I appreciate how thoughtful your processes are and how well you have not only analyzed issues but how you have solved those problems. Thank you so much for these videos. They are inspirational.
Wow! Well I’ve never heard of anything like this technique before, but now I’ve seen this it makes total sense. I’ve seen people go to great lengths to allow timber to reach some kind of equilibrium in the process of milling timber for a project, sometimes over multiple stages, to allow the varioius internal stresses within wood to stabilise before they begin shaping it into the various parts, and even adjustments to or simply giving parts time to ‘relax’ further after more wood is removed in the process of shaping parts. All of which makes total sense and requires patience many don’t possess. What I’ve never seen is any form of temporary glue up process like this, but given the amount of material taken away between the ‘paper glue up’ and and this 2nd glue up stage, it makes complete sense to allow any extra shifting to take place to remove any element of unnecessary internal stress before the plate is glue together ‘once and for all’. Aside from the risk of cracking further down the line with movement from humidity changes, I wonder if there is also be some impact on how the finished plate resonates, without that built in stress? Whether the difference is audible, may be another thing, but I take my hat off to you for such a well thought out and executed approach. May I ask, is this something you picked up from violin makers, or elsewhere, or is this a method you came up with?
Thanks! Wood moves, and there's nothing we can do to stop it, although we might be able to sneak up on it, and reduce our risk, which is what this is all about. I first was bothered/puzzled as a young repairman by all the center joint separations I saw at the plate ends in many of the archtops I was tasked with working on. I wondered why this was so common on carved guitars, and less so on flat guitars. Later, trying to machine two-piece figured maple Fly Guitar bodies, I was confronted with a terrible failure rate of joint separation. Finally it dawned on me, and we started gluing the two halves with paper bag material, and "cooking" the rough carved body blanks at 90F for awhile, then regluing. End of problem! Lesson learned! Now I do it to all my plates, just to be sure, and it's not so much extra work, really.
Thank you Ken for such generosity! I get less hours of sleep when I come to your Archtoppery channel ; ) Really am inspired by the way you do things. Best, T.
yep, I was absolutely admiring those thumbscrews. Mr. Parker, these videos are amazing! Thanks so much for putting these together and sharing them with us. Your work is always an inspiration.
For us arborists, your work enhances our understanding of how wood moves; whether it’s on a tree during a windstorm or being worked on the bench. Your understanding of how hollowing the center affects the periphery is so simple that everyone else has missed it. Kind of like how a progressively leaning tree will flake bark on the tension side and form rolls at the base of the compression side. I need an industrial size shipment of popcorn if you are going to keep these coming. Awesome. Thank you
I had that job for 15 years, which supported my study and experimental guitar making. Glad Archtoppery is useful! Really, I'm trying to create the channel I yearned for when I was 22.
This is all utterly fascinating, and that line of squeeze-out was so satisfying... Like pouring oil on walnut. :) Thanks for putting these videos out there!!
Hello! Humidoty variations is why I didnt bring any of my good classical guitars when i moved from my very tropical and Caribbean town in Venezuela to Chicago. I am certain that those pampered things wouldn't have survived landing in Ohare during a cold February midnight.
I got 1:18.25 from the moment the syringe left the jar to the moment your hand left the last minor adjustment (in which I heard a satisfying little *click*). Nice.
I, as an amateur guitar builder, thinking of taking on a Benedetto 17 inch build, cannot imagine the time, effort, and mentation necessary to come up with your design and build process!
Thanks! Let me suggest that you copy a post-Loar L-5 from the late 20's instead. This is The seminal archtop instrument, and if D'Angelico thought it was good enough to copy, probably you can too! Do it one better, and use an oval sound hole like a Gibson L-4. I once got the chance to ogle and play a mahogany D'Angelico with an oval hole, and it was the best of his guitars I ever played! The sides and back were made from spectacular curly mahogany, the only example I ever saw of his use of this material! An Amazing guitar!! If anyone knows where it is, please pass it along, I'd love to see and measure it!!!
Thanks Ken! Can you please explain why you plane (shoot) the two plates “separately”? I thought the methodology was to plane them both at the same time (together) guaranteeing a perfect and practically invisible center seam match. I understand these plates are not flat but rather arched and I have no idea how you would shoot (plane) them simultaneously. Wonderful video tutorial. Thank you Ken.
The methodology you cite works perfectly, is an ancient wood joiner's trick, a get out of jail free card! It works best on fairly thin parallel stock, where it's just brilliant. I could shoot the plates this way and get a good result, but thin, mostly carved archtop guitar plates back-to-back would be hard to support for the super-precision planing job. I much prefer the method I demonstrate here mostly because it affords every bit of control in the world. Here's a great example of what might be the most critical, and potentially highly stressed joint in the instrument. Please, Please, just let's get it right so we can forget about it.
I gotta think about this one. It seems like a lot of effort. Plus I don't have edge clamps and 50 bucks a piece, it's quite a lot. I do like the slight hollow you can create so the outsides surely stick together, you can't do that with rough lumber that easily. Hide glue seems like a good idea. But having to hurry this much doesn't appeal either. Maybe I can come up with a way to make these edge clamps.
Many of us make our own tools and clamps, it's part of the game! Remember that hot glue has been working for furniture makers for 5000 years or more, and it's all about getting used to using it, just like any tool. Some "open" time is gained with a warm shop and warm work, of course dry clamping and planning are key, as is a helper. It may seem like a lot of effort, but it's the only way to get a completely invisible glue line that just won't quit, and many of us won't have it any other way. Once you get a bit of experience with it, it seems like a friend. Try to to think of it as a hurry so much, and maybe try to see it as a chance to show your stuff.
Totally jealous of your machine shop (I see a Bridgeport and a lathe). Thank you for explaining your clamps that you made. I am putting those on my list of “stuff I need to make”. Your videos are indispensable to anyone interested in guitar making. Just curious, what are the tweaks that you made to the violin clamps that make them more suitable to you? Wondering if I could just buy a pair and tweak them as necessary.
Fortunately for us, machine shop tools that require an operator instead of a program have become ridiculously cheap. Save up and get 'em! Probably I could have just bought the "crack clamps" from a supplier, but I made them (full disclosure) because I can. When I was about to film this episode, I looked online and was sheepishly taken aback by how cheap the Chinese ones are. I think they would work fine, although I take pride in the fact that mine HAVE NO PLAY IN THEM AT ALL, but it probably doesn't matter. Just saying, if I needed another pair, I would just get these, and go back to guitarmaking... www.ebay.com/itm/304338316057?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item46dbfa2b19:g:O44AAOSwSelhC2-P&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4N2i%2BVyG53eKJuiFwq6CMyCLzqM%2BFqofsUmAlY86ISnpr3lBpCB5oZzVhhotNvy3v61rS9uzblGAtINBZEAz94N12MHSLHnabcDiPwiKD83Du3wrhulBZHrH4g8vEl0nvThkU36Lih3%2BI6SetselYCgbXinD5F%2BHextSeXKuOz%2Bsw3g8rYAx%2Bl1nzy2f9jniE8eBXwhIAGjkNGzmInvnXUGdshmAT8CaI4yqxQ50p1Hy%2BKjvoiaIPPwKaeyZIvCOREdkYLX4iC%2BnyKFK9pb6y3xh0NZx%2B5GBnGG%2F9qva5H8d%7Ctkp%3ABFBMluTEhZBg Likewise, check these out... www.ebay.com/itm/333593498309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4dabb8d2c5:g:05YAAOSwv3lgmy76&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4MFbbqaZMbN0rDGfkG2BjWrfDUiJGUtZf45khh6XCJdmgNIWYiXskdSkAK9iA6TfXfhzhHalrPWUe69GT1Pbb9AEotLxxPVz5BYdAKnQp04%2FhgHR%2BWmBI847EuBJfRqSptLoVgy9UgQ21v2e2TNAvs5bFYa4gEyMKjkXw3awbJZV0jnT6TYIo5vWTgjzGegAkLZ8L4OG4t9ZlquMnGbYdSSwB7PyqgNSHMS6BQu%2F8E6S6cG7Jy07MyFDmvk1U3Izo9dfnRnZ6Mnp86KqwQo%2B%2BPmLBnk%2FxhATG5JF45E4pPbb%7Ctkp%3ABFBMnIPChZBg
Hi, so in this video, you are regluing the plates after rough arching the inside. Is that normally when you do it, or do you sometimes wait until the inside is basically finished carved to dimensions (or is that too late)? Thanks for all these wonderful videos!
Hi Ken I assume the hide glue overflow doesn’t soak into the wood. Any special process for removing the overflow afterward, other than sanding, scraping and the occasional blowtorch? As always thanks so much for all the knowledge you share.
This is just not a problem. You can wipe off / squeegee off the excess with a rag or an old credit card Since you'll have wood to remove from both inside and outside, it all works out fine. Do Not try to wipe hide glue off with a wet rag, it may distort the plate and make a mess. As for "soaking into the wood", much is made of this, but aside from water, liquids just aren't able to penetrate wood more than a few thousandths, and usually aren't an issue.
Hi Ken, I’m looking to purchase a no. 8 Stanley. My understanding is that most all ‘used’ no. 8 planes are not dead-flat. Can you please tell me what important areas need to be perfectly flat in order to successfully use this plane on a shooting board as you show in this video? I read it only needs to be flat along 3 points (the toe, mouth and heel). Thank you Ken.
Look carefully at the sole, and try to find an old example. These were beautifully made, and the older ones are likely to be close to perfect. As demand fell off when electric powered hand tools replaced human powered ones, quality suffered, so probably stay away from the later ones. Here's a film that may help you understand how to true a cast iron surface that needs it, studio.th-cam.com/users/videoIgM-V2KpsRA/edit The other method is to find a big chunk of 1/2" or so thick plate glass, which are remarkably flat. The plane bottom can be lapped on the glass with loose grain abrasives and water, although it's slow going. Actually any kind of precision work on cast iron is slow going! You can get Lie Nielsen or Veritas #7 and #8 planes, but in my opinion, they are too heavy to be good tools, although the bottoms will be perfectly flat. I think it's more fun to adopt and rehab an antique Stanley or Bailey. Don't worry about corrugated soles or Bedrock tools too much, the secret of these tools is the truth of the sole and the wicked sharpness of the finely set iron.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440Thank you Ken. Lot’s of great advice here. I picked up ‘two’ Stanley no. 8s. One from 1867 (type 1) and one from the early 1960s. Both are very flat but I need to spend more time tuning them up. Been learning about how to flatten the bottoms. The link you provided is incredible. Never knew you level a steel surface as you displayed. Always learn a lot watching your videos. Thanks Ken!
We use what we have, right? I like it mostly because it's the right height, plus I never lose track of it, as its too heavy to move easily. Great tool. Cheap! No more guessing about flat and straight!
As far as I know, this is my wrinkle, but experience has shown that it's really difficult to pull a uniquely new technique of any kind in instrument making, as the field is ancient, and populated with brilliant contributors all trying to solve the same problems.
I appreciate how thoughtful your processes are and how well you have not only analyzed issues but how you have solved those problems. Thank you so much for these videos. They are inspirational.
My Pleasure! So glad you're digging them! Stay tuned.
Wow! Well I’ve never heard of anything like this technique before, but now I’ve seen this it makes total sense. I’ve seen people go to great lengths to allow timber to reach some kind of equilibrium in the process of milling timber for a project, sometimes over multiple stages, to allow the varioius internal stresses within wood to stabilise before they begin shaping it into the various parts, and even adjustments to or simply giving parts time to ‘relax’ further after more wood is removed in the process of shaping parts. All of which makes total sense and requires patience many don’t possess.
What I’ve never seen is any form of temporary glue up process like this, but given the amount of material taken away between the ‘paper glue up’ and and this 2nd glue up stage, it makes complete sense to allow any extra shifting to take place to remove any element of unnecessary internal stress before the plate is glue together ‘once and for all’. Aside from the risk of cracking further down the line with movement from humidity changes, I wonder if there is also be some impact on how the finished plate resonates, without that built in stress? Whether the difference is audible, may be another thing, but I take my hat off to you for such a well thought out and executed approach. May I ask, is this something you picked up from violin makers, or elsewhere, or is this a method you came up with?
Thanks! Wood moves, and there's nothing we can do to stop it, although we might be able to sneak up on it, and reduce our risk, which is what this is all about.
I first was bothered/puzzled as a young repairman by all the center joint separations I saw at the plate ends in many of the archtops I was tasked with working on. I wondered why this was so common on carved guitars, and less so on flat guitars. Later, trying to machine two-piece figured maple Fly Guitar bodies, I was confronted with a terrible failure rate of joint separation. Finally it dawned on me, and we started gluing the two halves with paper bag material, and "cooking" the rough carved body blanks at 90F for awhile, then regluing. End of problem! Lesson learned! Now I do it to all my plates, just to be sure, and it's not so much extra work, really.
Thank you Ken for such generosity! I get less hours of sleep when I come to your Archtoppery channel ; ) Really am inspired by the way you do things. Best, T.
Thierry! Happy to hear you're watching! Thanks for your kind words! Live long and prosper!
yep, I was absolutely admiring those thumbscrews. Mr. Parker, these videos are amazing! Thanks so much for putting these together and sharing them with us. Your work is always an inspiration.
It truly is my pleasure. This is so fun.
This is the greatest information a guy like me could get. Thank you-thank you- thank you.
So happy to help. Lots of the simple realizations are hard won. It's a pleasure to share them.
I'm sold on the hide glue. Thanks Ken!
It's great stuff. Look up rubbed joints and hammer veneering.
I love the simple pleasure of hearing a sharp plane make a clean full cut.
bliss! I Agree! Sound is such a rich sense if you employ it!
A great luthier and a great toolmaker. You've got it all Ken.
É
Many Thanks!
For us arborists, your work enhances our understanding of how wood moves; whether it’s on a tree during a windstorm or being worked on the bench. Your understanding of how hollowing the center affects the periphery is so simple that everyone else has missed it. Kind of like how a progressively leaning tree will flake bark on the tension side and form rolls at the base of the compression side. I need an industrial size shipment of popcorn if you are going to keep these coming. Awesome. Thank you
these vids are just the best... thanks ken 👍
Thanks!
Thanks for taking time do these videos! I've worked many years doing repairs to make money. This is inspirational.
I had that job for 15 years, which supported my study and experimental guitar making.
Glad Archtoppery is useful! Really, I'm trying to create the channel I yearned for when I was 22.
This is all utterly fascinating, and that line of squeeze-out was so satisfying... Like pouring oil on walnut. :) Thanks for putting these videos out there!!
Gotta love that hot protein glue! You're most welcome.
Me: “those knobs looks pretty cool”
Ken: “some of you might be admiring these knobs”
You are correct sir
Ha! Here they are...www.thomasnet.com/catalogs/category/693026-2154-3001459/innovative-components/press-on-thumbscrew-knobs/
Beautiful solutions for shooting, gluing and clamping. Thanks again (:>)
Thanks! Little things seem to make all the difference, no?
Machinist who works with wood. Unicorn! Such fun. So valuable. So many disciplines that make a great guitar. Thank you Mr. Parker.
Thanks for digging it, my pleasure.
amazing! I need to get myself some hide glue.
Correct! You and everyone else! Magical stuff. Sometimes simple just can't be beat.
Stew Mac is one source.
I love hide glue !
Me Too!
Hello! Humidoty variations is why I didnt bring any of my good classical guitars when i moved from my very tropical and Caribbean town in Venezuela to Chicago. I am certain that those pampered things wouldn't have survived landing in Ohare during a cold February midnight.
Humidity is a big challenge! I hope your instruments are safe and sound!
I got 1:18.25 from the moment the syringe left the jar to the moment your hand left the last minor adjustment (in which I heard a satisfying little *click*). Nice.
Ha! Thanks for keeping us honest, not much time for a false move!
I, as an amateur guitar builder, thinking of taking on a Benedetto 17 inch build, cannot imagine the time, effort, and mentation necessary to come up with your design and build process!
Thanks! Let me suggest that you copy a post-Loar L-5 from the late 20's instead. This is The seminal archtop instrument, and if D'Angelico thought it was good enough to copy, probably you can too! Do it one better, and use an oval sound hole like a Gibson L-4. I once got the chance to ogle and play a mahogany D'Angelico with an oval hole, and it was the best of his guitars I ever played! The sides and back were made from spectacular curly mahogany, the only example I ever saw of his use of this material!
An Amazing guitar!! If anyone knows where it is, please pass it along, I'd love to see and measure it!!!
those clamps are ingenious. I must make a set of those
I added a couple minor tweaks to the traditional clamps that violin family makers have been using for many generations. Glad you like them!
Thanks Ken! Can you please explain why you plane (shoot) the two plates “separately”? I thought the methodology was to plane them both at the same time (together) guaranteeing a perfect and practically invisible center seam match. I understand these plates are not flat but rather arched and I have no idea how you would shoot (plane) them simultaneously. Wonderful video tutorial. Thank you Ken.
The methodology you cite works perfectly, is an ancient wood joiner's trick, a get out of jail free card!
It works best on fairly thin parallel stock, where it's just brilliant. I could shoot the plates this way and get a good result, but thin, mostly carved archtop guitar plates back-to-back would be hard to support for the super-precision planing job. I much prefer the method I demonstrate here mostly because it affords every bit of control in the world. Here's a great example of what might be the most critical, and potentially highly stressed joint in the instrument. Please, Please, just let's get it right so we can forget about it.
I gotta think about this one. It seems like a lot of effort. Plus I don't have edge clamps and 50 bucks a piece, it's quite a lot. I do like the slight hollow you can create so the outsides surely stick together, you can't do that with rough lumber that easily. Hide glue seems like a good idea. But having to hurry this much doesn't appeal either. Maybe I can come up with a way to make these edge clamps.
Many of us make our own tools and clamps, it's part of the game! Remember that hot glue has been working for furniture makers for 5000 years or more, and it's all about getting used to using it, just like any tool. Some "open" time is gained with a warm shop and warm work, of course dry clamping and planning are key, as is a helper.
It may seem like a lot of effort, but it's the only way to get a completely invisible glue line that just won't quit, and many of us won't have it any other way. Once you get a bit of experience with it, it seems like a friend. Try to to think of it as a hurry so much, and maybe try to see it as a chance to show your stuff.
Thanks for all this lessons, gives an insight on the craft. Whre can I get that hide glue?
This is the best supplier.
Most instrument builders use 192 gram clarified.
bjornhideglue.com/
Totally jealous of your machine shop (I see a Bridgeport and a lathe). Thank you for explaining your clamps that you made. I am putting those on my list of “stuff I need to make”. Your videos are indispensable to anyone interested in guitar making. Just curious, what are the tweaks that you made to the violin clamps that make them more suitable to you? Wondering if I could just buy a pair and tweak them as necessary.
Fortunately for us, machine shop tools that require an operator instead of a program have become ridiculously cheap. Save up and get 'em!
Probably I could have just bought the "crack clamps" from a supplier, but I made them (full disclosure) because I can. When I was about to film this episode, I looked online and was sheepishly taken aback by how cheap the Chinese ones are. I think they would work fine, although I take pride in the fact that mine HAVE NO PLAY IN THEM AT ALL, but it probably doesn't matter.
Just saying, if I needed another pair, I would just get these, and go back to guitarmaking...
www.ebay.com/itm/304338316057?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item46dbfa2b19:g:O44AAOSwSelhC2-P&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4N2i%2BVyG53eKJuiFwq6CMyCLzqM%2BFqofsUmAlY86ISnpr3lBpCB5oZzVhhotNvy3v61rS9uzblGAtINBZEAz94N12MHSLHnabcDiPwiKD83Du3wrhulBZHrH4g8vEl0nvThkU36Lih3%2BI6SetselYCgbXinD5F%2BHextSeXKuOz%2Bsw3g8rYAx%2Bl1nzy2f9jniE8eBXwhIAGjkNGzmInvnXUGdshmAT8CaI4yqxQ50p1Hy%2BKjvoiaIPPwKaeyZIvCOREdkYLX4iC%2BnyKFK9pb6y3xh0NZx%2B5GBnGG%2F9qva5H8d%7Ctkp%3ABFBMluTEhZBg
Likewise, check these out...
www.ebay.com/itm/333593498309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item4dabb8d2c5:g:05YAAOSwv3lgmy76&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4MFbbqaZMbN0rDGfkG2BjWrfDUiJGUtZf45khh6XCJdmgNIWYiXskdSkAK9iA6TfXfhzhHalrPWUe69GT1Pbb9AEotLxxPVz5BYdAKnQp04%2FhgHR%2BWmBI847EuBJfRqSptLoVgy9UgQ21v2e2TNAvs5bFYa4gEyMKjkXw3awbJZV0jnT6TYIo5vWTgjzGegAkLZ8L4OG4t9ZlquMnGbYdSSwB7PyqgNSHMS6BQu%2F8E6S6cG7Jy07MyFDmvk1U3Izo9dfnRnZ6Mnp86KqwQo%2B%2BPmLBnk%2FxhATG5JF45E4pPbb%7Ctkp%3ABFBMnIPChZBg
Hi, so in this video, you are regluing the plates after rough arching the inside. Is that normally when you do it, or do you sometimes wait until the inside is basically finished carved to dimensions (or is that too late)? Thanks for all these wonderful videos!
Have a look here and see if it answers your questions...
Arched Plates 01 Plate Gluing
Hi Ken
I assume the hide glue overflow doesn’t soak into the wood. Any special process for removing the overflow afterward, other than sanding, scraping and the occasional blowtorch?
As always thanks so much for all the knowledge you share.
This is just not a problem. You can wipe off / squeegee off the excess with a rag or an old credit card Since you'll have wood to remove from both inside and outside, it all works out fine. Do Not try to wipe hide glue off with a wet rag, it may distort the plate and make a mess. As for "soaking into the wood", much is made of this, but aside from water, liquids just aren't able to penetrate wood more than a few thousandths, and usually aren't an issue.
Thanks
I appreciate the reply
Hi Ken, I’m looking to purchase a no. 8 Stanley. My understanding is that most all ‘used’ no. 8 planes are not dead-flat. Can you please tell me what important areas need to be perfectly flat in order to successfully use this plane on a shooting board as you show in this video? I read it only needs to be flat along 3 points (the toe, mouth and heel). Thank you Ken.
Look carefully at the sole, and try to find an old example. These were beautifully made, and the older ones are likely to be close to perfect. As demand fell off when electric powered hand tools replaced human powered ones, quality suffered, so probably stay away from the later ones.
Here's a film that may help you understand how to true a cast iron surface that needs it,
studio.th-cam.com/users/videoIgM-V2KpsRA/edit
The other method is to find a big chunk of 1/2" or so thick plate glass, which are remarkably flat. The plane bottom can be lapped on the glass with loose grain abrasives and water, although it's slow going. Actually any kind of precision work on cast iron is slow going!
You can get Lie Nielsen or Veritas #7 and #8 planes, but in my opinion, they are too heavy to be good tools, although the bottoms will be perfectly flat.
I think it's more fun to adopt and rehab an antique Stanley or Bailey. Don't worry about corrugated soles or Bedrock tools too much, the secret of these tools is the truth of the sole and the wicked sharpness of the finely set iron.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440Thank you Ken. Lot’s of great advice here. I picked up ‘two’ Stanley no. 8s. One from 1867 (type 1) and one from the early 1960s. Both are very flat but I need to spend more time tuning them up. Been learning about how to flatten the bottoms. The link you provided is incredible. Never knew you level a steel surface as you displayed. Always learn a lot watching your videos. Thanks Ken!
Yes, we use a lot of hot hide glue and there is no toxic Phenol like in prepared fish glue.
Just so.
Of course you're going to use the surface plate as a shooting board :)
We use what we have, right?
I like it mostly because it's the right height, plus I never lose track of it, as its too heavy to move easily. Great tool. Cheap! No more guessing about flat and straight!
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 Totally!
Wow that was an eye-opener.. Is this technique unique to you or do others use it?
As far as I know, this is my wrinkle, but experience has shown that it's really difficult to pull a uniquely new technique of any kind in instrument making, as the field is ancient, and populated with brilliant contributors all trying to solve the same problems.
Hide glue from now on for moi
It's a fantastic adhesive, and it has been so for 400 years!
Oops, I typed wrong. 4000 years, first used in egypt!