I think that part of the set up is also how the speakers make contact with the floor. I have Tannoy D900's, which are big speakers and have a great bass but they were boomy. I still like them and have them since 2001. For years I was not actively improving the system but the old virus caught on again. After moving to a new house a few years ago I started improvin my system : a new amplifier, a new dac, a ddc, a seperate transformer for the pre amplifier, new cables, direct powerline from the fuse box, bitperfect playback software etc. The sound improved significantly but was still boomy. Wall treatment helped, The speakers were on spikes on big concrete slabs with felt on the slabs. After some research I ordered IsoAcoustics Gaias (no productplacement, have no connection) and the boomy sound disappeared. The overall stereo image improved tremendously. So in my opinion, it is a combination of so many factors, try several tweaks and see which ones work and then progress.
@@bruceaitken1918 I've not heard quartet used in the context of a series of books (or movies) before, more in the context of four musicians in a group (or a group of four people in general).
@@RCO-lr4xt Both terms are correct, but (after doing some research) I will agree that tetralogy is more common than quadrilogy (although I've only personally ever heard of the latter).
Try spreading the speakers out more than you ever thought you would need to or want to. If your wife has to walk around one bringing in the tray of iced tea, so be it. I finally spread mine out, and the actual size of the sound doubled, and it sounds more balanced than ever. Apologize for the wife joke, but the point is that some concessions may have to be made in order for you to be happy with your sound.
Hallo Paul, I had this week an experience with my set up. My new speakers wouldn't sound right for weeks and I decided to buy a slate plate 5 cm high and put the plate under each of my speakers. . It sounds now unbelievably different and better. I never believed that it makes such a difference . Thanks for the video and all your work.
I was going to say the same thing. Everyone loves to buy equipment, but no one wants to spend money properly treating the room. The room is the most important component in audio playback system.
I like this answer because it's free. Setup is about moving stuff around to get the best sound. And tweaking speaker placement sometimes has the effect of making the system sound like a new component has been added. And for a couple of bucks, to get the expert instructions on setup, McGowan's The Stereo book is good.
Set-up is massive. Whether with my Magnepans or my Klipsch(s)....I've had my mind blown by some of the most subtle shifts of speaker, or seating, position. DAC would be next too.
dac 100% biggest difference i have seen in my setup tda1541a s1 dac diy opens up really big sound stage micro stuf in the sound i have never heard before
I have the Olimpica Nova 3 in my office. Absolutely it's about setup. Get them away from the wall by 18in. Point them at your listening position directly. Then toe them out. When they start to have a center image, mark all feet with tape. Then point them exactly parallel to the room walls. Toe them in till you have a perfect center. Mark with tape. Place them equally between the tape marks. If that does not fix it... By a Bryston amp, and just be happy.
Just adding! I have your book and tracks… play with positioning and modifying tilt and positioning… better… but not yet what I really enjoy… I also have the Genesis ARC DSP… I spent a lot of hours adjusting and trying after reading every available documentation… something still missing! And my room is treated with diffuser and absorbers… next step should be streamer and DAC… thanks😜
Hi everybody. Concerning the name of a four-part book series, if opera can serve as a reference (anyway they all have a “libreto”), Richard Wagner opus magnus The Rheingold is referred to as The Tetralogy. With regard to the subject of this video, I agree with Paul that setup is key to taking advantage of any system’s posssibilities (BTW, I include the listening room in the system, and maybe it’s one of the most important “components”).
OMG!! Don't you realize that this is an AUDIOPHILE channel????? EQ is blasphemy!!( I use one in my system too) But they claim even tone controls are a no no. Don't know where all these purists come from, but they sure seem to spend massive amounts of money to own a pure "simple" system...lol
Before you start using the EQ, first you need the room and speakers to be optimized and Paul is right on that. However, after that is done, you are unlikely to have optimal frequency response and EQ can do the last tweaking. So yes, I also agree with you, you need EQ. But, if you want the really best audio quality, don't start with the EQ. Personally I've never experienced a system that couldn't benefit from some EQ. For example, I prefer a lift above 10kHz to help recover age related treble loss and regain my ability to hear some of the finer details coming out of sensing those high treble tones. You won't get that effect out of just moving speakers around or doing room treatment. And then comes the reality of the Fletcher Munson curves and how our hearing is focused on voices at lower volumes making music sound very narrow band. Loudness is not a gimmick thing but a real issue of human hearing and for those of us who like to enjoy music without waking up the entire neighborhood, loudness can be quite awesome making the music much more enjoyable when playing it well below concert level. Companies making gear without loudness control tend to defy that thinking but reality is that us audiophiles indeed are using our volume control to other levels than just the ideal "concert level", whatever that is. So ideally EQ is not fixed but allowing modes or volume dependent operation. I've been in many listening tests including ones where loudness calibration was considered and even the most audiophile anti-EQ people likes it as long as you don't say what you did.
Paul, I think it’s “tetralogy”. Quadrilogy is an alternative from the Roman language, but since trilogy comes from the Greek language, I would use tetralogy which also comes from the Greek language. Could you give an indication when Eemians part four will be available? I hardly can wait; the other three books were such a good read!
I have a concrete floor and my bass is incredible detailed . The booming described by many people can also be e smog penetrating youre system . Wifi and electra pollution is underrated .
I've had "unevenness" in frequency but also when moving my head ever so slightly. Usually it came down to reflections from a table, bookshelf, mirror etc.
Speaker placement is HUGE, keep moving them in/out side to side, toe in/out. and listen for awhile you'll see when your getting closer and closer to you nail it.
Agree 100%, but you only partly nail it. I know PS Audio is (still) anti EQ, but rather they should admit to that fact and start putting effort into "audiophile EQ" now most music listening has gone digital and modern audio DSP solutions can work with very high resolution easily. Your analog cross-over in your speakers are with artifacts of various kinds (check GR research making a business out of that). A digital cross-over, EQ etc. can now be done with accuracy that analog components can not.
I have also noticed this. Also soundstage and imaging vary per recording. I honestly feel about 80% of the Ultimate Sound comes from the recording itself. Sure components can make a difference but it's not nearly as big of an impact as the recording and the room.
My biggest impacts? I've used a 7 band EQ on every system I own, truck system (1200 watts), garage system, main system in the basement. Even if you dont use it, it's always there to fix the crappy recording you want to listen to. As for "in the pathway", there is 10's of things already in the pathway, what's one more. Second thing, I passive bi amped my Infinity RS IIIa's (kind of like the IRS V's are). When you power the top end separate from the bass woofers it's like unleashing a whole new speaker. But be aware, Infinity's deserved reputation of being power ho's mainly comes from the top end and that is where you need an amp that can dip to 2 ohms ....a lot. 😎
Damping panels in the centre might sort it a bit. There's no perfect solution to it. Toe out and pushing the speakers closer to the wall could help. I'd add a rug on the floor, a blanket, and a beverage of choice. 🤷🏻♂️
The Sparkos opamps in my Geshelli dac can make soundstage sound bigger and more forward. Switching back to the standard Texas Instruments has a more pleasant sound in my close listening position.
I have experienced, that setup of cause is important, but also that very many recordings put the soloist, ex the singer, too much up front. It's like this sentence is thrue: "well, who is on the album front cover? Hmm, thats why I'm loud"!
Not a fan of Sonos. They certainly have connectivity advantages but that’s it for me. They are poor sounding speakers to my ears but for most people it get would be fine. Enjoy whatever you own.
Is it odd that you’re talking about the setup and your own setup for the audio show was bad? According to the people who have been to your room at the show.
Most people don't want to --- and many simply cannot afford to --- make their stereo dominate the space. I certainly have never been able to dedicate an entire room to the system and have always had to make do with no better than "where-they-will-fit" speaker placement. While that has not ruined my listening experiences, it has not helped any.
And it is more than just setup - meaning speaker positioning - it's also very much about room acoustics. The best system in the world can't sound great in an untreated room with poor acoustics.
Acoustics treatment, clean and correct power, cleaned up streaming stream (correct switch and cables and power filtering). These things have more power over your systems sound than your system does and if they are not correct then your system, no matter what gear you buy, will never ever sound great.
The unbalance is due to the use of Sonus Faber speakers selected. Those have a very bright sound regarding frequency response. It is the SF's house sound to make the tweeter about 10db higher on level. I strongly recommend to EQ the speakers to level that brightness to the rest of the speaker.
One might also consider orienting the speakers several degrees off axis relative to the seating position. Depending upon the speaker, room, and one's preferences, that may mean towing in a little or towing out a little. Either way, it will accomplish the treble attenuation without spending precious money on new speakers. Good luck 👍
@@Artemis_Prix yes, but the case with SF is an extreme one that can't be fixed by just adjusting the toe in/out. Also, using them too parallel or inverted kills the sound stage stereo image. I had one pair of those SF speakers and the only solution was to EQ using DSP. As no toe out could properly fix that exaggerated highs while keeping the speakers usable.
@audiodemos2579 Good to know. I have never owned SF... I'm a Klipsch man and I enjoy the lively (realistic and transparent), dynamic (wide, deep, and tall soundstage, punchy bass), and fun that their Heritage line brings to the table. With that said, consider the MoFi SP10s, Klipsch Forte IVs, or Klispch Heresy IVs as potential replacements. I love my Heresy IVs, but know I would love the Forte IVs even more (can't because of WAF). The SP 10s really impressed me...the only non-Klipsch speaker that ever met that threshold which is saying something (they're also on sale until end of March). Good luck.
@@Artemis_Prix I have a pair of Klipsch bookshelf's. Nice for the price. After the SF I bought a pair of Canton's Reference 9K and a 7K. Absolutely fantastic speaker. Recently I also got a pair of Monitor Audio's Platinum 300 3G. Excellent speakers too. (I still have my 7K pair. Sold the 9Ks).
I think that part of the set up is also how the speakers make contact with the floor. I have Tannoy D900's, which are big speakers and have a great bass but they were boomy. I still like them and have them since 2001. For years I was not actively improving the system but the old virus caught on again. After moving to a new house a few years ago I started improvin my system : a new amplifier, a new dac, a ddc, a seperate transformer for the pre amplifier, new cables, direct powerline from the fuse box, bitperfect playback software etc. The sound improved significantly but was still boomy. Wall treatment helped, The speakers were on spikes on big concrete slabs with felt on the slabs. After some research I ordered IsoAcoustics Gaias (no productplacement, have no connection) and the boomy sound disappeared. The overall stereo image improved tremendously. So in my opinion, it is a combination of so many factors, try several tweaks and see which ones work and then progress.
Hi Paul, from Quebec, where we have the new Montreal Audiofest, we call a series of 4 books a tetralogy. Thanks for your expertise
Agreed!!… Set up is the Key & the time/patience to do it!!..
I spend a whole day rearranging my system a few weeks ago… still tweaking with it..
Indeed and its fun too
yep, I bought:
- DDC Denafrips Iris 12th
- DAC Denafrips Pontus II 12th-1
- amp: NAD C298 (similar to NAD M23)
- preamp: Parasound 2100
- speakers: GoldenEar BRX with AMT ribbon tweeters
- streamer: Eversolo DMP-A6 with native Apple Music
- power cables: iFi silentpower Supanova (active noise cancelling)
- interconnect cables: Cardas Clear USB, Cardas Parsec RCA
- speaker cable: 14 gauge Micca
Hi Paul, Everyone ... Those FR10s ... Truly Amazing. Set-up aside, ... it WAS a great sound for 2.80 days. Honestly.
With respect and love. Thank you.
Quadrilogy is the word for a four-book series.
or 'quartet'
@@bruceaitken1918 I've not heard quartet used in the context of a series of books (or movies) before, more in the context of four musicians in a group (or a group of four people in general).
I generally use 'quartet' to refer to any set of four and folk seem to understand. Nicer word, too
Actually, it is a tetralogy
@@RCO-lr4xt Both terms are correct, but (after doing some research) I will agree that tetralogy is more common than quadrilogy (although I've only personally ever heard of the latter).
Try spreading the speakers out more than you ever thought you would need to or want to. If your wife has to walk around one bringing in the tray of iced tea, so be it. I finally spread mine out, and the actual size of the sound doubled, and it sounds more balanced than ever. Apologize for the wife joke, but the point is that some concessions may have to be made in order for you to be happy with your sound.
Hallo Paul, I had this week an experience with my set up.
My new speakers wouldn't sound right for weeks and I decided to buy a slate plate 5 cm high and put the plate under each of my speakers.
.
It sounds now unbelievably different and better.
I never believed that it makes such a difference .
Thanks for the video and all your work.
It called decoupling
Raising your Speakers 2" can make quite a difference in how sound from the Tweeters (particularly), hit your ear.
@@Prometheus1979 I never believed that it makes such a difference 👍
@@ronmiller6344 True it is a totally different open sound.
Is the slate plate on carpet or hardwood? Or?
I think that the room acoustics has the biggest impact on how the system sounds. If we are talking about more or less decent components of course.
together with that, location of the speakers and listening position.
Amen
I was going to say the same thing. Everyone loves to buy equipment, but no one wants to spend money properly treating the room. The room is the most important component in audio playback system.
I like this answer because it's free. Setup is about moving stuff around to get the best sound. And tweaking speaker placement sometimes has the effect of making the system sound like a new component has been added. And for a couple of bucks, to get the expert instructions on setup, McGowan's The Stereo book is good.
I placed some fake plants behind my speakers to help with the sound bouncing off plain walls...it made a huge difference.
Set-up is massive. Whether with my Magnepans or my Klipsch(s)....I've had my mind blown by some of the most subtle shifts of speaker, or seating, position. DAC would be next too.
The Montreal HiFi Show started yesterday, goes through Sunday
and they hooked the speakers up out of phase for the start of the show.
whoever set up the room in Montreal should be fired ... first impressions are most important
@@couchguy2000what if it was Paul lol!
dac 100% biggest difference i have seen in my setup tda1541a s1 dac diy opens up really big sound stage micro stuf in the sound i have never heard before
A good turntable setup!
I have the Olimpica Nova 3 in my office. Absolutely it's about setup. Get them away from the wall by 18in. Point them at your listening position directly. Then toe them out. When they start to have a center image, mark all feet with tape. Then point them exactly parallel to the room walls. Toe them in till you have a perfect center. Mark with tape. Place them equally between the tape marks.
If that does not fix it... By a Bryston amp, and just be happy.
Just adding! I have your book and tracks… play with positioning and modifying tilt and positioning… better… but not yet what I really enjoy… I also have the Genesis ARC DSP… I spent a lot of hours adjusting and trying after reading every available documentation… something still missing! And my room is treated with diffuser and absorbers… next step should be streamer and DAC… thanks😜
Hi everybody. Concerning the name of a four-part book series, if opera can serve as a reference (anyway they all have a “libreto”), Richard Wagner opus magnus The Rheingold is referred to as The Tetralogy.
With regard to the subject of this video, I agree with Paul that setup is key to taking advantage of any system’s posssibilities (BTW, I include the listening room in the system, and maybe it’s one of the most important “components”).
It sounds like a frequency response problem. That's why you need EQ.
I have always had one in my stereo setup.
OMG!! Don't you realize that this is an AUDIOPHILE channel????? EQ is blasphemy!!( I use one in my system too) But they claim even tone controls are a no no. Don't know where all these purists come from, but they sure seem to spend massive amounts of money to own a pure "simple" system...lol
Before you start using the EQ, first you need the room and speakers to be optimized and Paul is right on that. However, after that is done, you are unlikely to have optimal frequency response and EQ can do the last tweaking. So yes, I also agree with you, you need EQ. But, if you want the really best audio quality, don't start with the EQ. Personally I've never experienced a system that couldn't benefit from some EQ. For example, I prefer a lift above 10kHz to help recover age related treble loss and regain my ability to hear some of the finer details coming out of sensing those high treble tones. You won't get that effect out of just moving speakers around or doing room treatment. And then comes the reality of the Fletcher Munson curves and how our hearing is focused on voices at lower volumes making music sound very narrow band. Loudness is not a gimmick thing but a real issue of human hearing and for those of us who like to enjoy music without waking up the entire neighborhood, loudness can be quite awesome making the music much more enjoyable when playing it well below concert level. Companies making gear without loudness control tend to defy that thinking but reality is that us audiophiles indeed are using our volume control to other levels than just the ideal "concert level", whatever that is. So ideally EQ is not fixed but allowing modes or volume dependent operation. I've been in many listening tests including ones where loudness calibration was considered and even the most audiophile anti-EQ people likes it as long as you don't say what you did.
I think a four book series is called a shameless plug 😉😊
I've always heard room treatment has biggest impact. I guess you could count that as setup. My problem has always been less than ideal rooms.
Try some isolators under your equipment.
Paul, I think it’s “tetralogy”. Quadrilogy is an alternative from the Roman language, but since trilogy comes from the Greek language, I would use tetralogy which also comes from the Greek language.
Could you give an indication when Eemians part four will be available? I hardly can wait; the other three books were such a good read!
the word television is also half greek half latin.
It sounds like it's been a while since Paul has listened to Sonus Faber.
A nice source 24/192 👌🏻
I have a concrete floor and my bass is incredible detailed .
The booming described by many people can also be
e smog penetrating youre system .
Wifi and electra pollution is underrated .
agree with both points
Making sure your speakers are in phase at an audio show seems pretty impactful.
Lolololol9lolo. Wondering how long it wound be till this comment!
I've had "unevenness" in frequency but also when moving my head ever so slightly. Usually it came down to reflections from a table, bookshelf, mirror etc.
Speaker placement is HUGE, keep moving them in/out side to side, toe in/out. and listen for awhile you'll see when your getting closer and closer to you nail it.
Agree 100%, but you only partly nail it. I know PS Audio is (still) anti EQ, but rather they should admit to that fact and start putting effort into "audiophile EQ" now most music listening has gone digital and modern audio DSP solutions can work with very high resolution easily. Your analog cross-over in your speakers are with artifacts of various kinds (check GR research making a business out of that). A digital cross-over, EQ etc. can now be done with accuracy that analog components can not.
and adjust the height of the tweeter: can make a huge difference
Was hoping to get to Montreal for this weekend. Snowing like crazy here near Jay Peak. Really looking forward to checking out PS audio.
And typically some room treatments
It could also be the recording, a lot of modern mainstream recordings the vocals are forward in the mixes 99% of the time
I have also noticed this. Also soundstage and imaging vary per recording. I honestly feel about 80% of the Ultimate Sound comes from the recording itself. Sure components can make a difference but it's not nearly as big of an impact as the recording and the room.
Hey Paul,
Missed you at the
Montreal Audio Fest.
How long are you in town?
You have to see Aura at
the Notre-Dame Basilica.
Room acoustic & powerful amplifier
So many ‘audiophiles’ running amps that simply aren’t powerful enough and are likely mild clipping.
My biggest impacts? I've used a 7 band EQ on every system I own, truck system (1200 watts), garage system, main system in the basement. Even if you dont use it, it's always there to fix the crappy recording you want to listen to. As for "in the pathway", there is 10's of things already in the pathway, what's one more. Second thing, I passive bi amped my Infinity RS IIIa's (kind of like the IRS V's are). When you power the top end separate from the bass woofers it's like unleashing a whole new speaker. But be aware, Infinity's deserved reputation of being power ho's mainly comes from the top end and that is where you need an amp that can dip to 2 ohms ....a lot. 😎
Damping panels in the centre might sort it a bit. There's no perfect solution to it. Toe out and pushing the speakers closer to the wall could help.
I'd add a rug on the floor, a blanket, and a beverage of choice. 🤷🏻♂️
Tetra....four, like after three but before five!
biggest impact is SETUP and the Room! Pull those speakers away from wall boundaries…. Then it's the DAC, Preamp and amp
“Polite Loudspeaker “ 🙂🙂 I think the days of this Sonus Faber might be numbered
the Montreal audio show is this week-end
How close is your listening position? 6 feet can sometimes be too close. Some dacs can create a too forward sound.
The Sparkos opamps in my Geshelli dac can make soundstage sound bigger and more forward. Switching back to the standard Texas Instruments has a more pleasant sound in my close listening position.
1:05 ….other guidance is available! 👍
speaker positioning and pre-amp. In that order.
A group of 4 is a tetrology.
I have experienced, that setup of cause is important, but also that very many recordings put the soloist, ex the singer, too much up front. It's like this sentence is thrue: "well, who is on the album front cover? Hmm, thats why I'm loud"!
course
cause
You had a 50% chance
a quadrilogy? lol Heard the montreal setup at start didnt go well...
Not a fan of Sonos. They certainly have connectivity advantages but that’s it for me. They are poor sounding speakers to my ears but for most people it get would be fine. Enjoy whatever you own.
Is it odd that you’re talking about the setup and your own setup for the audio show was bad? According to the people who have been to your room at the show.
PS audio stands for Poor Sounding
Most people don't want to --- and many simply cannot afford to --- make their stereo dominate the space.
I certainly have never been able to dedicate an entire room to the system
and have always had to make do with no better than "where-they-will-fit" speaker placement.
While that has not ruined my listening experiences, it has not helped any.
I was there yesterday… did I miss you ?🤷🏼
4 is tetralogy
And it is more than just setup - meaning speaker positioning - it's also very much about room acoustics. The best system in the world can't sound great in an untreated room with poor acoustics.
...and identify room mode locations.
Acoustics treatment, clean and correct power, cleaned up streaming stream (correct switch and cables and power filtering). These things have more power over your systems sound than your system does and if they are not correct then your system, no matter what gear you buy, will never ever sound great.
The unbalance is due to the use of Sonus Faber speakers selected. Those have a very bright sound regarding frequency response. It is the SF's house sound to make the tweeter about 10db higher on level. I strongly recommend to EQ the speakers to level that brightness to the rest of the speaker.
One might also consider orienting the speakers several degrees off axis relative to the seating position. Depending upon the speaker, room, and one's preferences, that may mean towing in a little or towing out a little. Either way, it will accomplish the treble attenuation without spending precious money on new speakers. Good luck 👍
@@Artemis_Prix yes, but the case with SF is an extreme one that can't be fixed by just adjusting the toe in/out. Also, using them too parallel or inverted kills the sound stage stereo image. I had one pair of those SF speakers and the only solution was to EQ using DSP. As no toe out could properly fix that exaggerated highs while keeping the speakers usable.
@audiodemos2579 Good to know. I have never owned SF... I'm a Klipsch man and I enjoy the lively (realistic and transparent), dynamic (wide, deep, and tall soundstage, punchy bass), and fun that their Heritage line brings to the table. With that said, consider the MoFi SP10s, Klipsch Forte IVs, or Klispch Heresy IVs as potential replacements. I love my Heresy IVs, but know I would love the Forte IVs even more (can't because of WAF). The SP 10s really impressed me...the only non-Klipsch speaker that ever met that threshold which is saying something (they're also on sale until end of March). Good luck.
@@Artemis_Prix I have a pair of Klipsch bookshelf's. Nice for the price. After the SF I bought a pair of Canton's Reference 9K and a 7K. Absolutely fantastic speaker. Recently I also got a pair of Monitor Audio's Platinum 300 3G. Excellent speakers too. (I still have my 7K pair. Sold the 9Ks).
Someone's probably beat me to it but: tetralogy.
THE ANSWER IS : a dedicated line....hire an electrician to run a seperate line from your breaker box to your music room.....YOU CAN THANK ME LATER
Sounds like Montreal has some weird energy for your set up ….
Quadrology 🙃...
quadrilogy
Tetralogy
That is a portmanteaux
Tetralogy
quartet
FIRST FIX THE ROOM! Setup is important, yes, but if the room is “bad enough”, setup is like putting a band aid on a heart attack.
3-Letters: DSP😉
Self promotion always.
The biggest impact on a hifi?
The carbon-based animal listening. Sometimes my setup sounds OK, sometimes fabulous.
Expectations of the experience
...agree (and also the quality and depth of one's music library)