That should be book #1 to read to see the false foundations of Calvinism AND expose the lies of Calvinists who claim the early church fathers before Augustine preached Calvinism. The only ones preaching "calvinism" was the pagan determinists in the various Gnostic cults.
Calvinist believe that God doesn’t save anyone only a few people and they say that John 3:16 is not right my Bible says that he doesn’t want anyone to perish
Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea, little Johnny, if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved. We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your future sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn’t elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you. Take comfort knowing that we are not like God. We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won’t be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won’t be because of anything we did. So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God? So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you. Please, we ask, don’t let it bother you-if you find yourself in hell-that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases. My dear beloved Calvinist, will you teach that to your children or grandchildren? I suspect that your answer will be “never.” But why not? Why would you ever hide the wonderful “doctrines of grace,” the “Bible truth,” from your own children or grandchildren? TRUTH IN LOVE
I was making a comment addressing John 3 v 16 within the context of what this video is discussing IE Calvinism and Arminianism . The Arminian often states that this verse refutes Calvinist theology . I would encourage you to watch the following Utube video (which lasts less than 14 minutes duration ).It is titled ' John 3-16 .mp4 ' .
I UNDERSTAND WHAT VERSE YOU HAD REFERENCE TO - I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU TWISTED (BUTCHERED) THE GREEK, OBVIOUSLY TO SUIT YOUR PURPOSE. I DIDN'T ASK YOU TO REFER ME TO A VIDEO, OR A COURSE IN CAL. VS ARM. 101, I SIMPLY ASK YOU WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE - COULD I GET A SIMPLE ANSWER FROM YOU THIS TIME, THANKS.
Why should I even feel in anyway obliged to expound upon my straightforward answer to your original query since you have wrongly accused me of twisting scripture ? I gave you an easy to understand explanation but all you have done is to bare false witness against me and be totally unappreciative of my encouragement to you to view the video that I brought to your attention .What exactly are your motives in your persistent questioning ; most folk can easily understand what I have written .
Ok let’s sum it up: “Jesus Christ went on the cross bit his fingers nails and said ‘I hope everyone comes to me’” -i.e.he looked through the corridor of time and wasn’t sure of the difference b/t the sheep or the goats. Hmmm...sounds thoroughly orthodox especially in light of Spurgeon’s theology 🤔 (sarcasm)
There have been millions of pages written on this argument, i understand it this way, Jesus called all men to himself knowing all that the father gave to him would ultimately come....did it matter if he knew them already? i don't think so. like Spurgeon said "I would preach to only the elect but unless they had elect printed on their t-shirts how would I know who the elect where, so he preached to everyone. my only difficulty is when Jesus says it is his wish that none would perish, that is hard to argue. but ultimately reformed theology is miles ahead in understanding the gospel. i don't have to fully understand all the mysteries of the Godhead to say that. did God ask anyone's opinion or plead with them at any stage to do his will, Who are you "man" to talk back to God..
I clearly did answer your question but you seem to be intent on being argumentative .You like badgering others but you yourself play your cards close to your chest , seeking to put others on the back foot by the tactic of questioning them so that you avoid revealing too much about yourself .If you watched the video that I mentioned you would see that it explains in greater detail the main thrust of the point that I had made . Goodbye
I REALLY DON'T GET THE POINT OF YOUR POST. BUT I DO KNOW THAT THE ENGLISH WORD HERE, "WHOSOEVER" WAS TRANSLATED FROM THE GREEK WORD "PAS" - MEANING, THE WHOLE, ALL, A PART OF THE WHOLE, ETC.. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
I believe God is sovereign but not necessarily that He is in control. He made salvation available to everyone-His sovereignty but we are in control to accept or reject His free gift.
16 “For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Jesus died for everyone and whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. He did select certain people. But because Calvinist want to follow a man named John Calvin instead of God they will say that world doesn't mean world and whover doesn't mean whoever.
Cecilia, John 3:16 is certainly a wonderful verse, but many times it is used to actually refute doctrines that are taught elsewhere in scripture. This is dangerous because one verse doesn’t negate the truth of other verses that teach that truth. Here are a few problems with your post (not trying to be combative, but I hope, informative). First, you come to the conclusion that Christ died for everyone based on John 3:16, yet only those that believe have eternal life. This now leaves eternal life up to the sinful person because if Christ died for everyone, then everyone would be saved. Either Christ saying “It is finished” in John 19:30 means that salvation has been accomplished from His death on the cross or it only means salvation is only possible through the belief of man, which means it isn’t totally finished until man decides. That contradicts the fact that God chose people unto salvation, yet salvation is only possible by the choice of man. This means God’s choice is based on man’s choice, which means God’s purposes and will is dependent upon sinful man. Yet Ephesians 1:4-5 (and even further) doesn’t say that. Second, the accusation that Calvinists follow Calvin (instead of God) is unfounded. If this were true, everything Calvin wrote would be placed above the Bible. You mistakenly think because a buzz-word for the doctrines of grace (Calvinism or reformed theology) means that the person is following a man above God. While there could be some that do, to make that blanket statement now shows a faulty presupposition without you talking to every single Calvinist in the world to come to that conclusion. Many that hold to these doctrines study diligently (2 Timothy 2:15) and make the sufficient scriptures their guide (2 Timothy 3:16-17). If the whole counsel of God lines up with anything Calvin taught, we should accept it because it is in the Bible. If it doesn’t line up with anything Calvin taught, then we should discard it. And since there are many Bible verses that are involved here, to make that accusation after quoting one verse isn’t prudent. Third, to assume anyone reformed doesn’t think world means world or whoever means whoever, is more so based on your prejudice than fact. John 3:16 does say world, but based on your definition of world, it means everyone that has ever lived. This is universalism because if Christ died for everyone, everyone would be saved. Yet we know many go to hell (Revelation 20:11-15). The most common translation of world in the Greek is kosmos, which means orderly arrangement, decoration, or world (either in a wide or narrow sense). The definition of this word is based on the context and content of the sentence. You can’t use world to mean everyone unless the context demands it. For example, it would be like the word “back.” I could say, “I went back ten feet to my sofa to lie on my back to think back to the time I closed the back door.” Do you notice “back” has four different applications in this sentence as a verb, adjective, etc? In the same respect, the word world has different meanings in the scripture. In John 15:18 and 1 John 3:13 it speaks of those unsaved in the world. In John 17:9, Jesus says He doesn’t pray for the world, meaning again those that are unsaved. In Romans 12:1-2, the word world (a different Greek word, by the way), means the age we are living in. In 1 John 2:15-17, it is talking about the system of the world (again, unsaved). In Luke 2:1, world means the known world under the Roman government (those that were to be taxed). In John 12:19, it is an expression that most of the people that heard Jesus in His earthly ministry was following after Him (and this was to those lost in Israel mainly). Notice that the word world means different things in the context of these verses. So reformed people take the word world and define it by its context. In John 3:16, it means all types of people without distinction (Jews and Gentiles), not every single person that ever lived. Fourth, whosoever in John 3:16 means those that believe or the believing ones. No problem with this, but the verses doesn’t tell you how the person believes. Because we’ve been taught based on your definition, we think any verse that says “whosoever” or “choose” or “believe” means they have the free will to do so. No, that is something that is inferred, not stated. That is fine, unless there are declarative verses in the Bible that show man is unable to choose in their sin nature. The description of sin in Romans 3:10-18, 8:5-8, Ephesians 2:1-3, Jeremiah 17:9, and 1 Corinthians 2:14 not only indicate the inability of man, but Jesus’ own words in John 6:37-44 blatantly says no man can come to Him unless they are drawn by the Father. Jesus also said mankind is a slave to their sin nature unless He sets them free (John 8:34-36). And Jesus also says that salvation is impossible with man (Mark 10:27). Even us being born again is not by our will (John 1:13). I know John 3:16 is the most well-known verse for believers, but we don’t negate, ignore, or misinterpret other verses because we want to make this one verse the whole of theology concerning the attributes of God, the sinfulness of man, and the truth of all scripture. I hope this clarifies a few things and helps.
Then why didn't you respect my " Goodbye" ? You again persist in your prying questioning ,again without letting any of us know anything about your own beliefs .People should avoid you , you are very quick to accuse me of telling lies when I have done no such thing .You seem to be a nasty individual .I believe in God's sovereignty and the biblical teaching that man's wills are in bondage to sin unless and until God alone graciously frees man from his bondage and gives man a heart that loves God .
Agape love first thinks about others and not oneself. That is why He sent Jesus to die and become a ransom for all that would receive Him. God is a God of love. Read first Corinthians 13 to see how agape love responds.
Nobody disputes God is Love (agape) because you cannot argue with the truth. However, God is also more than love - he is wrath as well and just, truth, etc. What are people saved from? We are saved from the wrath of God (and rightly so because all have sinned against God). God loves what is right and true even if that truth is you have denied him and choose condemnation, therefore an atonement must be levied upon the transgressions (sins) committed by the non-believer of Christ. Christ died on the tree for his church (body of believers in Christ)...not children of the devil (non-believers). I also believe these topics are secondary to actual Salvation in Christ...did the thief on the cross understand any of this? No is the short answer, but what he did was believed in Christ (his holiness and power) and asked Christ to remember him. What did Jesus say? You will be with me today in paradise.
"Dr, Dr, Dr." The truth is God loves everyone and desires all men to be saved! Election does not pertain to salvation but refers exclusively to Judeans: i.e. Hebrews, Israel. There is not a single clear contextual scripture calling Gentiles Judeans. Calvinism will poison the Baptist denomination and it will become dead as the reformed/catholic taking the focus off the finished work of Christ and onto works: i.e. 'perseverance of the saints.'
"MOST FOLKS" HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IN THE WORLD YOU MEANT! I HAVE NOT WRONGLY ACCUSED YOU, BUT IT IS YOU WHO LIED ON ME, ALL I SAID WAS: "I UNDERSTAND WHAT VERSE YOU HAD REFERENCE TO - I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU TWISTED (BUTCHERED) THE GREEK, OBVIOUSLY TO SUIT YOUR PURPOSE." - YOU ACTUALLY DID THAT, SO DON'T COME UNCLUED ON ME FOR YOUR DISINGENUOUS DEFINITION OF GREEK WORDS. ALL I ASK WAS: "WHAT IS YOUR POINT?" - THIS QUESTION YOU NEVER ANSWERED!
![The Pastor-Worship Leader Relationship [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/St4Jdca9m9I/mqdefault.jpg)
Read Ken Wilson's book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism", if you want to understand the history of the doctrine?
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That should be book #1 to read to see the false foundations of Calvinism AND expose the lies of Calvinists who claim the early church fathers before Augustine preached Calvinism. The only ones preaching "calvinism" was the pagan determinists in the various Gnostic cults.
The Blind leading the Blind!
It all comes down to free-will-Best explained in the clearest book on
this topic!-"Where Calvinism goes wrong!" by Brother Robert
John 3 v 16 the "whosoever" translates as " believing ones" or "those who are believing " in the original Greek .
Saaad Mutual Admiration Society !!
Calvinist believe that God doesn’t save anyone only a few people and they say that John 3:16 is not right my Bible says that he doesn’t want anyone to perish
Jesus not wanting anyone to perish and the people choosing their father the devil aren't in opposition...are they?
Little Johnny, God has predestined the minority of people to be saved and go to heaven forever, and He has predestined the majority of people to be eternally damned and burn in the fires of hell. We have no idea, little Johnny, if God has predestined you to be forever damned or forever saved.
We love you, little Johnny, but we accept the fact that God might not love you, and that He may have plans to send you to hell for your future sins. If you do find yourself one day burning in hell because He hasn’t elected to save you, just remember that we will always love you, even if God hates you.
Take comfort knowing that we are not like God.
We will be in heaven forever only because we were unconditionally chosen for salvation before we were born. That would be the only reason that we won’t be in hell with you if you find yourself there. It won’t be because of anything we did.
So also take comfort in knowing that. It may not seem fair, but who are we to judge God?
So again, if you find yourself in hell, remember that we will always love you as we forever worship the God who loved us but who hated you, the God who sent His Son to die for us but not for you.
Please, we ask, don’t let it bother you-if you find yourself in hell-that we love the God who hated you and showed you no mercy. We must accept the fact that God is sovereign, and He does what He pleases.
My dear beloved Calvinist, will you teach that to your children or grandchildren?
I suspect that your answer will be “never.” But why not?
Why would you ever hide the wonderful “doctrines of grace,” the “Bible truth,” from your own children or grandchildren?
TRUTH IN LOVE
This is one, big and fat emotion argument. Don’t even care about Biblical exegesis?
Did the people who attended this conference go by their own free will or were they made willing?
I was making a comment addressing John 3 v 16 within the context of what this video is discussing IE Calvinism and Arminianism . The Arminian often states that this verse refutes Calvinist theology . I would encourage you to watch the following Utube video (which lasts less than 14 minutes duration ).It is titled ' John 3-16 .mp4 ' .
I UNDERSTAND WHAT VERSE YOU HAD REFERENCE TO - I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU TWISTED (BUTCHERED) THE GREEK, OBVIOUSLY TO SUIT YOUR PURPOSE.
I DIDN'T ASK YOU TO REFER ME TO A VIDEO, OR A COURSE IN CAL. VS ARM. 101, I SIMPLY ASK YOU WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE - COULD I GET A SIMPLE ANSWER FROM YOU THIS TIME, THANKS.
Why should I even feel in anyway obliged to expound upon my straightforward answer to your original query since you have wrongly accused me of twisting scripture ? I gave you an easy to understand explanation but all you have done is to bare false witness against me and be totally unappreciative of my encouragement to you to view the video that I brought to your attention .What exactly are your motives in your persistent questioning ; most folk can easily understand what I have written .
Ok let’s sum it up: “Jesus Christ went on the cross bit his fingers nails and said ‘I hope everyone comes to me’” -i.e.he looked through the corridor of time and wasn’t sure of the difference b/t the sheep or the goats. Hmmm...sounds thoroughly orthodox especially in light of Spurgeon’s theology 🤔 (sarcasm)
There have been millions of pages written on this argument, i understand it this way, Jesus called all men to himself knowing all that the father gave to him would ultimately come....did it matter if he knew them already? i don't think so. like Spurgeon said "I would preach to only the elect but unless they had elect printed on their t-shirts how would I know who the elect where, so he preached to everyone. my only difficulty is when Jesus says it is his wish that none would perish, that is hard to argue. but ultimately reformed theology is miles ahead in understanding the gospel. i don't have to fully understand all the mysteries of the Godhead to say that. did God ask anyone's opinion or plead with them at any stage to do his will, Who are you "man" to talk back to God..
I clearly did answer your question but you seem to be intent on being argumentative .You like badgering others but you yourself play your cards close to your chest , seeking to put others on the back foot by the tactic of questioning them so that you avoid revealing too much about yourself .If you watched the video that I mentioned you would see that it explains in greater detail the main thrust of the point that I had made . Goodbye
I REALLY DON'T GET THE POINT OF YOUR POST.
BUT I DO KNOW THAT THE ENGLISH WORD HERE, "WHOSOEVER" WAS TRANSLATED FROM THE GREEK WORD "PAS" - MEANING, THE WHOLE, ALL, A PART OF THE WHOLE, ETC..
WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
I believe God is sovereign but not necessarily that He is in control. He made salvation available to everyone-His sovereignty but we are in control to accept or reject His free gift.
Jim Buford ummm not hardly.. God has chosen before the foundation of the world! Mankind can't reject the will of God! Read Romans 8&9kjv x10!
16 “For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus died for everyone and whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. He did select certain people. But because Calvinist want to follow a man named John Calvin instead of God they will say that world doesn't mean world and whover doesn't mean whoever.
Cecilia, John 3:16 is certainly a wonderful verse, but many times it is used to actually refute doctrines that are taught elsewhere in scripture. This is dangerous because one verse doesn’t negate the truth of other verses that teach that truth. Here are a few problems with your post (not trying to be combative, but I hope, informative).
First, you come to the conclusion that Christ died for everyone based on John 3:16, yet only those that believe have eternal life. This now leaves eternal life up to the sinful person because if Christ died for everyone, then everyone would be saved. Either Christ saying “It is finished” in John 19:30 means that salvation has been accomplished from His death on the cross or it only means salvation is only possible through the belief of man, which means it isn’t totally finished until man decides. That contradicts the fact that God chose people unto salvation, yet salvation is only possible by the choice of man. This means God’s choice is based on man’s choice, which means God’s purposes and will is dependent upon sinful man. Yet Ephesians 1:4-5 (and even further) doesn’t say that.
Second, the accusation that Calvinists follow Calvin (instead of God) is unfounded. If this were true, everything Calvin wrote would be placed above the Bible. You mistakenly think because a buzz-word for the doctrines of grace (Calvinism or reformed theology) means that the person is following a man above God. While there could be some that do, to make that blanket statement now shows a faulty presupposition without you talking to every single Calvinist in the world to come to that conclusion. Many that hold to these doctrines study diligently (2 Timothy 2:15) and make the sufficient scriptures their guide (2 Timothy 3:16-17). If the whole counsel of God lines up with anything Calvin taught, we should accept it because it is in the Bible. If it doesn’t line up with anything Calvin taught, then we should discard it. And since there are many Bible verses that are involved here, to make that accusation after quoting one verse isn’t prudent.
Third, to assume anyone reformed doesn’t think world means world or whoever means whoever, is more so based on your prejudice than fact. John 3:16 does say world, but based on your definition of world, it means everyone that has ever lived. This is universalism because if Christ died for everyone, everyone would be saved. Yet we know many go to hell (Revelation 20:11-15). The most common translation of world in the Greek is kosmos, which means orderly arrangement, decoration, or world (either in a wide or narrow sense). The definition of this word is based on the context and content of the sentence. You can’t use world to mean everyone unless the context demands it. For example, it would be like the word “back.” I could say, “I went back ten feet to my sofa to lie on my back to think back to the time I closed the back door.” Do you notice “back” has four different applications in this sentence as a verb, adjective, etc? In the same respect, the word world has different meanings in the scripture. In John 15:18 and 1 John 3:13 it speaks of those unsaved in the world. In John 17:9, Jesus says He doesn’t pray for the world, meaning again those that are unsaved. In Romans 12:1-2, the word world (a different Greek word, by the way), means the age we are living in. In 1 John 2:15-17, it is talking about the system of the world (again, unsaved). In Luke 2:1, world means the known world under the Roman government (those that were to be taxed). In John 12:19, it is an expression that most of the people that heard Jesus in His earthly ministry was following after Him (and this was to those lost in Israel mainly). Notice that the word world means different things in the context of these verses. So reformed people take the word world and define it by its context. In John 3:16, it means all types of people without distinction (Jews and Gentiles), not every single person that ever lived.
Fourth, whosoever in John 3:16 means those that believe or the believing ones. No problem with this, but the verses doesn’t tell you how the person believes. Because we’ve been taught based on your definition, we think any verse that says “whosoever” or “choose” or “believe” means they have the free will to do so. No, that is something that is inferred, not stated. That is fine, unless there are declarative verses in the Bible that show man is unable to choose in their sin nature. The description of sin in Romans 3:10-18, 8:5-8, Ephesians 2:1-3, Jeremiah 17:9, and 1 Corinthians 2:14 not only indicate the inability of man, but Jesus’ own words in John 6:37-44 blatantly says no man can come to Him unless they are drawn by the Father. Jesus also said mankind is a slave to their sin nature unless He sets them free (John 8:34-36). And Jesus also says that salvation is impossible with man (Mark 10:27). Even us being born again is not by our will (John 1:13). I know John 3:16 is the most well-known verse for believers, but we don’t negate, ignore, or misinterpret other verses because we want to make this one verse the whole of theology concerning the attributes of God, the sinfulness of man, and the truth of all scripture. I hope this clarifies a few things and helps.
@@ceciliaramos2280 whosoever is not in the Greek.
Then why didn't you respect my " Goodbye" ? You again persist in your prying questioning ,again without letting any of us know anything about your own beliefs .People should avoid you , you are very quick to accuse me of telling lies when I have done no such thing .You seem to be a nasty individual .I believe in God's sovereignty and the biblical teaching that man's wills are in bondage to sin unless and until God alone graciously frees man from his bondage and gives man a heart that loves God .
Agape love first thinks about others and not oneself. That is why He sent Jesus to die and become a ransom for all that would receive Him. God is a God of love. Read first Corinthians 13 to see how agape love responds.
Easier said then done but a good goal. Corinthians has it all. Why and how. Gallations and Romans the meat.
Easier read then done but a good goal.
Nobody disputes God is Love (agape) because you cannot argue with the truth. However, God is also more than love - he is wrath as well and just, truth, etc. What are people saved from? We are saved from the wrath of God (and rightly so because all have sinned against God). God loves what is right and true even if that truth is you have denied him and choose condemnation, therefore an atonement must be levied upon the transgressions (sins) committed by the non-believer of Christ. Christ died on the tree for his church (body of believers in Christ)...not children of the devil (non-believers). I also believe these topics are secondary to actual Salvation in Christ...did the thief on the cross understand any of this? No is the short answer, but what he did was believed in Christ (his holiness and power) and asked Christ to remember him. What did Jesus say? You will be with me today in paradise.
I am surprised at the biblical ignorance of this panel
"Dr, Dr, Dr." The truth is God loves everyone and desires all men to be saved! Election does not pertain to salvation but refers exclusively to Judeans: i.e. Hebrews, Israel. There is not a single clear contextual scripture calling Gentiles Judeans. Calvinism will poison the Baptist denomination and it will become dead as the reformed/catholic taking the focus off the finished work of Christ and onto works: i.e. 'perseverance of the saints.'
"MOST FOLKS" HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IN THE WORLD YOU MEANT!
I HAVE NOT WRONGLY ACCUSED YOU, BUT IT IS YOU WHO LIED ON ME, ALL I SAID WAS: "I UNDERSTAND WHAT VERSE YOU HAD REFERENCE TO - I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU TWISTED (BUTCHERED) THE GREEK, OBVIOUSLY TO SUIT YOUR PURPOSE." - YOU ACTUALLY DID THAT, SO DON'T COME UNCLUED ON ME FOR YOUR DISINGENUOUS DEFINITION OF GREEK WORDS.
ALL I ASK WAS: "WHAT IS YOUR POINT?" - THIS QUESTION YOU NEVER ANSWERED!