In Defense of Nathaniel | Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2017
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Twitter: / harrisonchute
Email: bagelsaftermidnight@gmail.com
In Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, a women-driven show taking place in a racially diverse part of the country, the straight white man isn’t the default. How does the ultimate version of such a thing fit in? - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Hey, just wanna say that Aline and I are huge fans of this channel and it's super fascinating for us to watch these videos!
racheldoesstuff Oh, my God! Thank you so much! You're both so awesome I can't even believe it
racheldoesstuff these videos are amazing (like your show)! I was so hoping you guys would get to watch them. such a clever analysis of a super clever show!
*Insert insane fangirl gushing* Love you, Rachel! You're one of my heroes. Keep up the amazing work! And thank you so much for you and your team's commitment to diversity. I've been waiting for a show like My Crazy Ex for my entire life and didn't know it. You rock!
OMGOMGOMGOMG
I love you and your work.
And this channel!
racheldoesstuff OMFG THANK YOU FOR MAKING ONE OF THE BEST FUNNIEST MOST TOPICAL SHOWS I'VE EVER SEEN!!! It's also great to see Judaism shown relatably instead of the stereotype you normally see, I've never related to a song more than remember that we suffered!!! 😍😍😍😊😊😊❤❤❤🔥🔥🔥😆😆😆👏👏👏
I can't be the only person who picks up on the obvious hints that Nathaniel has an eating disorder. They make it really obvious and I think that this show is the only thing that gives a good and real view of an eating disorder because it's not the average pretty white teen girl who has long hair and an otherwise perfect life and how the signs are really obvious but people don't seem to notice. I also didn't say might because I know I'm right about this I can feel it.
hmmm...am still watching season 3...but good observation...
Good point.
I saw that very quickly as well. It was quite obvious. You are completely right that people don’t notice. People tend to not notice when men have disorders that are commonly seen in women.
so damn well said... especially the second half of your comment
Whoa...nice catch.
What is so amazing about ''Crazy Ex-Girlfriend'' is that everyone has a voice. Every single character, from Rebecca and Josh, to ''sidekicks'' like Paula and Daryl to ''antagonists'' like Nathaniel and Valencia to minor ''random'' people we meet, has their personality; their virtues, their faults, their pet peeves and their imperfections. That is what makes it so interesting. Them being diverse in terms of color, age, ethnicity and gender is just highlighting how specific they all are.
They are partially meant to be archetypes (cause this show IS comedy after all), but that might not be the stereotypes we'd expect. For example, Josh isn't a nerdy math genius or is White Josh a typical gay best friend. Their personal issues are, more often than not, not directly linked to their race or sex. And *that* is precisely the reason why they are so relatable and so humane. I, as a white male, have been identifying with Rebecca, Josh, Paula, Valencia, Greg, Heather and ALL of the characters at some point. I recognized Josh's tendency to ignore his problems, Paula's living through other people or Rebecca's self-loathing over appearance or wanting to be accepted for who she is. It's because those problems aren't strictly tied to one's race, age or gender, but rather universal.
It is fascinating how Nathaniel might actually be the first important character they had whose archetype is strictly linked to his race and gender, because a white guy is usually taken as a ''default'' by American media. Gosh, I hated that character when he arrived. He reminded me of every entitled person I had to deal with. And yet, now I love him. As with everyone else, Rachel and Aline did an amazing job, showcasing his personality and personal insecurities, which made him more relatable and more layered.
Am I the only one that just realised just how diverse CXG is? Like I never thought of White Jo as "the gay one" or Josh as "the Asian guy" etc. I just think of them as Josh and WJo. It really never hit me until this video and I think that's amazing.
Bot 134340 who do you think is endgame for Rebecca?
I'm surprised you didn't talk about the fact that Nathaniel is rich!!! That is a huge part of his character. There are other straight white men on the show but what is more notable about him is he comes from this really wealthy upper class family and you get to see the obvious privilege of that, but also the downsides. The emotional constipation and deeply cold stilted relationship he has with his parents, especially his father, is something that is of course not unique to upper class families *at all* but does seem to be common among them, and how it's interesting how some things can be a sign of privilege and also emotional neglect at the same time, like being raised by a nanny instead of parents and being sent to boarding school at a young age. I don't say this to be like 'aww think of the rich people' but it's more like, how the ridiculous unequal society harms everyone, even those at the top! I thought Nathaniel's character was an interesting examination of that. Also spoilers - I love how he starts volunteering at the jail and learns how "there is a lot of unfairness in the law actually" and is incredulous because he had been in such a naïve privileged bubble. And his becoming better arc is just amazing. I really love how it is sparked by Heather's blunt straight-talking too. What a great character!
He's not a caricature if you've ever met a white male business major
When I started to watch the show, I got so used to seeing non straight white males (without really noticing it, even) that when Nathaniel came it rubbed me the wrong way.
I was like "oh no, I'm gonna hate him". And I did but then he turned to be a great addition to the show and a real way to show people learning from them mistakes and changing for the better.
I'm white and I'm from so CA. I always found it so weird watching tv and seeing an all white cast. It always made me wonder "what place actually looks like this?" then I moved to the midwest where it's basically all white people... so then I understood how people thought white as a majority/all white television shows were normal. I'm glad I grew up where I did. Made me appreciate all the different people that exist.
I like how this show took me from wanting her with Greg to Nathaniel and I do like how it ended overall with no one really getting that shot because she needed to be by herself I still hope somewhere down the line her and Nathaniel worked out.
This is a really great analysis. Very interesting take. I was a little skeptical of Nathaniel's character at first- mostly because my first thought was, "Didn't we just lose the love triangle?" But as we got to know him a little more, I almost immediately liked him, both as an antagonist and a kind of mirror character for Rebecca. He is, after all, from the same kind of life as her, with similar parental issues. Although, most of the reason I ended up liking him was his interactions with Darryl.
Anyway, I think you really pinpointed what makes him fit into the show, and why the show itself is so special.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing more of him. Even when he's not at the center of the plot, he's really funny
Honestly the tredemill scene instantly changed the way i saw him.and as the season went on i started liking him more and more.
I am Team Nathaniel, despite his being a straight white male.
I agree, I was born in Oakland and grew up in Alameda, I was raised around diversity(I have Asian and African American cousins), born from diversity(my mother is Mexican), Crazy Ex Girlfriend represents so wonderfully what diversity truly is like, and how normal it is.
I have a similar experience, though my diverse family is only two races. So it's great to hear the show reflects your even more multicultural life
Re: Imagined futures and alternate worlds, I was ultimately struck by how even characters who do questionable, unethical, unkind, or skeevy things on the show don't even seem to *think* about perpetrating sexual assault. When Nathaniel and Rebecca are in the elevator together, it's seemingly taken for granted that he's not going to try to hurt, threaten, or forcefully take advantage of her. I actually found that pretty refreshing, and it's sad and telling that I found it as refreshing as I did.
I mean, the song about hoping the Tinder date isn't a murderer is pretty pointed, and pretty much everyone woman's experience.
I agree, and the same goes for Trent. At no point was it suggested that he might try something like that. I think Paula asks about it at one point and Rebecca waves off the possibility completely. I hadn't really thought about the fact that the world of the show was a type of imagined future, but I think it describes it really well. (I seem to remember there was workplace harassment stuff from Tim and Jim in the first episode though? I worried about that and then the characters took different directions)
This is a remarkable reflection. I've found myself religiously watching Crazy Ex-Girlfriend more and more since the ascent of Cheeto Hitler, and this is an spot-on explanation of why the show is so cathartic right now. Nicely done!
Thanks! And yeah, the show is exactly that. To a T
I love the shade of showing clips from the "Ghost in the Shell" big-budget travesty when talking about whitewashing. I grew up, and live, in Northern California and the world of CExG has always felt much less artificial than other shows to me because of the very natural diversity. My high school's most popular band was a ska group composed of two Filipino guys, a white girl, and two Mexican guys.
The uniform whiteness of shows like Girls and Friends makes them feel less real to me than the dark, surreal musical that is Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.
My fiancé and I eventually fell in love with Nathaniel. It was a really enjoyable experience now I think about it because we hated him so much when we first saw him.
Similar to (like you mentioned) Jesse Pinkman. I actually hated Jesse at the beginning of Breaking Bad because I grew up around guys like that (well....the British equivalent anyway). But he very quickly became my favourite character.
You don't need to defend Nathaniel for me, I already bloody love himmmm
This is quite deep...and makes me love the show all over again. Thanks
That's great to hear -- thank you!
This was a great analysis of racial dynamics and how they're portrayed in one of my favorite shows ever. The title of the video was a bit misleading, I think this was more a general talk about race on ceg and why Nathaniel compliments it so well. Checking out your other vids, if you do more of the like, you got yourself a subscriber. I'm used to in depth analysis of shows like GoT, but seeing it for the masterpiece ceg really brightens my heart. I hope you do some stuff on JTV too?
Thanks! I've seen clips of Jane and I certainly wouldn't be opposed to checking out the whole thing
Oh my God, you haven't watched it yet? I highly recommend, it's a masterpiece of subtly feminist media (like CEG).
The treatment of diversity feels so normal in Crazy-ex in a way that I’ve never seen before. People are just people and their culture isn’t completely stripped from them (a la Bridgerton) nor is it their whole personality.
I champion this show all the time to as many as possible and it's so frustrating that it's not catching like it should! I loved this analysis- really profound and I love how the full circle ENDS with the straight white male guy, the last bastion of privilege - and how it says, yes buddy, I know you think everyone hates you now but they don't, they just want you to get your shit together and realize you are NOT the default character in life. Subscribing because this was so well done. Congrats. And yes, DO show Rachel. She would appreciate it, I"m certain.
Thanks! Yeah, it's super frustrating -- they say CXG is the lowest rated show... on TV?? Why is no one watching it?
Because it dares.
ahh
I clicked on this at first thinking it was a promo for the new ep....but then I couldn't stop watching. Oh my god was this interesting not to mention extremely relevant and also exactly what I needed right now.
Thank you!
He's the Logan Echolls of Crazy Ex Girlfriend, the audience was supposed to root for Duncan Kane aka Josh Chan but they primarily find him dull. The other option is the mean, yet surprisingly not so mean Nathaniel/Logan. A good hate turned love or at least like relationship is always a win on shows like this. They both use their father figures to explain why they act the way they do, why they try to tear down the female protagonist, Veronica/Rachel.
Ahh Veronica and Logan. Their romance... was epic
Ahhh yes, as soon as you mentioned the "character you least expect to be sympathetic will probably turn out to be sympathetic" I immediately thought of Logan and I think they did that absolutely brilliantly on Veronica Mars. Glad to hear you watched VMars as well but that makes a certain kind of sense as a Crazy Ex-Girlfriend fan.
LifeIsABeach3210 oh man yes! I was wondering why I shipped them so hard. I thought it was because Scott Michael Foster was everything I loved about Chasing Life, but comparing them to Veronica & Logan makes a lot of sense. 😋👏🏼
Bagels After Midnight I like what you did there. 💜😉
Bagels After Midnight I know you posted this 3 years ago but please do a Veronica Mars video
Can I just say I love all of the videos on this channel?? I love when people deconstruct media, and I've been desperately craving some Crazy Ex Girlfriend analysis. It's so well done! Please continue.
Thank you!
Thank you so much for this, it makes so much sense. Very interesting and kind of heartwarming. I already loved this show for numerous reasons, including its diversity, but I didn't think this far ahead.
Thank you!
This was extra interesting to watch with the knowledge of the rest of the season. Nathaniel had possibly the best character arcs of the entire show, with so much growth. I hate-loved him for the longest time, and then loved him intensely by the end, I was 100 % Team Nathaniel. He's the male mirror of Rebecca, who started off as the successful, driven lawyer herself. But this video made me think of something else, who is Nathaniel for, if we don't think "his type" is watching? I think there may be a case for him being shown as a part of the whole, not above, not other. As a feminist from Northern Europe, I am very liberal, but I see the white male othering of themselves, and our feminist othering of them, too. And that's complicated, difficult and painful for all of us. To portray a "villain" WASPY character as a fully formed person, with the ability to grow and change, but at the same time completely being himself, there's a lot of value in that for the liberal audience as well. At least it was for me. Nathanial could've been a one-dimensional villain, but the beautiful writing, directing and acting in this show, made him so much more interesting and relatable, for everyone.
Please continue to make these video essays. This is incredible.
Thanks!
I'm totally Team Greg, but after multiple rewatches of the show, Nathaniel is definitely growing on me.
So glad I found your channel, dude. I wish all pop-culture reviews were as well-rounded as yours. Keep up the good work.
I'm watching these in the run up for Season 3 returning (yay)! Honestly so I didn't think I could love this show more but your analysis just brings it to a new level. Thank you.
This was so interesting and well done and now I want to re-watch the entire show with your perspective in mind. Very well done, so glad you made this :)
Thank you! Yeah, rewatching the show is great -- you definitely pick up on new things
watching this actually made me realize I had been villianizing straight white male characters in other forms of media (and irl) as well. it was kind of eye opening to the way I've been approaching the world, in a way.
anyways! I love these videos! I love how you explore ideas one would not normally think of
I’ve also seen some really interesting arguments about Nathaniel being the sort of person who isn’t inherently “good” by society’s standards and it shows someone who has to work to be good
Thanks for the 'readable' option, I always miss them in video essays...
it's cool that the straight white male who does exemplify hegemonic masculinity to a tee is also someone deeply insecure to the point of actual harm to his health because of his need to appeal to his patriarch. the show is still disavowing this male ideal in the one person who can embody it. it's this picture of diversity that includes everyone, but the commentary is more like "hey, in case you didn't get it, there's nothing inherently wrong with straightness or maleness, but as a construct in this society? it's terrible to chase." which i think in some ways is the ultimate disavowal. people of other races and orientations have to reject the Construct because they simply have no place in it, but more increasingly, in nathaniel it's becoming more and more clear that there is a larger Construct that he is actively choosing to attain which does himself harm. so real world anxieties about having this identity are present in such a kind and graceful way.
i think it's important to do here because people conflate antagonizing the Construct with people who embody its preferred identities. And i think it's important to realize that privileges awarded to you by way of your identity are real, but they have to be actively critiqued because there's a duality of power that exists where for one to be powerful another must be subject to that power. and there's a lot of cool things going on here i can't even begin to unpack.
basically it's also a great foil to rebecca's complex relationship with empowerment and the patriarchy where in a lot of ways she tries to subvert it but has so much of it internalized she creates her identities on the men in her life and where she places as a subject of the patriarchy- she very much feels she must need a man to be happy, and while it's her right to pursue men, it's unhealthy to define herself only in relation to them and she often misses out on her own virtues because of this. nathaniel has similar issues where he is the guy who fits into the patriarchy's image of dominance in so many ways, but it ultimately disempowers him to define himself in relation to it.
Wow, this was so much deeper than I expected, and it's brilliant. Great analysis!
Thank you, so very much, for making this channel. You are the first reviewer I've watched that as been able to deliberately deconstruct an amazing show and its creation, and possible cancellation, so succinctly, while still challenging me to dig deeper. Please continue to post!!!
So, I have just found your channel, and I can't stop watching your videos. Really great analysis of everything :)
Im rewatching this for maybe the fifth time and im just now realizing how fucking raw of a line "when i die, no matter how i go, i will have in some way been murdered by media. It led me, irrevocably, to my final moment" is to put at minute 15 of a 16 minute video essay about a (albeit fantastic) musical comedy show.
That is hysterical. Probably literally
Fascinating! So deep. Thank you. CEG is a treasure- brilliant on so many levels. Thank you for highlighting this!
Thank you so much for taking the time to create such a well developed and intricate video essay. I really appreciate your work and I wish you all the best! Crazy Ex-Girlfriend deserves this level of analysis, it is such a landmark show.
Thank you!
Wow. I really really love these videos Crazy Ex Girlfriend videos you're creating. You please keep making them! Your analysis is so astute and insightful and I just really appreciate how deep and detailed you get with this and noticing things I would never think of?? It's wonderful to nice to see Crazy Ex Girlfriend get the attention and appreciation it deserves. You are brilliant, please keep doing what your doing, make more videos, I can't wait to see more of your thoughts and insights on Crazy ex girlfriend (and other tv shows in the future for that matter!)
Wow that's high praise! Thank you
Your analyses are so interesting! And I completely agree that media has an important role in shaping our ideas of the future - and what the future can be.
As always thoughtful, beautifully constructed and intelligent analysis bringing a whole new depth to Crazy Ex Girlfriend. I love your style Bagels after Midnight.
These videos are really fascinating and you make some really interesting points. I love Crazy Ex-Girlfriend for exactly this reason and agree it should be seen by everyone. It's so seamless the way they switch between stories, genres, and stereotypes and build something that is closer to reality than any of them by including them all.
Incredibly interesting points about a show that I love for entertainment but never bothered to think critically about. Just discovered your channel, and watched all your videos. I hope you continue this series.
Thank you for watching!
Great video with some very interesting observations. The song that the cast sang in response to Nathaniel's arrival addressed some of the possible reasons that he was brought to the show. Is it possible that bringing him in as a potential love interest could impact the show's ratings? We'll see in Season 3. An episode of the show Master of None dealt with the reasons why there could not be 2 minorities as leads on a TV show. i like that Nathaniel told Rebecca's father that he would not be flying on the private plane. Rebecca's father - not a good guy.
This is awesome, and I wish we had more people discussing and analyzing this amazing show. Keep up the awesome content! :)
I think your analyses have convinced me to go buy this series on DVD (since I have no cable). I already loved Rachel from before the show, and I can't get enough of the soundtrack. But you make the show itself sound so interesting and multilayered, and also fun and relatable, I now want to actually watch the whole thing. Proof of the benefits of letting people talk about something online.
Thanks!
First video I've ever seen by you and I have to say, subscribed. I was astounded by your analysis and how informed you were. Two enthusiastic thumbs up.
thanks!
God I love well-articulated, well-edited video essays. Reminds me of Chez Lindsay's videos, which is pretty much my gold standard for these along with Every Frame A Painting.
Edit: rewatchable too. Forgot I commented the first time I watched. Also, screaming at the clip of Tarantino when talking about the ego of the majority writing the minority.
Tarantino is relentless with that
What was almost said, but never quite directly said, is that the concept of diversity is one that causes many to think that they will have to step aside and make space for someone else. That this step aside will, summarily, make them have less space. By the introduction and welcoming in of Nathaniel there's the implicit statement and recognition that there's a group of people who feel alienated despite being the majority because they do not feel "invited in" to participate. The landscape of change and multi-culturalism for whatever reason has previously seemed as if it was saying but not you. Through the act of welcoming in a character like Greg or like Nathaniel it is a reminder that this isn't an either-or situation. The act of including others into this diverse landscape does not mean precluding anyone. Nathaniel's inherent discomfort with the others in this situation due to his own hang-ups and preconceptions cause him strife but once he's able to truly be included (and is willing to include himself) into the same situation... the situation as a whole becomes... well, as the first song said, a lot more nuanced.
Agreed. I'm really interested to see where they take his character in season 3, both plot-wise and thematically
You're amazing. We just need more pop culture in depth readings and interpretations without getting slapped the "silly fangirl" stigma.
Wow, this was such a good analysis! I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the season finale and your thoughts on the direction of the show going forward
Thank you!
You mentioned his filmography and that he clearly wanted to change his image at some point. I was trying to find out why he looked familiar, and it took someone else talking about it to realize I recognized him from the five episodes I saw of Greek where he was set up as the cool, kinda scruffy other guy to the blonde waspy guy. And I remember thinking the contrast didn't really ring true since this was still a very white, aggressively straight alpha male of the Animal House type fraternity
This video was about Nathaniel but somehow I felt like it wasn’t about him either ... idk
Aww "Selfie" reference. Another of my favorite shows. I miss it!
Maybe it was a little too radical. But where else do you find Karen Gillan and David Harewood doing American accents?
What a fantastic video! Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is one of my favorite examples of the power of art to bring about community and progress and, yes, maybe even utopia. Sigh. What a wonderful thought. Excited to check out the rest of your content.
This was incredibly articulate, and makes me love the show on a whole other level.
Wow! Thank you!
can we please show rachel bloom this?
haha. I'd die of embarrassment
Rachel would LOVE this, are you kidding?
matthew walker Pleeeaase someone should tweet her this...
She commented above!
I could listen to you talk for hours, honestly
That's very kind but you would want to stab me in short order
This video was great and I don't really have any meaningful commentary to offer, I'm just SO happy I clicked on this channel and look forward to watching all your stuff, but oh man, you just reminded me of how much I miss Selfie :'(
This is a great video and has really made me think about so many aspects of the show! The main one being is that i didn't until now realise how truly diverse the show is and how deliberate that is. They focus so much on the characters personality and development that they don#t become stereotypes. Their unique qualities play into their identity rather than their identity being their one unique quirk. I feel that this is so the way it should be done!
Let CXG be a lesson then to other TV shows. It's a great template for storytelling in increasingly sensitive... times, well, that's how things WERE going, but alas. Now shows like this are urgent
This is extraordinary analysis. I'm hooked. xx
Another reason why people like Nathaniel like characters is because seeing a tough guy (or girl) show his soft always tears at the heart strings
Hi! Your voice is lovely :). You put on words what I felt after watching the whole 2 seasons within a week ;) amazing ! And express real problema we deal on a daily basis...
Thank you!
"Utopia blueprint", I love that. Excellent analysis.
Thanks!
Your channel is amazing. I just love your thoughts and your analysis.
Subscribed and watching all the videos - especially Crazy Ex-Girlfriend's.
Thanks!
I am in awe of the brilliance this show! Yay, Rachel Bloom! You are an inspiration!
I had to subscribe to you after watching this video. I was really grateful for some new insights and so glad to hear someone else say what I have been thinking in regards to other areas. I hope to see even more Crazy Ex Girlfriend videos from you.
thanks! Hopefully Sunday morning, a S2 recap...
Came to this channel for the crazy ex girlfriend analysis, was happily surprised by your focus on utopian politics and prefiguring those in sci fi (OR MUSICALS?!?)
Impressive analysis. Hoping for lots more videos as well as many many more seasons of CXG
Fingers crossed!
This analysis was very thoughtful and is desperately needed at this point. Thank you very much!
Thank you!
Nathaniel rules. Also OMG Rachel and Aline watch your channel?!?!? Beyond dreams! Amazing!
Super smart analysis! Well done. I live and work in the Ess Gee Vee and the cast looks just like my life here - ridiculously diverse and yet NBD. I love the idea of Nathaniel's role in imagining true inclusivity.
Thank you! That's so awesome to hear about the Sans Gabes Vales
Wonderful video. Your underlying thesis is a smart and thoughtful point. Oh, and showing two of my favorite resonant and progressive fictional universes (Mass Effect and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) made it feel like glitter exploded inside me.
Also a great point about diversity in fiction reflecting real life. I also grew up in Southern California, and the population of the show really reflects what I grew up with.
I want to tattoo Mass Effect on my forehead, whatever that means. Maybe the code, just all over my body
I love this channel, you are doing a great job. Thank you so much!
Thanks!
I've always appreciated the uniqueness of the show's cast, but your video's analysis was wonderful and really thought provoking! I felt like it got cut off at the end there, but you probably just didn't want to go off on another tangent on Scott Michael Foster's filmography. I hope you end up doing other shows as well in the future.
Hehe, that was my own attempt at a stinger, or a 'tag' per the CXG scripts
THIS CHANNEL IS EVERYTHING I NEED IN MY LIFE - bravo sir
Thank you for watching!
i subscribed after this video. very real and im wondering if the bagels comment in this show from season one is a plug.
Play that Funky Music is the ancestor of the theme of "The white man can and will adapt to the new diverse future"
Excellent content. Thanks for sharing. Subscribed, and looking forward to the next one. :)
Oh, and can you do a "why you should watch" video with your perspective?
That's a great idea! I'd love to do something people who haven't seen the show can actually watch. The next video is a season 2 recap -- it's been a good run!
7 years late but want to say, in 2024, that I appreciate your discussion of "white genocide" and white man identity. I've been researching the US far + white supremacist right since 2015, and I wish more people had been as in tune with white race politics as you clearly were in 2017. I wish CXG wasn't written off so easily by misogynists, because this show is one of the few to consider a man like Nathaniel with complexity (to an audience that is likely to reduce him to his various social statuses).
Really enjoying your videos - your analysis is sharp and thoughtful :)
Nathaniel really is a villain. And sort of an irredeemable one. One of his first acts on the show was to fire George, not for anything George did, but out of spite and to prove a point to Rebecca and Darryl. That puts him beyond the pale of previous antagonists like Valencia, Audra Lavine, and even Rebecca's mother. The interesting thing is that as the show is fleshing him out and his relationships with the other characters... it isn't actually enlightening Nathaniel. He's surrounded by people like Maya who would repeatedly take the fall for his gastrointestinal distress and Darryl who would take him to the hospital and give him a backup suit, but it isn't pushing him into a more thoughtful or generous space. His single major magnanimous act (getting Rebecca's father to her wedding) is tainted by his own selfish motivations. He still treats the office as a power struggle where he has to assert his dominance. Which kind of makes him dim as few people in that office could have dominance asserted over them (attempting to assert dominance over Karen would be an exercise in futility).
So the central tension of the character is will the acceptance and compassion of Whitefeather and Associates push him to become vastly more empathetic? So far the answer seems to be "no." Instead their empathy towards him (and his general exile to West Covina) seems to have pushed him into the same mental breakdown Rebecca was having in New York. He's not a better person, he's someone who is decompensating.
I'm curious if Nathaniel sticks around next season if the show will allow him to become empathetic on some level, or if he will remain the show's villain.
Well, I guess it just depends on personal views, if anyone is ever truly irredeemable. He used to be a lot worse ("Don't know what happened / Maybe you lost some weight") but is beginning to demonstrate change.
His villainhood will probably also be dependent on the plot of season 3, I suppose
I think...yeah that makes sense. I just kind of ignored that because he's good-looking (god, I'm an idiot, aren't I)? Though I do think he deserves empathy, he's not used to that kind of world and redeeming himself needs to be his first step. I think that he grew up in a very white and elitist culture, and instead of Rebecca, accepted it and assumed what was (indirectly) told to him to be true, This is now his world view, but it's being challenged by diverse West Covina. Remember that Rebecca was also very selfish in the beginning but changed halfway through the first season. To Nathaniel, life is about achieving goals and being productive, no matter your mental or physical state (he believes these are not barriers), so basically the general american work/office culture, and he has been doing this all his life. The thing is, since Nathaniel hasn't had the disadvantages Rebecca encountered in her lifetime (from being female and jewish), he is basically blind to what they are and had never thought of actually investigating their nature.
I'm sorry if it's a bit all over the place, but...my point is: Nathaniel views people who don't work hard enough as losers, but this affects himself far more than it does the people around him, and he's starting to notice it. His inability to take a sick day leads to big embarrassment, his strictness is dealt with in a clever way by Rebecca, who chooses protection of her coworkers over her own "happiness", his "relapse of judgement" from eating candy leads to a bad accident which results in him losing a tooth, his constant talk of his father leads to Rebecca mocking him, etc. These are all things Nathaniel had coming, but they also lead to him deserving empathy since you can clearly see he's basically broken inside.
What he does get away with, however, is the way he views Rebecca's body and his comments about it, I hope that will be addressed in the future. Also his double firing of Glen. And, of course, him trying to persuade Rebecca to cheat on Josh. This last thing is of course a really bad thing to do, but it also makes sense to leave Rebecca in a position where she gets to choose what to do: this is a judgement of her character. If Nathaniel had refused to have sex with her or hadn't even been attracted to her in the first place, it wouldn't have stirred things up and we wouldn't have known what Rebecca had done what she did here.
Of course, Nathaniel has done a few good things out of pure empathy, or maybe because he started seeing examples of empathy around him. He assigned Darryl more leadership, he took the trouble to find out Gene's name, and I do think that what he did for Rebecca was a selfless act, or at least not entirely selfish: yes, he does have a thing for her, I think, and seeing Rebecca happy with her father made him feel better and more connected, but I think the intial reason was because he recognized a pain in a person that he has had, and it moved him towards an act of empathy.
Of course I do think it might be more logical it ends up being Rebecca that redeems him, or him finding out he's messing with Rebecca's life and it leads to a "villain in my own story" reprise.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Tosca Greenwood " It's George" LOL
Thank you , he’s a non-nuanced Gillian
Villian. And an uninteresting one at that
This is actually a really interesting and thoughtful analysis. Thank you for this video!
Thank you!
Incredibly well thought out, and expressed perfectly.
wow thank you!
I absolutely love this. As a graduate of USC (cough), I love love love that my partner loves this show. I love it, he loves it, it’s amazing.
This was really interesting. When I saw it pop up on my sidebar I was afraid that Nathaniel had to be defended (Since I like him). I didn't really think about why and you gave me some insight. Thanks :)
Thank you for watching!
Yeah, I live 5 minutes away from West Covina, and this show nails it
That's incredible.
Loved this.
My best friend and I were discussing this: do you thing the contrivances of this season's plot have diminished the quality of the series? I wasn't sure if yes or no, but there is a big difference between both seasons, but I can't point my finger on it, it was certainly harder for me to get into it, but when I did I enjoyed it all the same. What do you think?
The first season was definitely telling an 'easier' story, which bordered on formula: Rebecca and Paula hatch scheme to drive between Josh and Valencia, Greg gets hurt. Season 2 was doing so much more, and looking back at the complete season now, everything does build to the ending, plot-wise and thematically. It's just that seeing that in the moment was difficult, because it was all new territory
Your insight is honestly brilliant! So glad this video showed up in my suggestions. Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is such an incredible show. I'm not so patiently waiting for Season 3! haha
I know, it's gonna be a looong wait :(
This was beautiful and brilliant! Great video.
Thank you!
Great video! But just to add my two cents. I love Nathaniel! At first, I was weary, but he's such a multidimensional character. I love the guy.
This is great, love it! Crazy ex girlfriend is one of my favourite shows. It's so much more than what it appears at first glance. It shows us so many important issues, and they do it in such a natural way. Love that.
And with song and dance! Incredible stuff
What a great analysis of the diversity in the show! Consider me subbed.
Thank you!
It's so important that they did go with the stereotype though because people need to understand that it IS a stereotype when Nathaniel is introduced -- but it's a stereotype because this kind of guy is SO COMMON and it's only after he's developed as a character when we see him break out of that and see what's really there beyond his first impression.
It says something too that it took four seasons for Rebecca to break out of her stereotype and Nathaniel only two. (Men don't see his initial behavior as crazy or problematic like Rebecca's behavior clearly is.) Nathaniel is a crazy mess just like everyone -- even if he is a rich sad daddy's boy in the beginning -- especially because of that.
This was very thoughtful.
Who are you! This is so smartly said and I think would reach a lot of people that aren't currently listening to these types of conversation. I think I'd like your podcast if it's anything like this.
Thank you so much! The podcast referenced was very much like this, though trading CXG for the genre of science-fiction. It got weird toward the end, so listener discretion definitely advised: battlebeyondpodcast.com/
It's so weird to me to hear the CXG setting held up as some egalitarian Utopia when I grew up in California and went to college in southern California, so watching this show is like I'm following a camera spying on some random people in my town. So many of the characters are types I wouldn't blink at if I met in real life. The buildings and parks look like all the places I hung out pre-COVID. If this is a fantasy, a lot of people really are living it.
I love the "Prez 180" theory, and Pete Campbell is the perfect example
Mad Men being so long, I didn't realize it was happening until late, so it was quite the shock. The subtle relationship between him and Don is great -- all Pete ever wanted was his respect, and Don comes to see him as essential to the company
Bagels After Midnight Indeed. I love the scene in the last season when Don meets with Pete in California because, upon rewatch, one gets the sense that Don is actually just... having lunch with a friend? Or as near to that touchstone of polite society as Don knows how to execute? It's kind of sweet and it makes you happy for both of them, flawed ding-dongs that they are.
Bagels After Midnight Your channel is wonderful by the way. I never expected such in-depth analysis of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend but you've put into words so much of what makes the show cutting-edge. Thanks and I will stay tuned for more!
It's something Harry Crane could never pull off
This was a brilliant analysis. Woah.
Thanks!