This is like Thunderdome - Two brainiacs enter. One brainiac leaves. _Then the other one also leaves, but is slightly miffed that they might not have been correct about something._
Except the one that was correct left quite miffed about being dismissed (seriously he didn't even listen, he just waited for break so he could speak) while the other continued supremely confident in the correctness of his error.
I can understand the confusion because the Oxford Shorter Dictionary defines 'luncheon' as an extension of lunch in the same way that trunch was extended to truncheon, and yet when going to the definition of 'lunch' we are told that it is an abbreviation of luncheon. Both word origins cannot be correct, but even the editors of the Oxford Shorter feel compelled to have a bet both ways, and hope like heck that no one decides to compare the two entries and notice the inconsistency.
I understand it this way: The modern sense is an abbreviation of lunch, but luncheon was derived from lunch which at the time meant "thick piece, or hunk (of bread)." Lunch became luncheon which took on a different meaning then was truncated back to lunch.
@artistjoh language is invented and reinvented by humans. Of course there is a huge amount of illogic. Otherwise.eveey verb would be totally regular and we would end up with something closer to Newspeak than.the infuriating, illogical and absurdly beautiful mess that is the English language.
@@artistjohit is not illogic, just dynamic, fluid, and very much subject to change. I'm sure it felt logical and perfectly right when things like that start changing, again and again.
@@bzuidgeesti used to eat a skibidi meal in the morning, but now i eat a skibidi meal in the afternoon, I'm now calling a meal at 12pm exactly skibidilunch
@duxnihilo Hell if I know. The klaxon went off, which should mean that it's wrong, but afterward they implied (if I remember correctly) that they might have venerated hares.
Ha, it's just ego vs ego; BBC researchers and Stephen vs VC and her researchers. Both would LOOOVE to triumph over the other. Victoria's condescending "Well, I've done a whole program on it" was churlish and no justification for definitive truth. Lots of programs by lots of smart people have been wrong.
I remember once when Stephen and Rory McGrath had a disagreement I didn't give a shit. With this one, I do care because Victoria is interesting and bringing the facts that she uncovered. She's not just saying "I'm right, you're wrong"
Rory McGrath was such an interesting contestant on QI because he made no discernible attempt to be funny, he just gave the correct answers, and largely didn’t fall into any of the “common misconception” bear traps. By the end, the programme was so dry, and had been so utterly derailed by Rory uncomplicatedly knowing things that Stephen was visibly miffed, and I don’t think Rory was ever on the show again.
@@peterbryson7135the rumour is that only one guest has ever asked to be sent the questions in advance of filming, and it was Rory. Explains why he knew all the answers. It was also an unbearable, unfunny watch as a result.
@@JetsonDrumsWeirdly he also genuinely did this on that 90's sports panel comedy show that was really big at the time but now largely forgotten They Think It's All Over. On several episodes he would pointlessly cheat by sneaking a look at Nick Hancocks question cards at a game where the aim is to get laughs... I just don't get it? I think he was somehow terrified of looking stupid on national television and thought it was more important to seem more knowledgeable and a winner. Points to a very fragile ego
Maybe there is a connection to the Danish word "luns" means "what you can bite on and tear off some bigger item" (usually food). So you can have a luns of bread, meat or cheeese for example.
That makes so much sense to me. The English language borrows so many of its words from other languages and we do have a history with the Danes. Thank you for that. I’m afraid I’m a bit of a nerd when it comes to English words and phrases and their origins.
Apparently it comes from the Spanish word "lonja", which (according to my Googling only; I am not a speaker of either Spanish nor Danish) has the same meaning as the Danish "luns".
Just to beat boredom, I had memorised that made-up Greek word during a summer holiday around the age of 12. It was in an obscure book of records published in the 1970s. I didn't have the pronunciations correct back then, but got the order of the letters intact. My friends at school used to be amazed and we used to have a jolly good laugh. 😂 I still have that word memorised at 30.
Yes, but the "lunch first" trail does not have any of the "nobody knows why" section that the "nuncheon first" trail. One is a logical sequence that parallels other sequences, the other is assumed because of similarity.
When I was small the midday meal was dinner and the early evening one tea. Still are to my old mum. Saved all manner of arguments. Trunch is a village in Norfolk where an hour feels like an eon... (909 people are now out to get me.... Uh-oh... 🙊)
Same here with dinner. The meal break in the school day was officially called dinner. My parents only started to call the evening meal dinner when my siblings and I brought that idea back from other places we'd lived. It's now ingrained in me; but my parents go back and forth. I'm from Portsmouth, by the way, so this isn't a north/south thing. I suspect it is more of a working class plus dates of growing up thing. (We kids picked up 'lunch' as a term for the middle meal from time at university.)
@@BF-up5xw Definitely a working class thing rather than geographic. Me? Somerset working class. I learned 'lunch' at grammar school. My parents stuck with the old ways, my mum to this day.
Exactly why we all went to schools that employed dinner ladies, because they served dinner at dinner time. I now live in Canada where it's breakfast, lunch and supper. They have no idea what elevenses is. Dinner is a rarely used word, at least in these parts. Doesn't an hour feel like an eon in all of Norfolk?
Yes, school dinners and hot dinners, the meal you had at school. Then tea in the evening. As an adult I’ve picked up saying lunch and dinner instead of dinner and tea, as I guess it’s more common nowadays.
The meal after breakfast is Dinner that's why they were called Dinner-ladies at school. Luncheon is for posh types who don't have to rush back to work. You then have afternoon tea, high tea and evening meal or supper.
I always see Dinner as being the main meal of the day. If you have it between 12-2pm then the other one is a tea. If you have it between 5-7pm the other one is a lunch. Supper is a late-night snack, in my case hot chocolate & a few biscuits
@@elaineb7065 Sometimes "supper" replaces "dinner" as the evening meal, as is common in Canada. The four main meal types, to me are: breakfast, lunch, dinner, and supper. Usually only three meals are taken and dinner is a bigger meal usually eaten in company. Dinner can replace lunch or supper, as the biggest meal of the day (as you say), while on more normal days when there's no particularly big meal (eaten in company) dinner is left out. These are only my observations in my culture, so YMMV
Lunch is always around midday. Dinner is the main meal of the day, that can be at “lunch time” if you are from the north of Britain, but everywhere else commonly uses “dinner” to mean the evening meal (this can also be called “tea” or “supper”). It’s not set in stone 😂
@@Spv1627 👍 I thought it was a class thing, not a north / south divide (although at the time they were fairly synonymous). Working class didn't have enough time (or facilities) mid day for the main meal.
I had forgotten that one of the contestants on Australia's most recent TASKMASTER had appeared on Q.I. along with future TASMASTER U.K. participants Allan Davis and Victoria Coren-Mitchell! Way to go, Lloyd Langford!
Important to remember that QI is sometimes wrong. Additionally, ‘facts’ get revised at later dates when additional information has been gathered. I would tend to trust Victoria on this one rather than the QI researchers.
There is also the option that they are both right, but for maybe different eras and different parts of the country. Language is fluid and doesn't always go in straight lines.
QI is *very often* wrong, or at least, they give very superficial and misleading knowledge on the subject. Whenever they happen to discuss something that you happen to know about, you realize just how little they actually understand it. I mean, it makes sense, of course; their facts are hastily researched by a team of people who can't possibly be experts on every single topic. But anything QI states as an absolute fact should always be taken with a massive grain of salt. It's a fantastic show, but it's entertainment.
@@wloffblizz Plus Stephen Fry has repeated urban myths as facts without providing any evidence for it. The "women prisoners sometimes ask for vertical stripes" bullshit is the one that springs to mind.
I've often said the same about the news... The minute they start talking about a subject you know something about, it becomes shockingly apparent how little actual fact there is behind their reporting@@wloffblizz
@@itsamindgame9198 So you refuse to forgive them for refusing to accept they are wrong? By that logic most arguments will never be resolved and escalate into an even more polarizing society. I will never forgive you for that ! :)
@@atyourservice Of, course, "forgive" was too strong a word, because they didn't do anything to me, but I was borrowing the word already in use. But the principle of forgiveness requiring an acknowledgement of wrong - versus forbearance where one just moves on - is still true.
@@itsamindgame9198 Ah no worries, it was my attempt to make a joke with a play on words you used. You said nothing wrong :) Although I do think there's some truth in the point I was making. I mean : we live in a seamingly overpolarizing world which can only be reversed if we change our perspective and try to connect with each other. Which may include forgiving somebody even when then didn't ask for forgiveness. I'm not saying I'm a good example for it, but I recognise the need for it :) BTW I was wondering the same thing about the necessity of admitting guilt in order to receive forgiveness, it seems it isn't necessary according to the dictionnary .I found this definition for the verb 'forgive' in the online 'Oxfordlearningdictionnary' : "to stop feeling angry with somebody who has done something to harm, annoy or upset you; to stop feeling angry with yourself". That being said I guess it's usually implied. That's the end of my rambling thought for now :)
This was a weirdly familiar clip, for me. Any time I'm in a conversation and two intellectual heavyweights start talking at a level higher than I can follow, I just do the same thing Jack did, here: Listen quietly until the opportunity for a snap joke comes in :P I may not be able to contribute meaningfully, but I'm listening intently and I can at least make you laugh :D
QI is wrong here and Victoria is right. _Lunch_ originally, was a northern dialect word in the mid 16th century meaning a hunk of bread or cheese, usually consumed at midday. This got corrupted to _lunchen_ or _lunchin_ meaning the midday meal and later got merged into the word _nuncheon_ (which was the word for a light meal and/or drink taken around midday) a century later producing _luncheon._
@@sirrathersplendid4825 I didn't know her as a personality before this video but I have actually met her in person, a couple of years ago when she came with David Mitchell and their daughter for lunch at my restaurant. They were all lovely people. The funny annecdote was that the three of them were reading at the table before getting their food. The daughter, who seemed to be around 9, was reading the newspaper! 🤣 That was exactly what I would've expecedt from David Mitchell's child😁 He actually came quite a few times for business meetings. I was already a fan of his, but it's even better when you get to see he's a very nice person.
The word "lunch" came first, before "luncheon." "Lunch" is believed to have originated in the 1500s as a shortened form of "luncheon." It comes from an earlier word "nuncheon," which referred to a light midday meal. "Luncheon" appeared later, in the 1650s, as an extended form of "lunch." It was likely created to sound more formal or refined than the shorter "lunch." So the sequence was: 1. Nuncheon (original term) 2. Lunch (shortened form, 1500s) 3. Luncheon (extended form, 1650s) Today, "lunch" is the more common, everyday term, while "luncheon" tends to be used for more formal or special midday meals.
The etymology is just uncertain. You can check different sources that give different answers. Nuncheon and lunch are both old terms and both plausibly are the origin of luncheon. But it's worth keeping in mind that "luncheon" was the standard term, greatly preferred over "lunch," for quite a long time. So it's perfectly possible that "luncheon" (or "lunching," "lunchin," etc.) was an extension of "lunch," but then later "lunch" was a clipping of "luncheon."
Wait... You say "lunch" came first, because people shortened it from "luncheon", and "luncheon" didn't appear until a hundred and fifty years later when people extended it back out again...? Not a fan of Doctor Who by any chance are you? lmao
Yes, exactly so both Steven and Victoria can be right I am glad because it seems to be very important to both of them. I always thought of lunch as a working class sort of meal you take around noon if you have to work outside the home and a farmers family has dinner @ 12:00 and supper later on after the sun goes down. And a luncheon luncheon is more like some kind of fundraising event people hold every once in a while .
2:13 "No one's quite sure why it changed to luncheon..." perhaps it changed from "nuncheon" to "luncheon" because they borrowed the L from the shorter "lunch." "People extended it to luncheon because they thought it sounded smarter" also isn't entirely convincing on its own-- if people just wanted it to sound smarter, it feels like there are a million other forms the word could've taken that might’ve soundes smarter than "luncheon." Each theory could fill the gap in the other, I think.
I just googled lunch. Its a 16th century word meaning a "lump" of bread eaten in the middle of the day. The meal is not as heavy, or formal, as an evening meal.
It is not. "meinis" is the Proto-Celtic for "ore" while the Minotaur is named after the mythological king of Crete, Minos. So it's completely coincidental that the two words are similar, but still a pretty good question to ponder.
There have been a few archaic revivals of words simply to sound smarter. It wouldnt surprise me that sometime after luncheon was shortene dto lunch someone 2 generations later romanced about luncheon and it took off as a fad for a bit
Especially now they've added healthy snacks to the options. Same wi the Co-op. Love the little fruit bowls!!! I can indulge without indulging so to speak
From Wikipedia: "According to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), the etymology of lunch is uncertain. It may have evolved from lump in a similar way to hunch, a derivative of hump, and bunch, a derivative of bump. Alternatively, it may have evolved from the Spanish lonja, meaning 'slice of ham'. It was first recorded in 1591 with the meaning 'thick piece, hunk' as in "lunch of bacon". The modern definition was first recorded in 1829.[2] The word luncheon (/ˈlʌntʃən/) has a similarly uncertain origin according to the OED, being "related in some way" to lunch. It is possible that luncheon is an extension of lunch, as with punch to puncheon and trunch to truncheon.[3] Originally interchangeable with lunch, it is now used in especially formal circumstances.[2] The Oxford Companion to Food claims that luncheon is a Northern England English word that is derived from the Old English word nuncheon or nunchin meaning 'noon drink'.[4] The OED records the words "nuncheon" and "nunchion" with the meaning "drink" or "snack" in various forms since the Middle English period."
I'm Spanish and this is the first time I hear that we call a slice "lonja", but apparently it's true. The common word we use for a slice of ham is "loncha", which is even more similar to the English word "lunch" than "lonja" (pronounced LON-ha). We usually use "lonja" to refer to a market place focused on selling fresh fish.
Is this an "island" and "isle" situation? Both mean the same thing, but come from different roots, and because they are so similar, everyone assumes isle is a short form of island
Nonshench comes from combining None and Schenche - Noon-draught. But Schenche is something that would quickly get shortened when put at the end of None, because it's a mouthful. Often the Norse would have words like that - Odin was, I suspect, Od'n (I believe, and most likely because it was cold out and you would prefer not to let the cold air into your mouth by using an open "i" sound.) the anglo/german "Brunhilde" was "Br(y)n-h(y)ldr", emphasizing the n and l, which again doesn't open the mouth near as much.) None-Schenche would be, pretty quickly, reduced to Nonchesh/Noneche/Nunch if it was predominantly cold out, but might very well remain None-schenche (three syllables) if it made its way to Germany or even south England. That's my pair of spend-a-pennies at least.
Perhaps workmen watching the lollygagging city folk sitting in a field with their cucumber sandwiches stopped by for a nunceon an a chat, and one drink led to another and a new word was drunkenly minted. It's always noon somewhere...
The word "lunch" has an interesting etymology. It is believed to have originated in the late 16th century, derived from the word "lunch" or "luncheon," which itself is a diminutive form of "lunch" used in the context of a light meal. Here’s a breakdown of its origins: Old English Influence: The term may have roots in the Old English word "nuncheon," which referred to a light meal taken between regular meals, particularly a snack or a light bite. Spanish Influence: Some etymologists suggest it might be connected to the Spanish word "lonche," which refers to a light meal or lunch. Diminutive Forms: In the 17th century, "luncheon" appeared as a term for a light meal, especially one taken in the middle of the day. The shortened form, "lunch," began to gain popularity in the late 19th century. Cultural Context: Initially, "luncheon" was often used in more formal contexts, whereas "lunch" has evolved to become the more commonly used term for the midday meal in modern English. In summary, "lunch" likely stems from earlier terms associated with light meals and snacks, evolving through cultural and linguistic changes over several centuries.
Not interested in the roadkill hotpot the Greeks called lunch. Nuncheon sounds like a non meal. Not lunch, not brunch. Surely luncheon is the act of eating lunch? Clearly the lunch must have come first.
Were these 2 completely different people, he'd be accused of being sexist for speaking over her and she'd be accused of being homophobic for arguing with him. Instead we get healthy debate the way it should be. I like QI
The way that everyone let Fry talk but talked / laughed over her is... telling. (obviously the audience is less at fault than the presenters - but still the points she was making were worth hearing)
Mitchell was able to make her points clearly, this isn't the "telling" situation you think it is. You've also based this entirely off of an edited excerpt of an entire episode. This isn't to dismiss this kind of behaviour, which clearly does exist in the world but to pin that kind of pattern recognition and project it onto this is just plain divisive
Yet again showing how David Mitchell married up... when Fry called him out on something in his show he'd just say "well they give you these things to read..."
All this proves is that these TV shows and TH-cam shows with their research aren’t always true even though they sound really convincing. They do as much research as they care to do but it can still be disputed.
You don't know the half of it. Ever hear of Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy? "Everything you read in the newspaper is absolutely true-except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge." And Michael Crichton's "Gell-Mann Amnesia effect": "You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. [...] You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. [...] You read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
This is something I don't like about QI. Bald facts stated as true, and even when someone else has put more time into research and calls BS, they still just repeat the bald facts as if repeating it or saying slowly makes it more true. "I don't know of any people using the word "lunch" before "luncheon" is so incredibly arrogant. Being ignorant of the fact doesn't make it go away. First use of "luncheon" was in the mid 17th century, while the first use of "lunch" was in the late 16th century (about 60 years earlier). "Lunch" is thought to have come from "lonja" (Spanish for a slice of ham" or be derived from "lump", like hunch came from hump and bunch came from bump. It could be both because "lunch of bacon" basically meant a lump of bacon. Nuncheon is a drink in the middle of the day, lunch is a small meal.
Jack was probably the funniest in this clip. Sorry his brand of humour isn't your thing but he appeals to many others so that's why he's there. Also, there are no "subsidiary people" on QI, just many different types that may not always appeal to all viewers. Better luck next time.
@@samuellawrencesbookclub8250 You know very well what you said there, and despite my laughing like a childish so and so at it, it was very naughty!!! :P
@@twocvbloke Sorry, not my intention, glad I made you laugh though. I was referencing the fact that Victoria is acting like David in this clip, and that he has rubbed off on her in that sense. Is this not a common expression?
Your comments aren't going to make it change. You'll just get a few likes from some who agree. Everyone else will either ignore you completely, think that you're a twat for making a negative comment on every QI video that you don't like or occasionally point out that you're being rather pathetic. Why waste your time? Just watch the ones you like and move on.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 86 | คู่เอก "คมเพชร vs ชาติพยัคฆ์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/m3q_dRYDuU8/mqdefault.jpg)
This is like Thunderdome - Two brainiacs enter. One brainiac leaves. _Then the other one also leaves, but is slightly miffed that they might not have been correct about something._
😂🤣
Except the one that was correct left quite miffed about being dismissed (seriously he didn't even listen, he just waited for break so he could speak) while the other continued supremely confident in the correctness of his error.
"... it's like two stags..."
Brilliant and yes.
That's two great stags to you!
This is almost one of those "Mom, Dad, please stop fighting" moments. XD
I can understand the confusion because the Oxford Shorter Dictionary defines 'luncheon' as an extension of lunch in the same way that trunch was extended to truncheon, and yet when going to the definition of 'lunch' we are told that it is an abbreviation of luncheon. Both word origins cannot be correct, but even the editors of the Oxford Shorter feel compelled to have a bet both ways, and hope like heck that no one decides to compare the two entries and notice the inconsistency.
I understand it this way: The modern sense is an abbreviation of lunch, but luncheon was derived from lunch which at the time meant "thick piece, or hunk (of bread)." Lunch became luncheon which took on a different meaning then was truncated back to lunch.
@@winkletter There is a lot of logic in your explanation, although it, of course, highlights the illogic of the trajectory of language.
@artistjoh language is invented and reinvented by humans. Of course there is a huge amount of illogic. Otherwise.eveey verb would be totally regular and we would end up with something closer to Newspeak than.the infuriating, illogical and absurdly beautiful mess that is the English language.
@@artistjohit is not illogic, just dynamic, fluid, and very much subject to change. I'm sure it felt logical and perfectly right when things like that start changing, again and again.
@@bzuidgeesti used to eat a skibidi meal in the morning, but now i eat a skibidi meal in the afternoon, I'm now calling a meal at 12pm exactly skibidilunch
I don't think I've seen Victoria quite so animated!
If you want to see her animated, ask her "Why was the march hare so important to the Aztecs?"
@@John_Smith_60. Thanks for the advise, but I think I've seen it!
@@John_Smith_60Did they worship them?
@duxnihilo Hell if I know. The klaxon went off, which should mean that it's wrong, but afterward they implied (if I remember correctly) that they might have venerated hares.
@@John_Smith_60 I was quoting her. :)
I have such a crush on Victoria Coren Mitchell. I love how she doesn't back down from her position AND she's funny.
She and David are the only royals to me =) VCM has such a powerful intellect and jokey and super cute
That's because she's right
Ha, it's just ego vs ego; BBC researchers and Stephen vs VC and her researchers. Both would LOOOVE to triumph over the other.
Victoria's condescending "Well, I've done a whole program on it" was churlish and no justification for definitive truth. Lots of programs by lots of smart people have been wrong.
@@thedolphin5428But in this instance she isn’t… 😉
she probably doesnt have a crush on you though
I remember once when Stephen and Rory McGrath had a disagreement I didn't give a shit. With this one, I do care because Victoria is interesting and bringing the facts that she uncovered. She's not just saying "I'm right, you're wrong"
Rory McGrath was such an interesting contestant on QI because he made no discernible attempt to be funny, he just gave the correct answers, and largely didn’t fall into any of the “common misconception” bear traps. By the end, the programme was so dry, and had been so utterly derailed by Rory uncomplicatedly knowing things that Stephen was visibly miffed, and I don’t think Rory was ever on the show again.
@@peterbryson7135the rumour is that only one guest has ever asked to be sent the questions in advance of filming, and it was Rory. Explains why he knew all the answers. It was also an unbearable, unfunny watch as a result.
@@JetsonDrums Absolutely that makes a lot of sense
@@peterbryson7135 There are other reasons why he has never been on the show again...
@@JetsonDrumsWeirdly he also genuinely did this on that 90's sports panel comedy show that was really big at the time but now largely forgotten They Think It's All Over.
On several episodes he would pointlessly cheat by sneaking a look at Nick Hancocks question cards at a game where the aim is to get laughs... I just don't get it?
I think he was somehow terrified of looking stupid on national television and thought it was more important to seem more knowledgeable and a winner.
Points to a very fragile ego
That’s not a word - it’s a menu!
Susie Dent says Lunch came first. I will believe the world's foremost lexicographer over a program that has to admit it's facts are sometimes wrong.
Yeah, agreed. A lexicologist over an online search any day!
Its
World's foremost?
even quite facty facts are sometimes wrong, and not admitting that would be bad and silly
@@theradgegadgie6352 It's a title she gets from Cats Does Countdown.
Maybe there is a connection to the Danish word "luns" means "what you can bite on and tear off some bigger item" (usually food). So you can have a luns of bread, meat or cheeese for example.
QI needs to revisit this with Sandi.
That makes so much sense to me. The English language borrows so many of its words from other languages and we do have a history with the Danes. Thank you for that. I’m afraid I’m a bit of a nerd when it comes to English words and phrases and their origins.
Sounds pretty likely actually
Apparently it comes from the Spanish word "lonja", which (according to my Googling only; I am not a speaker of either Spanish nor Danish) has the same meaning as the Danish "luns".
@@Claire-k5q Etymology is fun, don't apologize
This little clip is five of my favorite people all at once. Never saw the original show, now I need to find it!
Just to beat boredom, I had memorised that made-up Greek word during a summer holiday around the age of 12. It was in an obscure book of records published in the 1970s. I didn't have the pronunciations correct back then, but got the order of the letters intact. My friends at school used to be amazed and we used to have a jolly good laugh. 😂 I still have that word memorised at 30.
There's a clever boy, now go and wash your hands, lunch is ready.
Lunch comes from the kitchen.
Touché!
💯
I have to say that etymology is an inexact science, sometimes with multiple theories, and no specific proofs
Yes, but the "lunch first" trail does not have any of the "nobody knows why" section that the "nuncheon first" trail. One is a logical sequence that parallels other sequences, the other is assumed because of similarity.
Jack is so quick-witted in this clip that one can see why his style brought the good laughs.
When I was small the midday meal was dinner and the early evening one tea. Still are to my old mum. Saved all manner of arguments. Trunch is a village in Norfolk where an hour feels like an eon... (909 people are now out to get me.... Uh-oh... 🙊)
Same here with dinner. The meal break in the school day was officially called dinner. My parents only started to call the evening meal dinner when my siblings and I brought that idea back from other places we'd lived. It's now ingrained in me; but my parents go back and forth. I'm from Portsmouth, by the way, so this isn't a north/south thing. I suspect it is more of a working class plus dates of growing up thing. (We kids picked up 'lunch' as a term for the middle meal from time at university.)
@@BF-up5xw Definitely a working class thing rather than geographic. Me? Somerset working class. I learned 'lunch' at grammar school. My parents stuck with the old ways, my mum to this day.
Exactly why we all went to schools that employed dinner ladies, because they served dinner at dinner time. I now live in Canada where it's breakfast, lunch and supper. They have no idea what elevenses is. Dinner is a rarely used word, at least in these parts. Doesn't an hour feel like an eon in all of Norfolk?
@@MrSimonmcc Exactly! There are dinner ladies and ladies who lunch...
Yes, school dinners and hot dinners, the meal you had at school. Then tea in the evening. As an adult I’ve picked up saying lunch and dinner instead of dinner and tea, as I guess it’s more common nowadays.
The meal after breakfast is Dinner that's why they were called Dinner-ladies at school. Luncheon is for posh types who don't have to rush back to work. You then have afternoon tea, high tea and evening meal or supper.
I always see Dinner as being the main meal of the day. If you have it between 12-2pm then the other one is a tea. If you have it between 5-7pm the other one is a lunch. Supper is a late-night snack, in my case hot chocolate & a few biscuits
@@elaineb7065 Sometimes "supper" replaces "dinner" as the evening meal, as is common in Canada. The four main meal types, to me are: breakfast, lunch, dinner, and supper. Usually only three meals are taken and dinner is a bigger meal usually eaten in company. Dinner can replace lunch or supper, as the biggest meal of the day (as you say), while on more normal days when there's no particularly big meal (eaten in company) dinner is left out.
These are only my observations in my culture, so YMMV
Ohh no!
You missed second breakfast, mid morning snack, and elevensies!
You'll fade away!
Lunch is always around midday. Dinner is the main meal of the day, that can be at “lunch time” if you are from the north of Britain, but everywhere else commonly uses “dinner” to mean the evening meal (this can also be called “tea” or “supper”). It’s not set in stone 😂
@@Spv1627 👍 I thought it was a class thing, not a north / south divide (although at the time they were fairly synonymous). Working class didn't have enough time (or facilities) mid day for the main meal.
I had forgotten that one of the contestants on Australia's most recent TASKMASTER had appeared on Q.I. along with future TASMASTER U.K. participants Allan Davis and Victoria Coren-Mitchell! Way to go, Lloyd Langford!
Lloyd is also a regular on Aussie “Have You Been Paying Attention?”
Important to remember that QI is sometimes wrong. Additionally, ‘facts’ get revised at later dates when additional information has been gathered. I would tend to trust Victoria on this one rather than the QI researchers.
There is also the option that they are both right, but for maybe different eras and different parts of the country. Language is fluid and doesn't always go in straight lines.
QI is *very often* wrong, or at least, they give very superficial and misleading knowledge on the subject. Whenever they happen to discuss something that you happen to know about, you realize just how little they actually understand it.
I mean, it makes sense, of course; their facts are hastily researched by a team of people who can't possibly be experts on every single topic. But anything QI states as an absolute fact should always be taken with a massive grain of salt. It's a fantastic show, but it's entertainment.
@@wloffblizz Plus Stephen Fry has repeated urban myths as facts without providing any evidence for it. The "women prisoners sometimes ask for vertical stripes" bullshit is the one that springs to mind.
I've often said the same about the news... The minute they start talking about a subject you know something about, it becomes shockingly apparent how little actual fact there is behind their reporting@@wloffblizz
Victoria is correct. Lunch was extended to luncheon.
But then luncheon was truncated back to lunch, so one can forgive the elves for getting this wrong.
@@BravoDox But one cannot forgive them for refusing to accept that they got it wrong.
@@itsamindgame9198 So you refuse to forgive them for refusing to accept they are wrong? By that logic most arguments will never be resolved and escalate into an even more polarizing society. I will never forgive you for that ! :)
@@atyourservice
Of, course, "forgive" was too strong a word, because they didn't do anything to me, but I was borrowing the word already in use.
But the principle of forgiveness requiring an acknowledgement of wrong - versus forbearance where one just moves on - is still true.
@@itsamindgame9198 Ah no worries, it was my attempt to make a joke with a play on words you used. You said nothing wrong :) Although I do think there's some truth in the point I was making. I mean : we live in a seamingly overpolarizing world which can only be reversed if we change our perspective and try to connect with each other. Which may include forgiving somebody even when then didn't ask for forgiveness. I'm not saying I'm a good example for it, but I recognise the need for it :) BTW I was wondering the same thing about the necessity of admitting guilt in order to receive forgiveness, it seems it isn't necessary according to the dictionnary .I found this definition for the verb 'forgive' in the online 'Oxfordlearningdictionnary' : "to stop feeling angry with somebody who has done something to harm, annoy or upset you; to stop feeling angry with yourself". That being said I guess it's usually implied. That's the end of my rambling thought for now :)
I am a simple man. I see Victoria Coren , I click. Love her.
Fry, as much as I love him, is just reading stuff that other people wrote for him. Coren is right.
Reminds me, I need to eat lunch
eon.
@@jb888888888 15 minutes will do
It's neat that even such a common word's etymology is not fully understood, or is at least debatable.
Nobody knows where ‘dog’ came from, either.
But we know that it means "not a cat", at least according to Blackadder 😂
@@homagetogorto or "bird".
Let’s just pause and appreciate that Alan knew of Aristophanes, AND that he was a comic playwright.
Usually the fridge or sometimes Tesco
I don't eat lunch, so it doesn't come from anywhere.
This was a weirdly familiar clip, for me. Any time I'm in a conversation and two intellectual heavyweights start talking at a level higher than I can follow, I just do the same thing Jack did, here: Listen quietly until the opportunity for a snap joke comes in :P
I may not be able to contribute meaningfully, but I'm listening intently and I can at least make you laugh :D
QI is wrong here and Victoria is right. _Lunch_ originally, was a northern dialect word in the mid 16th century meaning a hunk of bread or cheese, usually consumed at midday. This got corrupted to _lunchen_ or _lunchin_ meaning the midday meal and later got merged into the word _nuncheon_ (which was the word for a light meal and/or drink taken around midday) a century later producing _luncheon._
It comes from the cupboard, or Asda, or Just Eat, or, ooohhhhh, wait, the word, not the actual acquiring of food........ :P
Agh, Victoria is absolutely breathtaking
Brains AND magnificent tits....But that's enough about Stephen Fry ....😀
Too late David Mitchell got there first. 😆😂🤣
@@sirrathersplendid4825 I didn't know her as a personality before this video but I have actually met her in person, a couple of years ago when she came with David Mitchell and their daughter for lunch at my restaurant. They were all lovely people. The funny annecdote was that the three of them were reading at the table before getting their food. The daughter, who seemed to be around 9, was reading the newspaper! 🤣 That was exactly what I would've expecedt from David Mitchell's child😁 He actually came quite a few times for business meetings. I was already a fan of his, but it's even better when you get to see he's a very nice person.
The word "lunch" came first, before "luncheon."
"Lunch" is believed to have originated in the 1500s as a shortened form of "luncheon." It comes from an earlier word "nuncheon," which referred to a light midday meal.
"Luncheon" appeared later, in the 1650s, as an extended form of "lunch." It was likely created to sound more formal or refined than the shorter "lunch."
So the sequence was:
1. Nuncheon (original term)
2. Lunch (shortened form, 1500s)
3. Luncheon (extended form, 1650s)
Today, "lunch" is the more common, everyday term, while "luncheon" tends to be used for more formal or special midday meals.
The etymology is just uncertain. You can check different sources that give different answers. Nuncheon and lunch are both old terms and both plausibly are the origin of luncheon. But it's worth keeping in mind that "luncheon" was the standard term, greatly preferred over "lunch," for quite a long time. So it's perfectly possible that "luncheon" (or "lunching," "lunchin," etc.) was an extension of "lunch," but then later "lunch" was a clipping of "luncheon."
I don't understand your post - how does lunch come from luncheon if it preceded it?
Wait... You say "lunch" came first, because people shortened it from "luncheon", and "luncheon" didn't appear until a hundred and fifty years later when people extended it back out again...?
Not a fan of Doctor Who by any chance are you? lmao
Yes, exactly so both Steven and Victoria can be right I am glad because it seems to be very important to both of them.
I always thought of lunch as a working class sort of meal you take around noon if you have to work outside the home and a farmers family has dinner @ 12:00 and supper later on after the sun goes down. And a luncheon luncheon is more like some kind of fundraising event people hold every once in a while .
So glad they got rid of the extra "eon" bit. I mean, it just took too long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Especially when you are starving!.:)
Excellent wordplay there.
@@wanderlustwarrior 😁 I thunk so too.
Why the heck do we say too and to? 🤦♂
Fight, fight, fight!
What do they say?
Victoria Coren 💕
2:13 "No one's quite sure why it changed to luncheon..." perhaps it changed from "nuncheon" to "luncheon" because they borrowed the L from the shorter "lunch."
"People extended it to luncheon because they thought it sounded smarter" also isn't entirely convincing on its own-- if people just wanted it to sound smarter, it feels like there are a million other forms the word could've taken that might’ve soundes smarter than "luncheon." Each theory could fill the gap in the other, I think.
Thanks.
I just googled lunch. Its a 16th century word meaning a "lump" of bread eaten in the middle of the day. The meal is not as heavy, or formal, as an evening meal.
Like the danish word "luns", what you can bite of a bread or piece of meat...(made another post about it here).
This sure was an unforgettable luncheon
Can't lie, only came here for VCM ❤😂
Mine comes from the fridge 😅
The cafeteria.
What liquid lunch were people eating (drinking)?
Food fight!
Is the word " mine " as in to dig for underground ore , derived from Minotaur ?
It is not. "meinis" is the Proto-Celtic for "ore" while the Minotaur is named after the mythological king of Crete, Minos. So it's completely coincidental that the two words are similar, but still a pretty good question to ponder.
@@DrZaius3141 thanks Doctor Zaius !
Im so glad im a breakfasts-dinner-tea person, much easier to, aha, digest! Along with elevenses and supper, of course!
Plus second breakfast and po-ta-toes. Well, at least if you are part hobbit like me :)
Can we not just agree that the etymology of lunch and luncheon is disputed, like many, many English words?
There have been a few archaic revivals of words simply to sound smarter. It wouldnt surprise me that sometime after luncheon was shortene dto lunch someone 2 generations later romanced about luncheon and it took off as a fad for a bit
I figured lunch was a contraction of late brunch.
Entirely possible lunchen could have become lunch, then luncheon. Neither argument discounts the other
Lunch comes from Tesco. Grab yourself a meal deal.
Especially now they've added healthy snacks to the options. Same wi the Co-op. Love the little fruit bowls!!! I can indulge without indulging so to speak
LLOYD LANGFORD !!
From Wikipedia:
"According to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), the etymology of lunch is uncertain. It may have evolved from lump in a similar way to hunch, a derivative of hump, and bunch, a derivative of bump. Alternatively, it may have evolved from the Spanish lonja, meaning 'slice of ham'. It was first recorded in 1591 with the meaning 'thick piece, hunk' as in "lunch of bacon". The modern definition was first recorded in 1829.[2]
The word luncheon (/ˈlʌntʃən/) has a similarly uncertain origin according to the OED, being "related in some way" to lunch. It is possible that luncheon is an extension of lunch, as with punch to puncheon and trunch to truncheon.[3] Originally interchangeable with lunch, it is now used in especially formal circumstances.[2] The Oxford Companion to Food claims that luncheon is a Northern England English word that is derived from the Old English word nuncheon or nunchin meaning 'noon drink'.[4] The OED records the words "nuncheon" and "nunchion" with the meaning "drink" or "snack" in various forms since the Middle English period."
I'm Spanish and this is the first time I hear that we call a slice "lonja", but apparently it's true. The common word we use for a slice of ham is "loncha", which is even more similar to the English word "lunch" than "lonja" (pronounced LON-ha). We usually use "lonja" to refer to a market place focused on selling fresh fish.
Is this an "island" and "isle" situation? Both mean the same thing, but come from different roots, and because they are so similar, everyone assumes isle is a short form of island
The kitchen.
Lunch IS a rather woody kind of word isn't it? Not tinny!
It sounds like muncheon and lunch both existed and at some point they were conflated into luncheon.
Ha! QI has got masses of things wrong.
Then they pulled a masterstroke of diversion by awarding points to the audience.Clever
love the clips but the are waay too short. extremely annoying when the video is over so fast
Nonshench comes from combining None and Schenche - Noon-draught. But Schenche is something that would quickly get shortened when put at the end of None, because it's a mouthful. Often the Norse would have words like that - Odin was, I suspect, Od'n (I believe, and most likely because it was cold out and you would prefer not to let the cold air into your mouth by using an open "i" sound.) the anglo/german "Brunhilde" was "Br(y)n-h(y)ldr", emphasizing the n and l, which again doesn't open the mouth near as much.) None-Schenche would be, pretty quickly, reduced to Nonchesh/Noneche/Nunch if it was predominantly cold out, but might very well remain None-schenche (three syllables) if it made its way to Germany or even south England.
That's my pair of spend-a-pennies at least.
The nonsense you've written is the perfect encapsulation of folk etymology with all of its pitfalls.
Not the first fact on this show that is wrong. There is a lot. I would say that Victoria is correct.
When a slight woman runs into a large body of opinion.
It came down to who’s elves were better at research.
Perhaps workmen watching the lollygagging city folk sitting in a field with their cucumber sandwiches stopped by for a nunceon an a chat, and one drink led to another and a new word was drunkenly minted.
It's always noon somewhere...
Greggs?
We don't do lunch in the North. 🥸
I'm sure Victoria is correct, but you're not going to beat someone on their own show.
Could go for some Surstromming, right now.
Everyone knows lunch comes from Wendy’s.
From Mom, of course! At least I've never had a real one since she stopped makin' 'em.
What about Luncheon Meat?
Please enable subtitles for those of us with hearing issues.
The word "lunch" has an interesting etymology. It is believed to have originated in the late 16th century, derived from the word "lunch" or "luncheon," which itself is a diminutive form of "lunch" used in the context of a light meal. Here’s a breakdown of its origins:
Old English Influence: The term may have roots in the Old English word "nuncheon," which referred to a light meal taken between regular meals, particularly a snack or a light bite.
Spanish Influence: Some etymologists suggest it might be connected to the Spanish word "lonche," which refers to a light meal or lunch.
Diminutive Forms: In the 17th century, "luncheon" appeared as a term for a light meal, especially one taken in the middle of the day. The shortened form, "lunch," began to gain popularity in the late 19th century.
Cultural Context: Initially, "luncheon" was often used in more formal contexts, whereas "lunch" has evolved to become the more commonly used term for the midday meal in modern English.
In summary, "lunch" likely stems from earlier terms associated with light meals and snacks, evolving through cultural and linguistic changes over several centuries.
Considering how shockingly bad QI research is (basically just check Wikipedia) I’m more likely to believe Victoria
So…where does the word lunch come from?
Deuce.
Aristophanes: an up-market sandwich wrap for those that won't lower themselves to use cellophane
just sod off sandi we had enough
Not interested in the roadkill hotpot the Greeks called lunch.
Nuncheon sounds like a non meal. Not lunch, not brunch.
Surely luncheon is the act of eating lunch? Clearly the lunch must have come first.
I feel like they mentioned lunch/luncheon specifically to bait VCM out into being corrected
Vicky is hot hot hot
Were these 2 completely different people, he'd be accused of being sexist for speaking over her and she'd be accused of being homophobic for arguing with him. Instead we get healthy debate the way it should be. I like QI
Sexist perhaps. Nobody would call a woman homophobic for arguing with a gay man about a topic like this.
Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper.
Those are the meals of the day. Anything other is wrong.
Thomas Brenda Moore Frank Walker Mary
The way that everyone let Fry talk but talked / laughed over her is... telling.
(obviously the audience is less at fault than the presenters - but still the points she was making were worth hearing)
OMG, he’s the host/quizmaster and the panelists are there to joke with each other and compete for laughs.
And she did, in fact, clearly make all her points.
Mitchell was able to make her points clearly, this isn't the "telling" situation you think it is. You've also based this entirely off of an edited excerpt of an entire episode. This isn't to dismiss this kind of behaviour, which clearly does exist in the world but to pin that kind of pattern recognition and project it onto this is just plain divisive
I would totally do HER
Victoria is actually correct here.
Yet again showing how David Mitchell married up... when Fry called him out on something in his show he'd just say "well they give you these things to read..."
Breakfast, Dinner, Tea. End of.
All this proves is that these TV shows and TH-cam shows with their research aren’t always true even though they sound really convincing. They do as much research as they care to do but it can still be disputed.
You don't know the half of it. Ever hear of Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy? "Everything you read in the newspaper is absolutely true-except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge."
And Michael Crichton's "Gell-Mann Amnesia effect": "You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. [...] You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. [...] You read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
This is something I don't like about QI. Bald facts stated as true, and even when someone else has put more time into research and calls BS, they still just repeat the bald facts as if repeating it or saying slowly makes it more true. "I don't know of any people using the word "lunch" before "luncheon" is so incredibly arrogant. Being ignorant of the fact doesn't make it go away.
First use of "luncheon" was in the mid 17th century, while the first use of "lunch" was in the late 16th century (about 60 years earlier). "Lunch" is thought to have come from "lonja" (Spanish for a slice of ham" or be derived from "lump", like hunch came from hump and bunch came from bump. It could be both because "lunch of bacon" basically meant a lump of bacon. Nuncheon is a drink in the middle of the day, lunch is a small meal.
02748 Hansen Crescent
I really wish the subsidiary people who are just there to fill a seat, like Jack Whitehall, would stop interrupting and let the real people speak.
Jack was probably the funniest in this clip. Sorry his brand of humour isn't your thing but he appeals to many others so that's why he's there. Also, there are no "subsidiary people" on QI, just many different types that may not always appeal to all viewers. Better luck next time.
@@weirdunclebob no he most certainly wasn't
David definitely rubs off on Victoria
Get out!!!
@@twocvbloke Qué?
@@samuellawrencesbookclub8250 You know very well what you said there, and despite my laughing like a childish so and so at it, it was very naughty!!! :P
@@twocvbloke Sorry, not my intention, glad I made you laugh though. I was referencing the fact that Victoria is acting like David in this clip, and that he has rubbed off on her in that sense. Is this not a common expression?
@@samuellawrencesbookclub8250 It is, but, the phrase "rubbing off" has other connotations too, and him doing it on her, ahem, yeah.............. :P
Hernandez Eric Lopez Paul Rodriguez Donald
I ain't posh. I eat dinner then tea. No lunch, so who cares?
Back in the days when QI was still watchable
Your comments aren't going to make it change. You'll just get a few likes from some who agree. Everyone else will either ignore you completely, think that you're a twat for making a negative comment on every QI video that you don't like or occasionally point out that you're being rather pathetic. Why waste your time? Just watch the ones you like and move on.
Lunch before luncheon is not breakfast, or even second breakfast. It's bruncheon.