Negative reviews!

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 36

  • @clarencehoover6748
    @clarencehoover6748 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

    I miss your content.
    Logical and thoughtful.
    Keep it up, brother!

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      Thanks. We've been posting on the web a lot more. Going to just three PDF issues next year, but more straight to web reviews, more TH-cam (I have a long way to go to catch the influencers - hahahah) and we have a second, premium site that just launched: www.tonepublications2.com
      I invite you to check it out at your leisure!

  • @fredericbeudot822
    @fredericbeudot822 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    I’ve been reading Tone since the 1st issue and your description of how gear sounds is one of the most straight forward and relatable to me - and I know, based on how you describe what you hear, as well as many pieces of equipment where I have been able to triangulate what you wrote with what I heard, that if you like some gear, i will likely too. I also know, that if JV Serinus likes something, I’ll likely find it overly analytical and fatiguing, or that Fremer and Atkinson’s tastes don’t align reliably with mine. I don’t expect negative reviews from any of you, just a description of what you are hearing as truthful as words allow, and then years of references give me a good idea of what to expect.
    And then there is the question of value… which in my view is too personal for reviewers to weigh in on. Someone may be fine with a folded steel black case, while someone else is willing to pay a lot more for the same electronics in an enclosure made from a block of aluminium machined to insane precision. Who’s to say one is wrong and the other isn’t? If they sound the same, the review should say that, and let people decide what they are willing to pay for it.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา

      Thank you! One of the toughest parts of this is the gear that I really really love. I always do my best to temper the enthusiasm, so I don't look like a fanboy, because said components might not be your cup of.

  • @rrd1975
    @rrd1975 2 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

    Thank you for the detailed ramble on negative vs positive reviews. You may have noticed some reviewers reporting pressure or even threats from manufacturers after less than stellar product reviews. It seems that reviewers sometimes have to walk a fine line. Thank you and Merry Christmas!

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      Thank you for the kind reply. The dCS thing was anomalous - and not in keeping with the company. That's all I'll speak to that. (the person responsible was let go)
      However to avoid any pressure from either side, this is why we work with the manufacturers on all of our reviews. There are no big surprises. And often on a piece of gear that is more on the technical side, or requires a fair amount of setup, I always invite the mfr here to help me set it up, so that both sides know we are getting good sound before the review even starts, It's so important I have the piece correctly installed in my system, and that I'm using it properly.
      This is another reason I own nearly all of my reference components. I don't have to worry about pointing out the positive of someone else's product if I OWN mine. But...when you have a lot of gear on loan, feathers can be ruffled. In 2000+ reviews, I have only been hassled by two manufacturers - NAD (because I liked the sound of our vintage 3020 integrated better than the current model they sent for review, and I wouldn't get the CEO meet and greet tickets for a Todd Rundgren show) and a speaker manufacturer from 20 years ago I can't even remember their name. They are out of business now, so it doesn't matter who.
      The principal of the company was here for 14 hours to set his speakers up, and then told me I had a shit room, a shit system and that his speakers would only deliver performance "with the worlds finest equipment." When I wrote basically that in the review, he was upset and we decided not to run the review. He said, "You can't print that, no one will buy my speakers!" So I didn't.
      That has been the only time I've gotten "out of line" with a mfr.
      An overly enthusiastic review is of use to no one. It doesn't help the mfr to produce gear that under delivers, it makes me look uninformed, and most important, it doesn't help YOU, because now you plunked down your hard earned cash on something that is way less than you expected. Makes for great clickbait on the front end, but eventually everyone loses.
      I don't think reviewers have to walk a fine line, but perhaps some of them need to be more diligent. You can't just keep calling everything "the best," "a game changer," "an end game product," "mind-blowing," or my favorite "I've got a $300 pair of speakers that DESTROYS most $10k speakers and re-defines high end audio."
      And, a lot of readers get in over their heads because they don't have enough experience with the components in question. I don't review mega turntables, because I don't have the expertise that someone like Michael Fremer does. He listens to $100k + tables on a regular (and has a better record collection than I do) so he knows what he's looking for. My analog experience stops at the $25-$50k table/arm combos, so me writing a review on a Tech Das would be useless to you, because I don't have any insight into that world.

  • @whatsbestforum
    @whatsbestforum 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Thank you for this thoughtfully expressed and succinct video, Jeff!

  • @MarkSchifter-o4r
    @MarkSchifter-o4r 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Keep doing what YOU DO Jeff

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Thanks dude! Im sure the arguments are close to follow! hahahah.

  • @HiFiInsider
    @HiFiInsider วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    i agree with your way but the kids would think you’re not honest if you don’t trash a product bc trash talk is honestly. lol….

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Why would I trash talk a decent product? And when "the kids" have listened to 1/10th the amount of gear I've OWNED, we'll talk. If my reviews are of no value, change the channel.

    • @HiFiInsider
      @HiFiInsider วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @ reviewers are a dying breed. folks prefer to follow and influencer now.

    • @GreekAudioGeek
      @GreekAudioGeek วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      You can be honest without "trashing" a product. It's easily done.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  19 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @@HiFiInsider We've known each other for a long time, so who would you consider an "influencer" in audio? Darko, Guttenberg, and Andrew Robinson?

  • @willemidaho
    @willemidaho 19 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Great shirt man.
    10/10.
    Had to hide my girl before she saw it.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  18 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      thanks! You're the only one that caught it! I always tease my wife PAM about the Spam character in the Emoji movie (because she's really perky) so she got me the shirt. :)

  • @poulpedersen359
    @poulpedersen359 3 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    reviewers is part of the sales chain knowingly or not

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  59 นาทีที่ผ่านมา

      Well, they do like to quote things in the hope it will sell things. However, I still hope that if you are looking at a specific thing and you enjoy one of our reviews, you'll read a few more, and spend time at a dealer (or with an online retailer that will let you return) really checking something out for yourself.
      My job should not be to sell products. However, I do hope our reviews will pique your interest (if it's something you are looking for) to go investigate.

  • @monrosj
    @monrosj วันที่ผ่านมา

    There is a lot of questionable quality gear coming out of China. Willsenton for example has shipped some amps that were not even built correctly. There is some great gear coming from China too.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา

      I did say MAJOR manufacturers.... :)

  • @GreekAudioGeek
    @GreekAudioGeek วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Hi Jeff - first nice job with videos. Making them is a lot harder than people think.
    With the utmost respect I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that there is no crappy gear made? Would that sentiment carry over to the gear in the recent Tom Evans debacle that is $25,000?
    I've had dozens of prices of gear come through here at all price points, and there is some great gear, and some absolute crap gear. Some sounds great, some sounds really poor. I had a pair of $45K speakers here recently that were horrendous.
    I've got 8 amps here right now for review, and one of them sound quite poor.
    I DO agree with you that just because I like or don't like something does not mean the next person will hear it the same way. And I ALWAYS say in my videos to never take my personal opinion on anything and always go listen for yourself.
    Again - full respect that you are taking the time and effort to make content and no ill intent on my behalf - just a respectful differing opinion.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      A: I don't consider the Tom Evans stuff gear from a real mfr. To me people that make 10 pieces a year are not real. There's a reason why there stuff hasn't been in our pages over the last 20 years... And to be clear AGAIN, I said I haven't seen any crappy gear from the majors. That's why I've stayed away from all of that stuff over the years. It's expensive and not always ready for prime time.
      What I'm saying, in the context of a piece of gear that passes muster to be reviewed in TONE (which means I'd write a check for it) there's been nothing crappy. It's not worth your time and not worth mine. And I prefer products that have solid dealer and mfr. support, because nearly everything breaks after a certain amount of time. Sorry I thought I made that clear.
      Truly all I'm saying is that if you are reviewing a legitimate piece of gear from a real mfr, the review should strive to be negative in tone (pun intended) because so many things are system dependent, room dependent and setup plays a major role. Because I take all the photos for TONE, I've listened to every single one of the 2,000+ pieces of gear we've had in our pages. And that doesn't include over 100 pieces of vintage gear.
      There has been an occasion that one of our reviewers has not been able to achieve the same results I have, because they have either a smaller room, or a limited number of additional components to mix and match to achieve system synergy. That's usually when I've written a few paragraphs of "additional listening."
      Just because you have a $45k pair of speakers that don't sound good to you, that doesn't mean the speakers suck. I've heard a lot of things sound dreadful in one setup and great in another. There are a number of speakers over the years that I've wanted to review but couldn't because my listening room was only 15 x 24. Now that I have a 24 x 36 foot room, it's a different movie. That's also why with any speaker I don't have extensive experience with setting up, I always have the mfr visit and show me how they like it set up. I've learned a lot about speaker setup from every one of them.
      And on the rare occasion that I have had a piece of gear that I could just NOT get to make good sound, I've sent it back. It's always been a minor mfr, and every year I make it a point to give a couple of new guys a shot just to see what they've come up with. They don't always pass muster.
      I made a solid decision NOT to review components that are too far off the beaten path because more often than not, they have no dealer support and not much mfr. support. To me if you have to spend more than $1000 on a no-name component, you're taking a risk that I wouldn't ask anyone to make. I think the only real negative review I've ever written was about the $1,500 McIntosh box that had nothing in it and the rack handles were an EXTRA $500.
      Make sense?

    • @sidesup8286
      @sidesup8286 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Does anyone remember the Reuben Guss speakers. His birthday is coming up on Christmas. What a day to be born. He has passed on now. Some of his huge speakers had 50 or 60+ drivers in them. He'd show up at Audio shows often. Very impressive in some ways, but far from accurate. Sonic sensationalism at its finest. Some people couldn't care less about accurate and some couldn't care less about having sonic sensationalism. What's crappy depends on what your idea of good sound is. When young people go to a club, the most important thing about the sound is that it be loud; real loud. A guy I talked with who played in a local rock band was told by the manager of a club, "If you're not good, then play loud."

    • @GreekAudioGeek
      @GreekAudioGeek วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@toneaudio178 Hi Jeff. Not really. Just seems like there are lost of exceptions to justify "everything is great".
      It sounds like your approach this from more of an "old guard" point of view for review, and others approach it from a more critical view rather than "every thing is great".
      There are products that are fairly universally considered poor sounding components by many - the speakers I referenced are one of them and of the 7 industry people I've checked with - not a single person likes them.
      I find it quite easy to say the sound of an item is not to my liking, but here is what I heard and here is who would like it and that the viewer needs to go listen to EVERY item - whether I like it or not - for themselves.
      Otherwise we just become a glorified commercial with little credibility if "everything is great."
      Again, much respect for you making videos and just a respectful differing of opinion. I'm not saying I am right - just my person non-factual take on things.
      Merry Christmas!

  • @sidesup8286
    @sidesup8286 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    A great place for the negative reviews to start, is with equipment that is priced in orbit. But those won't happen. There should be a reviewer who routinely compares $30k speakers, amps , turntables and digital gear with stuff under 2k or 3k and tell us what the differences are. In my mind with any speaker say, priced at 25k or 30k; they really have a lot of nerve pricing it like that. If it doesn't do all kind of things so wonderfully, that it's an entire new listening experience; that product is an awful product. For that much more it should part the clouds. If it doesn't, then it is not just an awful product, but it's bordering on grand theft of peoples money..That's a lot of money! Let's hope people are not that gullible to buy products like that based on reviews, not being able to hear it first. And let's hope that they didn't have to slave away for 5 or 6 years to come up with that kind of money. Even equipment that costs 10k each piece; for the amount it would take to put together a whole system; you'd be surprised what a nice luxury home you could buy, at a Foreclosure or Sherriff Sale. Audio equipment at those prices are just a plain bad value and worse.
    Negative reviews of lesser priced equipment can hurt smaller companies and the life's savings it took to come out with a product. Some of these companies make only one product; and a negative review would be life devastating .to someone. I would never give a negative review to a product of such a company. Especially if it is priced within reason. I'd just send it back. If I was a reviewer I don't think I would have the same feelings toward a product from some big well known money grabbing company whose brand is a status brand, and each year they surprise us with a new record price for something. The negative reviews should be for the most part, saved for them. "Just what does this thing actually do so much better for this huge amount of money more? A little better for a little more money is fair. A little better sound for huge amounts of money more is not accaptable IMO and is an outright shame.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      One thing I always mention is that "refinement costs money." Again you should NEVER buy ANYTHING because of a review (Mine included). Some of the super expensive gear is not neccessarily 10x better, however it is built in very limited quantities, which drives prices up further. Yet, in my experience, I've never heard a $3,500 speaker from a legitimate manufacturer outperform a $35k speaker from same.
      Another thing to keep in mind with stuff priced "in orbit" is that the customer buying many of these products WANTS that level of finish, because they live in a very design conscious environment. There are a lot of pretty darn good pieces of gear with modest casework that you can buy for less. And it's not just casework - the level of time it takes to hand match components, etc etc, and the amount of prototyping that kind of thing might only be amortized into 100 units, maybe less.
      Finally you have to remember that many manufacturers keep a fairly large cache of legacy parts on hand, should your product fail 15 years (or more) down the road. They don't all do it, but many do. That all has to be part of the equation.
      Just as precious few people walk out the door and buy a new Porsche GT3RS as their first sports car, most don't just walk into the hifi store and buy a $150k pair of speakers either - they usually work up to it, if that becomes their obsession. For all the people I've met over the years with mega systems, I don't know a single one that made a "gullible" purchase.
      All that being said, that's why we've stayed firmly committed to reviewing, entry level, mid price, and vintage gear as alternatives. Nearly everyone is on a journey with hifi, and no one I know has ever started their journey with an entry level system.
      To your final point, there have been a few products from small companies that you mention, that I have listened to, tried everything I could do to achieve great sound - and upon failing quietly sent them back for that very reason. The market has taken care of all those companies over the years, but I have not been the one to pound the nails on their coffins. I have NEVER reviewed a product in TONE, nor have I taken advertising dollars from a company who's products I wouldn't own. And if you've been following us for any length of time, you'll notice who's stuff I've owned over the years. Any mega expensive product I've reviewed has had to take it way over the top, and I feel that the ones we've given coverage certainly do that.

    • @sidesup8286
      @sidesup8286 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I've been doing mods on equipment for over 30 years. Maybe I've done more experiments than anyone and I do have very good "ears". If a very familiar recording sounds like something is sounding better; I hear it immediately. My mods are often 60+ step mods, but mostly using stuff around the house or stuff you can buy cheaply. So to me in particular, the high prices are ridiculous, not necessary and not justified. I have tripled sound quality and then some, on most of my equip..Maybe I've quadrupled it on a few things. If some of these high priced companies discovered that a paper clip or gum band used in the right place can make a major improvement, I'm sure they'd still tack on thousands of dollars more and call it the Mk.II version. The best sounding, sweetest sounding transistors ever made were V Fets; superior to J Fets and WAY superior to Mosfets. And V Fets were from the 1970s. Nelson Pass was thrilled to find some NOS ones in a Sony warehouse. Also he was thrilled to find some really old 1950s/60s JBL speakers. Has audio sound quality really gone forward much, if a guy like that is enthralled with how great some vintage stuff sounds?
      I never bought into this "you gotta pay a king's ransom to get great sound". Sad that so many people believe that. I have the best sound quality I have ever heard. Maybe there's something better better.out there, but this same level of sound quality has stopped on many systems of "different" equipment I've modded. It would be a coincidence if all these different systems "stopped" getting better at the exact same point. The quality of the recordings are always the limiting factor. You cannot go past the inherent quality of the recording. What is there, is there; and that's it.

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@sidesup8286 Modded gear is irrelevant to this discussion, because it's not a valid comparison to anything. You don't have the labor cost, overhead, employee cost, warranty/support cost that a major mfr does. So substituting a $50 capacitor for a $5 one doesn't pencil out. And Nelson's love for vintage gear (as is mine) doesn't mean said components are better. I absolutely love my vintage Acoustat 2+2s, with a stack of Nakamichi 600 components to keep the memory of where I was and what I was listening to back then firmly in place. I was thrilled last year to get a well taken care of pair of ESS AMT-1s like I had in college. Do they sound as good as a $12k pair of Fink Team Kim's (which use a highly evolved AMT tweeter). Nope. But it does show A: how good they were in the day, and where the DNA of the original Heil design inspired Fink. It's all good, and its all fun.
      Are those $2,000/pair Acoustats (then) $148,000/pair less than my Clarisys Auditiorium Plus ribbons? No but it's a massive difference, and you can't get that sound for $2k (but you can get a small pair of Clarisys for $20k and adjusted for inflation, not a bad deal. Not to mention those Acoustats sound incredible driven by the big Pass Monos.
      If your world stops at the components you've modded, it's a small universe. A comment like "you have to pay a king's ransom for good sound" is irrelevant because there is no point of reference. You can build a musically engaging hifi system for $2-5k all day long, especially if you carefully pick a few great used components. But you aren't going to get the sound I've got with a $400k system for $5k. It's not going to happen. But there's nothing wrong with either choice.
      So much of this depends on your room, your recordings, your ability to set a system up properly, and what your meal plan is. Everyone has a different level of engagement. But this is really off the topic of what I have offered in the video.
      When you can build gear at the level of Nagra, Luxman, Pass, or any of the others, we'll talk. it's just like the guys I know that "mod" their cars. They always improve one aspect of performance for everything else, but are very proud of it because they did it themselves and put something over on the mfr. I highly doubt you've learned anything modding gear on your kitchen table, that the majors haven't tried and discarded because it's not sustainable.
      And remember, modded gear is worth ZERO on the secondary market. Additionally, no manufacturer wants to work on something in or out of warranty that's been modded by a random person. There's a reason for that. It's one thing to re-cap an old Marantz, it's another to take what the best mfrs. have done and take it to another level.

    • @sidesup8286
      @sidesup8286 วันที่ผ่านมา

      You can think your 400k gear sounds better than my modded gear if you want to, or if it makes you feel comfortable to believe that, but I say you can reach the fidelity limit of the source recordings for a very small fraction of that. Which means a sh*tload of money thrown away; at least.on sonic terms. Of course not many people out there who've taken modding to the level I have. Maybe all their moddibg has made a 40% improvement. Mine over the years has made around 10 times that. So my "universe" (as you say) is not so limited as you guess it is. It is only limited by how many creative ideas I've gotten over the years and will get in the future. There are down to Earth reasons why "some"equipment that costs 6 figures sounds as good as it does. Someone as delving as myself can look inside equipment; see what they've done, figure it out and replicate a lot of things. Borrowing good ideas is something that all manufacturers do, and I do it too, but I'd say most of my ideas are unique ideas of my own; and I'm sure at least many of them have not been thought of before. There's a whole world of ideas and the chances that our ideas are all in common would be about the same chance as 2 mosquitos colliding in mid air in a massive jungle.
      If the equipment of today is so superior, I doubt if people like Nelson Pass would be so impressed by vintage stuff, and would spend so much time listening to their music on it. I find that 30% better sound quality overall (which is a lot), makes everything below it sound like a toy. They don't just "like" the sound of older equipment, it is close enough that it doesn't sound like a toy at all in comparison. And might even surpass modern gear in certain ways. I think sound quality versus cost, even sound quality achieved mostly by modding, is very relevant, to all but the extremely well to do; which you seem to be. People without that much money do not have to give up & resign themselves to lesser sound than the well to do; with enough experimentation and creativity. I have listened to lots of high end gear & I know in comparison to my modded gear; that is so.

    • @sidesup8286
      @sidesup8286 วันที่ผ่านมา

      As an add on: you are lucky to be able to afford equipment like that. I wish I could spend on all kind of different things like that.Although knowing what I know, not that much would be spent on audio. One thing that almost no one thinks of is that the product that reaches market, even a company's top of the line stuff is not the best equipment they know how to make. I'm sure the head designer at Luxman (a great company) probably listens to music on an amplifier of his own design that has more attention to detail and would be more labor intensive than what would feasible to bring to market. We get to hear what would be feasible to bring to market; NOT the best amp they know how to build. For instance if you look inside a lot of gear you see all these wires tied together with those little white plastic ties. Sonically that is not tbe best way to do things. But tying them together like that gives them more stabilty in shipment, and clears them out of the way to be able to see the circuit board better and to get to stuff on the circuit board if needed. Some circuit boards you see all the parts when the top is taken off and some are upside down or standing up vertically.
      I think once you get to the point of your middle instruments and lead vocal sounding like they are on the ceiling, (which I reached about 18 years ago), you have pretty good signal integrity. As sound quality goes "up" so does the sound. I've gone wel beyond that level of sound quality I had back then now. Maybe double that. But I think if someone gets to around that point, any further is welcome, and enjoyable. But you're probably not goung to enjoy your stereo double as much. Spatiality is only one aspect I realize, but that is the one aspect that improves the most. The sound keeps getting more and more expansive. Like you are listening to a performance on an elevated stage.
      If you can forgive a few things like a smaller sweet spot and not having the absolute deepest most impactful bass or dynamics, some vintage KLH model 9 els speakers refurbed or still in immaculate shape from 1969 with a good 1970s reel to reel tape deck with output adjustment, straight into a power amp will let you hear more magic than most systems on the market today under 25k, and many way above that figure. 2 pairs of KLH 9's sound even better. A system like that used, you may be able to put together for well under $5,000.

  • @mjot2360
    @mjot2360 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Reviewers DON'T do a good job describing the kind of sound they like. This would benefit everyone involved by allowing your audience to accept or dismiss you right from the get-go. Then, when you say this piece of equipment sounds okay but "it's not for me," we know what you mean. Reviewers are not transparent regarding the sound they're after. Many say everything is great, and that's a load of 💩

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา

      I've always tried to make that clear for my readers as much as possible. And conversely, it's important to still describe a component that might not be my personal cup of, because it might be EXACTLY what you are looking for. Which brings us back to my original point!
      And again, "it's not for me" is irrelevant. That's not my job to pass that judgement on the product. That's the whole point of this video. I'm not reviewing gear for me - I'm trying to help find YOU the gear YOU want. I have the gear I want. :)

    • @GreekAudioGeek
      @GreekAudioGeek วันที่ผ่านมา

      Well said, @mjot

    • @toneaudio178
      @toneaudio178  วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@GreekAudioGeek again this has nothing to do with me. I've always made it very clear to my readers what I like and don't like in my own personal system and why. Again, I'm not reviewing gear for me. I have three systems that I really enjoy and are good enough to work as reference components by the others are judged. A reference component is just that - it's not THE BEST, it's a stationary point. Some things either reveal more music, or reveal music differently than my reference components. Whenever possible, I try and put that in perspective, so if someone has heard one of the other choices, hopefully that will help make things clearer.