If you don't seal the joints in the insulation boards the concrete may (and probably will) seep under and push insulation up due to its buoyancy which is known as "ICEBERGING". Hence you put vapor barrier on top of foam board or at least seal all joints with tuck tape.
Several critical differences made. The order from the bottom up. Virgin soil or compacted fill sand. 4" crushed stone. 2" R10 insulation. 6 mil or greater plastic vapor barrier on the floor and 6" up the walls. Expansion joint around parameter. Wire mesh on stand offs. Concrete.
vapor barrier should go up the wall 6+ inches so there is no gap. Also, foam should go down before the vapor barrier so that the foam cannot float in the concrete. If that foam decides to float after you start pouring, you are screwed. The vapor barrier on top of the foam will prevent floating.
Vapor barrier goes over the foam. Also use 2" x 4" tall strips of the EPS on the perimeter to space the concrete from the wall, then bond it to the spray foam on the walls.
I wish my basement had been prepped with this additional foam and yellow vapor barrier! Totally worth the extra pricing If you want to finish a basement and live in a place that experiences all 4 seasons.
Here in NE Oregon I have done several in floor heat jobs. We usually install about an inch of sand screeded flat right before vapor barrier and do a min of 4" foam often 5" and have had great returns for our clients.
@@chadwicks4631 I know most folks think Portland is the only place in Oregon but NE Oregon has a similar climate to Maine where I am originally from. I have been at this for 25 yrs and the slabs that have 5" of foam are much more efficient. I live in an older home that takes 6-10 cord of wood to heat per year and wish I would have wrapped this place in foam 15 yrs ago. Though I guess I get heated three times, cutting it, stacking it and burning it. Either way it is always the clients decision in the end if they want the savings up front or down the road. Cheers
My concrete guy told me to install 2” rigid foam around the perimeter wall as well as the floor. Supposedly most heat is sucked out of the concrete floor on the edges contrary to popular believe.
most jobs in my area on regular jobs the foam has to run from footer to concrete grade then a 2 ft flat band around the wall that`s code in our neck of the woods.
It's crazy...and sad...that in the 2 years since this video was made the vapor barrier shown has gone from $470 to $655. Everything's going up so fast. Thanks for sharing your work with us, Mike.
Engineering sites say to put the rigid foam under the vapor barrier, then pour the slab on top of the vapor barrier, which makes sense to prevent the rigid board from floating and from absorbing moisture and staying damp. Why did you put the barrier under the foam?
Another way to lay the foam is like a engineered finish floor. Saves time trying to rip strips to sandwich between the walls. Just lay second row cut to finish first row then lay second row. This method modified can get real tight seals around pipes. Snap 2 chalk lines to center of pipe on foam. Use hole saw to cut hole the cut along 1 center line to slide both pieces around pipe. Only problem with laying foam that way is all the seams are staggered, but it’s a trade off as the foam is in puzzle format making it more insulating during shifting over the life of the floor.
When I lived in Minnesota, 6x6 10ga wire was the norm. Here in the Black Hills of South Dakota I only see rebar. Typically #4 on a 2x2 grid or 30'x30" grid. Our soil here is very granular and well drained as well as this is a semi arid climate. If I go down 6" we're into rock. House was excavated with a 320 Cat trackhoe and a ripper tooth. as well as a 6" hammer.
Watching this video is a lesson in why your general contractor needs to be on site whenever work is done. Plastic vapor barrier needs to be under insulation, go up wall several inches. Cement chairs under wire mesh, these guys need a babysitter to help get this done right. Mike keeps saying how he charges for this and that... I don't think Mike is the man for my job. Sorry Mike.
Your probably an engineer never worked on site a day in your life. He did it to the specs the gc wanted and oh by the way nothings wrong with it. Clown.
Depends what the code is for floor to ceiling height in your area. Usually they drop the sub-grade 2" most walls like this are all poured at the same height.
Well I see if quite a few people have addressed what I was going to comment on. I guess the vapor barrier could you the 15 mil on the bottom as long as it goes up the wall. Then lay the insulation. One thing I have seen on many other videos and contractors recommend putting a 10 mil Vapor Barrier on top of the insulation before laying the rebar
would you ever do this on top of an existing 100 year old concrete floor with fresh french drains dug? i only hear of nightmares when dealing with 150 year old fieldstone basement. i just want to encapsulate a fool proof room in basement that kids can breathe for decades to come. ty in advance. love the vid regardless.
ugh. don't put the vapor barrier under the insulation. Asking for dislocation via concrete getting under the board. Much better IMO to put the vapor barrier over the foam board and inspect vapor barrier for any holes. If holes, hit them with a piece of tape. Run vapr barrier up the walls and then you have a seals surface to pour.
Hey Mike. What stone base do you recommend for concrete. I see alot if not most of people using clear stone but why not a crusher run which if compacted correctly before pouring the concrete will would be hard as a rock. Your thoughts
Been watching your work for a while, and all i can say is awesome 👌 totally professional workmanship, cant beat it when you have a great boss and a team of guy's who have worked with you for so long who you can trust 100%👍, really look forward to watching and learning from your videos mike from over here in Birmingham, England 🇬🇧, I've been doing all types of groundworks for many years now and have definitely learnt some new things when it comes to concreting 👊👍
I'm about to lay the slab of concrete over polystyrene, and just putting the steel reinforcement mesh down, I see in this video, you lay the mesh straight on the polystyrene without raising it up with spacers.. are spacers required or not?
looks good I would suggest to add same foil or maybe a bit cheaper one on that Styrofoam as protection against concrete penetrating bellow Styrofoam .. but all looks great..
I'm hoping someone can answer this but I've a concern that I'm hoping someone can address. I'm looking at doing insulation below the slab in my basement which is also serving as a garage and storage area. When fully loaded with what is being stored, it will have about 1.2 million pounds uniformly held up across the entire slab. In my situation, is it even possible to put under slab insulation or am I asking for trouble?
ground is generally considered a heat sink because it is around 6-7 degrees C, room temp with humans in it, regardless if it is heated floor, radiant or passive, will be higher temperature than that, so any insulation under concrete floor will make the floor that little bit warmer and reduce the total amount of heat loss through it if it is something like a garage, or a shop where you do some work near the floor, and even if the building code doesn't require it, it will be much more comfortable working on an insulated floor than just straight concrete on ground
@@dsfs17987 in Europe they have a different approach . They more focuse on insulating perimeter walls of foundation because of outside temperatures much colder than ground temperature in this case you don't have to insulate floors since the ground, beneath the floor, works as an insulator unless you have a ground river closer than 15 feet to surface of ground
@@andreycham4797 BS. Finland is part Europe and we put 8 - 10 inch insulation usually EPS under slab doesn't matter if floor is heated or not. Only when floor area is really big like barn or some industrial building then insulation is thinner in middle of building.
@@mr.wizeguy8995 you missed the point . They did not insulate perimeter of outside walls . What I was saying that temperature of the ground under a house around 10 C and air temperature outside can be -35 C in Finland. . Americans live mostly in warm climate zone and do not know what they are doing
They HID the Wire Mesh under the blanket so no concrete will ever be reinforced by the mesh. Are they going to add another layer of mesh on top the blanket?
Interesting -- WARNING -- This installation made a serious mistake. The Stego goes on TOP of the poly insulation board, not below it (yes, this is a bit counter intuitive). The problem with this install is that the concrete pour will likely get behind the insulation and the concrete will "float" the foam insulation up as the weight of concrete will fall between the foam's seams. This is a major mistake and causes a raised concrete flooring and a major repair/fix. Watch the Build Show with Matt Rissinger who outlines this common mistake. Remember, your goal is to ensure that the foam stays down flat and level. Foam will not get damaged by ground water, so put the Stego on top of the foam insulation. Then pour the concrete. Also, tape the Stego to the wall about 6" above the surface level.
What you say are good points but how we do this is by no means a "serious mistake". We've done 100s this way with no issues you talk about. What is your experience? Do you do this for a living like we do? I doubt it. Why bad talk someone's methods if you don't have any experience doing them. We've done stego both ways with excellent results.
...fair enough points and maybe it was a bit harsh. My experience, since you asked, is many years of watching youtube videos on this.. :). Also, architect Steve Baczek and Matt Rissinger havae both spoken about this several times regarding the risk of conrete getting behind the foam insulation and floating those floors. Yes, you can get lucky doing it your way, but there is no advantage in time or money to do so. If you want I will take down the comment if you wish.
Special equipment and skill really hard to maintain thickness but concrete will flow in anyhow. You been to gauge material depth so consistent. Yes better but easily 2-4x cost. Guestimate by how mush to spray insulate a simple size garage interior or attic sites say-- A 2-lb spray foam insulation set = $2,000.00. 2 drums 50 gal ea. Take 2,000 and divide it by 4,000 square feet (sprayed at 1-inch thickness) = 50 cents per square foot/inch (raw material cost). All it is; is more money.
Mike in your course do you talk about warranties? In an engineered slab, like the factory you worked on awhile back, I assume they would demand you meet a spec? I assume price is reflected in that? Also if you fail to meet a spec or out of tolerance what do you do? Just curious how the pros handle these situations
If you don't seal the joints in the insulation boards the concrete may (and probably will) seep under and push insulation up due to its buoyancy which is known as "ICEBERGING". Hence you put vapor barrier on top of foam board or at least seal all joints with tuck tape.
Several critical differences made. The order from the bottom up. Virgin soil or compacted fill sand. 4" crushed stone. 2" R10 insulation. 6 mil or greater plastic vapor barrier on the floor and 6" up the walls. Expansion joint around parameter. Wire mesh on stand offs. Concrete.
vapor barrier should go up the wall 6+ inches so there is no gap. Also, foam should go down before the vapor barrier so that the foam cannot float in the concrete. If that foam decides to float after you start pouring, you are screwed. The vapor barrier on top of the foam will prevent floating.
Vapor barrier goes over the foam. Also use 2" x 4" tall strips of the EPS on the perimeter to space the concrete from the wall, then bond it to the spray foam on the walls.
I wish my basement had been prepped with this additional foam and yellow vapor barrier! Totally worth the extra pricing If you want to finish a basement and live in a place that experiences all 4 seasons.
Here in NE Oregon I have done several in floor heat jobs. We usually install about an inch of sand screeded flat right before vapor barrier and do a min of 4" foam often 5" and have had great returns for our clients.
Well that's overkill... especially in Oregon where it doesn't get to cold... sounds like up-selling to pad your pockets!
@@chadwicks4631 I know most folks think Portland is the only place in Oregon but NE Oregon has a similar climate to Maine where I am originally from. I have been at this for 25 yrs and the slabs that have 5" of foam are much more efficient. I live in an older home that takes 6-10 cord of wood to heat per year and wish I would have wrapped this place in foam 15 yrs ago. Though I guess I get heated three times, cutting it, stacking it and burning it. Either way it is always the clients decision in the end if they want the savings up front or down the road. Cheers
My concrete guy told me to install 2” rigid foam around the perimeter wall as well as the floor. Supposedly most heat is sucked out of the concrete floor on the edges contrary to popular believe.
most jobs in my area on regular jobs the foam has to run from footer to concrete grade then a 2 ft flat band around the wall that`s code in our neck of the woods.
It's crazy...and sad...that in the 2 years since this video was made the vapor barrier shown has gone from $470 to $655. Everything's going up so fast. Thanks for sharing your work with us, Mike.
Engineering sites say to put the rigid foam under the vapor barrier, then pour the slab on top of the vapor barrier, which makes sense to prevent the rigid board from floating and from absorbing moisture and staying damp. Why did you put the barrier under the foam?
Exactly!!
From what I have ever seen you should put the vapor barrier on top of the insulation.
Love II. The tone is very friendly like body body.
Enjoy watching your video.
Very pleasant to hear you
Another way to lay the foam is like a engineered finish floor. Saves time trying to rip strips to sandwich between the walls. Just lay second row cut to finish first row then lay second row. This method modified can get real tight seals around pipes. Snap 2 chalk lines to center of pipe on foam. Use hole saw to cut hole the cut along 1 center line to slide both pieces around pipe.
Only problem with laying foam that way is all the seams are staggered, but it’s a trade off as the foam is in puzzle format making it more insulating during shifting over the life of the floor.
not sure if its good to put vapor barrier below the foam!... i have seen the other way round so its not lifted..
We can get owens corning 250 foam in 2" for around $18 a sheet at home depot.
A video on how not to do insulation and vapor barrier!
When I lived in Minnesota, 6x6 10ga wire was the norm. Here in the Black Hills of South Dakota I only see rebar. Typically #4 on a 2x2 grid or 30'x30" grid. Our soil here is very granular and well drained as well as this is a semi arid climate. If I go down 6" we're into rock. House was excavated with a 320 Cat trackhoe and a ripper tooth. as well as a 6" hammer.
Watching this video is a lesson in why your general contractor needs to be on site whenever work is done. Plastic vapor barrier needs to be under insulation, go up wall several inches. Cement chairs under wire mesh, these guys need a babysitter to help get this done right. Mike keeps saying how he charges for this and that... I don't think Mike is the man for my job. Sorry Mike.
Is it better if the vapor barrier goes under insulation or above it ?
He DID put the vapor barrier under the insulation, maybe you meant it needs to go above the foam board?
The foam roll strip is the barrier from the concrete wall.
They put the vapor barrier under the foam board, it went up the wall several inches. I’m not sure what video you watched but they did all that.
Your probably an engineer never worked on site a day in your life. He did it to the specs the gc wanted and oh by the way nothings wrong with it. Clown.
why not put the vapour barrior ontop of the foam so concrete doesnt seep under the foam board?
How do you seal the exterior wall at ground level to keep water out and coming in under the floor?
That's cool! I love all the information from these videos. Somebody did a nice job on that foundation.
Some videos show insulation first then vapor barrier? I am doing a frost wall slab on grade foundation? What do I put down first for a 4” pour
Thanks
Why do you need an insulating blanket, when you have 2" of insulation on the ground?
lol, great question. Maybe in polar zone
Good job, but supposed there's small space below the rebar mesh for a good concrete cover?!
Does adding 2" foam under the basement slab require the foundation walls to be poured an extra 2" taller to maintain the same basement wall heights?
Depends what the code is for floor to ceiling height in your area. Usually they drop the sub-grade 2" most walls like this are all poured at the same height.
Well I see if quite a few people have addressed what I was going to comment on. I guess the vapor barrier could you the 15 mil on the bottom as long as it goes up the wall. Then lay the insulation. One thing I have seen on many other videos and contractors recommend putting a 10 mil Vapor Barrier on top of the insulation before laying the rebar
Cant have double layers of vapor barriers. Where should the moisture in the layer go then? It could stay moist forever.
Great and PROFESIONAL Work ✨✨✨✨✨
Cant wait to see the pour! Great job guys. From NC keep it up.
would you ever do this on top of an existing 100 year old concrete floor with fresh french drains dug?
i only hear of nightmares when dealing with 150 year old fieldstone basement. i just want to encapsulate a fool proof room in basement that kids can breathe for decades to come. ty in advance. love the vid regardless.
Very informative video. It made a difference in my cellar prep work.
Thank you
Would you use the same process if you were raising a floor in an existing room?
how many inches of insulation did you put down?
thank you ...great content...keep them coming..!
I put tape on all joints and 3 inch bricks under the mess to keep it floating inside the slab!! Peace brother
What did you put under the vapor barrier to get it nice and flat for that foam to lay down real nice?
ugh. don't put the vapor barrier under the insulation. Asking for dislocation via concrete getting under the board. Much better IMO to put the vapor barrier over the foam board and inspect vapor barrier for any holes. If holes, hit them with a piece of tape. Run vapr barrier up the walls and then you have a seals surface to pour.
Hey Mike. What stone base do you recommend for concrete. I see alot if not most of people using clear stone but why not a crusher run which if compacted correctly before pouring the concrete will would be hard as a rock. Your thoughts
Great job !
Thanks again for sharing your talent! I really like your detailed vids.
Great job my friend 👍
Been watching your work for a while, and all i can say is awesome 👌 totally professional workmanship, cant beat it when you have a great boss and a team of guy's who have worked with you for so long who you can trust 100%👍, really look forward to watching and learning from your videos mike from over here in Birmingham, England 🇬🇧, I've been doing all types of groundworks for many years now and have definitely learnt some new things when it comes to concreting 👊👍
I'm about to lay the slab of concrete over polystyrene, and just putting the steel reinforcement mesh down, I see in this video, you lay the mesh straight on the polystyrene without raising it up with spacers.. are spacers required or not?
They're not required, unless on the plan. They're not a bad idea if you can get some.
looks good I would suggest to add same foil or maybe a bit cheaper one on that Styrofoam as protection against concrete penetrating bellow Styrofoam .. but all looks great..
How about a radon barrier?
Great work as always.
How necessary is it to use the chairs for the wire mesh?
Quite necessary
Doesn’t the foam serve as a vapor barrier already, just curious
I’ve heard yes but all seams need to be taped.
Belt and suspenders.
Thanks! Very informative.
How do I get a promo code for your concrete course?
I'm hoping someone can answer this but I've a concern that I'm hoping someone can address.
I'm looking at doing insulation below the slab in my basement which is also serving as a garage and storage area. When fully loaded with what is being stored, it will have about 1.2 million pounds uniformly held up across the entire slab. In my situation, is it even possible to put under slab insulation or am I asking for trouble?
Rigid foam is fine for heavy load applications. just need to use a high strength foam.
What is the purpose of that foam, since you are not putting heated floors down? Is underground water too close to the surface?
ground is generally considered a heat sink because it is around 6-7 degrees C, room temp with humans in it, regardless if it is heated floor, radiant or passive, will be higher temperature than that, so any insulation under concrete floor will make the floor that little bit warmer and reduce the total amount of heat loss through it
if it is something like a garage, or a shop where you do some work near the floor, and even if the building code doesn't require it, it will be much more comfortable working on an insulated floor than just straight concrete on ground
@@dsfs17987 in Europe they have a different approach . They more focuse on insulating perimeter walls of foundation because of outside temperatures much colder than ground temperature in this case you don't have to insulate floors since the ground, beneath the floor, works as an insulator unless you have a ground river closer than 15 feet to surface of ground
@@andreycham4797 BS. Finland is part Europe and we put 8 - 10 inch insulation usually EPS under slab doesn't matter if floor is heated or not. Only when floor area is really big like barn or some industrial building then insulation is thinner in middle of building.
@@mr.wizeguy8995 you missed the point . They did not insulate perimeter of outside walls . What I was saying that temperature of the ground under a house around 10 C and air temperature outside can be -35 C in Finland. . Americans live mostly in warm climate zone and do not know what they are doing
you guys dont tie wire the mesh together??
They HID the Wire Mesh under the blanket so no concrete will ever be reinforced by the mesh.
Are they going to add another layer of mesh on top the blanket?
Should of bonded the sheets like laying bricks
Interesting -- WARNING -- This installation made a serious mistake. The Stego goes on TOP of the poly insulation board, not below it (yes, this is a bit counter intuitive). The problem with this install is that the concrete pour will likely get behind the insulation and the concrete will "float" the foam insulation up as the weight of concrete will fall between the foam's seams. This is a major mistake and causes a raised concrete flooring and a major repair/fix. Watch the Build Show with Matt Rissinger who outlines this common mistake. Remember, your goal is to ensure that the foam stays down flat and level. Foam will not get damaged by ground water, so put the Stego on top of the foam insulation. Then pour the concrete. Also, tape the Stego to the wall about 6" above the surface level.
What you say are good points but how we do this is by no means a "serious mistake". We've done 100s this way with no issues you talk about. What is your experience? Do you do this for a living like we do? I doubt it. Why bad talk someone's methods if you don't have any experience doing them. We've done stego both ways with excellent results.
...fair enough points and maybe it was a bit harsh. My experience, since you asked, is many years of watching youtube videos on this.. :). Also, architect Steve Baczek and Matt Rissinger havae both spoken about this several times regarding the risk of conrete getting behind the foam insulation and floating those floors. Yes, you can get lucky doing it your way, but there is no advantage in time or money to do so. If you want I will take down the comment if you wish.
why not just spray foam with 1" of closed cell?
Special equipment and skill really hard to maintain thickness but concrete will flow in anyhow. You been to gauge material depth so consistent. Yes better but easily 2-4x cost. Guestimate by how mush to spray insulate a simple size garage interior or attic sites say-- A 2-lb spray foam insulation set = $2,000.00. 2 drums 50 gal ea. Take 2,000 and divide it by 4,000 square feet (sprayed at 1-inch thickness) = 50 cents per square foot/inch (raw material cost). All it is; is more money.
Them gc’s always nickel and dime a man. That’s y I don’t work for them. I work direct for homeowners. Patios, drives, shop slabs. Mostly flat work.
Good money talk
Helk of a job of this Narratve, do it Pal
The foam board is a moisture barrier
Would you trust a homeowner to do all this?
I don’t think he would care if all your paying him for is to pour and finish with no warranty to follow.
I own my home I'd pour any and everything at my house. ......... 😁 I've been doing concrete 20 years though 😉 .
Mike in your course do you talk about warranties? In an engineered slab, like the factory you worked on awhile back, I assume they would demand you meet a spec? I assume price is reflected in that? Also if you fail to meet a spec or out of tolerance what do you do? Just curious how the pros handle these situations
Vapor barrier is not touching concrete wall !!!
Pouring concrete on top of foam seems too risky due to its buoyancy in concrete.
Vapor barrier should of been on top of the foam not underneath.
I wish I coul dget it for $30 a sheet now a days! jesus inflation has caused prices to rise!