Is this a Blue Water Sail Boat? Ep. 160 - Lady K Sailing
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Is this a blue water sailboat? Would you? CS 36 Canadian Sailcraft
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my grand father bob mueller had one of these in the 80s/90s based out of charlevoix and detroit michigan with bay view yacht club. He was harbor master for bay city to mac and raced he also sailed the boat all over. He would tell you it can cross the atlantic. Sure you aren’t interested but he can tell you all about it. Started sailing when was kid in the 40s with a dingy and a bed sheet. He also had a constellation 44 which was a ted brewer design. My grandpa absolutely loved the cs 36.
Great video, but then I’m a bit biased having bought a CS36T full keel last year. We are loving it so far and would love to take it south (from Canada) one day. Hopefully the deeper keel won’t be too much of a hindrance.
One thing that’s a bit confusing in your video is that you say you’d definitely take a traditional over a Merlin but then you immediately show several pictures of the interior of a Merlin. You also show a picture of a boat with a walk through transom and describe an aft cabin with a door, neither of which are on the traditional. Some prospective buyers are going to be disappointed when they go to look at a traditional and find these features aren’t there.
Hi I just finished the video regarding the CS 36T. Thank you for your review. I have owned the traditional for many years and would not hesitate to sail it around the world. Raymond Wall was an excellent boat designer who previously worked for Camper and Nicholson. Were some of the interior photos from the Merlin? Also the tankage you reported was in Imperial gallons, you probably should have also noted that the freshwater is 100 US gallons and diesel is 40. Thanks again and keep up the great work.
The CS36T was one of three designs by Raymond Wall for CS Yachts. They were designed to CS requirements.
The CS30, Merlin, CS 34 ,CS40 and the 44 were Castro designs .The CS51 was a German Frers design built in Brazil. The Wall boats were specific to CS.
When CS set out the requirements for the 36T, 33 and 44 I was a participant in those pre design meetings.The 44 meetings were for interior only. I crewed on the 36T for sail testing.The design brief for the 36T was for a RACER / cruiser. There was discussion at one meeting as to whether the 36T rig would be single spreader or taller double spreader. Since racing ability was a requirement and that the average wind speed on Lake Ontario, summer time, was 8kts then it would be double spreader.
There were a number of design changes to the 36T. including both shoal and deep keels. There was a rig change from Proctor mast to Isomat. There was the change from Westerbeke 30 diesel, a BMC / Leyland diesel to a Westerbeke 33, aMitsubishi diesel. Near the end of the production run there may have been a couple of Volvo installs. At that time CS produced a few, maybe two or three, aft cabin 36T’s. These can be identified by the fixed port light in the starboard aft quarter. CS also produced three,possibly four, cutter rigged 36 T’s.
The W30 boats were equipped with Paragon P21 hydraulic transmissions and Walter V-drives not Velvet drives.
The 36T was never Lloyds approved. It may have been designed with those requirements in mind but that doesn’t mean it was built that way. For example, Lloyds would not have accepted the gatevalves in lieu of seacocks. The dealers in Europe, and possibly Lloyd’s, wouldn’t accept plastic portlights. The boats shipped to Europe were fitted with Gebo fixed portlights , as used by Camper & Nicholson. There are about five boats in N.America with those portlights. They are metal framed with safety glass lenses.The 36T was also designed with a breakaway rudder which would allow for steering with the top portion of the blade remaining intact. A secondary feature of this design was to allow the rudder to sever without causing severe hull damage.
Thanks for this information. Very helpful. We have a CS 36 1980. She is cutter rig and has the portholes you mention. She is located on Lake Huron Ontario.
Interesting review of CS36 (full disclosure: I own one, 1988 vintage traditional). Your comments about how solid it is are correct, as it is over built (mast, rigging, steering, to name a few aspects) and thus very much deserves this accolade. It is also (thanks to Ray Wall’s background in the UK) designed to Lloyds offshore standards, which makes it very much a safe blue water boat. I would far and away take the 36T offshore / across the ocean than most similar sized boats of newer vintage (and many have cruised them around the world).
My parents sailed a CS36 Merlin from Toronto - all through the Bahamas for 2 years in the late eighties with no complaints.
Thanks for the interesting and accurate piece on the CS 36 and Canadian Sailcraft. As someone who worked there from when they started building the popular CS 22 until the company folded I can vouch for the quality of construction. The CS 33 and 36 were sometimes criticized for being "overbuilt", that was down to Ray Wall, who was a senior designer at Camper and Nicholson in England. I have sailed a 36 from Florida to the Bahamas in not ideal conditions and had lots of faith in it.
I will subscribe and follow your channel with interest.
Awesome, Don! Please inform me if you can, more about CS. I just bought a ‘72 CS22
If you are game to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a 36ft sailboat, there is no reason you couldn't do it in a CS36. I just bought one and took it from the Bronx, NY to the Chesapeake. That was not a test. Motored the whole way. It was a delivery not a cruise. It was a bumpy ride in the Atlantic Ocean. But I have been over the specs for my "new" 1983 CS36. While I would have preferred to have a little more skeg on the rudder... In my market you take what's available. I got the 6'2" draft. So I know that's going to be somewhat limiting in the Caribbean, where I intend to go eventually. One of the most highly regarded sailboats is a Swan. The Swans similar to the CS36 have bolted on keels. Basically the same bolt pattern and and bolt size as the CS36. As for speed, my very first sail in Long Island Sound on a beautiful fall day, with a very inexperienced skipper (me), I put the Genoa out in a light breeze and hit 6 knots no problem.
CS vs swan in speed and the CS wins...
Heck yeah id take a CS 36 anywhere in the world.. yes its a blue water capable vessel!
Reminds me of our 36 cal. Quite similar.
I like the Prout cats, Morgan's, Taking my Macgregor 25 to the Bahamas this winter.
Thanks very informative. We went from a c&c 29 mkii to just recently a pristine CS 36 traditional cutter 1980. Really enjoying the space and heavier ballast for a smoother ride. The shallow bilge is a bit of a concern..but I keep an eye on it. We do not have an aft cabin with a door..that must be specifically for the Merlin. Would I take it from Lake Huron to Bahamas..... most definitely. Across the Atlantic probably not.
Thanks to your elf helper :)
I lived and sailed in vancouver BC in the 80's and 90's , remember seeing a few cs 36's around .we used to charter catalina 36,and 30 plus a beautiful Maple Leaf 45 centercockipt sloop , a friends alberg 37 was one of my favorites .(i had a Rawson 26 ,mast head rig ,ss rod rigging big genoa and spinnaker ,go like a scalded cat ,very tender boat ,oh the stories . back in home newfoundland now ,saltwater in my veins ,got my grandfathers sextant (1800 vintage,he was a skipper at 22 yo on a 120 ft schooner 1920 ) I really enjoy your videos
Nice to see options that are more affordable 👏👍✌️
Hi thanks for your comments. I have a Cavalier 45, a New Zealand boat. Love a review from you 🙏🏻
Yes I would love to hear about the Dockrell 27 or Hurley 27 ⛵
The Dockrells keel has some really neat features that would be great to learn more about.
I found a nice one that the previous owner replaced the crappy plastic port holes with nice metal ones...the westerbeke was tired though. Other than that it seemed to be a rather dark cabin, but I could definitely tell the boat is sturdy.
Thank you as always for your videos I and hopefully others would still be interested in a profile of Tartan Yachts
Good review of a great 36 footer. You are so right on preferring the Classic (standard model) over the Merlin. Back in the day I worked for Bimini Yacht Charters in the Caribbean. This company had the largest fleet of Canadian sailboats. The CS36 were easier to work on and were very agile sloops that you sail smartly into Cane Garden Bay and drop the hook under sail. If you bought one these boats now be prepared to rip-out that old red Westerbeake diesel and install a new engine. Beef-up the rigging, install a windvane and buy new sails. Head South.
Following on to my comment yesterday there was another change that CS transitioned in 1980. They introduced the coachroof mounted mainsail traveler in lieu of the cockpit mounted one. The cockpit travelled was mounted just forward of the pedestal and had a #16 st winch mounted on it, most people switched out the winch for a multiparty tackle. At that time CS started supplying 36T’s to the charter boat companies and they needed full Biminis.
I've learned so much from your videos,thanks alot.
Looking to do the Kingston Ont. to Bimini run on a Crown 28(based of a cal28 I believe).
No ocean crossing for sure.
Take care.
K.
I owned a Catalina 42 and 47, then owned an Oyster 53. The Oyster was so much more sea kindly. In 30 knots of wind it just plowed through waves and was dramatically quieter compared to Catalinas. You could steer the Oyster with one finger in 30 knots. The Catalina would wear you out after 2 hours of sailing in 30 knots no matter how much canvas you would take down. Nevertheless I much preferred my Catalinas for simplicity and “logicality” . To keep an Oyster in tip top shape is logarithmically more complicated and expensive.
For cruising I would hands down rather have my Catalinas. For crossing oceans I would keep the Oyster for comfort and safety but realize it it is likely 4 times as expensive to purchase, 4 times more expensive to maintain, and the time and energy to maintain is not a one person our two couple effort. That being said the “Sailing Florence “ TH-cam channel couple is able to maintain their < 40 footer Oyster on a shoe string budge and has made it 3/4 the way around the world.
Oyster is a beautiful yacht.
Love the channel, very educational. I watch Distant Shores TV as well and would love to hear your take on centerboards/vertical lifting keels like the Southerly. Even production boats like Beneteau and Jeanneau have an option for them.
To a great discussion and announcer...Cheers...
Great sailing. Really love your videos. Greetings from FIJI 🇫🇯.
I learned to sail on a swing keel cs22. Fun boat. Little pop top gave more standing room, Head, table , slept 4 comfortably.
Now I need to go look at a few CS36s. :D Thanks for the episode...enjoyed it.
I have one for sale if you are still looking..
Love the question, love the discussion.
Would love to see Grampian 26- a great great lakes sailor! and other Grampians. Love your channel!
I’ve sail a Grampian 26. The Hull is super solid and surprisingly was the most dry at our marina and it was an older boat . But did’nt pass the meter on top. Which i think is more problematic. No soft spot that i remember and i was not inspecting the boat. But the stantions were not solid. Everything was not looking good on top. The hatches, the rudder, the winches (weird winches tho!), … well just everything. Same inside. For me it’s not the most sexy boat to look at. But , i don’t know if it’s because i came with a bad feeling at first… but it give me a really nice ride! That boat was really well balanced. It was a charm to sail and to steer. A guy with a Hunter 26 about 30 years younger try to race us… never come close. Strange fact. The genoa block track was so long and we cannot put the block were it belong. I suggest the owner to buy two tracks and bolt it down in front of the original one.
If you find one Grampian in good shape for cheap (you know… it as to be super cheap) you can have good time sailing it.
Yes...thank you; I've wanted to see your thoughts on the CS36 for a while now. Now, I'd love to see what you think of the Niagara 35. Thank you for your series - fascinating watching!
Good show Tim! Your co-host deserves an extra marshmallow in her cocoa ☕
To go blue water sailing you need a vessel that will not break this includes the gear aboard. Small fin keelboats are not ideal and heavy displacement boats will take you twice as long to complete the passage, dilemma? I have crossed Biscay twice in a Contessa 26. A very small long keeled boat based on a Folkboat. I was in my twenties and stupid, 70 now and just as stupid but prefer a bit more comfort. Very wet and uncomfortable passages both times with a couple of terrifying moment thrown in. Listen to best advice like this channel and prepare well before setting off. If you are doing the Atlantic going west I would suggest the ARC, Atlantic race for cruising boats, you are likely to have another vessel within a reasonable distance in the event of emergency. It is much an ocean crossing in company as a race and safety is paramount.
CS 36 (T) is on my list of possible boats for liveaboard Caribbean cruising.
another complaint of the CS 36 is a shallow bilge. Tony Castro designed the CS 36 Merlin, like you said, a bit more of a racer than the traditional.
How about the Compac 35? Thanks for the videos! Buy you beer when I see you out there.
I'll wager my backstay (if my Hunter had one!) that ole Joshua Slocum would cruise all three round the world!
Again as before, thx.
And happy happy xmas to the Elf. 😃
The weakness of the CS36 is the rudder design. It is too fragile. My friend lost a rudder between Portugal mainland and Madeira and I towed him with my T34C (S&S Design). He had a new rudder built and left a few weeks after. He hit another floating object and this time called for help and abandonned ship on his way to the Caribeans. I believe a bluewater boat should have a Skeg hung rudder but you don't need a bluewater boat to sail the Caribeans. Cheers, Richard
Totally true to a point however more Beneteaus have cross more oceans than any other boat with spade hung rudders and the keel should protect the rudder from objects. Had a friend abandon a bluewater boat 300 miles off the Azores ship picked them up heading to New York rudder was turned too much during heavy seas and the shaft bent seizing the steering
@@Mechone11 Of course, there are so many Beneteaus in general.
@@aphilippinesadventure9184 My point and there are no lives being lost or sinkings yet there are more of them than any other boat yet people claim " they are not bluewater boats" BS My last boat was skeg hung rudder yet I wouldn't take it out on a rough day .
@@Mechone11 I don't know if there Beneteaus are any more or less safe than other production boats- but yes, there have been sinkings and fatalities. In 2014, the keel fell off of the Cheeki Rafiki, with the loss of 4 lives. There have been a number of sinkings of what was thought to be otherwise sound boats, including the sinking off of Baja of a Beneteau 44.7 in 2020 , though all were rescued. There was no grounding or collision but it sank in 340 ft of water over about 6 hours of time during which the crew looked frantically for the water source and could not find it. Im sure there are others, but there are a lot of Beneteaus, so that does not prove much. There are a lot of them sailing probably all over the world any given day.
@@aphilippinesadventure9184 Come on Cheeki Rafiki was raced hard and grounded several times and did not have the proper repairs carried out by a company that leased the boat out. And in 2020 the 44.7 had a saildrive in mexico that the rubber most likely ripped proper maintenance not done .2 boats out of tens of thousands LOL your too funny
With a center board
Good talk..
photo at 3:10 was taken in Lunenburg NS, "Black sea" that we can see in the background was my cruising buddy boat last summer :)
And ironically in a discussion of blue water capabilities, that specific CS “Vata” was on its way around the world to Australia.
They are rare, but Watkins 36 Center cockpit are tanks !
would love to see an all you need to know on Allied
Another great vid 👍
The tank capacities you listed are in British gallons, a somewhat misleading difference that has been echoed in other reviews I've read. US gallons are listed @ sailboatdata and are 100 gal water, 42 gal fuel, 35 gal holding. The Merlin is a great boat, but not "racier". The cs36t is faster in every PHRF rating everywhere... quite a bit faster really.
Also, as an owner of a cs36t, who has also been on a Catalina 36, the comparison between the two sailboats is very unfair to both boats.
Lastly, in my opinion, the term "bluewater" is one of the most misunderstood labels you can put on any boat. In my experience, the skipper is 90% of what makes a boat "bluewater".
Love to see a video on bilge keel Vivacity 20s and their cousins. She might be small, but she's mighty
My Dad has had his for over 40 years in the Solent in the UK. Still looks after it and sails it occasionally. Tough little boats.
@@ORBEX I haven't had Eventide for many years, but I've always wanted to put it through its paces..... can't say I've not debated coast hugging the east coast from where I am in Canada down to Florida... normally you wouldn't think a 20ft would make that, but I have a feeling she could make it. Getting the time to try..... now that's wishful thinking lol
The apple does not fall far from the tree....in a good way.👍
people have sailed the globe on a lot less, so I'd say yes as much as the Catalinas
I live in New Zealand , I would have a Island Packet all day any day . Shallow draft for the islands 42 + feet .
But not over 44 .
The sea state around NZ is not predictable or kind to the foolish .
there are no 100 mile hops .
your thoughts ?
I would sail a Nicholson 26 across the globe.. just because its an awesome old school tank of a boat lol
I love your vids and look forward to them every week! What are your thoughts on Shannon boats?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on Ericson Yachts
I see the value of an enclosed (not bolt on) keel and a full skeg rudder. I ** THINK ** I would prefer a boat that had both of those qualities for crossing oceans. But I don't really have any real blue water experience so that may be my paranoia talking.
Many of the photos of the interior shown in this video are from the Merlin. No, the interior layout is not the same. Different designers, completely different boat. Both can be a great offshore boat. Previous owner of the Merlin we owned sailed her Maryland to Ireland and back, singlehanded.
Was just scrolling down to say the same thing. 36T has no aft cabin with door, has a quarter berth. Very nice boats!
Even though I have a hughes 40 ketch, I'd gladly cross any ocean in a flicka 20, centaur 26, westerly pageant 22, contessa 26 or Falmouth cutter 22.
I would love your thoughts on the pearson 35. So much debate about it being bluewater or not.
The CS36T is a fast boat 9knots is not uncommon, draw backs the engine is in backwards old velvet drives with V drives 16,000lb and I have worked on 3 of them. One just sold beside me 65,000cdn ,you would hard to find one under 40,000 CDN Merlin engine is installed foreward has walk thru transom and are also fast
I just purchased a 1977 International I-23 and would be interested in what you come up with a out these sailboats. I have found some information on them. Not a lot out there. It would be fun to see what you can come up with.
Do an episode on the catalina 22
Would you cruise to the south with a 1979 C&C 34 ?
Can you do some smaller boats like bluewater pocket crusiers
Would a 1982 csy 33 in great operational condition be a boat that can be sailed to the eastern Caribbean from north east
How about a show on the C&C 24 Niagara?
Very interesting! This is very important to help people that is buying sailboats! I would like to suggest a super inspiring book related to this subject, titled Living the dream by José Nunes, available at Amazon! With several stories on diferent sailboat models, and it includes a crossing of the big South Atlantic...
Would love your thoughts on a Tartan 37
What about ovni with their internal ballast and swing keel?
I found one listed at $19000 that needs an engine. I kinda like an older boat that needs an engine, as I would like an affordable older boat with a brand new engine. Then I noticed this boat uses a V drive arrangement I haven't seen before. The V is seperate from the transmission. Hmmm. Worried the engine refit would be problematic.
Do you want a sailboat with pretty much nothing left to do
@@joeldelamirande5792There is no such thing as a boat with nothing left to do. Not even on a new boat. That is a myth.
Do a Yankee Dolphin 24!
How bout a ior boat like the Tartan 41
Hi. I love your vids. I was wondering if maybe you could make a vid about what kind of a boat I would need for a family of 4 for ocean crossing and live aboard in a colder climate (Canada). Thank you in advance
I have a 1982 37' Hunter. Would really like your review of this boat! Any chance?? Very similar to the CS 37 or C & C 36.
Thoughts on Erickson 35 or any Morgan
Black water? No one uses their holding tank except in some restricted harbors
You must not be from the great lakes.
@@tracystrelau9885 no.. he was talking about what is a blue water boat.. not great lakes .. that's offshore..animals live in the ocean.. and don't use a holding tank either.. lol
What about the Caliber 1997 LRC? Blue water?
can't You check out Elan and for example the Elan 384 Impression? would be great to hear your opinion, greetings from Germany
I like your review. Maybe it's in an other range but what about a Tartan 372? oR 37 (s&s) Would it be a bluewater.?
I built Tartan 37' s in 79-80 in North Carolina. Very well built boat. Working here gave me the sailing fever and I've been into sailing since.
La Vagabonde was not considered a blue water boat and they sailed from Europe to Australia. Has anyone ever blue watered a Beneteau Sense? There’s a 51 for sale and I love the interior layout
@0:57 What boat is that?
And I really like a contest really heavy buily
How about a review of an Ericson 35-3? Fairly similar to the CS 36.
@@brianross4388 or do my 28ft southern cross lol
Another great video Tim, if you can could you do a video on another great Canadian sailboat the Vandestadt & Mcgruer Siren 17 built near Toronto on Owen sound from what I hear it is a great little pocket cruiser thank you.
CS Boats are so far ahead of the other boats you mentioned and you dropped out a very important point and that is construction and design. The CS 36 and 40's are designed to handle getting knocked around and keeping you safe inside with hand holds throughout the main salon. Notice the companionway and how narrow it is. Please be more thorough with your reviews as you are just scraping the surface.
I have a 1982 CS36 in superb shape. Just needs bottom paint. For sale. Comment if you are interested. It’s in California.
It almost a C&C
Better built than a C&C
How so
I agree. CS are better built than C&C. I had both.
How about a Grampian G23? You never connected me to let me know how someone else's G23 turned out?
;
PLEASE DO A VIDEO ON NEW BOMBAY TRADING!!!!
Blue water? Ask the Cuban kid who washed up in Myrtle beach in a Blue Water modified refrigerator.
I really love your videos they are so informative i have done some local sailing and in the process of wanting to build my own Yacht what are your thoughts on a Dudley Dix 34 as a blue water cruiser
Hmmm, it seems pretty stoutly built at over 15,000 lbs for a 36 ft boat, but with a fin keel and an unprotected prop and an unprotected rudder, I would pass. Many times it is NOT possible to outrun the weather due to rapid changes in conditions.
My boat is a tub- a Skookum, and not all that fast, but built like a fort, with 160 gallons of water and over 100 gal of diesel.
Combined with a full keel and a very protected prop and rudder, it is still a better way to go in my mind.