The Archive ink is pigmented, while the Document ink is dye-based. Both are permanent. The pigment in the Archive ink makes the ink ligtfast in top of being waterproof. The Document ink does not achieve such level of permanence, although it is still very durable, making it "document-proof". This would make the Archive ink similar to let's say Platinum Carbon ink (pigment-based) and the Document ink similar to Noodler's Black (dye-based). In other words, the Archive ink is of higher level of permanence than the Document ink.
Atelier Novotny While it may or may not achieve the same level of lightfastness as DeAtramentis Archive Ink, I have seen numerous independent tests in which Noodler’s (bulletproof) Black displays an extraordinary ability to resist light degradation. That said, competition is always good. The amazing explosion of both utilitarian and entertaining fountain pen inks over the past 15 years or so is what got me back into the hobby after a decades-long hiatus. We needed better inks, and we’re getting them.
@@stevenolin7229 Yes, I myself conducted one of those tests. Noodler's Black has an excellent UV resistance. I was referring to the similarity of composition, meaning the Document ink is made with dye component, similarly to Noodler's Black. Both inks contain permanent dye and both are accordingly lightfast. Pigment just provides the industry standard lightfastness that dye cannot quite compete with. This does not mean it is insufficient, at least according to my own findings.
I've used the noodler's EEL bulletproof black, platinum carbon black, and DA document black. Of the three, I find that the DA ink is the most waterproof, dries the fastest, and feathers the least. Very nice! I sampled some of their other colors and found the reds to also be pretty good, though the best blue they had (i think it's turqoise) was horrible on everything - feathered like crazy. In any case, I love my document black ink!
I'm *loving* the De Atramentis Document ink. Currently sketching with fuschia! They're all extremely waterproof, with the black being ever so slightly less. Trying Diamine Registrar's Blue Black next because it's also crazy waterproof. The blue color is BEAUTIFUL too. I refill using an ink syringe and the whole process is SO much easier and faster.
I love Diamine Registrars ink, but it has one big weakness: It fades pretty quickly under light. It's not the worst-fading fountain pen ink, but I expected more.
If I were you that's what I'd be filling my pens with. The performance from their "Document" and "Archive" inks is excellent. And the drying time is obviously much less. That would be my choice without thinking twice about it. Thanks for the excellent review Teoh. 👍 😄
I also use their Document Ink. They are really good! But I personally prefere the Rohrer and Klingner SketchInk. They come in a variety of different colors and are a lot cheaper than DeArtramentis. Both are absolutely waterproof and suited for fountain pens. Thank you for the review!
Nice review. Thank you. I use Platinum Carbon ink which is excellent, too, and I never have pen clogging issues, but I do clean the pen by rinsing before a refill.
The DA document inks are all pigment inks but they are expensive because the pigment is ground extremely fine. I've not had a problem with them in my pens even after a week and a half without use this far.
Ah! Yes finally waterproof ink. I've tried several that 'said waterproof but they were not. I know this is expensive and I dont do enouph ink drawing to spend that . But it is worth it for artists like you that do a lot of pen/ink work. Thanks Teoh for all you do. Barbra Joan
Ive been using the Noodlers bulletproof as well as the deatramentis document inks .. deatramentis definitely and beautifully waterproof and faster drying than Noodlers ‘ I do enjoy them all , but for urban sketching I prefer the deatramentis since drying time is huge factor .... is definitely more expensive, but the frustration level is lower when using them :-)))) thanks as always !
Teoh, i really like their Document Ink - I never tried the Archive Ink, and like you, I cannot tell the difference. Their site does not explain either as they are both permanent, waterproof and light fast. The only think I can think of is that the Document Ink comes in 10+ colors besides black and on their site they say you can mix all of them (they are all waterproof). So I would guess that you can not mix the Archive ink with the Document ink, but I do not know that for a fact. I gave up on Noodler's Ink as, like you said, they dry too slow, even here in Colorado where it is super dry. Noodlers Black is even worse on some papers (Strathmore comes to mind - I had to wait an hour or more to even erase pencil lines from the sketch ). I never had an issue with deAtramentis and Carbon Ink, but Carbon Inks make me a little nervous with the particles! I have too many fountain pens to be able to use any of them everyday (to avoid them getting clogged up with the carbon ink particles), so deAtramentis has been my goto ink this past year. Another one that I tried with very good results (but likely not worth the price) is the Montblanc Permanent Black, which dries fast too. But since it is $30 a bottle, deAtramentis comes ahead again (the Montblanc ink and pen were gifts from my mom for my birthday - thank you mom!) . I would not be surprised if the Montblanc ink is not made by deAtramentis - pure speculation from my part as I have no idea! Thanks for the review!
I'll hopefully be getting a bottle of Rohrer & Klingner SketchINK Lotte from a second-hand market. This line of inks is marketed towards artists and are waterproof. Not sure about the lightfastness and other factors though.
I am loyal to the Noodler's black ink for my watercolors and have no problem drying. The vial is transparent, so more practical and if I believe its name it is not only waterproof but also bulletproof, so... 😳
Unfortunately, de Atramentis does not seem to be waterproof on all the paper I have tried it with. So, on a A5 8.3"x 5.8" notebook with 120gm paper from Kunst&Papier it bleeds even after having dried for a day and I cannot figure out why. Maybe it's the paper? It's not that great quality but still, shouldn't it be waterproof on every kind of paper? Thank you for the review Teoh :)
This is the reply from De Atramentis regarding the difference between Archive and Document.... Thank you for your mail. The archive ink is lightfast. The document ink is document-proof. Otherwise, the properties are the same. Best regards Franz-Josef Jansen Ink Manufacture Jansen DE ATRAMENTIS
Hi @@stevenolin7229, I'm not 100% sure (I relayed their email) but my assumption is that the archive ink has better resistance to sunlight than the document ink. I have used both inks and they both seemed equally waterproof to me but as all my sketches are in sketchbooks I have never done a sunlight-fading test. Hope that helps, maybe if you contact de Atramentis direct they may be more specific?
Here is someone saying that “archive” is dryer than “document”, but “archive” is lightfast. www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/336602-de-atramentis-archive-vs-de-atramentis-document/ “The Document ink flows just a tiny bit thinner than the Archive ink. The reason for me getting the Document black was to see, if I could get a wetter, but not too wet stroke from my Platinum pens and I can. The Document inks flows so smooth in the Platinum pens it’s like getting a new and better pen.”
Well I’m glad I did well to prefer DA over Noodler’s for inks needing archival properties despite the ridiculous (since apparently undeserved) hype around Noodler’s.
A very professional review as usual. Q Teoh-I have gone over a lot of your past videos and I did not see one on drawing Stairs. For some reason I have a very hard time drawing Stairs especially circular and left right combo stairs-could u possibly show us some of your techniques? thx ps I asked u a long time ago if u could show us some of your techniques on drawing windows-and u did a really cool one-thank you.
It's high on my to-try list but I'm pretty happy with what I'm already using too (currently Sailor Sou Boku which is a blue-black nano particle ink that flows really nicely in fountain pens). Am curious about the difference between dA archive and dA document ink too. Hmm
Rohrer & Klingner sketchINK is another great totally waterproof fountain and tech pen ink that I found, in case you ever want other lightfast colors. I got mine at JetPens site.
Yasmine S. Noodler’s has a few that are waterproof like Lexington Gray, Golden Brown, #41 Brown, Bad Gator Green & 54th Massachusetts. But I have been disappointed with several others of theirs that were listed as “water resistant” but in fact bleed badly.
@@susanbradford4543 I've had the same experience with Noodlers, many are not truly waterproof, and because all the color ones are all dye based they fade over time for artwork. The black might be the only lightfast one, unlike DeAtramentis or R&K's SketchINK that have quality pigments. I also had a couple colors from Noodlers harden into gel over a year in the tightly closed jar. Those several ounce bottles look like a great deal and you think they will last you forever - just to find them unusable in the jar later or worse - in your pen.
Kimberly Crick Art I haven’t found any turned into gel yet but that would be distressing. I tried three Platinum inks recently that are billed as “water resistant” but just melt when water is applied to them. Also disappointing and a waste of money. Thanks to Teoh and a few others we at least are learning the truth. I suggested to Goulet Pens that they test inks on watercolor paper but was told they don’t sell watercolor paper so they won’t do it. I also suggested they had a category for waterproof instead of water resistant. That also fell on deaf ears. All the pen & ink companies see their customer base as people who write letters but I think they are missing a big market base of those of us who used them for drawing.
My favorite waterproof black fountain pen ink is Sailor Nano Kiwa-guro. It has a silvery, graphite-like sheen when it dries in the wetter areas (not shimmer--the pigments are just slightly glossy) and amazing, silky flow. It can, however, smudge on some slick papers if you wipe at it, so it might not be ideal for painting over with a brush. If you spill water on it and blot it, though, it doesn't move at all.
DA urban grey is a very fun color as well. Sometimes a less stark line is less intimidating to draw with. In other words, the graphite color of the ink feels looser and more like pencil... but is it ever waterproof!!
Thank you for this review Teoh, it's really helpful. Do you have any experience on how this ink performs with extra fine nibs? I'm currently using R+K SketchInk in a Moonman M2 for illustration and this combination really requires a lot of care, so I'm thinking of trying DeAtramentis.
@@teohyc Awesome, thanks again. What I've experienced so far is that it's very prone to clogging. It always has a hard start when left only overnight, and even then it skips during drawing. Diluting the SketchInk a bit didn't help unfortunately.
I wonder if you have other colours to attempt mixing. @Sadiesavestheday did a 2018 gift guide suggesting their inks to create a CMYK set, and create your own waterproof colour inks. If you have or get the CMY colours, it would be great to see what you think about mixing and using the mixed as part of urban sketching and/or use for line and wash paintings. Great review, thanks for taking the time!
If you aren't going to use your fountain pen for say, over 2 weeks, would you empty the ink in the converter? (either this ink, or just any ink in general.) I'm just learning about using fountain pens so I don't know much other than some waterproof inks aren't considered fountain pen safe.
@@teohyc thanks Teoh. how long is long enough that you should empty the converter? I suppose it would be OK to empty it back into the bottle instead of waste the ink right?
@@Jorigin Yeah, sometimes I just pour the ink from the converter back into the bottle. Not sure how long you should empty. If you're not using for two weeks or more, I guess you can pour back.
@@teohyc Thanks Teoh, you're so much help :D Last question I promise. Do you think this ink would be a good option to refill the Pentel Pocket Brush Pen cartridges with a syringe like you did in your older video?
The Archive ink is pigmented, while the Document ink is dye-based. Both are permanent. The pigment in the Archive ink makes the ink ligtfast in top of being waterproof. The Document ink does not achieve such level of permanence, although it is still very durable, making it "document-proof". This would make the Archive ink similar to let's say Platinum Carbon ink (pigment-based) and the Document ink similar to Noodler's Black (dye-based). In other words, the Archive ink is of higher level of permanence than the Document ink.
Atelier Novotny While it may or may not achieve the same level of lightfastness as DeAtramentis Archive Ink, I have seen numerous independent tests in which Noodler’s (bulletproof) Black displays an extraordinary ability to resist light degradation. That said, competition is always good. The amazing explosion of both utilitarian and entertaining fountain pen inks over the past 15 years or so is what got me back into the hobby after a decades-long hiatus. We needed better inks, and we’re getting them.
@@stevenolin7229 Yes, I myself conducted one of those tests. Noodler's Black has an excellent UV resistance. I was referring to the similarity of composition, meaning the Document ink is made with dye component, similarly to Noodler's Black. Both inks contain permanent dye and both are accordingly lightfast. Pigment just provides the industry standard lightfastness that dye cannot quite compete with. This does not mean it is insufficient, at least according to my own findings.
@@creativewatercolor Does the document ink bind with celluloid like the Noodlers? I'm cautious of using inks in fear of staining my clothes lol
nope u wrong
I've used the noodler's EEL bulletproof black, platinum carbon black, and DA document black. Of the three, I find that the DA ink is the most waterproof, dries the fastest, and feathers the least. Very nice! I sampled some of their other colors and found the reds to also be pretty good, though the best blue they had (i think it's turqoise) was horrible on everything - feathered like crazy. In any case, I love my document black ink!
I'm *loving* the De Atramentis Document ink. Currently sketching with fuschia! They're all extremely waterproof, with the black being ever so slightly less. Trying Diamine Registrar's Blue Black next because it's also crazy waterproof. The blue color is BEAUTIFUL too.
I refill using an ink syringe and the whole process is SO much easier and faster.
I love Diamine Registrars ink, but it has one big weakness: It fades pretty quickly under light. It's not the worst-fading fountain pen ink, but I expected more.
If I were you that's what I'd be filling my pens with. The performance from their "Document" and "Archive" inks is excellent. And the drying time is obviously much less. That would be my choice without thinking twice about it. Thanks for the excellent review Teoh. 👍 😄
except cyan
I also use their Document Ink. They are really good! But I personally prefere the Rohrer and Klingner SketchInk. They come in a variety of different colors and are a lot cheaper than DeArtramentis. Both are absolutely waterproof and suited for fountain pens. Thank you for the review!
@Yasmine S. what is your problem with the RK ink?
Nice review. Thank you. I use Platinum Carbon ink which is excellent, too, and I never have pen clogging issues, but I do clean the pen by rinsing before a refill.
The DA document inks are all pigment inks but they are expensive because the pigment is ground extremely fine. I've not had a problem with them in my pens even after a week and a half without use this far.
Ah! Yes finally waterproof ink. I've tried several that 'said waterproof but they were not. I know this is expensive and I dont do enouph ink drawing to spend that . But it is worth it for artists like you that do a lot of pen/ink work. Thanks Teoh for all you do.
Barbra Joan
16euro is much? really ? 35ml will last you a decade.
Looks like good quality ink, its nice it can be used with watercolor as well.
Ive been using the Noodlers bulletproof as well as the deatramentis document inks .. deatramentis definitely and beautifully waterproof and faster drying than Noodlers ‘
I do enjoy them all , but for urban sketching I prefer the deatramentis since drying time is huge factor .... is definitely more expensive, but the frustration level is lower when using them :-))))
thanks as always !
Teoh, i really like their Document Ink - I never tried the Archive Ink, and like you, I cannot tell the difference. Their site does not explain either as they are both permanent, waterproof and light fast. The only think I can think of is that the Document Ink comes in 10+ colors besides black and on their site they say you can mix all of them (they are all waterproof). So I would guess that you can not mix the Archive ink with the Document ink, but I do not know that for a fact. I gave up on Noodler's Ink as, like you said, they dry too slow, even here in Colorado where it is super dry. Noodlers Black is even worse on some papers (Strathmore comes to mind - I had to wait an hour or more to even erase pencil lines from the sketch ). I never had an issue with deAtramentis and Carbon Ink, but Carbon Inks make me a little nervous with the particles! I have too many fountain pens to be able to use any of them everyday (to avoid them getting clogged up with the carbon ink particles), so deAtramentis has been my goto ink this past year. Another one that I tried with very good results (but likely not worth the price) is the Montblanc Permanent Black, which dries fast too. But since it is $30 a bottle, deAtramentis comes ahead again (the Montblanc ink and pen were gifts from my mom for my birthday - thank you mom!) . I would not be surprised if the Montblanc ink is not made by deAtramentis - pure speculation from my part as I have no idea! Thanks for the review!
Great review 😊
Thank you so much
I think that samples with feathering are from the recent review of the Platinum Carbon ink, not Noodler's.
I'll hopefully be getting a bottle of Rohrer & Klingner SketchINK Lotte from a second-hand market. This line of inks is marketed towards artists and are waterproof. Not sure about the lightfastness and other factors though.
I’m going to have to try that. Thanks Teoh.
I am loyal to the Noodler's black ink for my watercolors and have no problem drying. The vial is transparent, so more practical and if I believe its name it is not only waterproof but also bulletproof, so... 😳
Love this ink. Have been using it for over a year for dip and fountain pen. really works great, just wish it was a bit cheaper ~
Great review!
I got a Duke pen just like yours!
I wounder about pen safety
Have you ever heard or checked out the Sketch.Ink?
I've heard of it but not tried it
Unfortunately, de Atramentis does not seem to be waterproof on all the paper I have tried it with. So, on a A5 8.3"x 5.8" notebook with 120gm paper from Kunst&Papier it bleeds even after having dried for a day and I cannot figure out why. Maybe it's the paper? It's not that great quality but still, shouldn't it be waterproof on every kind of paper? Thank you for the review Teoh :)
The paper you use does matter
has anyone used this with copics?
It should work alright since this is pigmented ink
This is the reply from De Atramentis regarding the difference between Archive and Document....
Thank you for your mail.
The archive ink is lightfast.
The document ink is document-proof.
Otherwise, the properties are the same.
Best regards
Franz-Josef Jansen
Ink Manufacture Jansen
DE ATRAMENTIS
Thank you so much! I'd been wondering for a while about this one!
What does "document-proof" mean? Does it mean tamper-resistant? Is their Document ink not lightfast? Is their Archive ink not tamper-resistant?
Hi @@stevenolin7229, I'm not 100% sure (I relayed their email) but my assumption is that the archive ink has better resistance to sunlight than the document ink. I have used both inks and they both seemed equally waterproof to me but as all my sketches are in sketchbooks I have never done a sunlight-fading test. Hope that helps, maybe if you contact de Atramentis direct they may be more specific?
@@sketchbookblue6033 I would have thought it was the reverse. You'd want the most permanent ink on "documents".
Here is someone saying that “archive” is dryer than “document”, but “archive” is lightfast.
www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/336602-de-atramentis-archive-vs-de-atramentis-document/
“The Document ink flows just a tiny bit thinner than the Archive ink. The reason for me getting the Document black was to see, if I could get a wetter, but not too wet stroke from my Platinum pens and I can. The Document inks flows so smooth in the Platinum pens it’s like getting a new and better pen.”
Well I’m glad I did well to prefer DA over Noodler’s for inks needing archival properties despite the ridiculous (since apparently undeserved) hype around Noodler’s.
is ligthfast? all waterproof re ligthfast?
Archive are lightfast inks.
A very professional review as usual. Q Teoh-I have gone over a lot of your past videos and I did not see one on drawing Stairs. For some reason I have a very hard time drawing Stairs especially circular and left right combo stairs-could u possibly show us some of your techniques?
thx
ps I asked u a long time ago if u could show us some of your techniques on drawing windows-and u did a really cool one-thank you.
Maybe I'll make a tutorial in the future.
@@teohyc
ok thank you 😎
It's high on my to-try list but I'm pretty happy with what I'm already using too (currently Sailor Sou Boku which is a blue-black nano particle ink that flows really nicely in fountain pens). Am curious about the difference between dA archive and dA document ink too. Hmm
Yes I agree, the review was great! :))
Hi..it may cost more but it has a cool bottle shape, I'm thinking sell the empty bottles to cut my cost..
Nice review 👍🏻
DeAtramentis Document inks are the only brand I have found that are reliably waterproof. I recommend them highly.
Rohrer & Klingner sketchINK is another great totally waterproof fountain and tech pen ink that I found, in case you ever want other lightfast colors. I got mine at JetPens site.
Yasmine S. Noodler’s has a few that are waterproof like Lexington Gray, Golden Brown, #41 Brown, Bad Gator Green & 54th Massachusetts. But I have been disappointed with several others of theirs that were listed as “water resistant” but in fact bleed badly.
Kimberly Crick Art p🎆
@@susanbradford4543 I've had the same experience with Noodlers, many are not truly waterproof, and because all the color ones are all dye based they fade over time for artwork. The black might be the only lightfast one, unlike DeAtramentis or R&K's SketchINK that have quality pigments. I also had a couple colors from Noodlers harden into gel over a year in the tightly closed jar. Those several ounce bottles look like a great deal and you think they will last you forever - just to find them unusable in the jar later or worse - in your pen.
Kimberly Crick Art I haven’t found any turned into gel yet but that would be distressing. I tried three Platinum inks recently that are billed as “water resistant” but just melt when water is applied to them. Also disappointing and a waste of money. Thanks to Teoh and a few others we at least are learning the truth. I suggested to Goulet Pens that they test inks on watercolor paper but was told they don’t sell watercolor paper so they won’t do it. I also suggested they had a category for waterproof instead of water resistant. That also fell on deaf ears. All the pen & ink companies see their customer base as people who write letters but I think they are missing a big market base of those of us who used them for drawing.
My favorite waterproof black fountain pen ink is Sailor Nano Kiwa-guro. It has a silvery, graphite-like sheen when it dries in the wetter areas (not shimmer--the pigments are just slightly glossy) and amazing, silky flow. It can, however, smudge on some slick papers if you wipe at it, so it might not be ideal for painting over with a brush. If you spill water on it and blot it, though, it doesn't move at all.
The document inks Rock for waterproofness. Also, noodlers Lexington Grey
Also Noodler's Kun Te Chung, and Diamine Registrar's Blue Black.
Mattias Adolfsson uses “Document “ ink: th-cam.com/video/a8ln5PIDaC0/w-d-xo.html
Awesome , I’ve used this ink for copperplate round hand script calligraphy and it works also thanks
I’ve been using there black edition - black brown. I really like it I have no issues. I’m using it in my Twsbi Eco
DA urban grey is a very fun color as well. Sometimes a less stark line is less intimidating to draw with. In other words, the graphite color of the ink feels looser and more like pencil... but is it ever waterproof!!
Thanks for the comparison! Good to know the different types of waterproof black inks! :D
Hi really nice ink Thank you 😊
I have three colours too all waterproof all superb
Liking my 209, but the 551 is more fun...
My favourite black ink on earth
Thank you. I rely on your opinion.
Yo!
How do you clean? The pen
Just have the pen under running water. Or if you need thorough cleaning, soak the pen in fountain pen cleaning liquid.
@@teohyc yeah I'll try the cleaner... document inks aren't water soluble.
👌👽
Thank you for this review Teoh, it's really helpful. Do you have any experience on how this ink performs with extra fine nibs?
I'm currently using R+K SketchInk in a Moonman M2 for illustration and this combination really requires a lot of care, so I'm thinking of trying DeAtramentis.
It works alright from what I can see. Why does yours require more care?
@@teohyc Awesome, thanks again.
What I've experienced so far is that it's very prone to clogging. It always has a hard start when left only overnight, and even then it skips during drawing. Diluting the SketchInk a bit didn't help unfortunately.
I wonder if you have other colours to attempt mixing. @Sadiesavestheday did a 2018 gift guide suggesting their inks to create a CMYK set, and create your own waterproof colour inks. If you have or get the CMY colours, it would be great to see what you think about mixing and using the mixed as part of urban sketching and/or use for line and wash paintings. Great review, thanks for taking the time!
I've a video on CMYK coming in the future
@@teohyc Thanks! I am subscribed and have notification on, so I will be looking forward to it.
If you aren't going to use your fountain pen for say, over 2 weeks, would you empty the ink in the converter? (either this ink, or just any ink in general.) I'm just learning about using fountain pens so I don't know much other than some waterproof inks aren't considered fountain pen safe.
Two weeks should still be fine. Those inks that leave dried crusty bits around the bottle opening are unsafe.
@@teohyc thanks Teoh. how long is long enough that you should empty the converter? I suppose it would be OK to empty it back into the bottle instead of waste the ink right?
@@Jorigin Yeah, sometimes I just pour the ink from the converter back into the bottle. Not sure how long you should empty. If you're not using for two weeks or more, I guess you can pour back.
@@teohyc Thanks Teoh, you're so much help :D Last question I promise. Do you think this ink would be a good option to refill the Pentel Pocket Brush Pen cartridges with a syringe like you did in your older video?
@@Jorigin It should work