Did'nt vegeta change with his new form and his promise to find his own way of becoming stronger and NOT following Goku? This is even seen in the Moro arc where he is training on Yardrath (I hope this is spelled right) while goku is in the TimeChamber.
There are times when I get heavily annoyed by people and their attempts at character development and analysis. Mark, you literally explained Vegeta in the section about Z, he had his start as a villain, became an anti-hero and ended the series as a full blown good guy, realising that he is currently weaker than Goku and acknowledged that - for the first time. In Super, he is the "Complete" Vegeta, and takes up a "Deutroagonist" next to Goku, we don't see "development" because he has become the character he was always meant to be. Its literally the inverse of Gohan and you were complaining about Gohan having his development sliced up after Cell. Which do you want, development or no development? Pick one dude, because all it looks like now is bitching because things aren't the way you particularly want them.
My personal favorite Vegeta moment is in the Cell saga when he apologizes to Gohan at the end. It's something you never see him do and brought his arc full circle for the time.
Yeah, that's good stuff. My favourite moment is when he shoots Cell in the back during the beam struggle. He accepts his role as a support and gives up his pride for the people he cares about.
Probably a pet peeve but it bothered me slightly that Vegeta went back to the saiyan armor in Super. I get it is a more iconic look, but the more humanized clothing he had in Buu arc to me told a story that he had gotten comfortable with the idea of being idk normal? lol
Ya know, I kinda thought the same way too..🤔 Getting new outfits in most Shonens seemed like it somewhat represented a character's growth. Reverting back just feels like a regression in a way 😕
You do realize that Vegeta only took the armor off in the Buu saga simply because he wanted to join the Tenkaichi Budokai tournament, right? The tournaments rules say that you can't wear armor and that's why Vegeta took it off. If you paid attention you'd know this.
Dragon Ball Z: Vegeta's using Final Explosion to give up his life and kill an enemy he can't defeat normally. Dragon Ball Super: Vegeta's using Final Explosion to give up his life and defeat an enemy whose ass he was just kicking with no problem. Also, he doesn't die. But it reminded you of Z, right?!
@Azulmagia Thank you for reminding me of how much I hated that call back... And what's sad about is, it could have worked. We could've had this emotionally driven fight as Vegeta saw what he used to be in Top, and tries to convince Top of the mistake he made. Top's overwhelming power and unwillingness to relinquish the lie he believed could've driven Vegeta into a corner. This would've led Vegeta to use the final explosion. But instead we get a hollow call back, because "wow wasn't that moment cool?"
@@steph03tyna72 the "emotional meaning" in vegeta death in the Buu saga Is bs Vegeta pass from being a Mass murderer to someone Who loves his new companion. It's Just stupid At least in super he Is motivated to do to the right thing
@@Mepphy99 Vegeta in Z sacrifice has a meaning he did that to atone from his sins and to save his family, in Super it was just a way to make you think" LOOK VEGETA DID THE SAME THING HE DID IN Z BUT DIDN'T DIE FOR PLOT" He could have ended it with the super Galick gun like in Xenoverse 2
The major issue with Vegeta in Super is that in the creative department of Toei (series directors and writers) there were many people who had varying opinions on how Vegeta should be characterised. So in some episode he would be written well, then in the others he wouldn't be.
@@snkosen9798 Dragon Ball Super went through FIVE different series directors. The series director basically have the job overseeing the scripts and plot outlines. So if you have one series direction who helms the show in one way and another series direction who has a much different vision for how the show should be handled creatively, you're going to get inconsistently written episodes.
@@bleach1210115 I think Vegeta from the start of Super to the end of the FT arc was perfectly fine. It was during the recruitment episodes and the middle portion of the Universal Survival arc where his character writing wasn't good.
Honestly, I still do love the moment with him dangling by his boot on some floating debris in the Tournament of Power and he starts hearing Bulma in his head telling him to get up. I won't try to claim it was masterfully done or anything like that but it really just struck a wholesome cord with me. Maybe it was around the time that her VA passed away so it had a lot more punch to it. Who knows.
I read Vegeta's Super arc as slowly admitting to himself that he views Goku as a friend rather than a foe, letting go of what happened in the Sayian Saga which eventually would pay off that small line at the end of DBZ where Vegeta watches Goku fly away with Uub and says "you can't fool me old friend".
Honestly I think Vegeta is the character that makes super for me, as he is the only character who seems to have stakes. Goku has no real emotional connections to his family, and piccolo( my favorite character) is not significantly used enough for his connection to Gohan to mean anything. Vegeta has a family, who he loves, and will do anything to protect it, this in my opinion makes him the character to watch in super.
@@Lord_Of_Night He isn't the best written character. Cabba is much better than him, is basically Gohan fused with Vegeta, which is why I love him so much.
@@jantheking7028 What I mean is, from the characters that originated in Z being written in Super. In order to underscore how the writing dipped in quality. Cabba is a Super original and we don't have any older material to compare him with.
@@painvillegaming4119 that’s mostly a story problem, along with them trying to go back to the origins of dragon ball, that focused on adventure. Vegeta needed to be left on earth while trunks goku and pan went to space. He’s the only person on earth with Goku’s level of power, and so it’s up to him to defend it if goku isn’t available. The other problem is they focused more on goku, which I understand, he’s the main character, but I agree that vegeta had too little screen time. Perhaps they could’ve utilized him more in the shadow dragons saga, being paired with pan. As they fight the shadow dragons, Vegeta scolds and motivates pan so she can actually do things on their own
@@thelastarcadegamer6655 i disagree vegeta should have gone for god sake it the faith of the planete that is at stake plus bonus vegeta would not play around and just beat up every damn annoyance in gt
@@thelastarcadegamer6655 that would be fine if it felt like an adventure. It felt more like an opportunity for more comedy than it was for adventure which felt off considering how powerful they were.
I like vegeta's development in the moro arc. This vegeta is a lot more mature and selfless than his younger self. He's also haunted by his past and is trying to atone for the wrongs he did. He even swallowed his saiyan pride for the sake of protecting the galaxy from Moro.
@@Jack-fq6mq implying he wasn’t the voice of reason during the conflict when he wasn’t on his ultra ego trip, without him goku and granolah would’ve just fought to the death without knowing the real threat
Honestly, I really like what they did with Vegeta in Super. After the speech he delivered during the fight with Majin Buu, it is clear he does not desire to surpass Goku anymore and has accepted his being second. He even acknowledges that not even having loved ones to protect made him as strong as Goku. He stops pursuing power as such. In Super, with the arrival of Beerus, he realizes how weak and incapable of protecting his loved ones he is, and therefore his struggle to become stronger begins anew, completely changed. Throughout the whole entirety of Super, he wants to surpass his limits to protect what he cherishes. This comes to a climax during the fight Toppo, where he states that he, unlike Toppo, does not leave behind what he is to become stronger (like he did in the Majin Saga), but only becomes stronger to protect what he is. It is for him like facing his former self in a way. TL;DR: In Z he pursues power as such, even using loved ones as “means” to surpass Goku, Super he becomes stronger to protect loved ones.
Also this super asked for a request for someone to become stronger. In the original series I don't think would ever do that. VEgeta has shown be humble father in comparison goku. Being respectful to the rest main cast. Vegeta is not detrimental to heroes like he was z.
I like this interpretation because it broadly aligns with how I view Vegeta in Super :D He is in some ways less interesting, but he's also figured out who he is, which makes him interesting in ways that are different than those in which he was interesting in Z.
So is Vegeta now a generic shonen protagonist with the cliche of fighting to protect his loved ones? Oh and also I disagree with some of this. Yes, Vegeta wants to surpass his limits but you forgot that he still wants to surpass Goku and it was stated in one of the first episodes of dbs.
T - Bone your forget is not detrimental the cast as was z. In z a uptight, serious, causing a lot trouble for characters, starting conflicts, and argument between them. Super willing spend with family, take care of them, encourage his future son to be better than him, he also shown caring father and good husband, want trains with teacher rather than his own. Vegeta has been more laid back and chill be more respectful to others. Than he was in past.
@Son Gohan This myth has got to die. Toriyama wasn't "forced" to continue Z after Freeza. There was no plan to originally end the franchise at Namek. And with the exception of Baby, GT's villains sucked hard. Goku Black/Zamasu is way better than any of them lol.
@Son Gohan Well said! Dragonball super is complete garbage. For the life of me I cannot believe that someone who experienced dbz back in the day would find any redeeming qualities in super.
@Son Gohan I just don't see it happening. The passion of a visionary creator is missing. And besides, the dumbass fanbase has approved of all the cheap nonsense they dished out in super. We are going to keep getting more of the same stuff, until dbz ends up becoming a distant memory. The damage done by super is immense.
Dissonance Paradiddle I think GT is a better show, it took risks, characters actually grew up, the concepts are really amazing and should be revisited like Broly, even Vegeta grew up instead of being regressed
It's actually backwards the Dragonball universe. The characters move faster than people can see. Heck, they move faster than people who can move faster than normal people can see, can see. Talking is the LONGEST part of the fight.
@@ulyssesdiaz7651 So? In that case, the Dragonballs were used to bring back Freeza, turn Pilaf, Shu, and Mai into kids, find out about the Super Sayian God, and there was that filler episode where Goku was supposed to wish King Kai back to life.
@@alfa01spotivo doesnt really matter, every youtuber has a different style and Mark happens to have an amazing style and it would be great to see his take on it
There is one major moment where Vegeta's changed, and that's how protective he's been portrayed of his daughter Bra - foregoing training and keeping up with Goku in order to take care of Bulma during her pregnancy, even turning down the invitation to the tournament itself because of it -> it lead directly to Whis taking action to help in that regard. He's also portrayed as very doting of Bra after she's born. This, oddly enough, isn't as much a departure from the Vegeta we know from DBGT (he takes a lot of care of Bra there too), but he is quite different from the one we know from DBZ. Sure, it's not a huge emotional through-line that is then employed in the major moments, except for, maybe, his final stand in the Tournament of Power, and it is generally only shown in gags which ,as you put it, are in scenes that you may very easily miss, but it is there, and it is a difference we got from Super.
You see the problem is people absolutely hate any change that makes a character weaker. Gohan for instance puts his studies and family life first yet everyone calls him a loser. These same people love mystic Gohan despite it being the biggest asspull of dbz.
Diddle n Fiddle I never understood why people like ultimate gohan, he DOES NOTHING OF ANY RELEVANCE IN THE ARC, he gets fooled by super buu (who’s not even smart to begin with) and gets absorbed, THATS IT, and potential unleashed is THE MOST unearned power up in the history of power ups, he literally sits on the ground and old Kai does the rest, yeah, at the end of the day it’s a ritual that unleashed HIS true potential but he didn’t earn it, it was literally given to him, ultimate gohan is dumb and I dare anyone to give me actual reasons as to why one should like him other than “CaUSe HE’s STronG AnD COol”
@@diddlenfiddle7311 With Gohan, he *is* weaker for it. He neglects the thing that can really save his family: being strong. He doesn't need to earn a lot of money to provide for his family, since Mr. Satan basically pays all their bills. He doesn't train because he feels like he doesn't need to. His dad will always save the day, right? Vegeta not wanting to go with Goku to train while Bulma is pregnant? That's Vegeta trying to right the wrong he did back in the Android Saga. He disappeared when Bulma was pregnant with Trunks and as we've seen with Vegeta (especially in the Manga), he's a man who carries his guilt with him for a LONG time. So him not going with Goku is him making amends for him not being there when Bulma was pregnant with Trunks/when Trunks was born. That's why people are okay with Vegeta acting "weaker" and aren't okay with Gohan's portrayal.
@@diddlenfiddle7311 I don't know that many hated Vegeta becoming a dad in GT. In my opinion a much better iteration than the version we got in Super. Bigger asspull than Fusion and SSJ3 Gotenks? I don't think so hahaha. At least in Gohan's case it had been established throughout the series that he had this power, even by Guru who didn't have enough time to untap Gohan's potential.
Honestly Vegeta and Roshi are some of my favorite developing characters in dragonball. Roshi got this treatment in Z because he became completely irrelevant against galaxy superpowers. His last real moment I can remember is the aftermath of the android saga fallout regretting not being there to save his pupils. They tried to bring him back in super and he did have a cool moment but this character couldve been used far better. Imagine Roshi being the one to initially defend Goku against the androids when he was sick and piccolo saving him. Or SOMETHING I really loved that character in dragonball, he is entirely the reason Goku is who he is.
hey roshi got one of the sickest scenes in the manga where he holds off jiren for like a minute teaching goku the principles of UI the fact that roshi’s pure skill allowed him to hold off the strongest character in the series was one of the coolest in the franchise, it reminded me of his fight with goku back in dragon ball where he was overexerting himself in order to make sure goku would never stop trying to learn and grow, the whole scene in the manga i’d highly recommend reading even if you don’t read the rest of the manga, i genuinely think its one of the coolest moments in the series
You've done a really good job articulating that the writers for Super, and maybe Toriyama himself, have lost sight of what makes both Goku and Vegeta as well so interesting to begin with. Really enjoyed your break downs on both.
I don't know if I'll ever finish watching Super. I knew I'd struggle to get into it after watching Resurrection F. Near the end when it looked like Vegeta was gonna save the day for once but instead stands there for a solid 30 seconds like an idiot while Frieza charges up an attack and blows up the planet they're on resulting in the time travel fix ending where Goku saving the day and laughs it off. I'm fine with the idea of Goku always saving the day but don't tease me with Vegeta almost getting the spotlight for once. It's like an owner waving a big juicy steak in front of their dog going "what's this boy? You want it!? What's this? Who's a good boy!?" Then eating it and laughing.
For me, as a life long humble servant of my prince, these are the moments that super did that made me smile, and appreciate how vegeta had changed over time. #1 vegeta gave everything he could to stomach taking his family to the fair in the beginning, even though it was clearly killing him. But, he made a promise, and he wasnt about to let his son down, not again. #2 vegeta could claim he didnt care for his family the way one should, but when his bulma was slapped, he achieved a power greater than he ever had on his own. He went toe to toe and boxed with god, and it didnt matter that he knew he couldnt win, he refused to go out like a bitch, and let someone get away with bringing harm to the mother of his child. #3 vegeta was willing to become a god of destruction if he needed to, just so he could train with whis (something that the writers must have completely forgotten about since i dont think its been touched upon at all since, maybe in the manga? I personally loved the idea that vegeta would be trained to one day become a god of destruction, and i really hope they still pursue this. While training with whis, he becomes more calm, patient, quiet, controlled. all the things needed to utilize god ki and achieve SSB. What he was able to accomplish on his own in the 6-8 months before goku arrives, easily put him far beyond gokus ability, but as usual the writers let goku overpower vegeta in no time, fuck goku. #4 In many ways, i felt vegeta had developed a patience that he previously struggled greatly with, as i stated above. He watched goku fight frieza and just studied what was going on, learning from the fight, rather than allowing his anger and need for revenge to cloud his judgment. By the time its his turn, frieza couldnt touch him if he wanted to, and vegeta finally was able to get a win for all of the saiyan race. #5 when future trunks arrived again, vegeta wasnt as cold to him, because he had watched him die once and we saw how terrified that made him. This time around, he was hard on the boy, but also so damn proud of the man he became. When he saw the people he saved, the care he had for mai when she was hurt, learned of bulmas death, it all hit vegeta hard. I believe i saw a proud papa smile on his face when trunks was able to resuscitate mai. It made me happy to see this reaction from him because i knew right then and there that vegeta knew he had more to fight for than ever. It showed when he trained his ass off in time chamber before the second fight with rose, and even when he trained trunks for a moment back in our time. That father son galick gun may not have had the kind of weight it needed, but for me i was so happy to see this moment, and still am. #6 Vegeta quickly becomes excited to learn of saiyans on another universe, and just as quickly as he was excited, cabba was immediately able to piss him off by giving up in battle. He used his rage to smack some sense into cabba, and teach him a lesson. He was able to help him achieve something greater, without showing weakness. He gave cabba something to strive for, and a reason to be a better saiyan for the sake of all of his people. He single handedly changed the lives of an entire planet, and he just doesnt know it yet. #7 before the top started, vegeta refused to leave bulmas side while she was pregnant. he would gladly let the universe end entirely than to miss the birth of his child again, and to leave his bulma alone to deal with it all again without him. He used to allow his pride to define what a warrior needed to be, but now he allowed his pride to define what a father and husband should be, and i loved this choice so much. its only once whis speeds up the process, and hes able to hold her for the first time, that he realizes he has so much more to fight for than he ever imagined, and it made him stronger, not weaker as he used to feel. #8 in the top itself, not only was vegeta able to surpass his limits on his own, without having to catch up to goku for once, he was able to use what he had learned over time and become more of a devastating fighter. by the time we reach the end, vegeta was able to achieve ssbe, for once his own transformation of sorts, and he was able to channel his love for his family, and his desire to avenge cabba and the new saiyan planet he hoped to be able to be a part of one day. Everything he ever cared about flashed before his eyes and it made him stronger again, and he surpassed his limits once more. then once that wasnt enough, and he gave every last breath he had fighting jiren knowing he couldnt win to buy more time for the others, he gave his last bit to goku on the way out, admitting he knew goku was always going to be above him, and he accepted that. It gave me pride to see this, even knowing it hurt vegeta to have to reach this point. That is all i can remember at the moment, but i felt we got some great moments in super, even if they werent as impactful as dbz was narratively. I am also loving his change in the manga moro arc where he refuses to let another namekien suffer while hes around, he apologizes to them for his past, and he even goes to yardrat to not only make himself better, but give the people he cares about a chance to survive. Vegeta has grown so much, and surpassed goku everywhere it counts for me, and it makes me proud to serve my prince.
The recent DBS manga chapters confirm your points. Vegeta is becoming more patient, calm and wise (Yardrat training). He is moving on from a mere warrior to a master/teacher. That's where I see his real character growth during DBS. Especially the conversations with Cabba and Trunks really showed that, and I think it will show even more when he returns from Yardrat. So he is not shallow as a character, but instead I think the show just has issues communicating all that to the viewer. Perhaps that will change in the Moro Arc, which seems to have a more serious tone to it and will hopefully bring across Vegeta's serious/mature side better.
I love vegeta in super he went from a bastard evil lunatic to being a protector a father husband and a good person. I dont think of vegeta in super as another character arc but a continuation of z where z ended with him realizing what he needed a family where super shows how he treats and protects those he loves and his wanting for redemption from the past. in the moro arc he saved a namakian village like in z he killed one.
I don't think the Vegeta in super feels related to the one in Z ignoring 'character arcs'. He's really childish, antisocial and obnoxious. He's like a way less cool version of Piccolo at the start of Dragon ball Z. Contrast that with the Vegeta in GT. He's clearly heavily entrenched with his family, looks after them, still has that rivalry with Goku so a lot of the same elements. Except Vegeta is also charismatic, funny at times, likeable and at times badass. He's definitely not antisocial in GT. You can easily see how the Vegeta of the buu arc became the man he was in GT. Not that I'm defending GT here.
I just got something pointed out from Vegeta's fight against Toppo. He gets fixated on overpowering Toppo head-on because him discarding his ideals for power mirrors what Vegeta did when he became Majin Vegeta. Beating Toppo with the same attack he used to redeem himself showed both of them that leaving their beliefs is not the way to get power, and sounds like excellent writing to me.
I agree with your premise. However, Vegeta did go through some major changes. For the first time in his life, he accepted training from someone. And he became a teacher himself. I actually thought it was out of character for him to just sit back and accept Goku as being better then him. What always made him relatable is his strive to be the best. That’s a very humanoid trait. It would have been boring if he just became another background character who waited for Goku to show up.
End of Z. “Your better than me Kakarot... Beginning of Super: “I will surpass you! I am the best’’ Sigh.....really just going backwards with character development lol.
End of Super, Vegeta sacrifices himself and gives the rest of his power to goku, knowing that only he can win the tournament (it's basically the same as z) And right after the battle, goku say that he cannot go U.I anymore, making so that both of them stay at the "same" power levels The development in both characters is stuck. They do not grow anymore, and that's what makes Super fells so bad, for me it's even worse than Gt. Gt gave me a lot of emotions and memorable moments in it's seccond half, and all that super has to offer are some cool battles with fanservice and references... it's just like heroes at this point
RadicalLaRuby I was ok with that in the manga tho it just showed that he admits that goku is better than him but he’s not gonna give up on trying to surpass him which doesn’t really revert his character
Akuro Sasamiya well to be fair they don’t really develop in Gt either like vegeta asks goku to fuse with him (after being absent/taken over/17’s punching bag)but that’s all I can think of comparing super to heroes is a bit of a over exaggeration.
Yeah, but change in a character or development is not always required to create a well written character. Dark knight’s joker, for example, doesn’t change throughout the story, but is still considered as one of the greatest characters of all. In super, we see a Vegeta after his arc, after all his struggle of good and evil. If Vegeta was to have any sort of change in that aspect, it would’ve made his development in Z quite irrelevant, so what we do see in Super is not a character’s change, but his nuances. Super is about humanizing Vegeta more, revealing that he is different than we think he is, he’s a lot more caring, a lot more considerate and shows to be an actually good person, not only by what side he chooses to fight for, but also in actions and behavior. Vegeta was probably the best written character in Super. I’m not saying he was perfectly written, but the staff took him in the right direction.
Great video Mark! Sadly Super being Dragon Balls greatest hits seemed to way it down heavily. I think a series of how you would have wrote Super like the Buu Saga world rock. Maybe do it arc by arc? Love the Anatomy series
@Forever Zenith well to be fair the idea of him being a mentor to someone does sound appealing but then again super didn't expand on anything of that sort and cabba just doesn't seem interesting to me at all
I will always love vegeta, but I hate how super reckoned his development during the kid buu fight which turned him into the good person he is at the end of Z and he could actually have a civil/friendly conversation with goku
Expect in super they still talk to each other and super is before the end of z. Super is in the middle of the majin buu saga and the end of z. That's why goten and trunks aren't fully grown and why there is no uub
@@Inviabledude45 but it was the "your are number one" speech during the kid buu fight when he changed. Super makes him the character he was at the start of the buu saga. That thumbs up vegeta gives at the end of the kid buy fight, super vegeta would never do that and im angry with that
@@timedragon5492 I know people hate gt and it's not canon and crap, but it takes place after the kid buy fight just like super and yes there are points of vegeta in being well vegeta, but there is also a lot of friendly conversation between the two and vegeta is just more laid back in general
Vegeta’s “change” moments you mentioned aren’t exactly spectacular. But what about when he’s portrayed as a flat character? Like with Cabba? When the writers aren’t trying to keep Vegeta a positive change character, he can be pretty compelling in Super. The moments are brief but charming.
Making a point to go back and rewatch all your content (priority to Dragon Ball) again. Sucks to see what happened over the holidays and sucks to not see as many videos come from your channel. With that, I know I a lot of us are waiting to hear more of your thoughts on the upcoming movie this April. You’re one of the biggest voices to a lot of folks on DB character progression and story/narrative arcs. Too understandable that you’re probably still apprehensive over the whole ordeal I’m sure you’re still battling. Regardless, have to let you know, the viewers still love you Mark. You’re a talented dude and we haven’t forgotten… Haven’t forgotten your talent, the joy you bring folks through your content, the knowledge or the deeper inter workings of plot that you impart, and your genuinely positive and hopeful spirit. Again man, looking forward to the next projects. Gonna keep supporting and running up the numbers on what you still have on the platform. Take care of yourself! Very Respectfully, Ken Recurrent Viewer
First, love the DB Lofi. I practice Martial arts with those exact tracks. Love it. Second, you nailed Vegeta in DBZ, no question there. But for DBS, I feel like you may have missed the point. Vegeta's story in Super isn't just because of Super being a call back. It HAS to be a call back or else Z wouldn't have even mattered. He won't change because he has finally found balance. Until that balance was shook by the GoD, and then he desired divinity AND EARNED IT. We saw him cater to a sleeping Beerus, and fallow a Sensei (Whis) with as much respect as the prince has. His desire for power will always be driven by personal means, but now it's MORE than just trying to be the best. It's about being the BEST version of himself. IDK man, usually you're a little more upbeat about these kinda things. I'd like you to dive into a deeper analysis of Vegeta's Flat Arc in super. Just my opinion.
@Lucille nailed it. DBZ is full of callbacks to the original DB series. It was just done better and in a way that didn't isolate fans but made us more curious as to WTF happened before Z (reflecting on when DBZ first hot the west).
@Lucille what are you talking about bro? All Im saying is that if they needed to do call backs, they didnt need to make it so heavy handed like they did with Vegeta. They could do it tactfully
I liked seeing Vegeta finding his new way in life and acting on it in Super. Hes now a family-loving good guy, albeit grumpy and I like how hes embracing that to an extent.
Very interesting video dude and you've highlighted a lot of elements I didn't consider when it comes to Super. I enjoyed Super overall and it dedinitely had some great moments with some of the new characters and how it turned Frieza from someone I didn't care to see again, to someone I love all over again with. But it's definitely true that Super didn't really have much in the way of character progression especially for Vegeta. Which is a shame considering his journey throughout DBZ. Hopefully the manga is plotting out a proper and course of action for the DB universe which will be more enriching and satisfying.
Your bit about novice writers around the 8 minute mark is one of the most profound things I’ve heard in a while in regards to writing and the process of making a good story. Man you kick ass mark! Keep it up!
Mad respect for adapting Vegeta's DBZ nose for your thumbnail art of him. As much as I like his more proportional design now, his DBZ design is nostalgic.
When Vegeta acknowledged Goku as a person and how kind hearted of a Saiyan he is towards his friends, family and even his enemies That's where his character got a lot of respect for me. Helping Goku to save his family, his friend, and the world itself. To compare Vegeta to how he was in the Saiyan Saga till now it's really compelling to see from his character.
Dude your videos are great, I really enjoy watching all the work you put into making them and I love the awesome analysis you make. Have you ever considered making videos about Avatar: the last Airbender? I love that show, and I feel like it's one of the most interesting and we'll written stories out there. I hope it's not only the hype because I grew watching it, and I'll be awesome to see one of your analysis about it. This video reminded me of Zuko. Anyway, great work keep it up!
It appears like The type of growth this beloved sayian went through in Z is like lighting in a bottle for the new writers at Toei. I hope if Super does get a sequel, this wrong will be righted with rich character dialogue and the event setups that make a spectacular scene have emotional weight behind it because it's not just Vegeta who needs it, it's literally at least 90% of the cast members, Espically Beerus, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo, Whis, and DBS Broly. Even if Toriyama has to write EVERYTHING.
This was my problem with DBS from the announcement of it. The entire concept is a compromise. If you set a story in between two other parts of an existing story, you can't change the characters in any meaningful way unless you alter the original ending. This is why GT, for its flaws, is better. It's an actual sequel that progresses the story and characters. Super isn't a sequel. It's like the Lion King 1 1/2 of anime: it answers questions nobody asked.
I still remember when people thought Super was going take place after the manga's ending, with Goku training/going on adventures with Pan and Uub and one of them taking on Beerus.
This is a professional, mature analysis and will be completely lost on all the people grasping at their memories of loving DBZ as a kid. Dragonball, like Star Wars and the big names of DC/Marvel, has become part of the global cultural consciousness. That means huge economic weight. Those managing that weight are in a constant battle between wanting the hearts of fans and wanting the disposable income of bored children. Yes, a lot of bad writing comes from people blindly imitating good writing, but a lot also comes from pure dismissive contempt for the customers.
I've still been hopeful that super was a chance for the studio to get back into the flow of things and the real magic of dragonball would return if they picked up the story after Goku and Uub's fight at the tourney. I can dream.
While I do agree that dbs didn't get any where near as close as Z did with Vegeta's arc, I wouldn't agree to the statement you made about Vegeta pretty much not changing at all in super. One of my favorite moments in dbs was towards the end of the TOP arc when he finally accepted to growing on his own direction instead of chasing after Goku like he has his whole life. He accepted himself as a different person with different strengths and weakness and decided he would be growing on his own instead of always trying to replicate Gokus success. And while it wasnt as memorable as his progress in the Z arcs, I still feel it's an incredibly important change in his character and opens the door for him to make new discoveries about himself and continue to develop his character further (such as maybe even having exclusive forms to Vegeta. Just like Zamasu got Super Saiyan Rose). Still a great video tho mark. Big fan of your channel and can't wait to see that GT video :)
Honestly, the best place for Vegeta's character to go is for him to not only become stronger than Goku by a wide margin once again, but for him to also fulfill the role or Earth's Protector while Goku is absent, dealing with another problem off world. For a negative situation to occur (Especially with Freeza) and have Vegeta be the true last line of defense would be the best growth his character could undergo at this time. For him to take on the burden and responsibilities that Goku usually does, his arc would finally come full circle as the man who came to earth to destroy it, to him becoming its best and strongest protector.
I see this as a good solution. I was so angry in gt when they wasted the opportunity to make this the case versus super 17. Vegeta should have gotten ssj4 then and saved the world before Goku even made it back. This doesn't alter the final ark much really. They wouldn't tag team the dragons out of their saying desire to fight so Omega shenron still happens but then Vegeta a d Goku finish with a combo attack instead of the same ole sb
@Michael Jordan "Just admit it, you are salty that Goku is always one step ahead of him. " Damn fucking right I am. I'm ALWAYS Goku salty. I took a fucking tally while watching Super.
@Michael Jordan No. It has nothing to do with salt. My thing is, Vegeta is supposed to be Goku's rival but the problem is, Goku is always shown to be superior to Vegeta in every way which limits their rivalry. Because of this, Vegeta's character remains stagnate and hasn't developed since his fight with Buu and the story is always forced to come up with new stronger and stronger antagonists for Goku to defeat. It means to Goku, Vegeta isn't a rival anymore but a sparing partner and for Vegeta, Goku isn't a rival but basically just a goal. The best rivalry I can think of off the top of my head is honestly, Atem/Yugi Moto and Seto Kaiba. Kaiba is a man of pure power, he's got money, resources and his style reflects this attitude being that of pure offense and destruction. Yugi is someone who's basically weak, comes from a lower middle class, his cards aren't incredibly powerful in terms of offense and defense but he relies on his friends for inspiration and support with his style focusing on strategy and disruption. Its not Yugi's power that makes him better than Kaiba but its his tactics and skill (And plot armor) that makes him better. That's what's missing from the element between Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta were at their best when Vegeta was the superior force and Goku was the underdog, using his different techniques and resilience along with his friends to beat Vegeta. For their Rivalry to hold the same weight it used to have while progressing their characters forward instead of retreading familiar ground, Goku and Vegeta need their current dynamic flipped while maintaining their new growing perspectives. At the end of the Broly movie and with Uub, Goku is taking on the role of a teacher, passing down his strengths to the next generation like he tried to do with Gohan. Meanwhile, Vegeta, the man who pride himself on being a cold hearted murderer and destroyer becoming and protector and savoir who actually defeats a main villain is the best way for their characters to actually develop. Its far from salt, I just want them to actually grow and unlike you, I take story and character development seriously and clearly, so do many fans of Dragonball which is why many find Dragonball Super to be as shallow as it is.
That's dumb. Goku is the main character. You can tell by the way Dragon Ball is written that it's not that type of story. Yeah, there are other memorable characters, but the entire narrative revolves around Goku. That's like if Hiei replaced Yusuke or if Polnareff replaced Jotaro.
Super honestly made me question Japan's ability to write a good story. It honestly feels like Toriyama and Toyotarou aren't even fans of their own work.
I love what they've done to vegeta in super. Making him a family man who would give up everything for his son and wife has progressed his character. And now hes finally split from goku's footsteps.
Super wasn't perfect and I do have an issue of certain Vegeta moments, but what about the moment Vegeta attempted to go Ultra Instinct, his promise to Cabba, his fights in the Universe 6 tournament showing his very cerebral fighting ability, even his presence in the TOP, he had some good character moments, and we understand more of what he cares about truly and that he truly loves his family and life on Earth. To the point that he refused to participate in the TOP because Bulma was still pregnant.
It has nothing to do with Super being Super and everything to do with Vegeta having finished a gigantic character arc at the end of Z. He was still going through the throes of that in Super. He came to realize that he was CONTENT with having a family and living a simple life. Super shows that in full force, with him attempting to opt out of a tournament in favor of being there for his growing family. The first few episodes of Super show him fulfilling his promise to Trunks to take him to the park. Sure, it may not be as dramatic as turning evil and sacrificing himself to try (and fail) to kill the big bad, but it's true to form for Vegeta. Where people believe that Super ruined his character are the times where he still strives to exceed Goku. Change is not done in a day. Try to break a habit and you will find yourself slipping every now and then. Vegeta's relationship with Goku is more of a healthy rivalry than an unhealthy obsession. By the end, he openly cheers for Goku to defeat Jiren "for us." His rivalry is more of a hobby, with his family being his obsession (but one he tries to hide).
I feel like Dragon Ball Super did two things really good, one in the Tournament of Power was him getting mad at Toppo for losing his pride and telling Jiren that he will never leave his pride, that is something different I have seen in any Anime Character. Second in the Moro Arc like he said that its time for him to payback people on Namek because of how many torture and trouble he has caused them (something like that), for me it shows that he has regrets on what he did to different planets as well not only Namek but other planets he's destroyed or conquered.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. First though, I need to say I love you and your videos, and also that even though I don't agree with all of them, I deeply respect your content, presentation, and intellect. Thank you so very much for your hard work
Hm. It’s interesting cause I feel like I agree and disagree at the same time. Vegeta doesn’t really grow, and there’s no pressure on him to do so really from an emotional standpoint right, I get that. And I understand why that is boring, but what was Vegeta supposed to do? Some say he reverted backwards, but idk about that. When he saw there were other saiyans in other universes he decided he wanted to teach one as his pupil and even asked to visit their home planet. He protected and fought for Trunks against Goku Black and showed that he loves Trunks still and would never want to see him fall again like he did against Cell. To me, it might not be growth, but it shows that Vegeta still cares. So when it all comes down to it and he’s up against Jiren at the very end, with no more power left to fight, he still stands. Because he’s trying to protect what he needs. And he understands that now because of the growth from Z. And then in the end, he realized the better fighter was still there, and gave his last energy to Goku, because Goku was number 1. Of course Vegeta is still cocky, arrogant, and wants to prove he’s the best. Why would they throw that personality out the window just because he grew to realize he needed his family. Vegeta in super doesn’t need to grow, because Super was about fighting for what you need. Fighting for survival. That’s why they fought against Beerus to start, that’s why they fought against Freiza once more, that’s why the Tournament of Power happened. Sure, you can still believe it’s bad writing to not have an emotional stake for growth, but it’s not like they don’t have emotion at all. It’s interesting. And I just want to say, I love the video, love Dragon Ball, and love Vegeta! Thanks!
To me, Vegeta arc ended in the Buu saga. Mark kind tackle of a bit in Toriyama writing for Gohan in the Buu saga. Toriyama doesn't make new arcs for establishing characters. It is the reason why many of the supporting characters don't have arcs any more because all of them have a completion.
@@brucebanana4486 Yeah, and that's exactly why I think Super is fine in the way Vegeta is handled. He makes no remarkable changes, but there is no need to. The best thing to do is allow him to hold and maintain his natural perspective and personality and that's exactly what he does. And its fun! He gets to train and get better while also having his family. No longer the split between the want and need. There are lots of things you can say about Super to say its got bad writing, but I think saying Vegeta doesnt change and thats bad, is just kinda wrong...
@@D34doneTTV I just have to say I really like your comments here, it feels like Vegeta in Super is a character that has his life sorted out in a much better, healthier way. His attitude towards training & his desire to be the best are traits that become admirable even on a realistic level, whereas in Z, those same traits were harmful and self-destructive. With a character like him, that spent decades being a ruthless monster, I think it's a little okay to just show us how far he's come without an involved sideplot. I would have liked more than what we got, but I'm also happy with it, you know? He's my favourite, I would have killed for a new character arc, but Super has a different feel that it's going for so I don't necessarily feel robbed of anything.
@@electrocast EXACTLY! That's exactly why I said I both agree and disagree with the premise of the vid. His arc came full circle and is complete. He got what he needed and now has no pressure to change emotionally. Would it be awesome to see more Vegeta? OF COURSE! Vegeta is awesome and he's always a super fun character to use his perspective of dragon ball. But did the writing become worse because they decided Vegeta didnt need to change a lot or go through a full side arc? No, not in my opinion. Super isnt perfect, but they did a fine job with Vegeta imo.
Keep doing these videos. I take your analysis and try to apply to my stories. As you were detailing the sacrifice part, I was already planning how I want Vegeta to fall under Narak's control, kill Trunks by mistake, leading him to reinforce his false belief in the lie so he can protect his ego, defeat Goku and ultimately lose his will to do anything after having achieved what he had set to do - go back to the way he was in the past and become the strongest being in the universe. Gotta come up with his redemption arc though... I'm thinking that far ahead and I have only 4 chapters done... -_- I'm never getting to that point...
Nice video as always! Vegeta pinnacle as a character was his sacrifice against Bu, and somehow it"s redemption coming from the dead is somewhat related to reincarnation, something that even Piccolo mentions. Vegeta in Super seems a "Partner in Crime" of Goku, at least untill Moro's Arc where now it seems to develop a little bit. Overall the best character in the series so far, the Prince of all Saiyans!
I don't know, dragon ball kind of wrote itself into a corner. And that kind of happened from the very begining, it introduces a new character with a new arc to explore and then... since they already worked with the core values of that characters they have to introduce a new character. Toriyama kind of let vegeta have a long development, but consider picoro, he didn't change at all after the first arc of dragon ball, or ten shin han. They already went through their journey, so super had to introduce a new character, beerus, which is if you think about it, the vegeta of dragon ball super.
You can't look at Vegeta in modern Dragon Ball without looking at the iterations written by Toriyama himself. Res F and Broly are interesting case studies because they both follow what has become the standard DBS template of Goku as the main protag, Vegeta as the secondary protag (Battle of Gods was more transitionary). And in those, Vegeta is written as fairly apathetic to what's going on around him. He expresses more emotion at having to fuse with Goku, or being told he thinks too much in battle, or Goku trying to argue why it was a good idea to bring back Freeza, than he does to two Saiyans with a vendetta showing up out of the blue to kill him. You get the sense Toriyama, the comedy writer, is mainly keeping him around because he likes his "bickering best buds" dynamic with Goku. People harped on him not "getting the kill" on Freeza in Res F as if that actually mattered, but I thought it was refreshing that Vegeta himself didn't seem to care. While that apathy doesn't leave much room for growth, I'll take it over the self-righteousness and repetitive character beats the DBS anime and manga indulge in. If Toriyama just likes him as a foil then more power to him, but we (and Toyo, and the Toei writers) should stop acting like there'll ever be more to him than what we got in Z. He's a victim of his own popularity. Everybody loved Vegeta, but also lamented that he never caught up to Goku in the end (missing the point of the ending of the Buu saga) and now with the new material, Toriyama, Toei and Toyo are happy to indulge the fans cos they'll eat it up.
flawless analysis . Someone had to put this into words. This is the reason the team 4 stars won't make any db abridged episode based upon gt nor super. They both lack in structure, identity, product recognizability . There are no actual scene where the fan would be like "lol yeah that's what the dialogue would had been more likely". 10/10 for this vid
I liked how vegeta became a mentor to Cabba. Giving him a guided introduction to become a super Sayain helped out during the TOP. Vegeta felt more like someone who was immersed in the reality they are in. Good video
I honestly think his development in GT was more noteworthy than Super. Yeah, a lot of people complained that Vegeta would never use Bulma’a blitz wave machine to gain SSJ4 because of his pride, but I think that was the point of the scene. Vegeta at that point knew there was more to stake than his pride, and he was willing to put it aside to save the world. Hell, he was the one that suggested using fusion to best Omega Shenron. That speaks volumes for how much he’s matured since Z. Super kinda feels like we’re on repeat most of the time. Vegeta learning that Goku will always be stronger than him in TOP was something he already knew at the end of the Buu Saga. His discomfort at the thought of fusion is just a running gag that’s going to get old if Gogeta or Vegito make future appearances. The one thing I feel that was somewhat new was his relationship with Cabba, but because they have little screen time together throughout the show it ultimately feels incomplete.
I haven't watched the video yet. So all I have to say right now is that the Vegeta drawing in the thumbnail is TOP NOTCH! Totally classic Vegeta! His Namek saga look can't be beat!
Nah, I think Vegeta's character development gets too much praise. Starting from Dragon Ball characters have made similar transformations, only they dont constantly revert back to how they were before the transformation. Just like what Piccolo had said... when Vegeta dies he wont meet the same fate Goku did when he died. Vegeta seems to be the only character that doesnt suffer the full consequences of his actions. each time he did, he is brought back to life and instantly forgiven. he for some reason still has this urge to kill. super just gave him something to be interested in other than killing and destroying stuff and that was his family.
Finally someone else that doesn't see Vegeta's growth like its a masterpiece, haha. Good point about consequences... you're right, now that I think on it. His growth isn't too different than Tenshinhan nor Piccolo's, tbh, except he gets a wife at the end.
The fact he reverts makes it that much better. He doesn't just fight goku or beat up a kid for six months and dramatically change his entire outlook on good and evil.
I find it to be more believable that he does revert back to his old self sometimes. It wasn't contained with a single fight with goku nor a training arc with gohan. It literally took maybe a decade give or take for vegeta to truly change which makes sense for someone with a past and personality like his. As for not having to face the consequences of his actions I agree with to a degree however he does try to make amends for his past deeds which is shown in the moro arc with him being highly protective of the namekians
@@weridplusho Exactly. I look at Piccolo and Tien and all the stuff they went through to either make amends or just awaken to their true selves and think those have been the strongest transformations in the entire series.
@@imarealone_0076 Him reverting shows that he isn't going through any growth. Vegeta is like 40 years old and his first instinct when someone raises up on him is to kill them, and no one bats an eye. Piccolo doesn't make a full change until he merges with Kami. What Piccolo was born to do and his actions that led up to his final development show that he has undergone the best character development.
Super as a whole seems to lack understanding of their characters (at least the anime, I haven’t read the manga yet). Goku’s lack of book-smarts and lackadaisical/naive attitude in Z are mistaken for dumbness and a lack of self-awareness which is borderline painful to watch in Super. Vegeta’s focus on honor and strength are replaced with an at-times bratty stubbornness and excessive arrogance which make him fight far too poorly considering the fact he’s been fighting his whole life. They feel like caricatures written by people who’ve never watched Dragon Ball. They occasionally nail some satisfying scenes (Vegeta’s speech while fighting Goku Black was particularly badass imo), but more often than not they’re just exasperating. Some people disregard Z fans , claiming they’re blinded by nostalgia, but even new fans like myself (I just got into Dragon Ball this May) can tell the difference in the characters and storytelling and appreciate the maturity of the original; sure it wasn’t great on all fronts, but it was better-structured and far more satisfying to watch as a result.
I have to disagree on regards of Vegeta vs Toppo. The fight is precisely to show the audience how much Vegeta has grow as a character. If in the Buu saga he gave up everything for power, now he fights someone who does the same thing. Also, the fight was able to turn one of Vegeta's most proemient flaws - his pride - as one of his streghts. Today, he is actually too pride to give up the other things he has accomplished, especially regarding his family. To him, this are no longer "unnecessary things", as Toppo claims. So his Final Explosion is, again, mirrored on the one he used aggainst Buu. The grow in power, which allowed him to survive, reflects his grow as a character, unwilling to give up everything for power and actually fighting for someone else.
To be clear. I really enjoyed other aspects of Dragon Ball Super. And overall I still enjoyed it.
Next week... GT
Good luck with GT
Totally Not Mark Yes! Finally!!! This is going to be great!
Did'nt vegeta change with his new form and his promise to find his own way of becoming stronger and NOT following Goku? This is even seen in the Moro arc where he is training on Yardrath (I hope this is spelled right) while goku is in the TimeChamber.
GT might crush you! I still love the SSS4 design
There are times when I get heavily annoyed by people and their attempts at character development and analysis.
Mark, you literally explained Vegeta in the section about Z, he had his start as a villain, became an anti-hero and ended the series as a full blown good guy, realising that he is currently weaker than Goku and acknowledged that - for the first time.
In Super, he is the "Complete" Vegeta, and takes up a "Deutroagonist" next to Goku, we don't see "development" because he has become the character he was always meant to be.
Its literally the inverse of Gohan and you were complaining about Gohan having his development sliced up after Cell.
Which do you want, development or no development? Pick one dude, because all it looks like now is bitching because things aren't the way you particularly want them.
My personal favorite Vegeta moment is in the Cell saga when he apologizes to Gohan at the end. It's something you never see him do and brought his arc full circle for the time.
And when he gets depressed Kakarot isn't around anymore. Unfortunately that gets solved in the worst way possible but hey :/
Yeah, that's good stuff. My favourite moment is when he shoots Cell in the back during the beam struggle. He accepts his role as a support and gives up his pride for the people he cares about.
Yes it's those two moments combined that make it fantastic!
@@stevenwoollard9937 Even better in the Manga where he's the only one to strike Cell in the back. Talk about a shock
Agree
Trunks:”Do you live in your own world”
Vegeta:”Yes, unfortunately I have to share it with all of you”
I AM THE HYPE
Yeah yeah, we can all cute TFS, leave a few lines for the rest of us.
@@mfrebel7831 yeah TFS is pretty cute
"Bitch I'm adorable"
Gohan: Vegeta NOOOOOOOO!
Vegeta:Vegeta YEEEESSSSSS!!
Probably a pet peeve but it bothered me slightly that Vegeta went back to the saiyan armor in Super. I get it is a more iconic look, but the more humanized clothing he had in Buu arc to me told a story that he had gotten comfortable with the idea of being idk normal? lol
Ya know, I kinda thought the same way too..🤔
Getting new outfits in most Shonens seemed like it somewhat represented a character's growth. Reverting back just feels like a regression in a way 😕
TophDaGreat Tbf in Super, he’s training properly under Whis now, the Saipan armour may get him in the mood for serious training
You do realize that Vegeta only took the armor off in the Buu saga simply because he wanted to join the Tenkaichi Budokai tournament, right? The tournaments rules say that you can't wear armor and that's why Vegeta took it off. If you paid attention you'd know this.
Read my mind. From episode 1 I've been upset with the outfit regression. Or whatever episode of Super Vegeta showed up at haha
Maybe he got nostalgic lol
Dragon Ball Z: Vegeta's using Final Explosion to give up his life and kill an enemy he can't defeat normally.
Dragon Ball Super: Vegeta's using Final Explosion to give up his life and defeat an enemy whose ass he was just kicking with no problem. Also, he doesn't die. But it reminded you of Z, right?!
At least the One in super had a meaning
Yes It Is a cit, but damn vegeta death in the Buu saga Is stupid.
He Is a big baby in there
@Azulmagia
Thank you for reminding me of how much I hated that call back... And what's sad about is, it could have worked.
We could've had this emotionally driven fight as Vegeta saw what he used to be in Top, and tries to convince Top of the mistake he made. Top's overwhelming power and unwillingness to relinquish the lie he believed could've driven Vegeta into a corner. This would've led Vegeta to use the final explosion.
But instead we get a hollow call back, because "wow wasn't that moment cool?"
@@Mepphy99it's the other way around
@@steph03tyna72 the "emotional meaning" in vegeta death in the Buu saga Is bs
Vegeta pass from being a Mass murderer to someone Who loves his new companion. It's Just stupid
At least in super he Is motivated to do to the right thing
@@Mepphy99 Vegeta in Z sacrifice has a meaning he did that to atone from his sins and to save his family, in Super it was just a way to make you think" LOOK VEGETA DID THE SAME THING HE DID IN Z BUT DIDN'T DIE FOR PLOT" He could have ended it with the super Galick gun like in Xenoverse 2
"You're not dealing with the average saiyan warrior anymore"
“Yeah there it is swear he’s already said this”
NO NO NO
Frieza being boolied on DBZA
@@jktl bitch you're just jealous of my super saiyan swag
“OH. MY. GOD.”
You know the funny thing is I know you're playing me... But you're right.
The major issue with Vegeta in Super is that in the creative department of Toei (series directors and writers) there were many people who had varying opinions on how Vegeta should be characterised. So in some episode he would be written well, then in the others he wouldn't be.
Sounds interesting, can you go into detail
If you could, can you name episodes where’s he’s written well and not?
@@snkosen9798 Dragon Ball Super went through FIVE different series directors. The series director basically have the job overseeing the scripts and plot outlines. So if you have one series direction who helms the show in one way and another series direction who has a much different vision for how the show should be handled creatively, you're going to get inconsistently written episodes.
@@bleach1210115 I think Vegeta from the start of Super to the end of the FT arc was perfectly fine. It was during the recruitment episodes and the middle portion of the Universal Survival arc where his character writing wasn't good.
Lord Beerus this also may be that those arcs were just regurgitating what toriyama already wrote
Honestly, I still do love the moment with him dangling by his boot on some floating debris in the Tournament of Power and he starts hearing Bulma in his head telling him to get up.
I won't try to claim it was masterfully done or anything like that but it really just struck a wholesome cord with me. Maybe it was around the time that her VA passed away so it had a lot more punch to it. Who knows.
I thought that scene was done well too!
It was decent, but we heard the exact same emotional speech like... 4 times already throughout the arc? Was just predictable by that point IMO
Super is just a continuous "hey you remember that thing that you saw in Z?"
Idk
You're right
to be honest the only one that really annoyed me was the final explosion and how casually vegeta decides to use it and in the end he doesnt even die
@@pizzadeliveryspringtrap9152 ueah I woukd have rather not jad him use that at all. It kind of kills the nostalgia from the buu arc for me
Really? I must have missed the season of DBZ that had Super Saiyan God, Blue, Ultra Instinct, Beerus, Goku Black etc. Which season was that again?
I read Vegeta's Super arc as slowly admitting to himself that he views Goku as a friend rather than a foe, letting go of what happened in the Sayian Saga which eventually would pay off that small line at the end of DBZ where Vegeta watches Goku fly away with Uub and says "you can't fool me old friend".
Honestly I think Vegeta is the character that makes super for me, as he is the only character who seems to have stakes. Goku has no real emotional connections to his family, and piccolo( my favorite character) is not significantly used enough for his connection to Gohan to mean anything. Vegeta has a family, who he loves, and will do anything to protect it, this in my opinion makes him the character to watch in super.
Agreed.
Great point
He is the best written in Super. Which should tell you that the bar is so low...
@@Lord_Of_Night He isn't the best written character. Cabba is much better than him, is basically Gohan fused with Vegeta, which is why I love him so much.
@@jantheking7028 What I mean is, from the characters that originated in Z being written in Super. In order to underscore how the writing dipped in quality. Cabba is a Super original and we don't have any older material to compare him with.
Vegeta grew like 2 inches since Dragonball Z.
Character growth
He stopped training in high gravity
Heightperbolic Time Chamber 😂
@@brodiethegoaty849 😂😂😂
@@brodiethegoaty849 😂😂😂😂😂 Lmfaooo
I actually liked Vegeta in GT, it felt like he grew up
The problem in gt he is barely in it and some moment does Feel force i like gt but i should spécifié this
Preach
@@painvillegaming4119 that’s mostly a story problem, along with them trying to go back to the origins of dragon ball, that focused on adventure. Vegeta needed to be left on earth while trunks goku and pan went to space. He’s the only person on earth with Goku’s level of power, and so it’s up to him to defend it if goku isn’t available. The other problem is they focused more on goku, which I understand, he’s the main character, but I agree that vegeta had too little screen time. Perhaps they could’ve utilized him more in the shadow dragons saga, being paired with pan. As they fight the shadow dragons, Vegeta scolds and motivates pan so she can actually do things on their own
@@thelastarcadegamer6655 i disagree vegeta should have gone for god sake it the faith of the planete that is at stake plus bonus vegeta would not play around and just beat up every damn annoyance in gt
@@thelastarcadegamer6655 that would be fine if it felt like an adventure. It felt more like an opportunity for more comedy than it was for adventure which felt off considering how powerful they were.
I like vegeta's development in the moro arc. This vegeta is a lot more mature and selfless than his younger self. He's also haunted by his past and is trying to atone for the wrongs he did. He even swallowed his saiyan pride for the sake of protecting the galaxy from Moro.
And then Toyataro goes and says fuck all that he has to be ruthless again
@@rando9326 and then made him suck at it more than ever
all Vegeta does is hold L after L, when's it my guys turn to save the world??
@@Jack-fq6mq implying he wasn’t the voice of reason during the conflict when he wasn’t on his ultra ego trip, without him goku and granolah would’ve just fought to the death without knowing the real threat
Honestly, I really like what they did with Vegeta in Super. After the speech he delivered during the fight with Majin Buu, it is clear he does not desire to surpass Goku anymore and has accepted his being second. He even acknowledges that not even having loved ones to protect made him as strong as Goku. He stops pursuing power as such. In Super, with the arrival of Beerus, he realizes how weak and incapable of protecting his loved ones he is, and therefore his struggle to become stronger begins anew, completely changed. Throughout the whole entirety of Super, he wants to surpass his limits to protect what he cherishes. This comes to a climax during the fight Toppo, where he states that he, unlike Toppo, does not leave behind what he is to become stronger (like he did in the Majin Saga), but only becomes stronger to protect what he is. It is for him like facing his former self in a way.
TL;DR: In Z he pursues power as such, even using loved ones as “means” to surpass Goku, Super he becomes stronger to protect loved ones.
Also this super asked for a request for someone to become stronger. In the original series I don't think would ever do that. VEgeta has shown be humble father in comparison goku. Being respectful to the rest main cast. Vegeta is not detrimental to heroes like he was z.
I like this interpretation because it broadly aligns with how I view Vegeta in Super :D He is in some ways less interesting, but he's also figured out who he is, which makes him interesting in ways that are different than those in which he was interesting in Z.
This needs more upvotes
So is Vegeta now a generic shonen protagonist with the cliche of fighting to protect his loved ones? Oh and also I disagree with some of this. Yes, Vegeta wants to surpass his limits but you forgot that he still wants to surpass Goku and it was stated in one of the first episodes of dbs.
T - Bone your forget is not detrimental the cast as was z. In z a uptight, serious, causing a lot trouble for characters, starting conflicts, and argument between them. Super willing spend with family, take care of them, encourage his future son to be better than him, he also shown caring father and good husband, want trains with teacher rather than his own. Vegeta has been more laid back and chill be more respectful to others. Than he was in past.
So basically, Super lacks emotional weight in general. That's why its inferior to Z.
Yes sir
@Son Gohan This myth has got to die.
Toriyama wasn't "forced" to continue Z after Freeza. There was no plan to originally end the franchise at Namek.
And with the exception of Baby, GT's villains sucked hard. Goku Black/Zamasu is way better than any of them lol.
@Son Gohan Well said! Dragonball super is complete garbage. For the life of me I cannot believe that someone who experienced dbz back in the day would find any redeeming qualities in super.
@Son Gohan I just don't see it happening. The passion of a visionary creator is missing. And besides, the dumbass fanbase has approved of all the cheap nonsense they dished out in super. We are going to keep getting more of the same stuff, until dbz ends up becoming a distant memory. The damage done by super is immense.
Son Gohan goku Black was an amazing villain
The one thing I liked about Vegeta in super was him finally becoming humble and teachable for a bit. Then it stopped....
@QUEENDOM first time he'd let anyone train him I think?
@@dissonanceparadiddle hes never had a master besides whis so I dont think it stopped
Dissonance Paradiddle Super has no soul
@@masterfarr8265 it's very sanitized
Dissonance Paradiddle I think GT is a better show, it took risks, characters actually grew up, the concepts are really amazing and should be revisited like Broly, even Vegeta grew up instead of being regressed
"In order to express emotions, space and time are freely distorted"
So....talking is a free action?
Gungywamp NINE SECOND HAS PASSED!
@@Somethingwithoutatrace za warudo
According to the Rules as Written, yes, it is a free action.
It's actually backwards the Dragonball universe. The characters move faster than people can see. Heck, they move faster than people who can move faster than normal people can see, can see. Talking is the LONGEST part of the fight.
*DIO like this*
It’s telling that even the dragon balls themselves just don’t seem to matter anymore in Super.
The Dragonballs haven’t really mattered since Namek. They’ve basically just been a reset button.
Except...you know...how they were used to create Goku Black and the immortal Zamasu?
TheBlues32 those were the super dragoballs
@@ulyssesdiaz7651 So? In that case, the Dragonballs were used to bring back Freeza, turn Pilaf, Shu, and Mai into kids, find out about the Super Sayian God, and there was that filler episode where Goku was supposed to wish King Kai back to life.
@@ulyssesdiaz7651 And the show is called Dragonball "Super". Go figure. Let's not forget two arcs were people fighting over a wish on them.
Hi mark! I just wanted to say that your art has inspired me to improve my own skills. Thank you!
Wow the thumbnail is his art? That’s so good
Andrew Garfield all of his thumbnails on these new videos are his.
He's inspired me, too! My art has improved SO much lately and it feels amazing to actually be proud of something I drew for once.
Would really love a Zuko character dissection tbh 😩
He could do the whole series
The parallel connection of growth that aang and zuko have in avatar the last air bender could be a multi part series.
theres a lot of those though
@@alfa01spotivo So? None from Mark 👀
@@alfa01spotivo doesnt really matter, every youtuber has a different style and Mark happens to have an amazing style and it would be great to see his take on it
There is one major moment where Vegeta's changed, and that's how protective he's been portrayed of his daughter Bra - foregoing training and keeping up with Goku in order to take care of Bulma during her pregnancy, even turning down the invitation to the tournament itself because of it -> it lead directly to Whis taking action to help in that regard. He's also portrayed as very doting of Bra after she's born.
This, oddly enough, isn't as much a departure from the Vegeta we know from DBGT (he takes a lot of care of Bra there too), but he is quite different from the one we know from DBZ.
Sure, it's not a huge emotional through-line that is then employed in the major moments, except for, maybe, his final stand in the Tournament of Power, and it is generally only shown in gags which ,as you put it, are in scenes that you may very easily miss, but it is there, and it is a difference we got from Super.
You see the problem is people absolutely hate any change that makes a character weaker. Gohan for instance puts his studies and family life first yet everyone calls him a loser. These same people love mystic Gohan despite it being the biggest asspull of dbz.
@@diddlenfiddle7311 To be fair, the bang is bangin'
Diddle n Fiddle I never understood why people like ultimate gohan, he DOES NOTHING OF ANY RELEVANCE IN THE ARC, he gets fooled by super buu (who’s not even smart to begin with) and gets absorbed, THATS IT, and potential unleashed is THE MOST unearned power up in the history of power ups, he literally sits on the ground and old Kai does the rest, yeah, at the end of the day it’s a ritual that unleashed HIS true potential but he didn’t earn it, it was literally given to him, ultimate gohan is dumb and I dare anyone to give me actual reasons as to why one should like him other than “CaUSe HE’s STronG AnD COol”
@@diddlenfiddle7311 With Gohan, he *is* weaker for it. He neglects the thing that can really save his family: being strong. He doesn't need to earn a lot of money to provide for his family, since Mr. Satan basically pays all their bills. He doesn't train because he feels like he doesn't need to. His dad will always save the day, right?
Vegeta not wanting to go with Goku to train while Bulma is pregnant? That's Vegeta trying to right the wrong he did back in the Android Saga. He disappeared when Bulma was pregnant with Trunks and as we've seen with Vegeta (especially in the Manga), he's a man who carries his guilt with him for a LONG time. So him not going with Goku is him making amends for him not being there when Bulma was pregnant with Trunks/when Trunks was born.
That's why people are okay with Vegeta acting "weaker" and aren't okay with Gohan's portrayal.
@@diddlenfiddle7311 I don't know that many hated Vegeta becoming a dad in GT. In my opinion a much better iteration than the version we got in Super.
Bigger asspull than Fusion and SSJ3 Gotenks? I don't think so hahaha. At least in Gohan's case it had been established throughout the series that he had this power, even by Guru who didn't have enough time to untap Gohan's potential.
“You may have invaded my mind and my body, but there is one thing a Saiyan always keeps-his PRIIIIIDE!”
Love that quote from good ol’ Vegeta tbh :)
Mark you can't hide forever
You gotta make a Dragon Ball GT Video.
Lmao
Welp
That's gonna be his most viewed video
indeed
That'd be cool
Vegeta is my favorite character from all the Dragonball franchise.
Me too
Good taste.
Or kid goku
Same here👍🏾
P Ariza you basically saying you only like his hairs as he vegeta super shares nothing with z lol
Honestly Vegeta and Roshi are some of my favorite developing characters in dragonball. Roshi got this treatment in Z because he became completely irrelevant against galaxy superpowers. His last real moment I can remember is the aftermath of the android saga fallout regretting not being there to save his pupils. They tried to bring him back in super and he did have a cool moment but this character couldve been used far better. Imagine Roshi being the one to initially defend Goku against the androids when he was sick and piccolo saving him. Or SOMETHING I really loved that character in dragonball, he is entirely the reason Goku is who he is.
hey roshi got one of the sickest scenes in the manga where he holds off jiren for like a minute teaching goku the principles of UI
the fact that roshi’s pure skill allowed him to hold off the strongest character in the series was one of the coolest in the franchise, it reminded me of his fight with goku back in dragon ball where he was overexerting himself in order to make sure goku would never stop trying to learn and grow, the whole scene in the manga i’d highly recommend reading even if you don’t read the rest of the manga, i genuinely think its one of the coolest moments in the series
I personally really liked GT Vegeta. His look was pretty cool and I liked the character development.
You've done a really good job articulating that the writers for Super, and maybe Toriyama himself, have lost sight of what makes both Goku and Vegeta as well so interesting to begin with. Really enjoyed your break downs on both.
Vegeta: Has a mid-life crisis
Everyone: lol same bro i feel
Goku: Has a midlife crises(Tournament of power)
Everyone: Come on, Goku. Always trying to fight.
He now has a worse one in the case of Moro.
I don't know if I'll ever finish watching Super. I knew I'd struggle to get into it after watching Resurrection F. Near the end when it looked like Vegeta was gonna save the day for once but instead stands there for a solid 30 seconds like an idiot while Frieza charges up an attack and blows up the planet they're on resulting in the time travel fix ending where Goku saving the day and laughs it off. I'm fine with the idea of Goku always saving the day but don't tease me with Vegeta almost getting the spotlight for once. It's like an owner waving a big juicy steak in front of their dog going "what's this boy? You want it!? What's this? Who's a good boy!?" Then eating it and laughing.
For me, as a life long humble servant of my prince, these are the moments that super did that made me smile, and appreciate how vegeta had changed over time.
#1 vegeta gave everything he could to stomach taking his family to the fair in the beginning, even though it was clearly killing him. But, he made a promise, and he wasnt about to let his son down, not again.
#2 vegeta could claim he didnt care for his family the way one should, but when his bulma was slapped, he achieved a power greater than he ever had on his own. He went toe to toe and boxed with god, and it didnt matter that he knew he couldnt win, he refused to go out like a bitch, and let someone get away with bringing harm to the mother of his child.
#3 vegeta was willing to become a god of destruction if he needed to, just so he could train with whis (something that the writers must have completely forgotten about since i dont think its been touched upon at all since, maybe in the manga? I personally loved the idea that vegeta would be trained to one day become a god of destruction, and i really hope they still pursue this. While training with whis, he becomes more calm, patient, quiet, controlled. all the things needed to utilize god ki and achieve SSB. What he was able to accomplish on his own in the 6-8 months before goku arrives, easily put him far beyond gokus ability, but as usual the writers let goku overpower vegeta in no time, fuck goku.
#4 In many ways, i felt vegeta had developed a patience that he previously struggled greatly with, as i stated above. He watched goku fight frieza and just studied what was going on, learning from the fight, rather than allowing his anger and need for revenge to cloud his judgment. By the time its his turn, frieza couldnt touch him if he wanted to, and vegeta finally was able to get a win for all of the saiyan race.
#5 when future trunks arrived again, vegeta wasnt as cold to him, because he had watched him die once and we saw how terrified that made him. This time around, he was hard on the boy, but also so damn proud of the man he became. When he saw the people he saved, the care he had for mai when she was hurt, learned of bulmas death, it all hit vegeta hard. I believe i saw a proud papa smile on his face when trunks was able to resuscitate mai. It made me happy to see this reaction from him because i knew right then and there that vegeta knew he had more to fight for than ever. It showed when he trained his ass off in time chamber before the second fight with rose, and even when he trained trunks for a moment back in our time. That father son galick gun may not have had the kind of weight it needed, but for me i was so happy to see this moment, and still am.
#6 Vegeta quickly becomes excited to learn of saiyans on another universe, and just as quickly as he was excited, cabba was immediately able to piss him off by giving up in battle. He used his rage to smack some sense into cabba, and teach him a lesson. He was able to help him achieve something greater, without showing weakness. He gave cabba something to strive for, and a reason to be a better saiyan for the sake of all of his people. He single handedly changed the lives of an entire planet, and he just doesnt know it yet.
#7 before the top started, vegeta refused to leave bulmas side while she was pregnant. he would gladly let the universe end entirely than to miss the birth of his child again, and to leave his bulma alone to deal with it all again without him. He used to allow his pride to define what a warrior needed to be, but now he allowed his pride to define what a father and husband should be, and i loved this choice so much. its only once whis speeds up the process, and hes able to hold her for the first time, that he realizes he has so much more to fight for than he ever imagined, and it made him stronger, not weaker as he used to feel.
#8 in the top itself, not only was vegeta able to surpass his limits on his own, without having to catch up to goku for once, he was able to use what he had learned over time and become more of a devastating fighter. by the time we reach the end, vegeta was able to achieve ssbe, for once his own transformation of sorts, and he was able to channel his love for his family, and his desire to avenge cabba and the new saiyan planet he hoped to be able to be a part of one day. Everything he ever cared about flashed before his eyes and it made him stronger again, and he surpassed his limits once more. then once that wasnt enough, and he gave every last breath he had fighting jiren knowing he couldnt win to buy more time for the others, he gave his last bit to goku on the way out, admitting he knew goku was always going to be above him, and he accepted that. It gave me pride to see this, even knowing it hurt vegeta to have to reach this point.
That is all i can remember at the moment, but i felt we got some great moments in super, even if they werent as impactful as dbz was narratively. I am also loving his change in the manga moro arc where he refuses to let another namekien suffer while hes around, he apologizes to them for his past, and he even goes to yardrat to not only make himself better, but give the people he cares about a chance to survive. Vegeta has grown so much, and surpassed goku everywhere it counts for me, and it makes me proud to serve my prince.
Thank you!!! Finally someone gets it
Exactly
The recent DBS manga chapters confirm your points. Vegeta is becoming more patient, calm and wise (Yardrat training). He is moving on from a mere warrior to a master/teacher.
That's where I see his real character growth during DBS. Especially the conversations with Cabba and Trunks really showed that, and I think it will show even more when he returns from Yardrat. So he is not shallow as a character, but instead I think the show just has issues communicating all that to the viewer.
Perhaps that will change in the Moro Arc, which seems to have a more serious tone to it and will hopefully bring across Vegeta's serious/mature side better.
I really love how well structured, well researched, and overall interesting your videos like this are. Keep up the good work!
Well theres one little change i noticed in Super, Vegeta being more willing to learn from others, Whis and the Yardrats
I love vegeta in super he went from a bastard evil lunatic to being a protector a father husband and a good person. I dont think of vegeta in super as another character arc but a continuation of z where z ended with him realizing what he needed a family where super shows how he treats and protects those he loves and his wanting for redemption from the past. in the moro arc he saved a namakian village like in z he killed one.
Booooring
Dominik Zgazivoda exactly, theres no reaosn for his character anymore might as well backseat him like the rest
Fuck off boomer
I don't think the Vegeta in super feels related to the one in Z ignoring 'character arcs'. He's really childish, antisocial and obnoxious. He's like a way less cool version of Piccolo at the start of Dragon ball Z. Contrast that with the Vegeta in GT. He's clearly heavily entrenched with his family, looks after them, still has that rivalry with Goku so a lot of the same elements. Except Vegeta is also charismatic, funny at times, likeable and at times badass. He's definitely not antisocial in GT. You can easily see how the Vegeta of the buu arc became the man he was in GT.
Not that I'm defending GT here.
@@dominikzgazivoda6593 Yeah, good writing is boring just because it's not badass or whatever.
I just got something pointed out from Vegeta's fight against Toppo.
He gets fixated on overpowering Toppo head-on because him discarding his ideals for power mirrors what Vegeta did when he became Majin Vegeta.
Beating Toppo with the same attack he used to redeem himself showed both of them that leaving their beliefs is not the way to get power, and sounds like excellent writing to me.
I agree with your premise. However, Vegeta did go through some major changes. For the first time in his life, he accepted training from someone. And he became a teacher himself. I actually thought it was out of character for him to just sit back and accept Goku as being better then him. What always made him relatable is his strive to be the best. That’s a very humanoid trait. It would have been boring if he just became another background character who waited for Goku to show up.
End of Z. “Your better than me Kakarot...
Beginning of Super: “I will surpass you! I am the best’’
Sigh.....really just going backwards with character development lol.
And don't forget, Toriyama even changed the original ending of the Dragon Ball manga, with Vegeta damning Goku saying that he'll surpass him.
End of Super, Vegeta sacrifices himself and gives the rest of his power to goku, knowing that only he can win the tournament (it's basically the same as z)
And right after the battle, goku say that he cannot go U.I anymore, making so that both of them stay at the "same" power levels
The development in both characters is stuck. They do not grow anymore, and that's what makes Super fells so bad, for me it's even worse than Gt.
Gt gave me a lot of emotions and memorable moments in it's seccond half, and all that super has to offer are some cool battles with fanservice and references... it's just like heroes at this point
RadicalLaRuby I was ok with that in the manga tho it just showed that he admits that goku is better than him but he’s not gonna give up on trying to surpass him which doesn’t really revert his character
I dont think so just because you admit that someone is better than you NOW doesn't mean that you can't still grow and surpass them eventually
Akuro Sasamiya well to be fair they don’t really develop in Gt either like vegeta asks goku to fuse with him (after being absent/taken over/17’s punching bag)but that’s all I can think of comparing super to heroes is a bit of a over exaggeration.
Yeah, but change in a character or development is not always required to create a well written character. Dark knight’s joker, for example, doesn’t change throughout the story, but is still considered as one of the greatest characters of all. In super, we see a Vegeta after his arc, after all his struggle of good and evil. If Vegeta was to have any sort of change in that aspect, it would’ve made his development in Z quite irrelevant, so what we do see in Super is not a character’s change, but his nuances. Super is about humanizing Vegeta more, revealing that he is different than we think he is, he’s a lot more caring, a lot more considerate and shows to be an actually good person, not only by what side he chooses to fight for, but also in actions and behavior. Vegeta was probably the best written character in Super. I’m not saying he was perfectly written, but the staff took him in the right direction.
Great video Mark! Sadly Super being Dragon Balls greatest hits seemed to way it down heavily. I think a series of how you would have wrote Super like the Buu Saga world rock. Maybe do it arc by arc? Love the Anatomy series
okay but what about his moment cabba? when he literally plays a role as mentor for the young saiyan?
He said he doesn't grow much at all. That doesn't mean "at all".
Also, one moment does not a good arc make.
@Forever Zenith well to be fair the idea of him being a mentor to someone does sound appealing but then again super didn't expand on anything of that sort and cabba just doesn't seem interesting to me at all
A good idea that went nowhere. Typical of super
Oh you mean the arc they dont expand on at all.
All the hype in super was just that... Hype. Everyones hyped up but never showcased.
@@psychoticdaizyproductions569 you the type of person to like demon slayer
I will always love vegeta, but I hate how super reckoned his development during the kid buu fight which turned him into the good person he is at the end of Z and he could actually have a civil/friendly conversation with goku
Expect in super they still talk to each other and super is before the end of z. Super is in the middle of the majin buu saga and the end of z. That's why goten and trunks aren't fully grown and why there is no uub
That's why i hate dbs anime and love the manga
@@Inviabledude45 but it was the "your are number one" speech during the kid buu fight when he changed. Super makes him the character he was at the start of the buu saga. That thumbs up vegeta gives at the end of the kid buy fight, super vegeta would never do that and im angry with that
I don’t remember him ever having a civil conversation with Goku. The closest they got to that was a thumbs up
@@timedragon5492 I know people hate gt and it's not canon and crap, but it takes place after the kid buy fight just like super and yes there are points of vegeta in being well vegeta, but there is also a lot of friendly conversation between the two and vegeta is just more laid back in general
Man your videos are so captivating. Fantastic work, thank you!!!
Vegeta’s “change” moments you mentioned aren’t exactly spectacular. But what about when he’s portrayed as a flat character? Like with Cabba? When the writers aren’t trying to keep Vegeta a positive change character, he can be pretty compelling in Super. The moments are brief but charming.
Making a point to go back and rewatch all your content (priority to Dragon Ball) again. Sucks to see what happened over the holidays and sucks to not see as many videos come from your channel. With that, I know I a lot of us are waiting to hear more of your thoughts on the upcoming movie this April. You’re one of the biggest voices to a lot of folks on DB character progression and story/narrative arcs. Too understandable that you’re probably still apprehensive over the whole ordeal I’m sure you’re still battling. Regardless, have to let you know, the viewers still love you Mark. You’re a talented dude and we haven’t forgotten… Haven’t forgotten your talent, the joy you bring folks through your content, the knowledge or the deeper inter workings of plot that you impart, and your genuinely positive and hopeful spirit. Again man, looking forward to the next projects. Gonna keep supporting and running up the numbers on what you still have on the platform.
Take care of yourself!
Very Respectfully,
Ken
Recurrent Viewer
Brian Drummond- YOU WONT ESCAPE MY WRATH!
Chris Sabat- HERE IT COMES! A LITTLE GOING AWAY PRESENT!
Super-I'LL EAT YOUR WHOLE RACE!
Me=SOLD!
First, love the DB Lofi. I practice Martial arts with those exact tracks. Love it.
Second, you nailed Vegeta in DBZ, no question there.
But for DBS, I feel like you may have missed the point. Vegeta's story in Super isn't just because of Super being a call back. It HAS to be a call back or else Z wouldn't have even mattered. He won't change because he has finally found balance. Until that balance was shook by the GoD, and then he desired divinity AND EARNED IT. We saw him cater to a sleeping Beerus, and fallow a Sensei (Whis) with as much respect as the prince has. His desire for power will always be driven by personal means, but now it's MORE than just trying to be the best. It's about being the BEST version of himself. IDK man, usually you're a little more upbeat about these kinda things. I'd like you to dive into a deeper analysis of Vegeta's Flat Arc in super. Just my opinion.
Idk man, I think Z Vegeta would have mattered without all the excessive call backs but i digress
@Lucille nailed it. DBZ is full of callbacks to the original DB series. It was just done better and in a way that didn't isolate fans but made us more curious as to WTF happened before Z (reflecting on when DBZ first hot the west).
@Lucille what are you talking about bro?
All Im saying is that if they needed to do call backs, they didnt need to make it so heavy handed like they did with Vegeta. They could do it tactfully
Dat music tho
I liked seeing Vegeta finding his new way in life and acting on it in Super. Hes now a family-loving good guy, albeit grumpy and I like how hes embracing that to an extent.
Very interesting video dude and you've highlighted a lot of elements I didn't consider when it comes to Super.
I enjoyed Super overall and it dedinitely had some great moments with some of the new characters and how it turned Frieza from someone I didn't care to see again, to someone I love all over again with. But it's definitely true that Super didn't really have much in the way of character progression especially for Vegeta. Which is a shame considering his journey throughout DBZ. Hopefully the manga is plotting out a proper and course of action for the DB universe which will be more enriching and satisfying.
Articulated in the best way, good job man!
Your bit about novice writers around the 8 minute mark is one of the most profound things I’ve heard in a while in regards to writing and the process of making a good story. Man you kick ass mark! Keep it up!
Mad respect for adapting Vegeta's DBZ nose for your thumbnail art of him. As much as I like his more proportional design now, his DBZ design is nostalgic.
When Vegeta acknowledged Goku as a person and how kind hearted of a Saiyan he is towards his friends, family and even his enemies That's where his character got a lot of respect for me. Helping Goku to save his family, his friend, and the world itself. To compare Vegeta to how he was in the Saiyan Saga till now it's really compelling to see from his character.
Dude your videos are great, I really enjoy watching all the work you put into making them and I love the awesome analysis you make. Have you ever considered making videos about Avatar: the last Airbender? I love that show, and I feel like it's one of the most interesting and we'll written stories out there. I hope it's not only the hype because I grew watching it, and I'll be awesome to see one of your analysis about it. This video reminded me of Zuko. Anyway, great work keep it up!
It appears like The type of growth this beloved sayian went through in Z is like lighting in a bottle for the new writers at Toei. I hope if Super does get a sequel, this wrong will be righted with rich character dialogue and the event setups that make a spectacular scene have emotional weight behind it because it's not just Vegeta who needs it, it's literally at least 90% of the cast members, Espically Beerus, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo, Whis, and DBS Broly. Even if Toriyama has to write EVERYTHING.
Super isnt terrible but it just feels like a glorified appendix to Z,and not it's own new thing.
This was my problem with DBS from the announcement of it. The entire concept is a compromise. If you set a story in between two other parts of an existing story, you can't change the characters in any meaningful way unless you alter the original ending.
This is why GT, for its flaws, is better. It's an actual sequel that progresses the story and characters. Super isn't a sequel. It's like the Lion King 1 1/2 of anime: it answers questions nobody asked.
Kami damn! I came for the video & ended up at a roast! Lion King 1 1/2 off anime!!!
Tell me about it! I really wish Super had something more to it. But it just feels like a huge mass of filler. "Or a What-if story"
I still remember when people thought Super was going take place after the manga's ending, with Goku training/going on adventures with Pan and Uub and one of them taking on Beerus.
This is a professional, mature analysis and will be completely lost on all the people grasping at their memories of loving DBZ as a kid.
Dragonball, like Star Wars and the big names of DC/Marvel, has become part of the global cultural consciousness. That means huge economic weight. Those managing that weight are in a constant battle between wanting the hearts of fans and wanting the disposable income of bored children. Yes, a lot of bad writing comes from people blindly imitating good writing, but a lot also comes from pure dismissive contempt for the customers.
I've still been hopeful that super was a chance for the studio to get back into the flow of things and the real magic of dragonball would return if they picked up the story after Goku and Uub's fight at the tourney. I can dream.
While I do agree that dbs didn't get any where near as close as Z did with Vegeta's arc, I wouldn't agree to the statement you made about Vegeta pretty much not changing at all in super. One of my favorite moments in dbs was towards the end of the TOP arc when he finally accepted to growing on his own direction instead of chasing after Goku like he has his whole life. He accepted himself as a different person with different strengths and weakness and decided he would be growing on his own instead of always trying to replicate Gokus success. And while it wasnt as memorable as his progress in the Z arcs, I still feel it's an incredibly important change in his character and opens the door for him to make new discoveries about himself and continue to develop his character further (such as maybe even having exclusive forms to Vegeta. Just like Zamasu got Super Saiyan Rose). Still a great video tho mark. Big fan of your channel and can't wait to see that GT video :)
Honestly, the best place for Vegeta's character to go is for him to not only become stronger than Goku by a wide margin once again, but for him to also fulfill the role or Earth's Protector while Goku is absent, dealing with another problem off world. For a negative situation to occur (Especially with Freeza) and have Vegeta be the true last line of defense would be the best growth his character could undergo at this time. For him to take on the burden and responsibilities that Goku usually does, his arc would finally come full circle as the man who came to earth to destroy it, to him becoming its best and strongest protector.
I see this as a good solution. I was so angry in gt when they wasted the opportunity to make this the case versus super 17. Vegeta should have gotten ssj4 then and saved the world before Goku even made it back. This doesn't alter the final ark much really. They wouldn't tag team the dragons out of their saying desire to fight so Omega shenron still happens but then Vegeta a d Goku finish with a combo attack instead of the same ole sb
Now this is my kind of comment.
@Michael Jordan "Just admit it, you are salty that Goku is always one step ahead of him.
" Damn fucking right I am. I'm ALWAYS Goku salty. I took a fucking tally while watching Super.
@Michael Jordan No. It has nothing to do with salt. My thing is, Vegeta is supposed to be Goku's rival but the problem is, Goku is always shown to be superior to Vegeta in every way which limits their rivalry. Because of this, Vegeta's character remains stagnate and hasn't developed since his fight with Buu and the story is always forced to come up with new stronger and stronger antagonists for Goku to defeat. It means to Goku, Vegeta isn't a rival anymore but a sparing partner and for Vegeta, Goku isn't a rival but basically just a goal.
The best rivalry I can think of off the top of my head is honestly, Atem/Yugi Moto and Seto Kaiba. Kaiba is a man of pure power, he's got money, resources and his style reflects this attitude being that of pure offense and destruction. Yugi is someone who's basically weak, comes from a lower middle class, his cards aren't incredibly powerful in terms of offense and defense but he relies on his friends for inspiration and support with his style focusing on strategy and disruption. Its not Yugi's power that makes him better than Kaiba but its his tactics and skill (And plot armor) that makes him better. That's what's missing from the element between Goku and Vegeta.
Goku and Vegeta were at their best when Vegeta was the superior force and Goku was the underdog, using his different techniques and resilience along with his friends to beat Vegeta. For their Rivalry to hold the same weight it used to have while progressing their characters forward instead of retreading familiar ground, Goku and Vegeta need their current dynamic flipped while maintaining their new growing perspectives. At the end of the Broly movie and with Uub, Goku is taking on the role of a teacher, passing down his strengths to the next generation like he tried to do with Gohan. Meanwhile, Vegeta, the man who pride himself on being a cold hearted murderer and destroyer becoming and protector and savoir who actually defeats a main villain is the best way for their characters to actually develop. Its far from salt, I just want them to actually grow and unlike you, I take story and character development seriously and clearly, so do many fans of Dragonball which is why many find Dragonball Super to be as shallow as it is.
That's dumb. Goku is the main character. You can tell by the way Dragon Ball is written that it's not that type of story. Yeah, there are other memorable characters, but the entire narrative revolves around Goku. That's like if Hiei replaced Yusuke or if Polnareff replaced Jotaro.
First time I saw the comment section with not many comments yet.
Amazing video Mark.
Super honestly made me question Japan's ability to write a good story. It honestly feels like Toriyama and Toyotarou aren't even fans of their own work.
I love what they've done to vegeta in super. Making him a family man who would give up everything for his son and wife has progressed his character. And now hes finally split from goku's footsteps.
So that is why the only Vegeta scene I really remember from Super is the my Bulma line.
Super wasn't perfect and I do have an issue of certain Vegeta moments, but what about the moment Vegeta attempted to go Ultra Instinct, his promise to Cabba, his fights in the Universe 6 tournament showing his very cerebral fighting ability, even his presence in the TOP, he had some good character moments, and we understand more of what he cares about truly and that he truly loves his family and life on Earth. To the point that he refused to participate in the TOP because Bulma was still pregnant.
At least the Moro arc told an excellent story with Vegeta
Vegeta peaked in the buu saga imo.
Majin vegeta is my favorite version of him too.
*sees titles*
"wait what, vegeta had a sequel arc?"
*after video*
"oh wait, not really"
It has nothing to do with Super being Super and everything to do with Vegeta having finished a gigantic character arc at the end of Z. He was still going through the throes of that in Super.
He came to realize that he was CONTENT with having a family and living a simple life. Super shows that in full force, with him attempting to opt out of a tournament in favor of being there for his growing family. The first few episodes of Super show him fulfilling his promise to Trunks to take him to the park.
Sure, it may not be as dramatic as turning evil and sacrificing himself to try (and fail) to kill the big bad, but it's true to form for Vegeta.
Where people believe that Super ruined his character are the times where he still strives to exceed Goku. Change is not done in a day. Try to break a habit and you will find yourself slipping every now and then. Vegeta's relationship with Goku is more of a healthy rivalry than an unhealthy obsession. By the end, he openly cheers for Goku to defeat Jiren "for us." His rivalry is more of a hobby, with his family being his obsession (but one he tries to hide).
I feel like Dragon Ball Super did two things really good, one in the Tournament of Power was him getting mad at Toppo for losing his pride and telling Jiren that he will never leave his pride, that is something different I have seen in any Anime Character. Second in the Moro Arc like he said that its time for him to payback people on Namek because of how many torture and trouble he has caused them (something like that), for me it shows that he has regrets on what he did to different planets as well not only Namek but other planets he's destroyed or conquered.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. First though, I need to say I love you and your videos, and also that even though I don't agree with all of them, I deeply respect your content, presentation, and intellect. Thank you so very much for your hard work
Super is fucking garbage.
Hm. It’s interesting cause I feel like I agree and disagree at the same time. Vegeta doesn’t really grow, and there’s no pressure on him to do so really from an emotional standpoint right, I get that. And I understand why that is boring, but what was Vegeta supposed to do? Some say he reverted backwards, but idk about that. When he saw there were other saiyans in other universes he decided he wanted to teach one as his pupil and even asked to visit their home planet. He protected and fought for Trunks against Goku Black and showed that he loves Trunks still and would never want to see him fall again like he did against Cell.
To me, it might not be growth, but it shows that Vegeta still cares. So when it all comes down to it and he’s up against Jiren at the very end, with no more power left to fight, he still stands. Because he’s trying to protect what he needs. And he understands that now because of the growth from Z. And then in the end, he realized the better fighter was still there, and gave his last energy to Goku, because Goku was number 1.
Of course Vegeta is still cocky, arrogant, and wants to prove he’s the best. Why would they throw that personality out the window just because he grew to realize he needed his family. Vegeta in super doesn’t need to grow, because Super was about fighting for what you need. Fighting for survival. That’s why they fought against Beerus to start, that’s why they fought against Freiza once more, that’s why the Tournament of Power happened.
Sure, you can still believe it’s bad writing to not have an emotional stake for growth, but it’s not like they don’t have emotion at all.
It’s interesting. And I just want to say, I love the video, love Dragon Ball, and love Vegeta! Thanks!
To me, Vegeta arc ended in the Buu saga. Mark kind tackle of a bit in Toriyama writing for Gohan in the Buu saga. Toriyama doesn't make new arcs for establishing characters.
It is the reason why many of the supporting characters don't have arcs any more because all of them have a completion.
@@brucebanana4486 Yeah, and that's exactly why I think Super is fine in the way Vegeta is handled. He makes no remarkable changes, but there is no need to. The best thing to do is allow him to hold and maintain his natural perspective and personality and that's exactly what he does. And its fun! He gets to train and get better while also having his family. No longer the split between the want and need. There are lots of things you can say about Super to say its got bad writing, but I think saying Vegeta doesnt change and thats bad, is just kinda wrong...
@@D34doneTTV I just have to say I really like your comments here, it feels like Vegeta in Super is a character that has his life sorted out in a much better, healthier way. His attitude towards training & his desire to be the best are traits that become admirable even on a realistic level, whereas in Z, those same traits were harmful and self-destructive. With a character like him, that spent decades being a ruthless monster, I think it's a little okay to just show us how far he's come without an involved sideplot.
I would have liked more than what we got, but I'm also happy with it, you know? He's my favourite, I would have killed for a new character arc, but Super has a different feel that it's going for so I don't necessarily feel robbed of anything.
@@electrocast EXACTLY! That's exactly why I said I both agree and disagree with the premise of the vid. His arc came full circle and is complete. He got what he needed and now has no pressure to change emotionally. Would it be awesome to see more Vegeta? OF COURSE! Vegeta is awesome and he's always a super fun character to use his perspective of dragon ball. But did the writing become worse because they decided Vegeta didnt need to change a lot or go through a full side arc? No, not in my opinion. Super isnt perfect, but they did a fine job with Vegeta imo.
Damn, well put. 👏
Hey mark love your videos!
I've always commented on how vegetas character development took a step back in the same way his height did.
Keep doing these videos. I take your analysis and try to apply to my stories.
As you were detailing the sacrifice part, I was already planning how I want Vegeta to fall under Narak's control, kill Trunks by mistake, leading him to reinforce his false belief in the lie so he can protect his ego, defeat Goku and ultimately lose his will to do anything after having achieved what he had set to do - go back to the way he was in the past and become the strongest being in the universe. Gotta come up with his redemption arc though...
I'm thinking that far ahead and I have only 4 chapters done... -_-
I'm never getting to that point...
4:42 That smile always haunts me
Appreciated the Eizouken clip you used :)
OMG YES I NEEDED THIS OMG YEE
Nice video as always! Vegeta pinnacle as a character was his sacrifice against Bu, and somehow it"s redemption coming from the dead is somewhat related to reincarnation, something that even Piccolo mentions. Vegeta in Super seems a "Partner in Crime" of Goku, at least untill Moro's Arc where now it seems to develop a little bit. Overall the best character in the series so far, the Prince of all Saiyans!
vaaaagetaaah ~ King Nappa, DBZA
Lipe TopTop NOOOOOOOOOOOO-
"Hello, this thing on?
*clears throat*
You are now thinking about what Zarbon did to your body while you were unconsious..."
Goddamnit Nappa
I personally think vegeta was so rarely respected after the Freeza saga it’s sickening
I don't know, dragon ball kind of wrote itself into a corner. And that kind of happened from the very begining, it introduces a new character with a new arc to explore and then... since they already worked with the core values of that characters they have to introduce a new character. Toriyama kind of let vegeta have a long development, but consider picoro, he didn't change at all after the first arc of dragon ball, or ten shin han. They already went through their journey, so super had to introduce a new character, beerus, which is if you think about it, the vegeta of dragon ball super.
You can't look at Vegeta in modern Dragon Ball without looking at the iterations written by Toriyama himself. Res F and Broly are interesting case studies because they both follow what has become the standard DBS template of Goku as the main protag, Vegeta as the secondary protag (Battle of Gods was more transitionary). And in those, Vegeta is written as fairly apathetic to what's going on around him. He expresses more emotion at having to fuse with Goku, or being told he thinks too much in battle, or Goku trying to argue why it was a good idea to bring back Freeza, than he does to two Saiyans with a vendetta showing up out of the blue to kill him. You get the sense Toriyama, the comedy writer, is mainly keeping him around because he likes his "bickering best buds" dynamic with Goku. People harped on him not "getting the kill" on Freeza in Res F as if that actually mattered, but I thought it was refreshing that Vegeta himself didn't seem to care. While that apathy doesn't leave much room for growth, I'll take it over the self-righteousness and repetitive character beats the DBS anime and manga indulge in. If Toriyama just likes him as a foil then more power to him, but we (and Toyo, and the Toei writers) should stop acting like there'll ever be more to him than what we got in Z.
He's a victim of his own popularity. Everybody loved Vegeta, but also lamented that he never caught up to Goku in the end (missing the point of the ending of the Buu saga) and now with the new material, Toriyama, Toei and Toyo are happy to indulge the fans cos they'll eat it up.
I agree with all of this and Vageta was my favorite character in Super.....that should tell you how low the bar was set.
flawless analysis . Someone had to put this into words.
This is the reason the team 4 stars won't make any db abridged episode based upon gt nor super. They both lack in structure, identity, product recognizability . There are no actual scene where the fan would be like "lol yeah that's what the dialogue would had been more likely". 10/10 for this vid
The thumbnail looks sick. Mark really is going even further beyond with that drawing.
Great video, glad to see an Anatomy of Anime post again.
I gotta ask. Mark how the hell did you learn to draw so dang well
Practice
I really want to see a movie of the adventures of young Vegeta,Raditz,and Nappa
I liked how vegeta became a mentor to Cabba. Giving him a guided introduction to become a super Sayain helped out during the TOP. Vegeta felt more like someone who was immersed in the reality they are in. Good video
This is one of those channel's I'm super happy to see a new vid from!!
I honestly think his development in GT was more noteworthy than Super. Yeah, a lot of people complained that Vegeta would never use Bulma’a blitz wave machine to gain SSJ4 because of his pride, but I think that was the point of the scene. Vegeta at that point knew there was more to stake than his pride, and he was willing to put it aside to save the world. Hell, he was the one that suggested using fusion to best Omega Shenron. That speaks volumes for how much he’s matured since Z. Super kinda feels like we’re on repeat most of the time. Vegeta learning that Goku will always be stronger than him in TOP was something he already knew at the end of the Buu Saga. His discomfort at the thought of fusion is just a running gag that’s going to get old if Gogeta or Vegito make future appearances. The one thing I feel that was somewhat new was his relationship with Cabba, but because they have little screen time together throughout the show it ultimately feels incomplete.
I haven't watched the video yet. So all I have to say right now is that the Vegeta drawing in the thumbnail is TOP NOTCH! Totally classic Vegeta! His Namek saga look can't be beat!
Nah, I think Vegeta's character development gets too much praise.
Starting from Dragon Ball characters have made similar transformations, only they dont constantly revert back to how they were before the transformation.
Just like what Piccolo had said... when Vegeta dies he wont meet the same fate Goku did when he died.
Vegeta seems to be the only character that doesnt suffer the full consequences of his actions. each time he did, he is brought back to life and instantly forgiven.
he for some reason still has this urge to kill.
super just gave him something to be interested in other than killing and destroying stuff and that was his family.
Finally someone else that doesn't see Vegeta's growth like its a masterpiece, haha. Good point about consequences... you're right, now that I think on it. His growth isn't too different than Tenshinhan nor Piccolo's, tbh, except he gets a wife at the end.
The fact he reverts makes it that much better. He doesn't just fight goku or beat up a kid for six months and dramatically change his entire outlook on good and evil.
I find it to be more believable that he does revert back to his old self sometimes. It wasn't contained with a single fight with goku nor a training arc with gohan. It literally took maybe a decade give or take for vegeta to truly change which makes sense for someone with a past and personality like his. As for not having to face the consequences of his actions I agree with to a degree however he does try to make amends for his past deeds which is shown in the moro arc with him being highly protective of the namekians
@@weridplusho Exactly. I look at Piccolo and Tien and all the stuff they went through to either make amends or just awaken to their true selves and think those have been the strongest transformations in the entire series.
@@imarealone_0076 Him reverting shows that he isn't going through any growth. Vegeta is like 40 years old and his first instinct when someone raises up on him is to kill them, and no one bats an eye. Piccolo doesn't make a full change until he merges with Kami. What Piccolo was born to do and his actions that led up to his final development show that he has undergone the best character development.
Great as always! Keep it up!
I just realized all my Vegeta favourite moments are all from Z
Super as a whole seems to lack understanding of their characters (at least the anime, I haven’t read the manga yet).
Goku’s lack of book-smarts and lackadaisical/naive attitude in Z are mistaken for dumbness and a lack of self-awareness which is borderline painful to watch in Super. Vegeta’s focus on honor and strength are replaced with an at-times bratty stubbornness and excessive arrogance which make him fight far too poorly considering the fact he’s been fighting his whole life. They feel like caricatures written by people who’ve never watched Dragon Ball. They occasionally nail some satisfying scenes (Vegeta’s speech while fighting Goku Black was particularly badass imo), but more often than not they’re just exasperating.
Some people disregard Z fans , claiming they’re blinded by nostalgia, but even new fans like myself (I just got into Dragon Ball this May) can tell the difference in the characters and storytelling and appreciate the maturity of the original; sure it wasn’t great on all fronts, but it was better-structured and far more satisfying to watch as a result.
I have to disagree on regards of Vegeta vs Toppo. The fight is precisely to show the audience how much Vegeta has grow as a character. If in the Buu saga he gave up everything for power, now he fights someone who does the same thing.
Also, the fight was able to turn one of Vegeta's most proemient flaws - his pride - as one of his streghts. Today, he is actually too pride to give up the other things he has accomplished, especially regarding his family. To him, this are no longer "unnecessary things", as Toppo claims.
So his Final Explosion is, again, mirrored on the one he used aggainst Buu. The grow in power, which allowed him to survive, reflects his grow as a character, unwilling to give up everything for power and actually fighting for someone else.
What Makes A Sequal Better..Or How Vegeta's SSJB Sacrifice Writters Could Have Made Upto The Heights..
When will you make a video on dbgt?