Already got a couple people asking me this so: The game at 7:49 is Assault Spy. It's on Steam Early Access and it's 15 bucks. If you got money to burn, there are worse ways to set it on fire and you'll def have some fun with it. However it is currently in a pretty rough state and, as such, my recommendation is to wishlist it and grab it in a few months if it's cleaned itself up.
Well, from were I came, the Hack'n slash term is used exclusively to refer to games like DMC/Nier/MGR Never to games like musou, action shooters, etc etc So, to me, makes a lot of sense just call them hack'n slash hahahaha
Remember kids, genre’s not a matter of ontology. Its about setting expectation! There’s a whole bunch of different things that action in genre can accomplish! Character action’s depth emphasis provides satisfaction, style, and mastery. Something simpler can provide simpler pleasures. Souls’ emphasis on its weight and slower speed is a powerful tone setter. Even adjacent works like Resident Evil 4 utilize horror to turn action into a tense thriller! It’s not about what is a thing, its what can a thing do and having the lens to see it.
Man this is awesome seeing the gamingbrit starting the discussion about character action games and seeing 2 other great youtubers versed in this genre respond. Very fun to watch. By the way codex entry, you're criminally undersubbed, just like foxcade. I hope things turn around soon!
Lol, this might be the first time I've been subbed to each YTer in a video response chain like this. Wow, remember when TH-cam had actual "video responses"?
A great example of definition by community inclusion is the Swedish "heavy metal" band Ghost. Their music is revered as some of the best metal music this decade, but really its just catchy pop-rock music dressed up in black metal paint. It is welcomed as "metal" by many (but not all) for its ethos and aesthetic, much in the same way many fans of character action games accept Vanquish despite it being ostensibly a shooter.
Its not an unfavorable comparison. Ghost is a great band, and Vanquish is a great game. Which part of either is the "heart" or the "paint" really matters little, all that matters is the community's appreciation of the end result.
Not bad, I'd thought it would take you longer to post this after watching Foxcade's video. I like your appreciation of how all types of media create subcultures and how the character action genre is not so much about a videogame genre but rather the subculture it creates around it. The way you explained it in this video is spot on with the cartoon vs. anime thing.
Dude, stop being so awesome, and making such rad vids. Watching just one of your vids makes me go into your back catalog, next thing I know, two hours have passed, and I'm like "OH FUCK!!" No, no.. don't listen to me. NEVER NOT BE AWESOME. Love your channel. LOVED your quick "blink and you'll miss him" cameo on foxcade the other day.😎
5:03 Instant like just for the use of the Team Impala track alone! Also, thanks for not starting a war with Charlie, even if you don't agree with him. This discussion about genres is complicated enough, so thanks for not putting oil on fire. Great vid anyway!
So to me I think all 3 people have made valid points on the subject. There’s definitely a reason to specify these specific traits when talking about these games but at the same time it does get a little muddled when you throw games like nier or even the yakuza games in. They all fall under the action game umbrella, but people should be allowed to discuss the differences and nuances of not only individual games but groups of games too. Anyhow big fan of codex, fox, and Brit, see you all next video.
Spoiler for those few sad people that have not watched Gravity Falls yet (and I say sad not to judge, but only because Gravity Falls will bring you so much more joy you cannot imagine). I could not believe my eyes that they managed to pull out, out of all things, a Berserk climax. So many both blatant and subtle callbacks all fitting perfectly to a story so drastically tonally different. Just watch Gravity Falls
+Scott Elout Which is exactly the point made because the culture surrounding the creation and consumption of anime is one very different to western cartoons.
My issue with your conclusion is I don't "want more DMC more than more Dynasty Warriors", I would want Dynasty Warriors to have better combat. Games like DMC and Bayo prove all action games deserve a higher standard. Separating good combat into its own subgenre narrows the view of what good combat should be an element of, which is “any and all action games”. The comparison to anime and cartoons doesn’t seem appropriate either, since animation is an entire medium for which there’s objectively distinct styles of production between cartoons and anime. “Character action” feels like separating HxH from DBZ because HxH has a more complex power system. Although a charitable comparison is separating JJK and ATLA from Parasyte and Castlevania as “battle shonen” and “action thrillers”, two distinct subgenres of action oriented animation. But I absolutely can not see the original Nier and Automata as being anywhere near that distinct. They’re both RPGs with a nearly identical emphasis on action combat. I think you and Foxcade contradicting each other despite being “on the same side” is very indicative of how stupid this label is! He lists gameplay elements that make a “character action game”, while you say it all depends on the culture and community. He says DMC2 is a bad character action game, while this video says it wouldn’t be one at all since it doesn’t have good combat. And if the culture and community does decide the labels, then wouldn't these just be action games since that's how the actual high level action game community refers to them? 👻
This is a really good video and highlights what I love about these that I didn't realize, as well as how to approach potentially makiong my own games in this style, you earned a sub with notifications active!
That would be Capcom. It was developed by the same team that also made Viewtiful Joe and Okami to name afew, who've now become Platinum Games. That being said, I think its unlikely to have a re-release or remaster anytime soon, if at all. If you wanna play God Hand, either track down a copy on the PS2 or go the emulation route.
Look if “Metroidvania” is enough of a distinction from regular action platformers to necessitate a sub genre, then character action games or “Devilnetta” games do also.
Nier Automata is definitely a character action game. The depth of 9S combos when he only has 1 attack button is absolutely mind blowing. This video is from 5 years ago. If you look at combo videos of Automata now in 2023, it looks as flashy as DMC and Bayonetta.
You almost got me with this one and I did have to go back to my source to make sure, but that painting isn't a Pollock. www.saatchiart.com/art/Painting-No-4-2017-Abstract-Action-Drip-Painting-in-Pollock-Style-Oil-on-Canvas/1009732/3734586/view
Came from Foxcade's video and he just says what to expect of the genre without getting to the real point: Why making a video defining the genre's characteristics or a video about how culture influences the genre, if the whole need for those issue is exactly the name of the genre itself? It's a stupid, generic and reductive name, even more than just calling them Action games. If the point of the genre is indicating what to expect from it, why the hell give the genre a name that explains nothing?
This reminds me of the fighting game genere, and how there are various different versions of a fighting game. You got 2D fighters, 3D fighters, arena fighters, anime fighters, tag fighters, etc... (or I just can’t think of any more)
The last sentence would have been enough to sell the point to everybody...and it felt it needed some kind of mike drop! This was definitely a suitable moment for it!
I might be the exception then but I just finished Bayonetta for the first time yesterday and I must say that while the gameplay is good what really got me into it was the story and presentation in general of the game, it's quite the unique experience. Also I loved the constant and unapologetic references to older SEGA titles, every time I heard the game sneaking Outrun music in the background I was filled with joy.
Ca games need 1 of 3 things Extensions to combat Lead-ins to combat Cancels to combat Any of these will lend directly to the freeform combat that is character action.
I'll still stick with Spectacle Fighter because these games literally are that and it sounds the coolest. Which is what this whole crazy party is all about.
For the people that like hack & slash games, here are some from 2020 and beyond: Soulstice Valkyrie Elysium Wanted: Dead Etenights Stella Blade Project DT Project M Lost Soul Aside Phantom Hellcat Arise of Awakener Granblue Fantasy Relink Yasuke A Lost Descendent Shred & Tear: Explosive Kajun Shouts out to H&S games, they are making a comeback.
@@ahmedammar4856 if I'm not mistaken Etenights, Yasuke A Lost Descendant and Shred & Tear are indie H&S games. Also Astor: blade of monolith and Mighteya are also.
Interesting. I'm not sure the name "character action game" works as a genre name, simply because it doesn't have any stickiness, but the basis of the genre does make sense. It also implies that, in theory, one could make an excellent game in this genre by stripping out nearly everything except the combat mechanics and level design, similar to how games in the Street Fighter genre almost never trend in their plot.
best way to explain this whole genre thing is to compare it to metal. is it fine to call black metal, prog metal, death metal and such as just 'metal' yes, yes it is, same thing with calling these games 'action games' the problem that arises though is that the whole point of genre/sub genres is to help people know what the thing is they are looking at or looking for. to call 'heavy metal' as 'it's just metal with really good aggression' or some shit is practically useless because that could mean that ANYTHING. so to say ''they're just action game with really good combat'' could literally mean call of duty, doom or warhammer 40k space marine instead of devil may cry or ninja gaiden because ''action games'' are just that broad in scope. that's why the Englishman's 2 videos aren't even just mediocre, they are probably the worst content he has uploaded onto his channel and i can't take them seriously. so here's my take on it, you have action games that cover a large group of other genres like fps, third person shooters and hack & slash/beat em ups. those genres also splinter off into several sub genres like with an fps will have arena shooters, retro shooters and war sims. what a sub genre does is highlight and define the particular focus of that piece of entertainment so say arma is a sim because it's focused on simulating real world combat as much as it can, an arena shooter is based more on putting players in an ''arena'' with which has weapons, armour, boots and such spread out the map. with third person shooters, besides simulators and cover based shooters, isn't quite defined by styles or mechanics like an fps but by setting like a sci fi third person shooter and so on and so forth. thing is though hack&slash/beat em ups only really change dependant on the culture of where it came from. western style combat generally wants to be grounded with slower and weighty movements and focuses on combat that serves utility over player expression, Japanese style hack&slash/beat em ups instead is very fast and is usually based on anime and focuses on combat that serves player expression over utility. considering there was a time when japan made a lot of rpgs that followed a specific formula and because of that we called them ''jrpgs'' is it really strange to do something similar with hack&slash/beat em ups?
Thank you. That TGBS video is anti-intellectual cancer, and his zombie followers who mindlessly parrot everything he says and litter the comments section of users like Foxcade are stage-4 cancer. His arguments to have character-driven action games simply be called action games with really good combat systems is goddamn reductionist and overly vague and broad, for the same reasons as those metal music genre examples you mention. To give another example, Resident Evil 4 is an action game with really good combat. So is Vanquish. But they approach combat radically differently. It would also be as if someone said that all RPGs should be called "just RPGs". That would not be possible, because not only are Japanese RPGs and Western RPGs two different sub-genre approaches to the RPG genre, but within each of these sub-genres there are sub-sub-genres, such as tactical RPGs and action RPGs. And even within the sub-sub-genres alone, there are different types. Diablo 2, Dark Souls and Ys: The Oath in Felghana are all action RPGs. However, these three action RPGs games are completely different approaches to the action RPG and cannot be reduced to just action RPGs.
decided to pick up dmc4 during the steam sale on a whim, now im watching a video response to a video response to a video i watched last week. what have i gotten myself into
I'm curious what you'd say of something like Tales or Kingdom Hearts 2. Unlike Automata, which plays essentially like a character-action game but with added RPG elements, both Tales and KH play decidedly differently. Yet both have still generated communities around crafting combo videos and boss-rushes that push them to their limits. In spite of this community, on a personal level, I would have a hard time describing either franchise with the label 'character action'.
Assault Spy. It's on Steam Early Access and it's 15 bucks. If you got money to burn, there are worse ways to set it on fire and you'll def have some fun with it. However it is currently in a pretty rough state and, as such, my recommendation is to wishlist it and grab it in a few months if it's cleaned itself up. Also, glad you're liking it!
i agree, too. From what we have seen, hopefully Kingdom Hearts 3 follows up on it after what I see as dissapoitingly downscaled versions of 1 and 2 with the handheld games.
Some call Monster Hunter and Dark Souls JRPGs. Others call PREY and Deus Ex FPSs. And some games are so unique and blend multiple genres making them hard to put in a category, like NieR:Automata. Video game genre naming is a total mess. I love Extra Credit's take on the matter: "We should stop naming game genres by mechanics and aethetics but rather by the underlying reasons we play the game" That's the method I try to use to categorise games because that's the one that makes the most sense to me as a game designer. Mark Brown's video "Do we need a Souls genre ?" is also great when it comes to that topic. EDIT: If someone asked me what kind of game is NieR:Automata, telling them it's a Hack'n'Slash/A-RPG doesn't give any information about the type of experience you get out of this game. If I give you the same answer for Bayonetta or DMC though, now your expectations are set in the right way. Some games play with their genre to make a statement, like Spec OPS or DDLC, those are games that exist as direct responses to the games that came before them in their genres. Gaming is about the experience, not the game.
I want to watch your video but I sincerely can't find a link to the video you suggested we watch first. "Foxhades video" ?? I tried searching for phonetic variations and still couldn't get it. I think it would be convenient for your viewers if you linked it somewhere, like in the description.
my love for action rpgs like tales, nier, kingdom hearts and ys might be whyy i can easily get into chracter action games. they pretty much overlap. i don't come to chracter action games foor the storyy i come for the combat even if dante is enteratining.
Have you thought about doing a video on God of War (2018) and why you dreaded playing it? Like it, not like it? I like the GoW games but don't love them.
Nier is a JRPG with character action elements. I think the lack of ranking system makes it less like traditional character action games. JRPGs focus more on the narrative. In Bayonetta I think about how I'm going to get my next platinum, not what's happening in the plot. Nier does have that customization with your play style and combat, but I wouldn't call it character action. It's a JRPG with character action elements
Bayonetta has my favorite ever video game story along with Bloodborne. Yes, you have to think, and won't understand all of the details after a single play through, but it's a game designed with replayability in mind so to me, the fact that I can continue to get value out of the story after the first playthrough is exactly what a highly replayable genre such as this needs. Do the leg work and you will discover a story and a world with an attention to detail not found even in games that supposedly take storytelling seriously, like The Last of Us and God of War. It is a story that has some of the most profound ideas I have come across in my entire life, in and outside of media. I plan to start my own TH-cam channel and am currently writing my first video, which is about Bayonetta and its story because I see it dismissed so often, as if it's a FACT that it makes no sense and is "confused" when nah, that's just not true. Anyways, I agree with everything else you said. Yes, Character Action is a genre, and your point about cartoons and guitar music was brilliant.
Well, I guess it depends on what communities you hang out in. Most people want simple stories and easy gameplay, basically anything that would require you to think is a big no-no. It's depressing to see. This is why The Evil With 2 sucks. The original had an amazing story that was very complex and also had that same level of detail that games like Bloodborne and Bayonetta have, but a ton of people complained about it so they dumbed down the sequel and now even the people who complained about the original are saying "wait, I feel like we've lost something here"... I guess it depends on how you play games. Personally, when I'm gaming, I absolutely do not want to relax. It's an interactive medium and I want to be involved, engaged and immersed, you know? But a lot of people do play to relax. I can't understand that, and think movies are better suited to relaxation. So when a game comes a long that rewards you for paying attention and, basically, not relaxing, you get tons of complaints. It's so depressing to see. I think everything I've just said is only a part of the truth and not the whole truth. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers. This is just what I have observed over the past few years. From another perspective, maybe it's also that so few games have this kind of detail, so when a game comes along that does have this kind of detail, people just don't see it because they're not expecting it, and therefore aren't looking out for it. Again, I think this is part of the truth. It's a shame. All we can do is talk about these things and hope that sharing this information will raise awareness and take the gaming community as a whole to the next level.
+J Riibz Model Prime Where's your evidence for that? By the way, scores don't count. A lot of people love DMC 4. And not everyone likes deep games. He's right. Besides, I thought you hated these kind of games, so why do you care?
What about Panty & Stocking, an anime that looks exactly like a western cartoon? Or alternatively, The Last Airbender which looks like anime but is a western cartoon?
I just call them 3D Melee Action Games, but it rolls off the tongue about as well as a long summary of the genre, so I'm still the only one calling them that... although now that I think about it, 3D Melee Action Traversal Games would work best as it excludes fighting games. Yeah, people will totally catch on to this,
I'm confused about your channel? You've been on TH-cam since 2016 but you don't have that many videos and despite how much you love devil may cry there are no video guides on any of the games?
In Japan, the distinction isn’t really made between “cartoons” and “anime”. To a Japanese person, both Spongebob and Yugioh are both anime. If they wanna be specific they just say (country name)’s anime.
artboy598 But I like having a word to describe that I like Yu-Gi-Oh like series more than Spongebob like. Avatar is an anime, according to my linguistic needs.
Regarding Nier:Automata (and any game actually), I'd say that community isn't the only judge, but also its creators. More specifically, their intent behind the game's creation is what matters. Nier, for instance, has most of the staples of a spectacle fighter (I prefer this term to character-action, but whatever) but the flashy, fast-paced, deep combat system doesn't seem like the main reason why this game was created. It's not the thing that's supposed to motivate you to play it and more of a way not to get bored during its 70+ hours of playtime. The main focus of that game was obviously its story and that's why I'd classify it as an RPG. Now, sure, some people can and probably do enjoy this game solely for the combat system and how to master it, but since that's not where most of the focus went for the devs, I'd say most people won't fall into that category. And since genres are mostly useful to describe an artform to someone unfamiliar with it, I'd say it's important that it conveys what most people will see in it. As an example, I've got a group of friends who've been playing World of Warcraft for a long time. When playing together, they don't do quests, dungeons or PvP, they mostly just wander the world on their mounts while talking to each other. Still, if someone unfamiliar with WoW asked me what it is, I wouldn't describe it as a social platform even though some use it as such and the devs made sure it could also serve this purpose. That being said, games aren't restricted to having only one genre and the spectacle-fighter tag isn't inappropriate for Nier:Automata, but if I had to describe it, I would say it's an RPG first and a character-action second.
I think creator intent is important, but not really defining of a work, especially once a culture gets their hands on it. I mean, no amount of Masahiro Sakurai insisting that Smash isn't a fighting game has stopped the Melee scene from growing. If culture, or in this case a subculture, decides that a thing falls under a certain category, there's not much the creator can really do to stop it. I really wanna respond to your second point, but my response would essentially be a script for an upcoming video so I guess I just have to say 'Keep an eye out of a video about the smash scene soonish'.
I was actually thinking about mentioning Smash in my comment and am glad you plan to make an other video about it. This comment might be made obsolete by it, but allow me to respond anyway. Competitive Melee has indeed a dedicated fanbase that keeps the game alive to this day, but if you take the Smash series as a whole, I doubt most people see them as truly competitive games since that's not what they look like nor how they are marketed. Most of the audience doesn't come to these games for the competitive aspect but for their fun, accessible, colourful style. In fact, I'd wager that even amongst the most competitive players (especially the first generation) first bought the game simply to have fun with their friends and only later became infatuated with its mechanics enough to try and master them past what was thought to be their maximum potential. Basically, the competitive aspect isn't what most people seek in Smash and if I had to show what the game is to a complete novice, I probably wouldn't show them a high-level match. And it's not that the games couldn't focus on that element and be successful (they already are a great E-Sport without even trying) but what most people will seek in a game is what the devs will insist is important. In Smash's case, it's the fun element, not the technical one, even though both are present.
A weird example is RWBY by Rooster Teeth The creator, Monty Oum (god rest his soul) intended it to be anime The RWBY community insists it is anime The Anime community insists that it isn't Japan imported it to their country as "The first anime to be imported into japan" Japan then proceeded to give it their own dub, release a manga and included it in BlazBlue CrossTag, a part of the "anime fighting game" sub-genre.
Exactly my point of view. I won't go as far as to tell people that there is a wrong way to *enjoy* a video game, but there is definitely a wrong way to *play* a video game (play doesn't equate enjoyment) You can have fun playing a game wrong, that has nothing to do with your enjoyment in the end, it has all to do with the devs intents for the game. You can have fun eating soup with a knife, but a spoon will always be the better tool even if the one having fun with his knife finds it boring, because that's irrelevant. That's a never-ending debate that has always existed in artistic fields with no clear cut: does the art belong to the audience or the artist ?
Codex Entry If you are indeed making a ssb video in the same vein as this one, may I suggest a video _"The disconnect between Smash Bros and the FGC"_ by one *MacSplicer* ? Very informative video imho and worth a watch.
God of War 4 is literally being forced to play the same level 20 times in a row. Enemy and actual level variety (outside of visuals) is sorely lacking.
Cartoons and anime don't even have cultures. Subgenres within them have cultures, no? I like some anime, but wouldn't have much to talk about with most "anime fans." Death Note isn't anime, it's battle of wits supernatural psychological thriller. Initial D isn't anime, it's a psychological semi realistic action racing thriller.
With all due respect, Death Note and Initial D are both two of the Most Anime Anime to Have Ever Animed. They are two of the most deeply famous and influential show there are in anime circles. They are ALSO both thrillers, yes, but that does suddenly make them stop being anime just because of their subgenre of choice.
You are right, culture defines a genre but a game/media shouldn't just stick with just one genre. Just like anime and cartoon, they're different genre but there are many genres within anime and cartoon. But I also believe an individual can define a genre by himself. If nobody doesn't want to define what Nier Automata genre is, I'll tell you by my perspective. It is character action, hack n slash, jrpg, open world, with shoot 'em up and shooter elements genre. Yoko Taro, the one who created Nier Automata because he doesn't like to confine a game to just one genre. He wanted to say fuck genre. By the way, many who likes character action/ hack n slash dislike God of War 2018 because they thought it is in the same genre as the older games but God of War 2018 is an action adventure genre, not character action/ hack n slash. It makes sense you don't like that game.
Already got a couple people asking me this so:
The game at 7:49 is Assault Spy. It's on Steam Early Access and it's 15 bucks. If you got money to burn, there are worse ways to set it on fire and you'll def have some fun with it. However it is currently in a pretty rough state and, as such, my recommendation is to wishlist it and grab it in a few months if it's cleaned itself up.
It gets a bit of leeway for being in Early Access, and the game is constantly getting new content, so there's that.
That's a a weird Persona 3 spin off
Have you tried Nelo?
Nah, not yet. Too many games to go through, ya know?
Codex Entry Yep, looking at my Steam library right now. I dont even remember buying half of them!
GamingBrit, Foxcade, Codex Entry.
Who's next Turbo Button?
Aya ya he’s been there. I love all of these channels
I hope so, it’ll be the best crossover.
Maybe vash or hyperbit?
Dan Cornish them too.
Atrophy of soul?
I dunno, I think they should just be called Hack and Slash, that's what they are!
expect to hear from my lawyers.
Well, from were I came, the Hack'n slash term is used exclusively to refer to games like DMC/Nier/MGR
Never to games like musou, action shooters, etc etc
So, to me, makes a lot of sense just call them hack'n slash hahahaha
I dunno- I'd classify the Musou games as Hack and Slash, myself... Perhaps they could be considered subgenres of Hack and Slash?
but then you will have people calling dark souls style combat hack n slash, when its core mechanics are completely different, and much slower paced.
Slashers
Remember kids, genre’s not a matter of ontology. Its about setting expectation! There’s a whole bunch of different things that action in genre can accomplish! Character action’s depth emphasis provides satisfaction, style, and mastery. Something simpler can provide simpler pleasures. Souls’ emphasis on its weight and slower speed is a powerful tone setter. Even adjacent works like Resident Evil 4 utilize horror to turn action into a tense thriller! It’s not about what is a thing, its what can a thing do and having the lens to see it.
Man this is awesome seeing the gamingbrit starting the discussion about character action games and seeing 2 other great youtubers versed in this genre respond. Very fun to watch.
By the way codex entry, you're criminally undersubbed, just like foxcade. I hope things turn around soon!
Lol, this might be the first time I've been subbed to each YTer in a video response chain like this. Wow, remember when TH-cam had actual "video responses"?
Hayden Huffines I remember. Been on this cesspool since 2007
2008 was a hell of a time to be alive
So we got GamingBrit, Foxcade and now Codex Entry.
Who else wants to throw their hat in the ring!
H Dracon Turbo Button hopefully, I don’t know if he’d bother but I’d be cool.
A great example of definition by community inclusion is the Swedish "heavy metal" band Ghost. Their music is revered as some of the best metal music this decade, but really its just catchy pop-rock music dressed up in black metal paint. It is welcomed as "metal" by many (but not all) for its ethos and aesthetic, much in the same way many fans of character action games accept Vanquish despite it being ostensibly a shooter.
This is a fantastic example and I wish I'd thought of it. Good comment.
But that's opposite. Vanquish may be a shooter on the surface, but it clearly character action in the heart.
I believe that is what this person is saying.
Codex Entry comparing Vanquish to catchy pop-rock music dressed in the black metal paint? Right...
Its not an unfavorable comparison. Ghost is a great band, and Vanquish is a great game. Which part of either is the "heart" or the "paint" really matters little, all that matters is the community's appreciation of the end result.
"It's just action game with really good combat".
Not bad, I'd thought it would take you longer to post this after watching Foxcade's video. I like your appreciation of how all types of media create subcultures and how the character action genre is not so much about a videogame genre but rather the subculture it creates around it. The way you explained it in this video is spot on with the cartoon vs. anime thing.
good freakin damn are u underrated...i hope this channel grows far bigger this year.
Dude, stop being so awesome, and making such rad vids. Watching just one of your vids makes me go into your back catalog, next thing I know, two hours have passed, and I'm like "OH FUCK!!" No, no.. don't listen to me. NEVER NOT BE AWESOME.
Love your channel. LOVED your quick "blink and you'll miss him" cameo on foxcade the other day.😎
5:03 Instant like just for the use of the Team Impala track alone!
Also, thanks for not starting a war with Charlie, even if you don't agree with him. This discussion about genres is complicated enough, so thanks for not putting oil on fire. Great vid anyway!
Hopefully one day the rest of YT will realize that you can disagree with someone without going for the throat.
Yeah but "youtube drama" man... It's so appealing for the communities somehow
I wonder how TGB feels with so many well thought out responses to his rant being uploaded
Killer vid. Love how you set this up with the differences between anime & 'toons. Very strong writing!
love the idea you brought forth!
honestly this discussion has been fun so far
So to me I think all 3 people have made valid points on the subject. There’s definitely a reason to specify these specific traits when talking about these games but at the same time it does get a little muddled when you throw games like nier or even the yakuza games in. They all fall under the action game umbrella, but people should be allowed to discuss the differences and nuances of not only individual games but groups of games too. Anyhow big fan of codex, fox, and Brit, see you all next video.
Spoiler for those few sad people that have not watched Gravity Falls yet (and I say sad not to judge, but only because Gravity Falls will bring you so much more joy you cannot imagine).
I could not believe my eyes that they managed to pull out, out of all things, a Berserk climax. So many both blatant and subtle callbacks all fitting perfectly to a story so drastically tonally different.
Just watch Gravity Falls
i never thought i’d hear aesop rock in the background of a video game discussion video and i am HERE for it (great vid btw)
Your comparison of anime and cartoons as a way of emphasizing why we should separate character action and action was top quality =D
It becomes a bit weak though when you consider that anime are just Japanese cartoons.
+Scott Elout Which is exactly the point made because the culture surrounding the creation and consumption of anime is one very different to western cartoons.
+NuclearUnicorn7 Can't argue with that. Still, I think there's a bit more to it when it comes to genre.
My issue with your conclusion is I don't "want more DMC more than more Dynasty Warriors", I would want Dynasty Warriors to have better combat. Games like DMC and Bayo prove all action games deserve a higher standard. Separating good combat into its own subgenre narrows the view of what good combat should be an element of, which is “any and all action games”.
The comparison to anime and cartoons doesn’t seem appropriate either, since animation is an entire medium for which there’s objectively distinct styles of production between cartoons and anime. “Character action” feels like separating HxH from DBZ because HxH has a more complex power system. Although a charitable comparison is separating JJK and ATLA from Parasyte and Castlevania as “battle shonen” and “action thrillers”, two distinct subgenres of action oriented animation. But I absolutely can not see the original Nier and Automata as being anywhere near that distinct. They’re both RPGs with a nearly identical emphasis on action combat.
I think you and Foxcade contradicting each other despite being “on the same side” is very indicative of how stupid this label is! He lists gameplay elements that make a “character action game”, while you say it all depends on the culture and community. He says DMC2 is a bad character action game, while this video says it wouldn’t be one at all since it doesn’t have good combat.
And if the culture and community does decide the labels, then wouldn't these just be action games since that's how the actual high level action game community refers to them? 👻
Back where I'm from, we call 'em 'Slasher Games'.
GamingBrit really got everyone debating Character Action Games.... Who's next?
This is a really good video and highlights what I love about these that I didn't realize, as well as how to approach potentially makiong my own games in this style, you earned a sub with notifications active!
No matter what, NieR: Automata is still one of my favorite game of all time despite all of its flaw
No game ever made me as depressed as Automata did... fucking Yoko Taro, man... Ending A was so happy and shit and then it all went to hell...
Good video, I’ve never really thought about genres like this but now that you explain it it makes a lot of sense.
im lovin all these action game videos!!
voila With the announcement of Bayonetta 3 and Devil May Cry 5 the conversation was bound to heat up.
Brandon Powell with all this hype, i hope Godhand could get a re-release/remaster or sequel
voila I personally haven't played Godhand. I guess it just depends on who holds the license.
That would be Capcom. It was developed by the same team that also made Viewtiful Joe and Okami to name afew, who've now become Platinum Games. That being said, I think its unlikely to have a re-release or remaster anytime soon, if at all. If you wanna play God Hand, either track down a copy on the PS2 or go the emulation route.
KEEP A GOLD CHAIN ON MY NECK, FLY AS A JET, BOY BETTA TREAT ME WIT RESPECK!! I peep the beat and love the video homie, keep it up
Coming back to this as background noise and just recognizing the Aesop in the background~
Look if “Metroidvania” is enough of a distinction from regular action platformers to necessitate a sub genre, then character action games or “Devilnetta” games do also.
5:28 GamingBrit 😁😁
Nier Automata is definitely a character action game. The depth of 9S combos when he only has 1 attack button is absolutely mind blowing. This video is from 5 years ago. If you look at combo videos of Automata now in 2023, it looks as flashy as DMC and Bayonetta.
Jokes on you, that Jackson Pollock painting you showed wasn't oil on canvas. It was house paint on canvas.
You almost got me with this one and I did have to go back to my source to make sure, but that painting isn't a Pollock. www.saatchiart.com/art/Painting-No-4-2017-Abstract-Action-Drip-Painting-in-Pollock-Style-Oil-on-Canvas/1009732/3734586/view
Huh, done in Pollock style though cause it was tagged as such. And its still oil house paint.
Cool video though dude.
I feel like these videos are creating a new genre of character action game discussions.
Came from Foxcade's video and he just says what to expect of the genre without getting to the real point: Why making a video defining the genre's characteristics or a video about how culture influences the genre, if the whole need for those issue is exactly the name of the genre itself? It's a stupid, generic and reductive name, even more than just calling them Action games. If the point of the genre is indicating what to expect from it, why the hell give the genre a name that explains nothing?
This reminds me of the fighting game genere, and how there are various different versions of a fighting game. You got 2D fighters, 3D fighters, arena fighters, anime fighters, tag fighters, etc... (or I just can’t think of any more)
The last sentence would have been enough to sell the point to everybody...and it felt it needed some kind of mike drop! This was definitely a suitable moment for it!
Brit setting the topics
I think it's nice to see y'all chime in on this divisive topic
I might be the exception then but I just finished Bayonetta for the first time yesterday and I must say that while the gameplay is good what really got me into it was the story and presentation in general of the game, it's quite the unique experience.
Also I loved the constant and unapologetic references to older SEGA titles, every time I heard the game sneaking Outrun music in the background I was filled with joy.
KEEP A GOLD CHAIN ROUND MY NECK FLY AS A JET BOY BETTER TREAT ME WITH RESPECT
Love your vids man
What's the name of the pixel cyberpunk game around the 7:30 mark?
Technobabylon
Damn, the music in these videos are fuckin' dope.
Ca games need 1 of 3 things
Extensions to combat
Lead-ins to combat
Cancels to combat
Any of these will lend directly to the freeform combat that is character action.
Can’t wait for the next P5 video
Great vid and Aesop Rock in the bg. All I needed to say.
I'll still stick with Spectacle Fighter because these games literally are that and it sounds the coolest. Which is what this whole crazy party is all about.
I have conflicting feelings about genres, but this video is an interesting take on the subject I hadn't thought about. Thanks for the insight.
Yakuza isn't a Brawler, but it has the fighting engine of one. Automata is the same for Character Action. That's the conclusion I arrived to.
Good thing Character Action isn't a genre. It's an art style. There is no such thing as a pure character action game.
For the people that like hack & slash games, here are some from 2020 and beyond:
Soulstice
Valkyrie Elysium
Wanted: Dead
Etenights
Stella Blade
Project DT
Project M
Lost Soul Aside
Phantom Hellcat
Arise of Awakener
Granblue Fantasy Relink
Yasuke A Lost Descendent
Shred & Tear: Explosive Kajun
Shouts out to H&S games, they are making a comeback.
Thank you , do u know any indie hack n slash games as well
@@ahmedammar4856 if I'm not mistaken Etenights, Yasuke A Lost Descendant and Shred & Tear are indie H&S games.
Also Astor: blade of monolith and Mighteya are also.
Nice Aesop rock sample!
Interesting. I'm not sure the name "character action game" works as a genre name, simply because it doesn't have any stickiness, but the basis of the genre does make sense.
It also implies that, in theory, one could make an excellent game in this genre by stripping out nearly everything except the combat mechanics and level design, similar to how games in the Street Fighter genre almost never trend in their plot.
Is Sonic Unleashed and/or Sonic and the Black Knight a part character action game though?
I ask random things when I'm bored, OK?
To answer: well, we'll just have to see what the community thinks.
3:24 AW YEA ITS MAH BOI HEVY DEVY
Great video on dmc3! Love it
best way to explain this whole genre thing is to compare it to metal.
is it fine to call black metal, prog metal, death metal and such as just 'metal' yes, yes it is, same thing with calling these games 'action games' the problem that arises though is that the whole point of genre/sub genres is to help people know what the thing is they are looking at or looking for. to call 'heavy metal' as 'it's just metal with really good aggression' or some shit is practically useless because that could mean that ANYTHING. so to say ''they're just action game with really good combat'' could literally mean call of duty, doom or warhammer 40k space marine instead of devil may cry or ninja gaiden because ''action games'' are just that broad in scope. that's why the Englishman's 2 videos aren't even just mediocre, they are probably the worst content he has uploaded onto his channel and i can't take them seriously.
so here's my take on it, you have action games that cover a large group of other genres like fps, third person shooters and hack & slash/beat em ups. those genres also splinter off into several sub genres like with an fps will have arena shooters, retro shooters and war sims. what a sub genre does is highlight and define the particular focus of that piece of entertainment so say arma is a sim because it's focused on simulating real world combat as much as it can, an arena shooter is based more on putting players in an ''arena'' with which has weapons, armour, boots and such spread out the map. with third person shooters, besides simulators and cover based shooters, isn't quite defined by styles or mechanics like an fps but by setting like a sci fi third person shooter and so on and so forth. thing is though hack&slash/beat em ups only really change dependant on the culture of where it came from. western style combat generally wants to be grounded with slower and weighty movements and focuses on combat that serves utility over player expression, Japanese style hack&slash/beat em ups instead is very fast and is usually based on anime and focuses on combat that serves player expression over utility. considering there was a time when japan made a lot of rpgs that followed a specific formula and because of that we called them ''jrpgs'' is it really strange to do something similar with hack&slash/beat em ups?
Thank you. That TGBS video is anti-intellectual cancer, and his zombie followers who mindlessly parrot everything he says and litter the comments section of users like Foxcade are stage-4 cancer. His arguments to have character-driven action games simply be called action games with really good combat systems is goddamn reductionist and overly vague and broad, for the same reasons as those metal music genre examples you mention.
To give another example, Resident Evil 4 is an action game with really good combat. So is Vanquish. But they approach combat radically differently. It would also be as if someone said that all RPGs should be called "just RPGs". That would not be possible, because not only are Japanese RPGs and Western RPGs two different sub-genre approaches to the RPG genre, but within each of these sub-genres there are sub-sub-genres, such as tactical RPGs and action RPGs.
And even within the sub-sub-genres alone, there are different types. Diablo 2, Dark Souls and Ys: The Oath in Felghana are all action RPGs. However, these three action RPGs games are completely different approaches to the action RPG and cannot be reduced to just action RPGs.
I've been waiting for this
Now get Turbo Button in on this video response chain
Always love a new video
We need more games of Character Noir Thriller Drama Genre, because there is a big lack of this genre. I just remember of Max Payne and Deus Ex HR/MD.
What's the name of the game at 7:50?
Assault Spy
@@CodexEntry Thanks
Ok Codes i going to have to ask what the soundtrack you use in this Video cause it just so good . and i mean Both thew song.
Otogi and Bujingai need some love.
Though Quizz: What genre is Zone of the Enders 2?
What is the game at 7:50 ?
decided to pick up dmc4 during the steam sale on a whim, now im watching a video response to a video response to a video i watched last week. what have i gotten myself into
Cool vid, fucking great music choices.
I'm curious what you'd say of something like Tales or Kingdom Hearts 2. Unlike Automata, which plays essentially like a character-action game but with added RPG elements, both Tales and KH play decidedly differently. Yet both have still generated communities around crafting combo videos and boss-rushes that push them to their limits. In spite of this community, on a personal level, I would have a hard time describing either franchise with the label 'character action'.
THANK YOU!!!
Yo what's that game at 7:50?
Also, every video you just impress me with your taste in music.
Assault Spy. It's on Steam Early Access and it's 15 bucks. If you got money to burn, there are worse ways to set it on fire and you'll def have some fun with it. However it is currently in a pretty rough state and, as such, my recommendation is to wishlist it and grab it in a few months if it's cleaned itself up.
Also, glad you're liking it!
Thank you. I'll add it to my Steam Wishlist and pick it up when it out of Early Access.
Another great video
all of this because Gamingbrit rightfully pointed out God of No Jump was kind of shit in the gameplay department lol
He did it to himself
GekkanShounen yea no.
Does Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix Count a Character Action game?
Hot take: I would unironically say yes. That game is so slept on mechanically and it’s really easy to feel really cool in it.
i agree, too. From what we have seen, hopefully Kingdom Hearts 3 follows up on it after what I see as dissapoitingly downscaled versions of 1 and 2 with the handheld games.
You can't call anime separate from cartoons. That's like saying "it's a character action game not a video game"
Some call Monster Hunter and Dark Souls JRPGs.
Others call PREY and Deus Ex FPSs.
And some games are so unique and blend multiple genres making them hard to put in a category, like NieR:Automata.
Video game genre naming is a total mess.
I love Extra Credit's take on the matter: "We should stop naming game genres by mechanics and aethetics but rather by the underlying reasons we play the game"
That's the method I try to use to categorise games because that's the one that makes the most sense to me as a game designer.
Mark Brown's video "Do we need a Souls genre ?" is also great when it comes to that topic.
EDIT: If someone asked me what kind of game is NieR:Automata, telling them it's a Hack'n'Slash/A-RPG doesn't give any information about the type of experience you get out of this game.
If I give you the same answer for Bayonetta or DMC though, now your expectations are set in the right way.
Some games play with their genre to make a statement, like Spec OPS or DDLC, those are games that exist as direct responses to the games that came before them in their genres.
Gaming is about the experience, not the game.
I want to watch your video but I sincerely can't find a link to the video you suggested we watch first. "Foxhades video" ?? I tried searching for phonetic variations and still couldn't get it. I think it would be convenient for your viewers if you linked it somewhere, like in the description.
It's Foxcade.
yeah, that was my bad, just added it, sorry about that!
Thank you, I'm eager to watch! (Also thank you to Alice Victoria for also replying!)
my love for action rpgs like tales, nier, kingdom hearts and ys might be whyy i can easily get into chracter action games. they pretty much overlap. i don't come to chracter action games foor the storyy i come for the combat even if dante is enteratining.
Hey, good video. I'd love to see more colaborations like this, not that I wouldnt appreciate any video from you.
Shots fired!!
Eyyy, great follow up to Fox's video! Genres are fucking weird man.
Have you thought about doing a video on God of War (2018) and why you dreaded playing it? Like it, not like it? I like the GoW games but don't love them.
Nier is a JRPG with character action elements. I think the lack of ranking system makes it less like traditional character action games. JRPGs focus more on the narrative. In Bayonetta I think about how I'm going to get my next platinum, not what's happening in the plot. Nier does have that customization with your play style and combat, but I wouldn't call it character action. It's a JRPG with character action elements
Bayonetta has my favorite ever video game story along with Bloodborne. Yes, you have to think, and won't understand all of the details after a single play through, but it's a game designed with replayability in mind so to me, the fact that I can continue to get value out of the story after the first playthrough is exactly what a highly replayable genre such as this needs. Do the leg work and you will discover a story and a world with an attention to detail not found even in games that supposedly take storytelling seriously, like The Last of Us and God of War. It is a story that has some of the most profound ideas I have come across in my entire life, in and outside of media. I plan to start my own TH-cam channel and am currently writing my first video, which is about Bayonetta and its story because I see it dismissed so often, as if it's a FACT that it makes no sense and is "confused" when nah, that's just not true.
Anyways, I agree with everything else you said. Yes, Character Action is a genre, and your point about cartoons and guitar music was brilliant.
SwinnyUK you are propably the first person I've ever seen, saying that
Well, I guess it depends on what communities you hang out in. Most people want simple stories and easy gameplay, basically anything that would require you to think is a big no-no. It's depressing to see. This is why The Evil With 2 sucks. The original had an amazing story that was very complex and also had that same level of detail that games like Bloodborne and Bayonetta have, but a ton of people complained about it so they dumbed down the sequel and now even the people who complained about the original are saying "wait, I feel like we've lost something here"...
I guess it depends on how you play games. Personally, when I'm gaming, I absolutely do not want to relax. It's an interactive medium and I want to be involved, engaged and immersed, you know? But a lot of people do play to relax. I can't understand that, and think movies are better suited to relaxation. So when a game comes a long that rewards you for paying attention and, basically, not relaxing, you get tons of complaints. It's so depressing to see.
I think everything I've just said is only a part of the truth and not the whole truth. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers. This is just what I have observed over the past few years. From another perspective, maybe it's also that so few games have this kind of detail, so when a game comes along that does have this kind of detail, people just don't see it because they're not expecting it, and therefore aren't looking out for it. Again, I think this is part of the truth. It's a shame. All we can do is talk about these things and hope that sharing this information will raise awareness and take the gaming community as a whole to the next level.
SwinnyUK Sounds more like "to be fair you have to have a high iq to-"
Living Jojo, the thought never crossed my mind.
+J Riibz Model Prime Where's your evidence for that? By the way, scores don't count. A lot of people love DMC 4. And not everyone likes deep games. He's right. Besides, I thought you hated these kind of games, so why do you care?
butttttt good video bro
Lots of channels like these have really been breaking down the whole "character action" genre lately
Great video man. I include Nier: Automata as a Character Action Game.
Isn’t anime anime because of the artstyle?
What about Panty & Stocking, an anime that looks exactly like a western cartoon? Or alternatively, The Last Airbender which looks like anime but is a western cartoon?
I just call them 3D Melee Action Games, but it rolls off the tongue about as well as a long summary of the genre, so I'm still the only one calling them that... although now that I think about it, 3D Melee Action Traversal Games would work best as it excludes fighting games. Yeah, people will totally catch on to this,
I'm confused about your channel? You've been on TH-cam since 2016 but you don't have that many videos and despite how much you love devil may cry there are no video guides on any of the games?
In Japan, the distinction isn’t really made between “cartoons” and “anime”. To a Japanese person, both Spongebob and Yugioh are both anime. If they wanna be specific they just say (country name)’s anime.
artboy598 But I like having a word to describe that I like Yu-Gi-Oh like series more than Spongebob like.
Avatar is an anime, according to my linguistic needs.
Yo devin townsend reference tho
Regarding Nier:Automata (and any game actually), I'd say that community isn't the only judge, but also its creators. More specifically, their intent behind the game's creation is what matters. Nier, for instance, has most of the staples of a spectacle fighter (I prefer this term to character-action, but whatever) but the flashy, fast-paced, deep combat system doesn't seem like the main reason why this game was created. It's not the thing that's supposed to motivate you to play it and more of a way not to get bored during its 70+ hours of playtime. The main focus of that game was obviously its story and that's why I'd classify it as an RPG.
Now, sure, some people can and probably do enjoy this game solely for the combat system and how to master it, but since that's not where most of the focus went for the devs, I'd say most people won't fall into that category. And since genres are mostly useful to describe an artform to someone unfamiliar with it, I'd say it's important that it conveys what most people will see in it. As an example, I've got a group of friends who've been playing World of Warcraft for a long time. When playing together, they don't do quests, dungeons or PvP, they mostly just wander the world on their mounts while talking to each other. Still, if someone unfamiliar with WoW asked me what it is, I wouldn't describe it as a social platform even though some use it as such and the devs made sure it could also serve this purpose.
That being said, games aren't restricted to having only one genre and the spectacle-fighter tag isn't inappropriate for Nier:Automata, but if I had to describe it, I would say it's an RPG first and a character-action second.
I think creator intent is important, but not really defining of a work, especially once a culture gets their hands on it. I mean, no amount of Masahiro Sakurai insisting that Smash isn't a fighting game has stopped the Melee scene from growing. If culture, or in this case a subculture, decides that a thing falls under a certain category, there's not much the creator can really do to stop it.
I really wanna respond to your second point, but my response would essentially be a script for an upcoming video so I guess I just have to say 'Keep an eye out of a video about the smash scene soonish'.
I was actually thinking about mentioning Smash in my comment and am glad you plan to make an other video about it. This comment might be made obsolete by it, but allow me to respond anyway.
Competitive Melee has indeed a dedicated fanbase that keeps the game alive to this day, but if you take the Smash series as a whole, I doubt most people see them as truly competitive games since that's not what they look like nor how they are marketed. Most of the audience doesn't come to these games for the competitive aspect but for their fun, accessible, colourful style. In fact, I'd wager that even amongst the most competitive players (especially the first generation) first bought the game simply to have fun with their friends and only later became infatuated with its mechanics enough to try and master them past what was thought to be their maximum potential.
Basically, the competitive aspect isn't what most people seek in Smash and if I had to show what the game is to a complete novice, I probably wouldn't show them a high-level match. And it's not that the games couldn't focus on that element and be successful (they already are a great E-Sport without even trying) but what most people will seek in a game is what the devs will insist is important. In Smash's case, it's the fun element, not the technical one, even though both are present.
A weird example is RWBY by Rooster Teeth
The creator, Monty Oum (god rest his soul) intended it to be anime
The RWBY community insists it is anime
The Anime community insists that it isn't
Japan imported it to their country as "The first anime to be imported into japan"
Japan then proceeded to give it their own dub, release a manga and included it in BlazBlue CrossTag, a part of the "anime fighting game" sub-genre.
Exactly my point of view.
I won't go as far as to tell people that there is a wrong way to *enjoy* a video game, but there is definitely a wrong way to *play* a video game (play doesn't equate enjoyment)
You can have fun playing a game wrong, that has nothing to do with your enjoyment in the end, it has all to do with the devs intents for the game.
You can have fun eating soup with a knife, but a spoon will always be the better tool even if the one having fun with his knife finds it boring, because that's irrelevant.
That's a never-ending debate that has always existed in artistic fields with no clear cut: does the art belong to the audience or the artist ?
Codex Entry
If you are indeed making a ssb video in the same vein as this one, may I suggest a video _"The disconnect between Smash Bros and the FGC"_ by one *MacSplicer* ? Very informative video imho and worth a watch.
Ok let's be real here. We can argue about Character Action all day?
But is Avatar The Last Airbender a cartoon or anime?
H Dracon How about "anime-like cartoon"?
Or how about cartoon, which anime also fall into.
it's called hack and slash
Subscribed.
God of War 4 is literally being forced to play the same level 20 times in a row. Enemy and actual level variety (outside of visuals) is sorely lacking.
Cartoons and anime don't even have cultures. Subgenres within them have cultures, no? I like some anime, but wouldn't have much to talk about with most "anime fans." Death Note isn't anime, it's battle of wits supernatural psychological thriller. Initial D isn't anime, it's a psychological semi realistic action racing thriller.
With all due respect, Death Note and Initial D are both two of the Most Anime Anime to Have Ever Animed. They are two of the most deeply famous and influential show there are in anime circles. They are ALSO both thrillers, yes, but that does suddenly make them stop being anime just because of their subgenre of choice.
I like that distinction you made at the end of the video. mainly because the dynasty warriors games suck.
Hack n Slash >>>>>
You are right, culture defines a genre but a game/media shouldn't just stick with just one genre. Just like anime and cartoon, they're different genre but there are many genres within anime and cartoon. But I also believe an individual can define a genre by himself. If nobody doesn't want to define what Nier Automata genre is, I'll tell you by my perspective. It is character action, hack n slash, jrpg, open world, with shoot 'em up and shooter elements genre. Yoko Taro, the one who created Nier Automata because he doesn't like to confine a game to just one genre. He wanted to say fuck genre.
By the way, many who likes character action/ hack n slash dislike God of War 2018 because they thought it is in the same genre as the older games but God of War 2018 is an action adventure genre, not character action/ hack n slash. It makes sense you don't like that game.
Can we just make an entirely new genre that's just "Yoko Taro"?
Nay, you're all wrong!
NieR: Automata is a twinstick shooter!
*MUA HA HA HA HAA!*