As a local resident I have to say the new plane is a vast improvement! No more having to pause whatever I'm watching as another glider is towed overhead 😂😂
1. Know your priotities. 2. Know your objectives. 3. Ignore out old biases. 4. Have a good decision process. 5. Get a good result. Congratulations! In Germany we have been towing very successfully with "ultralights" (472,5 kg MTOW) and touring motor gliders for more than 20 years now. And that was before the 915 and 916 and 600kg ultralights have been around. And if one has spoilers as on a Superdimona, one can descent after release like a dive bomber. Yee-haw!
We’ve just done the same, sold our Pawnee and bought a Bistrell at Geneva gliding club. The climb rate is incredible compared to anything I’ve been towed behind, not to mention the fuel efficiency.
"More pictures with groovy music". I swear to god, you're the best at defining chapters in your video's. I remember things like "Flying around like idiots" and so. It always makes my day :D
I know from testing in xplane that the f14 is the best tow plane. You can get up nice and quick. Just be careful to remain outside the afterburner flame.
Saw the Bristell towing a glider today, while I was working at Waharoa - it is so much quieter than the old towplane, which must be appreciated by the local residents. Good choice, for that reason alone...
Much of the extra power in a Pawnee is used up lifting it’s own weight and making more noise! The only real advantage is the initial pull. I found that a 180hp Citabria (the new High Country Explorer) was more than adequate even in the initial pull. Better still would be a 200hp Husky. That aircraft would the best of all worlds. One thing you might have trouble with over time is the nose gear.
My local gliding club here in the U.K. has a Pawnee and yes, fuel burn and maintenance are an issue but it would probably get the club’s ASK21 airborne without it having wings attached 😂. A Kitfox has been used in the past though usual duties go to a Super Cub with larger engine.
Was an accountant for my local gliding club in Norway. They swapped their Pawnee for a Dynamic with a 912 Edge Big Bore in 2014. With that experience I can say congratulations to you!!! You made the right choice!
@@TheSoaringChannel They're also more prone to wear and damage on a soft field and give less of an aerodynamic advantage for the generally slower flight that towing involves so it can be wise to remove and store them so they are perfect when you go to sell the plane.
Great looking aircraft and once the field dries out I’m sure you will have no issues on the ground. We have a 915 in a Eurofox (Phil’s UK club) and the engine has failed after 150 hours due to a piston failing. I would recommend regular leak down checks of the engine compression.
The 915 is the key there- we had our 915 based Eurofox delivered last year and it's performance is fantastic... bringing some pretty hot - and heavy - ships to the club (in the UK). The low wing version of yours looks really interesting - a tad sportier than the mighty Eurofox.
Pawnee forever! You can buy a heck of a lot of fuel for $320,000! Did you consider a winch? I see the official runway length is 1371m but on Maps it looks like more like 1500m fence to fence, which is not bad for a winch. You could also keep the Pawnee to tow to the ridge. If the ground roll is similar to a 180 Cub then that's fine. Good luck with it!
haha yeah we have a winch also :) In good news the Pawnee is still around, we'll probably have it for use occasionally. At a good few thousand dollars every month in Pawnee fuel costs, the fuel savings alone will pay for itself eventually.
It would be fun to watch launching 3 gliders on "fork" style tow support bar at the same time with a safety gap between them ;) wide runway would be required!
I fly a 2017 NG5 classic, speed wing, on the East coast of Australia. It is an absolutely amazing aircraft and my mate and I who own it have put 450 hours on in 3 years. Cheap operating costs with the 912ULS, fun, fast, easy to own. I am not sure about the towing application but there are a bunch doing that around the world. Happy to chat if you want but I think you will be surprised by how good it is.
I should also mention that these rotax aircraft are so quiet with mufflers, and carbon props, they are an absolute game changer for nearby residents. They would be 1/4 of the noise, and no prop tips getting near the speed of sound like the antique planes..
Our club recently bought a Pawnee from one that was very sadly ceasing operations. We have a limited takeoff length and challenging conditions in some wind directions, due to a 300ft ridge on the immediate eastern boundary. The idea was to improve margins on days where we would normally operate anyway, rather than to explore corners of the margins we wouldn't have previously gone into! At this stage we have not seen fit to justify the cost of a new ultralight tug, and had reservations regarding visibility out of Eurofoxes especially for taller pilots. Seems this may be a viable alternative. We mostly operate DR400's, and they handle our rough grass airfield well. We also fear that lightweight tugs would not have a justifiable reliability, as a few others have commented Rotax's don't seem to last all that long when turbocharged to a level of being useful for towing and the undercarriages are not so up to the task. The Pawnee was justifiable as it was cheap to buy, and cheap to insure (I beleive around 1/3 the cost of our DR400's). It remains to be seen how this stacks up on an annual basis in terms of fuel costs, when used occasionally!
Interesting to hear your comments on the Pawnee. I was a member of two gliding clubs during the mid 1980s to late 1997. One club used a Chipmunk and the other used a Super Cub for many years before going for a Pawnee. It was a big mistake financially as the Pawnee guzzled fuel like it was going out of fashion and maintenance costs were high. We later used a Robin D400 but I'm not sure how it compared with the Pawnee.
Some years ago I was a tow pilot and got quite a long experience. A college was towing with a Pawnee and at start the glider pilot hadnt done his duties, so the glider pitched vertical up and within a second pulled up the tail of the Pawnee that crashed fiercely nose down. Since this was the older type of Pawnee with the fuel tank between the engine and the cockpit, a terrible fire burned him to death, before the eyes of his two children. So, when you getting rid of your Pawnee, it feels enlightening to me, even if it was the newer safer version.
Coming from someone who started off flying Pawnees, then worked up to AgCats and Air Tractors with 70+GPH fuel burn, it's so surreal hearing someone talk about the high fuel consumption of those adorable Pawnees. I doubt you could make that little guy burn more than 15GPH with every knob buried into the firewall 🤣
Probably the craziest ever: Walther Extra mit seiner Extra 300 ! Probably the best I have had towing me: Robin DR 400 mit Porsche PFM 3200. Our "standard" was always a PA 18 Supercup - easy and reliable. Well and not to forget the old PZL104 Wilga from Poland.
I was quite excited when at an airfield in Germany, the regular tow plane was temporary replaced with a Wilga, but when towing behind the Wilga with my Mini Nimbus with 80 liters of water, I was very disapointed about it's performance, it was terrible! No speed, slow climb, huge fuel bill!! The Wilga is way overrated as a tow plane
I flew 10+ Wilgas for almost 1000h and I loved her, but.... First of all she's too heavy. Secondly - her performance pretty much depends on engine. Many pilots forget to close engine cowling on steep descent or open them on short final. Concurrent boiling and overcooling doesn't help. And unfortunately AI-14 engine had - I would say - random performance and could never be compared to Lycoming quality. It required knowledge and constant attention of mechanics. I did my A&P helping club mechanics with Wilgas. Keep in mind that she was designed in '50s - quite different times and requirements...
@@jannowak9213 Well, the Wilga that towed me was not as powerful as expected, especially the speed it lacked was making my tow cumbersome. It could do only 110km/h, where I needed at least 120 to get a good climb rate. It took forever to climb 500 meters, with flaps set a notch lower than usual to prevent stalling! Hence the large fuel bill.
Very interesting. I towed with a Pawnee that had a reputed?? 400 horsepower engine. That was nice until a wheel ripped off on landing due to corrrosion. That was a bumpy horizontal cartwheel down the runway. But I cut my teeth on a Cessna 150 with 180 horse conversion. It was the best I would say. Towed a Nimbus3 loaded to the gills once. Never did that again. Cleared the runway end fence (4,000 ft runway) by about ten feet. But the one that literally saved my life twice (and probably the glider pilots' lives) was an AgCat with an r985 radial engine with 450 horses. Many many stories about towing .....
Thanks for sharing the interviews with the tow pilots - they're impressions are so important. There is quite a lot of experience among that crew! Is the aircraft configured so that, in the future, a higher HP engine can be fitted or the current engine upgraded? It seems some additional HP would be welcomed by the pilots!
Great video. The euro fox is used extensively in the uk for glider towing and has been for some time. Did you look at this option given its track record?
I'd be curious about a follow up video on how the performance (especially take off roll) is effected when you get into the summer months. Thanks as always!!!
Awesome choice! Milan and his team at Bristell make a fantastic airframe! Also we should have more and more prolific parking cameras all over aircraft now to drive a vision-system based traffic detection system, but I digress...
Wow what a great insight into the clubs new toy, beautifully presnted with all the mod cons. I had the opportunity to read Phils assessment followiing his trip to Perth, no embellishment just pure robust facts based on his ovesrvations. Well done Team on the new tow plane. Looking forward to experience this in summer.
Great plane. Maybe something for our club, the UL department toys with the idea of a new UL. On a personal note I've passed my A exam on thursday and your videos were part of the reason I started flying and they kept me entertained in the shitty winter days of europe :)
Our club had a ultralight (Remos). Very unhappy with it, and got rid of it: It was mostly in repair as the engine is simply not made for 100% long climbs in mountain area
Yea, I think you guys got the wrong thing. As far as I’ve seen ultralight towing can be done, but you need the right thing. After doing some very basic research on Wikipedia, I’m pretty sure you had the Rotax 912 on that Remos at best, an engine that I personally believe is too weak to tow gliders with a good margin, it’s not impossible, but I wouldn’t recommended it. I’ve only known about one club that uses the Velis with the Rotax 912, but never heard anything about the engine as they broke both the Velises they had in a single season in engine unrelated accidents. Tho, I’ve seen a video of it towing an ASK-21 in a summer day and it doesn’t look good in my opinion as it took something like a minute in order to reach 50 meters. At my club we’ve been using a Super Dimona with a Rotax 914 since 2001 and we couldn’t have been more satisfied with it as it gives us a good safety margin despite the 450m long grass runway. Now, yes, the Super Dimona isn’t an ultralight and has 16m of wingspan, but my point is that the engine were using could be mounted on an ultralight, which would be like half the weight of the Super Dimona
@@Nico9472_ You are right, I think it had 100 horses. On a warm summer day, my son did has license examination flight in an ASK21. The examiner asked why my son did not go higher than 1200m in tow (1500m required). Answer: weak tow plane and density altitude. My son passed his test!
We do own a Super Dimpna with 115hp....our runway (LOLG) is (at ~450m) not too short but at the end we do need to overclimb some trees n hills. We do really fight on hot days towing a Duo Discus XLT with 800 kilos .... would love to test your plane ;)
We fly with the Super Dimona as well (@EHHO). We opted for a DG1000T over the Duo XLT because we could use the engine during tow a well. Make's the take-off roll shorter than the ASK21's. We have 1100m of runway, so it's a bit easier. But still wet grass this year made it hard for the plane. But especially on hot days it is a struggle.
Looks very nice, Tim. I hope it proves to be a good investment. Like Phil mentioned, we have the Eurofox 915 Turbo, which has given us significant fuel savings. Hi Phil, from Julian. Bath, Wilts and North Dorset Gliding Club, UK.
I imagine that the 915 Turbo engine would be a huge benefit for high altitude towing, like in some mountainous sites in the western US where just the field elevation is over 5,000'.
I flew Pawnees mid last century when they were the main Ag plane. Until Piper sold the type certificate to Brazil, parts and maintenance was not bad. Very little on the Pawnee could not be owner provided from his junk pile and new steel tubing. I think you have made a good choice, however. I have never pulled gliders and wonder if you guys use ground effect extensively on takeoff as we did in Ag. With low powered airplanes like all the old 65 hp trainers here in US, especially at high DA, level in low ground effect until cruise airspeed was always necessary. With that little airplane getting the nose wheel just off quickly will start reasonable acceleration. Can that be down with a glider in tow. Next getting the mains off well below out of ground effect stall airspeed also greatly increases acceleration a lot more than rolling on the surface, even concrete. It is extremely important to wiggle the elevator dynamically and proactively to get and remain level in low ground effect. Again, is that possible with a glider in tow? Finally wind management. I am sure you guys are familiar with Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster. I am sure your tow pilots pitch up in up air and pitch down in down air to get through quickly. Low power is always better for teaching energy management. Have fun you guys. I always wanted to fly gliders but needed all flying to be for God and country or for income.
Pawnee is apx. 14 GPH. The wing weldment has an AD that is a major pain to inspect requiring hiring a NDT technician for annual. Engine shock cooling is a real thing to avoid on return. Cracking the exhaust manifold is easy to do and very expensive to replace. Pawnee is engineered for crash survival of pilot. The fuel burn tho is obscene.
Very interesting and informative. I wonder if this will give the Auckland Gliding Club any ideas. As far as I'm aware they still operate their 235 HP Pawnee. Their field is a bit shorter than Matamata though so that could be a problem.
Kind of Ambivalent about removing the safety pin on the parachute Fraction of a second to remove it (with a big flag tab on it its not like you'll miss it) Versus the risk of accidentally catching and triggering it? Then again if you're - I dunno - maybe spinning & reaching against high G to launch it ...........
@@josjonkers3 Better than not having it at all. I'd rather half a chance than no chance? At our club recovery of a minimum 600ft is stated in the tug pilot manuals from a vertical upset. IIRC, a practical study was done (obviously at height) some years ago to establish what the recovery height was. In reality it is probably a lot more than 600ft with startle effect etc etc. It's a long window where you could face an upset with zero chance of survival without a ballistic chute if the ground is nearby. There have been cases of them being successful at saving lives below 100ft, Cirrus as the manufacturer who brought them to prevalence I beleive reccomends above 400ft. I'd rather have it than not, and would 100% advocate my friends use it than attempt to recover and save the airframe and it being too late if someone upsets the tug.
@stefanastley False sense of security. At 600 feet or less you are better off to pull the tow plane release and recover. All kinds of issues pulling the ballistic chute with the glider behind.
Dont you guys use a winch as well? seems the airfield is long enough for that! Otherwise, congratulations with your new tow plane, looks awesome... Perfect choice I think, to make the tail camera more usefull, exchange the lens for a wide angle lens.. Seems an easy fix to me.
What elevation is your field? What are the typical density altitudes you see during hot summer days? I suspect this type of aircraft would work best for low altitude locations.
NUMBERS.... According the video 11:43 1.1 ltr for 1000 ft with the Bristel. 2.5 liters /1000ft for the Pawnee. And now our winch numbers on a 1200 m field, INCLUDING (!!!) the fuel used for the jeep to tow the cable back. So total fuel used. Average release 450 m; 7000 ltr used for 5000 starts = 1.4 liter / start = say 1 liter for 1000 ft.. The same as the Bristel, but count the maintenance cost for the Rotax also. These engine are NOT cheap.
Good choice and good to know it runs on mogas. We're there different prop options, are they only fixed pitch? As a prop can give better take off and climb at the expense of cruise speed.
great plane. Unfortunately, the engine is not as strong as it seems. Despite water cooling, the cylinders are not cooled at the same temperatures, especially in summer.our club plane with Rotax has 1200 hours and the engine has had 3 major repairs and at least 2 other burnt valves
With two fuel requirements at the field, what do you do about refueling? Are you lucky enough to have two storage tanks? Will the local distributor auto deliver auto gas to your field?
Not sure, your prop is the right one? Our neighborhood club owns the same but which much bigger prop. can‘t complain about ground roll. Our Dynamic 915 is still better by a quite big margin but also 120k more expansive.
im hoping the club investigated the continental 310 hp diesel/jet A1 fuel engine for the pawnee , or any other types diesel jet A1 . , aslo replacing the great ford v8 with a 6 cyl turbo diesel for the winch . cheers
Just some back of the hand maths if you pay $320.000 to purchase and its worth $200,000 in 10 years that $12000/ year in depreciation. If you save $20/tow in running costs then doing 600 tows a year will see you break even (12 tows a week) more tows favours the Bristell
For conventional tow plane lovers, it won’t matter what is the best tow plane if the airports have been closed because the encroaching, non-flying public hates the noise. Pros and Cons can be debated all day for the different platforms but noise signature advantage is simply massive for the turbo, multi carbon bladed Rotax.
What does this mean for the members - has the cost of the average tow gone down? (Asking the important questions...) We have two Pawnees, the average tow is about AUD50.
Undercarridge is not made for such load. Rotax is not made for such load. You will bake it. You fly slow with 100% power on hot day on the edge of boiling off cooling water, then you set idle and race down overcooling the engine and overstressing plane by high loads. We were using similar light aircraft for towing for years. Numbers are really nice if you do not add cost of new airplane you will be buying in five years. Luckily you would not break front wheel leg. Which means engine/prop overhaul. Don't get confused by coolant. Rotax is in fact air cooled engine. Water is just for cooling cylinder heads. Airclubs in our country had the same great idea years ago and now most of them are getting rid of light tow planes.
Our neighboring gliding field (Schänis) recently got 4 Bristells... Again: long tows at 100% power in mountain area. Engines were overheating. Bristell ended up installing additional coolers in all 4 of them (additional delays, costs).
@@harryspeakup8452 Then my post is not for you. You need to learn yourself. And I know you will ;-) Give it few more years. There are many reasons why LSA sucks. Heavy gliders with two people on board. One seater fully loaded with balast. Short airport. Bad weather (hot, high elevation). Towing from fields when someone does not make it to the airport. Taking off uphill. Impossible to tow more than one glider at the same time...
Here at 380 meters above sea level, just at the start of the alps we’ve been using a Super Dimona with a Rotax 914 on a runway around 450 meters long. When we got it back in 2001 they called us mad men, now the biggest club in north Italy called us and asked us to fly it over to them to test it on their airfield. Here in Italy those idiots at ENAC don’t wanna allow ultralights to tow gliders for whatever dumb reason, so now we’re stuck either with aircraft with limited power, old tow planes that by now will shorty be on their way to museums or to rich people who are willing to go out of their way to restore and maintain them or having to pay a whole lot more in order to make an ultralight, not be an ultralight on the papers. I guess ultralights aren’t the right way to tow in some places, but they will work pretty much anywhere with those Rotax 915 and 916s
Yeah it was experimental, and bit of a fail. We had to get a mirror. Not easy to swap out with a narrower field of view camera unfortunately. It is still useful to see if the rope is tight or not
@@PureGlide cheers for the reply, it does just look like an analogue camera as used in older drones and security cameras, unless it's digital and in that case yeah not so easy
7:58 ..🙄..it would be a good idea to equip the new tow- plane with a pair of JATO auxiliary power units under the wings to help in the takeoff phase when towing heavy birds full of water ballast / overweight glider pilots....🤔🤔🤔
Is there a way to use an alternative propeller to get more push power, but compromised enroute performance, which you don't need probably? Or there is only one option?
I love towing behind a Pawnee, but it is an absolute money drain. It needs endless maintenence and simply costs far too much in today’s money. The best compromise is still the Robin DR400. We have 4 at our club in the UK and for me they are every bit as good as the Pawnee at far less cost. The very fact you can buy a Pawnee for next to nothing vs a Robin at 3 times the cost sums up the situation perfectly. I’m told the more powerful Eurofox is fantastic, but it’s frail and apparently not robust enough for our rough airfield. I wonder if the aircraft featured here can really drag say a JS1 with 22m wings full of water in hot weather?
Towing with a Scheibe SF25 Turbo Falke :-) : th-cam.com/video/VgjrVSutoXE/w-d-xo.html Our club was confronted to such an issue recently. The airfield has to comply with new noise abatement constraints by January 1, 2025, as a consequence we will not be allowed to tow gliders with an airplanen that produces more than 73db full throttle at take-off (much less than the Robin DR400 180hp we used to tow with). In Belgium, towing with a microlight is unlawful at the moment, and buying a new airplane was not financially feasable. So we did not have a lot of solutions available. We did some testing with a Super Dimona used as a towplane at another airfield nearby, and it proved usable with our glider fleet (no really heavy two-seater) on our runway (only 700m, grass but an asphalt runway is available, given that we must share this one with other activities). So we went to look for a TMG tow plane on the used aircrafts market, and we found a SF25 Turbo sold by a german club, which was switching to an ultralight (legal in Germany). The looks are of course not as sexy as the Bristell, but the machine is not comparable to an "old" Falke : classic landing gear, Rotax 914 power plant (115hp), one-piece canopy... And the take-off noise level is rated at a mere 63db (yes, 10 less than our constraint). We have been using it from the beginningn of the gliding season, and although some club members (and, needless to say, tow pilots) were very skeptical, the concept has shown its soundness. The ground roll is actually not significantly longer than with the DR400, due mainly to the wings characteristic : the glider and the SF25 take off at the same time, which leaves plenty of time to reach the best climbing speed. Also, during the climb, the SF25 is quite comfortable to fly at the speeds best suitable for the gliders; it can take advantage of lift better than the Robin. Like on your Bristell, turbo-charged engine allow keeping sufficient power when density altitude is higher andn water cooling allows for fast descent, so that rotations remain reasonably short. The worst drawback we had to face until now is the loss of all our tow pilots; the ones who didn't have a TMG rating on their PPL would have had to fly 30hr on TMG after qualification to beallowed to tow (EASA rules), and the ones who had already a TMG rating were against the projets (without bringing a solution I muse say). But on the SF25 SPL holders may tow given that they have logged 30hr on TMG and followed a qualification course.
My club made a similar decision. Downside is the cost was so high that I’m told it will take many years at the old (Pawnee) tow prices to cover the capital outlay. Half the fuel burn maybe but no cost benefit to members.
How does your club fund a purchase like that? Do you have substantial cash reserves or is it possible for the club to qualify for a loan? From the manufacturer or a bank?
Good question! I didn't cover that. Of the $320k Basically: - We had saved up money for the Pawnee engine replacement (about $80k). - Debentures and donations: $60k-ish - Loan: $150k. From our parent organisation that has a scheme for clubs to buy such things. - Sale of Pawnee: $30k - Remainder covered under the club finances. We have about 55 club members, and expect to pay back the loan over the next 5 years.
Its rare to get above 28* Celsius (82 F) anywhere in New Zealand because of the cooling effect of the oceans that surround us. The temperature also cools down a lot more overnight in a maritime climate than a continental climate so its only hot from about mid day till 4;30. We have cool summers and warm winters in NZ, think of a Canadian summer and a Florida winter
Dunno it’s only winter so far! So about 7 degrees Celsius. One nice feature of this plane is the canopy can be open while taxiing on the ground, which should help in summer
My only concern is an issue that you mentioned on a previous video about the possibility of a glider pulling the tail of the tow plane up or down by mistake. Wouldn’t the extra power and weight of the Pawnee help reduce the severity of a mistake like that occurring?
No. There is video of Pawnee from US where glider pilot pull his tail up because of inflight canopy open... disaster. Even heavier planes had a problem with this, glider pilot is able kill you very easy. BRS gives you some chance but its not 100%.
@@PureGlide Some years ago we used a sport light aircraft to tow. It had excellent rudder and elevator control. 2 up in a Janus C, Glider could not displace the tow plane. It's not about AUW but power of control services IMHO.
Good question! I didn't cover that. Of the $320k Basically: - We had saved up money for the Pawnee engine replacement (about $80k). - Debentures and donations: $60k-ish - Loan: $150k - Sale of Pawnee: $30k - Remainder covered under the club finances. We have about 55 club members, and expect to pay back the loan over the next 5 years.
@@PureGlide So will you fill the hole made by the loan + hit on the club finances by maintaining tow ticket price, since their cost (I assume?) is now lower?
@@rogerbosman2126 In my experience hourly costs are not lower too much. Better fuel economy and price for fuel helps but the plane price is high so be careful. As you said, maintaining tow price helps. We also change from normal tow plane to LSA Ultralight.
As a local resident I have to say the new plane is a vast improvement! No more having to pause whatever I'm watching as another glider is towed overhead 😂😂
🍺🍺🍺😁
1. Know your priotities.
2. Know your objectives.
3. Ignore out old biases.
4. Have a good decision process.
5. Get a good result.
Congratulations!
In Germany we have been towing very successfully with "ultralights" (472,5 kg MTOW) and touring motor gliders for more than 20 years now. And that was before the 915 and 916 and 600kg ultralights have been around.
And if one has spoilers as on a Superdimona, one can descent after release like a dive bomber. Yee-haw!
We’ve just done the same, sold our Pawnee and bought a Bistrell at Geneva gliding club. The climb rate is incredible compared to anything I’ve been towed behind, not to mention the fuel efficiency.
"More pictures with groovy music". I swear to god, you're the best at defining chapters in your video's. I remember things like "Flying around like idiots" and so. It always makes my day :D
Ha glad someone appreciates it
I know from testing in xplane that the f14 is the best tow plane. You can get up nice and quick. Just be careful to remain outside the afterburner flame.
The Sidewinder missiles are another bonus if somebody's getting too far ahead in the contest.
I always fancied an asbestos glider
Congratulations 👍
Being a two seater is also a huge plus in qualifying new tow pilots.
Saw the Bristell towing a glider today, while I was working at Waharoa - it is so much quieter than the old towplane, which must be appreciated by the local residents. Good choice, for that reason alone...
Much of the extra power in a Pawnee is used up lifting it’s own weight and making more noise! The only real advantage is the initial pull. I found that a 180hp Citabria (the new High Country Explorer) was more than adequate even in the initial pull. Better still would be a 200hp Husky. That aircraft would the best of all worlds. One thing you might have trouble with over time is the nose gear.
My local gliding club here in the U.K. has a Pawnee and yes, fuel burn and maintenance are an issue but it would probably get the club’s ASK21 airborne without it having wings attached 😂. A Kitfox has been used in the past though usual duties go to a Super Cub with larger engine.
In the club I was flying in Italy we have a Stinson L5 Sentinel that the US gave to the Italian Aeroclubs after the 2nd WW.
Was an accountant for my local gliding club in Norway. They swapped their Pawnee for a Dynamic with a 912 Edge Big Bore in 2014. With that experience I can say congratulations to you!!! You made the right choice!
Being on grass field, might be a good idea to remove the wheel pants.
Good point.
Curious - why?
@@TheSoaringChannel Cut grass gets inside and wraps around axles, then works its way into bearings etc.
@@simitarknut2201 Well, you have to cut the grass.
@@TheSoaringChannel They're also more prone to wear and damage on a soft field and give less of an aerodynamic advantage for the generally slower flight that towing involves so it can be wise to remove and store them so they are perfect when you go to sell the plane.
Great looking aircraft and once the field dries out I’m sure you will have no issues on the ground. We have a 915 in a Eurofox (Phil’s UK club) and the engine has failed after 150 hours due to a piston failing. I would recommend regular leak down checks of the engine compression.
Same thing happened to me with my 912. Piston 1 knock damage after 160 hours. Do you have any idea about the reasons.
@@Nice_Sky Possibly detonation if using mogas or in our case I suspect shock cooling
The 915 is the key there- we had our 915 based Eurofox delivered last year and it's performance is fantastic... bringing some pretty hot - and heavy - ships to the club (in the UK). The low wing version of yours looks really interesting - a tad sportier than the mighty Eurofox.
Pawnee forever! You can buy a heck of a lot of fuel for $320,000! Did you consider a winch? I see the official runway length is 1371m but on Maps it looks like more like 1500m fence to fence, which is not bad for a winch. You could also keep the Pawnee to tow to the ridge. If the ground roll is similar to a 180 Cub then that's fine. Good luck with it!
haha yeah we have a winch also :) In good news the Pawnee is still around, we'll probably have it for use occasionally. At a good few thousand dollars every month in Pawnee fuel costs, the fuel savings alone will pay for itself eventually.
@@PureGlidekeep it as a spare for when TOW is in for MX. Keep that Pawnee working.
Oh I wish it had been a DC3 🙂 Still very nice though
Would have made larger gliders possible 😊
It would be fun to watch launching 3 gliders on "fork" style tow support bar at the same time with a safety gap between them ;)
wide runway would be required!
@@fakfarakfak Be fun if someone built a larger glider with more passenger space.
Was used in WWII for towing WACO glider troop carriers.
th-cam.com/video/Dkt8rKQSiOU/w-d-xo.html
@@waynerussell6401 Yes indeed.
I fly a 2017 NG5 classic, speed wing, on the East coast of Australia. It is an absolutely amazing aircraft and my mate and I who own it have put 450 hours on in 3 years. Cheap operating costs with the 912ULS, fun, fast, easy to own. I am not sure about the towing application but there are a bunch doing that around the world. Happy to chat if you want but I think you will be surprised by how good it is.
I should also mention that these rotax aircraft are so quiet with mufflers, and carbon props, they are an absolute game changer for nearby residents. They would be 1/4 of the noise, and no prop tips getting near the speed of sound like the antique planes..
Our club recently bought a Pawnee from one that was very sadly ceasing operations. We have a limited takeoff length and challenging conditions in some wind directions, due to a 300ft ridge on the immediate eastern boundary. The idea was to improve margins on days where we would normally operate anyway, rather than to explore corners of the margins we wouldn't have previously gone into! At this stage we have not seen fit to justify the cost of a new ultralight tug, and had reservations regarding visibility out of Eurofoxes especially for taller pilots. Seems this may be a viable alternative. We mostly operate DR400's, and they handle our rough grass airfield well. We also fear that lightweight tugs would not have a justifiable reliability, as a few others have commented Rotax's don't seem to last all that long when turbocharged to a level of being useful for towing and the undercarriages are not so up to the task. The Pawnee was justifiable as it was cheap to buy, and cheap to insure (I beleive around 1/3 the cost of our DR400's). It remains to be seen how this stacks up on an annual basis in terms of fuel costs, when used occasionally!
Interesting to hear your comments on the Pawnee. I was a member of two gliding clubs during the mid 1980s to late 1997. One club used a Chipmunk and the other used a Super Cub for many years before going for a Pawnee. It was a big mistake financially as the Pawnee guzzled fuel like it was going out of fashion and maintenance costs were high. We later used a Robin D400 but I'm not sure how it compared with the Pawnee.
Iggy Wood! The man, the myth, the legend! Haven't seen him for about 30 years. Looking good Iggy!
Dakota might have been a good option, fill it every time with Skydivers, cashing from towing 2 gliders at same time and 20 skydiver in the back...
Some years ago I was a tow pilot and got quite a long experience. A college was towing with a Pawnee and at start the glider pilot hadnt done his duties, so the glider pitched vertical up and within a second pulled up the tail of the Pawnee that crashed fiercely nose down. Since this was the older type of Pawnee with the fuel tank between the engine and the cockpit, a terrible fire burned him to death, before the eyes of his two children.
So, when you getting rid of your Pawnee, it feels enlightening to me, even if it was the newer safer version.
Coming from someone who started off flying Pawnees, then worked up to AgCats and Air Tractors with 70+GPH fuel burn, it's so surreal hearing someone talk about the high fuel consumption of those adorable Pawnees. I doubt you could make that little guy burn more than 15GPH with every knob buried into the firewall 🤣
Probably the craziest ever: Walther Extra mit seiner Extra 300 ! Probably the best I have had towing me: Robin DR 400 mit Porsche PFM 3200. Our "standard" was always a PA 18 Supercup - easy and reliable. Well and not to forget the old PZL104 Wilga from Poland.
I was quite excited when at an airfield in Germany, the regular tow plane was temporary replaced with a Wilga, but when towing behind the Wilga with my Mini Nimbus with 80 liters of water, I was very disapointed about it's performance, it was terrible! No speed, slow climb, huge fuel bill!!
The Wilga is way overrated as a tow plane
I flew 10+ Wilgas for almost 1000h and I loved her, but.... First of all she's too heavy. Secondly - her performance pretty much depends on engine. Many pilots forget to close engine cowling on steep descent or open them on short final. Concurrent boiling and overcooling doesn't help. And unfortunately AI-14 engine had - I would say - random performance and could never be compared to Lycoming quality. It required knowledge and constant attention of mechanics. I did my A&P helping club mechanics with Wilgas. Keep in mind that she was designed in '50s - quite different times and requirements...
@@jannowak9213 Well, the Wilga that towed me was not as powerful as expected, especially the speed it lacked was making my tow cumbersome. It could do only 110km/h, where I needed at least 120 to get a good climb rate. It took forever to climb 500 meters, with flaps set a notch lower than usual to prevent stalling! Hence the large fuel bill.
Wilga's optimum tow speed is 115km/h. But who reads AFM?
Very interesting. I towed with a Pawnee that had a reputed?? 400 horsepower engine. That was nice until a wheel ripped off on landing due to corrrosion. That was a bumpy horizontal cartwheel down the runway. But I cut my teeth on a Cessna 150 with 180 horse conversion. It was the best I would say. Towed a Nimbus3 loaded to the gills once. Never did that again. Cleared the runway end fence (4,000 ft runway) by about ten feet. But the one that literally saved my life twice (and probably the glider pilots' lives) was an AgCat with an r985 radial engine with 450 horses. Many many stories about towing .....
Thanks for sharing the interviews with the tow pilots - they're impressions are so important. There is quite a lot of experience among that crew! Is the aircraft configured so that, in the future, a higher HP engine can be fitted or the current engine upgraded? It seems some additional HP would be welcomed by the pilots!
Great, I would love to see an update after a year of use👍
Definitely will do that!
10kt climb today towing with DG1001, 2POB, 8min cycle to ~2000agl and touchdown.
Great video. The euro fox is used extensively in the uk for glider towing and has been for some time. Did you look at this option given its track record?
Yeah we did, but it's not as nice or performant as the Bristell!
I would stick with a Jodel Robin 200PS - You have to take the tow pilot's fun at piloting for a full day of tows into consideration
I'd be curious about a follow up video on how the performance (especially take off roll) is effected when you get into the summer months. Thanks as always!!!
That looks like a really nice plane.
Awesome choice! Milan and his team at Bristell make a fantastic airframe!
Also we should have more and more prolific parking cameras all over aircraft now to drive a vision-system based traffic detection system, but I digress...
Wow what a great insight into the clubs new toy, beautifully presnted with all the mod cons. I had the opportunity to read Phils assessment followiing his trip to Perth, no embellishment just pure robust facts based on his ovesrvations. Well done Team on the new tow plane. Looking forward to experience this in summer.
Great plane. Maybe something for our club, the UL department toys with the idea of a new UL. On a personal note I've passed my A exam on thursday and your videos were part of the reason I started flying and they kept me entertained in the shitty winter days of europe :)
If the council wasn't planning to kick me off the airfield I'd look forward to seeing it at NZTO this summer.
Our club had a ultralight (Remos). Very unhappy with it, and got rid of it: It was mostly in repair as the engine is simply not made for 100% long climbs in mountain area
interesting, sorry to hear that
Yea, I think you guys got the wrong thing. As far as I’ve seen ultralight towing can be done, but you need the right thing. After doing some very basic research on Wikipedia, I’m pretty sure you had the Rotax 912 on that Remos at best, an engine that I personally believe is too weak to tow gliders with a good margin, it’s not impossible, but I wouldn’t recommended it. I’ve only known about one club that uses the Velis with the Rotax 912, but never heard anything about the engine as they broke both the Velises they had in a single season in engine unrelated accidents. Tho, I’ve seen a video of it towing an ASK-21 in a summer day and it doesn’t look good in my opinion as it took something like a minute in order to reach 50 meters.
At my club we’ve been using a Super Dimona with a Rotax 914 since 2001 and we couldn’t have been more satisfied with it as it gives us a good safety margin despite the 450m long grass runway. Now, yes, the Super Dimona isn’t an ultralight and has 16m of wingspan, but my point is that the engine were using could be mounted on an ultralight, which would be like half the weight of the Super Dimona
@@Nico9472_ You are right, I think it had 100 horses. On a warm summer day, my son did has license examination flight in an ASK21. The examiner asked why my son did not go higher than 1200m in tow (1500m required). Answer: weak tow plane and density altitude. My son passed his test!
We do own a Super Dimpna with 115hp....our runway (LOLG) is (at ~450m) not too short but at the end we do need to overclimb some trees n hills. We do really fight on hot days towing a Duo Discus XLT with 800 kilos .... would love to test your plane ;)
We fly with the Super Dimona as well (@EHHO). We opted for a DG1000T over the Duo XLT because we could use the engine during tow a well. Make's the take-off roll shorter than the ASK21's. We have 1100m of runway, so it's a bit easier. But still wet grass this year made it hard for the plane. But especially on hot days it is a struggle.
Safety yellow is easier to see! I like it.
Looks very nice, Tim.
I hope it proves to be a good investment.
Like Phil mentioned, we have the Eurofox 915 Turbo, which has given us significant fuel savings.
Hi Phil, from Julian. Bath, Wilts and North Dorset Gliding Club, UK.
was about to say, you're def not the first to use DC-3s for towing 😄
I imagine that the 915 Turbo engine would be a huge benefit for high altitude towing, like in some mountainous sites in the western US where just the field elevation is over 5,000'.
The manual should list the full pressure altitude
I flew Pawnees mid last century when they were the main Ag plane. Until Piper sold the type certificate to Brazil, parts and maintenance was not bad. Very little on the Pawnee could not be owner provided from his junk pile and new steel tubing. I think you have made a good choice, however. I have never pulled gliders and wonder if you guys use ground effect extensively on takeoff as we did in Ag. With low powered airplanes like all the old 65 hp trainers here in US, especially at high DA, level in low ground effect until cruise airspeed was always necessary. With that little airplane getting the nose wheel just off quickly will start reasonable acceleration. Can that be down with a glider in tow. Next getting the mains off well below out of ground effect stall airspeed also greatly increases acceleration a lot more than rolling on the surface, even concrete. It is extremely important to wiggle the elevator dynamically and proactively to get and remain level in low ground effect. Again, is that possible with a glider in tow? Finally wind management. I am sure you guys are familiar with Wolfgang's law of the roller coaster. I am sure your tow pilots pitch up in up air and pitch down in down air to get through quickly.
Low power is always better for teaching energy management. Have fun you guys. I always wanted to fly gliders but needed all flying to be for God and country or for income.
Yellow - the best colour for tow plane!
Pawnee is apx. 14 GPH. The wing weldment has an AD that is a major pain to inspect requiring hiring a NDT technician for annual. Engine shock cooling is a real thing to avoid on return. Cracking the exhaust manifold is easy to do and very expensive to replace. Pawnee is engineered for crash survival of pilot. The fuel burn tho is obscene.
You'd be surprised how many 'experienced' tow pilots don't believe shock cooling is a problem. Explaining it to them is pointless.
It's a flying banana, what more would one want!
Very interesting and informative. I wonder if this will give the Auckland Gliding Club any ideas. As far as I'm aware they still operate their 235 HP Pawnee. Their field is a bit shorter than Matamata though so that could be a problem.
Loved the interviews with the tow pilots, awesome video Tim!
Our old 180 cub is still going strong but these new tow planes look neat. The Rotax 916is would a good option too but pretty pricey
Yeah it costs a LOT more
Kind of Ambivalent about removing the safety pin on the parachute
Fraction of a second to remove it (with a big flag tab on it its not like you'll miss it)
Versus the risk of accidentally catching and triggering it?
Then again if you're - I dunno - maybe spinning & reaching against high G to launch it ...........
We use a aviat husky its amazing we can get big heavy gkiders like duo discus with water in the air with like 500-600 meter
Thanks Tim, very helpful!
One towpilot in the video mentioned using the ballistic parachute at low level towplane upset... Good luck with that!
Any doubts?
The thing with parachutes: if you need it, you’ll be glad it’s an option… no matter what height you are
@@PureGlide It won't deploy in time during towplane upset. Way too low.
@@josjonkers3 Better than not having it at all. I'd rather half a chance than no chance? At our club recovery of a minimum 600ft is stated in the tug pilot manuals from a vertical upset. IIRC, a practical study was done (obviously at height) some years ago to establish what the recovery height was. In reality it is probably a lot more than 600ft with startle effect etc etc. It's a long window where you could face an upset with zero chance of survival without a ballistic chute if the ground is nearby. There have been cases of them being successful at saving lives below 100ft, Cirrus as the manufacturer who brought them to prevalence I beleive reccomends above 400ft. I'd rather have it than not, and would 100% advocate my friends use it than attempt to recover and save the airframe and it being too late if someone upsets the tug.
@stefanastley False sense of security. At 600 feet or less you are better off to pull the tow plane release and recover. All kinds of issues pulling the ballistic chute with the glider behind.
Dont you guys use a winch as well? seems the airfield is long enough for that!
Otherwise, congratulations with your new tow plane, looks awesome... Perfect choice I think, to make the tail camera more usefull, exchange the lens for a wide angle lens.. Seems an easy fix to me.
Hi if you can find a camera to swap out we’d like to know about it!
No ejector seat on this one? Great video
What elevation is your field? What are the typical density altitudes you see during hot summer days? I suspect this type of aircraft would work best for low altitude locations.
NUMBERS.... According the video 11:43 1.1 ltr for 1000 ft with the Bristel. 2.5 liters /1000ft for the Pawnee.
And now our winch numbers on a 1200 m field, INCLUDING (!!!) the fuel used for the jeep to tow the cable back. So total fuel used. Average release 450 m;
7000 ltr used for 5000 starts = 1.4 liter / start = say 1 liter for 1000 ft..
The same as the Bristel, but count the maintenance cost for the Rotax also. These engine are NOT cheap.
With the new airworthiness directive for the Pawnee, probably a fantastic choice.
Yeah just another example of the costs of older aircraft. Saying that, any aircraft can suddenly have an AD like that...
Good choice and good to know it runs on mogas. We're there different prop options, are they only fixed pitch? As a prop can give better take off and climb at the expense of cruise speed.
Constant speed or inflight controled prop is good but consider weight and CG. Sometimes its difficult to maintain LSA weight limitations.
I forgot to say that! Yes it’s mogas, not avgas. So we drive down the local petrol station…
great plane. Unfortunately, the engine is not as strong as it seems. Despite water cooling, the cylinders are not cooled at the same temperatures, especially in summer.our club plane with Rotax has 1200 hours and the engine has had 3 major repairs and at least 2 other burnt valves
With two fuel requirements at the field, what do you do about refueling? Are you lucky enough to have two storage tanks? Will the local distributor auto deliver auto gas to your field?
Beautiful machine. Congratulations. 👍
Not sure, your prop is the right one? Our neighborhood club owns the same but which much bigger prop. can‘t complain about ground roll. Our Dynamic 915 is still better by a quite big margin but also 120k more expansive.
im hoping the club investigated the continental 310 hp diesel/jet A1 fuel engine for the pawnee , or any other types diesel jet A1 . , aslo replacing the great ford v8 with a 6 cyl turbo diesel for the winch . cheers
Awesome choice! Great touring airplane as well. Do pilots need a Commercial Rating?
Just some back of the hand maths if you pay $320.000 to purchase and its worth $200,000 in 10 years that $12000/ year in depreciation. If you save $20/tow in running costs then doing 600 tows a year will see you break even (12 tows a week) more tows favours the Bristell
The 916iS or one of the edge performance variants probably would have been a more ideal powerplant.
I recommend a Cessna L-19 but they're likely too pricey these days.
For conventional tow plane lovers, it won’t matter what is the best tow plane if the airports have been closed because the encroaching, non-flying public hates the noise. Pros and Cons can be debated all day for the different platforms but noise signature advantage is simply massive for the turbo, multi carbon bladed Rotax.
Good choice, good luck.
What does this mean for the members - has the cost of the average tow gone down? (Asking the important questions...) We have two Pawnees, the average tow is about AUD50.
If there were a perfect aeroplane for tugging, every gliding club would have one. The choice of yellow colour is good.
Pawnee is a perfect tow plane!
Was times are changing the Dublin Gliding Club has a 180 super cub. The Ulster Cub has a eurofox
The Pawnee's good, but =
I'll see your Pawnee and raise you a Cessna L-19 / O-1 Bird Dog.
Looks like a very nice decision
Undercarridge is not made for such load. Rotax is not made for such load. You will bake it. You fly slow with 100% power on hot day on the edge of boiling off cooling water, then you set idle and race down overcooling the engine and overstressing plane by high loads. We were using similar light aircraft for towing for years. Numbers are really nice if you do not add cost of new airplane you will be buying in five years. Luckily you would not break front wheel leg. Which means engine/prop overhaul. Don't get confused by coolant. Rotax is in fact air cooled engine. Water is just for cooling cylinder heads. Airclubs in our country had the same great idea years ago and now most of them are getting rid of light tow planes.
Our neighboring gliding field (Schänis) recently got 4 Bristells... Again: long tows at 100% power in mountain area. Engines were overheating. Bristell ended up installing additional coolers in all 4 of them (additional delays, costs).
We've been using two Rotax-powered Eurofoxes for intensive training and club towing for four years and have had no problems
@@harryspeakup8452 Good 4 you!
@@harryspeakup8452 Then my post is not for you. You need to learn yourself. And I know you will ;-) Give it few more years. There are many reasons why LSA sucks. Heavy gliders with two people on board. One seater fully loaded with balast. Short airport. Bad weather (hot, high elevation). Towing from fields when someone does not make it to the airport. Taking off uphill. Impossible to tow more than one glider at the same time...
Here at 380 meters above sea level, just at the start of the alps we’ve been using a Super Dimona with a Rotax 914 on a runway around 450 meters long. When we got it back in 2001 they called us mad men, now the biggest club in north Italy called us and asked us to fly it over to them to test it on their airfield.
Here in Italy those idiots at ENAC don’t wanna allow ultralights to tow gliders for whatever dumb reason, so now we’re stuck either with aircraft with limited power, old tow planes that by now will shorty be on their way to museums or to rich people who are willing to go out of their way to restore and maintain them or having to pay a whole lot more in order to make an ultralight, not be an ultralight on the papers. I guess ultralights aren’t the right way to tow in some places, but they will work pretty much anywhere with those Rotax 915 and 916s
Our club actually has two Pawnees and a Cessna birddog. What was that you were saying about fuel. 😂
I would suggest switching out the camera for a narrower field of view, it looks like a standard analog camera so there will be many cameras to try out
Yeah it was experimental, and bit of a fail. We had to get a mirror. Not easy to swap out with a narrower field of view camera unfortunately. It is still useful to see if the rope is tight or not
@@PureGlide cheers for the reply, it does just look like an analogue camera as used in older drones and security cameras, unless it's digital and in that case yeah not so easy
7:58 ..🙄..it would be a good idea to equip the new tow- plane with a pair of JATO auxiliary power units under the wings to help in the takeoff phase when towing heavy birds full of water ballast / overweight glider pilots....🤔🤔🤔
Is there a way to use an alternative propeller to get more push power, but compromised enroute performance, which you don't need probably? Or there is only one option?
Let us know if there's any issues with the turbocharger on the engine.
looks good!
How much of the running cost is attributed to fuel compared to maintenance? WIll it make a difference ?
wondering if is certified for MOGAS, and what are the performance numbers on grass only (TO dist., TO dist.over 50ft, LDG dist.)
Yeah mogas, 95 octane or higher.we don’t have good numbers yet, I’ll do a follow up later
@@PureGlide Would be highly appreciated... I guess in many cases the performance is a limiting factor.
does the addition of VGs could improve take off length and speed?
Did you mention that it only has 1/3 to 1/2 of the fuel burn the old one has?
I love towing behind a Pawnee, but it is an absolute money drain. It needs endless maintenence and simply costs far too much in today’s money. The best compromise is still the Robin DR400. We have 4 at our club in the UK and for me they are every bit as good as the Pawnee at far less cost. The very fact you can buy a Pawnee for next to nothing vs a Robin at 3 times the cost sums up the situation perfectly. I’m told the more powerful Eurofox is fantastic, but it’s frail and apparently not robust enough for our rough airfield. I wonder if the aircraft featured here can really drag say a JS1 with 22m wings full of water in hot weather?
Towing with a Scheibe SF25 Turbo Falke :-) : th-cam.com/video/VgjrVSutoXE/w-d-xo.html
Our club was confronted to such an issue recently. The airfield has to comply with new noise abatement constraints by January 1, 2025, as a consequence we will not be allowed to tow gliders with an airplanen that produces more than 73db full throttle at take-off (much less than the Robin DR400 180hp we used to tow with).
In Belgium, towing with a microlight is unlawful at the moment, and buying a new airplane was not financially feasable. So we did not have a lot of solutions available. We did some testing with a Super Dimona used as a towplane at another airfield nearby, and it proved usable with our glider fleet (no really heavy two-seater) on our runway (only 700m, grass but an asphalt runway is available, given that we must share this one with other activities).
So we went to look for a TMG tow plane on the used aircrafts market, and we found a SF25 Turbo sold by a german club, which was switching to an ultralight (legal in Germany). The looks are of course not as sexy as the Bristell, but the machine is not comparable to an "old" Falke : classic landing gear, Rotax 914 power plant (115hp), one-piece canopy... And the take-off noise level is rated at a mere 63db (yes, 10 less than our constraint).
We have been using it from the beginningn of the gliding season, and although some club members (and, needless to say, tow pilots) were very skeptical, the concept has shown its soundness.
The ground roll is actually not significantly longer than with the DR400, due mainly to the wings characteristic : the glider and the SF25 take off at the same time, which leaves plenty of time to reach the best climbing speed. Also, during the climb, the SF25 is quite comfortable to fly at the speeds best suitable for the gliders; it can take advantage of lift better than the Robin. Like on your Bristell, turbo-charged engine allow keeping sufficient power when density altitude is higher andn water cooling allows for fast descent, so that rotations remain reasonably short.
The worst drawback we had to face until now is the loss of all our tow pilots; the ones who didn't have a TMG rating on their PPL would have had to fly 30hr on TMG after qualification to beallowed to tow (EASA rules), and the ones who had already a TMG rating were against the projets (without bringing a solution I muse say). But on the SF25 SPL holders may tow given that they have logged 30hr on TMG and followed a qualification course.
Seems up to the job!
My Club bought 3 BR23 last year
That is not what I expected for a tow plane when I saw the dc3
Nearest club to me uses a winch.
My club made a similar decision. Downside is the cost was so high that I’m told it will take many years at the old (Pawnee) tow prices to cover the capital outlay. Half the fuel burn maybe but no cost benefit to members.
How does your club fund a purchase like that? Do you have substantial cash reserves or is it possible for the club to qualify for a loan? From the manufacturer or a bank?
Good question! I didn't cover that. Of the $320k Basically:
- We had saved up money for the Pawnee engine replacement (about $80k).
- Debentures and donations: $60k-ish
- Loan: $150k. From our parent organisation that has a scheme for clubs to buy such things.
- Sale of Pawnee: $30k
- Remainder covered under the club finances.
We have about 55 club members, and expect to pay back the loan over the next 5 years.
only very rich clubs can afford such an expenditure in a tow plane, congratulations
What is the hottest temperature you get there Tim ?
Its rare to get above 28* Celsius (82 F) anywhere in New Zealand because of the cooling effect of the oceans that surround us. The temperature also cools down a lot more overnight in a maritime climate than a continental climate so its only hot from about mid day till 4;30. We have cool summers and warm winters in NZ, think of a Canadian summer and a Florida winter
Dunno it’s only winter so far! So about 7 degrees Celsius. One nice feature of this plane is the canopy can be open while taxiing on the ground, which should help in summer
what's it like being a tow pilot?
Thanks Tim say hi to Iggy Wood from me good stuff
Try comparing the capital costs. The Pawnee is much cheaper.
My only concern is an issue that you mentioned on a previous video about the possibility of a glider pulling the tail of the tow plane up or down by mistake.
Wouldn’t the extra power and weight of the Pawnee help reduce the severity of a mistake like that occurring?
No. There is video of Pawnee from US where glider pilot pull his tail up because of inflight canopy open... disaster. Even heavier planes had a problem with this, glider pilot is able kill you very easy. BRS gives you some chance but its not 100%.
Yes we were concerned about the lighter aircraft being pulled around more by the gliders. The risk is still there.
@@PureGlide Some years ago we used a sport light aircraft to tow. It had excellent rudder and elevator control. 2 up in a Janus C, Glider could not displace the tow plane. It's not about AUW but power of control services IMHO.
How did you pay for it?
Good question! I didn't cover that. Of the $320k Basically:
- We had saved up money for the Pawnee engine replacement (about $80k).
- Debentures and donations: $60k-ish
- Loan: $150k
- Sale of Pawnee: $30k
- Remainder covered under the club finances.
We have about 55 club members, and expect to pay back the loan over the next 5 years.
@@PureGlide So will you fill the hole made by the loan + hit on the club finances by maintaining tow ticket price, since their cost (I assume?) is now lower?
@@rogerbosman2126 In my experience hourly costs are not lower too much. Better fuel economy and price for fuel helps but the plane price is high so be careful. As you said, maintaining tow price helps. We also change from normal tow plane to LSA Ultralight.