Hey Roman I'm all in with you. When you drive, everything you need has to be ergonomically available. Getting into a screen is distracting and difficult. Any bump on the road will make you hit the wrong area of the screen. Furthermore, on a daily basis, you don't want to be programming your car.
100% agree with your dad. Wayyyyyyy to much tech in cars. Things that go through the cars computer shouldn't like heated seats, windows, hvac control. Should all be in a way manual, with the heated seats, power source to switch to seat...... No computer needed. Radio should just do radio things, and not control the whole car. We can still move forward with tech with safety, ect, but not integrate into simple things. I think if someone built a car with your dad's mentality it would sell way more, simplicity.
As a guy nearing old guy status, I’ve noticed we tend to become more distrusting of the new as we get older. I’m turning 50 soon and I catch myself sounding like my grandfather more every day.
Haha, I hear you! I think one of my main gripes is that with the migration to screens, accessing all these options is becoming much less intuitive. I’m good with learning tech, but this is well beyond just learning something new. The other major gripe I have is longevity. Everything is a throw away now, and when your electronics become the victim of obsolescence, planned or otherwise, your car is totaled, and it may or may not even be fixable. Or if your sealed transmission goes out, your car is totaled.
I'm not distrusting I just see the problems with all this tech from cost to fix to distracting drivers.It's like self driving it works till it doesn't then what? people aren't paying enough attention now driving ,and it's just making it worse.
Another issue with all this tech is that it costs a fortune to repair when it breaks or your in an accident. Not to mention the time to order the parts and complexity of the repair. A fender bender used to be just that, not it can turn into a multi thousand, multi week repair. Same with stuff like replacing a front windshield.
I wholeheartedly understand and agree with Roman regarding the loss of intuitive design components in modern vehicles. There is something to be said for having tactile controls in locations that the mind is either used to or naturally leans towards. I see nothing wrong with having an infotainment system for managing things, but it should be an auxiliary way to access or adjust these things, not the only way. Anything that *needs* to be adjustable *while* driving should have a distinctive "no-look" tactile component in easy reach so you don't have to take your eyes off the road.
Don't you miss Stubby? I absolutely love my Ram 1500 Classic for the lack of tech. 5" screen, 3 big dials for HVAC, manual seats, turn key to start, don't need anything else.
I think I side with Roman on more points. Prioritize the driving experience to keep the driver focused on the road. Make features easily toggled by physical buttons instead of passengers changing the central screen from information you may need.
Roman dont let Tommy gaslight you on some of these points, we see all the advantages because we're in the now, but later down the line when it gets hacked or the servers aren't available, consumers will be the one that are hurt and footing the bill. Also blind spot mirrors are better than sensors for reliability and cost. We need to stop relying on sensors it only drives up cost!
Comparing fly-by-wire in airplanes and cars is completely silly.... in aircraft there are redundant backup systems to prevent loss of control due to primary systems failure. Highly doubt that the auto industry will adopt that. Also the automatic braking is so stupid - I guess you didn't see that huge 9-car pileup that happened in a tunnel in the Bay area when a Tesla just decided to slam on its brakes as it entered the tunnel. Automatic braking, and other autonomous systems have no sense of self-preservation. Remember that as you cede control. Automatic highbeams suck - they never work and result in getting flashed all the time.
The extra large screen with no knobs for simple tasks and hvac has got to go! All the extra chimes for belts etc. have gotten out of hand. Also, really dislike auto start stop on ice vehicles. Probably a lot more.
2 things shying me away from a new Colorado is that cruise control is an option on the lower trim and the fact you gotta turn the lights on through the center screen that doesn’t works half the time. What’s wrong with a button or knob
i have a ZR2, and i havent had to touch the lights at all since i set them initially... it was a weird talking point EVERY media outlet hit, yeah a knob would be better but they did handle that part of the touch controls well. Kind of like how every reviewer mentioned 'measuring your fish' on the tailgate lol
Too bad that cutting costs by integrating controls into a screen is those savings don't equate to lower vehicle prices. Instead it goes towards higher profits.
I like buttons, we're supposed to be driving, not looking through menus. I like not having to take my keys out of my pocket. I like blind spot warning. I like adaptive cruise control. I don't mind the lane warning, but I turned it off as I don't need it. And I don't want lane keeping assist. All I need is to be going around a bicyclist and have my car fighting me trying to keep me in the lane. I hate when the car hits the brakes by itself or gets in my way. My 4runner slammed on its brakes because the guy in front of me hit the brakes to switch lanes. I knew what he was doing, but the car didn't and it panicked. Luckily there wasn't anyone behind me or my 4runner might have caused an accident. I have since modified the settings so it won't panic unless they're really close in front of me. I learned to drive way before all these nannies and so I don't want my car getting in my way. Either it drives or I drive, and since it's not capable of driving by itself yet, then the car needs to stay out of my way.
I love that my 17 4Runner is pretty old school. Give me a key ignition and forget the fancy auto park, wipers, talking ninny and everything else. None of it is wanted or ever used.
I have to concur with your comment regarding the size of vehicles on the road. One of the vehicles I own is a 2007 Toyota Camry. It is a extremely reliable car that is relatively easy to work on. However, I don't enjoy driving the car on the interstate highways due to the over abundance of massive trucks and SUVs. That danger is reflected in my uninsured motorist insurance rates (I live in Florida) i.e I'm more likely to be injured in a collision than if I was in my Tundra.
I'm not a fan of most of the automatic stuff. Automatic transmissions, headlights, and climate control are good. Everything else is more often annoying than helpful. Automatic braking, I simply don't believe you if you say it's not a problem.
I agree, but I’m fine with the option of ordering all those automatic safety features as long as I have the option to disable them permanently in vehicle or order a vehicle without those options added completely
As a young guy (20s), I hate most newer vehicles. The software always ages like milk, and hiding common functions behind a screen is quite aggravating.
I despise variable speed steering. How much curb rash is going to be caused by Oopsie, car turned more than expected? How many fender benders by Oopsie, I though the car would turn more? At best, BEST, it gives careless drivers an excuse. I despise do-everything screens. There is a category of controls that a driver needs access to WHILE driving. They much be able to do those things without taking their eyes off the road. AC controls. Stereo volume. Headlights. Wipers. Turn signals. Gear shifting. Cruise controls. Many driving mode selections. Laws need to mandate physical controls, or lack of laws will have blood on their hands.
Screens and touch controls detract from the driving experience. The last thing you should have to do while driving is look away from the road, and if you don't have tactile buttons then you HAVE to look at what you're touching. It's one of the most idiotic things I've seen and it makes everyone less safe.
I am keeping my 2018 Ford Focus ST-3. Thank you very much. It even comes with a manual lever for the transmission and a third pedal on the left for non-regenerative acceleration. It is also an exercise machine. If you get bored, turn off the stability control, and the thing will try to kill you if you are looking for thrills.
We recently bought a 2021 Outback.. our previous newest vehicle was a 2011 Acura RDX. A lot of things I’ve appreciated moving up 10 years in tech is a lot of the safety stuff. I feel a lot safer even though my RDX was safe for the time, things get better. Now with that said, I can NOT stand the auto start / off feature. There is no way that the wear and tear that that engine and alternator get is worth the MAYBE extra 1-5 miles in range. Just a horrible feature that should be able to be permanently, turned off.
I think its telling that despite increased, nearly ubiquitous safety features - traffic highway deaths are still going up - probably because people are f'ing around on screens trying to turn their air conditioning on.
I need a new truck and don't want all the technology. Waiting for the Toyota stout to come out in hopes they will offer a basic truck. If not, I'm going to purchase a basic older vehicle. Old school.
How about you have a program that allows you to make changes that are permanent until you enter that function again….not every time you start the car And outlaw all auto start stop function. It is a crap feature
I don’t know how it’s even legal for manufacturers to move basic things like climate control and mirror adjustments into a screen. Navigating through a screen to turn on the AC is super dangerous especially. How is that any different than texting while driving which we all know has serious consequences.
Tommy and Roman, really great discussion. I think Tommy said it best when he said it was a great framework for future discussion. I really appreciate TFL keeping the subject matter to cars and trucks while at the same time trying to keep politics out of it. Although, as Roman said, politics seems to bleed into everything these days, but you guys do a fantastic job of just sticking to the facts. With politics everywhere these days, for me, it is always great to come to TFL for great information on a topic that I love.
Roman, you are talking to a generation that did not grow up with the simplicity of car design from the past. So, he has nothing to compare todays tech to what we had in the past.
I'm an older guy. I don't like some of the new technology. I think some of it is ridiculous. Also, I certainly wish I could order car with only basic accroutrements for a cheaper choice. I'm totally with Roman on this topic.
😂 Wait until the big rigs get speed limits by government regulations. If you think they're annoying now just wait about a year. Mile backups when 1 truck is going 1/2 mph faster than the other truck and decides to pass on the highway for the next 5-10 miles 😅
@@garysarratt1 it's going to get even worse. Right now the only reason for speed limiters on trucks are the trucking companies to save fuel but now of course the government has to get involved..
How about car makers offer an entry level model of all their offerings that does not include all the tech but includes buttons and switches? I don't want a screen that controls everything.
Im really starting to hate modern LED headlights, even on low they are so bright when the car is coming at you in a curve my eyes take longer to focus again, i dont have that problem with a car coming at me with old halogen lights, same thing when the car is behind me its so bright reflecting off my mirrors that it makes it hard for my eyes to focus, again not a problem with halogen, i have a 2002 F250 with halogen lights, lights the road really well and the road signs perfect without a problem, my 2022 bronco with LED i noticed the light is so bright when it reflects off the road signs im back to im having a harder time focusing my eyes and before anyone says i need my eyes checked im a welder by trade and still have 20/20 vision at 48 years old, to me in my opinion halogen lights when done right are better and safer because its more of a natural warm light.
Agree. In fact when I drive at night I point my rear and side view mirrors down to avoid being blinded. Now, can that really be safe? I try to avoid driving at night
Fun fact: hands on the wheel used to be at a 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock position but it was changed to 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock because people kept breaking their thumbs when the airbag went off.
LOL a lot of domestic premium package cars in 2020 were still coming off the factory line with halogen bulb. Applause to them for at least putting that cheap bulb in a lenses.
Some of those things, like emergency braking for example, sounds nice to me as long as I can decide I need to turn it off and get out of Dodge for whatever reason.
There is TOO much tech in vehicles these days. Too many driver assist features as well. Even conservative companies like Toyota are implementing too many safety features. This started around 2015-2016. I'm not talking about their regular safety sense suite (some of those features are great). More so little things. As an example, when you press and hold to turn the traction control off on let's say a 2017 Rav4... you're given this warning dialog box that pops up on your info screen, covering everything, and if you dismiss it... well... it just comes back 5 seconds later. That is completely unnecessary. You actively, manually and physically have to disable traction control... we don't need a warning every 5 seconds that it's disabled. WE ARE THE ONES THAT DISABLED IT... WE KNOW!
I'm with you. Too much disturbing annoing things in new cars & trucks. I'm very into tec, but what do I basically need in a car to get it going? I like to switch off the center display because it is annoing for me. Next thing is how long these tec things with hundrets of sensors will last before the whole car lights up as a christmas tree? Update & &&& - as you said: costs, new cars cost us our lifetime ..... & with the plans to remote control all cars & trucks by the traffic control .... we're done ... - I had to lough for that mercedes lumbar part - I'm on dads side: less is more -
1) my autobraking system is more dangerous due to phantom braking than just leaving it off (2023 model year truck) 2) the more integrated our vehicles become, the more costly to repair and diagnose problems. These cars today wont be as repairable as a 20 year old equivalent 3) it is more dangerous to manipulate my touchscreen to control my headlights vs a physical button or stalk. 4) fly by wire in autos cannot be compared to fly by wire in aircraft 5) I've had my truck in the dealer now three times in the first year to diagnose problems with computer modules. That's three times as many visits as I EVER made for issues with my MT nissan from 2013. If you're NOT TFL, you're generally NOT getting a new car every 3 months. This kid is highly smug and dismissive because he probably hasn't had to think of a car as a 10 year investment.
The parking sensors, lane assist sensors are VERY annoying. I turn them all off if I can. Everything on the touch screen is terrible. A screen will go out in time and then what do you do? Especially when the car is over 10 years old?
People in their 70's and 80's are wrecking their cars right and left in Japan. I don't believe their age is sole reason. Operation of shifter going from conventional to dial or buttons actually giving elderlies difficult times I think 🙁
I am in agreement with your father, he is right! I feel that the younger generation does not care anymore about wanting things simple which is easier for everyone and yet the younger generation does not know how to fix a vehicle they are forced to bring it to the shop and pay threw the roof $$$ which does not make sense to normal, person. I feel like we are going into slavery. And government-owned if we disagree they will stick individual who are in wheelchairs back into the nursing home. Sincerely! R.S.V.
Hate adaptive cruise control. On my daily commute the road has a gentle bend to the right, theres a left turn lane is in the middle of that curve. If theres a car stopped to turn the brakes slam on. I can turn it off but it doesnt stay off.
Some interesting points guys. I find the auto wipers don’t work well in snow. I hope parking sensors always have a button to easily turn it off on all cars for parking(not buried in a menu). Subscription services for things like remote start from the key fob(Toyota) is a definite problem for me. I like most of the tech as long as it’s not intrusive.
The problem with a touchscreen is that roads are not smooth. Half the time I hit a bump in the road when I am reaching for the touchscreen and end up hitting the wrong thing. Car manufacturers call these touchscreen controls intuitive but to who? Computer programmers or people that work with technology everyday might find this technology easy to use but I don't. Even my phone software is constantly trying to force me to link all my apps together, like contacts, calendar, etc, and if I refuse it won't let me use those apps. I am not a teenager and I don't use social media so I don't want or need all my apps linked together. The cube vans at work require me to pull the parking break so hard it makes me think I'm going to break it just to unlock the touchscreen to change the settings. I think the lane keep assist or lane depare warning technology is useless because any driver that passed their road test should know how to stay in their lane. The steering wheel is the lane keep assist and the brake is all the collision avoidance technology a qualified driver should need. I didn't want cylinder deactivation (Displacement On Demand) technology so I bought a 2016 Canyon. I don't like the new technology that allows car manufacturers to access and change the engine and transmission settings of new vehicles without first asking for and receiving permission from the vehicle owner. With occupancy alert, if you need technology to remind you not to forget your kid or your bag, then you need to get your head out of the clouds and pay attention to your surroundings. So these car manufacturers want us to trust the technology they create and put in our vehicles. So we don't need to think for ourselves and can just sit back, stare at screens, and let computers make all our decisions. Wait that sounds familiar, where have I heard that before....where....oh right, that is the plot of the WALL-E movie. What ever happened to personal accountability. Now people would rather let computers and corporations make all their decisions. I prefer to think for myself, make my own decisions and take responsibility for my own actions. I will not trust the technology that car manufacturers put in vehicles because one day they may charge you a start up fee every time you start your car or charge you a roaming fee if you drive more than a predetermined distance. In the winter they can charge you to use the heater in your car and in the summer you might receive a bill for every time you use your car's air conditioning. Not possible you say, why not if they have unrestricted access to your vehicle's computer. Profit is all that corporations care about so anything is possible when you willingly give them full access to every part of your life. When you become dependent on their technology they own you.
I agree that the Tesla yoke is stupid, other impacts beyond not being able to hand over hand steer (when required) it also reduces impact area in a collision, and introduces four "points" of higher pressure, It is just a cost cutting move disguised as "isn't this cool". Same for many Tesla "design" enhancements.
Talking about blindspot, I think every car should come with an integrated convex mirror in the main mirror, even if it is small, what you would see by looking over your shoulder you will see it in the convex mirror and it you can even use it to see the sidewalk when parallel parking, I noticed in the vehicule i drove that had those that you start seeing the car beside you before you loose them in the convex mirror
Roman gets it and hits every point home precisely. Most of this crap is cost cutting made to look like progress. And all the fanboys will utter "adapt" and "progress" without digging into what makes something better or worse in actual measurable metrics
Ford did say they focus-grouped the new Mustang and the youngins want screens everywhere. I can get over most new flashy features. But, I can’t forgive cars that require a login - looking at you Audi.
Not all innovation means "better", companies always have to come up with something new to make you buy a new product... Remember "Cortana"?... me neither.
Just like every other cranky old man, just like me. Age does also bring learned knowledge; a very good commodity that maybe more people should listen too. Listening to Roman talk about how old he is makes me feel like I have a foot in the grave and ready for one of those electric scooters at 70.😄😄😄. Nice vid guys.
lol just sayin.. my issue is cruise control.. its sorta a study how to engage it. then the figures on the dash.. is which part engaged? adaptive or assist on?? looking looking looking .. ok its not clear to me whats whats sometimes im guessing more than i should.
Regarding Seat belts and ABS, there is actual hard evidence that these technologies do save lives. However, there is no such proof regarding things like lane assist, speed limit warnings, even blind spot monitoring. Likewise there needs to be research about how dangerous/safe screen controls are compared to physical controls.
Seems like a lot of modern technology is going to automate away any ability of the driver to actually drive the vehicle, either as a feature or a byproduct. If this is inevitable, then I'd wish we'd just get there already. I either want to drive or ride, not operate a computer and partially drive while the machine attempts to save me from the world. Give me the simplest, reliable driving experience or a living room on wheels, not a complicated in between mess. And it's not just the auto industry that beta tests on customers. This seems to be a growing trend to save on R&D. Why budget for that when early adopters will pay top dollar to do it for you?
Another comment is, touch screens will never be as easy to use as a tactile button, you either use the button or not, a screen you can move in unexpected ways as a car bounces along. And this is unavoidable as roads are not perfectly smooth.
Some subscriptions legitimate. If a carmaker invests in R&D and improves suspension and handling, previous model buyers don't have the right to automatically get an upgrade. Why should software be an exception? But holding features that are already built-in hostage for more money - like heated seats - is sheer shortsighted stupidity.
Ultimately technology is making people lazy and stupid for convivence, for example how many people can actually say they can navigate somewhere using a map vs there phone? People need to stop depending on technology, I remember a story on the news when the Tom tom came out some idiot drove in the lake because he said that's where it took me to get to my destination lol I personally would like to have less tech in the car to keep the cost down for the customer but NHTSA is making all this crap standard because its supposedly more safe.
I have always been pretty against the nannies and aggressive assistance in cars. Control of the couple thousand pound battering ram should be in the hands of a human being. That human should be alert, and proficient in it's control. They should have a basic understanding of the physics at play when a very heavy object is moving quickly.... I don't like removing that responsibility from the driver in any capacity. We moved away from having the car protect ~IF~ an accident occurs, to building vehicles around ~WHEN~ an accident occurs and we have very much sacrificed visibility and driver control to achieve this 'safety' and we have people with no respect for the responsibility of driving. They think the nannies will always be there to make up for their shortcomings. I have been using around with computers for a good 30-35 years now and I would not want to trust my life to a computer, especially with no manual override.
Not just buttons, but knobs. I have a JL Wrangler and my number one annoyance with it is the temperature controls being buttons. The fan is a knob, the volume is a knob, and the radio tune is a knob, so why couldn't they have put the temperature controls with a knob as well? I prefer the buttons to it being touch screen controlled, but knobs are better than buttons for things like that.
I have a 2000 Jeep Cherokee sport 4x4 with a 4 inch lift and it’s great but rides very rough. What can I do to make it more comfortable to ride on the street. I don’t go off road. Thanks for the help.
OEM are testing new tech on us older folks but building for the kids for the future. Those kids using iPads as toddlers won’t have any issue using that large center screen!
Before we condemn steer by wire and push button doors because they might break at some point can we all just remember that mechanical door handles and steering parts can also fail. I remember plenty of cars from my younger broker days, some owned by me and some owned by friends, that you had to either enter from passenger side or had some creative fixes done to them. I’m fifty years old and can confidently say the past was never what it used to be :)
Hey Roman
I'm all in with you. When you drive, everything you need has to be ergonomically available. Getting into a screen is distracting and difficult. Any bump on the road will make you hit the wrong area of the screen. Furthermore, on a daily basis, you don't want to be programming your car.
100% agree with your dad. Wayyyyyyy to much tech in cars. Things that go through the cars computer shouldn't like heated seats, windows, hvac control. Should all be in a way manual, with the heated seats, power source to switch to seat...... No computer needed. Radio should just do radio things, and not control the whole car. We can still move forward with tech with safety, ect, but not integrate into simple things. I think if someone built a car with your dad's mentality it would sell way more, simplicity.
As a guy nearing old guy status, I’ve noticed we tend to become more distrusting of the new as we get older. I’m turning 50 soon and I catch myself sounding like my grandfather more every day.
You ever consider that might be a good thing?
@@fritty9927 I view it as a mixed bag
@@donschiffer7400 😅
Haha, I hear you! I think one of my main gripes is that with the migration to screens, accessing all these options is becoming much less intuitive. I’m good with learning tech, but this is well beyond just learning something new. The other major gripe I have is longevity. Everything is a throw away now, and when your electronics become the victim of obsolescence, planned or otherwise, your car is totaled, and it may or may not even be fixable. Or if your sealed transmission goes out, your car is totaled.
I'm not distrusting I just see the problems with all this tech from cost to fix to distracting drivers.It's like self driving it works till it doesn't then what? people aren't paying enough attention now driving ,and it's just making it worse.
Another issue with all this tech is that it costs a fortune to repair when it breaks or your in an accident. Not to mention the time to order the parts and complexity of the repair.
A fender bender used to be just that, not it can turn into a multi thousand, multi week repair. Same with stuff like replacing a front windshield.
I must be in the grumpy old man camp, I agree with Roman.
Daddy won this fight!!
Auto start/stop should head to the dustbin.
I wholeheartedly understand and agree with Roman regarding the loss of intuitive design components in modern vehicles. There is something to be said for having tactile controls in locations that the mind is either used to or naturally leans towards. I see nothing wrong with having an infotainment system for managing things, but it should be an auxiliary way to access or adjust these things, not the only way. Anything that *needs* to be adjustable *while* driving should have a distinctive "no-look" tactile component in easy reach so you don't have to take your eyes off the road.
Don't you miss Stubby? I absolutely love my Ram 1500 Classic for the lack of tech. 5" screen, 3 big dials for HVAC, manual seats, turn key to start, don't need anything else.
I think I side with Roman on more points. Prioritize the driving experience to keep the driver focused on the road. Make features easily toggled by physical buttons instead of passengers changing the central screen from information you may need.
Roman dont let Tommy gaslight you on some of these points, we see all the advantages because we're in the now, but later down the line when it gets hacked or the servers aren't available, consumers will be the one that are hurt and footing the bill. Also blind spot mirrors are better than sensors for reliability and cost. We need to stop relying on sensors it only drives up cost!
Elimination of physical buttons and knobs is the worst!
Comparing fly-by-wire in airplanes and cars is completely silly.... in aircraft there are redundant backup systems to prevent loss of control due to primary systems failure. Highly doubt that the auto industry will adopt that. Also the automatic braking is so stupid - I guess you didn't see that huge 9-car pileup that happened in a tunnel in the Bay area when a Tesla just decided to slam on its brakes as it entered the tunnel. Automatic braking, and other autonomous systems have no sense of self-preservation. Remember that as you cede control. Automatic highbeams suck - they never work and result in getting flashed all the time.
“Never work”? I know you don’t believe that, you’re just lying.
Double thumbs down to the engineers that put the headlight switch on the screen of the Canyon.
Wow!
The extra large screen with no knobs for simple tasks and hvac has got to go! All the extra chimes for belts etc. have gotten out of hand. Also, really dislike auto start stop on ice vehicles. Probably a lot more.
2 things shying me away from a new Colorado is that cruise control is an option on the lower trim and the fact you gotta turn the lights on through the center screen that doesn’t works half the time. What’s wrong with a button or knob
i have a ZR2, and i havent had to touch the lights at all since i set them initially... it was a weird talking point EVERY media outlet hit, yeah a knob would be better but they did handle that part of the touch controls well. Kind of like how every reviewer mentioned 'measuring your fish' on the tailgate lol
I really like my radio volume knobs on my dodge
My test is, does this change make it easy for me and others OR is it just making it easier & cheaper for the manufacturer.
Too bad that cutting costs by integrating controls into a screen is those savings don't equate to lower vehicle prices. Instead it goes towards higher profits.
I like buttons, we're supposed to be driving, not looking through menus.
I like not having to take my keys out of my pocket.
I like blind spot warning.
I like adaptive cruise control.
I don't mind the lane warning, but I turned it off as I don't need it. And I don't want lane keeping assist. All I need is to be going around a bicyclist and have my car fighting me trying to keep me in the lane.
I hate when the car hits the brakes by itself or gets in my way. My 4runner slammed on its brakes because the guy in front of me hit the brakes to switch lanes. I knew what he was doing, but the car didn't and it panicked. Luckily there wasn't anyone behind me or my 4runner might have caused an accident. I have since modified the settings so it won't panic unless they're really close in front of me.
I learned to drive way before all these nannies and so I don't want my car getting in my way. Either it drives or I drive, and since it's not capable of driving by itself yet, then the car needs to stay out of my way.
OEM put all these options on cars cause it's more that breaks and another more visits to the dealer and pay those crazy shop rates
I love that my 17 4Runner is pretty old school.
Give me a key ignition and forget the fancy auto park, wipers, talking ninny and everything else. None of it is wanted or ever used.
I have to concur with your comment regarding the size of vehicles on the road. One of the vehicles I own is a 2007 Toyota Camry. It is a extremely reliable car that is relatively easy to work on. However, I don't enjoy driving the car on the interstate highways due to the over abundance of massive trucks and SUVs. That danger is reflected in my uninsured motorist insurance rates (I live in Florida) i.e I'm more likely to be injured in a collision than if I was in my Tundra.
I am 54 years old. I am on team Daddy. Stop crossing your arms, and thank you for not having Coleman Cups. LOL
I'm not a fan of most of the automatic stuff. Automatic transmissions, headlights, and climate control are good. Everything else is more often annoying than helpful. Automatic braking, I simply don't believe you if you say it's not a problem.
I agree, but I’m fine with the option of ordering all those automatic safety features as long as I have the option to disable them permanently in vehicle or order a vehicle without those options added completely
As a young guy (20s), I hate most newer vehicles. The software always ages like milk, and hiding common functions behind a screen is quite aggravating.
Active Fuel Management.......
I never understood how using a cell phone is more dangerous than manipulating a car screen.
My Mazda CX5 came with the speedometer reading in kilometres and I had to go to TH-cam to find out how to switch it over to MPH.
I despise variable speed steering. How much curb rash is going to be caused by Oopsie, car turned more than expected? How many fender benders by Oopsie, I though the car would turn more? At best, BEST, it gives careless drivers an excuse.
I despise do-everything screens. There is a category of controls that a driver needs access to WHILE driving. They much be able to do those things without taking their eyes off the road. AC controls. Stereo volume. Headlights. Wipers. Turn signals. Gear shifting. Cruise controls. Many driving mode selections. Laws need to mandate physical controls, or lack of laws will have blood on their hands.
Screens and touch controls detract from the driving experience. The last thing you should have to do while driving is look away from the road, and if you don't have tactile buttons then you HAVE to look at what you're touching. It's one of the most idiotic things I've seen and it makes everyone less safe.
I am keeping my 2018 Ford Focus ST-3. Thank you very much. It even comes with a manual lever for the transmission and a third pedal on the left for non-regenerative acceleration. It is also an exercise machine. If you get bored, turn off the stability control, and the thing will try to kill you if you are looking for thrills.
We recently bought a 2021 Outback.. our previous newest vehicle was a 2011 Acura RDX. A lot of things I’ve appreciated moving up 10 years in tech is a lot of the safety stuff. I feel a lot safer even though my RDX was safe for the time, things get better.
Now with that said, I can NOT stand the auto start / off feature. There is no way that the wear and tear that that engine and alternator get is worth the MAYBE extra 1-5 miles in range. Just a horrible feature that should be able to be permanently, turned off.
Not just becoming Guinea pigs, but paying a premium to be the tester. Used to be the manufacture would pay the testers.
I 1,000000000000000 % agree with Roman, sometimes less is more, GIVE ME BUTTONS……PLEASE, great topics guys
When that master screen gets lazy and dies what will that cost me? Will that stop me from traveling forward,u bet your ass
Great topic and discussion guys, much appreciated.
Carmakers are begging for big brother to step in. everyone loses when that happens.
I think its telling that despite increased, nearly ubiquitous safety features - traffic highway deaths are still going up - probably because people are f'ing around on screens trying to turn their air conditioning on.
I need a new truck and don't want all the technology. Waiting for the Toyota stout to come out in hopes they will offer a basic truck. If not, I'm going to purchase a basic older vehicle. Old school.
Apple & car = deal breaker.
How about you have a program that allows you to make changes that are permanent until you enter that function again….not every time you start the car And outlaw all auto start stop function. It is a crap feature
I don’t know how it’s even legal for manufacturers to move basic things like climate control and mirror adjustments into a screen. Navigating through a screen to turn on the AC is super dangerous especially. How is that any different than texting while driving which we all know has serious consequences.
Tommy and Roman, really great discussion. I think Tommy said it best when he said it was a great framework for future discussion. I really appreciate TFL keeping the subject matter to cars and trucks while at the same time trying to keep politics out of it. Although, as Roman said, politics seems to bleed into everything these days, but you guys do a fantastic job of just sticking to the facts. With politics everywhere these days, for me, it is always great to come to TFL for great information on a topic that I love.
I don't think it's "grumpy old man" syndrome for a lot of these issues, the iPhone as well. I still miss the keyboard on my Samsung Stratosphere.
Roman, you are talking to a generation that did not grow up with the simplicity of car design from the past.
So, he has nothing to compare todays tech to what we had in the past.
I'm an older guy. I don't like some of the new technology. I think some of it is ridiculous. Also, I certainly wish I could order car with only basic accroutrements for a cheaper choice. I'm totally with Roman on this topic.
😂 Wait until the big rigs get speed limits by government regulations. If you think they're annoying now just wait about a year. Mile backups when 1 truck is going 1/2 mph faster than the other truck and decides to pass on the highway for the next 5-10 miles 😅
They’ve been doing that for years. They’ve taken over I-85.
@@garysarratt1 it's going to get even worse. Right now the only reason for speed limiters on trucks are the trucking companies to save fuel but now of course the government has to get involved..
How about car makers offer an entry level model of all their offerings that does not include all the tech but includes buttons and switches? I don't want a screen that controls everything.
Yes!
Would cost too much in design/production/gov compliance and not enough would sell to make it worth it.
@@nothingtoseaheardammithow many they could sell is an un-answered question.
Nobody would buy the teched-out ones!🤣
@@nothingtoseaheardammit "gov compliance" = all that surveillance crap is required apparently.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support - we deeply appreciate it!
my model 3 center screen with all of its controls is unsafe and thus foolish.. how did the govt ever approve this?
Im really starting to hate modern LED headlights, even on low they are so bright when the car is coming at you in a curve my eyes take longer to focus again, i dont have that problem with a car coming at me with old halogen lights, same thing when the car is behind me its so bright reflecting off my mirrors that it makes it hard for my eyes to focus, again not a problem with halogen, i have a 2002 F250 with halogen lights, lights the road really well and the road signs perfect without a problem, my 2022 bronco with LED i noticed the light is so bright when it reflects off the road signs im back to im having a harder time focusing my eyes and before anyone says i need my eyes checked im a welder by trade and still have 20/20 vision at 48 years old, to me in my opinion halogen lights when done right are better and safer because its more of a natural warm light.
Agree. In fact when I drive at night I point my rear and side view mirrors down to avoid being blinded. Now, can that really be safe? I try to avoid driving at night
Fun fact: hands on the wheel used to be at a 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock position but it was changed to 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock because people kept breaking their thumbs when the airbag went off.
LOL a lot of domestic premium package cars in 2020 were still coming off the factory line with halogen bulb. Applause to them for at least putting that cheap bulb in a lenses.
WE NEED THE GRUMPY OLD MAN PACKAGES! I’m not old, but I agree with the things you don’t like.
Some of those things, like emergency braking for example, sounds nice to me as long as I can decide I need to turn it off and get out of Dodge for whatever reason.
There is TOO much tech in vehicles these days. Too many driver assist features as well. Even conservative companies like Toyota are implementing too many safety features. This started around 2015-2016. I'm not talking about their regular safety sense suite (some of those features are great). More so little things. As an example, when you press and hold to turn the traction control off on let's say a 2017 Rav4... you're given this warning dialog box that pops up on your info screen, covering everything, and if you dismiss it... well... it just comes back 5 seconds later. That is completely unnecessary. You actively, manually and physically have to disable traction control... we don't need a warning every 5 seconds that it's disabled. WE ARE THE ONES THAT DISABLED IT... WE KNOW!
I'm with you. Too much disturbing annoing things in new cars & trucks. I'm very into tec, but what do I basically need in a car to get it going? I like to switch off the center display because it is annoing for me. Next thing is how long these tec things with hundrets of sensors will last before the whole car lights up as a christmas tree? Update & &&& - as you said: costs, new cars cost us our lifetime ..... & with the plans to remote control all cars & trucks by the traffic control .... we're done ... - I had to lough for that mercedes lumbar part - I'm on dads side: less is more -
1) my autobraking system is more dangerous due to phantom braking than just leaving it off (2023 model year truck)
2) the more integrated our vehicles become, the more costly to repair and diagnose problems. These cars today wont be as repairable as a 20 year old equivalent
3) it is more dangerous to manipulate my touchscreen to control my headlights vs a physical button or stalk.
4) fly by wire in autos cannot be compared to fly by wire in aircraft
5) I've had my truck in the dealer now three times in the first year to diagnose problems with computer modules. That's three times as many visits as I EVER made for issues with my MT nissan from 2013.
If you're NOT TFL, you're generally NOT getting a new car every 3 months. This kid is highly smug and dismissive because he probably hasn't had to think of a car as a 10 year investment.
The parking sensors, lane assist sensors are VERY annoying. I turn them all off if I can. Everything on the touch screen is terrible. A screen will go out in time and then what do you do? Especially when the car is over 10 years old?
People in their 70's and 80's are wrecking their cars right and left in Japan. I don't believe their age is sole reason. Operation of shifter going from conventional to dial or buttons actually giving elderlies difficult times I think 🙁
Daddy Won This, I listen to Daddy, Not Son on this fight.
I am in agreement with your father, he is right!
I feel that the younger generation does not care anymore about wanting things simple which is easier for everyone and yet the younger generation does not know how to fix a vehicle they are forced to bring it to the shop and pay threw the roof $$$ which does not make sense to normal, person.
I feel like we are going into slavery.
And government-owned if we disagree they will stick individual who are in wheelchairs back into the nursing home.
Sincerely!
R.S.V.
To open glove box in a Tesla you have to find it on the display
Sure he's a cranky old man, but he's the customer, more likely than the young....
Completely disagree on the phone access to cars... worst idea ever. Literally making your car 100%hackable
Hate adaptive cruise control. On my daily commute the road has a gentle bend to the right, theres a left turn lane is in the middle of that curve. If theres a car stopped to turn the brakes slam on. I can turn it off but it doesnt stay off.
As always Roman is right. Nathan is the only one who has ever been right opposing Roman. Imho.
Some interesting points guys.
I find the auto wipers don’t work well in snow.
I hope parking sensors always have a button to easily turn it off on all cars for parking(not buried in a menu).
Subscription services for things like remote start from the key fob(Toyota) is a definite problem for me.
I like most of the tech as long as it’s not intrusive.
The problem with a touchscreen is that roads are not smooth. Half the time I hit a bump in the road when I am reaching for the touchscreen and end up hitting the wrong thing. Car manufacturers call these touchscreen controls intuitive but to who? Computer programmers or people that work with technology everyday might find this technology easy to use but I don't. Even my phone software is constantly trying to force me to link all my apps together, like contacts, calendar, etc, and if I refuse it won't let me use those apps. I am not a teenager and I don't use social media so I don't want or need all my apps linked together. The cube vans at work require me to pull the parking break so hard it makes me think I'm going to break it just to unlock the touchscreen to change the settings. I think the lane keep assist or lane depare warning technology is useless because any driver that passed their road test should know how to stay in their lane. The steering wheel is the lane keep assist and the brake is all the collision avoidance technology a qualified driver should need. I didn't want cylinder deactivation (Displacement On Demand) technology so I bought a 2016 Canyon. I don't like the new technology that allows car manufacturers to access and change the engine and transmission settings of new vehicles without first asking for and receiving permission from the vehicle owner. With occupancy alert, if you need technology to remind you not to forget your kid or your bag, then you need to get your head out of the clouds and pay attention to your surroundings. So these car manufacturers want us to trust the technology they create and put in our vehicles. So we don't need to think for ourselves and can just sit back, stare at screens, and let computers make all our decisions. Wait that sounds familiar, where have I heard that before....where....oh right, that is the plot of the WALL-E movie. What ever happened to personal accountability. Now people would rather let computers and corporations make all their decisions. I prefer to think for myself, make my own decisions and take responsibility for my own actions. I will not trust the technology that car manufacturers put in vehicles because one day they may charge you a start up fee every time you start your car or charge you a roaming fee if you drive more than a predetermined distance. In the winter they can charge you to use the heater in your car and in the summer you might receive a bill for every time you use your car's air conditioning. Not possible you say, why not if they have unrestricted access to your vehicle's computer. Profit is all that corporations care about so anything is possible when you willingly give them full access to every part of your life. When you become dependent on their technology they own you.
I agree that the Tesla yoke is stupid, other impacts beyond not being able to hand over hand steer (when required) it also reduces impact area in a collision, and introduces four "points" of higher pressure, It is just a cost cutting move disguised as "isn't this cool". Same for many Tesla "design" enhancements.
My 03 Buick, had buttons and keys that did seat mirrors radio preset's etc
Talking about blindspot,
I think every car should come with an integrated convex mirror in the main mirror, even if it is small, what you would see by looking over your shoulder you will see it in the convex mirror and it you can even use it to see the sidewalk when parallel parking,
I noticed in the vehicule i drove that had those that you start seeing the car beside you before you loose them in the convex mirror
Monthly subscriptions for some of these features to work are big issue for me.
Roman gets it and hits every point home precisely. Most of this crap is cost cutting made to look like progress. And all the fanboys will utter "adapt" and "progress" without digging into what makes something better or worse in actual measurable metrics
Ford did say they focus-grouped the new Mustang and the youngins want screens everywhere.
I can get over most new flashy features. But, I can’t forgive cars that require a login - looking at you Audi.
The Merc system only accepts product (hardware) performance responsibility, not operational performance liability acceptance, as assumed at level 3.
Airbag vehicles. The hand position is 4 and 8.
Where Roman wants his hands may knock him out.
Not all innovation means "better", companies always have to come up with something new to make you buy a new product... Remember "Cortana"?... me neither.
Just like every other cranky old man, just like me. Age does also bring learned knowledge; a very good commodity that maybe more people should listen too. Listening to Roman talk about how old he is makes me feel like I have a foot in the grave and ready for one of those electric scooters at 70.😄😄😄. Nice vid guys.
Well, is there anything in the world that they won't screw up ?
lol just sayin.. my issue is cruise control.. its sorta a study how to engage it. then the figures on the dash.. is which part engaged? adaptive or assist on?? looking looking looking .. ok
its not clear to me whats whats sometimes im guessing more than i should.
At least that's one that's usually easy once you figure it out. It's not that it's poorly designed, just different from each manufacturer.
Regarding Seat belts and ABS, there is actual hard evidence that these technologies do save lives. However, there is no such proof regarding things like lane assist, speed limit warnings, even blind spot monitoring. Likewise there needs to be research about how dangerous/safe screen controls are compared to physical controls.
Much love Roman. And Tommy thank you so much for years of wonderful videos.
I don’t need a car that’s a nanny….
Roman is a cranky old man like me.
Seems like a lot of modern technology is going to automate away any ability of the driver to actually drive the vehicle, either as a feature or a byproduct. If this is inevitable, then I'd wish we'd just get there already. I either want to drive or ride, not operate a computer and partially drive while the machine attempts to save me from the world. Give me the simplest, reliable driving experience or a living room on wheels, not a complicated in between mess.
And it's not just the auto industry that beta tests on customers. This seems to be a growing trend to save on R&D. Why budget for that when early adopters will pay top dollar to do it for you?
Another comment is, touch screens will never be as easy to use as a tactile button, you either use the button or not, a screen you can move in unexpected ways as a car bounces along. And this is unavoidable as roads are not perfectly smooth.
Change for change's sake is stupid, like the Start Button or the Yoke & may be safety issues....
Some subscriptions legitimate. If a carmaker invests in R&D and improves suspension and handling, previous model buyers don't have the right to automatically get an upgrade. Why should software be an exception? But holding features that are already built-in hostage for more money - like heated seats - is sheer shortsighted stupidity.
1,000 thumbs down to touch screens.
Ultimately technology is making people lazy and stupid for convivence, for example how many people can actually say they can navigate somewhere using a map vs there phone? People need to stop depending on technology, I remember a story on the news when the Tom tom came out some idiot drove in the lake because he said that's where it took me to get to my destination lol I personally would like to have less tech in the car to keep the cost down for the customer but NHTSA is making all this crap standard because its supposedly more safe.
I have always been pretty against the nannies and aggressive assistance in cars. Control of the couple thousand pound battering ram should be in the hands of a human being. That human should be alert, and proficient in it's control. They should have a basic understanding of the physics at play when a very heavy object is moving quickly.... I don't like removing that responsibility from the driver in any capacity. We moved away from having the car protect ~IF~ an accident occurs, to building vehicles around ~WHEN~ an accident occurs and we have very much sacrificed visibility and driver control to achieve this 'safety' and we have people with no respect for the responsibility of driving. They think the nannies will always be there to make up for their shortcomings. I have been using around with computers for a good 30-35 years now and I would not want to trust my life to a computer, especially with no manual override.
I remember when I used to work in computers we had a saying. "To err is human, it takes a computer to really f*ck things up."
Really good chat. Good points by both commentators
Roman is spot on.
Not just buttons, but knobs. I have a JL Wrangler and my number one annoyance with it is the temperature controls being buttons. The fan is a knob, the volume is a knob, and the radio tune is a knob, so why couldn't they have put the temperature controls with a knob as well? I prefer the buttons to it being touch screen controlled, but knobs are better than buttons for things like that.
How often are you actually changing the temp 🤔 and more then 3 degrees
We live in a police state at this point.
I have a 2000 Jeep Cherokee sport 4x4 with a 4 inch lift and it’s great but rides very rough. What can I do to make it more comfortable to ride on the street. I don’t go off road. Thanks for the help.
Take the lift off and get road tires
OEM are testing new tech on us older folks but building for the kids for the future. Those kids using iPads as toddlers won’t have any issue using that large center screen!
But it still takes their concentration off the road while they're going 70 MPH. Those damn things should be illegal.
The automatic braking in my car works perfectly almost all of the time. In other words, the car is trying to kill me.
Before we condemn steer by wire and push button doors because they might break at some point can we all just remember that mechanical door handles and steering parts can also fail. I remember plenty of cars from my younger broker days, some owned by me and some owned by friends, that you had to either enter from passenger side or had some creative fixes done to them. I’m fifty years old and can confidently say the past was never what it used to be :)
Well, at least you could come up with those creative fixes. with the older tech.