I'm still bitter that ECW got it's own show and brand after the buyout but WCW didn't. WCW and it's titles had so much more prestige than anything in ECW.
@@generalkayoss7347 I feel the same, but ECW was a huge deal too. I never watched ECW back in the day, but let's give credit where credit is due. The only reason it wasn't as big as WCW and WWF was because it didn't have much of anything for financial backing. If it had the money behind it that those 2 promotions did, they would have been quite a threat and those titles would have a ton of prestige. Much of their talent (and *maybe* a few ideas) were stolen by both companies. If not for ECW, that era of wrestling might not have been as great as it was.
What Eric doesn't grasp is that it was Hulk's EGO not his checkbook driving things... same reason Brett wouldn't drop the belt to HBK in Canada is the same mindset that drives Hogan. Its not enough to earn a ton of $$ they want to also be PERCEIVED as the top guy .. and the top guy has the strap, brotha..
And the biggest example of needing to truly know your product instead of pulling it out of your rear. Biggest angle of all time, with the worst screwup payoff of all time.
I honestly can not think of any other match that had any where near the length of build-up. Every week on Nitro, you knew you were getting closer and closer to the payoff. They did such a great job with this whole storyline...right up to the payoff. As soon as Sting came out and took his trench coat off, everything in my soul said "uhmm..wait. somethings not right here...oh no." And, My God it all went to shit during and after this pay per view.
@@jaklinds7413 1,000% correct. The way Starrcade 97 played out, combined with the fact that WCW was out of business just over 3 years later exposes the fact that Bischoff's run in charge of the company was mostly comprised of luck, and smoke & mirrors. Nothing Bischoff says here does anything to make anyone think otherwise.
@@aaronstockton7373 Give me a break. Nothing about the way Sting looked was off in a big enough way to be a factor. Bischoff himself says it was the equivalent of "ketchup on his shirt". How does that justify wasting a year and a half of primetime television on a major cable network, and millions of dollars of build-up for the hottest angle in all of wrestling, and the biggest financial success in company history?!?!
@@burntvirtue The year after was as bad. Hottest babyface in Goldberg loses to Nash, only to have it lead to an NWO reformation a week later. Biggest couple years each end with duds. Says it all really.
I believe Eric's side of the story, but the thing he's ignoring is Hogan's ego. Sure, Hogan didn't stand to gain additional money in the wrestling business, but he was all about appearances, and in his own head the wins and loses (and how those loses came about) did matter. And anyone who thinks otherwise is just not wanting to see the reality. And it's not even all Hogan's fault. The nature of the business and the position he was in negatively encourages that mindset. Austin was just as bad iirc. But as such, it's entirely believable that Hogan called the change in the finish to make himself look better. He has a long reputation of changing things at the last second for this outcome. Kicking out straight after 3 when Warrior pinned him. Or even most recently, just look what he did with Shawn Michaels, and you can't even argue the money there, because he intentionally cut a best of 3 series short because he didn't want to lose a match. That's just who he is.
He did want to do a best out of three series with michaels . Hogan was willig to lose a match to that pretty boy . Shawn screwed that up by burying Hogan on raw after Summerslam .
Anytime Eric says Hogan didn’t have anything to gain due to a guarantee contract is bs. That contract will expire and have to be renewed. If he came out and was the shits every time there wouldn’t be a renewal. If he didn’t (rightfully) have the foresight to pick some wins and losses to set up future matches he would lose leverage. Hogan was very smart when it came to his character and the business, knew very well how to set up future matches and runs.
He's not ignoring Hogan, he's covering for him. I think e Eric is reasonably honest and introspective in these podcast, except when it comes to Hogan. He always covers for Hogan.
I remember watching this Starrcade as a teen. I've always wondered why the next night on Nitro, Schiavone called it a fast count when it obviously wasn't. Learn something everyday I guess.
Conrad is fuming and biting his lip the whole podcast, until the sting talk started. Conrad was obviously just leaning back, waiting to explode on Eric. Great stuff
He's nothing but an obese mouth breathing wannabe smart mark that is a meal ticket to the old school carnies like Bruce and Eric that have actually ruled the wrestling world
I would've had Sting fighting off the nwo when they did their eventual run-in. And then Bret Hart comes from the back and fights off guys outside the ring. The end of the match could've been sting putting hogan in his scorpion death lock and outside bret putting nash or hall in the sharpshooter at the same time. They quick glance as the ref rings the bell. Sting takes the belt and goes back up into the rafters as the WCW wrestlers come out to applaud the win, Bret just looks at him. Not only is it a great finish but it leads to an inevitable bret sting title match probably at great American bash 98. I'd have bret beat flair, nash, and eventually Hogan en route to that title match. And sting would face hall, savage, and maybe someone else like a raven or something leading up to it. Boy, the opportunities they missed out on in 98.
@@SmithCommaBenjamin lol it was horrible. 18 months of build all to throw it away on the biggest PPV in company history to poke WWF in the eye. Hogan didn't want to lose clean and Eric is full of shit.
I love how Bischoff skirts around the biggest motive for why Hogan is behind the slow count. The whole world just saw Hulk Hogan clean pin the hottest thing in wrestling not name Steve Austin. The visual everyone will see forever see after the show is Hogan pinning with a slow count.
The hottest thing is wrestling in december 1997 was NWO as it was in 96. Austin taking over happened after wrestlemania 14. Thats when the ratings became more competitive. Fk the houses. Wcw was breaking records for houses too and winning the ratings. Eric's timeline of WCWs decline is obviously bias, but it does make sense. People today forget just how controversial wrestling was in the pre 911 world. Go watch the wrestling hit piece espn put out in 1999. It goes after wwf for having a transgender on a show that kids are watching. When these mergers happened at Turner, it makes complete sense that they would want that shit off their tv. Nowdays, wrestling is viewed as kids programming
@@andrewisjesus Wrong. Nitro was getting bigger, but so was Raw and they were starting to lesson the gap. And Austin was the #1 merchandise mover in all of wrestling, despite being on the #2 show. And that was well before WM14. He just went to another level after that no one had been to before or since.
It’s so weird when Eric says he discovered sting wasn’t ready (underweight, pale, and mentally not with it) ON THE SAME DAY AS THE PPV. So the past 16 months Eric only saw sting in the rafters just like us the fans? Something about that sounds very messed up and inaccurate.
Eric just wanted to please his master Hogan and Hogan didn’t want to lose clean because it would have made him look weak. So whatever Hogan wanted, Eric was going to make happen. This is just the bullshit story they wanted the media to believe.
Yeah it's bullshit...Eric just didn't want to admit that he was and is best buds with hogan. And hogan (Terry) didn't want to lose clean in the spot light. More hogan politics. Pretty much hogan was the demise of TNA.. no wonder Vince didn't care to let him.go. a cancer to the business
Exactly. I always said that. Like he got pale, moody and fat all in one day lol. Hogan as usual pulled his political games and Eric kissed hulks ass like he always did. Then in 1998, hulk played it again saying hey I will drop the title to Goldberg on a nitro missing on millions then in 1999, beats nash a week after nash ended Goldberg streak killing off nash and Goldberg. He was still playing games at bash at the beach 2000.
The last 30 minutes are like HBK vs The Undertaker at Wrestlemania. And yes, Conrad it's Taker...or the scene between Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise in the mother final act of A Few Good Men. He nailed the point of the screwed and goofy finish and the fallout after Starrcade 97. Thanks Eric and Conrad, one of the best showdown of a wrestling podcast in the web.
The finish of Hulk Sting should have had Hulk think he was going to win after the leg drop. While he plays to the crowd, Sting does a Hulk style no sell and gets up to have Hulk desperately throwing punches with no effect. Death drop, deathlock, done.
Noel ComiX But that doesn’t help Hogan in the short term. Only the company and therefore Hogan in the long term. Of course Hogan was a short sighted, idiot belt mark so he went with the short term option.
It’s so funny to think back to this time period I’m not only WCW but also my life and my life as a huge wrestling fan. I knew the lingo and thought of myself as a smart. To a degree I was, but there were things like Bichoff that really mentally got me pissed, and I didn’t even realize I was just a mark in certain regards. Eric Bichoff being one of them. What a magnificent character he was. Total props to you sir. Much respect, but I hate it that the best angle ever got screwed over here. I can’t let that slide.
The fans weren't going to accept anything less than Sting going over clean. Then you had Hogan change his mind that he wanted to go over and we saw Sting get beat twice in two nights. Sting lost his shine and the old WWE boys network were back on top in no time. And I think is laughable that Bischoff both justifies and defends Hogan's "creative control".
@@FingerBreakerWu Yeah with Bischoff in charge, and given some of the mental gymmastics he does to protect, and justify giving Hogan an absurd amount of control, it's not shocking that WCW is gone. It's stunning how the same guy could do so much to grow and build a company, and then do so much to screw up and ruin all of that progress.
burntvirtue Bischoff will always be a legend in his own mind. He didn’t do anything wrong, everyone else did. When he got fired as WCW president in 1999, he was a victim. And don’t even get me started on his stories flip flopping about the talent he ran off that became successful in WWE.
Really i would have to say Starrcade '98 was the beginning of the end with big "Charisma" kevin nash ending the streak, then the finger poke of doom, russo, etc......
I know this comment is extremely late. After Starrcade 97 I quit flipping the channels back and forth. I stuck with WWF from that time forward. They killed the biggest wrestling angle of all time in a horrible match and a jacked up finish.
I wouldn't say it was a triple play. The follow up was a grounder into a triple play. But the event itself was decent besides the ending. And sting still left with the belt. There were a lot of things wrong there. But it could've been worse. They proved that later in the Monday night wars.
@@hellohell77 You're absolutely right. Even tho they fucked the finish, they could have easily bounced back tenfold but instead, they stayed on a steady decline.
I have been a wrestling fan since the AWA days. That was my territory. When Vince stripped AWA of the talent I was watching in the AWA, I went to WWF because that's where my favorite wrestlers ended up going. So when WCW accumulated that generation of talent I jumped ship to WCW. I was a Mark for the Sting t-shirts coming out in 97,98,. I had the throw pillow the Sting Beanie Baby the Bash n Buddy, the Toy Biz action Figures, I saw Nitro live more than once, unfortunately for the two live shows I attended Sting wasn't on the card and did not appear. One show was after he had been injured after wrestling Brett Hart, the second time was the night after the pay per view where Vampiro set Sting on fire. Sting was my guy. But I am also almost fifty years old and was also a fan of KISS. If and this is what I get from both Eric B, Steve Borden himself, and Nick Patrick with all of them Saying Steve was not where he could have been during that match with Steve even coming out and saying no he didn't think the finish would have him winning so he wasn't physically prepared like he should have been, that should be enough for Conrad. But Conrad ignored the two other things Eric said regarding Sting and Harped on just the fact that Bischoff said he wasn't tanned. Mentally Steve wasn't there, and Bischoff said he couldn't; go into it because of Steve. And that Bishoff and Hogan both questioned whether he was going to be able to pull off a finish that would be satisfactory. Borden himself has stated in interviews, he was drinking, he wasn't in shape he was facing a possible divorce at the time of that pay per view, so what the fuck does that have to do with Hogan? Nick Patrick not counting at the right speed? Yes, Patrick has said also that someone told him to count fast and someone told him to slow the count down. It still doesn't change Brett coming out stopping the match and Sting being declared the winner. Was it fucked up? Yeah. As fucking much of a mark as I was for Ace Frehley and Peter Criss during the reunion tour all the way back to seventy-eight, if they were fucked up or were not bringing their best then as disappointed as I may be as a fan I can't very well turn around and start yelling at Gene and Paul because I personally believed Ace and Peter were better. And That's what Conrad did here. I like Conrad, he makes some valid points, but he is also going to stick to his opinions and it doesn't matter if the facts don't match his opinion. Was I disappointed in the Starcade ending? Yeah, I was. I paid for the damn pay per view, Nick clearly did a regular count of the ending of Starcade actually Starcade itself didn't live up to the hype. Did I buy into the Terry Bolea thing? No. I wasn't a big Hulk fan as a kid, I was a Macho Fan, a Warrior fan, a Jesse Ventura fan, A Piper Fan, Bobby Henan Fan, and Undertaker Fan. By the time I switched over to WCW I was Jericho Fan, A Macho Fan, a Piper fan still, a Kevin Nash fan, and a DDP Fan. I bought the PPV and continued to buy the pay per views after. So How does this make it Hulk Hogan or Bischoff's fault if I was the dumb fucker who kept hoping the storylines would get better, and what is screaming and whining twenty-one years later to Bischoff going to do? It's not like we can go back in time using the Delorean and change anything. I personally don't take credence to anything Dave Melzer has said in the past twenty years. That doesn't mean he's always wrong. Shit, even the National Enquirer got a few stories right back in the day. But he has been wrong enough that certain Superstars have publically called him out if his sources have been wrong. All it means is I pay closer attention to what the wrestlers have to say about particular incidents. And not pay attention to Melzer. He's not the performer in the ring, he's not the one running the company, what do his opinions actually mean at the end of the day? I've listened to this podcast episode four times and Listened to Conrad go off because Conrad was disappointed over a particular event or has had a particular opinion he has had for a length of time, and then get upset when what he believes to be true turn out to be false when he hears it from the horse's mouth. As I said I like Conrad, It's his podcast, he is the co-host to three successful podcasts but he does this with JR. He does this with Eric, and he does this with Bruce Pritchard. Why get so upset? Why is it sometimes the truth as unspectacular or wildly different from an opinion you may have formulated twenty years ago and stuck to is enough to get you heated when you are given the factual answer of what happened? And how does it change history now? It doesn't
CONRAD...STING had a drug problem. It hasn't been deeply publicized like others, but it was a Reality. That was WHY you needed an " out " for this finish. Reliability is something that's invaluable. Kudos to ERIC for not burying STING.
Actually Starrcade '97 wasn't as bad as the critics say it was if you go back and watch it-- see for yourself. But I do think people had such high expectations for it and thus it let people down for a couple of reasons: 1) The opening match was terrific, but most of the undercard suffered because of absences and no-shows --- like Kevin Nash, Syxx, and Konnan, and Bobby Heenan on the mike 2) Certain wrestlers for one reason or another, didn't want to wrestle on the PPV- like Konnan, Raven and Scott Hall. Bischoff had to pay the Macho Man a premium just to show up and take Konnan's place in the 3 on 3 tag match. So, the undercard did need some shoring up a bit. 3) Sting was depressed, discouraged, and had not been working out. 4) Hogan like always, was reticent to do a job. But the big one was that: 5) Bischoff really wanted to capitalize on the Survivor Series 1997 controversy by having a screw job of his own. And at first, Bischoff, Sting, Hogan, Hart, Nick Patrick and Schiavone agreed that the screw job would be a fast count. But, somewhere down the line, somebody decided to change the screw job finish from a fast count to Hogan grabbing Sting's tights. And, in all the hoopla and excitement, someone forgot to tell Bret about the new finish. I suppose WCW could have camouflaged this: Schiavonne did yell out that Hogan had cheated by grabbing Sting's tights and perhaps the casual fan would have bought it because he or she would not be paying enough attention to the match. But, changing the finish yet again and not telling Bret proved to be a major blunder because Bret Hart yelled out that there was a fast count on the mike thus exposing the finish. Thus, WCW's screwjob turned into a botch job. Still- it was pretty cool to see Sting get the Bret Hart treatment from WM X from 1994 at the end.
It is funny how so many 'mishaps' happened that benefitted Hogan... The 'fast count' was a big deal, Eric - and it has still yet to be satisfactorily explained. Sorry to say.
@@FingerBreakerWu Yeah because Hogan retaining the strap meant he made more money.........oh wait not it didn't, in fact it didn't benefit Hogan in any way whatsoever. Hogan only cared about money, unlike Bret who signed a contract with Vince for 300 grand a year as long as Vince guaranteed him 4 titles reigns a year. Bret even admits this and the reason he did that is because Bret was and still is a fucking mark.
@@6steveo9 gorilla monsoon said it best if you are not in professional wrestling to make money you are a fool. Which in away is true a lot of these wrestlers will say they love the business because of the fans but we all know it's mostly because of the pay
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
I know I'm late to the conversation but I've reignited my love for wrestling these last 2 years, and just got in to this podcast. After watching hundreds of hours of interviews and documentaries it seems crystal clear to me what happened and frankly I think Bischoff owes Steve Borden a MASSIVE apology. Eric is clearly lying and making excuses which is b*llsh*t and cowardly. The ending of Starrcade 97 was the biggest mistake in WCWs history. Sting deserved to get over Hogan clean, the NWO could've ran in to interfere and the "WCW guys" could've ran in to stop them, stinger splash, scorpion deathlock, Sting defeats the evil Hogan and WCW could've lived happily ever after.
I'm a huge fan of Eric. But he's all over the place on the finish. IMO they should have had the clean finish to Sting, and give everyone the payoff they wanted. THEN screw Sting on the Nitro after.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
This way my favourite storyline in wrestling ever and I thouroughly enjoyed this as a kid growing up. Sting vs the nwo was so crazy that you just had to watch every week just in case u missed something. The fact that anything could happen on nitro made me each and the believability of the heat between sting and the nwo particularly Hogan was incredible. This was way cooler than Austin vs Mr McMahon that the WWF did 5months after Starrcade 97. Personally I think this storyline that lasted about 18 months from start to finish with Sting is highly underappreciated. When will you ever see the longevity of a story told in a wrestling storyline of today's era? The answer is you won't!
Using Sting being untanned as an excuse is beyond ridiculous - Being tanned didn't suit Sting's gimmick at the time *_at all_* anyway - he was supposed to be a gothic, brooding "The Crow" inspired loner. It made sense for him to be pale. Imagine if Brandon Lee had a spray tan on during the movie The Crow lol
The entire match made no sense. -Why would the nWo just allow that match to happen? Good thing they sent the heavy hitters in Bagwell and Norton to save Hogan.. -Bret making the save is payback for his screwjob... how exactly? Not seeing another screwjob is... revenge? -At this point, fans were over Hart anyways. WCW fans just didn't care about him (see his entire WCW run) -Nick Patrick was either in on it, or he's the worst ref in wrestling history. -Sting fights off the entire nWo for 18 months, yet can't get any offense in against 1 guy? ALL of this... to give Sting the belt at Starrcade, the next night on Nitro, at Superbrawl and 1 PPV title defense (Hall) before dropping to Savage in a transition to a Hogan/Savage story (and Sting was tan by this point). Not much loyalty to the "flag bearer" of WCW.
And then he became a bit player in the NWO Red vs Black storyline after. Kinda a slap in the face really. Wasn't much relevant at all after the spring of 98.
You take this comical shit way too serious. You are exactly what is wrong with wrestling fandom. You probably watch the trash they put on today with Roman Raines and Cena. Pure unwatchable junk.
I've been waiting to hear about Starrcade 97 since this podcast started! Excellent show as I listened to it several times already. Conrad really prodded Eric and.. Eric did come off kind of bad. Eric pretty much gave his side of the story and you see what the biggest difference between he and Vince McMahon: Eric trusted his talent too much, while Vince would have made sure a finish like that would never happen in a billion years. I think Conrad at times is too harsh on Eric when it comes to the booking of everything in the company. Eric was not a micro manager (which people now knock the WWE for) and trusted individuals to do certain jobs that at times, like in this particular instance, he should have stepped in. The whole thing was dumb, but I agree with Eric: Sting still won the belt, the fans went ballistic and WCW was still hot all throughout 1998.. but what happened before the finish really does not make much sense and I'd love to hear Sting and Hogan's side of the story!
I agree. I listened to this a few times and they clearly worked out the last 30 mins ahead of time. As if there's a lot to the story they're not talking about, but both know the listeners want Conrad to lay into Eric so they do that.
None of this makes sense when you consider that Hogan had jobbed clean countless times even during the immediate buildup to this. The dude was put out by a Piper sleeper hold THREE different times. He submitted to the Torture Rack on live TV. How or why would he have been afraid of looking weak?
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Wow a 3hr Bischoff show. I enjoy this podcast but i absolutely cannot stand when Eric gets asked a question, then he takes a deep breath through his teeth and pauses for 3 or 4 seconds to formulate an answer that doesn't sound like complete BS.
This PPV was OK & I was pissed that we didn't get to see Nash vs. Giant until a month later & also was pissed because Nash never wanted to put the Giant over
Bischoff lies like a fucking rug. A Hogan Yes Man. Hogan got what he wanted in the end. Conrad ate Bischoff's ass up at the end of this. Total Magic Conrad. Love ur passion.
This narrative that Sting showed up to Starrcade in poor shape seems like nonsense to me. What exactly is it based on? His gear covering more of his body? He wore that type of singlet for months before this as part of the new look for his "silent warrior/Crow" gimmick. He wasn't as tan as Hogan? Nobody on Earth has ever been as tan as Hogan. Sting's Emo character should be pale anyway. My point is that he performed physically just fine, and his "being out of shape" is the flimsiest excuse in the world for Hogan to not put him over cleanly when it was absolutely the time to do business.
burntvirtue he looked good to me. He was lean. His arms were all you could see. They were in good shape. And his skin tone fit what he was doing at the time. I call bullshit on the excuse. I think it was a cop out that Hogan wanted to use to hold on to the top spot. I’ve heard this from both Hogan & Bischoff. But Sting, who is very open and honest about his personal life and career, doesn’t say anything like this. He won’t say his opinions on what happened in the finish or why. But what little information he does give, he says that Hogan and Bischoff were constantly back and forth consulting and debating in private what was going to happen. And Sting just had to sit there and wait for them to decide. He just wanted them to tell him if he was taking the title or not. They jerked him around. I feel like this, like everything else, came down to ego for Hogan.
Smith HR Stings the guy everyone wants as a main event star as a promoter. A guy who gets ITS A FUCKING WORK. God, stupid ass Hogan. Just drop the belt clean. It’s. Not. REAL. Of course there are times like this where it would be better if Sting fought a bit more, cause anyone who isn’t delusional knows the only finish that made sense was Hogan submitting in the middle of the ring, 100% cleanly, after getting destroyed for 10 minutes.
It’s reads to me as though it’s not really about this match but the concerns they had about Sting being able to be the main face of the company as champion. I think the message, they made Sting look weaker or not as strong so as to be able to take the belt off him.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Bischoff loses credibility here regarding the Hogan v Sting finish. 1. If Sting showed up in less than adequate condition, the plan would pivot to having him lose and not become champion. Changing the plan from a clean finish with Sting on top to a screw job finish where Sting still ends the night on top doesn't make any sense in this context. 2. Why would there even be a referee lottery if the plan from the beginning was a clean finish? If the original concept was for Sting to win it outright, the official would play no role. Clearly WCW always intended use a screw job finish or they wouldn't have had a referee lottery that a heel ref won. 3. It's also obvious the finish was planned to utilize Bret Hart as an official and try to get him involved in the main event. I think it's fair to say that the plan from the start was a stupid, convoluted screwball ending where Bret saves the day and Sting walks out as champion. Sting's condition was not a factor in this clearly pre-planned finish. Unfortunately, WCW, in true WCW fashion outsmarted themselves and fucked up an already poorly booked match exacerbating the problem. They destroyed a year of build up and let WWF back into the race during the ensuing fallout. Bischoff claiming that this finish was planned the day of the event is nothing short of a lie.
"and let WWF back into the race" ... the messed up finish hurt WCW but it was no condition for the WWF to get back into the race - their new Attitude storylines (regardles of what I think of them) would have drawn even if WCW had made no mistakes.
st r True. Once WWF survived 96-97, WCW never had a chance of actually permanently winning the MNW and certainly no chance of ending the WWF. The absolute best they could hope for was a stalemate by the time WM 14 came around.
I never saw anything bad with finish hes right i started hearing it yrs later. But if anything hogan dropping title to luger weeks before took away from hogan vs sting match.
Bullshit Eric. Sting looked fine. He was lean. His arms were huge. His skin tone was perfectly fine for his character. And he could go. How much time did these people have to notice that he was pale and out of shape? They never saw him until time for Starrcade, and then were like “oh, we better rethink this”? Give me a break. It’s a cop out. Hogan and Bischoff tell this side of things. Sting, who actually has a track record of honesty and transparency, especially regarding his life choices, doesn’t mention this. He talks about all the closed door meetings Hogan & Bischoff had without him about the match. Constant back and forth about whether or not to let Hogan drop the strap. But never giving Sting an answer. As far as the match and the finish, Sting refuses to point fingers or speculate on what went down. What was intentional and what was accidental. He only says Hogan’s knees were bad. His own personal life was a mess. And it just didn’t turn out like they’d hoped. It wasn’t Sting’s body that was the problem. Was he maybe a little checked out? Sure. But say that. Stop making excuses to cover that this was really about Hogan’s ego and giving up the top spot.
One thing I’ll say for Eric is he has made me appreciate Dean Malenko a lot more as a character, previously I bought into the narrative that Dean was a great technician with zero charisma but now I watch for the subtleties in his performances.
The problem Conrad raises at the end (but then strangely lets go) is the question: Which one is it? Why was the outcome changed from a clean Sting victory to a screwy finish (which Nick Patrick then botched)? Was it because Sting lacked his tan or was it to give Bret Hart an opening? Don't pretend like the two just coincidentally arrived at the same time to result in this finish. So which one is it, Eric?!
Michaels had 2 herniated discs and a compressed disc going into that match. On top of that he hit a turnbuckle wrong and totally blew his back out. Not even the selfish 90s Shawn Michaels would’ve been able to screw Austin out of a win that night.
@@FadeIn2Obscurity if some stories from the Undertaker and Bruce Prichard are to be believed, it sounds like he kinda was. You never know what's what, but the Undertaker telling Shawn to do the job or else, idk.
NWO should had ended at starrcade with Hogan being in the middle of the ring and all the members of the NWO coming in and tossing their nwo shirts at Hogan's motionless body.
Are you friggin nuts end it that quickly no way all the great stuff that happened the next year Nwo is 4 Life your stupid Hogan won cleanly Sting suxs he lost he's a typical Babyface idiot Nwo 4life
Eric said "Was Bret for WCW or was Bret for the NWO? The storyline played out perfectly" in the Bischoff/Zybysko match. I couldn't disagree more! I thought the Bret ref stuff came off so awkward in that match. It was a terrible way to use Bret. On the finish to Sting/Hogan I can't even take Bischoff seriously. If Sting was in such bad shape why put the Title on him at all? Then he says well we stripped him LMAO yes and then gave him the Title AGAIN!!! To say it was a miscommunication is insane. Nobody after 18 months thought to clarify the finish with Patrick, Hogan, Sting? Give me a break! Not hard to see why Eric oversaw a company that booked Starrcade '97 + '98 and don't forget the Finger Poke. I can't believe he tried to defend the finish to Sting/Hogan lol just terrible!
Go watch the Sting documentary on WWE Network. Eric gives a different account of what happened and so does Sting. It's not completely different but it's enough so that you will be able to see the truth. Hogan just did not want to lose clean.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Can someone please explain something to me. OK, Sting's head wasn't in the right place. He was out of it or whatever. So...then why are you screwing the finish to have Sting leave with the belt? Not to mention, you simply put the belt back on Sting at SuperBrawl anyway. What was different about Sting at that point?
The only matches on this show that were booked correctly were DDP-Hennig (although it would have been *so* much better if it could have been Flair) and, believe it or not, Zbyszko-Bischoff.
MuzikAddickt it’s the worst. “Meltzer would report” fat Conrad the guy was wrong on everything he reported according to your podcast, why does he still talk about this loser....
The ending to the main event of Starrcade 1997 was a huge middle finger to the face of the fans. It totally fucked up everything. It made no sense. Sting should have gone over cleanly. His momentum was ruined. Nobody could suggest with a straight face that the finish was adequate.
@1:06:37 i remember in the late 90s espn (subsidiary of abc/disney) began running stories about the negative side of the wrestling industry (steroids, poor health, etc) since wrestling, both wwf & wcw became so popular, it was threatening monday night football's ratings.
Why did Sting need a tan?? He was technically a lost soul. So basically have Hogan beat up Sting for 90% match and him losing clean was the best you could do?? Bret didnt even look good in this cause he hit a ref that did nothing wrong lol. This looks like Hogan did something on the fly here
This stuff is amazing. As a long time griever of WCW dying, I Never thought this stuff would ever be re-told like this 20 yrs later. Loving it
I'm still bitter that ECW got it's own show and brand after the buyout but WCW didn't. WCW and it's titles had so much more prestige than anything in ECW.
@@generalkayoss7347 I feel the same, but ECW was a huge deal too. I never watched ECW back in the day, but let's give credit where credit is due. The only reason it wasn't as big as WCW and WWF was because it didn't have much of anything for financial backing. If it had the money behind it that those 2 promotions did, they would have been quite a threat and those titles would have a ton of prestige. Much of their talent (and *maybe* a few ideas) were stolen by both companies. If not for ECW, that era of wrestling might not have been as great as it was.
@@JMFSpike Couldn't of said it better myself!!! Long live Philadelphia and ECW!!
@Keagan Juelz Enough with that spammy shit.
@Rudy Makai As your buddy or alter ego chimes in....
"You f****d the finish over a tan?!? Is this real!!!???"
😂😂😂
Conrad and Eric arguing with the finish of Hogan vs Sting was classic.
Conrad nuts Hogan won cleanly n that's it
Did you buy him a tanning bed! that line just cracked me up. the best part is the last 25 minutes or so arguing over the screw finish.
What Eric doesn't grasp is that it was Hulk's EGO not his checkbook driving things... same reason Brett wouldn't drop the belt to HBK in Canada is the same mindset that drives Hogan. Its not enough to earn a ton of $$ they want to also be PERCEIVED as the top guy .. and the top guy has the strap, brotha..
I love that Conrad got fired up about the Sting and Hogan bullshit
Conrad doesn’t sell out lol
Man, i'm so grateful for the opportunity to have heard this conversation. What an honor to reflect on so many great memories
Take a drink every time Conrad says "Meltzer says"
You wouldn't be able to finish the show
Fuck Meltzer
I would have alcohol poisoning
Hell no, I like having a functional liver.
I did...I been dead of alcohol poisoning for the last 2 hours.
Hogan vs Sting may actually be among the best (if not THE best) builds in wrestling history.
And the biggest example of needing to truly know your product instead of pulling it out of your rear. Biggest angle of all time, with the worst screwup payoff of all time.
I honestly can not think of any other match that had any where near the length of build-up. Every week on Nitro, you knew you were getting closer and closer to the payoff. They did such a great job with this whole storyline...right up to the payoff. As soon as Sting came out and took his trench coat off, everything in my soul said "uhmm..wait. somethings not right here...oh no." And, My God it all went to shit during and after this pay per view.
@@jaklinds7413 1,000% correct. The way Starrcade 97 played out, combined with the fact that WCW was out of business just over 3 years later exposes the fact that Bischoff's run in charge of the company was mostly comprised of luck, and smoke & mirrors. Nothing Bischoff says here does anything to make anyone think otherwise.
@@aaronstockton7373 Give me a break. Nothing about the way Sting looked was off in a big enough way to be a factor. Bischoff himself says it was the equivalent of "ketchup on his shirt". How does that justify wasting a year and a half of primetime television on a major cable network, and millions of dollars of build-up for the hottest angle in all of wrestling, and the biggest financial success in company history?!?!
@@burntvirtue The year after was as bad. Hottest babyface in Goldberg loses to Nash, only to have it lead to an NWO reformation a week later. Biggest couple years each end with duds. Says it all really.
Bischoff: "You done? Geez, Conrad. Settle down, big man. I don't you to bust a blood vessel doing this stuff."
conrad is a fucking tool. just yelling to get more attention to the podcast.
Just finished listening to all of the podcast and it was awesome!! I want a "That doesn't work for me brother!!" t-shirt!!
I was in attendance at Starrcade 97. When Macho Man came out to wrestle unadvertised, that was one of the highlights for me
Actual Starrcade talk starts at 1:29:50 but the lead-up is pretty good as well.
the goth crow character sting was playing definitely needed to be tanned.
I was thinking the same thing
Meh,,, didn't notice. Didn't matter to me
The missing piece to his character definitely. Damn.
@J D Or it's just.....a joke? Ever consider that?
@J D Well he did explain that wasn't the main issue. I think it's fair to say that the point is a bit exaggerated
The best 83 weeks episode 🦂
The best crowd reaction was for sting to Squash Hogan. And I'm a Hogan mark.
Bischoff on giving Sting the title at SuperBrawl 1998: "I don't know the answer to that."
I believe Eric's side of the story, but the thing he's ignoring is Hogan's ego. Sure, Hogan didn't stand to gain additional money in the wrestling business, but he was all about appearances, and in his own head the wins and loses (and how those loses came about) did matter. And anyone who thinks otherwise is just not wanting to see the reality.
And it's not even all Hogan's fault. The nature of the business and the position he was in negatively encourages that mindset. Austin was just as bad iirc. But as such, it's entirely believable that Hogan called the change in the finish to make himself look better. He has a long reputation of changing things at the last second for this outcome. Kicking out straight after 3 when Warrior pinned him. Or even most recently, just look what he did with Shawn Michaels, and you can't even argue the money there, because he intentionally cut a best of 3 series short because he didn't want to lose a match. That's just who he is.
He did want to do a best out of three series with michaels . Hogan was willig to lose a match to that pretty boy . Shawn screwed that up by burying Hogan on raw after Summerslam .
Anytime Eric says Hogan didn’t have anything to gain due to a guarantee contract is bs. That contract will expire and have to be renewed. If he came out and was the shits every time there wouldn’t be a renewal. If he didn’t (rightfully) have the foresight to pick some wins and losses to set up future matches he would lose leverage. Hogan was very smart when it came to his character and the business, knew very well how to set up future matches and runs.
@@danadabrowski1936 plz go do more research on the matter. This statement you made is completely wrong.
He's not ignoring Hogan, he's covering for him. I think e Eric is reasonably honest and introspective in these podcast, except when it comes to Hogan. He always covers for Hogan.
agree
I listen to this a few times per year. Back for another listen. I havent watched wrestling since '99 or so.
I remember watching this Starrcade as a teen. I've always wondered why the next night on Nitro, Schiavone called it a fast count when it obviously wasn't. Learn something everyday I guess.
Conrad is fuming and biting his lip the whole podcast, until the sting talk started. Conrad was obviously just leaning back, waiting to explode on Eric. Great stuff
He's nothing but an obese mouth breathing wannabe smart mark that is a meal ticket to the old school carnies like Bruce and Eric that have actually ruled the wrestling world
Should've had a clean finish. If they wanted to get Bret involved, use him as an enforcer to fight off nWo interference.
I would've had Sting fighting off the nwo when they did their eventual run-in. And then Bret Hart comes from the back and fights off guys outside the ring. The end of the match could've been sting putting hogan in his scorpion death lock and outside bret putting nash or hall in the sharpshooter at the same time. They quick glance as the ref rings the bell. Sting takes the belt and goes back up into the rafters as the WCW wrestlers come out to applaud the win, Bret just looks at him. Not only is it a great finish but it leads to an inevitable bret sting title match probably at great American bash 98. I'd have bret beat flair, nash, and eventually Hogan en route to that title match. And sting would face hall, savage, and maybe someone else like a raven or something leading up to it. Boy, the opportunities they missed out on in 98.
The finish was great. It was simply botched/sabotaged
@@SmithCommaBenjamin lol it was horrible. 18 months of build all to throw it away on the biggest PPV in company history to poke WWF in the eye. Hogan didn't want to lose clean and Eric is full of shit.
I love how Bischoff skirts around the biggest motive for why Hogan is behind the slow count. The whole world just saw Hulk Hogan clean pin the hottest thing in wrestling not name Steve Austin. The visual everyone will see forever see after the show is Hogan pinning with a slow count.
The hottest thing is wrestling in december 1997 was NWO as it was in 96. Austin taking over happened after wrestlemania 14.
Thats when the ratings became more competitive. Fk the houses. Wcw was breaking records for houses too and winning the ratings.
Eric's timeline of WCWs decline is obviously bias, but it does make sense. People today forget just how controversial wrestling was in the pre 911 world. Go watch the wrestling hit piece espn put out in 1999. It goes after wwf for having a transgender on a show that kids are watching. When these mergers happened at Turner, it makes complete sense that they would want that shit off their tv.
Nowdays, wrestling is viewed as kids programming
@@andrewisjesus Wrong. Nitro was getting bigger, but so was Raw and they were starting to lesson the gap.
And Austin was the #1 merchandise mover in all of wrestling, despite being on the #2 show. And that was well before WM14. He just went to another level after that no one had been to before or since.
It was a botched move sting was supposed to kick out. Hogan drops another and then the fast count.
It’s so weird when Eric says he discovered sting wasn’t ready (underweight, pale, and mentally not with it) ON THE SAME DAY AS THE PPV. So the past 16 months Eric only saw sting in the rafters just like us the fans? Something about that sounds very messed up and inaccurate.
Eric just wanted to please his master Hogan and Hogan didn’t want to lose clean because it would have made him look weak. So whatever Hogan wanted, Eric was going to make happen. This is just the bullshit story they wanted the media to believe.
Yeah it's bullshit...Eric just didn't want to admit that he was and is best buds with hogan. And hogan (Terry) didn't want to lose clean in the spot light. More hogan politics. Pretty much hogan was the demise of TNA.. no wonder Vince didn't care to let him.go. a cancer to the business
@@mattgeer8479 why did you say Terry 🤣
Did you get him a tanning bed? WTF changed?
Exactly. I always said that. Like he got pale, moody and fat all in one day lol. Hogan as usual pulled his political games and Eric kissed hulks ass like he always did. Then in 1998, hulk played it again saying hey I will drop the title to Goldberg on a nitro missing on millions then in 1999, beats nash a week after nash ended Goldberg streak killing off nash and Goldberg. He was still playing games at bash at the beach 2000.
The last 30 minutes are like HBK vs The Undertaker at Wrestlemania. And yes, Conrad it's Taker...or the scene between Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise in the mother final act of A Few Good Men.
He nailed the point of the screwed and goofy finish and the fallout after Starrcade 97.
Thanks Eric and Conrad, one of the best showdown of a wrestling podcast in the web.
Another great installment of 83 Weeks..insightful, informative, engaging and entertaining. Great job Eric and Conrad as always.
The finish of Hulk Sting should have had Hulk think he was going to win after the leg drop. While he plays to the crowd, Sting does a Hulk style no sell and gets up to have Hulk desperately throwing punches with no effect. Death drop, deathlock, done.
Noel ComiX But that doesn’t help Hogan in the short term. Only the company and therefore Hogan in the long term. Of course Hogan was a short sighted, idiot belt mark so he went with the short term option.
you should book for wwe
That's not gonna work for me, Brother. I'm thinking big boot, leg drop, 1, 2, 3....
@@KobaAM who had a longer and more successful career than Hogan?
Listening to these two talk about Sting and Hogan near the end is gold.
It’s so funny to think back to this time period I’m not only WCW but also my life and my life as a huge wrestling fan. I knew the lingo and thought of myself as a smart. To a degree I was, but there were things like Bichoff that really mentally got me pissed, and I didn’t even realize I was just a mark in certain regards. Eric Bichoff being one of them. What a magnificent character he was. Total props to you sir. Much respect, but I hate it that the best angle ever got screwed over here. I can’t let that slide.
The last half an hour of this is pure fire!
DAMN the last 30 minutes were phucking fierce, WHEW......thank u conrad and eric. cant wait for next week and the aftermath of this episode.
Starrcade 97 the beginning of the end of WCW IMO
Yes. This is absolutely where the key speed bump in their momentum occurred, and set off the damage that would come afterward.
The fans weren't going to accept anything less than Sting going over clean. Then you had Hogan change his mind that he wanted to go over and we saw Sting get beat twice in two nights. Sting lost his shine and the old WWE boys network were back on top in no time. And I think is laughable that Bischoff both justifies and defends Hogan's "creative control".
@@FingerBreakerWu Yeah with Bischoff in charge, and given some of the mental gymmastics he does to protect, and justify giving Hogan an absurd amount of control, it's not shocking that WCW is gone. It's stunning how the same guy could do so much to grow and build a company, and then do so much to screw up and ruin all of that progress.
burntvirtue
Bischoff will always be a legend in his own mind. He didn’t do anything wrong, everyone else did. When he got fired as WCW president in 1999, he was a victim. And don’t even get me started on his stories flip flopping about the talent he ran off that became successful in WWE.
Really i would have to say Starrcade '98 was the beginning of the end with big "Charisma" kevin nash ending the streak, then the finger poke of doom, russo, etc......
I'm really glad Vincent was on the show, that's all."..... Best. Line. Ever.
I know this comment is extremely late. After Starrcade 97 I quit flipping the channels back and forth. I stuck with WWF from that time forward. They killed the biggest wrestling angle of all time in a horrible match and a jacked up finish.
Thank you Conrad Thompson for telling Eric everything I wanted to say...God bless you brother. ..
WCW could have hit a grand slam with this ppv, instead they grounded into a triple play.
I wouldn't say it was a triple play. The follow up was a grounder into a triple play. But the event itself was decent besides the ending. And sting still left with the belt. There were a lot of things wrong there. But it could've been worse. They proved that later in the Monday night wars.
@@hellohell77 You got that right, dude👍
@@hellohell77 You're absolutely right. Even tho they fucked the finish, they could have easily bounced back tenfold but instead, they stayed on a steady decline.
Stings entrance was awesome. Probably one of the best entrances in any promotion
I have been a wrestling fan since the AWA days. That was my territory. When Vince stripped AWA of the talent I was watching in the AWA, I went to WWF because that's where my favorite wrestlers ended up going. So when WCW accumulated that generation of talent I jumped ship to WCW. I was a Mark for the Sting t-shirts coming out in 97,98,. I had the throw pillow the Sting Beanie Baby the Bash n Buddy, the Toy Biz action Figures, I saw Nitro live more than once, unfortunately for the two live shows I attended Sting wasn't on the card and did not appear. One show was after he had been injured after wrestling Brett Hart, the second time was the night after the pay per view where Vampiro set Sting on fire. Sting was my guy. But I am also almost fifty years old and was also a fan of KISS. If and this is what I get from both Eric B, Steve Borden himself, and Nick Patrick with all of them Saying Steve was not where he could have been during that match with Steve even coming out and saying no he didn't think the finish would have him winning so he wasn't physically prepared like he should have been, that should be enough for Conrad. But Conrad ignored the two other things Eric said regarding Sting and Harped on just the fact that Bischoff said he wasn't tanned. Mentally Steve wasn't there, and Bischoff said he couldn't; go into it because of Steve. And that Bishoff and Hogan both questioned whether he was going to be able to pull off a finish that would be satisfactory. Borden himself has stated in interviews, he was drinking, he wasn't in shape he was facing a possible divorce at the time of that pay per view, so what the fuck does that have to do with Hogan? Nick Patrick not counting at the right speed? Yes, Patrick has said also that someone told him to count fast and someone told him to slow the count down. It still doesn't change Brett coming out stopping the match and Sting being declared the winner. Was it fucked up? Yeah. As fucking much of a mark as I was for Ace Frehley and Peter Criss during the reunion tour all the way back to seventy-eight, if they were fucked up or were not bringing their best then as disappointed as I may be as a fan I can't very well turn around and start yelling at Gene and Paul because I personally believed Ace and Peter were better. And That's what Conrad did here. I like Conrad, he makes some valid points, but he is also going to stick to his opinions and it doesn't matter if the facts don't match his opinion. Was I disappointed in the Starcade ending? Yeah, I was. I paid for the damn pay per view, Nick clearly did a regular count of the ending of Starcade actually Starcade itself didn't live up to the hype. Did I buy into the Terry Bolea thing? No. I wasn't a big Hulk fan as a kid, I was a Macho Fan, a Warrior fan, a Jesse Ventura fan, A Piper Fan, Bobby Henan Fan, and Undertaker Fan. By the time I switched over to WCW I was Jericho Fan, A Macho Fan, a Piper fan still, a Kevin Nash fan, and a DDP Fan. I bought the PPV and continued to buy the pay per views after. So How does this make it Hulk Hogan or Bischoff's fault if I was the dumb fucker who kept hoping the storylines would get better, and what is screaming and whining twenty-one years later to Bischoff going to do? It's not like we can go back in time using the Delorean and change anything. I personally don't take credence to anything Dave Melzer has said in the past twenty years. That doesn't mean he's always wrong. Shit, even the National Enquirer got a few stories right back in the day. But he has been wrong enough that certain Superstars have publically called him out if his sources have been wrong. All it means is I pay closer attention to what the wrestlers have to say about particular incidents. And not pay attention to Melzer. He's not the performer in the ring, he's not the one running the company, what do his opinions actually mean at the end of the day? I've listened to this podcast episode four times and Listened to Conrad go off because Conrad was disappointed over a particular event or has had a particular opinion he has had for a length of time, and then get upset when what he believes to be true turn out to be false when he hears it from the horse's mouth. As I said I like Conrad, It's his podcast, he is the co-host to three successful podcasts but he does this with JR. He does this with Eric, and he does this with Bruce Pritchard. Why get so upset? Why is it sometimes the truth as unspectacular or wildly different from an opinion you may have formulated twenty years ago and stuck to is enough to get you heated when you are given the factual answer of what happened? And how does it change history now? It doesn't
These longer shoots are great but the dam ads are brutal.
I love how conrad was trolling the shit outta eric towards the end lol Eric didn't bite though
He wasn't trolling. It was him thinking he knew what was going on when his fat behind was not there backstage
2:54:32 Conrad goes ape shit 😂😂
who cares what sting "looked" like... he was perfectly able to perform. this whole scenario makes zero sense
He was out of shape he didn't do one body slam.
Sting was as hot as the nWo and Austin at the time. They totally killed him with that finish and the awful follow up
@@georgeasimakos1744 "Sting was as hot as the nWo"
That's not gonna work for me, brother.
#ThatDoesntWorkForMeBrother Hahaha
It doesn’t make sense because its lies
CONRAD...STING had a drug problem. It hasn't been deeply publicized like others, but it was a Reality. That was WHY you needed an " out " for this finish. Reliability is something that's invaluable. Kudos to ERIC for not burying STING.
Bingo… BUT i think conrad knows that and wants to push Eric to dish the dirt - pretty slimy…
I've got 2 words 4 ya!!! Great episode. 😁
What was Bischoff doing in the backround? Mixing cocktails for Hogan?
Actually Starrcade '97 wasn't as bad as the critics say it was if you go back and watch it-- see for yourself. But I do think people had such high expectations for it and thus it let people down for a couple of reasons:
1) The opening match was terrific, but most of the undercard suffered because of absences and no-shows --- like Kevin Nash, Syxx, and Konnan, and Bobby Heenan on the mike
2) Certain wrestlers for one reason or another, didn't want to wrestle on the PPV- like Konnan, Raven and Scott Hall. Bischoff had to pay the Macho Man a premium just to show up and take Konnan's place in the 3 on 3 tag match. So, the undercard did need some shoring up a bit.
3) Sting was depressed, discouraged, and had not been working out.
4) Hogan like always, was reticent to do a job.
But the big one was that:
5) Bischoff really wanted to capitalize on the Survivor Series 1997 controversy by having a screw job of his own. And at first, Bischoff, Sting, Hogan, Hart, Nick Patrick and Schiavone agreed that the screw job would be a fast count. But, somewhere down the line, somebody decided to change the screw job finish from a fast count to Hogan grabbing Sting's tights. And, in all the hoopla and excitement, someone forgot to tell Bret about the new finish.
I suppose WCW could have camouflaged this: Schiavonne did yell out that Hogan had cheated by grabbing Sting's tights and perhaps the casual fan would have bought it because he or she would not be paying enough attention to the match. But, changing the finish yet again and not telling Bret proved to be a major blunder because Bret Hart yelled out that there was a fast count on the mike thus exposing the finish. Thus, WCW's screwjob turned into a botch job.
Still- it was pretty cool to see Sting get the Bret Hart treatment from WM X from 1994 at the end.
It is funny how so many 'mishaps' happened that benefitted Hogan... The 'fast count' was a big deal, Eric - and it has still yet to be satisfactorily explained. Sorry to say.
Hogan even said he went over with Nick Patrick on how fast to count the fall. He was planting his own screwjob.
@@FingerBreakerWu Yeah because Hogan retaining the strap meant he made more money.........oh wait not it didn't, in fact it didn't benefit Hogan in any way whatsoever. Hogan only cared about money, unlike Bret who signed a contract with Vince for 300 grand a year as long as Vince guaranteed him 4 titles reigns a year. Bret even admits this and the reason he did that is because Bret was and still is a fucking mark.
Yeah, Hogan almost singlehandedly built WWF into an international success and then went heel and beat them at inferior WCW. Wake up dumbass.
@@6steveo9 gorilla monsoon said it best if you are not in professional wrestling to make money you are a fool. Which in away is true a lot of these wrestlers will say they love the business because of the fans but we all know it's mostly because of the pay
And Tyson counted way too fast at WM14 and you know what? Nobody cares
lol I love this.."Calm down Conrad!"
Bischoff's logic still doesn't really explain the screwup at Starrcade.
I don't think it's logic. I think he (and whoever else) just fucked it up.
@@jeffreyriley8742 LMAO!
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
I will save you all three hours. Basically, Bischoff says it was all Sting’s fault. Conrad gets hot and mad dogs Bischoff over it.
I know I'm late to the conversation but I've reignited my love for wrestling these last 2 years, and just got in to this podcast. After watching hundreds of hours of interviews and documentaries it seems crystal clear to me what happened and frankly I think Bischoff owes Steve Borden a MASSIVE apology. Eric is clearly lying and making excuses which is b*llsh*t and cowardly. The ending of Starrcade 97 was the biggest mistake in WCWs history. Sting deserved to get over Hogan clean, the NWO could've ran in to interfere and the "WCW guys" could've ran in to stop them, stinger splash, scorpion deathlock, Sting defeats the evil Hogan and WCW could've lived happily ever after.
I'm a huge fan of Eric. But he's all over the place on the finish. IMO they should have had the clean finish to Sting, and give everyone the payoff they wanted. THEN screw Sting on the Nitro after.
I feel like Eric talks a ton of shit, but I've always been a huge fan and find him somehow oddly endearing lol
The problem is Hogan is notorious for this. Did it to Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 9. "That's not gonna work for me brother."
Hogans ego couldn’t handle it.
Or get him a tan before nitro
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
This way my favourite storyline in wrestling ever and I thouroughly enjoyed this as a kid growing up. Sting vs the nwo was so crazy that you just had to watch every week just in case u missed something. The fact that anything could happen on nitro made me each and the believability of the heat between sting and the nwo particularly Hogan was incredible. This was way cooler than Austin vs Mr McMahon that the WWF did 5months after Starrcade 97. Personally I think this storyline that lasted about 18 months from start to finish with Sting is highly underappreciated. When will you ever see the longevity of a story told in a wrestling storyline of today's era? The answer is you won't!
Using Sting being untanned as an excuse is beyond ridiculous - Being tanned didn't suit Sting's gimmick at the time *_at all_* anyway - he was supposed to be a gothic, brooding "The Crow" inspired loner. It made sense for him to be pale. Imagine if Brandon Lee had a spray tan on during the movie The Crow lol
Damn the back and forth about the finish was gold😂
Eric is right. I could care less about Meltzer's stars.
Noel ComiX meltzer would report ...........
The entire match made no sense.
-Why would the nWo just allow that match to happen? Good thing they sent the heavy hitters in Bagwell and Norton to save Hogan..
-Bret making the save is payback for his screwjob... how exactly? Not seeing another screwjob is... revenge?
-At this point, fans were over Hart anyways. WCW fans just didn't care about him (see his entire WCW run)
-Nick Patrick was either in on it, or he's the worst ref in wrestling history.
-Sting fights off the entire nWo for 18 months, yet can't get any offense in against 1 guy?
ALL of this... to give Sting the belt at Starrcade, the next night on Nitro, at Superbrawl and 1 PPV title defense (Hall) before dropping to Savage in a transition to a Hogan/Savage story (and Sting was tan by this point). Not much loyalty to the "flag bearer" of WCW.
And then he became a bit player in the NWO Red vs Black storyline after. Kinda a slap in the face really. Wasn't much relevant at all after the spring of 98.
well said
It's pro wrestling. Don't be so logical. You kinda have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it.
all i hear is wah wah wah!! ur mother teach u how to be a little bitch? lol
You take this comical shit way too serious. You are exactly what is wrong with wrestling fandom. You probably watch the trash they put on today with Roman Raines and Cena. Pure unwatchable junk.
I've been waiting to hear about Starrcade 97 since this podcast started! Excellent show as I listened to it several times already. Conrad really prodded Eric and.. Eric did come off kind of bad. Eric pretty much gave his side of the story and you see what the biggest difference between he and Vince McMahon: Eric trusted his talent too much, while Vince would have made sure a finish like that would never happen in a billion years. I think Conrad at times is too harsh on Eric when it comes to the booking of everything in the company. Eric was not a micro manager (which people now knock the WWE for) and trusted individuals to do certain jobs that at times, like in this particular instance, he should have stepped in. The whole thing was dumb, but I agree with Eric: Sting still won the belt, the fans went ballistic and WCW was still hot all throughout 1998.. but what happened before the finish really does not make much sense and I'd love to hear Sting and Hogan's side of the story!
U know,it took listening through this twice,but I've decided conrad and Eric have strategically worked us all. Bravo guys......get the views brother.
I agree. I listened to this a few times and they clearly worked out the last 30 mins ahead of time. As if there's a lot to the story they're not talking about, but both know the listeners want Conrad to lay into Eric so they do that.
None of this makes sense when you consider that Hogan had jobbed clean countless times even during the immediate buildup to this. The dude was put out by a Piper sleeper hold THREE different times. He submitted to the Torture Rack on live TV. How or why would he have been afraid of looking weak?
For the same reason he kicked THE INSTANT after Warrior beat him. Not all losses are the same.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
I'm proud someone finally confronted Bishoff over this bullshit. Way to go Conrad!
WCW NWO Revenge was and is the best video game ever!
Conrad oversold his outrage
By the way the Guayaki Yerba Mate tea is awesome Eric! Thanks letting us know about it!
I was in attendance for this Starrcade. MCI Center was brand new, at the time.
Hi Brian...Is the MCI Center where the Capitals and the Wizards play? Or are they at other facilities?
@@williamhild1793 Yeah. They share a building. It was called Verizon Center, now it's called Capital One Arena.
Thanks, Brian!
That’s awesome. How did the hogan/sting finish play in the audience? It was so strange on TV.
@@QuietmindYoga The crowd loved it. Especially when all the wrestlers came down to the ring. It made the local news on WRC-NBC
Wow a 3hr Bischoff show. I enjoy this podcast but i absolutely cannot stand when Eric gets asked a question, then he takes a deep breath through his teeth and pauses for 3 or 4 seconds to formulate an answer that doesn't sound like complete BS.
Thank you lol. I'm so glad someone else noticed that insufferable breathing and lip smacking
That lack of a tan doesn't work for me brother.
Starrcade 1997 is still fucking amazing, the best thing about WCW was the unpredictability and the star power it was just simply magnificent
Conrad got me by the balls at the end.
The real angry fan manifested.
Cheers to you both.
This PPV was OK & I was pissed that we didn't get to see Nash vs. Giant until a month later & also was pissed because Nash never wanted to put the Giant over
3:06:58: The way Conrad realizes just instantly goes "He kinda has a point" right here is hilarious.
Bischoff lies like a fucking rug. A Hogan Yes Man. Hogan got what he wanted in the end. Conrad ate Bischoff's ass up at the end of this. Total Magic Conrad. Love ur passion.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 “Lies like a fucking rug”
This narrative that Sting showed up to Starrcade in poor shape seems like nonsense to me. What exactly is it based on? His gear covering more of his body? He wore that type of singlet for months before this as part of the new look for his "silent warrior/Crow" gimmick. He wasn't as tan as Hogan? Nobody on Earth has ever been as tan as Hogan. Sting's Emo character should be pale anyway. My point is that he performed physically just fine, and his "being out of shape" is the flimsiest excuse in the world for Hogan to not put him over cleanly when it was absolutely the time to do business.
I just saw some google photos and there really looked nothing wrong with his complexion. Did he need to be super brown and almost red? Geez.
burntvirtue he looked good to me. He was lean. His arms were all you could see. They were in good shape. And his skin tone fit what he was doing at the time. I call bullshit on the excuse. I think it was a cop out that Hogan wanted to use to hold on to the top spot. I’ve heard this from both Hogan & Bischoff. But Sting, who is very open and honest about his personal life and career, doesn’t say anything like this. He won’t say his opinions on what happened in the finish or why. But what little information he does give, he says that Hogan and Bischoff were constantly back and forth consulting and debating in private what was going to happen. And Sting just had to sit there and wait for them to decide. He just wanted them to tell him if he was taking the title or not. They jerked him around. I feel like this, like everything else, came down to ego for Hogan.
Smith HR Stings the guy everyone wants as a main event star as a promoter. A guy who gets ITS A FUCKING WORK. God, stupid ass Hogan. Just drop the belt clean. It’s. Not. REAL.
Of course there are times like this where it would be better if Sting fought a bit more, cause anyone who isn’t delusional knows the only finish that made sense was Hogan submitting in the middle of the ring, 100% cleanly, after getting destroyed for 10 minutes.
It’s reads to me as though it’s not really about this match but the concerns they had about Sting being able to be the main face of the company as champion. I think the message, they made Sting look weaker or not as strong so as to be able to take the belt off him.
Until this episode, I hated Conrad and loved Bischoff. The analysis of the main event created a Bret/Austin double turn for me.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Bischoff loses credibility here regarding the Hogan v Sting finish.
1. If Sting showed up in less than adequate condition, the plan would pivot to having him lose and not become champion. Changing the plan from a clean finish with Sting on top to a screw job finish where Sting still ends the night on top doesn't make any sense in this context.
2. Why would there even be a referee lottery if the plan from the beginning was a clean finish? If the original concept was for Sting to win it outright, the official would play no role. Clearly WCW always intended use a screw job finish or they wouldn't have had a referee lottery that a heel ref won.
3. It's also obvious the finish was planned to utilize Bret Hart as an official and try to get him involved in the main event.
I think it's fair to say that the plan from the start was a stupid, convoluted screwball ending where Bret saves the day and Sting walks out as champion. Sting's condition was not a factor in this clearly pre-planned finish. Unfortunately, WCW, in true WCW fashion outsmarted themselves and fucked up an already poorly booked match exacerbating the problem. They destroyed a year of build up and let WWF back into the race during the ensuing fallout.
Bischoff claiming that this finish was planned the day of the event is nothing short of a lie.
Hell why not have Bret ref the ENTIRE match? Woulda worked much better than the shit they did here.
"and let WWF back into the race" ... the messed up finish hurt WCW but it was no condition for the WWF to get back into the race - their new Attitude storylines (regardles of what I think of them) would have drawn even if WCW had made no mistakes.
st r True. Once WWF survived 96-97, WCW never had a chance of actually permanently winning the MNW and certainly no chance of ending the WWF. The absolute best they could hope for was a stalemate by the time WM 14 came around.
I never saw anything bad with finish hes right i started hearing it yrs later. But if anything hogan dropping title to luger weeks before took away from hogan vs sting match.
Bullshit Eric. Sting looked fine. He was lean. His arms were huge. His skin tone was perfectly fine for his character. And he could go. How much time did these people have to notice that he was pale and out of shape? They never saw him until time for Starrcade, and then were like “oh, we better rethink this”? Give me a break. It’s a cop out. Hogan and Bischoff tell this side of things. Sting, who actually has a track record of honesty and transparency, especially regarding his life choices, doesn’t mention this. He talks about all the closed door meetings Hogan & Bischoff had without him about the match. Constant back and forth about whether or not to let Hogan drop the strap. But never giving Sting an answer. As far as the match and the finish, Sting refuses to point fingers or speculate on what went down. What was intentional and what was accidental. He only says Hogan’s knees were bad. His own personal life was a mess. And it just didn’t turn out like they’d hoped. It wasn’t Sting’s body that was the problem. Was he maybe a little checked out? Sure. But say that. Stop making excuses to cover that this was really about Hogan’s ego and giving up the top spot.
One thing I’ll say for Eric is he has made me appreciate Dean Malenko a lot more as a character, previously I bought into the narrative that Dean was a great technician with zero charisma but now I watch for the subtleties in his performances.
I think Sting lost interest when Lex Luger beat Hogan months prior when it should of waited for Sting to beat hogan
Yeah I saw that Kevin Nash shoot as well.
Where can i find the video of Nash saying this?
The problem Conrad raises at the end (but then strangely lets go) is the question: Which one is it? Why was the outcome changed from a clean Sting victory to a screwy finish (which Nick Patrick then botched)? Was it because Sting lacked his tan or was it to give Bret Hart an opening? Don't pretend like the two just coincidentally arrived at the same time to result in this finish. So which one is it, Eric?!
The whole NwO Nitro was an interesting concept that turned into a Love Letter too Hogan.
The funny thing is the Starrcade 97 ending is what could have happened at WrestleMania 14 had Michaels not lost to Austin
Michaels had 2 herniated discs and a compressed disc going into that match. On top of that he hit a turnbuckle wrong and totally blew his back out. Not even the selfish 90s Shawn Michaels would’ve been able to screw Austin out of a win that night.
@@FadeIn2Obscurity if some stories from the Undertaker and Bruce Prichard are to be believed, it sounds like he kinda was. You never know what's what, but the Undertaker telling Shawn to do the job or else, idk.
@@BrandanTheBroker Oh no doubt if Michaels hadn’t jobbed, every disc would’ve been herniated at best before he left the Fleet Center
@@FadeIn2Obscurity idk why that made me laugh so hard 🤣
LOL, I will credit Conrad this, he wouldn't back down with Bischoff here.
Conrad screaming, "You f*cked the finish over a tan," is the funniest thing I've ever heard.
NWO should had ended at starrcade with Hogan being in the middle of the ring and all the members of the NWO coming in and tossing their nwo shirts at Hogan's motionless body.
I’ve said the same thing. Make it look like WCW united and NWO was out. Then maybe NWO could make a comeback later
Are you friggin nuts end it that quickly no way all the great stuff that happened the next year Nwo is 4 Life your stupid Hogan won cleanly Sting suxs he lost he's a typical Babyface idiot Nwo 4life
I know it's a work, but I love how triggered Conrad got over the finish to Hogan vs Sting
Sting's entrance from the rafters wouldn't make sense, he was reppin' WCW to get that title off the GOAT
Eric said "Was Bret for WCW or was Bret for the NWO? The storyline played out perfectly" in the Bischoff/Zybysko match. I couldn't disagree more! I thought the Bret ref stuff came off so awkward in that match. It was a terrible way to use Bret.
On the finish to Sting/Hogan I can't even take Bischoff seriously. If Sting was in such bad shape why put the Title on him at all? Then he says well we stripped him LMAO yes and then gave him the Title AGAIN!!! To say it was a miscommunication is insane. Nobody after 18 months thought to clarify the finish with Patrick, Hogan, Sting? Give me a break! Not hard to see why Eric oversaw a company that booked Starrcade '97 + '98 and don't forget the Finger Poke. I can't believe he tried to defend the finish to Sting/Hogan lol just terrible!
Ok so what does Sting not being tan or super buff (ridiculous), btw he came across just fine on TV, have to do with the finish of the match?
Go watch the Sting documentary on WWE Network. Eric gives a different account of what happened and so does Sting. It's not completely different but it's enough so that you will be able to see the truth. Hogan just did not want to lose clean.
Love how the marks are going to side with sting over hogan. Eric mentions it several times: sting was going through stuff and I’m not going to elaborate. We all know Sting had drug and alcohol issues at this time. Eric is covering for him - but Conrad and the Smarks want to go after him. Conrad probably perceives the truth, and wants Eric to shovel the dirt - which is pretty slimy truth be told.
Became a fan of both of you today
Can someone please explain something to me. OK, Sting's head wasn't in the right place. He was out of it or whatever. So...then why are you screwing the finish to have Sting leave with the belt? Not to mention, you simply put the belt back on Sting at SuperBrawl anyway. What was different about Sting at that point?
Exactly
Comrad going in on one made me laugh out loud 🤣
Conrad "did you instruct nick to do a fast count"
Eric "NO...Maybe"
Cocaine is a hell of a drug
Seems the downfall of WCW was because of 'miscommunication'
The only matches on this show that were booked correctly were DDP-Hennig (although it would have been *so* much better if it could have been Flair) and, believe it or not, Zbyszko-Bischoff.
Great informative podcast... but I could do w.o the Dave Meltzer references.
MuzikAddickt it’s the worst. “Meltzer would report” fat Conrad the guy was wrong on everything he reported according to your podcast, why does he still talk about this loser....
HOLY SHIT. Was this a AMAZING EPISODE!!
He called Meltzer “Davey” lmfao!
The ending to the main event of Starrcade 1997 was a huge middle finger to the face of the fans. It totally fucked up everything. It made no sense. Sting should have gone over cleanly. His momentum was ruined. Nobody could suggest with a straight face that the finish was adequate.
@1:06:37 i remember in the late 90s espn (subsidiary of abc/disney) began running stories about the negative side of the wrestling industry (steroids, poor health, etc) since wrestling, both wwf & wcw became so popular, it was threatening monday night football's ratings.
Why did Sting need a tan?? He was technically a lost soul. So basically have Hogan beat up Sting for 90% match and him losing clean was the best you could do?? Bret didnt even look good in this cause he hit a ref that did nothing wrong lol. This looks like Hogan did something on the fly here
He was like this brooding loner wearing that Crow face paint. Why did he need to look like beach tan or coppertone?
9:43 eric does coke
I've been waiting for this one