Once I asked my instructor what I should do if engine quits over a forest, and he used to repeat the old adage, "Find the smallest, cheapest thing to hit and do it at the lowest speed possible."
You can try to glide and maintain altitude till you spot the relatively safe ground to put it down, in a thick forest just land on the canopy in low speed with full flaps
landing off-airport in snow can be a whole other issue most people are totally unaware of and unprepared for. there are many different types of snow. Snow can conceal obstacles, downed trees, ditches, rough fields, etc. And it can be far deeper than you think. It could be solid ice, wet and heavy, light and fluffy, and worst it can be ice crust layer on top and fluffy below the crust. this WILL likely flip your plane upon breaking through the crust. A snowy field could also turn out to be a frozen lake with thin ice (very dangerous). Another reason I prefer roads.
One reason why these new small electric planes are great for flight schools (couple schools near me slowly getting them) . Very easy to use and fly just like a little cessna (1 lever for power) 45-60 mins flight times, Perfect for practising engine failures as there is no motor running and prop can be left to windmill for drag or not, without having to shutdown the IC-Engine.
Which is why electric-powered airplanes will never be able to carry any reasonable amount of human or cargo mass. There is no real or even theoretical technology that could allow it.
@@karlrschneider that's overstated. There's certainly is theoretical technology. But not so theoretical anymore. Not only are graphene batteries now a very real possibility, with 10 times the capability of lithium-ion, but there's also zero point energy on the horizon finally get a breakthrough from hundreds of years of suppression.
Agreed, with engine securing prior to landing. But be aware that shutting Everything down can cause problems. Shutting off electrical could disable flaps, radios, etc. stuff you may still need. Make sure to think about this ahead of time and adjust checklists appropriately.
We just recently had an engine/power failure scene in Nashville Tennessee. Family of five and no survivors but the pilot landed right beside the interstate in a grassy area and saved a bunch of lives by not landing where a bunch of vehicles were traveling.
8:00 What's interesting is that my instructor taught me to not go spot-shopping, but if I see a better spot on my descent, to definitely go with the better one. However, the chief instructor, when he was doing my checkride pre-check said I needed to pick a spot and stick with it because that's what the DPE expects (and he was right, the DPE wanted to see if I would make the spot I originally selected). But honestly, this notion always seemed like a really good way to pull into that Great Big FBO in the Sky.
Yes, I think the DPE wants to grade you on your ability to make your chosen landing spot, but I totally agree; it’s stupid to stick with something if you know you aren’t going to make it
Very good and complete coverage of engine failure. Because most engine failures are on takeoff, I emphasize low altitude orientation over high altitude orientation. High orientation is best glide. Low orientation is airspeed, and not altitude is life. Think in terms of zoom reserve airspeed like Vcc rather than best glide. Level in low ground effect acceleration on takeoff and pitch only enough to just clear obstructions rather than fly well over is what gives default zoom reserve or Vcc airspeed. Because of crop dusting and pipeline patrol with a 200' AGL waiver, eleven of my thirteen engine failures were low orientation and it was this extra airspeed for maneuvering that gave me the flexibility to survive. They were six second deals. Best glide airspeed or even looking at the airspeed indicator is a distraction. Vx or Vy, almost never appropriate, are way too slow at 200' for much flexibility. Turn at whatever bank angle will make the survivable LZ in the very near hemisphere in front of the wing while allowing the nose to go down as designed. Do not pull on the yoke to maintain altitude. The airplane cannot stall itself, a pilot pulling on the stick is required. Just there just now. It is a six second deal. I was almost always high and fast to this very near LZ requiring full flaps and full forward slip in the turn to target. So the high altitude orientation is what you will experience on the checkride. What I am talking about at low altitude is more likely what we will get in real life. Turn at 1 g (no back pressure on stick) and you will not stall. Don't stall and you will likely survive. Don't climb so fast you are likely to stall onto airport property. Just maneuver the airplane well (airspeed) where it is. Again, good job with complete coverage of the subject.
Better do the troubleshoots in a sequence, not crisscross. It total engine fail start with fuel valve, if partial start with carb heat, then lean mixture a bit and sequence, pass thru seat belt and start again like a circle around, That is called A Round Check. I did that since 1994.
thank you! i am scheduled to do my first lesson on emergency procedures tomorrow in the simulator. Great information and I feel a bit more prepared to handle these issues! cheers everyone!
At around 5:20 you suggest that a windmilling propeller has less drag than a stopped prop. A windmilling propeller has more drag, not less than a stopped prop.
I’ve actually heard it both ways. A feathered propeller definitely creates less drag, but a windmilling propeller is also at a lower angle of attack than a stopped propeller in a fixed pitch propeller. That’s my thoughts on the matter
Now you've made me curious and go off and do a whole lot of reading. 😁 For me the thing I couldn't get past was a windmilling propeller is doing work turning the engine and this must reduce the amount of energy the airplane's loss of altitude can convert into forward energy. But aerodynamics is a complicated subject and there are many factors at play. The most interesting thing I found was a NACA study that measured drag of a stopped propeller vs. freewheeling propeller vs. windmilling propeller turning and engine. At 17° pitch and at 75 mph, the windmilling propeller produced 29% more drag than a stopped one (but freewheeling produced 36% less drag, which makes sense). At 100mph the same relationship holds, but the windmilling penalty is only 6% rather than 29%. I suspect if they continued to higher speeds, windmilling would beat stopped. This is all going to vary with propeller pitch, specific airplane and engine characteristics, etc. The only real way to know would be to try it both ways on a specific airplane. But this raises the whole question of whether it's a good idea to stop a running engine on a single engine plane. Some people have no problem, others have a valid argument against it!
Yes but a stall prop moving in the air and not spinning makes less drag as its stalled once an airfoil stalls the drag falls off drastically. Same applies for a stalled wing makes less drag then same wing flying at its max speed @@FreePilotTraining
I had a small polystyrene airplane as a kid, came with a bag of chips. There was also a small prop with it. No motor. I tested out it flew better with the prop free spinning( no load of an engine) instead of an equal load without prop. It always intrigued me, later flew model RC airplanes. Home build 80’s
In my previous life, I was a sailor. On my last ship if we were only running on one engine, once we were above a set speed, we had to free wheel the shaft to reduce drag. We had controllable pitch and would adjust the pitch to maintain the slowest shaft speed we could above 65 rpm (the minimum speed for proper lubrication, on that ship). Below 8 knots it was too hard to keep that shaft spinning and we would pitch it out to stop it.
Super Incredible Video, and although a bit long, I will be watching it again. You can never invest enough into surviving an emergency in this wonderful 'sport'. I do hope more pilots practice this scenario with the seriousness and attention it deserves. (amateur pilot here)
@@FreePilotTraining I enjoyed your video. I literally just started my PPL journey. So need all the help to get things right first time, and save money and time. So you thank you. I appreciate your video
I had an engine failure on take off in a 1959 C-150 I had been flying for about 1000 hours over 4 years. I knew this airplanes slow flight characteristics as I used the aircraft for photography and surveys. It was cold that morning, 23 degrees f. With a direct crosswind. The preflight and startup were normal. Taxi and run up seemed normal except for a very slight drop in rpm on the carb heat. Take off was always brisk and a cold day ROC of about 700 FPM came rapidly with a control input to maintenance runway heading was held. At about 350' indicated and past half the 3200' runway the engine quit suddenly. No surge, no warning. Here's the headline: push the nose down and keep speed up the second the power goes out. In the seconds after engine failure I was reaching for carb heat astonished the thing quit. The airplane was nose high bleeding off airspeed at 300' . Only when I heard the stall horn did I snap the nose over. I was about 200 feet off the CL to the right side of the runway . The left wing was stalling as I was trying to squeeze a left turn to the safety area at the end of the runway. The plane was almost fully stalled but didn't have altitude enough to roll off and did lift her nose a bit. The left wing and nose contacted the two feet of crusty snow . I walked away from it. The stall horn saved me. Your comment about muscle memory is IMHO spot on. Fly on!
Extremely well put together vid! Good work. I taught my students to memorize the engine failure, engine fire, and electrical fire checklists then reference them when things are a little more under control. Gotta do memory items when they get to the airlines anyway so teach em early I say.
In my earlier years I flew Gliders, Sailplanes. If you have a low level cable break, you need to pitch down from 20 degrees nose up. My first practice engine failure in a Warrior I lifted myself and instructor of our seats, my pitch over was so rapid. He said most people are far too slow. He told me to slow down.
It depends on your current speed and the airplane you’re flying. If you have a ton of excess airspeed, you can also do something called a zoom climb to trade for a little altitude.
I'm a glider pilot too, but I think when you have an engine failure in a GA aircraft, you really don't need to pitch down as rapidly as in a glider after a cable break. During a winch launch, the glider pitches up to approximately 45 degrees, no GA aircraft climbs in such steep pitch angles. When the cable breaks at that attitude, the airspeed drops rapidly and the glider stalls within 1-2 seconds, if the pilot does not react. When the engine fails on a GA aircraft, you got way more time to react. At level flight, the airspeed would decrease gradually and the aircraft would pitch down on its own, if it's trimmed appropriately.
Did a LOTOT yesterday on my BFR in my 1945 172 (0300 - 145 HP.) Added 6 seconds reaction time. Took me 600' to make the 180 deg. turn. However, IMO, just cause you make the turn doesn't mean you are going to make the runway so CFI recommended 1000' to attempt the impossible turn.
In transport category multi-enginne aircraft, there are memory items mandated for each aircraft, so you're right. It would be even more critical in a single-engine aircraft
16:13 and 400ft is BEST case. you're flying in winter. and reaction time? i'd say 500ft or more to be safe. Edit: i see you address some of this. but do Not forget higher DA conditions, unfavorable xwinds, and time to flare.
All of the first 50 or so landings I did were dead-stick. yes, I did my initial training on gliders. Dead stick landings I can handle. I suggest all pilots do a few trips in gliders, you will definetely improve your landing skills.
It depends. If you are in the cruise, the very first thing that you should do is trade some of your horizontal velocity for altitude. Pull back on the stick. Yes, you do this BEFORE anything else. Those couple of hundred extra feet could just save your bacon. Edit: if you’re flying a single with a constant speed unit FULLY COARSEN your propeller to reduce induced drag if you think you won’t make that field. It WILL stretch your glide. Yes, I know your 172 doesn’t have one.
Very true. I’m a huge fan of the zoom climb. That’s one thing I forgot to talk about in this video. And yes, coarsening or feathering the prop makes a huge difference
yup. most aircraft i fly, I actually climb out at speeds Above best glide. Vy is going to naturally be faster than best glide, and even more so a higher speed climb, which I often do for better cooling during the climb out on a hot day.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 not at all. it's about being in control of your aircraft at all times, thus being aware of your condition and how to react accordingly. If fast, pitch up slightly for best glide, if slow, pitch nose down promptly.
Really really really awesome video. Something that I think you could also touch on is the approach speed to landing. My chief pilot just taught me recently that you want to fly your Vg allllll the way till you are leveling off for the flare. With a prop not windmilling creating the spiraling slipstream (prop wash) over the elevator you are going to hit the ground HARD if you try to rotate at your normal approach speed. You lose a ton of elevator authority. He explained it much better than I did but hopefully you get what I’m trying to say.
On most general aviation aircraft, full nose up on the trim wheel is very close to the best glide speed. I like to test that in each new plane I fly, and of course have checklists with the correct v speeds readily accessible.
@@Timberns please explain the math, as stated above I’ve already confirmed it on many aircraft. Does your math say full up trim will fly slower than best glide or faster?
Hi. Thanks for this video. Very instructive. I've been talking a lot with my instructor about the impossible turn recently, and in my eyes the problem with your calculation is that you didn't really factor in the distance from the airport while climbing. In addition your take-off weight is relevant. In my opinion an impossible turn while on the departure leg can only work if you have a reasonably long runway - basically a runway that is so long, that you're still over it when you reach 400 ft AGL. My home airfield only has an 1800ft grass runway. When I reach 400ft AGL I'm already half a mile or so from the threshold. AND if I were flying at MTOW I would be even farther away because my climb speed would be lower. So no matter if I'm 400ft or 1000ft AGL, I will not make it back to the airfield as long as I'm still on the departure leg, because with each foot I climb I get farther away from the runway. Now if the engine quits on crosswind while I'm already close to pattern altitude, the thing is different, because 1. I don't have to turn the full 180° anymore and lose less altitude in the turn 2. I can cut across directly to the runway and will fly a shorter distance back, than I did flying out. The third point I would need some advice: glide speed. As far as I know the best glide speed in the POH is calculated for MTOW, right? So if I were alone in the plane with tanks only half full, my best glide speed should be lower than the one in the POH, since I would need less speed to stay aloft, or am I on the wrong track here?
You are correct. Technically, you would need to figure your distance from the runway, but you are never going to know that. That takes a tremendous amount of work for something that may or may not ever happen. That’s why I didn’t discuss it.
I passed my Checkride today because of you. Appreciate all the great work you do, please keep it up. (I’d love to see an instrument series) I’ll definitely be ordering some merchandise soon
I haven't maintained my ratings, but since living in Nebraska one of the best pieces of advice on engine out landings was to land the same direction the corn rows run!
I love your videos. I just started flying after a 38 year absence. So many more resources available online today not to mention simulators like X-Plane. PS check the spelling of “mixture” :-). Thank you for the lessons
@@FreePilotTraining True! And it shows you the correct "picture" of a grass field or corn field, how to look for cables (actually the poles), and topography (looking at shadows around rocks, holes, and irrigation channels, etc.).
If you decide to attempt the impossible turn you should consider the crosswind. If there is any crosswind you should make the turn into the wind. This will keep you closer to the runway. Turning to the downwind side will take you further away and might make the turn impossible without more altitude. The only reason I can think of to not do this is if there was a parallel runway in use that posed a threat if you were to get too close.
I teach the checklist memorization too. At both flight schools I was at we did the same. we even made custom checklists for the flight schools. And everything was black and white, but all memorization parts of the checklists had red borders around them. We tested students on the memorized portions of the checklists, and made them recite them at random any time we liked. part of this came from my time in helicopters, where you need both hands to fly and don't have time in emergencies to look at your checklists. so for helicopters we actually memorized all of the procedures/checklists, as well as most of the POH, as you weren't going to be consulting them in flight when you may only have less than 10sec to land. I do this with my own aircraft too. I create far superior custom checklists that are 10x better than any provided for the aircraft I fly, and have them on a kneeboard (I Never fly without a kneeboard, another helicopter habit).
That’s exactly what I do. I bold font the items that I want my students to commit to memory. The Air Force calls it bold face. That’s cool that you are doing it too! Someday, I’ll learn to fly egg beaters
Rhodesian/Zimbabwean pilots and from my experience South African pilots, learn vital actions and procedures by memorizing mnemonics such as: Too Many Pilots Forget How, Hasell and Bumpff etc. In all my time flying in Africa I never ever saw a printed checklist. Yet, here I am.
A stopped or low power producing (carb ice...) engine - that carb heat needs to come on right away - same time as you are controlling the attitude and looking for your spot. For a non-injected engine don't wait - get that carb heat on now!
Josh, Thank you for yet another great content! I really like the fact that you incorporated your military training in this video! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
4:52 A windmilling propeller produces a higher drag coefficient than a stopped prop. Your glide distance increases when your propeller is stopped, not when the propeller is windmilling. Cessna gives you the worst-case glide ratio under the assumption that you do not try to forcibly stop your prop from windmilling
@@FreePilotTraining Actually I just had a look into it (should've done so before commenting). The drag coefficient of a windmilling prop depends greatly on its blade angle. The stationary prop has a much shallower drag curve throughout its blade angles. At very high blade angles, the windmilling prop can potentially produce less drag than a stationary one. However, a low-blade-angle, windmilling propeller does produce a tremendous amount of drag, far more than a stationary prop of its same angle. In the case of the C172, it would depend on its blade angle (of which I can't seem to find on the internet). Source: www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/00-80T-80.pdf page 149, figure 2.19
@@FreePilotTraining I tried replying once, but it didn't post for some reason. Anyway, I had a look into it, which I should've done before posting. A windmilling propeller at a low blade angle will produce a tremendous amount of drag, much more than a stationary prop at the same pitch. However, as the blade pitch increases, the stationary prop'a drag curve remains shallow, while the windmilling prop's curve drops off sharply. At high blade angles, a windmilling prop CAN potentially produce less drag than a stopped prop. For the 172, it would depend on the blade angle (of which I am unable to find online). Source: www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/00-80T-80.pdf page 149, figure 2.19
Very good video, but a couple of observations. 1.) if an engine failure and you are on Both try Left and Right individually, it could be a switch problem where only both is effected! If you go to Left or Right, you may get your engine back.. Slightly less power, but not by much (Lower Power, is better than No Power)! 2.) Keep in mind that different planes handle different ways. For example, mine that I am primary training has Fuel Injection (No Prime) an is Complex with a Constant speed prop. Added steps to the checklist. I subscribed to your channel!
Why I got you online what’s the procedures. how do I know when I’m ready to take the written test I live in a country in California my airport has about 10 hangers old old. i’m 49 years old my grandfather and father both the flu and they’re both deceased now so I’m just starting to figure it out I’m trying to get my sports pilot license to start.I think I’m on episode 15 of yours so I’m gonna take notes. on every episode due to a partially dyslexic well these videos really help me because I learned by site mostly is there any information that you can give me to start this journey kind of the quickest way to get my license started to seal the deal. I kind of want to buy. airplane now due to the prices are rising. and then to get my license I have to have so many hours a flight time with an instructor on the sports part I don’t know really what you need I’m kind of lost. if you can can you help me for me from a to Z. .I have an old crop duster pilot out here maybe I could talk to him about gathering of hours when the time is needed like I said I don’t know what I’m getting into any information super valuable to me thank you love your videos you explain very well.
This is a very good video and thank you for making it. I believe there is one error early on however. A windmilling prop causes MORE drag than a stationary prop, and therefore your glide distance is actually longer if the prop stops completely.
Thanks! I’m not convinced that a windmilling prop creates more drag. I’ve heard that, but I have a theory that it doesn’t. It may be worth a video. What do you think?
@@FreePilotTraining Definitely worth a video I think. However I'm not sure how the result would influence my decision making in such an emergency. It's probably not feasible (safe?) for most pilots to evaluate the respective glide performance on their own aircraft, although I do believe many years ago it was common practice for instructors to teach forced landings with an actual "dead stick"! Also worth considering: What if you have a constant speed prop on your aircraft? Does one set high or low RPM? (I suspect low...). A quick search around the internet found varying opinions and little proof either way. One thing I did note was that several pilots attempted to "stop the prop" themselves by reducing airspeed as much as possible before resuming best glide, in the process of which they lost a lot of time and altitude, both of which you want more of, not less!
Man you and seth lake are awesome love the videos. Preparing for my ppl checkride thanks a ton will Update when i get satisfactory 😉 ( gotta be confident am i right)
You never said you were unlatching the doors when you implemented your scenario...now you're stuck in the metal coffin under the snow... RIP free pilot training
Windmilling prop produces tons less drag than "frozen" one? That is what I said to my instructor and he told me to do some resarch as he was confident that I was wrong. Is there any chance we can get a brief explanation of this phenomena?
Excellent video Josh. Always good to keep those emergency procedures well practiced. Looks like you are getting some good cold weather flying in up there. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friend 🇺🇸🛩️
@@FreePilotTraining that we have. Snow last week with below 0 temps and now freezing rain coming in tonight and tomorrow. I just hope the weather is decent for my checkride. It's so close, and I'm so nervous. Lol
Vglide is with windmilling prop unless manual says the contrary. Most props stop at around 60 knots, That is under the Vglide for most 4 seaters. Dont try to stop the prop except on 2 seats or less LSA's with Vglide 60 knots or less. The wings drag will be increased by trying to stop the prop on most 4-6 place airplanes and Vglide distance be cut. Also you are closer to the 3o bank stalling speed and many have stalled turning final with stopped prop. Most LSA's can, but most 4 seaters cant turn safely with stopped prop at 60 knots.
Back in the 1960s Cessna did an experiment and determined that a "stopped prop" would add approximately 20% more distance to the glide. A windmilling prop still caused drag. Cessna's chart is based on a windmilling propeller. They didn't provide one for a stopped propeller. So, if you know that your engine is really dead, and there is no chance it can be restarted, (fuel exhaustion) consider stopping the propeller. It could be the difference in reaching the emergency landing place. How to do that? Just pitch up a little until it stops, it won't take long. Also, my chief pilot was a P-51 pilot during WWII. He taught me that should the engine quit at altitude, to immediately steeply bank to the left and to the right and look straight down. Sometimes the best place to land might be right below you. Then you can slow down to an airspeed slower than the best glide, that is, the maximum endurance airspeed. This airspeed is slightly slower than the best glide and will keep you aloft for a longer time. This may buy you some time to determine to problem just in case there is a chance for a restart.
What's more drag-producing, a Cessna with a spinning prop, or one with no propeller? Assuming no thrust is being produced, of course. A stopped prop is the closest you will come to a no-propeller condition. A spinning prop with no power produces mostly drag, it might even be a stalled wing as it free spins.@@FreePilotTraining
Can you clarify on saying that a stopped prop will create more drag and thus have a lesser glide distance than a windmilling prop? I was taught the opposite. Edit: This is of course talking about a fixed pitch prop, like the 172
Very interesting as usual. This time, most of it is part of basic PPL training, but it's always good to listen again. That said, you gave some additional personal information like you always do, which is great. Speaking of the famous U-turn, I would try to do it on the side where the wind is coming preferably. Of course we should already be into the wind on takeoff, but I'd guess that 95% of the time there is a crosswind component, so tacking in that direction will keep the airplane closer to the runway. What do you think?
I definitely will at some point. I’m just extremely busy for the next couple months. Hopefully I can really start pushing out more content after things slow down for me
You said stuck propeller creates more drag than windmilling. Could you confirm that? I thought that windmilling prop creates more drag. I also heard about technique to reduce airspeed first to stop the prop spinning and then slowly increase airspeed. If prop didn’t start to spinning again, you would be able to glide further away (or longer time - I don’t remember).
I’ve received mixed views on this. In my opinion, the prop is at a lower AoA when spinning. Yes, the wind turns the engine, but the wind pushes directly against the prop in a frozen example. Might be worth further research
I teach road landings. but NOT with powerlines. tight roads with parallel lines are often too tight for the wingspan (I actually make students tell me the airplane wingspan and how wide the given road is). And then there are perpendicular crossing powerlines. but many roads have no powerlines. And where I live, many places it's either dense trees or a country road, no fields at all. You take the road if you can. And when their are fields, there are hazards there too. i come from a farming family, and I can tell you that certain fields can be as bad as trees if you land in them wrong. Some fields look great form 2000ft, but at 100ft you're seeing your life flash before your eyes. Another reason I take roads if I can, as the odds of success are higher. pilots have an easier time thinking of a road as a runway than an abstract field of unknown size and that is often very short (most fields will be less than 1mile long in its longest direction not counting trees on either end that shorten your usable distance, meaning less than 5000ft at most, much too often it might be closer to 2000ft).
Best glide allows you to glide the farthest distance while minimum sink keep you in the air for the longest time possible. Bold method has a great article on the subject: www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-to-handle-a-power-off-landing-following-an-engine-failure-best-glide-or-minimum-sink-how-to-manage-it/#:~:text=Minimum%20sink%20is%20always%20slower,significantly%20impact%20your%20glide%20range.
@@FreePilotTraining, thank you very much!! The article is very helpful. Wayne Detwiler's comment "There is another way to determine minimum sink. It's the same speed as maximum endurance and is equal to your best glide speed divided by 1.316, Carson's nimber. It would be good to know this number for your plane if you have a landing site in reach and need time to sort things out. OBTW, best glide times 1.316 equals your best economy in gph per knot of airspeed." is also very informative (if he is correct). use his method, if the best glide speed is 100 knots, then the minimum sink speed will be only 76 knots.
to be serious this was a very good educational video and engine quits 1. I plan a will my flight sim computer and flight tools go to Free Pilot . 2 everything else goes to a good will . 3. money wellll to free pilot training to buy a better video card. and that will cover some of it due to the high cost of video cards lol
@@FreePilotTraining lol I do watchall of your videos to help me stay prfoficiant and current though being sim but can use these lessons to practice just the same.
Carb heat should be applied immediately. If ice is the cause, there might not be sufficient engine heat if you dilly-dally looking for a spot to land before applying carb heat. Also, if induction ice is the cause, carb heat will supply an alternate source of air to the engine.
Regarding your example calculation of 700ft required to successfully perform an "impossible turn," do you have an estimate of how much additional height you should probably require to take into account the difference between an idling engine (ie. the observed altitude loss when practising the maneuver with an engine still generating a small amount of thrust) vs. a dead engine (ie. the actual altitude loss you'd encounter in a real engine-out emergency). Would adding an extra 50-100ft account for this small difference, or could it be more significant than that? Same question for a stuck prop emergency too I guess, as you mentioned it would result in even greater drag.
Suppose you are climbing out in your Cessna 172, and at 500ft AGL, the engine not only quits, but locks up, and the prop isn't turning (engine torque = 0). If you stall the plane, will it roll, or will the nose pitch straight down? Great video, thanks for posting!
@@FreePilotTraining Lately, I've spent some time researching accidents, and found a significant number that involved low altitude stalls, wherein the plane rolled upside down, presumably from the engine torque. If a pilot heard the stall warning and instinctively applied full throttle, the condition could easily go from manageable to complete loss of control (due to the instant increase in engine torque). Id love to see a video on this topic. Thanks!
Is going around 100ft really going to give you that much better training than 500ft? Does the benefit outweigh that risk? I ask that because the last time we did engine out drills in a 5 year old Cessna 172 the engine ran very rough upon applying full power (to the point that we considered our practice engine out might be a real one), probably from prolonged gliding at idle. During commercial training you are taught to clear the engine during steep spirals to prevent fouling or excessive engine cooling- and that needs to be done at any time you are in a prolonged idle such as gliding down from 3K.
thanks for the very informative and useful video as usual. Would you be so nice to provide details on techniques on how to approach/use a best spot to land? My understand is that I should cross the landing spot at 1000ft AGL and then start downwind, base and final. But I struggle to identify this spot when flying "high" as I just see fields (so potentially suitable landing spots) that are far from the plane and I'm unable to approach them being above the right spot at the right altitude. (I hope my question was clear). tnx
Ok, I can almost guarantee you that your instructor is an old military pilot teaching you high and low key maneuvering. You do not need to know that. Does it work? Yes, but I’m tired of instructors teaching this stuff to new students. It’s extra stuff that makes it more difficult to pass the checkride. My advice is that if you want to stick with this instructor, always error on the side of being a little high during the maneuver and then you can use every tool available to get yourself down to the runway. I’ll think about how I could tackle a video
Would it be a good idea to teach the co-pilot (in case it's not a real pilot) how to start the engine so in case of engine failure he can try to restart it?
Watch your speed, lower the nose, fly straight, find a field or open area, land gear up, insurance co. owns it now, you go home for dinner. Oh, and take some AQP training while you watch Dan Gryder Probable Cause. Happy Flyin'.
Is there any difference between an engine at idle speed (training) versus an engine off with a windmilling propeller? I’m a former LEO and I understand training isn’t always a real life scenario but as close as we can get.
@@FreePilotTraining Yes. I remember you mentioned a non spinning prop can create drag versus a windmilling prop. I was just curious of the difference in best glide of a prop spinning at idle speed. It might be negligible for all I know. I’ve just begun to look into a private pilot journey. I’ve been doing all the research I can before I get into it. I do enjoy your videos and the comedy inserted. Keep it up!
as a certified pilot who has flown decades the smartest and best thing to do if your engine fails at any altitude is just jam your yoke all the way forward, and put thrust to toga, also count to one thousand while maintaining perfect eye contact with your dead cousin, you will rejoin him shortly if this advice is followed.
I love the 172H. 0300, great engine. But a stuck prop makes your 172 glide better, not worse. Believe me, I tried. Why? A turning prop is like a big wooden disk in front of you, because a turning prop means a turning engine with a lot of internal resistance. I’m pretty confident this applies to all planes with an internal combustion engine. Other than that, good item. And train this situation for real. Not on a cold day - shock cooling is never a good idea, check your poh - but do stop your engine, if needed by gradually pulling up to stall speed. And prepare your aircraft for a restart: carb heat in and mixture full rich. Have fun!
Minor issue but you only said MAYDAY twice during your actual practice near the end of the video. Say it 3 times in the hope that your radio is modulating at full power and at least one gets through to someone who might hear your call.
Aims community College won't let me graduate without memorizing the first like 5 steps to all emergency procedures. After this vid, I totally respect that requirement
I’ve done this on sim and not that easy o ur goal was to loose not more then 300ft to 400 that’s exactly what you said … we tuned directly 1000 ft after take off at times 600
Once I asked my instructor what I should do if engine quits over a forest, and he used to repeat the old adage, "Find the smallest, cheapest thing to hit and do it at the lowest speed possible."
Love it
You can try to glide and maintain altitude till you spot the relatively safe ground to put it down, in a thick forest just land on the canopy in low speed with full flaps
The patches of lighter green trees are usually younger and softer and more flexible.
landing off-airport in snow can be a whole other issue most people are totally unaware of and unprepared for. there are many different types of snow. Snow can conceal obstacles, downed trees, ditches, rough fields, etc. And it can be far deeper than you think. It could be solid ice, wet and heavy, light and fluffy, and worst it can be ice crust layer on top and fluffy below the crust. this WILL likely flip your plane upon breaking through the crust. A snowy field could also turn out to be a frozen lake with thin ice (very dangerous). Another reason I prefer roads.
Very true.
And it can make you snow blind where you can’t even tell how high above it you even are. Great point.
I think this is the best "engine failure lesson" I ever seen. Clear, simple, complete, no frills. Great !!!
Thanks Max!
One reason why these new small electric planes are great for flight schools (couple schools near me slowly getting them) .
Very easy to use and fly just like a little cessna (1 lever for power) 45-60 mins flight times,
Perfect for practising engine failures as there is no motor running and prop can be left to windmill for drag or not, without having to shutdown the IC-Engine.
Which is why electric-powered airplanes will never be able to carry any reasonable amount of human or cargo mass. There is no real or even theoretical technology that could allow it.
@@karlrschneider that's overstated. There's certainly is theoretical technology. But not so theoretical anymore. Not only are graphene batteries now a very real possibility, with 10 times the capability of lithium-ion, but there's also zero point energy on the horizon finally get a breakthrough from hundreds of years of suppression.
Agreed, with engine securing prior to landing. But be aware that shutting Everything down can cause problems. Shutting off electrical could disable flaps, radios, etc. stuff you may still need. Make sure to think about this ahead of time and adjust checklists appropriately.
We just recently had an engine/power failure scene in Nashville Tennessee. Family of five and no survivors but the pilot landed right beside the interstate in a grassy area and saved a bunch of lives by not landing where a bunch of vehicles were traveling.
That’s sad. I’m sure that was a tough decision.
8:00 What's interesting is that my instructor taught me to not go spot-shopping, but if I see a better spot on my descent, to definitely go with the better one. However, the chief instructor, when he was doing my checkride pre-check said I needed to pick a spot and stick with it because that's what the DPE expects (and he was right, the DPE wanted to see if I would make the spot I originally selected). But honestly, this notion always seemed like a really good way to pull into that Great Big FBO in the Sky.
Yes, I think the DPE wants to grade you on your ability to make your chosen landing spot, but I totally agree; it’s stupid to stick with something if you know you aren’t going to make it
Very good and complete coverage of engine failure. Because most engine failures are on takeoff, I emphasize low altitude orientation over high altitude orientation. High orientation is best glide. Low orientation is airspeed, and not altitude is life. Think in terms of zoom reserve airspeed like Vcc rather than best glide. Level in low ground effect acceleration on takeoff and pitch only enough to just clear obstructions rather than fly well over is what gives default zoom reserve or Vcc airspeed. Because of crop dusting and pipeline patrol with a 200' AGL waiver, eleven of my thirteen engine failures were low orientation and it was this extra airspeed for maneuvering that gave me the flexibility to survive. They were six second deals. Best glide airspeed or even looking at the airspeed indicator is a distraction. Vx or Vy, almost never appropriate, are way too slow at 200' for much flexibility. Turn at whatever bank angle will make the survivable LZ in the very near hemisphere in front of the wing while allowing the nose to go down as designed. Do not pull on the yoke to maintain altitude. The airplane cannot stall itself, a pilot pulling on the stick is required. Just there just now. It is a six second deal. I was almost always high and fast to this very near LZ requiring full flaps and full forward slip in the turn to target.
So the high altitude orientation is what you will experience on the checkride. What I am talking about at low altitude is more likely what we will get in real life. Turn at 1 g (no back pressure on stick) and you will not stall. Don't stall and you will likely survive. Don't climb so fast you are likely to stall onto airport property. Just maneuver the airplane well (airspeed) where it is.
Again, good job with complete coverage of the subject.
Thank you so much! I too am a huge fan of the zoom climb. Airspeed is life at low altitudes!
Better do the troubleshoots in a sequence, not crisscross. It total engine fail start with fuel valve, if partial start with carb heat, then lean mixture a bit and sequence, pass thru seat belt and start again like a circle around, That is called A Round Check. I did that since 1994.
thank you! i am scheduled to do my first lesson on emergency procedures tomorrow in the simulator. Great information and I feel a bit more prepared to handle these issues! cheers everyone!
You’re welcome!
At around 5:20 you suggest that a windmilling propeller has less drag than a stopped prop. A windmilling propeller has more drag, not less than a stopped prop.
I’ve actually heard it both ways. A feathered propeller definitely creates less drag, but a windmilling propeller is also at a lower angle of attack than a stopped propeller in a fixed pitch propeller. That’s my thoughts on the matter
Now you've made me curious and go off and do a whole lot of reading. 😁 For me the thing I couldn't get past was a windmilling propeller is doing work turning the engine and this must reduce the amount of energy the airplane's loss of altitude can convert into forward energy. But aerodynamics is a complicated subject and there are many factors at play. The most interesting thing I found was a NACA study that measured drag of a stopped propeller vs. freewheeling propeller vs. windmilling propeller turning and engine. At 17° pitch and at 75 mph, the windmilling propeller produced 29% more drag than a stopped one (but freewheeling produced 36% less drag, which makes sense). At 100mph the same relationship holds, but the windmilling penalty is only 6% rather than 29%. I suspect if they continued to higher speeds, windmilling would beat stopped. This is all going to vary with propeller pitch, specific airplane and engine characteristics, etc. The only real way to know would be to try it both ways on a specific airplane. But this raises the whole question of whether it's a good idea to stop a running engine on a single engine plane. Some people have no problem, others have a valid argument against it!
Yes but a stall prop moving in the air and not spinning makes less drag as its stalled once an airfoil stalls the drag falls off drastically.
Same applies for a stalled wing makes less drag then same wing flying at its max speed
@@FreePilotTraining
I had a small polystyrene airplane as a kid, came with a bag of chips. There was also a small prop with it. No motor. I tested out it flew better with the prop free spinning( no load of an engine) instead of an equal load without prop. It always intrigued me, later flew model RC airplanes. Home build 80’s
In my previous life, I was a sailor. On my last ship if we were only running on one engine, once we were above a set speed, we had to free wheel the shaft to reduce drag. We had controllable pitch and would adjust the pitch to maintain the slowest shaft speed we could above 65 rpm (the minimum speed for proper lubrication, on that ship). Below 8 knots it was too hard to keep that shaft spinning and we would pitch it out to stop it.
Once again…you answered all my questions in prep for check ride! I will be so over prepared and that is exactly what I want.
Awesome!
Super Incredible Video, and although a bit long, I will be watching it again. You can never invest enough into surviving an emergency in this wonderful 'sport'. I do hope more pilots practice this scenario with the seriousness and attention it deserves. (amateur pilot here)
Thank you! I know it’s long, but I wanted a one stop shop for people looking for information
Thanks
You’re welcome! I really appreciate the Super Thanks!
@@FreePilotTraining I enjoyed your video. I literally just started my PPL journey. So need all the help to get things right first time, and save money and time. So you thank you. I appreciate your video
I had an engine failure on take off in a 1959 C-150 I had been flying for about 1000 hours over 4 years. I knew this airplanes slow flight characteristics as I used the aircraft for photography and surveys.
It was cold that morning, 23 degrees f. With a direct crosswind. The preflight and startup were normal. Taxi and run up seemed normal except for a very slight drop in rpm on the carb heat. Take off was always brisk and a cold day ROC of about 700 FPM came rapidly with a control input to maintenance runway heading was held. At about 350' indicated and past half the 3200' runway the engine quit suddenly. No surge, no warning. Here's the headline: push the nose down and keep speed up the second the power goes out. In the seconds after engine failure I was reaching for carb heat astonished the thing quit. The airplane was nose high bleeding off airspeed at 300' . Only when I heard the stall horn did I snap the nose over. I was about 200 feet off the CL to the right side of the runway . The left wing was stalling as I was trying to squeeze a left turn to the safety area at the end of the runway. The plane was almost fully stalled but didn't have altitude enough to roll off and did lift her nose a bit. The left wing and nose contacted the two feet of crusty snow . I walked away from it. The stall horn saved me. Your comment about muscle memory is IMHO spot on. Fly on!
Thanks for the comment Frank! What a story!
Always plan ahead. Muscle memory checklists fly the air craft and communicate your problems
Extremely well put together vid! Good work. I taught my students to memorize the engine failure, engine fire, and electrical fire checklists then reference them when things are a little more under control. Gotta do memory items when they get to the airlines anyway so teach em early I say.
Thank you so much! Yes, I think that it’s best to start memorizing early!
Josh how can I get a hold of you? do you have an email or contact number? I'd like to talk to you about flight training.....Thanks@@FreePilotTraining
Your videos are just SO full of knowledge, LOVE IT! Wish you were close by to get some lessons in once in a while.
In my earlier years I flew Gliders, Sailplanes. If you have a low level cable break, you need to pitch down from 20 degrees nose up. My first practice engine failure in a Warrior I lifted myself and instructor of our seats, my pitch over was so rapid. He said most people are far too slow. He told me to slow down.
It depends on your current speed and the airplane you’re flying. If you have a ton of excess airspeed, you can also do something called a zoom climb to trade for a little altitude.
I'm a glider pilot too, but I think when you have an engine failure in a GA aircraft, you really don't need to pitch down as rapidly as in a glider after a cable break. During a winch launch, the glider pitches up to approximately 45 degrees, no GA aircraft climbs in such steep pitch angles. When the cable breaks at that attitude, the airspeed drops rapidly and the glider stalls within 1-2 seconds, if the pilot does not react. When the engine fails on a GA aircraft, you got way more time to react. At level flight, the airspeed would decrease gradually and the aircraft would pitch down on its own, if it's trimmed appropriately.
@lars7898 I, and my instructor found that out. Like you say it's maybe five degrees up to 5 degrees down.
Did a LOTOT yesterday on my BFR in my 1945 172 (0300 - 145 HP.) Added 6 seconds reaction time. Took me 600' to make the 180 deg. turn. However, IMO, just cause you make the turn doesn't mean you are going to make the runway so CFI recommended 1000' to attempt the impossible turn.
Good point. The worse the plane climbs. The farther you will be away from the runway as well. And light winds can make it even worse
In transport category multi-enginne aircraft, there are memory items mandated for each aircraft, so you're right. It would be even more critical in a single-engine aircraft
16:13 and 400ft is BEST case. you're flying in winter. and reaction time? i'd say 500ft or more to be safe.
Edit: i see you address some of this. but do Not forget higher DA conditions, unfavorable xwinds, and time to flare.
All of the first 50 or so landings I did were dead-stick. yes, I did my initial training on gliders.
Dead stick landings I can handle. I suggest all pilots do a few trips in gliders, you will definetely improve your landing skills.
It depends.
If you are in the cruise, the very first thing that you should do is trade some of your horizontal velocity for altitude. Pull back on the stick. Yes, you do this BEFORE anything else. Those couple of hundred extra feet could just save your bacon.
Edit: if you’re flying a single with a constant speed unit FULLY COARSEN your propeller to reduce induced drag if you think you won’t make that field. It WILL stretch your glide. Yes, I know your 172 doesn’t have one.
Very true. I’m a huge fan of the zoom climb. That’s one thing I forgot to talk about in this video. And yes, coarsening or feathering the prop makes a huge difference
@@FreePilotTraining
You are an honest man.
Thank you for these lessons.
yup. most aircraft i fly, I actually climb out at speeds Above best glide. Vy is going to naturally be faster than best glide, and even more so a higher speed climb, which I often do for better cooling during the climb out on a hot day.
Right. And that will stamp in your memory to pull back elevator when engine quits. Good to remember that.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 not at all. it's about being in control of your aircraft at all times, thus being aware of your condition and how to react accordingly.
If fast, pitch up slightly for best glide, if slow, pitch nose down promptly.
Really really really awesome video. Something that I think you could also touch on is the approach speed to landing. My chief pilot just taught me recently that you want to fly your Vg allllll the way till you are leveling off for the flare. With a prop not windmilling creating the spiraling slipstream (prop wash) over the elevator you are going to hit the ground HARD if you try to rotate at your normal approach speed. You lose a ton of elevator authority. He explained it much better than I did but hopefully you get what I’m trying to say.
Thank you! That’s a great point. It might be worth discussing in a future video! I really appreciate the idea!
On most general aviation aircraft, full nose up on the trim wheel is very close to the best glide speed. I like to test that in each new plane I fly, and of course have checklists with the correct v speeds readily accessible.
I’ve heard that! I’d love to make a short video on that
This is great knowledge
@@TheCmc22 try it!
Better try that at a good altitude… The math doesn’t work out
@@Timberns please explain the math, as stated above I’ve already confirmed it on many aircraft. Does your math say full up trim will fly slower than best glide or faster?
Hi. Thanks for this video. Very instructive.
I've been talking a lot with my instructor about the impossible turn recently, and in my eyes the problem with your calculation is that you didn't really factor in the distance from the airport while climbing. In addition your take-off weight is relevant.
In my opinion an impossible turn while on the departure leg can only work if you have a reasonably long runway - basically a runway that is so long, that you're still over it when you reach 400 ft AGL. My home airfield only has an 1800ft grass runway. When I reach 400ft AGL I'm already half a mile or so from the threshold. AND if I were flying at MTOW I would be even farther away because my climb speed would be lower. So no matter if I'm 400ft or 1000ft AGL, I will not make it back to the airfield as long as I'm still on the departure leg, because with each foot I climb I get farther away from the runway.
Now if the engine quits on crosswind while I'm already close to pattern altitude, the thing is different, because
1. I don't have to turn the full 180° anymore and lose less altitude in the turn
2. I can cut across directly to the runway and will fly a shorter distance back, than I did flying out.
The third point I would need some advice: glide speed.
As far as I know the best glide speed in the POH is calculated for MTOW, right? So if I were alone in the plane with tanks only half full, my best glide speed should be lower than the one in the POH, since I would need less speed to stay aloft, or am I on the wrong track here?
You are correct. Technically, you would need to figure your distance from the runway, but you are never going to know that. That takes a tremendous amount of work for something that may or may not ever happen. That’s why I didn’t discuss it.
I passed my Checkride today because of you. Appreciate all the great work you do, please keep it up. (I’d love to see an instrument series) I’ll definitely be ordering some merchandise soon
Thanks Lukas! That means the world to get comments like this! Congratulations on the huge milestone!
Great video! FYI 24:49 M'aider is pronounced mayday
Thanks! Guess I need to learn French lol
I haven't maintained my ratings, but since living in Nebraska one of the best pieces of advice on engine out landings was to land the same direction the corn rows run!
Lol. I’ve never heard that!
I can really appreciate the clarity this gentlemen explains everything
Thanks!
I love your videos. I just started flying after a 38 year absence. So many more resources available online today not to mention simulators like X-Plane. PS check the spelling of “mixture” :-). Thank you for the lessons
Thanks! Oops
@10:00 My CFI had me go below tree level before going around!
Love it. I think that’s good training
@@FreePilotTraining True! And it shows you the correct "picture" of a grass field or corn field, how to look for cables (actually the poles), and topography (looking at shadows around rocks, holes, and irrigation channels, etc.).
In a different vein, in New Zealand I was expected to demonstrate "scud running" competence by following a braided river channel below 50' AGL!
If you decide to attempt the impossible turn you should consider the crosswind. If there is any crosswind you should make the turn into the wind. This will keep you closer to the runway. Turning to the downwind side will take you further away and might make the turn impossible without more altitude. The only reason I can think of to not do this is if there was a parallel runway in use that posed a threat if you were to get too close.
That is an excellent point! Thanks for the comment
I teach the checklist memorization too. At both flight schools I was at we did the same. we even made custom checklists for the flight schools. And everything was black and white, but all memorization parts of the checklists had red borders around them. We tested students on the memorized portions of the checklists, and made them recite them at random any time we liked.
part of this came from my time in helicopters, where you need both hands to fly and don't have time in emergencies to look at your checklists. so for helicopters we actually memorized all of the procedures/checklists, as well as most of the POH, as you weren't going to be consulting them in flight when you may only have less than 10sec to land.
I do this with my own aircraft too. I create far superior custom checklists that are 10x better than any provided for the aircraft I fly, and have them on a kneeboard (I Never fly without a kneeboard, another helicopter habit).
That’s exactly what I do. I bold font the items that I want my students to commit to memory. The Air Force calls it bold face. That’s cool that you are doing it too! Someday, I’ll learn to fly egg beaters
Rhodesian/Zimbabwean pilots and from my experience South African pilots, learn vital actions and procedures by memorizing mnemonics such as: Too Many Pilots Forget How, Hasell and Bumpff etc.
In all my time flying in Africa I never ever saw a printed checklist. Yet, here I am.
A stopped or low power producing (carb ice...) engine - that carb heat needs to come on right away - same time as you are controlling the attitude and looking for your spot. For a non-injected engine don't wait - get that carb heat on now!
Great point! In reality you can do Airspeed, Best Landing Spot and Carb Heat at the same time
Josh,
Thank you for yet another great content! I really like the fact that you incorporated your military training in this video! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
You’re welcome! I’ll keep that in mind in my future videos!
4:52 A windmilling propeller produces a higher drag coefficient than a stopped prop. Your glide distance increases when your propeller is stopped, not when the propeller is windmilling. Cessna gives you the worst-case glide ratio under the assumption that you do not try to forcibly stop your prop from windmilling
I’ve heard both. It might be worth testing out in a future video
@@FreePilotTraining Actually I just had a look into it (should've done so before commenting). The drag coefficient of a windmilling prop depends greatly on its blade angle. The stationary prop has a much shallower drag curve throughout its blade angles. At very high blade angles, the windmilling prop can potentially produce less drag than a stationary one. However, a low-blade-angle, windmilling propeller does produce a tremendous amount of drag, far more than a stationary prop of its same angle. In the case of the C172, it would depend on its blade angle (of which I can't seem to find on the internet).
Source:
www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/00-80T-80.pdf
page 149, figure 2.19
@@FreePilotTraining I tried replying once, but it didn't post for some reason. Anyway, I had a look into it, which I should've done before posting. A windmilling propeller at a low blade angle will produce a tremendous amount of drag, much more than a stationary prop at the same pitch. However, as the blade pitch increases, the stationary prop'a drag curve remains shallow, while the windmilling prop's curve drops off sharply. At high blade angles, a windmilling prop CAN potentially produce less drag than a stopped prop. For the 172, it would depend on the blade angle (of which I am unable to find online).
Source:
www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/00-80T-80.pdf
page 149, figure 2.19
Very good video, but a couple of observations.
1.) if an engine failure and you are on Both try Left and Right individually, it could be a switch problem where only both is effected! If you go to Left or Right, you may get your engine back.. Slightly less power, but not by much (Lower Power, is better than No Power)!
2.) Keep in mind that different planes handle different ways. For example, mine that I am primary training has Fuel Injection (No Prime) an is Complex with a Constant speed prop. Added steps to the checklist.
I subscribed to your channel!
Excellent points! Thank you so much and thanks for the sub!
I just want to thank you guys for all the different scenarios you put out there for us guys that are learning and women thanks again
You’re welcome!
Why I got you online what’s the procedures. how do I know when I’m ready to take the written test I live in a country in California my airport has about 10 hangers old old. i’m 49 years old my grandfather and father both the flu and they’re both deceased now so I’m just starting to figure it out I’m trying to get my sports pilot license to start.I think I’m on episode 15 of yours so I’m gonna take notes. on every episode due to a partially dyslexic well these videos really help me because I learned by site mostly is there any information that you can give me to start this journey kind of the quickest way to get my license started to seal the deal. I kind of want to buy. airplane now due to the prices are rising. and then to get my license I have to have so many hours a flight time with an instructor on the sports part I don’t know really what you need I’m kind of lost. if you can can you help me for me from a to Z. .I have an old crop duster pilot out here maybe I could talk to him about gathering of hours when the time is needed like I said I don’t know what I’m getting into any information super valuable to me thank you love your videos you explain very well.
This is a very good video and thank you for making it. I believe there is one error early on however. A windmilling prop causes MORE drag than a stationary prop, and therefore your glide distance is actually longer if the prop stops completely.
Thanks! I’m not convinced that a windmilling prop creates more drag. I’ve heard that, but I have a theory that it doesn’t. It may be worth a video. What do you think?
@@FreePilotTraining Definitely worth a video I think. However I'm not sure how the result would influence my decision making in such an emergency. It's probably not feasible (safe?) for most pilots to evaluate the respective glide performance on their own aircraft, although I do believe many years ago it was common practice for instructors to teach forced landings with an actual "dead stick"! Also worth considering: What if you have a constant speed prop on your aircraft? Does one set high or low RPM? (I suspect low...).
A quick search around the internet found varying opinions and little proof either way. One thing I did note was that several pilots attempted to "stop the prop" themselves by reducing airspeed as much as possible before resuming best glide, in the process of which they lost a lot of time and altitude, both of which you want more of, not less!
Man you and seth lake are awesome love the videos. Preparing for my ppl checkride thanks a ton will
Update when i get satisfactory 😉 ( gotta be confident am i right)
Thanks! Someday I’ll work with him again! He’s good
You never said you were unlatching the doors when you implemented your scenario...now you're stuck in the metal coffin under the snow...
RIP free pilot training
Lol. Guess I’m crawling out the baggage door
Thank you for this!!!! I just sent to my instructor and asked if we could do this soon....🙌🙌
You’re welcome! Let me know what he says!
@@FreePilotTraining😄😄I'm excited to say , I'll let you know what "she" says!! 😄👍🙌
I'm watching this during my emergency failure. Thanks guys
You’re welcome
Just excellent, thank you!
Thanks!
Great video. I haven't got to this point in my training but now I have a good idea of what to expect and the discussion to have with my instructor.
Thanks! Let me know how it goes
Windmilling prop produces tons less drag than "frozen" one? That is what I said to my instructor and he told me to do some resarch as he was confident that I was wrong. Is there any chance we can get a brief explanation of this phenomena?
This is something that might be worth experimenting with. I’ve read articles on both positions. For now, I still believe what I said in the video.
Great video Josh! Hope all is well brother!!
Thanks man! Everything is good! We’ve been super busy building a house up here. I just got put on full time orders so it’s even more crazier now!
Great stuff as always. I’ve got my check ride coming up soon and this is a great reminder.
Thanks! Let me know how that goes!
Not sure if I heard…ELT- ON & cockpit door unlatched. Excellent training, thanks for posting 😊
I did forget to mention the door on my approach, but we don’t have an ELT switch in that plane
@@FreePilotTraining thanks for the follow up.
Wow excellent!!!
Thanks!
Excellent video Josh. Always good to keep those emergency procedures well practiced. Looks like you are getting some good cold weather flying in up there. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friend 🇺🇸🛩️
Thanks Kevin! Yep, it’s been pretty chilly up here, but you’ve guys have had it bad too it seems!
@@FreePilotTraining that we have. Snow last week with below 0 temps and now freezing rain coming in tonight and tomorrow. I just hope the weather is decent for my checkride. It's so close, and I'm so nervous. Lol
Great review and good checklist recommendations. Excellent instructing. Thanks.
Thank you!
Best channel on TH-cam
Thanks!
So funny when I first started watching the video I thought man these guys are awfully calm and cool and collected for having just lost an engine lol!
😂 I was hoping someone would get that impression
A windmilling propeller creates more drag than frozen prop so you would glide further with a stuck prop, even fixed pitch where you can't feather it.
I’ve heard both. Might be worth testing in a future video
14:08 impossible turn at 400 agl is crazzzyyyyy
Video?
Vglide is with windmilling prop unless manual says the contrary. Most props stop at around 60 knots, That is under the Vglide for most 4 seaters. Dont try to stop the prop except on 2 seats or less LSA's with Vglide 60 knots or less. The wings drag will be increased by trying to stop the prop on most 4-6 place airplanes and Vglide distance be cut. Also you are closer to the 3o bank stalling speed and many have stalled turning final with stopped prop. Most LSA's can, but most 4 seaters cant turn safely with stopped prop at 60 knots.
Back in the 1960s Cessna did an experiment and determined that a "stopped prop" would add approximately 20% more distance to the glide. A windmilling prop still caused drag. Cessna's chart is based on a windmilling propeller. They didn't provide one for a stopped propeller. So, if you know that your engine is really dead, and there is no chance it can be restarted, (fuel exhaustion) consider stopping the propeller. It could be the difference in reaching the emergency landing place. How to do that? Just pitch up a little until it stops, it won't take long.
Also, my chief pilot was a P-51 pilot during WWII. He taught me that should the engine quit at altitude, to immediately steeply bank to the left and to the right and look straight down. Sometimes the best place to land might be right below you. Then you can slow down to an airspeed slower than the best glide, that is, the maximum endurance airspeed. This airspeed is slightly slower than the best glide and will keep you aloft for a longer time. This may buy you some time to determine to problem just in case there is a chance for a restart.
That’s super interesting. I’m very surprised that the windmilling prop decreases the glide distance. Thanks for the comment!
What's more drag-producing, a Cessna with a spinning prop, or one with no propeller? Assuming no thrust is being produced, of course. A stopped prop is the closest you will come to a no-propeller condition. A spinning prop with no power produces mostly drag, it might even be a stalled wing as it free spins.@@FreePilotTraining
Could you make a video with tips for emergencies in the city? I haven't seen many videos on this topic and think it would be a great help
That’s a great idea. Let me think about how I could make a video on that
@@FreePilotTraining Awesome, Thanks! I love your videos, they were a huge help to me
Can you clarify on saying that a stopped prop will create more drag and thus have a lesser glide distance than a windmilling prop? I was taught the opposite.
Edit: This is of course talking about a fixed pitch prop, like the 172
I have heard both, I need to test this and see which one is true. Perhaps a video is in order
One of the best I've seen around
Thanks Dan!
Very interesting as usual. This time, most of it is part of basic PPL training, but it's always good to listen again. That said, you gave some additional personal information like you always do, which is great. Speaking of the famous U-turn, I would try to do it on the side where the wind is coming preferably. Of course we should already be into the wind on takeoff, but I'd guess that 95% of the time there is a crosswind component, so tacking in that direction will keep the airplane closer to the runway. What do you think?
Thank you so much! Excellent point!
Any chance you could do an engine fire in flight and engine fire during start video?
I definitely will at some point. I’m just extremely busy for the next couple months. Hopefully I can really start pushing out more content after things slow down for me
You said stuck propeller creates more drag than windmilling. Could you confirm that? I thought that windmilling prop creates more drag. I also heard about technique to reduce airspeed first to stop the prop spinning and then slowly increase airspeed. If prop didn’t start to spinning again, you would be able to glide further away (or longer time - I don’t remember).
I’ve received mixed views on this. In my opinion, the prop is at a lower AoA when spinning. Yes, the wind turns the engine, but the wind pushes directly against the prop in a frozen example. Might be worth further research
I teach road landings. but NOT with powerlines. tight roads with parallel lines are often too tight for the wingspan (I actually make students tell me the airplane wingspan and how wide the given road is). And then there are perpendicular crossing powerlines. but many roads have no powerlines. And where I live, many places it's either dense trees or a country road, no fields at all. You take the road if you can. And when their are fields, there are hazards there too. i come from a farming family, and I can tell you that certain fields can be as bad as trees if you land in them wrong. Some fields look great form 2000ft, but at 100ft you're seeing your life flash before your eyes. Another reason I take roads if I can, as the odds of success are higher. pilots have an easier time thinking of a road as a runway than an abstract field of unknown size and that is often very short (most fields will be less than 1mile long in its longest direction not counting trees on either end that shorten your usable distance, meaning less than 5000ft at most, much too often it might be closer to 2000ft).
I would add "trim for best glide" to start.
Yes! Trim is your friend!
Could you explain the difference between best glide speed and minimum sink speed? Under what practical circumstances shall minimum sink speed be used?
Best glide allows you to glide the farthest distance while minimum sink keep you in the air for the longest time possible. Bold method has a great article on the subject: www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-to-handle-a-power-off-landing-following-an-engine-failure-best-glide-or-minimum-sink-how-to-manage-it/#:~:text=Minimum%20sink%20is%20always%20slower,significantly%20impact%20your%20glide%20range.
@@FreePilotTraining, thank you very much!! The article is very helpful.
Wayne Detwiler's comment "There is another way to determine minimum sink. It's the same speed as maximum endurance and is equal to your best glide speed divided by 1.316, Carson's nimber. It would be good to know this number for your plane if you have a landing site in reach and need time to sort things out. OBTW, best glide times 1.316 equals your best economy in gph per knot of airspeed." is also very informative (if he is correct). use his method, if the best glide speed is 100 knots, then the minimum sink speed will be only 76 knots.
I think a windmilling prop creates more drag than a stuck prop, even if it’s fixed pitch?
I’m hearing mixed reviews. Might be worth researching
what about L/D + half head wing to increase distance, and 180 turn in 45 bank (best time ratio)?
Ooh. I’ve never heard of L/D + half head wind. Might be worth comparing in a future video… thanks for the comment!
@FreePilotTraining pozdrowienia z Polski
Great video
Thank you!
to be serious this was a very good educational video and engine quits 1. I plan a will my flight sim computer and flight tools go to Free Pilot . 2 everything else goes to a good will . 3. money wellll to free pilot training to buy a better video card. and that will cover some of it due to the high cost of video cards lol
I wonder if a lawyer would take this comment as a legal will. 😆 just kidding, I do greatly appreciate that!
@@FreePilotTraining lol I do watchall of your videos to help me stay prfoficiant and current though being sim but can use these lessons to practice just the same.
2:45 whats up with the carb heat?
Carb heat should be applied immediately. If ice is the cause, there might not be sufficient engine heat if you dilly-dally looking for a spot to land before applying carb heat. Also, if induction ice is the cause, carb heat will supply an alternate source of air to the engine.
I think my rod is a little bent so it’s kinda stiff
Wait til you get to be my age. @@FreePilotTraining
Regarding your example calculation of 700ft required to successfully perform an "impossible turn," do you have an estimate of how much additional height you should probably require to take into account the difference between an idling engine (ie. the observed altitude loss when practising the maneuver with an engine still generating a small amount of thrust) vs. a dead engine (ie. the actual altitude loss you'd encounter in a real engine-out emergency). Would adding an extra 50-100ft account for this small difference, or could it be more significant than that? Same question for a stuck prop emergency too I guess, as you mentioned it would result in even greater drag.
Great question! I honestly don’t know what the difference would be in an idling engine and a dead engine. I’m sure there’s a slight difference
Thanks for another great video!!
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!
super nice video for great back to basics! thanks! wish you were here in florida! lol
Thanks David! Maybe I’ll make it down to Sun and Fun someday
Suppose you are climbing out in your Cessna 172, and at 500ft AGL, the engine not only quits, but locks up, and the prop isn't turning (engine torque = 0). If you stall the plane, will it roll, or will the nose pitch straight down? Great video, thanks for posting!
That’s a great question! The left turning tendencies would definitely be reduced
If you stall at 500' AGL because you panicked after the engine quit, you probably also panicked and left your right foot on the rudder.
@@FreePilotTraining Lately, I've spent some time researching accidents, and found a significant number that involved low altitude stalls, wherein the plane rolled upside down, presumably from the engine torque. If a pilot heard the stall warning and instinctively applied full throttle, the condition could easily go from manageable to complete loss of control (due to the instant increase in engine torque). Id love to see a video on this topic. Thanks!
Is going around 100ft really going to give you that much better training than 500ft? Does the benefit outweigh that risk? I ask that because the last time we did engine out drills in a 5 year old Cessna 172 the engine ran very rough upon applying full power (to the point that we considered our practice engine out might be a real one), probably from prolonged gliding at idle. During commercial training you are taught to clear the engine during steep spirals to prevent fouling or excessive engine cooling- and that needs to be done at any time you are in a prolonged idle such as gliding down from 3K.
Yes it is. Most students can’t tell whether or not they could hit a “spot” from 500’. It’s never a bad idea to clear the engine
thanks for the very informative and useful video as usual. Would you be so nice to provide details on techniques on how to approach/use a best spot to land? My understand is that I should cross the landing spot at 1000ft AGL and then start downwind, base and final. But I struggle to identify this spot when flying "high" as I just see fields (so potentially suitable landing spots) that are far from the plane and I'm unable to approach them being above the right spot at the right altitude. (I hope my question was clear). tnx
Ok, I can almost guarantee you that your instructor is an old military pilot teaching you high and low key maneuvering. You do not need to know that. Does it work? Yes, but I’m tired of instructors teaching this stuff to new students. It’s extra stuff that makes it more difficult to pass the checkride. My advice is that if you want to stick with this instructor, always error on the side of being a little high during the maneuver and then you can use every tool available to get yourself down to the runway. I’ll think about how I could tackle a video
Don't worry...I watched a free pilot training video. I'll try that with the DPE on my checkride. You need a shirt or something with that on it!
😂 that would be a good one
We practise our students to recite the emergency checklist by heart whenever we ask them to, e.g. during taxi or during magneto checks.
That’s great. It works
Would it be a good idea to teach the co-pilot (in case it's not a real pilot) how to start the engine so in case of engine failure he can try to restart it?
It definitely wouldn’t hurt!
the thing I struggle with is definitely picking a landing spot when doing a PFL
In the beginning, I’d error on being too close rather than too far
can you change your intended field on the checkride?
I wouldn’t if you can help it
Watch your speed, lower the nose, fly straight, find a field or open area, land gear up, insurance co. owns it now, you go home for dinner.
Oh, and take some AQP training while you watch Dan Gryder Probable Cause. Happy Flyin'.
So true!
Panic? How hard is it to get one of those parachutes?
Is there any difference between an engine at idle speed (training) versus an engine off with a windmilling propeller? I’m a former LEO and I understand training isn’t always a real life scenario but as close as we can get.
Yes there is. If you read the comments, there are quite a few different opinions on that topic. It seems like I need to make a video at some point
@@FreePilotTraining Yes. I remember you mentioned a non spinning prop can create drag versus a windmilling prop. I was just curious of the difference in best glide of a prop spinning at idle speed. It might be negligible for all I know. I’ve just begun to look into a private pilot journey. I’ve been doing all the research I can before I get into it. I do enjoy your videos and the comedy inserted. Keep it up!
as a certified pilot who has flown decades the smartest and best thing to do if your engine fails at any altitude is just jam your yoke all the way forward, and put thrust to toga, also count to one thousand while maintaining perfect eye contact with your dead cousin, you will rejoin him shortly if this advice is followed.
😆
I need to get back in the air!!!
I know the feeling!
I love the 172H. 0300, great engine. But a stuck prop makes your 172 glide better, not worse. Believe me, I tried. Why? A turning prop is like a big wooden disk in front of you, because a turning prop means a turning engine with a lot of internal resistance. I’m pretty confident this applies to all planes with an internal combustion engine. Other than that, good item. And train this situation for real. Not on a cold day - shock cooling is never a good idea, check your poh - but do stop your engine, if needed by gradually pulling up to stall speed. And prepare your aircraft for a restart: carb heat in and mixture full rich. Have fun!
Great input! Thank you!
I thought i learned somewhere a wind milling propeller produces more drag than a static propeller, as the energy is spent cranking the engine.
This is a good question. Might be worth testing. Turning the engine does nothing to drag. But a stopped propeller directly apposes forward movement
18:00 you had me at C4, lolll
😆 I thought that was appropriate
Minor issue but you only said MAYDAY twice during your actual practice near the end of the video. Say it 3 times in the hope that your radio is modulating at full power and at least one gets through to someone who might hear your call.
To prevent most engine failures one must remain grounded
Lol
Aims community College won't let me graduate without memorizing the first like 5 steps to all emergency procedures. After this vid, I totally respect that requirement
Seems like a lot, but I think it’s smart that they do that!
I’ve done this on sim and not that easy o ur goal was to loose not more then 300ft to 400 that’s exactly what you said … we tuned directly 1000 ft after take off at times 600
It’s a little easier in the plane because you can see everything better
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Night time procedure. When you start to lose altitude turn on landing light and if you don't like what you see turn landing light off.
😂
Land? How about trying to restart that engine first?
Yes. IF you have time