From Malaysia, i'm starting to learn more about the ummah from other parts of the world. Currently focusing on Black Americans, and soon Muslims in Latin America. So, I started off my reading with Dr Jackson's book, and I'm loving his work. Hope to see more new interviews of him!
"The idea of racial supremacy is problematic in itself." (We) must "Avoid attacking them, only in order to become them." Beautiful points!!! Any form of racial supremacy, eventually causes the downfall of the society.
MashaAllah it's an amazing podcast full of wisdoms. Dr. Jackson is a gemstone for the Ummah. May Allah bless those who put efforts for this podcast to reach us.
In a 2006 review by Ayman Fadel of Sherman Jackson’s book, Islam and the Black American: Looking Toward the Third Resurrection, which appeared in an online blog, he writes that “The Blackamerican Muslim today has lost control of the definition of Islam to Immigrant Islam in the United States, not because immigrant Muslims and their descendants practice a “purer” Islam but because of their relative affluence, their ideological self-assuredness and weaknesses in Black Religion*. ... Immigrant Islam, by devaluing “the West”, prevents Blackamerican Muslims from contributing positively to Blackamerican's struggle against white supremacy. The psychological dislocation of abandoning their own selves in exchange for a foreign, identity-based Islam leaves Blackamerican Muslims ineffective in both the secular and religious spheres.” This is so important to address by BlackAmerican leadership, its the elephant in the room.
I am currently reading Islam and the problem of Black suffering. May Allah forgive me, I initially underestimated him because of his western name thinking him to be a typical mid 20th century non muslim orientalist type person trying to force impose Islam on black american cobtext, Aujubillah! Reading past 60 pages, I remembered that I forgot to do little reading about the author as I do with all other books, and I was shocked he is a contemporary big scholar, well versed in Islamic tradition. May Allah guide me, Astagfirullah!
Mashallah, another insightful and wonderful episode. Out of the ones I have watched, this one and the Jonathan Brown one have left the deepest marks and learnings. Dr. Jackson is a gem, which should be a given since he is one of the utmost top scholars we have, alhumdulillah.
Excellent podcast but would be made much better if you stopped trying to interject and also muted when the guest is talking. Dont have to say "mhm" every couple seconds either. Really distracts from retention. Would love a part two.
Dr. Jacksons story from Philly, re: 'ain't no deen in it'. The weaknesses within Black Religion have emerged, particularly in formulating religious references and iconology. These weaknesses partly arise from the oppressive context within which Black Religion has been cultivated. Racist ideologies have often represented Black Religion as a deviation, illegitimate, or even heretical compared to mainstream religious establishments. Such marginalization has undermined the control and authority of Blackamerican Muslims over the definition of Islam, potentially increasing their vulnerability to external influences.
Though I appreciate Dr. Sherman acknowledging the influence of the Nation of Islam, it continues to amaze me how Black Muslims in America continue to make the dismissive assertion that “the NOI are not Muslims”, as if they have the yardstick to measure one’s inclusion in and practice of the Faith. Not only is this ridiculous, it is quite arrogant. The seminal split in the early years of the establishing of Islam divided the community between Shia and Sunni, with many more divisions to arise in the centuries to come. Yet though many may not agree between various Muslim schools of thought, no Sunni can proclaim that the Shia are not Muslim, and vice versa. Whether you agree or disagree with NOI doctrine is not the issue, but to dismiss the NOI from the entire community of Islam and proclaim “they are not Muslims” is absurd, and in fact criminal if you are Black in America. Nearly ALL Muslims in America have their origin in the NOI. This is not debatable. Furthermore, many from the Sunni community speak of the NOI as if it “used” to exist, and is still not a major presence in the Black community and the world (which it is). You don’t have to agree with the NOI, but I think it would be wise to refrain from deciding who is and isn’t a Muslim. Perhaps the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fits this phenomenon wherein he stated: “Indeed, Islam began as something strange, and it will again return as being something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers…” If the Nation of Islam was/is one such group of strangers, then the Muslim world is in for a big surprise. 24:12
It's very possible to appreciate the contributions of the NOI without accepting it as authentically Islamic. Black Muslims as well as all Muslims *do* have the yardstick to judge these things by; it's called the Qur'an and the Sunna. And in the Qur'an we find that on every page it is talking about or alluding to the AFTERLIFE. The ideas of the Day of Judgement, Heaven, and Hell are all clearly there. Then we find the NOI rejecting and even mocking the idea of the Afterlife. So of course the NOI is not going to be taken seriously by anyone, in terms of its claims to be Islamic. Logically speaking, if we were to take your argument to its natural conclusion, no one could *ever* say that anyone is a non-Muslim. A Christian who denies the Prophet but who claims to be a "Muslim" in the sense of submitting to God-Jesus would have to be accepted as a "Muslim" at face value. A person who believes in Allah but believes that Allah is just a metaphor for the life energy that resides within us would have to be accepted at face value as a Muslim. All kinds of absurdities would have to be entertained. So no, it is not "absurd" that we reject the NOI and consider them as non-Muslims. What is absurd is that someone who believes in a human-god (Master Fard) would insist that they be accepted as Muslim. What is absurd is that someone who completely rejects the idea of the Afterlife and tries to re-define Paradise/Jannah as a black utopian state in the Americas would insist that they still be accepted as Muslim. You're right, the NOI still exists, but it's past its heyday. It is basically a Farrakhan personality cult with some political appeal. Its religious/theological side has very little traction with anyone. The theology does not even resonate with black Americans anymore. The other angle on this is that one could argue that the *original* NOI which was led by Elijah and then by his son Warith Deen no longer exists as a structured body. Farrakhan's NOI is something new; it is of his own creation and it contains its own new variety of teachings and interpretations. Is it a *descendant* of the original NOI? Sure. But then so are the 2 million African-American Sunni Muslims who grew up in the W.D. community. They and their children can also collectively be considered as the "Nation of Islam" without the label. So in one sense, we can speak of the original Nation of Islam and its descendants being true orthodox Muslims today. Please explain why you typed "pbuh" after the Prophet's name? According to Elijah, we become dust and our consciousness does not continue. Therefore, as per the NOI's beliefs, the Prophet can neither be in a state of peace or non-peace. He simply does not exist anymore, in any shape, manner, or form. So why bother saying "pbuh"? I'm being critical, but I'm not hating on you. I have nothing against you personally, my friend. I pray that Allah guides us all. Peace to you.
@@ThatCanadianBrother All of your points regarding the Day of Judgment, Heaven and Hell, are all matters of interpretation. And the difference of opinion regarding these concepts is not limited to the NOI. Other Muslims throughout history have debated these concepts. And all of those concepts and beliefs were taught by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and continue to be taught by Minister Farrakhan. Yet it is the understanding given regarding these concepts that are rejected by so-called mainstream Muslims. And it is perfectly fine for some Muslims to take issue with their explanation and interpretation, but one cannot (justifiably) say that Muslims in the NOI do not believe in these ideas, therefore making them non-Muslims. There is not one pillar of Islamic faith that is not part of NOI beliefs and practice. And you are incorrect that the natural conclusion to my argument would be that one could never say anyone is “non-Muslim”. My position is that members of the Nation of Islam, yesterday and today, consider themselves Muslims (different from Christians and others you alluded to), and there is not a belief or practice that is found in the Holy Qur’an that is not considered by NOI Muslims as fundamental to the Faith. Yet because there are aspects of the NOI interpretation of Qur’an and Hadith that other Muslims (who come from other traditions) take issue with, some then take the position to say “they are not Muslims”, rather than simply say they do not agree with their interpretation of certain ideas and concepts (i.e. the Day of Judgment, Heaven, Hell, the reality of God, etc.). And your ideas of “human-god” and “black utopian state” are not the language of the NOI. THEM did consistently state that “Allah appeared in the person of Master Fard Muhammad” and spoke of the Hereafter, both of which are quite controversial points to many Muslims understandably, but as previously stated, still cannot be a basis to label one unIslamic. And for the record, it is not that the acceptance of the NOI as Muslims by other Muslims from other traditions somehow substantiates the validity of the NOI. Not so. The real tragedy I was attempting to highlight in my comment is that nearly all of Black America who claims to be Muslim can trace their roots back to the Nation of Islam; yet many seem to have this very sad and conflicted way of relating to it. I have heard many use the sayings of Elijah Muhammad, and even Master Fard Muhammad, to substantiate the leadership of WD Muhammad, yet in the same breath, reject any idea of divinity of MFM or THEM, and even make mockery and slander them. Why then reference the Nation of Islam at all? And it also strikes me as odd that a group with such prominence and influence, in terms of spreading Islam in the consciousness of Black people in America, would turn around and be described by the beneficiaries of such a movement as “non-Muslims”. If you don’t agree with the NOI then and now, why not simply say you don’t agree with THAT group of Muslims, rather than try to elevate yourself as a judge of who is a Muslim or not? Lastly, the NOI is no more a personality cult than was the community of Islam under Prophet Muhammad. And as that community was guided despite the difficulty of losing such a great one in Prophet Muhammad, through others that emerged from among his companions, so will it be today as the NOI continues after the absence of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, through the leadership of the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, and will continue to be guided into the future beyond. May Allah bless us with the Light of Understanding.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Fantastic podcast!
I really enjoyed this interview. Dr. Jackson seemed to have much more to share. Please interview him again soon.
Dr sherman jacksons life really shows the transformation that occured in american life in the 20th century.
I have not seen any new videos with Dr. Sherman Jackson in the longest time! Thanks for interviewing him. JazaakumAllah khairan.
From Malaysia, i'm starting to learn more about the ummah from other parts of the world. Currently focusing on Black Americans, and soon Muslims in Latin America. So, I started off my reading with Dr Jackson's book, and I'm loving his work. Hope to see more new interviews of him!
This man is amazing! May Allah bless him!
"The idea of racial supremacy is problematic in itself."
(We) must "Avoid attacking them, only in order to become them."
Beautiful points!!! Any form of racial supremacy, eventually causes the downfall of the society.
MashaAllah it's an amazing podcast full of wisdoms. Dr. Jackson is a gemstone for the Ummah. May Allah bless those who put efforts for this podcast to reach us.
BRAVO!
In a 2006 review by Ayman Fadel of Sherman Jackson’s book, Islam and the Black American: Looking Toward the Third Resurrection, which appeared in an online blog, he writes that “The Blackamerican Muslim today has lost control of the definition of Islam to Immigrant Islam in the United States, not because immigrant Muslims and their descendants practice a “purer” Islam but because of their relative affluence, their ideological self-assuredness and weaknesses in Black Religion*. ... Immigrant Islam, by devaluing “the West”, prevents Blackamerican Muslims from contributing positively to Blackamerican's struggle against white supremacy. The psychological dislocation of abandoning their own selves in exchange for a foreign, identity-based Islam leaves Blackamerican Muslims ineffective in both the secular and religious spheres.” This is so important to address by BlackAmerican leadership, its the elephant in the room.
Subhanallah, that’s a heavy and uncomfortable truth.
I am currently reading Islam and the problem of Black suffering.
May Allah forgive me, I initially underestimated him because of his western name thinking him to be a typical mid 20th century non muslim orientalist type person trying to force impose Islam on black american cobtext, Aujubillah!
Reading past 60 pages, I remembered that I forgot to do little reading about the author as I do with all other books, and I was shocked he is a contemporary big scholar, well versed in Islamic tradition.
May Allah guide me, Astagfirullah!
Mashallah, another insightful and wonderful episode. Out of the ones I have watched, this one and the Jonathan Brown one have left the deepest marks and learnings. Dr. Jackson is a gem, which should be a given since he is one of the utmost top scholars we have, alhumdulillah.
Wow, profound insights from Dr., Signature of Muslim Society @ 1:17:40
Alhamdullilah thanku Dr.Jackson for highlighting the influence of the Nation of Islam in our communities during that time!!!!!!
Thank you for this. Loved learning from you and listening to this informative podcast ❤
excellent podcast ustaz..jazakallah
Excellent podcast but would be made much better if you stopped trying to interject and also muted when the guest is talking. Dont have to say "mhm" every couple seconds either. Really distracts from retention. Would love a part two.
Beautiful episode!!!
Loved this conversation mA
excellent!
Very interesting Podcast
Thanks for listening
Dr. Jacksons story from Philly, re: 'ain't no deen in it'. The weaknesses within Black Religion have emerged, particularly in formulating religious references and iconology. These weaknesses partly arise from the oppressive context within which Black Religion has been cultivated. Racist ideologies have often represented Black Religion as a deviation, illegitimate, or even heretical compared to mainstream religious establishments. Such marginalization has undermined the control and authority of Blackamerican Muslims over the definition of Islam, potentially increasing their vulnerability to external influences.
Though I appreciate Dr. Sherman acknowledging the influence of the Nation of Islam, it continues to amaze me how Black Muslims in America continue to make the dismissive assertion that “the NOI are not Muslims”, as if they have the yardstick to measure one’s inclusion in and practice of the Faith. Not only is this ridiculous, it is quite arrogant. The seminal split in the early years of the establishing of Islam divided the community between Shia and Sunni, with many more divisions to arise in the centuries to come. Yet though many may not agree between various Muslim schools of thought, no Sunni can proclaim that the Shia are not Muslim, and vice versa. Whether you agree or disagree with NOI doctrine is not the issue, but to dismiss the NOI from the entire community of Islam and proclaim “they are not Muslims” is absurd, and in fact criminal if you are Black in America. Nearly ALL Muslims in America have their origin in the NOI. This is not debatable. Furthermore, many from the Sunni community speak of the NOI as if it “used” to exist, and is still not a major presence in the Black community and the world (which it is). You don’t have to agree with the NOI, but I think it would be wise to refrain from deciding who is and isn’t a Muslim. Perhaps the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fits this phenomenon wherein he stated: “Indeed, Islam began as something strange, and it will again return as being something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers…” If the Nation of Islam was/is one such group of strangers, then the Muslim world is in for a big surprise. 24:12
It's very possible to appreciate the contributions of the NOI without accepting it as authentically Islamic. Black Muslims as well as all Muslims *do* have the yardstick to judge these things by; it's called the Qur'an and the Sunna. And in the Qur'an we find that on every page it is talking about or alluding to the AFTERLIFE. The ideas of the Day of Judgement, Heaven, and Hell are all clearly there. Then we find the NOI rejecting and even mocking the idea of the Afterlife. So of course the NOI is not going to be taken seriously by anyone, in terms of its claims to be Islamic.
Logically speaking, if we were to take your argument to its natural conclusion, no one could *ever* say that anyone is a non-Muslim. A Christian who denies the Prophet but who claims to be a "Muslim" in the sense of submitting to God-Jesus would have to be accepted as a "Muslim" at face value. A person who believes in Allah but believes that Allah is just a metaphor for the life energy that resides within us would have to be accepted at face value as a Muslim. All kinds of absurdities would have to be entertained. So no, it is not "absurd" that we reject the NOI and consider them as non-Muslims. What is absurd is that someone who believes in a human-god (Master Fard) would insist that they be accepted as Muslim. What is absurd is that someone who completely rejects the idea of the Afterlife and tries to re-define Paradise/Jannah as a black utopian state in the Americas would insist that they still be accepted as Muslim.
You're right, the NOI still exists, but it's past its heyday. It is basically a Farrakhan personality cult with some political appeal. Its religious/theological side has very little traction with anyone. The theology does not even resonate with black Americans anymore. The other angle on this is that one could argue that the *original* NOI which was led by Elijah and then by his son Warith Deen no longer exists as a structured body. Farrakhan's NOI is something new; it is of his own creation and it contains its own new variety of teachings and interpretations. Is it a *descendant* of the original NOI? Sure. But then so are the 2 million African-American Sunni Muslims who grew up in the W.D. community. They and their children can also collectively be considered as the "Nation of Islam" without the label. So in one sense, we can speak of the original Nation of Islam and its descendants being true orthodox Muslims today.
Please explain why you typed "pbuh" after the Prophet's name? According to Elijah, we become dust and our consciousness does not continue. Therefore, as per the NOI's beliefs, the Prophet can neither be in a state of peace or non-peace. He simply does not exist anymore, in any shape, manner, or form. So why bother saying "pbuh"?
I'm being critical, but I'm not hating on you. I have nothing against you personally, my friend. I pray that Allah guides us all. Peace to you.
@@ThatCanadianBrother All of your points regarding the Day of Judgment, Heaven and Hell, are all matters of interpretation. And the difference of opinion regarding these concepts is not limited to the NOI. Other Muslims throughout history have debated these concepts. And all of those concepts and beliefs were taught by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and continue to be taught by Minister Farrakhan. Yet it is the understanding given regarding these concepts that are rejected by so-called mainstream Muslims. And it is perfectly fine for some Muslims to take issue with their explanation and interpretation, but one cannot (justifiably) say that Muslims in the NOI do not believe in these ideas, therefore making them non-Muslims. There is not one pillar of Islamic faith that is not part of NOI beliefs and practice.
And you are incorrect that the natural conclusion to my argument would be that one could never say anyone is “non-Muslim”. My position is that members of the Nation of Islam, yesterday and today, consider themselves Muslims (different from Christians and others you alluded to), and there is not a belief or practice that is found in the Holy Qur’an that is not considered by NOI Muslims as fundamental to the Faith. Yet because there are aspects of the NOI interpretation of Qur’an and Hadith that other Muslims (who come from other traditions) take issue with, some then take the position to say “they are not Muslims”, rather than simply say they do not agree with their interpretation of certain ideas and concepts (i.e. the Day of Judgment, Heaven, Hell, the reality of God, etc.). And your ideas of “human-god” and “black utopian state” are not the language of the NOI. THEM did consistently state that “Allah appeared in the person of Master Fard Muhammad” and spoke of the Hereafter, both of which are quite controversial points to many Muslims understandably, but as previously stated, still cannot be a basis to label one unIslamic.
And for the record, it is not that the acceptance of the NOI as Muslims by other Muslims from other traditions somehow substantiates the validity of the NOI. Not so. The real tragedy I was attempting to highlight in my comment is that nearly all of Black America who claims to be Muslim can trace their roots back to the Nation of Islam; yet many seem to have this very sad and conflicted way of relating to it. I have heard many use the sayings of Elijah Muhammad, and even Master Fard Muhammad, to substantiate the leadership of WD Muhammad, yet in the same breath, reject any idea of divinity of MFM or THEM, and even make mockery and slander them. Why then reference the Nation of Islam at all?
And it also strikes me as odd that a group with such prominence and influence, in terms of spreading Islam in the consciousness of Black people in America, would turn around and be described by the beneficiaries of such a movement as “non-Muslims”. If you don’t agree with the NOI then and now, why not simply say you don’t agree with THAT group of Muslims, rather than try to elevate yourself as a judge of who is a Muslim or not?
Lastly, the NOI is no more a personality cult than was the community of Islam under Prophet Muhammad. And as that community was guided despite the difficulty of losing such a great one in Prophet Muhammad, through others that emerged from among his companions, so will it be today as the NOI continues after the absence of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, through the leadership of the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan, and will continue to be guided into the future beyond.
May Allah bless us with the Light of Understanding.