Dale Murphy basically was Braves baseball in the 1980s. He was a perrenial all star and class act. Plus, he won 5 gold gloves. He belongs in the HOF more than other contemporaries like Harold Baines who was good and consistent but was basically just compiling stats as a DH for half his career.
@@carseye1219 Yeah, I have nothing against Baines but I often use him as an example of a "compiler" or the Hall of Very Good. He was a good hitter for a long time and compiled stats but he either DH'd most of the time or played right field. Guys like Murphy, Mattingley, and Lofton were legit stars in their day and are not in HOF but you are correct nobody would have traded them for Baines. Baines became a journeyman bat for hire basically.
Didn't Murphy win back-back National League MVP's in the early 80's? I recall he won at least one. Him and Bob Horner were a potent big bat power combo in the Braves lineup with Murphy being the more overall dangerous hitter.
Got to call out Bill Freehan of the Tigers. 15 year career. 11 All Star game selections, 5 golden gloves War of 44.8 OPS of .752 OPS+ of 112. The man dominated the catcher position from 1965 to 1972. Came in 2nd in MVP voting twice behind Denny McLain in 1968 & 69.
The HOF is too easy to get into. Loved Lofton as a kid, but he's not a HOF'er. It should be reserved only for the absolute best ever. Nobody ever confused Lofton with being the best player in baseball when he played.
I agree I think he's a hall of famer. He played during a power era where hitting for average, speed, and defense were not valued as much unfortunately.
I don't think a lot of people understand this. Those early ballots were JAM PACKED with Decades of guys. There were only so many Votes to go around from different eras. That was the issue. That's the only reason Cy Young and other's didn't make it the 1st Ballot.
@LeaveTheDeadToTheDead I think Jim Rice came one season short of having a legit HoF career. If you take his 1987 season, for example, and replace his numbers with what he did in, let's say, 1979 or 1983, I think you could make a much better case for him. Especially if you judge his career against who is in the Hall NOW, as opposed to what the "ideal" is. That's just me, though. What do you think?
Beyond the 2005 AL Cy Young snub, Johan Santana’s HOF case was likely also hurt by poor managing at both ends of his career. Ron Gardenhire took way too long to trust him as a full- time starter. He was one of the best pitchers in 2002 and 2003 but threw only 258 innings in those two years combined, with approximately 50% of his appearances out of the bullpen. And Jerry Manuel basically let him pitch until his arm fell off. Overworking him slightly in 2008 contributed to a string of missed time over the following three seasons. However, 2012 was much more egregious. Santana hadn’t pitched at all in 2011. Returning from injury, through the first two months of the season there was no real attempt made to limit his workload. He had been pitching well though, with an ERA around 3. Then he pitched two consecutive complete games, the second of which was his no hitter. He threw 134 pitches that game. Sure, it added slightly to his HoF case. But its impact on his chance at enshrinement seems far more negative. After the no-hitter, he made only 10 more starts with an 8.27 ERA. He went onto the IL with the same injury that had led to his missed 2011. Sadly, he never pitched in the bigs again, making several unsuccessful comeback attempts in his 30s before ultimately announcing his retirement in 2018 at the age of 39.
GRAIG NETTLES: AT THE MOMENT HE RETIRED, HE WAS RANKED 23rd W MOST HOME RUN IN MLB HISTORY (390), EVERYONE IN THAT LIST HAS BEEN INDUCTED IN HALL OF FAME EXCEPT DAVE KINGMAN
MICKEY LOLICH: At the moment he retired, he was the lefty with most struck out in major league history, with 168 struck outs he would reach 3000, he got hurt and had to retire Also *TOMMY JOHN*
What other argument does Lolich really have? He didn't have that many accolades,the metrics aren't there. 217 Wins for a Pitcher of his Era are not that special. His only argument is 3,000 which he didn't get to.
Heres a video idea- make a list of twenty to thirty players in thr Hall right now who you would kick out. Not because of character issues or breaking rules (right or not), but because their careers did not match HoF standards. I'm thinking guys like Chick Hafey, Fred Lindstrom, Johnny Evers, Harold Baines, Rube Marquard, etc. I wager we could think of 30 or more who shouldn't be there. Again, not because of any persinal animosity or because they weren't good moral people. I'm talking about what they did on the field. Hope all is well!
Not sure I agree about Johnny Evers. He was the linchpin of great Cubs teams, and also led the miracle Braves in 1914. His offensive numbers were dampened by the dead ball. I do agree that the HOF has too many members. Lots of the old NY Giants were put in by their ex-teammates on the Veterans Committee... Guys like George Kelly, Marquard, Lindstrom, etc.
@ He made it an unclear standard. There were mistakes made before and after him but he basically put all of the worst guys in aside from Tommy McCarthy who is the single worst. Bar none
I'm with you on this one. 7-time All Star. 4 top-10 Cy finishes, twice in the top-5. All for the underwhelming 80s Blue Jays. Well, they got better mid-80s with Jimmy Key. They had Doyle Alexander, too. George Bell. Jesse Barfield that one year he went for 40 dingers. A young Cecil Fielder. Tony Fernandez. But Stieb was consistent. I like that choice. Better than Harold Baines.
There are so many SP's like Steib and Santana with under 200 wins who are so incredibly close to each other. It's really difficult to put any in because of that. I doubt Santana ever gets in. Guys like Cone are different,he'd have 200 wins if not for a strike despite a shortened career. He's remarkably similar to Roy Halladay overall. But otherwise the guys like Schilling,John,Tiant and Reuschel are always going to have a better chance.
@ I agree. Schilling is too. If not for a strike shortened season Cone is identical to Roy Halladay(would have 200+ wins). I think Tiant and Reuschel no matter how you cut it are borderline but I saw both of them pitch. Both very good,for large parts of their careers they were hurt by bad teams that hurt their win totals. Tiant in Cleveland and Reuschel in Chicago and later Pittsburgh,it made people overlook how good they really were a large chunk of the time.
@BrianKendall-p4h I used to be on the Schilling bandwagon. But then he opened his mouth. Character clause. Schilling can rot. Reuschel and Tiant kind of fall in the Hershiser category for me. Bulldog even won a Cy where as Reuschel and Tiant did not. But very similar stats. Hall of very good, I guess. Hershiser had 4 top 5 cy young seasons. Reuschel only had 3 as did Tiant. Otherwise, not a whole lot of individual accolades other than each of them had 3 all star appearances. I'm not saying these pitchers weren't great. Just not alot of hardware and middling counting stats for the era, which is what voters seem to look at.
Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should definitely be in the Hall. Cap Anson is in the Hall, and he gambled on the team he managed, so why is the Hall hypocrites!? Of course.
He's not even close to Bill Dahlen. Dahlen blows him away offensively and relative to Era craps all over in terms of power relative to his peers. Dahlen is a horrible snub that should have been take care of decades ago at this point. Concepcion does not have HOF numbers for a SS
I loved Roy Campanella back in the day...saw him at Yankees old timers games, and he always got a long loud ovation. I also loved Thurman. Pretty sure if Munson hit at Ebbets Field and Campy hit at Yankee Stadium, the two men would swap power numbers.
Catcher is the 1 position where you can't bat an eye at a Lack of Counting Stats(hits) about half of those in the HOF at that position including Campanella have well below 2,000. Even the GOAT,Johhny Bench is barely above 2,000.
@ They were roughly even offensively but Bench grades out much better defensively. HOWEVER. I will point out that Berra has a positional adjustment because he played a good bit in Left Field. I think Yogi's up there but look at Wins Above Average- 46.6 for Bench and 33.9 for Yogi. Rings are a team stat,that is not a pre indicator of a better player.
There is a 0% chance Rose ever gets in. You can argue hypocrisy on baseball’s part, but it’s still a baseball rule that you cannot be affiliated with the game and bet on baseball. No players, managers, coaches, front office personnel, or umpires. Rose not only bet on baseball, he bet on his own team and there is evidence, no smoking gun, that on at least four occasions, he bet on his team to lose. Now that he’s dead, he can never repent for his multiple egregious violations of the one rule everyone in the sport knew you can’t violate.
I am curious then, with regard to relief pitchers, where you'd rank Todd Jones. He was a long time closer for Houston and Detroit. And was dominant. As a detroiter, he was one of my all time favorites, but I wouldn't say HOF, but would put him in talks for consideration. As for Sweet Lou, he is probably the most worthy of those who didn't make it at any position excluding the controversial ones.
Here are some ideas. For SP, do both right handed pitchers and lefties. Using this theory, Mickey Lolich should be in the Hall of Fame. He basically pitched, and hit, the Tigers to winning the 1968 World Series, winning 3 games. He pitched games 2,5, and7.
@@davidhamilton7909 Pinson from age 27-36 was nothing more than a compiler. The dude didn't get a single MVP vote past the age of 25. With a Grand Total of 2 AS's and 1 Gold Glove. There's absolutely no way he's a better candidate than Lofton.
@@VincentManiscalco Except defensively where he falters massively behind, because you know. There's more to the game than just offense. He wasn't a good defensive player at a Premium defensive Position. It's not hard to figure why he has Whitaker and Grich ahead of him,they still hit pretty well and they were light years better on defense. Do you actually think Kent with his well known defensive weakness was actually the better overall player?
Andruw Jones, Keith Hernandez, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, Danny Murtaugh, Bill Buckner, Jeff Kent, Jim Edmonds, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, David Cone, Dave Stieb. To name a few.
I think that without Machado's unnecessary destruction of Dustin Pedroia's knee on his slide past second base, Pedroia may have had a better chance of going into the HOF. You didn't mention him and of course he's only on his first ballot but not likely to get enough votes. I do think that Grich, Whitaker and probably Kent should all go ahead of him. Second base is a very underrepresented position in the hall. I also think that two other players you didn't mention, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy sure seemed like Hall of Fame players to me while they played. They were absolutely, the brightest of stars for the peak of their careers.
Mattingly has 222 HR's and lacks the Metrics as a 1B so that's like 2 major problems. The power numbers for that position aren't there and he lacks the metrics. Not sure i'd even put Hernandez in but he's probably the lone exception at that spot even though he'd have less than half as many HR's as the next closest Modern Era 1B(Helton). I wouldn't sleep on Pedroia getting in,I think he actually has a chance on the writers ballot because of said injury being put into consideration but those 3 you mentioned plus possibly Willie Randolph are more deserving overall. I saw Randolph's entire career and I honestly believe the only reason he didn't win at least a couple of Gold Gloves were due to his severe lack of power,he was probably a better fielder than Grich or Whitaker were overall but they had pretty decent power. Randolph was like a younger version of Nellie Fox and Billy Herman,has an easier go if he's up about 20 years earlier.
This is a joke right ? Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker ??? Jeff Kent has numbers that blow both Grich and Whitakers away !!! I find it amazing how this guy never got mentioned !! best numbers of any second baseman in baseball history
Yeah,except there's this thing called "Defense" where he in fact was not very good and Whitaker and Grich blow him away in that. It's not a joke at all. I think the kid did a wonderful job
@ I don’t care about Defense, who makes the Hall of Fame on defense besides Ozzie Smith ??? oh, so you’re saying to me that every one of the players in the Hall of Fame we’re great defensive players !! his numbers are better than any second baseman in the history of baseball. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
@@VincentManiscalco I didn't say he didn't but i'd seriously question if you ever stepped foot on a field in your life if you actually mean "Defense doesn't matter". He also hit in a much more offensive oriented Era than Whitaker or Grich did. You put Kent in the 70's and 80's and you might be surprised how close the power numbers would have been. The point is,compared to other 2B in the HOF his defense lags behind considerably. I'd put him in but him having Whitaker and Grich ahead of him is justifiable when they were most likely better players overall. Defense should matter more than it has in the last 30 years in HOF voting.
@ I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I was a three sport athlete in high school play semi pro baseball. !! Again how many players get in the Hall of Fame because of their defense ?? he won an MVP during the steroid era. He was never implicated in using steroids during the Sosa Maguire Barry bonds era. He won an MVP !! 290 career batting average 377 hrs ! 1518 rbis ! 2461 hits !! if those are an MVP numbers I don’t know what are !! Compare them to any second baseman in major league, baseball history ! I never said defense doesn’t matter.! of course it matters on the playing field, but he wasn’t the worst defensive player ever ! I recall a young man name, Mike Piazza, who couldn’t throw anyone out ! Was a below average catcher defensively, but rightfully he’s in the Hall of Fame because his numbers are ridiculous. Just like Jeff Kent I hope you learn something today
@ there’s a guy name, Juan Soto, who every time a fly ball is hit his way you have to hold your breath !! if he continues hitting the way he is he’ll be a first ballot Hall of Famer !! I’m just trying to help you out kid
I’m not sure Gregg Nettles is a hall of famer, there might not be a third base snub right now. Also not convinced Beltran is a snub. He played way more games than most of his peers to get to his career totals. And the only conventional stat he ever led the league in was in games played at 162 in one season. I realize he wasn’t the biggest power guy so wasn’t likely to win a home run crown, but doubles, hits, runs, were possibilities. In their primes, I’d rather have Jim Edmonds.
Manny is a weird one to leave out, he tested positive for women's fertility drugs at the end of his career when he was already washed. I think the NY writers just like to hate on Boston.
Totally agree... Also he didn't catch nearly enough games to be considered a catcher... he was a good utility player. Bill Freehan is much more deserving.
If any steroid user gets in? David Ortiz - who failed a PED test- is already enshrined in Cooperstown. There's no rhyme or reason to it, at this point. It's who was nice to sportswriters.
There's a discrepancy in the number of players who tested positive in that leaked report vs the official number. Testing back then was less reliable than it is today.
How about Donnie Baseball and Ron Guidry? Two huge snubs. I also find it odd that Mari’s’ bat is in the hall to commemorate his 61 homers in 61 but the player himself isn’t in. You can probably tell from this comment that I’m a huge Yankee fan! Lol!🎉😂
Maris already has his accomplishments listed within. His Career Stats don't warrant induction,1 singular moment should not make a guy a HOF'er. He had possibly the strangest career ever. He was positively great for 2 years,broke an historic record,had a couple other pretty good years although not close to the other two and was not even really All Star Caliber otherwise. He's also at 1,325 hits and he's NOT a Catcher. He's never getting in. Guidry isn't really any different than a bunch of other sub 200 wins guys and I feel the same way about Santana.
Any Bill James reader would view Nettles as deserving. Whitaker over Grich, but they are close. whitaker seriously measures up next to Sandburge, who was a first ballot. The MVP and steals put Sandburg above Whitake but their career similarity scores are close to identical
Speaking of the HOF, why the hell was CC Sabathia a first ballot HOFer? Good, but not amazing record with an almost 4 ERA. Eventual HOFer - yes. First ballot - TF, honestly. As far as those deserving from this list, Keith Hernandez and Graig Nettles are no brainers, IMO.
I gotta say a big fat NO to Carlos Beltran and I got 2 words why: trash can. If Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Rose, et. al. aren't getting in for cheating or allegedly cheating, Beltran is in that same group. I'll say the same thing for Altuve when it's his turn, too. I would add to the list of biggest snubs Jeff Kent, Bret Saberhagen and Ron Guidry. Maybe Dave Concepcion. And Fernando because he could hit.
Concepcion was not close to the snub Dahlen is. Dahlen has far better metrcis,Dahlen was a much better overall hitter despite playing in the Dead Ball Era and his Power Numbers are barely below Dahlen despite Dahlen basically trying to hit a Wet Rag of a Ball. Both were Elite Defensive players in their day but Dahlen relative to his era was clearly better,he should have been in decades ago and it is awful at this point how he's not in.
It should be Boyer #1 and then Nettles or Buddy Bell in whatever order at 2/3. I don't see how you can have one of the latter two without the other. Anybody who saw them both play realizes how damn good they were with the glove,Nettles had more power but they were about as good as each other offensively. I think Bell may have actually been a slightly better hitter minus the Power.
this is why i never watch the mlb hall, its like what are these voters thinking, i've seen guys who played 15 yrs and be great get almost no votes, but some dude who didnt even reach 7 seasons getting 3 times the vote because some writer wants to send a message about another player that got in like 20 yrs ago, BS
baseball has the best Hall of Fame because of its exclusivity. the problem is, the writers are being exclusive with the wrong guys. for example, scott rolen and tood helton should not be the exclusive late 90s power hitting candidates in the hall. this should be manny ramierz, barry bonds and alex rodriguez. keep it simple stupid - when you watched them play between the lines, did they suck the air out of the stadium? the first two guys did not, the later three did. keep the hall of fame exclusive, but stop with the morality and steroid exclusions, its sports not church
Rolen is a top 10 all time 3B,he deserves to be in. Helton's stats no matter how you cut it were clearly good enough. It's a moral issue with the PED guys.
Watch closely what happens with Buster Posey. If Posey gets in then I find it very hard to believe that Munson doesn't get a lot more support,they're far less hung up on the counting stats than they used to be.
Will Clark Jeff Kent Graig Nettles Bill Daheln Lance Berkman Carlos Beltran Bobby Abreu Curt Schilling Rick Reuschel Luis Tiant David Cone Chuck Finley No catchers or relievers have been snubbed
Jackson got railroaded....I don't like Nettles' BA....what about Frank White?....Tenace does not deserve consideration....Luis Tiant absolutely belongs....and why is there never any love for Vada Pinson? He is very deserving !
White is like a lesser version of Mazeroski. Minus the Famous Home Run and he never received any MVP votes in his career. No way. Pinson was a compiler who at one point happened to be Elite. The last decade of his career,he did nothing at all.
He's not going to get in this year. He may get in next year,especially if Beltran who has much better counting stats gets in this year. If he doesn't get in next year he's clearly getting in his 10th year. He probably breaks 70 percent this year with 2 years to go,he's getting in. And that ballot next year could be very weak if Beltran gets in this year. Jones would be the only chance for a player to make it next year. Utley seems like he's getting really good support. Curious what happens with Francisco Rodriguez once Wagner gets in,you would think his vote totals would spike up.
Bonds should 100 percent be in. He was a HOF hitter and the best hitter in the league before the steroids. PED's don't make a bad player great but they make great player's even better
Tony Fernandez was an outstanding short stop. 4 consecutive gold gloves, 5 all star appearances, lots of hits, lots of extra base hits, lots of stolen bases, and a very long career. But he didn't have home run power, so he would never get selected.
Dale Murphy basically was Braves baseball in the 1980s. He was a perrenial all star and class act. Plus, he won 5 gold gloves.
He belongs in the HOF more than other contemporaries like Harold Baines who was good and consistent but was basically just compiling stats as a DH for half his career.
Harold Baines was a good player for many years but NOBODY would have traded a prime Lofton or Murphy for him.
@@carseye1219 Yeah, I have nothing against Baines but I often use him as an example of a "compiler" or the Hall of Very Good. He was a good hitter for a long time and compiled stats but he either DH'd most of the time or played right field.
Guys like Murphy, Mattingley, and Lofton were legit stars in their day and are not in HOF but you are correct nobody would have traded them for Baines. Baines became a journeyman bat for hire basically.
@@STONESGAM Yeah, I don't think a lot of people ever said "Just don't let Harold Baines beat us".
Didn't Murphy win back-back National League MVP's in the early 80's? I recall he won at least one. Him and Bob Horner were a potent big bat power combo in the Braves lineup with Murphy being the more overall dangerous hitter.
@@jeffmccoy1700 He won 2 straight MVP's and had 4 straight seasons with 100 plus RBI'S during that time and won 4 gold gloves.
Got to call out Bill Freehan of the Tigers. 15 year career. 11 All Star game selections, 5 golden gloves War of 44.8 OPS of .752 OPS+ of 112. The man dominated the catcher position from 1965 to 1972. Came in 2nd in MVP voting twice behind Denny McLain in 1968 & 69.
Kenny Lofton is such a huge snub. He was one of those guys that was so good every year, people took it for granted.
The HOF is too easy to get into. Loved Lofton as a kid, but he's not a HOF'er.
It should be reserved only for the absolute best ever. Nobody ever confused Lofton with being the best player in baseball when he played.
I agree I think he's a hall of famer. He played during a power era where hitting for average, speed, and defense were not valued as much unfortunately.
@ He had an MVP caliber season and he's arguably a top 10 CF of all time. Just because you believe in the tooth fairy does not mean it's real
@@BrianKendall-p4h yes, because I think Lofton is a great player but not a HOFer means I believe in the tooth fairy.
Can't argue with that logic...
@@BrianKendall-p4h would be interested in seeing your CF rankings, since by your own admission he's borderline top 10
In 1936, four writers didn't vote for Ty Cobb. Eleven snubbed The Babe & Honus Wagner. Tell me again what made those idiots 'experts?'
To be fair, they were dealing with every single player to have played at that point. It's understandable to pick other players in that situation.
I don't think a lot of people understand this. Those early ballots were JAM PACKED with Decades of guys. There were only so many Votes to go around from different eras. That was the issue. That's the only reason Cy Young and other's didn't make it the 1st Ballot.
Because the ballot was flooded with decades of guys,only so many votes to go around. Cy Young didn't even make it 1st ballot
there were no restrictions on who to vote for and it was the first time anyone ever voted, no one knew the criteria
@ And you had maybe a handful that still fell through the cracks.
My dad has been a Sox fan since 1969 and he’s always told me that he doesn’t understand how Jim rice is in the hall of fame but Dwight Evans isn’t
haha nice
@LeaveTheDeadToTheDead I think Jim Rice came one season short of having a legit HoF career. If you take his 1987 season, for example, and replace his numbers with what he did in, let's say, 1979 or 1983, I think you could make a much better case for him. Especially if you judge his career against who is in the Hall NOW, as opposed to what the "ideal" is.
That's just me, though. What do you think?
I'm a Yankees fan.
But the Rice-Lynn-Dewey OF was tremendous!
Rice had a better mustache
The big knock on Rice was he was mostly a product of Fenway Park, which is how Goose got in before he did.
Let's not forget about Carlos Delgado. Dude was a beast!
Munson died in a plane crash, not a car crash. Great vid nonetheless
it was the peak of "died in a small plane crash" times as well
I think he’s referring to Campanella at that point, who was indeed paralysed in a car crash after a 9 year career.
He was talking about Campanella when he said that
@@jamesesterlinethank you for clearing that up. The phrasing and delivery of the automated narrator threw me off.
I think he said Roy campanella was in the car accident
Beyond the 2005 AL Cy Young snub, Johan Santana’s HOF case was likely also hurt by poor managing at both ends of his career.
Ron Gardenhire took way too long to trust him as a full- time starter. He was one of the best pitchers in 2002 and 2003 but threw only 258 innings in those two years combined, with approximately 50% of his appearances out of the bullpen.
And Jerry Manuel basically let him pitch until his arm fell off. Overworking him slightly in 2008 contributed to a string of missed time over the following three seasons. However, 2012 was much more egregious. Santana hadn’t pitched at all in 2011. Returning from injury, through the first two months of the season there was no real attempt made to limit his workload. He had been pitching well though, with an ERA around 3. Then he pitched two consecutive complete games, the second of which was his no hitter. He threw 134 pitches that game. Sure, it added slightly to his HoF case. But its impact on his chance at enshrinement seems far more negative. After the no-hitter, he made only 10 more starts with an 8.27 ERA. He went onto the IL with the same injury that had led to his missed 2011. Sadly, he never pitched in the bigs again, making several unsuccessful comeback attempts in his 30s before ultimately announcing his retirement in 2018 at the age of 39.
Just clicked. Better see Lou Whitaker.
The most obvious snub was left off your list - Dale Murphy!
GRAIG NETTLES: AT THE MOMENT HE RETIRED, HE WAS RANKED 23rd W MOST HOME RUN IN MLB HISTORY (390), EVERYONE IN THAT LIST HAS BEEN INDUCTED IN HALL OF FAME EXCEPT DAVE KINGMAN
There's a two time mvp with 5 gold gloves, 398hrs who is not in the hall of fame. In my opinion Dale Murphy is the biggest snub ever
Carlos Delgado at first base.
Don Mattingly
Overrated, Nathan and Johan deserve it more but are overlooked due to playing in Minnesota
@darrinthurston3308 🙄
@TonysMusic1974 Kent Hrbek is better than Mattingly
222 HR's as a 1B is not cutting it. Period
@BrianKendall-p4h home runs are boring and overrated. What was his career BA? WAR? On base?
MICKEY LOLICH: At the moment he retired, he was the lefty with most struck out in major league history, with 168 struck outs he would reach 3000, he got hurt and had to retire Also *TOMMY JOHN*
What other argument does Lolich really have? He didn't have that many accolades,the metrics aren't there. 217 Wins for a Pitcher of his Era are not that special. His only argument is 3,000 which he didn't get to.
The 5 year waiting period determines the HOF too
Not only did the HOF snub Dave Stieb, you did as well. Ouch. I think he is well deserving.
176 - 137 is not even close to a record a pitcher needs. He was very good and played for some crap teams, but sorry, not even close.
@@ashocck8065 Secret Base did a video arguing this. I recommend you watch it.
Heres a video idea- make a list of twenty to thirty players in thr Hall right now who you would kick out. Not because of character issues or breaking rules (right or not), but because their careers did not match HoF standards.
I'm thinking guys like Chick Hafey, Fred Lindstrom, Johnny Evers, Harold Baines, Rube Marquard, etc. I wager we could think of 30 or more who shouldn't be there.
Again, not because of any persinal animosity or because they weren't good moral people. I'm talking about what they did on the field.
Hope all is well!
Not sure I agree about Johnny Evers. He was the linchpin of great Cubs teams, and also led the miracle Braves in 1914. His offensive numbers were dampened by the dead ball.
I do agree that the HOF has too many members. Lots of the old NY Giants were put in by their ex-teammates on the Veterans Committee... Guys like George Kelly, Marquard, Lindstrom, etc.
You mentioned a bunch of Frisch Gang guys. They're only in because Frankie Frisch was the Biggest Tool Ever
@BrianKendall-p4h Yep. There are others who don't belong, but Frankie Frisch did as much damage to the standards of the Hall as anyone in MLB history.
@ He made it an unclear standard. There were mistakes made before and after him but he basically put all of the worst guys in aside from Tommy McCarthy who is the single worst. Bar none
kicking 'em out is a bit harsh, man.
Thoughts on Dave Stieb for SP? Feels like he's always overlooked. Love the video though!
I'm with you on this one. 7-time All Star. 4 top-10 Cy finishes, twice in the top-5. All for the underwhelming 80s Blue Jays. Well, they got better mid-80s with Jimmy Key. They had Doyle Alexander, too. George Bell. Jesse Barfield that one year he went for 40 dingers. A young Cecil Fielder. Tony Fernandez. But Stieb was consistent. I like that choice. Better than Harold Baines.
There are so many SP's like Steib and Santana with under 200 wins who are so incredibly close to each other. It's really difficult to put any in because of that. I doubt Santana ever gets in. Guys like Cone are different,he'd have 200 wins if not for a strike despite a shortened career. He's remarkably similar to Roy Halladay overall. But otherwise the guys like Schilling,John,Tiant and Reuschel are always going to have a better chance.
@@BrianKendall-p4h Tommy John is an absolute snub.
@ I agree. Schilling is too. If not for a strike shortened season Cone is identical to Roy Halladay(would have 200+ wins). I think Tiant and Reuschel no matter how you cut it are borderline but I saw both of them pitch. Both very good,for large parts of their careers they were hurt by bad teams that hurt their win totals. Tiant in Cleveland and Reuschel in Chicago and later Pittsburgh,it made people overlook how good they really were a large chunk of the time.
@BrianKendall-p4h I used to be on the Schilling bandwagon. But then he opened his mouth. Character clause. Schilling can rot.
Reuschel and Tiant kind of fall in the Hershiser category for me. Bulldog even won a Cy where as Reuschel and Tiant did not. But very similar stats. Hall of very good, I guess. Hershiser had 4 top 5 cy young seasons. Reuschel only had 3 as did Tiant. Otherwise, not a whole lot of individual accolades other than each of them had 3 all star appearances. I'm not saying these pitchers weren't great. Just not alot of hardware and middling counting stats for the era, which is what voters seem to look at.
Al Oliver. No gamblers, no steroids
No Power,no Speed,No Defense. Compiler
@@BrianKendall-p4hAl Oliver; no defense? LMFAO!!!!!
Another player that should gone in, but is not is Jim Edmonds.
I do agree.
This is a wonderful video. I don't agree wtih everything, but the points made are well-argued.
5:28 .... the Sherry MaGee photo selection is TOP tier... haha
Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should definitely be in the Hall. Cap Anson is in the Hall, and he gambled on the team he managed, so why is the Hall hypocrites!? Of course.
Bravo!!!!! SPOT-ON, my friend.
Excellent video, accurate selections, Blessings from San Juan 🇵🇷.
Davy Concepcion. SS. Cincinnati Reds. World Champions twice
He's not even close to Bill Dahlen. Dahlen blows him away offensively and relative to Era craps all over in terms of power relative to his peers. Dahlen is a horrible snub that should have been take care of decades ago at this point. Concepcion does not have HOF numbers for a SS
What's their beef with Gary Sheffield?
Steroid user, and an A-hole to boot.
three long ball hitters who were snubbed, Frank Howard, Norm Cash and Rocky Colavito. All 3 put up numbers equal to or better than some in the Hall
Rocky was an animal.
@@TheBatugan77 yeah he could really pound a baseball into orbit
Howard and Colavito are not close to HOF'ers. You're going way down the rabbit hole with those two
I loved Roy Campanella back in the day...saw him at Yankees old timers games, and he always got a long loud ovation.
I also loved Thurman. Pretty sure if Munson hit at Ebbets Field and Campy hit at Yankee Stadium, the two men would swap power numbers.
Catcher is the 1 position where you can't bat an eye at a Lack of Counting Stats(hits) about half of those in the HOF at that position including Campanella have well below 2,000. Even the GOAT,Johhny Bench is barely above 2,000.
@@BrianKendall-p4hsorry, Bench is not the GOAT, compare his stats to Berras equal, 3 mvp for Yogi and I won’t even mention the rings….
@ They were roughly even offensively but Bench grades out much better defensively. HOWEVER. I will point out that Berra has a positional adjustment because he played a good bit in Left Field. I think Yogi's up there but look at Wins Above Average- 46.6 for Bench and 33.9 for Yogi. Rings are a team stat,that is not a pre indicator of a better player.
Carlos Delgado deserves to be in the hof
Delgado has no argument other than the very high HR total. Still a better argument than Steve Garvey
It's an insult that Thurman Munson isn't in the hall of fame. On top of all his stats, he was the heart and soul of those championship teams.
3:46 "And a fu##### hill in center field" -sportsesque.
Jeff Kent?
Seriously how does this channel still only have 10k subs?
There is a 0% chance Rose ever gets in. You can argue hypocrisy on baseball’s part, but it’s still a baseball rule that you cannot be affiliated with the game and bet on baseball. No players, managers, coaches, front office personnel, or umpires. Rose not only bet on baseball, he bet on his own team and there is evidence, no smoking gun, that on at least four occasions, he bet on his team to lose. Now that he’s dead, he can never repent for his multiple egregious violations of the one rule everyone in the sport knew you can’t violate.
I am curious then, with regard to relief pitchers, where you'd rank Todd Jones. He was a long time closer for Houston and Detroit. And was dominant. As a detroiter, he was one of my all time favorites, but I wouldn't say HOF, but would put him in talks for consideration.
As for Sweet Lou, he is probably the most worthy of those who didn't make it at any position excluding the controversial ones.
Here are some ideas. For SP, do both right handed pitchers and lefties. Using this theory, Mickey Lolich should be in the Hall of Fame. He basically pitched, and hit, the Tigers to winning the 1968 World Series, winning 3 games. He pitched games 2,5, and7.
Luis Tiant....Vada Pinson....Bill Freehan?
@@davidhamilton7909 Pinson from age 27-36 was nothing more than a compiler. The dude didn't get a single MVP vote past the age of 25. With a Grand Total of 2 AS's and 1 Gold Glove. There's absolutely no way he's a better candidate than Lofton.
Sweet Lou>grich
I think Jeff Kent was snubbed for second base
This list is a joke ! Jeff Kent’s numbers are the best of any second baseman in baseball history by far !
@@VincentManiscalco Except defensively where he falters massively behind, because you know. There's more to the game than just offense. He wasn't a good defensive player at a Premium defensive Position. It's not hard to figure why he has Whitaker and Grich ahead of him,they still hit pretty well and they were light years better on defense. Do you actually think Kent with his well known defensive weakness was actually the better overall player?
@@BrianKendall-p4hKents defensive fielding pct is right there with Joe Morgan. Kent is definitely a Hof’er.
@ Fielding percentage is a worthless statistic
Kingman, Nettles, Munson, Vizquel, Evans, Jones...
It's amazing how they aren't in the Hall but other's are
Andruw Jones, Keith Hernandez, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, Danny Murtaugh, Bill Buckner, Jeff Kent, Jim Edmonds, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, David Cone, Dave Stieb. To name a few.
Lol @ Bill Buckner. Career WAR of 15. Career wins against average: -17.
Buckner is a joke.
@@jamesrfb the Hall of Good players for their era...
Jackson had half a career
Doesn't qualify due to his own IGNORSNCE
Lofton,.Edmonds both deserve the Hall
I think that without Machado's unnecessary destruction of Dustin Pedroia's knee on his slide past second base, Pedroia may have had a better chance of going into the HOF. You didn't mention him and of course he's only on his first ballot but not likely to get enough votes. I do think that Grich, Whitaker and probably Kent should all go ahead of him. Second base is a very underrepresented position in the hall. I also think that two other players you didn't mention, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy sure seemed like Hall of Fame players to me while they played. They were absolutely, the brightest of stars for the peak of their careers.
Mattingly has 222 HR's and lacks the Metrics as a 1B so that's like 2 major problems. The power numbers for that position aren't there and he lacks the metrics. Not sure i'd even put Hernandez in but he's probably the lone exception at that spot even though he'd have less than half as many HR's as the next closest Modern Era 1B(Helton). I wouldn't sleep on Pedroia getting in,I think he actually has a chance on the writers ballot because of said injury being put into consideration but those 3 you mentioned plus possibly Willie Randolph are more deserving overall. I saw Randolph's entire career and I honestly believe the only reason he didn't win at least a couple of Gold Gloves were due to his severe lack of power,he was probably a better fielder than Grich or Whitaker were overall but they had pretty decent power. Randolph was like a younger version of Nellie Fox and Billy Herman,has an easier go if he's up about 20 years earlier.
This is a joke right ? Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker ??? Jeff Kent has numbers that blow both Grich and Whitakers away !!! I find it amazing how this guy never got mentioned !! best numbers of any second baseman in baseball history
Yeah,except there's this thing called "Defense" where he in fact was not very good and Whitaker and Grich blow him away in that. It's not a joke at all. I think the kid did a wonderful job
@ I don’t care about Defense, who makes the Hall of Fame on defense besides Ozzie Smith ??? oh, so you’re saying to me that every one of the players in the Hall of Fame we’re great defensive players !! his numbers are better than any second baseman in the history of baseball. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.
@@VincentManiscalco I didn't say he didn't but i'd seriously question if you ever stepped foot on a field in your life if you actually mean "Defense doesn't matter". He also hit in a much more offensive oriented Era than Whitaker or Grich did. You put Kent in the 70's and 80's and you might be surprised how close the power numbers would have been. The point is,compared to other 2B in the HOF his defense lags behind considerably. I'd put him in but him having Whitaker and Grich ahead of him is justifiable when they were most likely better players overall. Defense should matter more than it has in the last 30 years in HOF voting.
@ I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I was a three sport athlete in high school play semi pro baseball. !! Again how many players get in the Hall of Fame because of their defense ?? he won an MVP during the steroid era. He was never implicated in using steroids during the Sosa Maguire Barry bonds era. He won an MVP !! 290 career batting average 377 hrs ! 1518 rbis ! 2461 hits !! if those are an MVP numbers I don’t know what are !! Compare them to any second baseman in major league, baseball history ! I never said defense doesn’t matter.! of course it matters on the playing field, but he wasn’t the worst defensive player ever ! I recall a young man name, Mike Piazza, who couldn’t throw anyone out ! Was a below average catcher defensively, but rightfully he’s in the Hall of Fame because his numbers are ridiculous. Just like Jeff Kent I hope you learn something today
@ there’s a guy name, Juan Soto, who every time a fly ball is hit his way you have to hold your breath !! if he continues hitting the way he is he’ll be a first ballot Hall of Famer !! I’m just trying to help you out kid
I’m not sure Gregg Nettles is a hall of famer, there might not be a third base snub right now. Also not convinced Beltran is a snub. He played way more games than most of his peers to get to his career totals. And the only conventional stat he ever led the league in was in games played at 162 in one season. I realize he wasn’t the biggest power guy so wasn’t likely to win a home run crown, but doubles, hits, runs, were possibilities. In their primes, I’d rather have Jim Edmonds.
Any chance for Tommy John??
Will Clark and Dale Murphy are my votes
Manny is a weird one to leave out, he tested positive for women's fertility drugs at the end of his career when he was already washed. I think the NY writers just like to hate on Boston.
How many SS have a career fielding % better than 0.984? Neither of the two are HoF bound.
Gene Tenace is NOT worthy of consideration. He was not a great defender like Munson.
I think Tenace was a good hitter but his Hit Total and very low BA are just not enough for me. Bill Freehan should have been Catcher #2
Totally agree... Also he didn't catch nearly enough games to be considered a catcher... he was a good utility player. Bill Freehan is much more deserving.
If any steroid user gets in? David Ortiz - who failed a PED test- is already enshrined in Cooperstown. There's no rhyme or reason to it, at this point. It's who was nice to sportswriters.
There's a discrepancy in the number of players who tested positive in that leaked report vs the official number. Testing back then was less reliable than it is today.
How about Donnie Baseball and Ron Guidry? Two huge snubs. I also find it odd that Mari’s’ bat is in the hall to commemorate his 61 homers in 61 but the player himself isn’t in. You can probably tell from this comment that I’m a huge Yankee fan! Lol!🎉😂
Maris already has his accomplishments listed within. His Career Stats don't warrant induction,1 singular moment should not make a guy a HOF'er. He had possibly the strangest career ever. He was positively great for 2 years,broke an historic record,had a couple other pretty good years although not close to the other two and was not even really All Star Caliber otherwise. He's also at 1,325 hits and he's NOT a Catcher. He's never getting in. Guidry isn't really any different than a bunch of other sub 200 wins guys and I feel the same way about Santana.
Any Bill James reader would view Nettles as deserving. Whitaker over Grich, but they are close. whitaker seriously measures up next to Sandburge, who was a first ballot. The MVP and steals put Sandburg above Whitake but their career similarity scores are close to identical
Speaking of the HOF, why the hell was CC Sabathia a first ballot HOFer? Good, but not amazing record with an almost 4 ERA. Eventual HOFer - yes. First ballot - TF, honestly. As far as those deserving from this list, Keith Hernandez and Graig Nettles are no brainers, IMO.
And not Andy Petite compared numbers
Evans, Lofton, and Boyer.
Bonds' HOF omission is without a doubt the most egregious thing in all of sports.
I think that lofton Kent in because he played on so many different teams
Might need to look at 1st base again.. Don Mattingly should have been in years ago
I agree with most of these and they are all reasonable picks
A-Rod is the best SS and the best 3B not in the HOF. Yes, it's obvious why not.
I gotta say a big fat NO to Carlos Beltran and I got 2 words why: trash can. If Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Rose, et. al. aren't getting in for cheating or allegedly cheating, Beltran is in that same group. I'll say the same thing for Altuve when it's his turn, too. I would add to the list of biggest snubs Jeff Kent, Bret Saberhagen and Ron Guidry. Maybe Dave Concepcion. And Fernando because he could hit.
Concepcion was not close to the snub Dahlen is. Dahlen has far better metrcis,Dahlen was a much better overall hitter despite playing in the Dead Ball Era and his Power Numbers are barely below Dahlen despite Dahlen basically trying to hit a Wet Rag of a Ball. Both were Elite Defensive players in their day but Dahlen relative to his era was clearly better,he should have been in decades ago and it is awful at this point how he's not in.
You missed Dale Murphy.
So who manages this team, Billy Martin?
You got third base completely wrong.
The biggest hall of fame snub at third base is Ken Beywer.
It should be Boyer #1 and then Nettles or Buddy Bell in whatever order at 2/3. I don't see how you can have one of the latter two without the other. Anybody who saw them both play realizes how damn good they were with the glove,Nettles had more power but they were about as good as each other offensively. I think Bell may have actually been a slightly better hitter minus the Power.
this is why i never watch the mlb hall, its like what are these voters thinking, i've seen guys who played 15 yrs and be great get almost no votes, but some dude who didnt even reach 7 seasons getting 3 times the vote because some writer wants to send a message about another player that got in like 20 yrs ago, BS
As good as Hernandez was, Mattingly should get in before him.
baseball has the best Hall of Fame because of its exclusivity. the problem is, the writers are being exclusive with the wrong guys. for example, scott rolen and tood helton should not be the exclusive late 90s power hitting candidates in the hall. this should be manny ramierz, barry bonds and alex rodriguez. keep it simple stupid - when you watched them play between the lines, did they suck the air out of the stadium? the first two guys did not, the later three did. keep the hall of fame exclusive, but stop with the morality and steroid exclusions, its sports not church
Rolen is a top 10 all time 3B,he deserves to be in. Helton's stats no matter how you cut it were clearly good enough. It's a moral issue with the PED guys.
The Hall of Fame is a disgrace.
Its a shame reporter's get any vote. It should only be players and managers. Not some dweeb with a typewriter who sells articles with thier vote.
Tony Fernandez should be in.
Why? Literally why?
Rick Reuschel & Dwight Evans
Glass what now?
How does Tim "The Freak" Linscium stack up? Is he even close?
He's not close.
@@BrianKendall-p4h I thought the if he had won 1 more cy young, he would have made it
@ The problem is the little dude only had 4 good years. 2 of them being great. His body just broke down
@@BrianKendall-p4h True. but I think with 3 cy youngs, it would have been enough. Koufax had 6 great years, the rest pretty average.
@ Koufax had 6 god like years. Not taking anything away from Tim but there are a lot of guys like him that are not nor will they ever get in.
Munson should be in HOF
Watch closely what happens with Buster Posey. If Posey gets in then I find it very hard to believe that Munson doesn't get a lot more support,they're far less hung up on the counting stats than they used to be.
Will Clark
Jeff Kent
Graig Nettles
Bill Daheln
Lance Berkman
Carlos Beltran
Bobby Abreu
Curt Schilling
Rick Reuschel
Luis Tiant
David Cone
Chuck Finley
No catchers or relievers have been snubbed
Jeff Kent and Lou Whittaker are crazy snubs
Jackson got railroaded....I don't like Nettles' BA....what about Frank White?....Tenace does not deserve consideration....Luis Tiant absolutely belongs....and why is there never any love for Vada Pinson? He is very deserving !
White is like a lesser version of Mazeroski. Minus the Famous Home Run and he never received any MVP votes in his career. No way. Pinson was a compiler who at one point happened to be Elite. The last decade of his career,he did nothing at all.
Joe Nathan over eric Gagne is kind if crazy
No,it's really not. Gagne was a good for like 3 years. Lol
Nettles was one of my favorite players in the mid 70s and mid 80s...
Just put Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Pete Rose in already. Rose is dead now, and it won't be too long for the other two.
Steve Garvey !!!!!
Nettles' OPS and batting average are not HOF-worthy.
And Dave Concepcion?
Not as big of a snub as Dahlen at SS. Or Glasscock who was the best SS for probably the first 40 years of the game
Andrew Jones 🤝🫡
He's not going to get in this year. He may get in next year,especially if Beltran who has much better counting stats gets in this year. If he doesn't get in next year he's clearly getting in his 10th year. He probably breaks 70 percent this year with 2 years to go,he's getting in. And that ballot next year could be very weak if Beltran gets in this year. Jones would be the only chance for a player to make it next year. Utley seems like he's getting really good support. Curious what happens with Francisco Rodriguez once Wagner gets in,you would think his vote totals would spike up.
Bonds should 100 percent be in. He was a HOF hitter and the best hitter in the league before the steroids. PED's don't make a bad player great but they make great player's even better
Beltran = 🗑
He did bang on trash cans but his stats speak for themselves,he's clearly there statistically. He was never suspended or anything of that sort
No Mickey Lolich?
Tony Fernandez was an outstanding short stop. 4 consecutive gold gloves, 5 all star appearances, lots of hits, lots of extra base hits, lots of stolen bases, and a very long career. But he didn't have home run power, so he would never get selected.
Barry bands is the biggest snub ever you can moan to me about steroid it doesn’t matter
What about Vada Pinzon?
So excited that Dave Parker is going into the HOF!
Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Roger Maris, Billy Martin and Elston Howard ⚾⚾⚾⚾⚾
Thurman Munson, accident was not a car, it was a plane!
He was not talking about Munson regarding the car accident