If God is the author and finisher of our faith, then he is absolutely correct. Our life in Christ is secure. God himself did it. He is the author. Not us. Thanks be to God!
Heb 2:1, "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away." From what can we drift away? Does it say, drift away from justification? No. Can we drift away (for a season) from what we have heard -- the Gospel message of salvation? Yes, by not obeying His commands to trust in Him as Lord, to repent, and to follow Him according to the Scriptures. Will we receive strong corrective discipline from God if we drift away? Yes! And sometimes that discipline can be very very painful. Look at David's discipline for killing Uriah: his newborn son died. Now that's painful and worthy of a strong warning.
Can those who believe we can lose our salvation please interpret what Jesus said in John 10:28, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
I had a deathscort wearing a shirt that says "Pro-Abort Witch" on it tell me "Once Saved, Always Saved!" I used to say "Those who fall away were never saved in the first place," but then I realized that "Those who fall off of the horse were never on the horse in the first place" is logically incoherent. I have to go with Wesley on this one: “Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley
Wesley said Calvinists use fallacious reasoning? What about the verses Calvin used like, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."? Here is some more logic you should consider: your analogy can be logical if the horse is the local congregation, and the rider who slips off the horse is someone who was never born-again. John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." The same idea can be applied to Wesley's ship analogy: the ship did not have Jesus Christ as its anchor and became shipwrecked. (Hebrews 6:19) Also, please interpret Jesus' Words: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
@@nberrios777 Yes, these are all great points you make - without question. I would argue that turning the horse into the local congregation kind of turns salvation into a group, versus individual, thing. But, as we see more and more denominations "falling away" from Christ, you do have an interesting point there. John 10:28 is also fab. In the KVJ: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Yet with so many verses about falling away, I still give the edge to Wesley here: "In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it." Regardless, I am seeing people that I once THOUGHT were strong Christians now siding with the world. I get that the OSAS argument is that they were not saved to begin with, but it still seems awfully convenient to me and not logical. The two opposing beliefs do not affect my practice, nor my confidence. I might say that my current view does make me a bit more vigilant when it comes to truth and morality and discernment however.
@@robertmog4336 turning the horse into the local congregation is just that. This analogy fits into the idea that a person who leaves the local congregation is has left the faith, but they had the faith of demons (like James says) and were never born-again.
@@nberrios777 But it's not true that leaving any local congregation is leaving the Faith. Especially these days. One might be the last one from some local congregations IN the Faith.
@@robertmog4336 my point is that the analogy can be viewed differently. The congregation analogy relates to the verse in 1 John where John wrote that they left the congregation (stopped attending services) because they were never of them (never born-again).
It is not biblical what you said that will be only FEW apostates , according to Matthew 7:22 “MANY will say to me in that day, Lord ,Lord , have we not propphesied in thy name?And in thy name have cast out demons and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Hebrews was written to Lost sheep of Israel, probably by Paul before subsequent revelations ( Gal 1 ) to Church Age ( Romans-Philemon as Core doctrine today ) All the Bible, OT / NT are for us, but is not all prescriptive for today I sincerely believe Hebrews, James, 1-2 Peter are primarily Tribulation passages . I trusted Christ when I 1st heard the Grace of the Gospel, for Eternal Redemption of the Soul, NOT for worldly blessings. As one Who LOVES the BIBLE, ( AV1611 ), there are always passages quoted such as Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24:13 “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", applying that the Church Age Saints, when the context is for Tribulation Saints after Rapture . Another is Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.", which is the answer Peter answered to the plural question, in vs 37, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?", numerous denominations primarily 'Church of Christ', and 'Oneness Pentecostals' hang their entire hope on this verse, while at the same time 'working' for their salvation as a lifelong process, instead of received Salvation in a One Time Event ( John 5:24, Acts 16:31, Rom 4:5, Eph 1:13 ) .
It is definitely possible for one to lose their salvation. The the entire books of Hebrews was written to warn people against falling away. Hebrews 6 makes the answer incredibly clear saying “4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age- 6and then have fallen away-to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame” This passage is obviously speaking about Christians because unbelievers have not “shared in the Holy Spirit” as stated above. We are saved by faith and as Paul says in Romans we “stand by faith.” As long as someone is trusting in Jesus they are saved however if by the “deceitfulness of sin” one has a “an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” Hebrews 3:12 they can fall away and forfeit rather than lose their salvation. We are saved by faith and if we “believe unto the saving of the soul”Hebrews 10:39 we will not fall away. Also if we trust in God to keep us during times of trial we don’t have to worry about falling away because “the Lord is thy Keeper” psalm 121: 5.
Unless you are an unbeliever I assume you already known the answer. I would say biblically speaking salvation is to be saved from the power and the effects of sin which most importantly would include to be saved from the wrath of God.
@@jesussaves3741 I used to believe in OSAS. But, I had to ask myself "What are all of the people who are falling away falling away FROM???" This quote by Wesley sealed it for me: “Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley
@@jesussaves3741 I love Wesley, because he got kicked out of just about every church in England. The churches of my city despise me too, albeit for a different reason: I keep shoving the murdered babies in their faces - the ones that they ignore in their own city.
Why not actually read the verses in Hebrews that speak on the topic you claim to address? You know: Hebrews 3:12-19, Hebrews 6:4-12; and Hebrews 10:26-31?
Heb 2:1, "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away." From what can we drift away? Does it say, drift away from justification? No. Can we drift away (for a season) from what we have heard -- the Gospel message of salvation? Yes, by not obeying His commands to trust in Him as Lord, to repent, and to follow Him according to the Scriptures. Will we receive strong corrective discipline from God if we drift away? Yes! And sometimes that discipline can be very painful. Look at David's discipline for killing Uriah: his newborn son died. Now that's painful and worthy of a strong warning.
If God is the author and finisher of our faith, then he is absolutely correct.
Our life in Christ is secure.
God himself did it. He is the author. Not us.
Thanks be to God!
Heb 2:1, "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away." From what can we drift away? Does it say, drift away from justification? No. Can we drift away (for a season) from what we have heard -- the Gospel message of salvation? Yes, by not obeying His commands to trust in Him as Lord, to repent, and to follow Him according to the Scriptures.
Will we receive strong corrective discipline from God if we drift away? Yes! And sometimes that discipline can be very very painful. Look at David's discipline for killing Uriah: his newborn son died. Now that's painful and worthy of a strong warning.
Can those who believe we can lose our salvation please interpret what Jesus said in John 10:28, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
I had a deathscort wearing a shirt that says "Pro-Abort Witch" on it tell me "Once Saved, Always Saved!" I used to say "Those who fall away were never saved in the first place," but then I realized that "Those who fall off of the horse were never on the horse in the first place" is logically incoherent. I have to go with Wesley on this one:
“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley
Wesley said Calvinists use fallacious reasoning? What about the verses Calvin used like, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."?
Here is some more logic you should consider: your analogy can be logical if the horse is the local congregation, and the rider who slips off the horse is someone who was never born-again. John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
The same idea can be applied to Wesley's ship analogy: the ship did not have Jesus Christ as its anchor and became shipwrecked. (Hebrews 6:19)
Also, please interpret Jesus' Words: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
@@nberrios777 Yes, these are all great points you make - without question. I would argue that turning the horse into the local congregation kind of turns salvation into a group, versus individual, thing. But, as we see more and more denominations "falling away" from Christ, you do have an interesting point there.
John 10:28 is also fab. In the KVJ: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
Yet with so many verses about falling away, I still give the edge to Wesley here:
"In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it."
Regardless, I am seeing people that I once THOUGHT were strong Christians now siding with the world. I get that the OSAS argument is that they were not saved to begin with, but it still seems awfully convenient to me and not logical. The two opposing beliefs do not affect my practice, nor my confidence. I might say that my current view does make me a bit more vigilant when it comes to truth and morality and discernment however.
@@robertmog4336 turning the horse into the local congregation is just that. This analogy fits into the idea that a person who leaves the local congregation is has left the faith, but they had the faith of demons (like James says) and were never born-again.
@@nberrios777 But it's not true that leaving any local congregation is leaving the Faith. Especially these days. One might be the last one from some local congregations IN the Faith.
@@robertmog4336 my point is that the analogy can be viewed differently. The congregation analogy relates to the verse in 1 John where John wrote that they left the congregation (stopped attending services) because they were never of them (never born-again).
It is not biblical what you said that will be only FEW apostates , according to Matthew 7:22 “MANY will say to me in that day, Lord ,Lord , have we not propphesied in thy name?And in thy name have cast out demons and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Hebrews was written to Lost sheep of Israel, probably by Paul before subsequent revelations ( Gal 1 ) to Church Age ( Romans-Philemon as Core doctrine today ) All the Bible, OT / NT are for us, but is not all prescriptive for today
I sincerely believe Hebrews, James, 1-2 Peter are primarily Tribulation passages .
I trusted Christ when I 1st heard the Grace of the Gospel, for Eternal Redemption of the Soul, NOT for worldly blessings. As one Who LOVES the BIBLE, ( AV1611 ), there are always passages quoted such as Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24:13 “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", applying that the Church Age Saints, when the context is for Tribulation Saints after Rapture . Another is Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.", which is the answer Peter answered to the plural question, in vs 37, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?", numerous denominations primarily 'Church of Christ', and 'Oneness Pentecostals' hang their entire hope on this verse, while at the same time 'working' for their salvation as a lifelong process, instead of received Salvation in a One Time Event ( John 5:24, Acts 16:31, Rom 4:5, Eph 1:13 ) .
It is definitely possible for one to lose their salvation. The the entire books of Hebrews was written to warn people against falling away. Hebrews 6 makes the answer incredibly clear saying
“4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age- 6and then have fallen away-to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame”
This passage is obviously speaking about Christians because unbelievers have not “shared in the Holy Spirit” as stated above. We are saved by faith and as Paul says in Romans we “stand by faith.” As long as someone is trusting in Jesus they are saved however if by the “deceitfulness of sin” one has a “an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” Hebrews 3:12 they can fall away and forfeit rather than lose their salvation. We are saved by faith and if we “believe unto the saving of the soul”Hebrews 10:39 we will not fall away. Also if we trust in God to keep us during times of trial we don’t have to worry about falling away because “the Lord is thy Keeper” psalm 121: 5.
What is "salvation"?
Unless you are an unbeliever I assume you already known the answer. I would say biblically speaking salvation is to be saved from the power and the effects of sin which most importantly would include to be saved from the wrath of God.
@@jesussaves3741 I used to believe in OSAS. But, I had to ask myself "What are all of the people who are falling away falling away FROM???" This quote by Wesley sealed it for me:
“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley
Amen. Wesley was absolutely right.
@@jesussaves3741 I love Wesley, because he got kicked out of just about every church in England. The churches of my city despise me too, albeit for a different reason: I keep shoving the murdered babies in their faces - the ones that they ignore in their own city.
Why not actually read the verses in Hebrews that speak on the topic you claim to address? You know: Hebrews 3:12-19, Hebrews 6:4-12; and Hebrews 10:26-31?
I’m preaching through the whole book. I’ll get there buddy.
lol! So Hebrews 2:1 doesn't mean what it actually says it means! Too funny.
Heb 2:1, "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away." From what can we drift away? Does it say, drift away from justification? No. Can we drift away (for a season) from what we have heard -- the Gospel message of salvation? Yes, by not obeying His commands to trust in Him as Lord, to repent, and to follow Him according to the Scriptures.
Will we receive strong corrective discipline from God if we drift away? Yes! And sometimes that discipline can be very painful. Look at David's discipline for killing Uriah: his newborn son died. Now that's painful and worthy of a strong warning.
So, John 10:28, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish," doesn't mean what it actually says? Not funny -- I am feeling sad for you.