Hold Them Down is one of the most conflicting sensory experiences I’ve ever had. The content is genuinely disturbing and evil, but Ayron delivers one of my favorite vocal performances in all of Epic
micos (telemachus) voice having similarities with both annas (penelope) and jays (ody) voices is such a perfect coincidence like - it was as if they were really genetically related LIKE THE VOICE CASTING!!! THE VOICE CASTING! MUAH
My roommate told me hold them down overtook Hellfire as his top villain song for both sound and disturbing dissonance while listening and I agree wholeheartedly. He was so relieved to know he died immediately
Hold Them Down is probably tied for first in terms of Villain songs. Legit gross and evil lyrics, but the melody, music, vocal, everything is just so good.
Actually, Suffering uses Penelope’s motif, but uses it in a synthetic way, to indicate it’s not really Penelope. The cello and the viola now indicates this is the real deal. Awesome analysis, as usual. Keep going!
one thing i love about penelopes singer is that she manages to show the siren and penelope as such different characters. it’s the same voice, but the siren is so much brighter, while penelope has texture and deapth thatthe siren is lacking. and she does it in a way where when u hear thesiren there is nothing wrong with it, but when u hear the true penelope the siren sounds lacking in comperason. it is sooooo goood
19:37 u can hear penelopes instrument playin the notes ody hit when screamig no when his men opened the wind bag. penelopes instrumen is screamin no during this part
just so you know it was canon the challenge in the end is actually a hard challenge cause in the odyssey Homer describes the bow as being “palintonos” which is translated as “bent or stretched backwards”.so you need a lot of strength and ability to even string it.
19:00 Nick's expression is 100% what i went through and I'd argue they did have to use the visuals they did. People are still arguing about whether or not Calypso committed SA or not. Here they're clarifying: yes everything Odysseus does to them afterwards is justified. You realize the implication is they'd do that to Telemechus too, right? I was raging for Odysseus to GET THEM NOW
Honestly Epic is one of the best handling of SA I've seen in any media. Antinous is clearly excited about it, as the audience you feel disgusted, and then the ending and Odysseus are so viscerally satisfying because there was no moral gray. It was black and white. He was vile and wanted to do vile things and there is nothing that could have followed it without making it morally gray except what happened. There's no implication Odysseus is wrong or should have offered mercy, he is fully justified and does what needs to be done. So well written.
The modern equaivalent of Odysseuss bow would be a compound recurve bow, which requires a special technique and excessive draw strength to string and use it. In The Odyssey, Penelope had already met with Odysseus in disguise before she gave the challenge. She didn't know for sure it was him, but she set the challenge only he could complete because she was sure he was *here* IN THE PALACE after all these years, but he couldn't reveal himself yet until Telemachus and the slaves had hidden the mens weapons and he could enact his plan against the men who had dined in his palace on his flocks and harassed his wife for almost 2 decades. Much of the core of the original story is about hospitality and the violation of it- if the suitors had been polite guests they would have brought gifts of sheep and cow and fine fabrics and jewelry, instead they violate the Palace by staying and eating Odysseus food and drinking his wine and just generally being incredibly rude to their hosts, Penelope and Telemachus. When Odysseus arrives to the suitors, in disguise, they insult him to his face calling him a worthless beggar, and also insult Odysseus, refering to him as the Old King or saying he's dead and gone, not knowing its him. Jorge appears to have kept much of this with the beginning of Odysseus making it clear that he was in the room with the suitors for all of Hold Them Down while Telemachus was hiding the weapons (Melanthius comments on this in Odysseus)
4:38 just something I really like to point out since many don't seem to catch it up, right after Penelope says "storm" you can hear the wing bags instrument play, not the main melody though like at the start of "six hundred strickes", I like to think is because Penelope saw the storm but knew nothing about the context, so is only the instrument and not the melody
two things, the guards would not be able to do much of anything because, while some were suborned and turned traitor against penelope, the fact remains that these suitors are nobility in ancient greece. Two, the fact that the viola string hits the same notes that Ody's "NOOOOoooooo" back in "Keep your Friends Close" to show how Antinous would see penelope's screams and rejections as music
In the original Odyssey there really weren't any guards per se. There were a few servants who could double as guards but I do mean 'a few'...the number of male servants was in the single digits (and the maids, while more numerous at 50, were noncombatants) and some of them were suborned, while there are 108 suitors. So they were outnumbered more than 10 to 1. The same is likely true here, possibly even more so.
I love Hold Them Down, it's probably one of my favorite songs in Epic. The lyrics are uncomfortable and just...eugh...but holy SHIT Ayron sings SO WELL, plus the music is great. Also, if you listen closely, you can hear Ody singing with the Suitors. He was there and heard everything they were planning.
NICK! I didn’t even catch it but you had it right when you mentioned “slay!” There are some similarities between “Hold Em Down” and the first part of “The Horse and the Infant,” the very first song of the musical. It’s the part where they’re plotting inside the horse. I think the tempo might be a tad faster here but dang . . .
I love how the score that plays when Antinous is being menacing (you can hear it in Hold Them Down and the end of Legendary) is just a milder version of Odysseus's monster theme. It really shows how Antinous is a monster but still no where near Odysseus's level.
I don't really know much music theory, but it's the monster theme without the electronics. And since Jorge has said that he uses electronic music to represent divinity/magic, I've taken it to mean that Antinous is a very human kind of monster.
Thank you! It's really amazing to see just how few people are aware that the Odyssey is basically a sequel to the Illiad, which was an adventure just as long as the Odyssey.
The line you were trying to place during "Hold him down" you had been going to the cyclops saga, but I think it's the line 'tonight we'll be the ones who slay' from 'Horse and the Infant'
Hold them down was so heavy, but in my opinion the animation does an amazing work with anthynous song, it gives that awful feeling and imho makes the listener angry. One of my fav song in all the saga, even tho I listened it with shivers and teary eyes.❤
17:33 could it be diffrent beast??? i dont know i have no idea about any music theory but my ears pick up on some similarity for some reason. would sybolically make sense too (the suitors being diffrent beasts, human monsters cause grape and all.) idk thoughhhh
Precisely, it comes from the "While you were so focused on turning my man into snacks" line, it starts same notes and progression downwards, but changes midway to another melody
Yeah unfortunately, I don't think anyone is getting monetized with this one. That being said I'm so glad you did this. Thanks for an incredible journey.
It's been a total of 20 years, 10 spent at war in Ithaca and another 10 journeying home. This puts Odysseus likely somewhere between 45-60, since we don't actually know his exact age as it's never stated specifically in the source material, but it's generally accepted he was around 25 when Helen was abducted, plus more time before the war kicked off in full swing before the 10 year siege.
One thing I ADORE and HATE about Jay’s casting choices and the way he writes music is that some of the most uncomfortable songs like this and Love in Paradise are GOOD SONGS. Like, this is art made to make you FEEL things, and those things aren’t GOOD THINGS. the only difference is that Love in Paradise is meant to be uncomfortably dissonant with it being a bop and catchy, where Hold Them Down is just… I need a shower with a pumice stone. EXCELLENT composition and EXCELLENT delivery and I LOVE the Challenge but how deeply Aryon makes me HATE his character needs to be shoved under a microscope and studied. 22:09 I know very little about music but when you pointed out that it’s an open harmony it IMMEDIATELY clicked why Jorge used that- I think an open harmony can be seen as “wanting” and for what amounts to one of the darkest “I want” songs I’ve EVER heard… when people are singing about what they “want” to feel complete… perfect sense.
I don't know if you noticed this in your listen through, but during the part in Hold Them Down where they talk about Penelope you can hear Penelope's viola screaming in the background for help. In the following songs listen out for her viola during certain moments!! Its a beautiful yet devastating thing Jorge added
lots of similarities melodically and lyrically between The Horse and The Infant (ody’s speech to inspire his men to fight the trojans) and Hold Them Down (that scumbag’s speech to inspire the other scumbag suitors to do scumbag things)
Its really funny that I got hit with an ad 2 seconds before you said " I think I'm getting demonetized. I think I won't be able to have ads on this video". If you haven't taken a listen yet, you should listen to some of the cut songs, as these first two songs both have callbacks to them. Just the title of one of them gives it away, "Man of the house", which is reprised in "The Challenge". In that draft sample, Ody sings the parts that were reframed, but in a much more upbeat manner. It's also got hints of something else I can't pinpoint. It reminds me of "Prince Ali" from Aladdin for some reason. If I understand correctly, it was one of two cut songs to show the beginnings of Ody and Penelope's relationship. In the other "I need her to be mine", it's melody uses the "Warrior of the mind" motiff, because it's Ody trying to convince Athena to be his wingman.
I love Hold them Down’s vocals and js sounding wise whole song, however once Ant. starts talking about rapping Pen. I get uncomfortable, so I just listen to the song until Ant starts talking about Pen then I skip it, that way I get the wonderful vocals and not get too uncomfortable
Something one of the animatic artists pointed out that if found *fascinating* is the cello in the beginning being a bit off key or something, when they talk about stringing the bow. They(suitors) are trying to string the bow, but cant, so they cant hold the same melody as penelope did when she issues the challenge. (Whoever can string my husbands old bow) any thoughts? Granted i know nothing about the fine tuning that is music. I just love listening to it wnd belting it out in my car.
As a suggestion for what to do next, maybe you could do Sonic the Hedgehog video game music??? Like the ones with lyrics???? I’m not much of a gamer and I don’t listen to all the music but the ones I do listen to I hear them CONSTANTLY because they’re so good! I don’t know if you’ve heard much of it or if there are good takeaways for a video, but some songs like Knight of the Wind or some Frontiers songs might be good to talk about. Thank you for reading this super long comment lol Also ITHACA SAGA LET’S GOOOOOOOOOOOOO (I love seeing how happy and giddy you were for The Challenge. Haven’t gotten to Hold Them Down yet but I just wanted to say that)
Great content, as always! Could you help me with something unrelated: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
Hold Them Down is one of the most conflicting sensory experiences I’ve ever had. The content is genuinely disturbing and evil, but Ayron delivers one of my favorite vocal performances in all of Epic
100% agree
It's viscerally upsetting, and at the same time delivered in one of the greatest vocal and musical performances.
i’m actually addicted to his voice 😭 WHY DOES THE WORST CHARACTER HAVE ONE OF THE GREATEST VOICES?
I mean you can sing along and fully enjoy it if you just replace it with the birthday version lol.
frrrrr
@@animeentranced1130I heard today is Telemachus’s birthday..
micos (telemachus) voice having similarities with both annas (penelope) and jays (ody) voices is such a perfect coincidence like - it was as if they were really genetically related LIKE THE VOICE CASTING!!! THE VOICE CASTING! MUAH
My roommate told me hold them down overtook Hellfire as his top villain song for both sound and disturbing dissonance while listening and I agree wholeheartedly. He was so relieved to know he died immediately
same for me. Antinous just sounds so smooth which makes it so much worse.
I don't think it beats hellfire but it's definitely up there.
Hold Them Down is probably tied for first in terms of Villain songs. Legit gross and evil lyrics, but the melody, music, vocal, everything is just so good.
Actually, Suffering uses Penelope’s motif, but uses it in a synthetic way, to indicate it’s not really Penelope. The cello and the viola now indicates this is the real deal. Awesome analysis, as usual. Keep going!
3:25 it's actually Penelope's motif. A wierd and distorted version of it was used in Suffering because the siren turned into her
It wasn't distorted, it was just the wrong instrument
one thing i love about penelopes singer is that she manages to show the siren and penelope as such different characters. it’s the same voice, but the siren is so much brighter, while penelope has texture and deapth thatthe siren is lacking. and she does it in a way where when u hear thesiren there is nothing wrong with it, but when u hear the true penelope the siren sounds lacking in comperason. it is sooooo goood
19:37 u can hear penelopes instrument playin the notes ody hit when screamig no when his men opened the wind bag. penelopes instrumen is screamin no during this part
And it’s music to Antinous’s Ears-
@ nope! not doing that! thank you, i hate it!
@@agent941I’m crying 😭🤣
just so you know it was canon the challenge in the end is actually a hard challenge cause in the odyssey Homer describes the bow as being “palintonos” which is translated as “bent or stretched backwards”.so you need a lot of strength and ability to even string it.
It's called a recurve bow in modern vernacular. 😃🏹
Nick: I'm gonna say the word. Whatever's about to happen is gonna be evil.
Me: Ohhhh, he's not ready.
me get ready odysseus
19:00 Nick's expression is 100% what i went through and I'd argue they did have to use the visuals they did. People are still arguing about whether or not Calypso committed SA or not. Here they're clarifying: yes everything Odysseus does to them afterwards is justified. You realize the implication is they'd do that to Telemechus too, right? I was raging for Odysseus to GET THEM NOW
The way Odysseus treats her, and the way that Jeorge talks about her make me think that she did not SA him
Also no the implication is that they would just kill and dismember Telemachus, they wouldn’t SA him
Honestly Epic is one of the best handling of SA I've seen in any media. Antinous is clearly excited about it, as the audience you feel disgusted, and then the ending and Odysseus are so viscerally satisfying because there was no moral gray. It was black and white. He was vile and wanted to do vile things and there is nothing that could have followed it without making it morally gray except what happened. There's no implication Odysseus is wrong or should have offered mercy, he is fully justified and does what needs to be done. So well written.
I don’t think it implies that they would SA Telemachus, from the animatic it’s clear they would “hold him down” until he died.
The modern equaivalent of Odysseuss bow would be a compound recurve bow, which requires a special technique and excessive draw strength to string and use it. In The Odyssey, Penelope had already met with Odysseus in disguise before she gave the challenge. She didn't know for sure it was him, but she set the challenge only he could complete because she was sure he was *here* IN THE PALACE after all these years, but he couldn't reveal himself yet until Telemachus and the slaves had hidden the mens weapons and he could enact his plan against the men who had dined in his palace on his flocks and harassed his wife for almost 2 decades.
Much of the core of the original story is about hospitality and the violation of it- if the suitors had been polite guests they would have brought gifts of sheep and cow and fine fabrics and jewelry, instead they violate the Palace by staying and eating Odysseus food and drinking his wine and just generally being incredibly rude to their hosts, Penelope and Telemachus. When Odysseus arrives to the suitors, in disguise, they insult him to his face calling him a worthless beggar, and also insult Odysseus, refering to him as the Old King or saying he's dead and gone, not knowing its him.
Jorge appears to have kept much of this with the beginning of Odysseus making it clear that he was in the room with the suitors for all of Hold Them Down while Telemachus was hiding the weapons (Melanthius comments on this in Odysseus)
I think Disney's "evil'n a jar" was accidentally dumped into this whole musical- ten years of neglect made the jar tip. This is a villian song!
This has replaced hellfire as my favorite villain song
Think Disney needs to take lessons from Jay 😂
4:38 just something I really like to point out since many don't seem to catch it up, right after Penelope says "storm" you can hear the wing bags instrument play, not the main melody though like at the start of "six hundred strickes", I like to think is because Penelope saw the storm but knew nothing about the context, so is only the instrument and not the melody
Lets also call out the violin in the background during... that scene. Penelope is SCREAMING for help.
And it's music to his ears.
Petition for Ayron to play a character I can like as a person pls
His voice is too beautiful yet I can't sing along! The contents are too horrific😭
two things, the guards would not be able to do much of anything because, while some were suborned and turned traitor against penelope, the fact remains that these suitors are nobility in ancient greece. Two, the fact that the viola string hits the same notes that Ody's "NOOOOoooooo" back in "Keep your Friends Close" to show how Antinous would see penelope's screams and rejections as music
In the original Odyssey there really weren't any guards per se. There were a few servants who could double as guards but I do mean 'a few'...the number of male servants was in the single digits (and the maids, while more numerous at 50, were noncombatants) and some of them were suborned, while there are 108 suitors. So they were outnumbered more than 10 to 1. The same is likely true here, possibly even more so.
Him: how many years has it been?....... 7...... 11 years?
Me: so like.... it actually been almost double that lol
I remember hearing hold them down and just being like AYRON ALEXANDER TONE DOWN THE BEAUTY IN YOUR VOICE IM TRYING TO HATE YOUR CHARACTER
I love Hold Them Down, it's probably one of my favorite songs in Epic. The lyrics are uncomfortable and just...eugh...but holy SHIT Ayron sings SO WELL, plus the music is great. Also, if you listen closely, you can hear Ody singing with the Suitors. He was there and heard everything they were planning.
The way the singer seems to almost tease and play with notes is wild, the way he sings around and arrives scratches at my brain.
NICK! I didn’t even catch it but you had it right when you mentioned “slay!” There are some similarities between “Hold Em Down” and the first part of “The Horse and the Infant,” the very first song of the musical. It’s the part where they’re plotting inside the horse. I think the tempo might be a tad faster here but dang . . .
17:00 I think you're thinking of the line in Polyphemus. "There's been a misunderstanding..." "I heard he's on a diplomatic..."
I love how the score that plays when Antinous is being menacing (you can hear it in Hold Them Down and the end of Legendary) is just a milder version of Odysseus's monster theme. It really shows how Antinous is a monster but still no where near Odysseus's level.
I don't really know much music theory, but it's the monster theme without the electronics. And since Jorge has said that he uses electronic music to represent divinity/magic, I've taken it to mean that Antinous is a very human kind of monster.
I was waiting (no pun intended), for your reaction.
Hold Them Down is rough.... The lyrics are rough but the vocals are killer
its been 20 years, the trojan war was 10 years long
Thank you! It's really amazing to see just how few people are aware that the Odyssey is basically a sequel to the Illiad, which was an adventure just as long as the Odyssey.
@@Goomsies And the Iliad was during the last year of the ten years of war with the Trojans.
@@etspaulding its during the 9th year (so second last) I think but yeah
Hold 'Em Down is such a dichotomy.. the music and singing is soooooo good, but the lyrics-- ooosh nope no
The line you were trying to place during "Hold him down" you had been going to the cyclops saga, but I think it's the line 'tonight we'll be the ones who slay' from 'Horse and the Infant'
Hold them down was so heavy, but in my opinion the animation does an amazing work with anthynous song, it gives that awful feeling and imho makes the listener angry. One of my fav song in all the saga, even tho I listened it with shivers and teary eyes.❤
I never heard the parallel between “Hold them Down” and “The Horse and the Infant” before.
17:33 could it be diffrent beast??? i dont know i have no idea about any music theory but my ears pick up on some similarity for some reason. would sybolically make sense too (the suitors being diffrent beasts, human monsters cause grape and all.) idk thoughhhh
Precisely, it comes from the "While you were so focused on turning my man into snacks" line, it starts same notes and progression downwards, but changes midway to another melody
i definitely feel you pain i feel like i missed like half the motifs in this saga
I missed ALL the motifs in the musical and I’m literally in the honor band at school 😭
Yeah unfortunately, I don't think anyone is getting monetized with this one. That being said I'm so glad you did this. Thanks for an incredible journey.
I love your reacts. To learn about the musical theory behind it is very interesting.
Best of luck with your musical. I love that story!
17:29 I think it might be No longer you when he says “I see your wife with a man who is haunting”
Nah, that's talking about Odysseus himself...he's haunting because he's 'come back from the dead' and is also 'a man with a trail of bodies'.
It's been a total of 20 years, 10 spent at war in Ithaca and another 10 journeying home. This puts Odysseus likely somewhere between 45-60, since we don't actually know his exact age as it's never stated specifically in the source material, but it's generally accepted he was around 25 when Helen was abducted, plus more time before the war kicked off in full swing before the 10 year siege.
I wanna hear Ayron as Aarron Burr
I wanna hear his version of Hellfire. He'd make an insane Frollo. Also "Friends On The Other Side" by Baron Samedi.
I just know he'd eat up The Room Where It Happens 💯💯
One thing I ADORE and HATE about Jay’s casting choices and the way he writes music is that some of the most uncomfortable songs like this and Love in Paradise are GOOD SONGS.
Like, this is art made to make you FEEL things, and those things aren’t GOOD THINGS. the only difference is that Love in Paradise is meant to be uncomfortably dissonant with it being a bop and catchy, where Hold Them Down is just… I need a shower with a pumice stone.
EXCELLENT composition and EXCELLENT delivery and I LOVE the Challenge but how deeply Aryon makes me HATE his character needs to be shoved under a microscope and studied.
22:09 I know very little about music but when you pointed out that it’s an open harmony it IMMEDIATELY clicked why Jorge used that- I think an open harmony can be seen as “wanting” and for what amounts to one of the darkest “I want” songs I’ve EVER heard… when people are singing about what they “want” to feel complete… perfect sense.
7:18 did this sound like the cut song Olive Tree to anyone else? Been a while since I’ve heard it but it feels similar
your reactions are really fun to watch, i learn a ton of new and interesting stuff about music every time too 💙
I don't know if you noticed this in your listen through, but during the part in Hold Them Down where they talk about Penelope you can hear Penelope's viola screaming in the background for help. In the following songs listen out for her viola during certain moments!! Its a beautiful yet devastating thing Jorge added
Yay! Caught up! Looking forward to the Odysseus video! Thanks for the reaction!
lots of similarities melodically and lyrically between The Horse and The Infant (ody’s speech to inspire his men to fight the trojans) and Hold Them Down (that scumbag’s speech to inspire the other scumbag suitors to do scumbag things)
The cello at the begining of "Hold them down" sounds wrong. I think it's because the suitors can't string it properly
We have the "Villan" note, and now the "planning motif" in hold them down.
Its really funny that I got hit with an ad 2 seconds before you said " I think I'm getting demonetized. I think I won't be able to have ads on this video".
If you haven't taken a listen yet, you should listen to some of the cut songs, as these first two songs both have callbacks to them. Just the title of one of them gives it away, "Man of the house", which is reprised in "The Challenge". In that draft sample, Ody sings the parts that were reframed, but in a much more upbeat manner. It's also got hints of something else I can't pinpoint. It reminds me of "Prince Ali" from Aladdin for some reason.
If I understand correctly, it was one of two cut songs to show the beginnings of Ody and Penelope's relationship. In the other "I need her to be mine", it's melody uses the "Warrior of the mind" motiff, because it's Ody trying to convince Athena to be his wingman.
Ody was gone for 20 years
Geee it's almost as if a Villain should be absolutely VILE. Anything less than that and they are just a Antagonist.
The vocals: amazing
Lyrics: oh- 💀
I love Hold them Down’s vocals and js sounding wise whole song, however once Ant. starts talking about rapping Pen. I get uncomfortable, so I just listen to the song until Ant starts talking about Pen then I skip it, that way I get the wonderful vocals and not get too uncomfortable
Have you seen the parody version of this song? It's a lot of fun!
Something one of the animatic artists pointed out that if found *fascinating* is the cello in the beginning being a bit off key or something, when they talk about stringing the bow. They(suitors) are trying to string the bow, but cant, so they cant hold the same melody as penelope did when she issues the challenge. (Whoever can string my husbands old bow) any thoughts? Granted i know nothing about the fine tuning that is music. I just love listening to it wnd belting it out in my car.
*Horrified shock
Yep. The correct answer.
I think it's actually Little wolf
Just so you know,you did not link the correct stream.
Also, love your reaction
You mean the cyclops saga
As a suggestion for what to do next, maybe you could do Sonic the Hedgehog video game music??? Like the ones with lyrics???? I’m not much of a gamer and I don’t listen to all the music but the ones I do listen to I hear them CONSTANTLY because they’re so good! I don’t know if you’ve heard much of it or if there are good takeaways for a video, but some songs like Knight of the Wind or some Frontiers songs might be good to talk about.
Thank you for reading this super long comment lol
Also ITHACA SAGA LET’S GOOOOOOOOOOOOO (I love seeing how happy and giddy you were for The Challenge. Haven’t gotten to Hold Them Down yet but I just wanted to say that)
It's a love-hate situation. Love the voice of Antinious, but hate the character!
You are so cute. Love the faces you make ❤
Great content, as always! Could you help me with something unrelated: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
Why are you asking here?
Yep, shooting through the axes was canon.