep drawing! Quit smoking!
Preview image is hilarious! 😂 Please give an award and medal to the genius who made it. Thanks!
What a wonderful dialogue! Portraying the fact that how challenging being a human could be. Thanks Marshall and Stanislav!
being able to spot mistakes in your work should be seen as a good thing because it means your ability to see what looks right and wrong has improved.
What an incredible adition to promo, this man named Marshall. His experiences and wisdom expressed in every advice he gives. I appreciate Stan a lot but this guy, man. He's blessed with the gift of the speech as well. I'm sending my love from Brazil!
My fine artist mentor told me that our consistent "mistakes" are what makes us unique. Instead of hating "mistakes", play with them, take it in a different direction just for the fun of it. So as I strive for realism I play with a more illustrative or even very abstract take on the area I labeled a "mistake" and enjoy that particular exploration. I'm a dabbler and a very new artist, so in my avoidance I've explored other mark making techniques and enjoyed the journey. Now I'm coming back around to drawing. Thank you Stan & Marshall!
These episodes just keep getting better and better. Talk about learning... you both are showing us what it looks like to improve as you go because you enjoy the process. Very cool episode! Thanks!
This one really hits home for me. I gave up on drawing for almost 20 years because I didn’t feel like I was good enough. Even in the last 5 years I have almost given up because of my frustration with my progress. Luckily I have the best mentor ever... my wife. I have watched her struggle with health issues, a complete change in life when we had our kids and the constant change of military life. But that perspective helped me find my way. Is she could deal with all that life threw at her so could I, and sure enough I watched my art improve. Sometimes our perspective is the problem. So I began looking for the things I liked about each thing I drew and what I needed to correct to make it better. Then I would work on that. It has helped. I’m not a master by any stretch, but I only worry about one problem at a time and celebrate the small victories.
i used to feel the same way about my art. I hated every piece i did because of lil mistakes, bad composition, not exactly what I was expecting.... Then I read " The Plateau Effect" changed my perception on my progress and allowed me to accept the mistakes more as a bump on the path rather than a system meltdown. Which in turn I feel has helped me achieve more progress, even if its at a slow pace.
This is so helpful. Thank you. My mother was an artist and I admired her drawing skills. One day when I was a kid I decided I was going to draw like she did. When I wasn’t able to do it, I quit in frustration. Years later, I find that I thoroughly enjoy creating art and am following my passion for it. I wish I had understood at the time that it takes time to gain a skill. Take a deep breath Rafael and begin again. Keep going Raphael, you’ve go this.
To think that there could be a parallel universe where Marshall doesn't exist... It keeps me up at night.
Im just starting art at 40, every drawing I make brings satisfaction because there is an effort to draw it better than the last one, I know it has mistakes but fewer than the last one. this mindset makes me enjoy each practice greatly. Sometimes those "aha!" moments come when something clicks and you can suddenly draw a new feature from any angle LEVEL UP! Look at it as an RPG game, enjoy the journey from the beginning to the end, when you reach level 99 and finish the game, start a new one, learn new techniques and enjoy again. You will be a master without knowing that you are.
This may sound strange, but I have always felt really, really good when I could look at something I'd drawn and see flaws. I genuinely feel like it means that I have improved. In my mind, being able to notice when something is wrong is already improvement, as opposed to drawing something that you think is perfect, that actually isn't, but you can't even tell... Being able to notice flaws sort of paves the path for improvement.
"the most difficult pregnancies can make the BEST babies" lol with that one xD
Gzus I just love you two, you guys are so charismatic! really loving this podcasts, thanks for making this podcast.
You never “achieve mastery", you’re only as good as your last drawing. You don’t reach a level and then just decide you’re a master and sit back, satisfied. You always have to do more drawings.
Your best podcast yet in my opinion!
Not understanding these issues of self image, learning and FUN, is what stops most people persevering with their art studies, at least in my practice.
Express what you feel in the picture, create from imagination. Nothing better, purest satisfaction. There is no bad or good drawings, only stories and its charecters
I've been on the edge of my seat waiting for a new episode. I'm hooked!
I've listened repeatedly to an audiobook Campfire by Marco Bucci and it was very enlightening on the psychology of an artist and how to expand your mindset on art in general. Highly recommend
I used to be pretty self critical with my art. It, similarly to Rafael, made me very frustrated and greatly hindered my progress.
What worked for me was to start seeing my practice as practice and when I saw a mistake just acknowledge it as an acceptable mistake and then only try to avoid it in the next drawing. Try not to fix the mistakes you made previously, and instead try to prevent them from future drawings. This way you are making quantity over quality, which is proven to make you improve faster.
It’s not easy to see practice as practice, I still strongly struggle with it, and it takes time to learn to do it, but I can assure you, it is a critical skill to have for mental health.
You won't learn by avoiding mistakes,that s why we have mistakes,so that we can learn from that.Doing mistakes is failing basically and to not fail next time you gotta see why you did fail,the same thing that you did say.You don't do that tho by avoiding,you embrace it instead and fix it so that the next time you get to a similar thing you ll do it right.
Also,quantity won't make you improve faster than quality but instead quality quantity will do it.
Dyetaa
I didn’t mean to avoid fixing mistakes entirely. I meant only to stop fixing them once you have declared the practice (or project) completed. If you’re constantly fixing mistakes from your previous art, you will never move on from it.
This is just my personal experience though. Maybe fixing your mistakes in previous art helps you improve faster. If so, that’s completely fine. Everybody is different.
@@jaydon4574 Yeah,i agree now.
Nothing else to say haha.
Or maybe to add more to it,you should start studying and practicing goal oriented and fix just the big mistakes that are related to the thing you re studying.
Great conversation, guys. I love the quote from C.S. Lewis that Marshall offered up, "...Being pleased but not satisfied". That's going to go up on my wall of reminders by my work area. Thanks!
I'm enjoying these podcasts so much. Thanks for helping Raphael and all of us frustrated artists! The insights you provide are so valuable
OMG I love Marshal's voice S2
Don't we all? It's so delightful to listen
The key is to enjoy the process....not the result.
Marshall Vandruff is the most lovable old dude I've ever seen. You've made my life more musical, Marshall.
Something a bit unusual that has helped me improve is to hang up old drawings you've done in your room and study/analyze your old art. Even if they are 10 years old and you find them _very_ flawed still do it. It's demotivating to not see or even feel progress, but if you surround yourself with signs of progress you'll feel less like your not improving. If you're petty like me you'll even hang up your first painting just to prove to yourself you've gotten somewhere, that even though it takes on step at a time, those steps accumulate into a long journey. Progress is slow for most people because, yes drawing, and learning all the fundamentals is a long journey. A journey that is worth it. Even through all the pain and struggle it is most certainly worth it. Because learning is essential pain, but learning nothing is meaningless pain.
Best Draftsmen episode yet! Every artist should watch this episode every day until they have it memorized!
I am a little late to this conversation but I have suffered from this myself many times. I’ve found that I have had to step back and realize that every one can do better. We should always want to be better than we were yesterday. I’ve learned to be happy with my work and my frustration has eased up and my work performance has gotten better.
A very therapeutic episode. This has saved my (art) life. The discussion in this video helped remind me to enjoy my work and pulled me out of my perfectionist obsessive misery. 👍🏽
My advice for Rafael would be: "Understand things like the Law of Attraction and the power of BELIEF! 'Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life'... These topics are far more powerful for you than ANY drawing lesson or practice you could do. Your frustration & anger with yourself & all that negative energy is the ONLY THING holding you back. I KNOW this... You have to find a way to BELIEVE with all your being that you CAN & WILL reach your goals. You won't make it otherwise. Your thoughts and emotions have way more power than I think most people realize. I'm right there with you Rafael and I wish you the absolute best!"
"a pot watched never boils" and "are we there yet" are 2 good phrases to describe Raphael's frustrations.
💡 Mastery is drawing/painting something from imagination in any angle, lighting, etc. Mastery is a 20+ year endeavor of daily deliberate practice.
Proficiency - drawing designs using reference. Copying the reference using intuitive construction methods that allow creative tweaks and changes.
Creating something aesthetically pleasing is not only being proficient in drawing things, but also (mostly) having an eye for design & composition, color & texture patterns, etc. A good eye is set in place through master studies.
To enjoy the plateaus: make the environment enjoyable (have your favorite things around you or make it social)
From my experience, frustrations come periodically, it is the rest you need and hard work to get back at it. Which will help you overcome this battle with anything in life
this has been one of the most helpful things ive seen lately, I am a digital artist, and although I spent 10 years and a lot of money getting a BFA in digital art, I have yet to really have any success or get a job doing art, I did get to meet Kevin Eastman(creator of TMNT) and he said I was a good artist, so that was pretty cool...anyways! if you are frustrated try to really figure out what specifically your frustrated with, and whittle away at them, is it line quality, flow, or time spent on one drawing, or shading/rendering, or detail vs simplicity...pick one and focus on getting better and you will improve in all aspects, and then move to the next thing! Also remember that when you finish a piece, that at that point you are the only person who has seen it, but you need to get feedback from other people to convince your brain not to destroy it! i.e. don't believe everything you think! if you love doing something, you owe it to yourself not to quit...but you can and should take breaks! sorry for all the exclamation points...but writing this is also helping me take my own advise. cheers!
www.artstation.com/austinfoster
These podcasts are the best! You guys have revived TH-cam for me. This is the best thing in the internet
Here is a lesson that I think applies to most things: You are not your work. Performing well doesn't make you better, and failing doesn't make you worse. You need to live a life you can be proud of regardless of your output, otherwise the failures that are needed to advance will crush you.
Sing Marshall, sing!! Yeah, I do experience frustration sometimes but I'm too old to waste precious life in being frustrated and not drawing or painting. I think it is important to have very clear the answer to the question Why am I doing this?. There is plenty of satisfaction to be had if you draw because you like it, whether it is perfect or not. I liked the example about being married. Yes, no spouse is perfect, but you love her or him warts and all. If you draw because you love it, you'll keep loving the act of drawing (nothing to do with the end product) but the act in itself. It's great to have this concern to improve and make things better each time, but that concern should never be greater than the love of just grabbing a pencil and create something.
Since I was 16 years old up to 22 years old, I was learning how to play Cello, I can tell for sure, that playing an instrument is one of the hardest things I have ever tried to accomplish, repetitive work and the word Perfection was in the mouth of everyone. My classmates, my professors, outside the orchestra, the directors, etc have this word as a goal mentality. They said, you have to be good at getting the right pitch, the right tune, tempo, melody, the right technique, and the perfect memory in order to learn long pieces in a short among of time because at the end, you have one moment to show what you have working on and competing with others in order to get the opportunity to play abroad and bla bla bla; and It was hard. but in the end, I realized I was getting frustrated just because I got all those voices in my head telling me, you have to be perfect. and not enjoying the process. which at home was another thing. I enjoy what I could produce but in class and on rehearsals, It was all a matter of stress. So what I want to tell, with my story, is that many time, we are thinking about what others could think about us as producers of things, and overthink about the final result and not enjoying the actual process with its errors and tries. We have to embrace it, because what makes us unique as individuals and producer/artist/designer are our experiences and our thoughts of the world, at the end we all are humans and we all have to try up until we feel we accomplish something.
I looked at his art. He has nothing to feel bad about, keep it up friend. His centaur drawing is breathtaking
I’m a bit late to the show but- my Psych professor pointed out a study on productivity and stated that for every four hours of work/practice/study, you need an hour of decompression. It also works better if you switch the synaptic engagement method. If you’re doing something sedentary then do something kinetic! Or something similar but different. Take a nap! Eat some food. Carve some time for yourself that is uninterrupted.
My first Draftsmen podcast. So much wisdom in 40min. Love the chemistry between them, it's for more like friendship than father and son.❤️ Marshall has so well insight into things I can't even express.
I actually am finding a lot of help for this same type of frustration from the book called, "The Artists Way" by Julia Cameron. But its been really interesting seeing the same type of subjects weekly in each episode released of the podcast. Keep it real guys, you have a gold mine in these videos!
i want to hear marshal sing.
sing with him proko, it'll be fun to listen to you guys singing together.
yes, please! :3
The "Proko Guy" has a name. It's, Stan. His name is not Proko.
@@KitKatWiffleBallBat Yeah. His name is Stan Prokopiko
@@KitKatWiffleBallBat i know that. I never call youtubers by their real name. Pewdiepie is felix but i call him pewds. Other subscribers calls him proko instead of stan. Proko is short for prokopenko anyway so i'm basically calling him by name.
Personally best thing to deal with frustration is don't look at those 10 years or whatever timeframe you have. Don't rush and feel that you're out of time. just do it. you will progress naturally. Looking back at your old work will show you how much you progressed.
Good lord I think every artist in existence has been Raphael at some point in life. It practically comes with the territory.
You need to work smart AND diligently. A washing machine works hard but it doesn’t really get anywhere. I think iterative drawing with timed drawings to get the simplicity of form down 1st. It strikes me that you are trying to get to completion each time you sit down rather than building a strong foundation. I have a LONG way to go and I’ve been working on it all my life. There is always more to learn but NOT obsessing on finishing... doing lots of quick iterative drawings to build up the skills of structure will help. Then realize as artists... we are all our own worst critics.
Jim Middleton I also sensed that he is trying to complete a product rather than practicing foundational skills for the sake of learning only.
There are different skills involved in finishing/rendering an image.. but it's like polishing a turd if the base is substantially flawed. You can probably make quicker progress focusing on the basics and at the same time it will have a much bigger impact on the result.
Not the guy, same name and totally happy for that e-mail. I'm struggling with quite the same issue. These podcasts are making my journey more pleasant and hopefull. Thank you guys very much! Stan and Marshall, you guys are awesome! Love from Brazil!
I'm a student of digital art. Before digital I did traditional drawing from reference. Then came a day where I found a reference image but not in the position I wanted. I researched for a solution to turn it and discovered perspective. But because of that I approached pieces by layout and perspective first before thumbnail and got burnt out. Then to combat that I just went back to my original way of drawing just to draw. I'm finding you can marry the two approaches. I think that's how professional artists seem to flow. It's the discovery of how to solve compositional road blocks quickly by past experiences with older projects.
yo Rafael, just be PROUD!! Cuz when ur proud u have more fun drawing and that helps u be more positive and draw more! which equals to more practice and thus u can develop ur skills better too! u have spent so much time on drawing and have become pretty good with hardwork and stuff... just coz u wanna get better, ur frustrated A.K.A. striving to be a better self...and thats actually positive thing if u ask me..
guys. your podcasts are very inspiring. the mindsets you explain over the course just make sense. to me its just easy to follow your explanations and adapt them to my own attempts at using my time worthwhile. I love art. I´m not sure what part of it though. which is probably my biggest issue. not being able to focus on one thing so i can master that while enjoying it. But at least your podcasts help me enjoy this path of executing creative work in multiple directions. I hope i can at some point give myself the opportunity to focus on something that will eventually bear fruit on its own. And if I do i can guarantee that your podcast has been of great influence to that. It is already influential on me so i have to thank you dearly.
As for suggestions, when I get on a "frustration period" I just try to do other stuff, play games, movies, reading, etc. The frustration fades with time, but the love for drawing always stay, and soon the need to draw just come back with all force.
I've been drawing for about ten years. I started when I was 18. I'm now 27. And, you do in fact improve. You just have to be patient with yourself. Also, I would recommend taking breaks. I took a whole year from drawing because I realized that I was just doing the same repetitive art practice. In that year, I discovered that I was proficient at writing which has blossomed into a newly pathway into the animation industry. Instead of stopping drawing, I now keep it as a way to warm up before writing. I keep the same intensity to learn, but now the stress of "HAVING TO LEARN TO DRaw" has lifted. This has cause my brain to be able to learn faster, and discover new methods to draw. So maybe, Marry what your good at and Have an affair with your passion; metaphorically speaking of course.
Been enjoying the thoughts shared on this podcast, and I think this was one of the best episodes so far. So many excellent points here!
On the note of perfectionism holding us back; my teacher used to tell us we had to “lose our drawing to find it”. What he meant by that was that we had to try to let go of tightness and perfectionism in the early stages, holding off on details and learning to even be ok with an “ugly” stage, letting go of the need to make it beautiful the whole way through so it had a stronger chance of being beautiful in the end. If you “care less” in a way, as in, not worrying about how it looks right out the shoot or whether you or others are impressed or think it’s beautiful, and thinking instead about making broader things roughly correct in a loose, adjustable way, this helps lay the foundation for all the stuff we are ultimately grasping for in the first place when we’re being pulled in by the siren song of putting in details too early. I think that same idea applies through a lot of art; learning to let go - or at least make the effort to set aside - my insecurities, the feeling of needing to prove myself, the desire for instant results - feels incredibly counter-intuitive, but I believe it can be learned, and it makes a huge difference.
Something else that has impacted my art journey (and helped me SO much through some of my own worst moments of fear and frustration) is Neil Gaiman’s “Make Good Art” commencement speech. I relisten to that any time I need a reminder of the big picture, and it’s one of the most encouraging, motivating, reassuring things I’ve ever encountered in the world of art advice. If you haven’t seen that yet, I can’t recommend it enough.
Lastly, I think it’s definitely a very normal thing to experience frustration with the gap between where you are and where you want to be. The thing is, no matter where you get to, I feel like the bar is always higher than you thought it was before you got there. I thoroughly second Stan’s comment on going back through really old work. That can be really encouraging when it doesn’t feel like you’re moving forward. I think it’s also important to try to see what you do well along with what you want to improve. If you only mentally categorize your problem areas, all you’ll be doing is trying to avoid making mistakes (which sounds like a recipe for frustration to me), but if you also try to make note of some strong areas, things you did well, or even one little thing you liked, you’ll start to have something you can try to repeat too, which means it’s now about what you can DO (actionable), and not just what you want to try NOT to do (avoidance). On this note, you might also enjoy Sycra’s video on art block, where he talks about this frustration a bit as well, and mentions some ways to try dealing with it.
P.S. I just saw someone commented about making yourself wait to eat or drink until you make something. Sorry, but I just feel I need to say that, in my own experience at least, withholding necessities (food, bathroom breaks) from myself as something to be had when I finish a section of work has proven to be terrible for me and my art. If I’m very tired and hungry, the best thing in the world I can do for my painting is to stop and eat lunch. I’ve made some of my worst mistakes and caused myself unnecessary frustration by thinking “I can go eat or run to the bathroom just as soon as I finish this bit”, which meanwhile leaves me distracted because I’m feeling physically uncomfortable, and it ends up I lose focus and/or rush something that would have been better to just leave and come back to. Sorry, just had to say that. Food and breaks (within reason) should be fuel, not rewards, imo.
Thank you for this! I'n struggling so much with being far too critical of myself, and prob working too fast learning. But I can't and won't give up.
I'll stress every time, artists would be at a huge loss without your entire catalog of videos.
honestly my favorite episode from you guys thank you for this one
My gosh, you guys have no idea how much I love this show. It's all kinds of great. Funny, informative, authentic and insightful. This just lights up my day whenever I watch it. Keep it up guys!
Stan: “You can enjoy it starting tomorrow, if you choose to.” Wisdom.
One Cause of Frustration
Examine the cause of our frustration. Very often it is because we overestimate our learning and execution abilities.
Stay humble. Admit we are not born geniuses.
Commit. Embrace the journey.
Quit smoking. Live long enough to see our dreams realize.
I feel his pain. What advice do you have for higher level artists who have worked professionally but haven’t found consistent success?
Does succes means selling art? Van Gogh sold only one painting in his short life. Władysław Strzemiński sold nothing. I don't know how to do it either. I want to be better.
How do you define success?
@@J4n37r3n0 For me is to beat myself. To make better paintings filled with my knowledge and fillings. My dream is to be a sacral painter, to paint for a Catholic Church. I just want to paint. And have my exhibition. If I built my gallery I will be super succesfull!
@@LadyAlleria what jajaja. van gogh sold more than one painting. do some research
@@rittsuo4584 After he died, yes.
Stan I agree with you.. learn is a beautiful thing, even if you're at a high level, I'm not into the drawing, I'm in a different business but what you and Marshall say is good for any business. When someone asks me what's my best figure.. I use to say "the next one", and improvement is like a marathon.. one step a time, also accepting the frustration, and probably we have to learn how to manage it as well.
So I've ready "The Art of Learning" and "Mastery" now. I highly recommend both if you've already been a struggling yet ambitious learner like our friend Rafael.
"The Art of Learning" is more of a memoir by the "kid" from "Finding Bobby Fisher." If you're looking for the nuance behind learning and mindset, this might be good for you.
But he doesn't break it down, he doesn't go into detail about what you should 'take-away.' This is where "Mastery" comes in so beautifully. It was, as Marshall mentions, a quick read yet packed FULL of what it takes to develop mastery.
Advice given to Vollaton by another artist was that his frustration came from not loving his craft. Learn to love making art while you are doing it instead of thinking about the results of it and your art will instantly improve. Concentrate on the prize, you miss the target. Concentrate on the target, you win the prize.
Im glad you left his Instagram in the description Im definitely following this dude
"Hacker" is absolutely the wrong term for that type of person. The term comes from "hacking away at" problems. Computer hackers were seen as coming up against a seemingly unsurmountable obstacle and just hacking away at it (very much like the philosophy and meaning of Kung Fu) until the obstacle is surpassed.
"Slacker," would be a better term for someone who does just enough to get by.
On perfectionism: With my commercial art and game dev work, deadlines helped. High standards are great but complete the work as best as possible within a time frame. Best advice I ever had was from a producer who talked about aiming for 80% of your 'best work'. A complete project at 80% of your personal standard of 'perfection' is going to be amazing to most clients. If we have time, you can go back and tweak this or that, but at least the product is complete and can ship. It's NOT to accept for less, definitely want for more, but don't expect to perfect it in any one design. Skill develops with each work. I've seen younger artists work for months on one personal design, refining and frustrating over small details. A solution would be to 'just get it done' and save those learned fixes for solving in the NEXT work, and your finished work will improve naturally.
Something that helped me is understanding something that occurs when you improve. There are are 2 parts to being a better artist. One is your skill at making art. The other is perceiving what makes good art. These two factors improve and plateau alternatively. As you peek in making good art you begin to be able to see how other art is "better" or how your skill "could" improve. As your ability to see the difference in your art increases, it can appear as though you have decreased in skill, when in fact you are still just as skilled. You are simply recognizing that there is room for improvement. There is a video that describes this better than I have but I can't seem to find it at the moment. If anyone can link, please do.
I have SO much fun with you guys. Thank you Marshall and Stan, not only I learn lots but also always end up laughing out loud with you both :D
Thank you so much for doing this podcast for the world ♥
My advice for Rafael is to learn to have healthy, helpful criticism of your own work, while at the same time having fun, and not stressing about it.
Learn to critique yourself without taking it to heart. If you are stressing about it to the point that it impacts your health, is this a career that is a right fit?
Not saying that you aren't a great artist, I think you are. It's the emotional and mental struggle I heard in the letter. Is freelance the right fit for you on that level? You can totally do it on a skill level. Careers are more than skill and talent. It almost seemed like you didn't enjoy drawing and freelance from how your letter sounded.
You should be able to see your work for what it is. It's great, and like Stan said, there's is room for improvement. That's at any level. That's just being an artist. You keep having fun and moving forward no matter how long it takes.
For you to constantly sabotage your own success, to me makes me think you aren't having fun with this.
Think about the reason why you are putting so much pressure on yourself? Why did you redo your IG account multiple times? Why don't you believe your teachers when they say you are being too hard on yourself? The answer is there. I don't think it's about your art at all.
Rafael has really good drawings! If I were him I would lower my expectations a little and focus more on having fun, exploring, enjoying and not caring about mistakes that much. I'd get a mentor also. He's just too desperate and that tends to turn into autosabotage. And try going to therapy and getting a new hobbie aside from drawing. Let your mind rest a little.
Nathammer i agree completely. often enough i have struggled improving. after resting. taking my mind of of it. i found myself making more progress than i ever have. i think practice is only effective if its balanced.
I often feel similar, and I often hear I'm overly critical of my work, but usually this makes me feel that if I concede and I look at my art with anything resembling pride, that is the bell tolling on my career and the first signs of death throes in anything original or personal in my art. I become a child with proud parents and a non-descript medal for participation. I'm glad to hear them say that perfectionists at least garner something from a lifetime of dissatisfaction. I suppose in my case that if it means I'm never happy but some day I'm recognized for making something worth looking at then that might be enough for me. frankly if I can paint 8 hours a day and eat 3 square meals that's actually probably enough (I'm an ambitious man). so I have no advice beyond this, just make sure you show your art to the people who need to see it, sometimes the bar can be so high you can only aspire to toil in obscurity, don't do that, and if you ever do well enough to begin gallery showings and such, hire someone to do your pr.
I could have easily written that email. The exception being that I’m not formally enrolled in a class. I’m in the university of TH-cam, as we call it…The Proko channel among others. I feel every word of this. Raphael, you are not alone. I don’t share what I create Bc I, too, criticize it until I’m disgusted with myself. I find I draw best in a quiet room w a quiet brain. AND not to compare your work to others! This is great advice. P.s. Hi, Marshall! ☺️
Please sing more, Marshall. That was everything I needed this afternoon.