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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Special analysis of Knolly Four By 4 suspension system and it's Anti-Squat philosophy (particular case of Warden enduro model).
Software: Linkage X3
Note: I managed to substantially improve the audio quality in this video (Finally :D).
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I prefer this type of videos where you are speaking instead of the previous one with music :) Well done ! Nice Work again :)
yes, i have to agree this is the way to go with your vids from now on! this format is very easy to understand for most viewers! great work as always! Cheers
Your videos are awesome and I've learned a ton from them. Thanks for making them! I own a Knolly Warden and this video explains what I've perceived since I've been riding it. It's an exceptional technical climber with amazing traction up rocky, rooty, challenging climbs. In fact, for me it's a far superior technical climber to the VPP, Horst Link, or DW link bikes I've ridden. However, on long sustained non-technical climbs its pedaling inefficiency is apparent, though in the climb mode it's really not bad. Overall it's exceptional technical climber and an amazing descender, but won't fly up a fire road. Thanks again for the analysis!
;) Thanks
Fascinating stuff here, and laid out quite well both by you AND Knolly, apparently!
I have a Knolly warden 2016, Before I had terrible time setting up the plushness of the rear shock according to my liking and trails out here in the east coast Ca.
Then I installed fox shocks CTD with remote lockout , I was blown on how it climbed and open up at square jumps and hops. Totally the best bike I’ve ever had so far.
Great analysis. One point of clarification: the anti-squat is not necessarily just ON or OFF. With a suspension platform such as the Cane Creek Double Barrel Air with a Climb Switch, the climb switch is actually a variable position throughout the entire range, not just "on" or "off". By allowing variability on the circuit, you allow rider to tune exactly how much LSC/activity/anti-squat throughout the entire range.
Hi Kendall. Yes, indeed you can adjust the Climb Switch on CCDB, however you can't get the pedaling efficiency with a fully active shock at the same time. It's always a compromise. That's why I said platform ON or OFF. If you don't switch back to Open mode the shock won't be so active on downhills. By the way, anti-squat is a term usually used to the describe the efficiency from the linkage only. Bye :)
Thanks for doing a Knolly!!!
Thanks!
I hope see for the explanations of Mondraker Summum and Session 9
2 - I prefer this type of videos where you are speaking instead of the previous one with music :) Well done ! Nice Work again :)
Thank you Marcelo :) I already did the Summum and Session analysis separately (with music I know, but I think that everyone now has the knowledge to understand the data and compare them between each other). I will try to address more new bikes in the future. Any question about the previous models feel free to ask (if I know...). Bye :)
Hi Andre, I think you're missing something about anti-squat: AS is positively correlated to pedal-kickback, meaning high AS = high PK.
When you state that under pedalling, suspension might not be fully active to bumps, it is also true when your are NOT pedaling since suspension compression under bumps will generate pedal kickback, i.e., vertical, top directed motion of the right pedal under suspension compression.
Since you are weighting on pedals, and due to the vertical, ground directed component of acceleration that you encounter during a jump reception or after the summit of a bump , and that is transmitted to the suspension through pedals, you're just partly blocking the suspension action.
So high AS basically interferate with suspension action even when you are not pedalling, and prevent the suspension to act as it should.
Your rational is totally right. However, that's mostly valid when you are at a static position or at slow speeds (eg: climbing). At faster speeds the chain growth will mostly make the rear free hub to rotate forward, instead of rotating the pedals backwards and lifting your weight (the wheel is already spinning fast, so the chain pulling will just make the cassette to rotate forward and you wont feel nothing on the pedals, in this case the suspension is almost free to move). At slower speeds you will feel more the kickback because the cassette can no longer freely rotate forward because that would cause acceleration to the bike. Since that you mostly stop pedaling when you are running faster (eg: descends) in practice the kickback is mostly felt when you are pedaling and the chain is under tension (specially on technical climbs).
Compression damper (as viscous damping) is an energy dissipation component by itself unless oil flow is completely restricted (full lockout). "Pedaling platforms" are not a full hydraulic lockout. I think it is not fully efficient on minimizing energy waste on pedal bob but it dissipates (wastes) a lot that bob energy into heat through he damper.
So it's a beast on descends.
Hello! id like a deep analysis and comparison of the Knolly Four By 4 suspension system, the Giant Maestro suspension system and the Trek ABP Full Floater suspension system, PLEASE!!
A BIG THANK YOU!!
Gostava de ver um video com a analise da suspensão de Commençal Supreme DH V3, porque ainda não vi uma em que o amortecedor não é preso ao quadro.
Olá Pedro, ok logo a noite já vejo isso, mas já fiz varias com amortecedores flutuantes, por exemplo, a Session ou as Mondrakers. O facto de ser flutuante não traz nada de novo e não quer dizer nada à partida. Depende mais de como a bike está desenhada do que se é flutuante ou não. Podes ter comportamentos idênticos ao flutuante com um desenho tradicional. Abrç
I know this video is old (I watched it years ago, lol) but now that I HAVE a Warden, I'm curious -- was this analysis based on the high or low flip chip positioning?
THANKS A LOT!
You're welcome :)
can you do the guerrilla gravity's new bike 'trail pistol' next please?
Si me permites André, me parece estupenda la nueva manera de enfocar tus análisis... pero en algún lugar de la presentación del vídeo, deberias incluir todas la gráficas existentes... pues hay gente que con solo verlas, ya se hace una idea exacta de lo que se está presentando.
Un saludo.
Ola Josep. Gracias. I decided to reduce the amount of graphs to keep it more simple and easy to understand, but you are right, I will try to include the graphs somewhere in a future video. PS: I understand well Spanish but I'm not good writing it :D
If u were to choose the 2018 banshee rune v2 or 2018 knolly warden for pisgah riding??
I have always had some inquiry regarding pedalling plattform or "pro-pedal" by adding compression damping to rear shock. Bike Manufacturers must have done extensive research on this but, if pedalling plattform is intended to minimize energy waste on pedal bob, it seems to me somewhat contradictory.
Thank you for all your work. I learned a lot from your videos on suspension kinematics. I especially liked the Rocky Mountain Slayer video.
Any chance you could analyze the Yeti SB 5.5?
Hi. Already did for SB6 and more recently to Vitalmtb review of SB5 (link bellow). The 5.5 should be similar since all of them share a very similar design. Bye
www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Bikes,3/Yeti/SB5-Carbon-XT-SLX,18082#product-reviews/2732/expand
Would you like to do an analysis on Pivot Firebird? I've got a lot interest on that frame. Many thanks!
Hi. The Firebird 17 has a good pedaling efficiency (with a bit higher anti-squat than average) and it has a normal progressivity for Enduro (around 25-30%). Nothing wrong with it. Bye
Hi I'm new in your channel. And as an Engineer I told you your videos are great. I not watch all videos now and back to bike. I look for and Enduro long travel or even a Downhill bike with good suspension for climbing to the descent point with characteristic like a XC bike. I see a few models of new rear suspension design for this. You can suggest some bikes with this feature "ability" and videos on you review those bikes?
Most modern enduro bikes nowadays have good pedaling effiency (anti-squats). The main differences are on the progressivity. If you want a more aggressive-oriented bike, an example of a progressive bike is the SC Nomad or YT Capra
@@andrextr Thank's
I'd like to see a special analysis of the Insurgent.
:D I have the "non-special" analysis of Insurgent here: th-cam.com/video/MoIOrsQ7WVI/w-d-xo.html . Although it's just numbers & text with background music, the rational is always the same, and I'm sure you can fully understand it :) Any question feel free to ask. Bye
+andrextr Oh, I've seen it! I've seen almost every video you've posted. I am a huge fan.
What about a special video about the Insurgent with the Elevensix shock? I'd love to have a physics breakdown of how/why it works with the geometry so well as well as any shortcomings it may have. What do you think?
Wow, much appreciated :D Thanks :)
+andrextr For sure, you're welcome! Keep putting out these videos. They're a phenomenal resource.
thanks
Thx!!
Oque vc acha do novo commencal meta am v4 ride para uma utilização de enduro mais que dá para fazer freeride et dh sem problemas ?
A AM V4 é boa para Enduro, e há muitos videos na net em que se faz Freeride com ela... pelo que deve aguentar. Mas a AM V4 não é muito progressiva, e para coisas mais agressivas esgota relativamente fácil em saltos maiores.
+andrextr ah ok e pq eu vi muintas pesoas fazendo sautos enormes con ela
Pois eu tb ja vi esses videos... Ela salta na mesma, mas vai bater no fundo facilmente... O que é normal visto ser uma bike de enduro e nao de FR. A YT Capra nesse aspecto já bate menos no fundo. Abrç
+andrextr valeu
What is the progressivity of the Knolly Podium? how do you calculate this? :D
Knolly Podium has an anti-rise of 50% and average anti-squats around 30% for a DH cassete. Podium has a progressivity around 50-55% (which is a good value for DH). This means that it takes 55% more force to bottom-out when compared to a fully linear bike (with a constant leverage ratio), for the same rider weight and a 30% SAG. This is how I calculate it. Bye :)
Wow Thank you very much!! Okie cool Now im sure to buy one ;)
How does a Knolly Endorphin compare to the Warden?
They are quite similar in terms of kinematics. The main difference would be the travel amount. Bye
However, since the pedal bob is considerably minimized the rider "feels" and might believe manufacturer's claim that "the power exerted on the cranks is being transmitted to the wheel to generate forward motion with minimal energy losses in pedal bob".
What are your thoughts on this? I have never seen test data on this (such as power at cranks to power at wheel ratio) comparisons between hardatil, bike relying on "pedaling platform", and bike relying on suspension anti-squat mechanisms.
Sorry for the length of my comments... Just wanted to see the opinion of a bike suspension expert like you (andrextr).
Hi Carlos, that's a great question! Indeed I have been thinking in the same issue in the last months. But first, as a disclaimer, I'm just an enthusiast and not an expert (I'm not even an engineer, nor related to it). To answer your question, I never saw any real data comparing energy loss between the platform philosophy and anti-squat one. What I can say is that the shock absorves the energy from bumps and from the rider movement. So basically the energy from the rider or from the bump is stored temporarily on the spring (compressing it), and then the spring extends releasing it's energy, which in turn is fully dissipated by the rebound damping (generating heat on the oil). The compression damping also dissipates energy, on the compression movement phase, aiding the spring and preventing the shock to compress too much. However, and I don't know exactly how to explain this, but the more compression damping you have the more the energy from the bumps or the rider bypasses the spring and the shock and goes to the frame. For instance, in a extreme case of compression damping, a full lock-out, all the energy from a bump, or rider, bypasses the shock (it won't compress it) and it's transferred to the frame (sprung mass). Thus, when you hit a bump with a lock-out shock, you feel much more the vibration and the impact (bump energy is transferred to the frame & rider butt :D ). This is also the reason why too much compression damping causes harshness. So, to conclude, increasing the compression damping (eg: trail mode) also increases the energy that by-passes the shock, and therefore, you end up with a mix between and Hardtail and a FS bike with more harshness to bumps but less energy lost during pedaling. I hope this makes sense to you. Bye :)
Hi, Thanks for your response…your comments do make a lot of sense! I thought you were a mechanical engineer or some sort of, since your videos cover really technical bike suspension mechanics and are well explained/simplified to be understood by any audience. I am no suspension expert either but an MTB enthusiast who really likes technical stuff and likes to see supporting information prior to taking manufacturer’s marketing claims as true.
My comments are mainly based on the engineering concepts behind the anti-squat and platform philosophies. To my best knowledge, platform is based on adding viscous (oil) damping while anti squat is based on balancing the suspension pedaling forces through geometric arrangement. In the anti-squat philosophy (assuming a 100% anti-squat) the energy losses would be attributed to elastic deformations of the chain, frame and other components involved; while in the platform philosophy energy losses would be attributed to viscous damping (compression and rebound) and some energy is still being dissipated by elastic deformations of chain, frame and components. The main concept I was looking at is that elastic deformations would have less energy dissipation than viscous damping. Again, I am no suspension expert and my comments are based on concepts that may be too general, but would like to see real data on this matter. Best regards…my apologies again for the lengthy comments…
I have a science background but not in engineering :) Just to add more info, a Platform is basically an increased restriction in the oil flow on the compression damping, thus, it will reduce the amount of shock movement and therefore decreases energy loss. Another interesting thing is that energy loss is proportional to the travel (the more you got, the more energy suspension dissipates, either on bumps or on pedaling. I will talk about this in a future video). For sure you lose some energy on frame deformation, mechanical friction and in many other sources (as it happens also in a Hardtail) but when compared to an FS bike, it's on the suspension where you lose more energy (each time it moves, it steals energy... suspension is basically an energy sponge :D). The anti-squat 100% reduces the suspension movement due to the horizontal acceleration but it won't fully eliminate bob since your body also moves up and down during pedaling (vertical movement). Bye :)
I'm trying to learn a lot about suspension kinetics before buying my first Full suspension bike, for me it was between the knolly warden and the propain tyee, could you give me a quick rundown of the propain bike?
The bike has a very low anti-squat (AS)... For the middle cog in the cassete, you get a 40% AS using a 32T chainring, and 70% for a 24T chainring. So the bike pedals better with a small chainring, even thought, it's not great. So, this bike requires a shock with a trail/climb switch. As a consequence the bike has a very low, and good, pedal kickback. The braking performance is normal (AR 75%). Frame progressivity of 20%, which is an average value for Enduro... Easy to use all travel, but also easy to bottom out. Bye
DO A KNOLLY PODIUM!!
It's very similar (anti-rise of 50% and average anti-squats around 30% for a DH cassete). The main difference is the increased progressivity. Podium has a progressivity around 50-55% (which is a good value for DH). Bye
Knolly is pronounced with the k silent my friend🤙
Leave the gun. Take the K-nolly!
Please do a 2011 mongoose boot'r
Hello Alec, sorry but I'm not planing to do the video for the boot'r 2011 for the moment, since it's an older model and these videos take several hours to do. I hope you can understand this. Anyway, I don't know if you saw my previous answer to your previous comment, but I can tell you by words how the bike works: The Boot'r design is interesting but it's not great. The software cannot calculate the Anti-squat because the BB is part of the unsprung mass (the moving part of the suspension). But, I can tell you that the anti-squat will be low (the chaingrowth is also minimal). So, pedaling is not great in this bike. The braking also affects a bit the suspension due to the high main-pivot (anti-rise a bit higher than 100%). And the progressivity of the bike is around -5% (slightly regressive actually). The good part is the axle path (very rearward, therefore, it absorbs the bumps quite well). Bye
+andrextr thank you
do for specialized status.. :)
All Specializeds are very linear. Indeed, Status is no exception (it has 30% progressivity, similar to the Bighit 2011, and Demos). Status suspension is very neutral to braking (AR around 55-60%), which is a quite comum characteristic of most Horst-link bikes. Anti-squat on Status is quite low, around 50% for a middle cog and 36T chainring (it has the main pivot very close to the BB, as it happens with Knollys). The advantage is that the suspension is not affected by chain forces, and you get low pedal kickback, the disadvantage is that pedaling causes more bob on the suspension, but for DH the pedaling is not the most important part. Bye
Oi vc poderia fazer um video do rose soul fire 2016 porfavor ;) en portugeis 😂 legal teus videos mesmo se eu nao entendo nada 😂
Oi. A Soulfire 2016 tem um anti-squat médio de 120% para um prato de 24T, e de 70% para um prato de 36T. Se escolher um prato de 32T na pedaleira, então ronda os 90%. O que significa que pedala relativamente bem. A travagem é boa (anti-rise de 65%). Progressividade a rondar os 25%, o que é um pouco baixo para uma bike de freeride, mas não é muito grave. Valeu :)
+andrextr vc acha que e uma boa bike freeride mais que da tbm para fazer enduro? Queria saber se vale apena mudar meu scott voltage 2015
+andrextr e pq to procurando uma bike boa de pedalar mais que eu possa fazer freeride et dh (tipo enduro com 180mm)
Liteville 601 ou uma montagem superleve da Banshee Darkside...
Um bocado estranho este conceito. Pelo que entendi a marca promove uma bicicleta para Enduro não proactiva em anti-squat!? Uma bicicleta de enduro pensada para descer portanto...
Sim, mesmo na Endorphin (trail), o sistema é o mesmo. O conceito da marca é não usar anti-squat para a suspensão ser independente da força da corrente e estar sempre activa, e o cliente é que controla se quer "bloquear" a suspensão ou não, usando o amortecedor. É uma filosofia que existe, mas no geral tem poucos adeptos. A maioria das marcas usa anti-squat nas suas bikes de XC/Enduro e mesmo nalgumas de DH. Abrço
Canole bike