Great, I love the absetzen, we were actually just working on it when you uploaded this video. I will say a point on the execution, and this becomes very important to success in freeplay: you must wind your strong up onto their weak such that you pivot their wrist back, much like with the mutieren (specifically when they are in the left upper hengen) or when you do the Zornhau. It is really important that you get your strong onto their blade far enough onto their weak (realistically probably somewhere in the mid of their blade, just not on their strong) and do this before you thrust, not at the end otherwise you will both just thrust your guards together. Being able to lever their blade back at least a bit is vital to establishing this technique as a threat. You can see this in the examples you give, where sometimes you are thrusting, and then you wind afterwards, and some where you get the strong into position earlier and it pivots the opponent's Messer back.
Interesting thoughts about blind fencing and doing absetzen as a single time technique. I've seldom thought about it in those terms, tending towards reclaiming the vor when an opponent presses forward in the bind, but it's very similar in principle to schielhau in longsword fencing, which I almost always use in this manner after baiting an attack.
Nice! I think retaking the initiative in a bind would just be considered a regular winding, but that mostly comes from my view that the second quarter of Lecküchner's Haupstücke teach solutions to common problems encountered in fencing. In this case, that problem would be an opponent having a fast comitted attack in preparation. :)
Very nice breakdown. It's also particularly interesting to me, as what you say about Leckuechner's advice seems in contrast to what is proposed in HS3227a, where Absetczen is specifically connected to the guards with the point laid on the ground, such as Schranckhute or Pforte (aka Pflug in HS3227a). I also experimented with it using a messer, as HS3227a is adamant that messer works just like the sword, and Abesetczen actually worked decently from point-downward guards for me. But I am nowhere near your proficiency with the messer and also lack very competent one-handed sword sparring partners, so this may be an artefact of my training environment. Thoughts?
Thanks! I'd be curious in that case if the HS32227a has the same mechanics for Absetzen as RDL and Lecküchner. Ultimately, Pastey and Stier work well enough for Absetzen, just not optimal. The directional changes involved with them makes the two-part single-time action more difficult. I think this is more of an issue with messer than with longsword, for two reasons: with messer we have only one hand, meaning pressure and leverage must be spot on or things won't work well at all. For this reason, there's also the tendency of messers to travel upwards in the bind, at least more so than with longsword. This means that you have to compensate for that when trying to accurately land a thrust. That all means that anything that complicates the movement, such as going up sideways to cover, continuing to move directly upwards after and forward with the point (Absetzen from Pastey), will make it harder to aim the point well. In short Pastey and Stier work, but they won't work as well as Eber, because from position you'll simply have a less complicated movement to make.
@@VirtualFechtschule That's very interesting. Now, having read your comment, it downed on me that it likely is mechanical thing. Abesetczen in HS3227a does not hit in itself, it only sets the point at an opening while removing the threat made by the opponent. After all, the corresponing Zettel says: "Von payden seyten trif allemal wiltu schreiten", suggesting that it is the step that makes the hit. Moreover, the only example of Abesetczen's application given in prose comes from the "Other masters" section. There, Abesetczen is delivered from Schranckhute to intercept the opponent's attack, but then the hit (by riposte in this case) is a strike (slag) to the foot (sic!) "or wherever he may hit him best". I have just rewatched some of my video documentation on Abesetczen used in sparring and it actually tends to have percussive component in the initial bind.
Great video. I noticed however that every one of your demonstrated overhand absetzen included a Winding, and I'm not convinced that's necessary. Getting that low bind into a long thrust without winding high might be something you want to experiment with.
Have you tried this with one-handers, or just with longsword? The reason I'm asking is because I find that, the messer blade being shorter and the coach's hand going upwards, the weapon just goes up to a high hengen automatically. Diffusing the impact on the wrist might play a role for me as well. Whenever the coach keeps their thrust low, I can (and should) definitely stick to a low hengen, but whenever I get a bit more resistance, I go up with their messer. It works fine as far as I can tell. :D
I think absetz is parry-riposte in the first place, doing it as a single time counter is just speeding up the action where the parry starts to bleed into the thrust in opposition, for training purposes I don't like fixating on the single-time thrust as an interpretation because it's something you can easily screw up and double with if both fencers are just racing to land their thrust first. Fundamentally I think of the action as cover -> thrust whereas ansetzen is the opposite, thrusting to an opening and then covering their sword second. In foil you'd start in sixte at your right side, a lot like pflug only slightly higher, and do a simple lateral motion to parry in quarte on your inside (again similar to left pflug) and then counter thrust. The only significant difference in how I do parry in quarte -> riposte compared to absetzen is that with arming swords and messers you're more likely to stay in opposition, since foils are so light that you can finish the thrust by simply coming back to the centre and extending instead of seeking to gain favourable blade presence with an overbind.
Thanks, this is a pretty good explanation. Absetzen as I show it here is neither a single time counter, nor a parry-riposte action, I think. It has elements of both. Central to it is indeed the two part action that I talk about when I mention the launching order: first we cover, then we thrust. like you say, this can't be messed up, otherwise it will be a double. It definitely has the two-part action that we associate with parry-riposte. But Absetzen is also an Indes action, meaning that this action is completed roughly at the same time as the attack it counters is completed. That means we have to do two actions in the time our opponent does one. There's a few things that I think coïncide to make that work: 1. the opponent needs to close the distance, meaning their movement will take more time than ours. 2. We only need to offset the opponent's attack, meaning the covering motion can remain relatively small. 3. We do Absetzen when we anticipate the opponent's attack, meaning we don't have to do any decision making before starting to move. All in all, these things allow this to be an Indes action, meaning that it also has elements of a single time counter.
![[Live] : ONE FIGHT NIGHT 25 วันนี้!! "อเล็กซิส vs รีเกียน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/suVr9a6BM2g/mqdefault.jpg)
Beautiful work. And I really like the retreating action.
Thank you! :D
Great, I love the absetzen, we were actually just working on it when you uploaded this video. I will say a point on the execution, and this becomes very important to success in freeplay: you must wind your strong up onto their weak such that you pivot their wrist back, much like with the mutieren (specifically when they are in the left upper hengen) or when you do the Zornhau.
It is really important that you get your strong onto their blade far enough onto their weak (realistically probably somewhere in the mid of their blade, just not on their strong) and do this before you thrust, not at the end otherwise you will both just thrust your guards together. Being able to lever their blade back at least a bit is vital to establishing this technique as a threat.
You can see this in the examples you give, where sometimes you are thrusting, and then you wind afterwards, and some where you get the strong into position earlier and it pivots the opponent's Messer back.
Exactly! I included a lot of sequences where it didn't quite work and mostly that happens when leverage doesn't check out like you say. :)
Great points on Czajkowski. Really interesting to seeing it being used both ways.
Thanks!
Interesting thoughts about blind fencing and doing absetzen as a single time technique. I've seldom thought about it in those terms, tending towards reclaiming the vor when an opponent presses forward in the bind, but it's very similar in principle to schielhau in longsword fencing, which I almost always use in this manner after baiting an attack.
Nice! I think retaking the initiative in a bind would just be considered a regular winding, but that mostly comes from my view that the second quarter of Lecküchner's Haupstücke teach solutions to common problems encountered in fencing. In this case, that problem would be an opponent having a fast comitted attack in preparation. :)
This is great, Oskar. Thank you!
Very nice breakdown. It's also particularly interesting to me, as what you say about Leckuechner's advice seems in contrast to what is proposed in HS3227a, where Absetczen is specifically connected to the guards with the point laid on the ground, such as Schranckhute or Pforte (aka Pflug in HS3227a). I also experimented with it using a messer, as HS3227a is adamant that messer works just like the sword, and Abesetczen actually worked decently from point-downward guards for me. But I am nowhere near your proficiency with the messer and also lack very competent one-handed sword sparring partners, so this may be an artefact of my training environment. Thoughts?
Thanks! I'd be curious in that case if the HS32227a has the same mechanics for Absetzen as RDL and Lecküchner. Ultimately, Pastey and Stier work well enough for Absetzen, just not optimal. The directional changes involved with them makes the two-part single-time action more difficult. I think this is more of an issue with messer than with longsword, for two reasons: with messer we have only one hand, meaning pressure and leverage must be spot on or things won't work well at all. For this reason, there's also the tendency of messers to travel upwards in the bind, at least more so than with longsword. This means that you have to compensate for that when trying to accurately land a thrust. That all means that anything that complicates the movement, such as going up sideways to cover, continuing to move directly upwards after and forward with the point (Absetzen from Pastey), will make it harder to aim the point well. In short Pastey and Stier work, but they won't work as well as Eber, because from position you'll simply have a less complicated movement to make.
@@VirtualFechtschule That's very interesting. Now, having read your comment, it downed on me that it likely is mechanical thing. Abesetczen in HS3227a does not hit in itself, it only sets the point at an opening while removing the threat made by the opponent. After all, the corresponing Zettel says: "Von payden seyten trif allemal wiltu schreiten", suggesting that it is the step that makes the hit. Moreover, the only example of Abesetczen's application given in prose comes from the "Other masters" section. There, Abesetczen is delivered from Schranckhute to intercept the opponent's attack, but then the hit (by riposte in this case) is a strike (slag) to the foot (sic!) "or wherever he may hit him best". I have just rewatched some of my video documentation on Abesetczen used in sparring and it actually tends to have percussive component in the initial bind.
Great video. I noticed however that every one of your demonstrated overhand absetzen included a Winding, and I'm not convinced that's necessary. Getting that low bind into a long thrust without winding high might be something you want to experiment with.
Have you tried this with one-handers, or just with longsword? The reason I'm asking is because I find that, the messer blade being shorter and the coach's hand going upwards, the weapon just goes up to a high hengen automatically. Diffusing the impact on the wrist might play a role for me as well. Whenever the coach keeps their thrust low, I can (and should) definitely stick to a low hengen, but whenever I get a bit more resistance, I go up with their messer. It works fine as far as I can tell. :D
I think absetz is parry-riposte in the first place, doing it as a single time counter is just speeding up the action where the parry starts to bleed into the thrust in opposition, for training purposes I don't like fixating on the single-time thrust as an interpretation because it's something you can easily screw up and double with if both fencers are just racing to land their thrust first.
Fundamentally I think of the action as cover -> thrust whereas ansetzen is the opposite, thrusting to an opening and then covering their sword second. In foil you'd start in sixte at your right side, a lot like pflug only slightly higher, and do a simple lateral motion to parry in quarte on your inside (again similar to left pflug) and then counter thrust.
The only significant difference in how I do parry in quarte -> riposte compared to absetzen is that with arming swords and messers you're more likely to stay in opposition, since foils are so light that you can finish the thrust by simply coming back to the centre and extending instead of seeking to gain favourable blade presence with an overbind.
Thanks, this is a pretty good explanation. Absetzen as I show it here is neither a single time counter, nor a parry-riposte action, I think. It has elements of both. Central to it is indeed the two part action that I talk about when I mention the launching order: first we cover, then we thrust. like you say, this can't be messed up, otherwise it will be a double. It definitely has the two-part action that we associate with parry-riposte.
But Absetzen is also an Indes action, meaning that this action is completed roughly at the same time as the attack it counters is completed. That means we have to do two actions in the time our opponent does one. There's a few things that I think coïncide to make that work: 1. the opponent needs to close the distance, meaning their movement will take more time than ours. 2. We only need to offset the opponent's attack, meaning the covering motion can remain relatively small. 3. We do Absetzen when we anticipate the opponent's attack, meaning we don't have to do any decision making before starting to move. All in all, these things allow this to be an Indes action, meaning that it also has elements of a single time counter.