Install Radiant Heat Under Wood Floor 24 Inches OC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- www.AsktheBuild... founder, Tim Carter, shows the complex method of looping Uponor hePEX tubing in between framing that's 24 inches on center. SEE IMPORTANT LINK NEXT: Three heat transfer plates are in each truss bay, not two. Tim offers PHONE COACHING should you need help: shop.askthebui...
The real question is how are you planning on insulating underneath the Trusses.
That question was answered in a very interesting story here: www.askthebuilder.com/insulation-installation/
One of your best videos in a long time. My next home will have radiant floor heating in it. A friend recently acquired a 7,000sq.ft. home in a colder area of Michigan (it was vacant for 5 years, and the people just offloaded it for dirt cheap). It has radiant floor heating EVERYWHERE (yes, including the garage, basement, and driveway). He told me that it costs him about the same to heat that massive "cottage" as it does to heat his much smaller 2400 sq.ft. home that has gas forced air. The cottage was MUCH MUCH more comfortable as well...I wish they would just make radiant floor heating "standard". LOL
REALLY good vid, Tim. It's one thing to be willing to work hard. It's another thing to know what you're doing. But... to then be able to explain it so well as you're doing it? Priceless! LOL Sure beats watching The Bachelorette! LOL
I love the way you immediately in the video got right to explanation and showing how to do something instead of like some videos blah, blah, blah lol. Really good video and explanation!
You're welcome. I get lots of comments that say the opposite on some of my videos. The viewers think I talk too much. I like to explain things in detail and tell you what happens if you DON'T do this or that. Check out the *THANKS* text link under each of my videos.
From Uponor literature "When possible, start with the
warmest water on the exterior
walls and progress toward the
interior of the room. The direction
of the panels in the layout dictate
the tubing runs."
True, but in a normal house if the floor joists are all parallel in the entire structure, you only have two places to pull this off. Those two exterior walls that run parallel with the floor joists.
I've used that in 2 different homes one under with 16 oc ijoists the other on top with gypcrete, i fought like heck on the i jiosts one but had issues with drywall cracking on the gypcrete, the floor trsses make all the difference. Thanks for sharing this vid.
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Wow, that's a lot of wood! Great video Tim!
TNX! Yes, we use LOTS of wood here in the USA. We've got SO MUCH of it! The floor trusses are simply amazing to work with. They save so much labor running pipes and cables.
It is! But we have SO MUCH wood here in the USA forests. For every tree cut down, the lumber companies plant five. And our neighbor to the north, Canada, has abundant forests where they do a great job of growing their wood CROP!
I think its importance to Note that with radiant floor heat, the flooring application above should not be carpeted or have vapor barrior underlayment, as it might not hat as well as intended. I also think I would use this in New contruction or a full renovation, as its importance that the space is well insulated to make this app. Very effective.
You're correct about INSULATION. Read this column that was written about this installation in the video. It should really open your eyes: www.askthebuilder.com/insulation-installation/
I can see doing this in a retrofit with floor access only from below. But in new construction, with floor trusses, why run the tubing under the subfloor? Much more difficult and those Uponor transfer plates are crazy expensive. Many options exist for installing the tubing above subfloor, where heating will be much more efficient.
Mike, can you provide some independent data from a trusted source to back up your claim: "Many options exist for installing the tubing above subfloor, where heating will be much more efficient." Or, is that just your opinion?
@@askthebuilder Not just my opinion, though as builders we should form opinions based on empirical evidence re: what we've seen work well or not, then be open to change based on available evidence. It's generally accepted best practice among the most reputable builders and radiant installers in my area: 1. common sense tells you as an installer that tube installation is significantly easier above the subfloor as opposed to drilling every joist, working overhead, working around framing obstacles, zoning when basement rooms don't align with upstairs rooms, tight bends/kinks with the hepex, etc. Don't think you need independent data to imagine all the labor savings and improved layout options when installing above subfloor? 2. all things equal, the physical laws of thermodynamics favor not putting a poorly conductive wood subfloor between your heat delivery source (the tubes and plates) and the heated space. Installing below subfloor will ALWAYS require sending supply water from the boiler at a higher temperature to deliver the same heat level above, or required the boiler to cycle more. This is not only more expensive on an ongoing basis; if hot enough this condition will prevent a condensing boiler from operating in it's highest efficiency range. 3. above floor eliminates the need for special foil-faced reflective sheeting below the tubing/above the joist insulation. Of course need to insulate the joists below with either system.
Don't get me wrong, or feel attacked...I'm currently doing a "staple-up" installation right now, with hepex and aluminum transfer plates. It's our best available option due to available below-floor access and an existing finished living space above. But it's incredibly slow and expensive, and will be inferior to an above-floor installation when complete. You work with what you have.
My whole point is: if you have new construction, why not take advantage of your ability to lay out and install the delivery system most efficiently, and to deliver the heat in the most efficient and comfortable manner? My choice would be tubing embedded in lightweight concrete if engineering allows, or Quik-Trac panels if the framing was not engineered to take the weight. I would personally avoid Gyp-Crete even though it is fast and cost-effective, but that's purely my opinion. I've never personally seen it fail but have heard horror stories and thusly question its durability. Don't want the actual evidence to occur on one of my projects.
great video, helped me to see how tp install the heating tubes correctly. thanks
Glad it helped. I offer phone coaching should you need it: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
This might be the best video on this topic I've seen.
On the long return run would it be wise to heat syncs, just to extract all the heat possible? Assuming that run is a hallway or other room with some foot traffic?
The entire loop is delivering heat to the house - even the long return run. Always remember heat travels to cold. Thus if the water in the return leg is now down to say 90 F and the floor above is 82 F, the heat from the return loop is sucked into the floor until such time as the loop dives down to the return manifold in the boiler room.
tim i love your common sense videos. correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the belief that you run the hottest water to the coldest place first that being the outer wall of the house as more heat would be need there and less heat would be needed nearer the center of the house. as you have described it the highest water temp will go to the more centered part of the house and the coldest water will go to the perimeter. being as i am from central Florida feel free to correct me as we don't use much heat down here and would love to figure a way to send it to those needing it up north. thanks, jim in central florida.
Read the installation manual from Uponor to discover the exact way it should be done. That's what I did.
thanks for setting it straight
Mr j.r.s
Wondering what was the max length of each pex run. 200'. ???? Thanks, Rad
Read the Uponor Radiant Heat manual. You don't want to exceed 300 feet per loop. The sweet spot is 215-235 feet. You can also use 3/8-inch tubing. It works just as well as 1/2-inch and is easier to work with. That said, you need to be sure to use the correct recirc pump with 3/8" because of the extra friction. It's all covered in the Uponor instruction manual.
Nice job, but I would've ran my supply to the cavity next to the exterior wall first. Of course, you could always simply relabel your return as the supply.
That's exactly right. You want the hot water to start flowing NOT parallel with an exterior wall. That last length of the loop immediately adjacent to an exterior wall should be the *return* going back to the boiler to get reheated. I appreciate your comment. It's a keeper.
Awesome video!
TNX. It was somewhat fun to make. Let's hope it helps others faced with the situation.
Great tips Tim thank you
What's the thickness of the subfloor?
Is it 2 layer of 5/8 plywood?
Thanks in advance!
3/4-inch Advantech
@@askthebuilder thanks a lot!
What advantages does this water-based under-floor heating system have over electrical in-floor heating?
Electric resistance heat is the most expensive per BTU. Gas is the cheapest.
Read all about the advantages of water over electric on my website. Go here: Get unlimited FREE tips like this each week by subscribing to my newsletter at www.AsktheBuilder.com
Good video
Just installed a $50K ($42K + 20% to GC) hydronic Ultra Fin and Runtal radiator system to my house in San Francisco.
My gas bill has doubled from my old forced air heater.
My house is so cold I have to wrap myself in an afghan to watch TV and I wear a down jacket in my office if I'm on my computer. My floor is warm and small rooms are warm (bathrooms and a 10 X 10 bedroom).
After about 6 months had a leak in my garage - nail from hardwood floor. GC still haven't replaced the ceiling that got wet.
My newly refinished hardwood floors cracked. (GC didn't run heat at all before refinishing AND some of the old floors had water damage which he knew about) GC's hardwood guy said even if the floors warm up he cannot guarantee his work on radiant heat.
The installer didn't know a thing about Runtals - he initially hooked the towel warmers up to the floor system. I moved in in April and right away I noticed the towel warmers didn't come on as the floor heat was only on for an hour at 5:30 am.
I made him hook downstairs bathroom towel warmer up to the upstairs living room Runtal radiators thermostat so at least I can close the upstairs radiators, crank up the thermostat and warm my towels. (Now that is is cold I'm leaving the bathroom door open in the master so the 48" towel warmer can "boost" the floor heat in the bedroom)
I demanded that he install two small radiators in my TV room and my office (one I decided I didn't need for my living room, the other was a mistake - he ordered the wrong color) so I have heat the three months of the year it gets down to 50 degrees in San Francisco. Still waiting - last time he was here he hooked up on Runtal in my living room and the towel warmer in the upstairs bathroom. The towel warmer is also hooked up to the floor system and need to be redone. Oh, he isn't taking sheetrock off the basement ceiling to run the new tubing - just stringing it across the ceiling.
Initially I wanted just Runtal radiators but the heating contractor and my GC talked me out of it:
"Sure you can combine floor and Runtals - no problem!" (you shouldn't - they run at different PSI)
"Never had a problem with hardwood floors." The GC's hardwood guy was the first to say "I can't guarantee my work with radiant"
"With Ultra Fin you don't have cold spots." Yes you do. It doesn't generate enough heat to heat a 1,250 sq ft house - IN SAN FRANCISCO!
Maybe, in theory, if designed and installed correctly, Ultra Fin can heat your house in winter and not jack up your gas bill. Maybe.
This is simple physics. Your house has a given heat loss in Btus per hour. There's no reason why your bill should go up if you're introducing the same amount of Btus per hour with the new system as the old one.
It seems like the loops go from the middle track to the last track every other bay. Why
Because that's the way we did it.
@@askthebuilder so thats just the way you felt like doing it ir is that what uponor recommended ?
Uponor didn't have instructions on how to do it with a 24-inch on-center application. I figured out how to do it myself so the tubing doesn't kink and the loop works as is required.
Looks good but I think I’d rather put the hottest loop to the outside wall and come back towards the the boiler while it cools because your biggest heat loss is going to be at the outside wall, but good work.
TNX. What do you think the temperature difference is in the PEX between what you see in the video and your method? I'm talking about that joist bay on the outside wall. Would you think the difference might be 0.3 F? If that? What's more it's all about the overall Btus in the house/floor and what's happening as the cold exterior walls suck it from the house, right?
Hi There
I will be starting to build a home in a month and am looking at installing in floor heating between joists but am wondering how I am going to install my hardwood floor on top later as the staples would hit the water lines is there a way to suspend the heating tubes so they are not tight to the subfloor allowing room for staples. I know they suggest gluing the hardwood down but wood prefer to staple
Thanks
Les
The tubes must contact the subfloor. You use fasteners that don't penetrate into the tubes. I'm happy to discuss it with you: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
What manufacture makes those Aluminum Pex Plates please??? And thank you !!!
You get them right here. Match the plate with the PEX tubing: amzn.to/3FROwbZ
@@askthebuilder Thank you and Merry Christmas!!!
I'm building a log home in a cold climate with a crawl space ICF foundation , would you consider this as a heating option along with my wood stove? Thanks
Yes, absolutely. If you want to do a deep dive and have me coach you, I offer this service: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
Question how this under wood floor heating works when the house has ceramic tiles
It works fantastic. The floor above my head was ALL ceramic tile - both floor of the house. The tile is TOASTY warm.
Is the system working well and is it as efficient as you had hoped? I am considering a similar system for my new build next spring.
You bet it's working well! There's lots to know about how to do it right. I offer phone coaching if you need it: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
Hey, I can't find a posted video about the final deck stain comparison. I have looked through 7 years of your videos. Can you tell me where to find the final results? Or a new ranking of stains?
My testing results are here for FREE: shop.askthebuilder.com/deck-stain-test-results/
Interesting... I'm curious to know if you could also use this system to cool a house?
No. You need to cool with forced air to remove the humidity from the air.
Looks good.
TNX To get unlimited free tips each week like this, be sure to sign up for my FREE newsletter at www.AsktheBuilder.com
Question: Would a reflective barrier be installed next to reflect the heat up into the room above?
I'd never do that. You need to press the fiberglass insulation directly against the tubing to force the heat up, not down into the joist bay. You better go to my www.AsktheBuilder.com website and read all about *radiant barriers* and the *CRITICAL* thing you need to do to make them work.
Since the goal is to keep from having to make a tight turn couldn’t you go every other channel (like you did) but rather than making the one tight turn in each bay... just keep going every other channel until the end and then “return” doing the same thing coming back towards the manifold? Should be the same amount of tubing...never makes a tight turn and gets the hotter water distributed all the way across the zone quicker. Hope I explained this clearly.
Get out a roll of string and some thin pieces of wood and make a model. Demonstrate how you'd do it, but use a LONG piece of string just like you're working with a 1,000-foot roll of PEX like we have to do in the field.
I thought the same thing. Go through half the heat transfer plates on the way out, then hit the other half of the heat transfer plates on the return. Instead of having a straight return. Should have better heat distribution. This video is fantastic! But i think the floor near the manifold will be much warmer then the floor at the other end. Or is the room not big enough to notice heat loss over the course?
Can I ask are you just running it off your boiler so this would act just like a radiator ??
Yes. These are connected to this boiler: www.askthebuilder.com/installation-noritz-boiler/
How thick can the floor be for the heat to radiate through ?
It depends on the floor material. Far too much to type. I'm happy to discuss it over the phone: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
Where do you get those plates? I'm building a system that uses both gas water heater and solar
I get the Uponor brand. The plates MUST MATCH the PEX tubing manufacturer!!! amzn.to/3dbEhR6
I wish I'd hired you!
I wonder if heat transfer plates would have worked better than Ultra Fin. I only have one PEX tube per joist bay. I almost want to take the ceiling off my garage and run more PEX with heat transfer plates (just junk the Ultra Fins)
you'll know if the ultra-fins are working correctly if the return water is ~30 degress cooler. convection isn't going to be as good per unit area as this conducted transfer, but it can be made to work.
What if you need to install a hardwood floor above?
Simple. You use the correct fasteners. I can call you on the phone: shop.askthebuilder.com/15-minute-phone-or-video-conversation-with-tim/
Do you need to use an oxygen barrier pex?
Yes. You always you O2 barrier for radiant heat!
Looks like someone is gonna be warm in winter...wondering if this heat is useable in an off grid situation. Bonnie
Yes, the heat works in off-grid situations. You just need to have a standby generator and a large supply of propane. Just think how you'd heat with any other method.
I don't think this is the best way to do it. you will always have much more heat on the side closest to the boiler. you will want to skip over truss bays then hit them on the way back, in reverse order. that way, the first truss/stud bay will have both the hottest loop and the coolest loop in it. it will cost a bit more in pex, but we're talking $100-$200 more in pex cost, which is nothing in the grand scheme of a heating system. you may even want a manifold/Tee and run two separate branches, one starting at the far end and one starting at the close end.
Well, Uponor is quite possibly the world leader in radiant floor heating. This system was designed per their specs. You might want to read their installation manual.
How do you keep it going when the Electric grid goes down for about 3 to 4 years
Easy. You have a standby electric generator connected to a very large supply of propane. Do you anticipate the grid going down for that length of time in the near future?
is that an off grid situation cause I'd also like to know if u can run this off grid affordably
Just do the math. See above.
@@askthebuilder math...what's that..lol
You have bigger problems to worry about at that point
Explanation on how to run it is super confusing
No problem. It's a very tough concept to explain and show in a video. We did the best we could at the time. Plus, you get to watch it for free. If you would like a one-on-one tutoring session, I offer it: shop.askthebuilder.com/expert-1-hour-phone-call/
@@askthebuilder im not trying to be better than you im trying to learn something so im telling you its very confusing to understand
QSL as we say in Morse code!
You can do it off a ladder, done it many times...
You can do it on stilts too, or even riding a unicorn.
@@askthebuilder where to find a unicorn? i want to have fun while i work
I got mine at www.unicornsforrent.com
Good video
I'm glad you liked it. How about returning the favor? Click the THANKS text link under the video and do the right thing so I can make more good videos for you.