I think this is what happened: Maura was very depressed at the time of her disappearance and was under a lot of pressure. I think she was also an alcoholic or getting there, because you don't drive drunk in a minor car accident once and then do it AGAIN a few days later (this time drinking wine out of a damn Pepsi bottle), unless you have a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. In the black-and-white photo where the police took a picture of her in front of her dorm, she looks like she lost weight, her face isn't as full, she looks tired... she just looks bad. So she decides to take off for a few days to collect her thoughts and basically just take a break from life. She's driving down the road, drinking wine out of a Pepsi bottle when she crashed her car into a tree. The passing school bus driver stops to see if she's okay and asks if she wants her to call the police. This freaks Maura out because she knows that the police will probably do some DUI roadside tests and find out that she had been drinking. The driver leaves, but Maura knows the police are probably going to be called soon anyway and starts to panic. She had only recently been arrested for using a stolen credit card, and that charge was supposed to be dismissed in March - but only for good behavior. A DUI would definitely be a violation of that. She starts getting worked up, thinking she's going to go to jail (she probably wouldn't have, but drunk people aren't known for being totally rational) and decides her best bet is hide in the woods. She takes off. She runs and runs and soon she finds herself lost, surrounded by a sea of trees and snow - and it's getting late. Hypothermia starts to creep in and, as her body temperature declines, so do her mind and her coordination (the alcohol certainly doesn't help, either). I think she passed away from hypothermia sometime that night. If I'm correct, then her remains are probably within a few miles of the accident scene. I think she crawled into a tight spot like a hollow log or some bushes in an attempt to find some warmth (as people suffering from a bad case of hypothermia often do) and later died in that spot, and her remains simply haven't been found yet because they're somewhat hidden. Forests are very difficult to search; sometimes the searcher even walks right past the human remains they're looking for, and it isn't until the area is searched a second (or even third) time that they find the remains. I don't think foul play was involved. I think this is a case of a very troubled young woman who was drunk and panicked, ran into the woods, got lost and died of eposure. Drunk people especially are at risk of dying in this way because the alcohol dulls their senses, makes them more likely to make very poor decisions on impulse, and hampers their coordination and thinking. It happens all the time. It's a very sad story. Shame that Maura never got the chance to get her shit together and put her life back on the right track. I hope her remains are found soon and her family can finally begin to mourn and put this whole sad chapter behind them.
Samantha Fee I would agree there is a possibility she died of exposure but I think there were scent dogs used to track her and they lost her scent on the highway not the forest. I saw that somewhere, maybe the Disappeared episode? So there is a possibility someone took her. Edited to add : Did that person wanted to help her or harm her? Who knows?
Thank you so much for posting this. Same as my thoughts exactly. Occam's razor / stats on suicide versus abduction etc and the evidence presented thus far strongly support this hypothesis. Alternative is she is heading to old family vacation spot with plans of suicide (nostalgic location symbolizing happier times). She crashes car and decides to end her life there in the forest. I would bet money on this not being foul play.
Samantha Fee , good logical reasoning EXCEPT :The dogs lose her scent right down the road in middle of the road. (car ride from grim reaper ) plus she seemed to smart to get her self in a hyperthermia position
Lore Muhler I agree she was too smart-she was after all a nursing student and would have known what to do in that situation to avoid hypothermia. Also I wonder if she went into the woods why there were no footprints leading away from the scene. And why the dogs didn’t track her into the woods. I think if she did end up in the woods she probably used her long distance track running skills to run a ways down the road and then went into the woods. But the dogs I think would have tracked her scent further in that case. My personal theory is she got into another car and no one happened to see it pull up at the time. Or she had an accomplice parked ahead in the opposite direction butch atwood’s bus came from. But in that case the roads must’ve been clear of snow otherwise there’d be footprints leading down the road in the fresh snow. It would have had to be perfect for her to crash her car and have someone waiting to pick her up planned out that way.
Why don't you look into the first responding cop? He was out of contact for 2 hours after this. Can we for sure know that he never met Maura, at the car or walking away from it. To be honest he is the only person who would have had the time and opportunity to abduct her among the persons we know of excluding Butch Atwood. (who I don't think is guilty of anything in this case) That would also explain the total silence on this case from the police. If your prime suspect is an policeman you don't want anything to get out unless you can 100% prove it. Anyway I think its worth looking into.
umm i am a smoker and the FIRST THING I'D DO after an accident is LIGHT UP !!! absolutely bar none ... I've been a smoker for 15+ yrs and i can tell you the triggers for smoking are when you are tense , in a stressful situation , as well as when you are relaxing . There is never a bad time to light up , unfortunately in my humble opinion .
LOL, hearing a non-smoker give such a confident opinion about how a smoker wouldn't light up after a car accident is absurd. I am a smoker it is hard for me to imagine NOT needing a cigarette in a tense situation or after a nerve-racking experience. If you are a smoker, a cig is the first thing you reach for in order to calm your nerves. Other than that nonsense, this might be one of the most intriguing podcasts I have ever listened to and I have been recommending it to several people. Great job fellas
We have a 1996 Saturn that is still on the road and driven daily. These Saturns have little red alert lights that are on constantly if one has engine issues and after an accident one or more of these alert lights would have definitely been on. This might account for the "cigarette".
So many young women have been "in the wrong place at the wrong time". You don't need to be a serial killer to successfully commit a murder (albeit possibly without stetting out to) and get away with it for years. It really isn't an "incredible coincidence" at all. Someone who is, maybe, drunk and upset is FAR more vulnerable and far less guarded. To think that there was someone planning this is the silly assumption - as in so many cases, this is most logically a crime of the moment - a dark night, a vulnerable girl and the chance for sex - which then all goes horribly wrong. Its really not a stretch of the imagination at all. I fear this is a crime like so many others...
I agree this is the most likely scenario yet there is no body. However this wouldn't be the first time a body disappears forever. It's a strange coincidence though.
When things go wrong you can look back and see how everything was in place to have that happen, almost like it was meant to be. It's horrible yet looking at a different yet similar situation it is possible that one wrong thing leads to another wrong thing and boom you're smack dab in the middle of trouble. That's usually how it happens. Usually you get to go back and see how everything fit perfectly to bring you to that terrible place and time. Only with Maura we are the ones seeing how it all played out!
I agree this is the most logical Occams Razor the most logical answer is the best. She wrecked her car was afraid she'd get arrested & took her things & took off walking someone offered her a ride she gets in & is abducted assaulted & killed . All these conspiracy theories don't make sense. People love a conspiracy.
Having been a smoker... when I reached the top of a mountain, finished a final exam, or was part of a traumatic event, I'd reach for a smoke and suck it down while processing what I just experienced... Everyone is different, but I could imagine lighting up after a car accident!
Oh my god of course she would light up a cigarette after the accident if she smoked and was alone. Getting into another accident when she's trying to get away from her problems? Jesus Christ, that would be a reason for a cigarette. That said, eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate.
Regarding whether or not a smoker would think to smoke a cigarette right after an accident. ABSOLUTELY 100% A smoker would want a cigarette right after being in an accident. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the call said something like she could see a man in the car smoking a cigarette while there was a flurry of activity by the trunk. I have seen some comments make something of the supposed smoker just sitting there smoking and not helping Maura. What could have the smoker guy really helped her with at that point? When you get into a car accident and your car gets totaled there's really not anything you can do at that point but wait for help. If Maura was looking for something in the trunk, theres really not any reason for the guy to be up and out of the car with her. In general, the witness account that there was a man smoking in the car just feels too specific for it not to be at least what that witness THINKS she originally saw. As you guys pointed out, its possible that she maybe had a different opinion later on regarding what she saw but I do think that at the beginning she would be pretty confident that her report of seeing a man smoking a cigarette was the truth. How this all fits into the grand scheme of things? I dont know but just thought I would touch on that because I definitely dont think it would be wise to rule out a smoker in the car because it doesn't seem like an appropriate time to have a cigarette when on the contrary I believe in a stressful situation such as an accident would be an ideal time to have a cigarette to most smokers including myself.
so confused. why is the rag in the tailpipe being questioned again. obviously it is a question as to why it was there, but why speculate if a stranger did it to kidnap her when her father brought it up himself before even being asked. It's something odd indeed but I feel like it's just bringing in yet another theory and clouding this case even more when the only question is why the father knew about it, possibly told her to put it there etc., and what if anything it could have to do with her disappearance. Also as far as not needing a social security number sure she can get a temporary position getting paid cash but looking term and staying in the same place....I doubt that.
You straight up wrong about people not wanting a ciggies after an accident. When I was 18 I was in my friends car getting a lift to school when we got in a car wreck and the first thing the lady in the other car that hit us asked if we had a light so she could light up
Mr. Renner - did you ever consider Maura Murray was being blackmailed by somebody? That fits the narrative wonderfully, plus answers a plethora of unanswered questions.
My theory; The drunk cop hears it on the scanner. Fly's around the curb. Either strikes Maura or the car or both. Realizes he is in deep trouble. Gets rid of the witness to it all.
I question whether she got into a passing vehicle to avoid the confrontation by the police with possibly drinking. Maybe this person convinced her that he lived close by and could come back later and get her things.She may not normally have gotten in a car by a stranger but felt pressure by what could happen to her future plans with a DUI. She may have thought this was the last attempt to get out of the situation. I think whoever took her, he either seemed non threatening at the time or maybe she even knew him casually. Perhaps she had ran into him on her journey before the actual crash, like a restaurant etc. I do unfortunately believe she met with foul play. I pray for answers for her family. I think the answers lie within a 15 mile radius of the crash site.
You guys absolutely rock! The only dual guy podcast with no irritating speech patterns /lingo quirks /pauses / competitions (talking over one another)/annoying interruptions and aimless or obscure tangents you’re both right on task! Thank you 🙏
Just for the record : I am a smoker myself and when I was Maura's age I would lit up a cig in moments of nervousness and stress. An accident would have been one of those stressful moments for me. Idk, just saying.
in reference to the broad theory that she planned this, as a way of disappearing... it's mentioned in either this or a previous podcast that she withdrew roughly $300 from her bank account. that's not going to last long, especially after she buys alcohol and gas that day. She'd have money for no more than 3 days of a hotel and food. If she was planning on disappearing, I think the only way it could have actually worked this well is if she had been planning it quite a while in advance. she would probably have a large amount of cash saved from previous withdrawals. if anything, I think the events of the previous few days would have moved up her plan to disappear, not spawned the plan. has any research been done into perhaps a pattern of previous cash withdrawals, or perhaps discussions with others that might hint at a final or more permanent destination?
I honestly think everyone is making too much out of her movements before she disappeared. If I wasn't here, someone could look at all my movements yesterday and wonder why I did everything I did, which had no ulterior motives or were suspicious at all, but I'm sure someone would say, "why did she stop at her mom's on the way to pick her son up at school?" I didn't tell anyone I had a dish of hers that she gave me leftovers in and I dropped it off, simple as that. My mom doesn't know I stopped because I haven't told her yet and my husband and son don't know. It's just things like that. My guess is she hit that guy, was distraught, told her dad, he helped her attempt to get a new car, she left, was drinking while driving and either crashed her car because of that or on purpose (or just made it look like she hit the tree or snowbank) to cover up hitting the other guy. She didn't want to get busted for drunk driving. left the car, took off, got lost and froze in the woods.
I agree. Yes people look so hard they start seeing things. And drunken dispatch from the car, trying to go across off road terrain, falling down / hitting head / hypothermia - it's my favourite theory.
They searched a large area around the crash site with cadaver dogs several weeks after the accident. There were no hits. She couldn’t have gotten far but they searched allll around that area.
@@pacisle3232 There has been a numerous cases where the missing person (or their remains) was found within 1 mile radius from where they were last seen - after decades and in spite of extensive searches. So it would not surprise me a lot if this would also happen here.
She had a wreck, She was drunk and desperate to get out of there, a guy pulls up on a drunk, desperate attractive young woman, he gives her a lift, he tries to have sex, she declined, he forced her, he panicked, he killed her and done away with the body. The only question is who he is
In a lot of ways, I think this episode is where the rubber meets the road. One of the things I find so interesting about this case is that virtually every scenario seems to be just as likely... or unlikely. I get what these guys are trying to say when they ask, "What are the chances that she just so happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and there was a person who was able to grab her right at the right moment?" This is a good question, but the problem is that it over looks the unfortunate reality that this type of stuff happens a lot. I mean, really, any time someone is a victim of a serial killer, we could ask, "What were the odds?" Chances are, the odds are very low. But yet, people are still victims of homicide every single day. Then, what are the odds that she did succumb to the elements not far from where she was last seen, but just simply hasn't been found? Well, I do realize that the area was extensively searched... then again, I also know that this type of thing happens as well. As for the eye-witness discrepancies, such as the first witness believing she saw a man smoking in the car... remember, that it was most likely dark, and from a distance, Maura might have been mistaken for a guy, especially if she had her hair up, or the person didn't really get that good of a visual. Note that the bus driver never mentioned seeing anyone else. As for the time it took for her to disappear... it might not be that surprising. If it was an abduction, then remember, a lot of abductions happen very quickly. And because people don't tend to think, "I had better keep looking outside of my window to see if I see anything of interest, because this person could end up being a missing person", it isn't that surprising that no one saw (and like I said, being February and close to 7:30 pm, it was most likely dark). Besides, I know I don't just sit at my front window looking out for interesting activity. In fact, something could be happening right now in front of my house and I wouldn't have a clue. I'm sure, now that Maura is a high-profile missing person, the residents there are kicking themselves for not keeping a better eye on her. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do about that now. Also, one thing I must mention is that people who follow this case, like these guys on the Podcasts, James Renner, myself, etc... for us, we know what Maura looks like (at least in 2004) because we're obsessed with this case. We're thinking of this case daily and hoping that something new or interesting will be revealed that sheds light on the case. Compared to the population of the U.S. or Canada... or the world, we're a very very very small bunch. If Maura is still alive, she could be living life, being seen by people, and they have absolutely no clue who she is. And especially not if she looks different than she did back then. In fact, I'd be willing to bet $100 that if I went up to 10 random people at my work and asked them if they know who Maura Murray is, that all 10 would say, "Who is that?" Remember, also that sometimes people are hard to recognize from photos. For some reason, with their movements, mannerisms, etc, they tend to be hard to tell from photos. I'm sure we've all known people who look better, worse, or simply different in their photos. This could also be why the bus driver didn't recognize Maura from a photo at first. With that said, I've been following this case for a little over a year now. And before a year ago, I could have walked right up to Maura, and not even realized who she was. And I'm someone who is interested in true crime, but before a year ago, this one just sort of fell through the cracks for me. So it's not hard for me to understand how someone, who isn't even interested with true crime in general, wouldn't recognize her even if she looked exactly the way she did back in 2004.
I love how you say it was February at almost 730 at night and MOST LIKELY DARK no it was February almost 730 and it WAS dark. Even with a street light it is still going to be dark
@@k.c9698 Ok, I was saying that because I didn't know if there were street lights, or property lights, etc... but I don't think it really detracts from the rest of my post. It being dark just means it was that much easier for her to disappear without anyone noticing.
No, the passenger-side airbag is supposed to be disabled when the seat is unoccupied or holding a briefcase or something similar. In fact, the airbag may not deploy even if a small adult is sitting in the front passenger seat.
For gods sake. You both don't smoke yet you think you know how a smoker would react after an accident. If it was a passenger maybe they were shaken up and were trying to steady their nerves . Maura had already got out the car . People react to stressful situations in different ways. I know I'm a smoker. Also if there was a passenger in the car why didn't the bus driver see them ?
**On the cigarette thing...if it were in the car, you would smell it. Cigarette smoke REEKS. So, I would think a police officer or anyone else would have been able to pick up on that distinctive scent when checking out the scene.
I have the problem with that woman from that motel/hostel the 3 minutes call was placed to. I saw her on Disappeared, and she looks in my eyes as someone lying, being sure that nobody will find out. She said she didn't remember anything, and she wished she could help. But she looks to me as if she hides something. Like she helped her disappear.
They are really jumping to a lot of conclusions in these podcasts. I'm new to this story but the idea that she has a job at a bar in Canada and is living off the grid for 15 years with absolutely no factual evidence to back that up is quite a stretch.There isn't even a solid motive for the "runaway" narrative. The facts are that she was prone to accidents and making poor decisions but in the grand scheme of things, that's a lot of young adults. I haven't researched this enough to draw any real conclusions of my own but if I had to guess say she is most likely deceased. If you look at the facts, her pattern of behavior would make it nearly impossible for her to obtain and maintain a completely new life without detection. She was prone too poor decision making and questionable judgement. A 21 year old with no resources and that pattern of behavior does not turn into Jason Bourne. At some point shed need a SSI, especially if she was going to Canada. Its just not a likely scenario given her circumstances.
I know of a 20 something year old that was a Stripper in Toronto and without a Visa or whatever made it to California and became a Psychic to the Stars. How the heck do you explain that? Oh and she was drinking and dropping acid too. Married a well-off Man that she loved and had Children. That's the true life story of Sloan Bella!! Sooo, yes you can do it. Things can turn out for good just like they can line up for bad to happen. I've had many experiences that very few others have had, yet they really did happen to me even if it was a one in a million type chance of it.
Any and all smokers would’ve smoked a cig at that opportunity man or woman. I haven’t smoked in over 20 years but, I still dream of smoking cigs. That’s a strange and powerful addiction. I recall wanting a cigarette with and for practically every single new action let alone events. After a shower... have a smoke. Eat a meal... smoke. Have a coffee.... great time to smoke. Go for a drive.... Smokey Smokey. Sex... smoke. Working hard if able to integrate it.... smoke. Unable?... take a much deserved smoke break. When you’re a smoker... you tend to spend more time either thinking about having a smoke or smoking at all your addicted brain and body nicotine receptor sites’ suggested signaling shots from your brain to... your mind... I just wanted to make that tiny detail clear to you guys since you both seem smart enough to have avoided the pathetic enslavement that is the addiction to nicotine products. I do not believe there was a man smoking in the car but, it would sort of be plausible that someone who maybe was blackmailing or terrorizing her (her being upset and implying her sister had upset her could maybe be someone playing sick games to make her feel threatened in some way. Could he have been with her and caused her two accidents. Following her and stalking her on both occasions. When he caused the second one, he gets in the car and tells her what he wants her to do in the next few minutes as he has a cigarette. Knowing police response times he gets out after telling her this is what she’s going to do... with no time to make a level decision and her possibly and likely knowing her stalker, she sees it as preferable to a DUI and legal fallout. She sees it as not life threatening danger. She sees it as a way out. It’s spaghetti at the wall. I honestly have no idea. I’m not staying this as fact. I do wonder what art was on the wall at the dorm in Amherst? We’re any of these works Maura’s own art? If so, did she remove all the art to hide a possible clue within her own art. Her favorite film was Wes Anderson’s “Bottle Rocket”. This is a comedy and also a weird Wes Anderson film that involves crazy simple crime sprees and a 75 year plan by a main character which involves getaway drivers and plans. Perhaps it’s a stretch to look into this and admittedly you can make anything from Shrek to the Deerhunter fit any narrative of you try hard enough and work backwards from your conclusions. I do wonder about any art she was possibly creating on her own. It could indicate feeling and psychology within. Why remove the art? It has been a detail that has gotten many people to falsely assume she emptied her entire dorm when apparently that was far from the truth of things. It is somewhat of an easy leap though so... as so many pieces tend to, this detail perplexes and muddies many waters as to what happened to Maura Murray.
I love this podcast and I love you guys, you have devoted so much time and energy to this case and, regardless of people agreeing with you, or being dismissive of you, your efforts are admiral. I have a weird question that popped into mind when you mentioned both airbags deployed. I can't remember if cars back in the 90s (I believe her Saturn was a 90-something model) had the feature that they do now where whether or not a person is sitting in the passenger seat, the airbag system detects weight. As an example, whether I place my handbag on the front seat, a single bag of groceries, one of my son's backpacks, or, one of my sons, the airbag safety feature identifies something (I'm guessing of a certain weight or more) as being on the seat. There is a button looking indicator indicating that the airbag for the passenger seat is on. I'm guessing that if nothing is detected, the airbag wouldn't be "active". Again, my car is a 2012, not a car made in the 90s, so I'm just throwing this out there. If cars back then, particularly the year, make and model that Maura was driving had this same feature or something comparable, did the passenger airbag deploy because it detected someone in the seat (or something of a certain weight or more). Did the car contents report indicate the location of where her personal affects were (textbooks, bookbag, etc)? Thanks :-)
Really enjoying the podcast although I have to say, it seems to be growing increasingly speculative each week. This podcast is part fact, part rumour, innuendo and imagination, which really reflects the almost urban-myth type proportions of this case thanks to the internet and web sleuthing. If I disappeared tomorrow, it would be very easy to read far too deeply into my (innocent) actions over the past week, viewing them in a sinister light and interpreting them to be far more mysterious than what they really are. Really. Think about it. Look at your own life over the past week, then imagine how some of your actions could be viewed in light of your disappearance. For example, I think Maura mentioned in an email to her friend that she was going to see a show because….well…she wanted to tell her friend she was going to see a show. I think she returned a lab coat because...she had borrowed somebody’s lab coat and thought to give it back. I do not think Maura was running away to start a new life. I think she wanted to get away for a little while (not permanently), had an accident, left the scene of the accident in an attempt to conceal her drink driving and either died from exposure in the forest or was picked up by a passing stranger and murdered. The latter is far more believable than the likelihood of a mentally unstable 21 year old with a drinking problem successfully hiding out in Canada all these years. And to address what was discussed in this episode, there are instances of people being in the wrong place at the wrong time and falling victim to opportunistic killers ALL the time. Unfortunately, I think that is what happened here. And there is really nothing much more to it.
I literally just sent in an email with this exact point. My god, if we tore apart every detail of my life right now, you'd think it was way more mysterious than it is. We're also not talking about how *incredibly* difficult it is to disappear intentionally with no trace at all for eleven years. I think it's most likely she crashed her car, set off on foot, and was lost or abducted. That said, I'm fascinated with this case.
+Bianca Armendy Yeah it's interesting that they mentioned Occam's Razor in the last podcast and then started speculating about whether or not she's in Canada. Is it possible? Sure. But I think you're right; I think the most likely explanation is she stumbled off into the woods and died of exposure from the cold. No foul play, just really unfortunate circumstances.
+Bianca Armendy I agree with you, but I do think there is a chance for something sketchier to be going on than just Maura dying of exposure in the woods. The biggest issues to me are the weird phone call/"my sister" thing, and the way that her dad keeps changing his story... I think he knows something.
As I have gotten more information I have gotten less and less suspicious of the dad. I am getting increasingly suspicious of the police department. I really don't think she just ran into the woods to die. Doesn't sound like something that a 21-year-old would do when faced with owning up to her mistakes. She doesn't really seem to be that much of a perfectionist to me. But then again, what do I know!
+Bianca Armendy I agree with you, and am leaning towards murder. I don't understand if she died of exposure why the body hasn't been found. I think it hasn't been found because somebody didn't want it found. She is more than likely buried deep out in the woods up there. There was another case (maybe more) of a young, white girl disappearing leaving nothing but an abandoned car behind. I think her name was Brianna Maitland but I could be wrong. It occurred less than 100 miles from the crash site of Maura's.
She just didn’t disappear on purpose imo How man experienced criminals with significant resources, experience in disappearing and connections to with people to help that’ll keep their mouths shut
I'm very new to this case sorry if my questions are already answered but here are some questions ideas for you. Oh and I'm loving the story so far Why would the father let her drive his car after drinking and not wake up when she came in the room? Why not just drive the hour / half home after dinner instead of staying? I heard him say in an interview they always looked for a pub to have dinner in. Maybe he was drunk also. That would explain the poor decisions, sleeping through someone's phone call and why he didn't go home after dinner. Has anyone checked on that? I spun out really bad once when driving too fast in rainy conditions and I was a casual smoker I smoked right after to calm down to finish the drive home. Also if it was cold and she opened her door could the warm breath would hit the cold air. You know that saying "You can see your own breath" Maybe that was why she thought it was smoke and when realized oh it is 40 degrees she dropped the smoking idea. Also no Social Security Number there are about what 10 million illegal aliens living in the USA right now they manage to survive without a SSN she could also. In the 1990ies air bags weren't as good as they were now. They would go off without anyone in the seat so 2 going off isn't the smoking gun it would be today
I've been so obsessed with this case as of late......I'm probably late in the game.....but if she frize....or ran into woods or even walked to a car wouldn't there have been footprints?!?!? it's all so baffling......if she froze in the woods or drowned or died she WOULD HAVE been found by now!!!!!!!! SOME TRACE would have been found BY NOW!!!!!!! I mean it is SO WEIRD...... EVERYTHING about this mystery.......I just wish there was SOME solid answers......
Artist Fox YES omg this is what gets me too-the people who think she ran into the woods tend to forget about this part. The only thing that would lead to no footprints is if it wasn’t fresh snow and she got into another car on the roadway, that maybe was salted or covered in ice but not snow. She didn’t run into the woods.
Unless she ran a few miles up the road then ran into the woods-but the dogs didn’t track her scent that far. She either was abducted by someone who lived close by or got into a car.
a smoker, a true smoker, needs no reason to smoke.... like anyone with an addiction. the sun is up, think I'll smoke. it's Friday think I'll smoke. there is oxygen today, think I'll smoke. that being said a stressful incident with any addiction is an excuse and that addiction physically takes hold of you and you do it. so wreck equals smoking immediately afterwards. you all clearly have never been addicted to anything which is a really good thing. though it makes you two sound a little ignorant about the "I doubt you'd immediately think of smoking after an accident" or whatever you two said that in return led you both to believe that it was prolly a reflection... you both have done a fantastic job. just thought I'd point out about the cigarette.....
I didn’t know who Maura Murray was until the Oxygen series came out last year. I think it’s perfectly reasonable theory that in a small town, maybe with an older population, she could hide. Not to mention, a lot of people don’t pay attention to their bartender. Think about it, can you picture the bartender that served you last?
Everyone is always focusing on Butch Atwood (the bus driver) and yet no one talks about the The Westman's in the white house right there pretty much across the road from the accident. I am not saying they did any harm, but weird that they called the crash in and yet what they went back to dinner? No, you would be looking out your window, I don't care who you are. Was there some weird altercation with the first officer to arrive? If Maura was intoxicated and put up a fight with the first responder. We still don't know if Cecil Smith or the state trooper John Monoghan showed up first. I also remember a interview years later from a EMS man who was on the scene of the accident after and he said that "everything about the accident was weird." and said " If she had just lost control of the car coming around the corner, she would of impacted the North side of the curve, which she didn't, she clipped the corner. She sheared the snowbank clear off and continued to the other side, where it turned her car around."
+Linus Zims Have you seen the corner she went off? There are arrow signs indicating caution cause of the very hard sharp turn. I'm from the area and you usually see these on corners that cause people to go off the road often. I'm sure this isn't the first crash they have seen on that corner and probably watched until they saw the driver ok and went back to dinner.
I believe she planned to disappear. The car crash was not part of the plan. I do believe she was successful in her disappearance but not for long. There is no way she could be successful for so long. She would have surfaced by now. I think she died many years ago. As for her escaping to Canada and getting a job their hiring practices are alot more strict than America's. They don't or rarely higher under the table. I know people who have lived in Canada for many years .They went to Canada from the U.S. tey had to go through the whole green card process. They had/have to show why they are there in writing. For how long and had to prove the residence as well. They had to verify this info twice a year. And if ANYTHING changed they had/have to notify immigration and show proof why and how. Canada is NOT like the U.S. they DO NOT let anyone and everyone in their country. Their laws are very strict. To be come an official citizen of Canada it took 5 years or more. I highly doubt she {Maura} was able to get a job at a bar under the table just because she was a cute college girl. p..s and YES you MUST have an SS Card to find gainful employment in Canada no matter how cute you are.
Thanks for putting this info out there. I never thought to look at the actual logistics of running away to Canada. Your friends who did this - was it pre- or post-9/11? Thank you for posting this!
Oh you're absolutely wrong about smoking a cigarette first thing. Not only are you not a smoker but you must not associate much with anyone that is. The very first thing any smoker is going to do is light up a cigarette. Your friend panicking has nothing to do with smoking a cigarette and it's not going to interfere with the panic in fact a cigarette is going to be used to reduce panic mode at this point. Why comment you wouldn't do it and you're not even a smoker. Smoking is like second nature to us smokers. Smoking goes hand and hand with everything we do. Stress about something...smoke a cigarette, after meals/food....smoke a cigarette, after sex...cigarette...driving...cigarette....bored....cigarette. You are right though it's not something we would even consider after a car accident it's something that we would automatically do without even thinking about it. There would be no hmmmm should I smoke a cigarette it would just happen no questions asked. Ughhh this podcast. It gets a 1.5 stars out of 5 from me. Too bias with uneducated, unsupported information and opinions to be considered credible. Definitely this is just for entertainment purposes and all the people refusing to talk to you guys are smart. The entire family did an interview with reputable networks you can barley get someone who knows someone who knows someone to entertain these things does that not shed light on anything for you? Also these podcasts have been up for 5 years and this one is at 26,000 views thats it in 5 years, that's it! Smokers, smoke! After an accident you're just sitting there you're not being rushed wtf are you even talking about. But yes sometimes you do want to enjoy it, sometimes like after a car accident you wouldn't necessarily enjoy it you would need it to calm you and sitting in a car is definitely not a time you're rushing to smoke. Why on earth would you even assume that in that moment they would be rushed? ....now I need a cigarette! 🚬
I feel like if there was a smoker in the car or any second person in or around the car, the bus driver would've seen them. Definitely a good point that it's weird whoever the "smoker" was wouldn't be helping Maura and would just be sitting there smoking.
The abduction theory is very unlikely if you ask me due to the remoteness of the area. I've spent time in New Hampshire and there just aren't a lot of people. The odds that someone other than the bus driver drove by are probably low let alone someone who is a murderer or something. However, a witness originally said that she saw someone with her and there was an argument or something near the trunk of the car. And you definitely would smoke a cigarette after an accident.
How come there is no mention of the phone call that came from her phone after her disappearance. I was to her boyfriend but she never said anything, she was just breathing hard during the call. I saw it on the Disappeared episode.
Oh yeah that's right, there was a call to Billy and all he heard was whimpering and breathing. Too bad it doesn't help us, was she alone and dying or being kidnapped ? Which way do we go ?
I am only 15 minutes in on the 5th episode of this podcast, so this might end up being addressed, but on a Disappeared episode that I saw on the ID channel, Maura's boyfriend, boyfriend's mom, and Maura's dad, and the narrators/investigators I believe if I remember correctly, talked about a voice mail that Maura left on her boyfriend's phone AFTER she disappeared that sounded like a girl whimpering and shivering and then cut off. Just wondered if anybody else had any information on that?
About the 1st call from the lady called Faith..."she said she saw a man in the car smoking a cigarette"...I think she just mistook Maura who is 5'7'' for being a guy. She didn't say she saw people in the car and one of them was smoking. It would be interesting if someone contacted her and asked her if she saw more than one person in the car. I don't understand why Lance and Tim automatically assume she is talking about seeing two people. IF someone had been smoking in the car there would have been cigarette ash in the ash tray or somewhere inside or outside the car. Has this been checked on? I really like the podcast because it brings out a lot of interesting thoughts but when you have statements with a persons name & questions it would be great if someone could talk to the person to clarify. The lady said later she wasn't sure if the person was smoking. She still didn't mention more than one person being there. It seems like that would have been something significant that the police would have asked about.
Y'all aren't smokers....believe me, as a 30+ year smoker, the first thing any heavy smoker would do after an accident is light a cigarette, maybe not sit and contemplate things, but I(and, I'm sure, most heavy smokers)would be smoking very soon after an accident.
I realize I'm late to the party...but people can do all sorts of things to change their appearance, I mean, all you have to do is watch facebook videos to see how people can completely transform their appearance. Especially women. And in a small town where nobody knows you, you wouldn't have to work too hard to get a job, secure a cheap room, lay low, and eventually blend in. If she wanted to stage a disappearance, in 2004, it wouldn't have been impossible.
Now a random person at the gas station could have put the rag in her tailpipe and her dad must be a psychic then. How'd he know it was there in that case. Sheesh it's so frustrating listening to these guys. They just say anything that works for that moment and don't consider any other factors worst part is they have it on TH-cam for the world in a world where they've even discussed how the telephone game works and giving no consideration to that before posting these videos. And it's funny they continue to say they're going to hold off on theories and want everyone else too do the same but everything they say is just their theory some with absolutely no evidence to support it or evidence that actually contradicts it.
I don't mean to sound stupid but when you get into an accident is it normal for the airbags on both sides of the car to go off? I thought that they only went off if there was a person sitting in the seat? Or is this something that is in newer cars because they have the weight sensor so they know if you have your seatbelt on and stuff like that?
The guys are presuming precision in the timeline. and there being a guy smoking with her seems unlikely. Why be riding with her when he could potentially be seen with her and then hide? And then, where did he go? Now you got two missing people. No. Been many cases of people appearing coherent in the aftermath of a car crash only to suddenly act dazed, confused, wander away.
trailmarker #6 yeah I agree with you. Plus there were no footprints in the snow and the dogs didn’t track anything away from the site. Doesn’t add up. I keep going back to the no footprints things as important.
I lean towards her having a friend drive their car behind her because they planned to help her disappear, and that person picked her up after the accident since she was panicked about getting in trouble. I feel like if she'd walked off and died of hypothermia, her body would have been found by now. I mean, I can't see her getting super far... And I feel like an abduction would have been heard by someone, especially the woman who called 911 about the accident. I also feel like someone trying to calmly talk her into letting them give her a ride would have been seen as well. It would have taken several minutes. But a friend could very quickly just pull up and have her jump in. Her packing up her belongings could be because she was planning on completing suicide, but it also could have been done because she decided to run off and didn't wanna leave tons of stuff for family to have to pack up. Obviously I could be totally off. That's just what I tend to think happened.
And in reference to the rag in the tail pipe... If you believe the theory that an opportunistic killer happened upon her at the gas station and stuffed a rag in her tail pipe to stall her or effect her in some way, why does her father so quickly come forward with the claim that he told her to do this? You'd have to believe that not only did this killer happen to pick this particular girl on this particular day after she's set herself up to disappear at least for a week (per the emails she sent to professors), but that said killer is also following her, unnoticed, long enough for her to happen to break down in a fairly secluded area because of something from old wives tale her father heard and had her do.
If someone other than Maura put the rag in the pipe why would her dad have mentioned it and said he told her to do it, or even have known there was a rag in the pipe?
Ok, so I know I'm years behind and this comment has prob been made by many, but arghhhh I have to vent it. Her dad admitted he told her to put the rag in the tailpipe so why all the discussion about a killer putting it in there when she stopped for gas. And, you keep saying what are the odds a serial killer would pick a victim, at random with no planning, whose life is a mess ( my paraphrasing). History has shown many serial killers have chosen distracted women, weak women and have done it not because that planned it out but rather because the opportunity presented its self. Sorry had to comment because yelling at my computer wasn't cutting it.
ehhhh. I've worked at small town bars. They still want ID. I find it implausible that she would make it that far without money. To set up a new life without money, as a 21 year old with a penchant for so much trouble? ?? She got in trouble so much in that one or two year period, and then nothing?
yeah, I live in a township of less than 500 ppl, it doesn't make any difference ID wise. even family owned places. they have to file taxes, and tax your wages, and in order to do that, during the hiring process you must present two forms of valid ID, and typically one of them must verify your ssn. for example, drivers license and social security card, or social security card and birth certificate. ive never worked anywhere that didn't require 2 ID documents.
Yeah, I totally agree. I think the podcasters here are overestimating how much women can get away with based on looks and charm. Get out of a traffic ticket? Maybe, sure. But not getting a bartending job. And talk about a job where you would be seen by lots of people all the time!
An important aspect of this case, any case really to be honest, is the dichotomy of “possible” versus “likely.” Is it possible Maura could have wanted to disappear? Yes. Is it the most statistically likely? Probably not. How many people a year, even in a span of five or ten years, completely abandon their life and start anew especially at 21 years old? Surely there’s no statistic because these people want to remain hidden, but statistically how many of these people are eventually found out that we can draw a conclusion from? You could probably count them on your fingers. Somebody who’s maybe 30 or 40 who has a seedy history, in my opinion, would probably be the most likely candidate for wanting to fake their own death or disappearance to escape some sort of punishment, and although Maura has clearly gotten into some trouble in the past, we don’t know any history of major crime or even trauma in Maura’s life to cause her to run away. Her father is kind of right, she had lots of things to live for. By most accounts her and her boyfriend had a fairly good relationship, her family had its problems like any family but there’s no reason to suspect any sort of massive cover up or abuse that would make Maura never want to see them again, and this is after fourteen years time when any sort of scandal has had plenty of time to come to a head. Honestly? Everybody knows a Maura. I went to school with a bunch of girls like Maura and I even see a bit of her in myself. She’s smart, but she’s not *smart.* she can be a west pointer and a successful student but honestly to me it looks like she simply lacks common sense and acts on impulse. It seems to me like Maura liked the party scene, i think that after her drunk driving accident and (IMO) quite possible hit and run on campus she wanted to get away, she wanted another party to take her mind off things, but not forever as we clearly saw she was trying to look for a hotel or condo in Stowe. Coupled with the alcohol, buying gas, taking money out of the ATM, not telling anybody where she’s going, messaging her professors she’d be gone due to family emergency, It sounds to me like she was going somewhere to throw a party without her parents knowing, as I’m sure at this time after Maura’s previous incidents and erratic behavior her parents were probably checking her whereabouts and her bank balance constantly. She was constantly spending money and seemed to be planning for future events, if she wanted to take her own life, why go so far? Why get a hotel or condo if you’re just going to go die in the mountains? I could understand maybe she planned to kill herself in the hotel but in that case, why not do it at a hotel closer to Amherst, why go three hours away? One theory I clearly can’t get on board with is suicide even though it’s probably statistically the most likely answer. Given the evidence, is it possible? Yes. Is it the most likely compared to accounts of the scene of the crash and the fact that fourteen years later there’s still no body? Probably not.
I 100% agree with this outlook. Our minds are wired to fill in the blanks when we don't have all the information which is why a lot of this speculation is turning into elaborate conspiracy theories. Her pattern of behavior (prone to accidents, poor decision making, impulsive nature), clear lack of resources (no money, shitty car) , and age (21) make it highly unlikely that Maura conspired this master plan to go off grid and maintain a brand new life for 15 years. I don't know enough to draw any conclusions but it seems far more plausible that she made a last minute trip out of town (for whatever reason), got into yet another accident and ended up the victim of something very unfortunate. Whether that be a predator or something less ominous, it seems like there isn't enough information to support a concrete conclusion so far.
So if her fate is victim of opportunistic killer, why include the rag in the tailpipe in the scenario when it's already been established that her father did that? I think she was found asleep in the woods, she probably passed out after drinking all that booze.....
@@MissingCSM Right, sorry, that is what I meant. But in these stranger abduction theories there was mention of someone following her and putting the rag in there to cause an accident. Anyway, I'm sure there is a log more.....I do have like 100 episodes to go.
Abduction at crash site seems highly unlikely; next to homes with direct line of sight, not to mention the passing vehicles. . also, abducting this girl would not be an easy task:5 ft 7 a solid 120 pound athlete not to mention army/west point basic training. She also could have locked car doors from perpetrator. 27 minutes...be on look out for female 5 foot 7 on foot, " she was being pursued" leaving the scene of accident , this bother's me. during this phase, she was not endangered as missing, "she was being pursued".
Why would she leave the accident to "sober up" and take a bottle of alcohol with her? Also, she was keen on stealing things, maybe she stole an ID from another student or was given one by a friend? I grew up in a small town in Northern California, in the 70's this local couple kidnapped a hitchhiker and kept her locked in their basement and in a box under their bed for like 10 years and nobody knew. The woman had Stockholm syndrome and eventually she was working outside the home and coming back to them every night, her name was Colleen Stan. This couple would drive around looking for an opportunity to kidnapped someone (they even built this box for the car to lock the victims head in ), their are some F***ed up people in this world.
If there was some kind of conspiracy to disappear shared with friends, the odds that someone would talk and the truth would out is almost 100% especially after this period of time.
He'll I watched a TH-cam video of this guy calling brain gratata guys phone until he sent him to voicemail then entered something then changed it to what he wanted and it was hilarious
The missing Kahlua bottle is very interesting. Regarding that bottle being used as a weapon, doesn't Kahlua only use plastic bottles for their product? If so, that wouldn't be the best weapon and if she tossed it in the area where she had the accident someone should have found it by now.
I could see confusing a red light in the car, like from a phone, for a cigarette, but it's definitely strange that the 911 caller specifically said she saw a MAN smoking a cigarette. It's odd... But if there was a guy with her, that would mean that 2 people vanished. I feel like that makes less sense. Edited to add: Vanished ON FOOT. If a man drove up and picked her up, that would make sense. But a man being in the car when the accident happened, and the 2 of them disappearing on foot, doesn't make much sense...
I would like to question her drinking and how much her father knew about her drinking, also why did a pretty girl with everything going for her drink, she was a runner, by looking at her pictures it looks like she enjoyed life, she enjoyed school, there wasn't much upset in her life and childhood, she was well loved and still is, she liked art, she looks very confident, her smile is amazing and lights up her cheeks, she has a sense of humour, what a woman.. I understand partying for a young lady, I'm not one myself, lady or partier but I can imagine, she looks conscientious, thoughtful did I mention her sense of humour lol, a slight cheekiness I detect.. Only a wonderful father and mother could forge a stunning person like this... Her father has got to be heartbroken and vindictive against those that tarnish her image, she has no malice in her pictures, I can't see any depression in her pictures, I can see cheeky, she seems sensible and reliable, her dress sense is really good.. Of course these are just a selection of pictures on Google pictures but what a wonderful girl and if she is out there I hope she is having a fantastic and wonderful life..
I think everything has been blown out of proportion a little, I think she found the credit card and held onto it for a while just looking at it, thinking "should I do it" she would have questioned herself a lot, she probably heard about the credit card scene and decided to have a go, the fact that she was semi-arrested would have produced that image that was taken, wide eyes and tight lips, I don't think is a big deal, lots of us get in trouble for petty things and get let off sometimes, I think she definitely likes talking and probably talked her way out which is understandable and plausible. The officer was when questioned about it was probably disgusted that somebody would mention that or his wife was standing nearby.
But as we all know life can change in an instant.. The question then comes how would she deal with this based on her character. Let's say she hit someone in her car or 3 of them which is an unlucky number by the way.. Nervous Nelly.? No, I don't think so, by looking at her picture when she got semi-arrested she is calm with her shoulders down.. I don't think she would have run given her achievements, this Girls got spirit, she definitely would have confided in her dad, I think she definitely would have got arrested if she did all 3, she does seem to have a scatty side but it's small, I smile when I think about her character. She is not weak minded she is strong minded. Placid in nature but at 75% round about, maybe a bit lower. This is the kind of girl that you would love to bring home to your parents if you are a man or woman.
I bet her father doesn't know anything about her vanishing, lots of things tell me his a good dad and he would do anything for his daughter, over the years he would have come vindictive and angry, especially with the amount of Internet interest.. Perfect for bullies and they will feed off him and the cycle continues and continues. He probably lashes out at people "in his own way" people may misunderstand him and try to tarnish his name, he may have done some stupid things that people jump on and they love to rub it in, especially one cyberbully, it was a cold hard hit at the father, I sussed it from a short video of it I saw, but then to my amazement after watching the whole thing I saw that cheeky smile, a nonserious smile, this was a senseless attack on the father, publicity come second.
By the way the commentary and the sensibility of you lot is good, I like how you come back to sensibility land lol. I can tell you want to add your theories but you bring it back in to facts, brilliant I love facts.
That rag in the tailpipe would've either blocked her car from starting almost immediately or at best caught fire within a couple minutes. More likely this rag-in-the-tailpipe was done by the perp that picked her up when she was disabled.
Could the cigarette light be a flashlight instead? One of those laser lights ppl often have hanging from their keychains back then? That kind of light could be mistaken for a cigarette from a long distance away.
So, another's interesting episode that brings up more questions. If someone had been smoking in the car, even in those temperatures, the cops would have smelled it when they arrived. Also, a smoker DEFINITELY would have lit up after an experience like that to calm down. My usual complaint about the bickering is back after taking a few episodes off: this week it's around the missing bottle of Kahlua. One of the podcasters kept saying, "you could assume that" in a tone that sai, "but..." Without offering another suggestion. I almost threw my iPod across the room at that point. Also: has any report ever talked about whether or not there was a bag with clothes or anything else in the car?
I think that if someone other than Maura put the rag in the tailpipe it would have had to be her father. He knew the rag was in there before anyone else did, right? If she was killed by an opportunistic killer, I don't think they put the rag in the tailpipe. Her dad wouldn't have known about it ahead of time then.
English is not my language, so I apologize that is not written correctly. But I hope is understandable. Thank You. I think she have a problem, a problem she did not share with anyone. Maybe she was pregnant and want to solve that, taken some days to do the abortion or take her life. It pays my attention that she never call to the insurance for the form she will fill out that night toghether with her father. There is no mention that she contact the car agency or the insurce company. Maybe because she new she wont came back looks like more to a suicide. Agree that she intent to confuse everyone not let them know where she was going. As a matter off fact she was looking a place to stay, did several calls looking for a place, she was decide to do it, so she already was on that mission. The decision to finish her life wasn`t easy the way she was acting all those day where some peopple notice, drinking a lot, nervous, no pay attention, doing the things wrong, lost. But some else did it for her, before she rich the resort, hotel where she will take her life. I think she gave a right to someone, or from the gas station was follow, he or thet hit her car to make her loose control. She was rappe an kill that same afternoon and left in the vast forest for ever. An the bottle of Bailiyes was the expensive one of the one she bought, so the killer took it with the money she recently widraw. She is not on this world sinse that feb 9, 2004. I was delighted with the program, congratulations.
Lore Alva I waver between suicide / accidental death in the woods and abduction. And of-course if she was abducted she's dead too and as you said she probably died that same night. I would say I was sure she ran into the woods, but for what happened with the search dog. The case is extremely frustrating.
Aeiralkate. Well! we both are agree even suicide, you say maybe an accident, I discard the car accident for the explanation that the car hits do not match the way the car was positioned at the end, So I say that someone followed, made her stop, she tried to escape and hit her car to made her lose control, Also if it had been an accident the body would be there, but it was not. She was kidnapped, raped and murdered that day and her body hidden in the great forest. (This is a strong theory for me). The theory of suicide to me does not convince me. If she was gone it to commit suicided she would do it in the hotel room where she never arrived. I think that she had a big problem that disturbed her and intended to solve it. Something serious maybe, as I said before pregnant and not for her boyfriend, but I do not give force to this The theory that she made the whole parapet to escape, to get lost without a trace. I do believe. But also the fact that there was no mentioned that she contact with the car insurance company to fill out late that night together with her father. ( this match with a person that is not considre to come back) For me, she was going to solve that problem (know what it was). But on those lonely roads before arriving at her destination, almost beginning his journey, she encounters a madman, either inviting him for a passage or she was followed after the stop in the gas station. For me this is what happened.
Lore Alva If she intended to kill herself it doesn't preclude the possibility that she was murdered. She could well have been suicidal or recklessly out of control and this would have played right into the hands of some predator. Maggie Frehling who presented the recent documentary on Oxygen "The disappearance of Maura Murray" believes it can be solved. I don't think so but I'm guessing she knows more than me! A lot of the episodes of that documentary are available on TH-cam at the moment. They are well worth a look, because they're more up to date than the older 'Maura' shows like the original "Disappeared" documentary. Plus she has access to people in the case we've hitherto only read about.
That's why is a mistery. I Started to listen this last week I listened until episode 5, it took me half day an part of the night. The traces that Maura left previous to her disappearance are pretty odd. either way she left a lot traces, that take us to any of the different conclusion could happen to Maura. They mentioned the father slightly, He should be investigated deep.. I I`ll continuo episode 6 now, let`s see is something new is reveal
Lore Alva Well I didn't know episode 6 has aired? I had to rely on links people post on TH-cam for episodes 3 and 5, because they're not on TH-cam in full at time of writing. I think Maura's life was falling apart. She was headed for a DUI conviction which meant her nursing career was over before it began. She'd boxed up all her stuff at college and this to me is getting her affairs in order. She'd headed to a place with happy memories from simpler times - her childhood. She took 5 boxes of sleeping pills and a shedload of booze. I know what that tells me. I think her Dad was right first time when he told LE she was planning the "squaw walk". Lots of humiliating things had happened in succession. I think she wanted out. But a passing predator could have wanted something else before she was able to kill herself. A sad story.
I don't think a killer noticing her and going after her is that unlikely. Some people who like hurting other people have a bit of a radar for those who are troubled and distracted. He might have noticed her and realized that she could be easily victimized.
Never automatically assume that a dude smoking a cigarette couldn't possibly be a cross country runner. It's possible. I ran in high school, I've seen it before. Especially very young lungs, of course.
I will bet you she really did hit and run that kid that night as the car damage fits this case and shape of a person run over. She Got very panicked about it, and all the pressure in her life causes her to skip town to Canada. Abandons her dads car and starts fresh in another country.
6:50 Fred Murray told the police he put the rag in the tailpipe. Maura's mysterious trip did not end because of a motor failure but because she crashed.
Again it's contradictory, does she want people people think she's going to disappear because that's what was suggested first with her packing up her stuff and calling around to different places or does she want to make it look like shes not trying to disappear by making plans with friends for Feb 12th...
I've been following the podcast with interest, but I feel there's a lot of supposition and speculation regarding events and motives. I think there's been a tendency in this case to search for and ascribe darker motives on Maura's part than there probably was.
Nicholas Krancher There is absolutely no need to be combative. Yes, what we factually know about Maura's case can fit inside a thimble but conjecture can only go so far. Relying on it too much can lead down too many rabbit holes that only serve to muddy things (look at how long the Vasi angle has been clung to with not even circumstantial evidence placing Maura near the hit and run). In this particular case conjuncture and supposition often tends to be regarded as fact. I believe that the podcasts would do well to be a bit tighter in their presentation instead of speculating whether or not Maura was some sort of criminal mastermind.
ladylothwen I agree with you, This is not a "serious attempt at finding the truth" a la Serial. This is just 2 guys blabbing on and on about what MIGHT have hapenned to Maura Murray. I dont think they have nothing new to add to this other than wild speculation with no base whatsoever. That said, Im interested by this case so hearing people talk about it is interesting to me. PS: Im not a smoker but smokers smoke to relax themselves in stressful situations, if my ex bf were in a car accident, the first thing he would do is light up a cigarrette.
+ladylothwen That area has been thoroughly searched repeatedly. Even if she were to crawl into something the animals would have scattered the bones. A cadaver dog would have found something.
How can you even mention contradictory accounts of what she bought when there's a receipt in the car that says exactly what she bough and she hadn't been seen by anyone else since, to contradict what she bought. Like who's contradicting this and why include that in the podcast when it clearly can't be disputed if they have the receipt.
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I think this is what happened:
Maura was very depressed at the time of her disappearance and was under a lot of pressure. I think she was also an alcoholic or getting there, because you don't drive drunk in a minor car accident once and then do it AGAIN a few days later (this time drinking wine out of a damn Pepsi bottle), unless you have a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. In the black-and-white photo where the police took a picture of her in front of her dorm, she looks like she lost weight, her face isn't as full, she looks tired... she just looks bad.
So she decides to take off for a few days to collect her thoughts and basically just take a break from life. She's driving down the road, drinking wine out of a Pepsi bottle when she crashed her car into a tree. The passing school bus driver stops to see if she's okay and asks if she wants her to call the police. This freaks Maura out because she knows that the police will probably do some DUI roadside tests and find out that she had been drinking.
The driver leaves, but Maura knows the police are probably going to be called soon anyway and starts to panic. She had only recently been arrested for using a stolen credit card, and that charge was supposed to be dismissed in March - but only for good behavior. A DUI would definitely be a violation of that. She starts getting worked up, thinking she's going to go to jail (she probably wouldn't have, but drunk people aren't known for being totally rational) and decides her best bet is hide in the woods. She takes off.
She runs and runs and soon she finds herself lost, surrounded by a sea of trees and snow - and it's getting late. Hypothermia starts to creep in and, as her body temperature declines, so do her mind and her coordination (the alcohol certainly doesn't help, either).
I think she passed away from hypothermia sometime that night. If I'm correct, then her remains are probably within a few miles of the accident scene. I think she crawled into a tight spot like a hollow log or some bushes in an attempt to find some warmth (as people suffering from a bad case of hypothermia often do) and later died in that spot, and her remains simply haven't been found yet because they're somewhat hidden. Forests are very difficult to search; sometimes the searcher even walks right past the human remains they're looking for, and it isn't until the area is searched a second (or even third) time that they find the remains.
I don't think foul play was involved. I think this is a case of a very troubled young woman who was drunk and panicked, ran into the woods, got lost and died of eposure. Drunk people especially are at risk of dying in this way because the alcohol dulls their senses, makes them more likely to make very poor decisions on impulse, and hampers their coordination and thinking. It happens all the time.
It's a very sad story. Shame that Maura never got the chance to get her shit together and put her life back on the right track. I hope her remains are found soon and her family can finally begin to mourn and put this whole sad chapter behind them.
Samantha Fee I think this is the most logical and likely scenario. 100%.
Samantha Fee I would agree there is a possibility she died of exposure but I think there were scent dogs used to track her and they lost her scent on the highway not the forest. I saw that somewhere, maybe the Disappeared episode? So there is a possibility someone took her. Edited to add : Did that person wanted to help her or harm her? Who knows?
Thank you so much for posting this. Same as my thoughts exactly. Occam's razor / stats on suicide versus abduction etc and the evidence presented thus far strongly support this hypothesis. Alternative is she is heading to old family vacation spot with plans of suicide (nostalgic location symbolizing happier times). She crashes car and decides to end her life there in the forest. I would bet money on this not being foul play.
Samantha Fee , good logical reasoning EXCEPT :The dogs lose her scent right down the road in middle of the road. (car ride from grim reaper ) plus she seemed to smart to get her self in a hyperthermia position
Lore Muhler I agree she was too smart-she was after all a nursing student and would have known what to do in that situation to avoid hypothermia. Also I wonder if she went into the woods why there were no footprints leading away from the scene. And why the dogs didn’t track her into the woods. I think if she did end up in the woods she probably used her long distance track running skills to run a ways down the road and then went into the woods. But the dogs I think would have tracked her scent further in that case. My personal theory is she got into another car and no one happened to see it pull up at the time. Or she had an accomplice parked ahead in the opposite direction butch atwood’s bus came from. But in that case the roads must’ve been clear of snow otherwise there’d be footprints leading down the road in the fresh snow. It would have had to be perfect for her to crash her car and have someone waiting to pick her up planned out that way.
Why don't you look into the first responding cop? He was out of contact for 2 hours after this. Can we for sure know that he never met Maura, at the car or walking away from it. To be honest he is the only person who would have had the time and opportunity to abduct her among the persons we know of excluding Butch Atwood. (who I don't think is guilty of anything in this case)
That would also explain the total silence on this case from the police. If your prime suspect is an policeman you don't want anything to get out unless you can 100% prove it. Anyway I think its worth looking into.
umm i am a smoker and the FIRST THING I'D DO after an accident is LIGHT UP !!! absolutely bar none ... I've been a smoker for 15+ yrs and i can tell you the triggers for smoking are when you are tense , in a stressful situation , as well as when you are relaxing . There is never a bad time to light up , unfortunately in my humble opinion .
+kim Arciuolo Absolutely right!!! Same here!
+kim Arciuolo agreed
Lol agreed, it's calming. Helps put your head on straight in those situations
Same
Absolutely agree. As a smoker of 35 years (now stopped) any stressful situation would see me reach for the baccy right away.
LOL, hearing a non-smoker give such a confident opinion about how a smoker wouldn't light up after a car accident is absurd. I am a smoker it is hard for me to imagine NOT needing a cigarette in a tense situation or after a nerve-racking experience. If you are a smoker, a cig is the first thing you reach for in order to calm your nerves. Other than that nonsense, this might be one of the most intriguing podcasts I have ever listened to and I have been recommending it to several people. Great job fellas
We have a 1996 Saturn that is still on the road and driven daily. These Saturns have little red alert lights that are on constantly if one has engine issues and after an accident one or more of these alert lights would have definitely been on. This might account for the "cigarette".
So many young women have been "in the wrong place at the wrong time". You don't need to be a serial killer to successfully commit a murder (albeit possibly without stetting out to) and get away with it for years. It really isn't an "incredible coincidence" at all. Someone who is, maybe, drunk and upset is FAR more vulnerable and far less guarded. To think that there was someone planning this is the silly assumption - as in so many cases, this is most logically a crime of the moment - a dark night, a vulnerable girl and the chance for sex - which then all goes horribly wrong. Its really not a stretch of the imagination at all. I fear this is a crime like so many others...
I agree this is the most likely scenario yet there is no body. However this wouldn't be the first time a body disappears forever. It's a strange coincidence though.
When things go wrong you can look back and see how everything was in place to have that happen, almost like it was meant to be.
It's horrible yet looking at a different yet similar situation it is possible that one wrong thing leads to another wrong thing and boom you're smack dab in the middle of trouble. That's usually how it happens. Usually you get to go back and see how everything fit perfectly to bring you to that terrible place and time. Only with Maura we are the ones seeing how it all played out!
I agree this is the most logical Occams Razor the most logical answer is the best. She wrecked her car was afraid she'd get arrested & took her things & took off walking someone offered her a ride she gets in & is abducted assaulted & killed . All these conspiracy theories don't make sense. People love a conspiracy.
People think it would have to be a serial killer that's not true there everywhere & walk among us .
Having been a smoker... when I reached the top of a mountain, finished a final exam, or was part of a traumatic event, I'd reach for a smoke and suck it down while processing what I just experienced...
Everyone is different, but I could imagine lighting up after a car accident!
Oh my god of course she would light up a cigarette after the accident if she smoked and was alone. Getting into another accident when she's trying to get away from her problems? Jesus Christ, that would be a reason for a cigarette. That said, eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate.
Regarding whether or not a smoker would think to smoke a cigarette right after an accident. ABSOLUTELY 100% A smoker would want a cigarette right after being in an accident. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the call said something like she could see a man in the car smoking a cigarette while there was a flurry of activity by the trunk. I have seen some comments make something of the supposed smoker just sitting there smoking and not helping Maura. What could have the smoker guy really helped her with at that point? When you get into a car accident and your car gets totaled there's really not anything you can do at that point but wait for help. If Maura was looking for something in the trunk, theres really not any reason for the guy to be up and out of the car with her.
In general, the witness account that there was a man smoking in the car just feels too specific for it not to be at least what that witness THINKS she originally saw. As you guys pointed out, its possible that she maybe had a different opinion later on regarding what she saw but I do think that at the beginning she would be pretty confident that her report of seeing a man smoking a cigarette was the truth. How this all fits into the grand scheme of things? I dont know but just thought I would touch on that because I definitely dont think it would be wise to rule out a smoker in the car because it doesn't seem like an appropriate time to have a cigarette when on the contrary I believe in a stressful situation such as an accident would be an ideal time to have a cigarette to most smokers including myself.
so confused. why is the rag in the tailpipe being questioned again. obviously it is a question as to why it was there, but why speculate if a stranger did it to kidnap her when her father brought it up himself before even being asked. It's something odd indeed but I feel like it's just bringing in yet another theory and clouding this case even more when the only question is why the father knew about it, possibly told her to put it there etc., and what if anything it could have to do with her disappearance.
Also as far as not needing a social security number sure she can get a temporary position getting paid cash but looking term and staying in the same place....I doubt that.
You straight up wrong about people not wanting a ciggies after an accident. When I was 18 I was in my friends car getting a lift to school when we got in a car wreck and the first thing the lady in the other car that hit us asked if we had a light so she could light up
Mr. Renner - did you ever consider Maura Murray was being blackmailed by somebody? That fits the narrative wonderfully, plus answers a plethora of unanswered questions.
I am a former smoker and in a stressful situation I lit up!!! Did they check her ashtray or area's around the car for possible cigarette butts ?
Sweet Suzy they didn't find any ciggarette asses to my knowledge
My theory; The drunk cop hears it on the scanner. Fly's around the curb. Either strikes Maura or the car or both. Realizes he is in deep trouble. Gets rid of the witness to it all.
I question whether she got into a passing vehicle to avoid the confrontation by the police with possibly drinking. Maybe this person convinced her that he lived close by and could come back later and get her things.She may not normally have gotten in a car by a stranger but felt pressure by what could happen to her future plans with a DUI. She may have thought this was the last attempt to get out of the situation. I think whoever took her, he either seemed non threatening at the time or maybe she even knew him casually. Perhaps she had ran into him on her journey before the actual crash, like a restaurant etc. I do unfortunately believe she met with foul play. I pray for answers for her family. I think the answers lie within a 15 mile radius of the crash site.
You guys absolutely rock! The only dual guy podcast with no irritating speech patterns /lingo quirks /pauses / competitions (talking over one another)/annoying interruptions and aimless or obscure tangents you’re both right on task! Thank you 🙏
I agree!!! 💯
Just for the record : I am a smoker myself and when I was Maura's age I would lit up a cig in moments of nervousness and stress. An accident would have been one of those stressful moments for me. Idk, just saying.
in reference to the broad theory that she planned this, as a way of disappearing... it's mentioned in either this or a previous podcast that she withdrew roughly $300 from her bank account. that's not going to last long, especially after she buys alcohol and gas that day. She'd have money for no more than 3 days of a hotel and food. If she was planning on disappearing, I think the only way it could have actually worked this well is if she had been planning it quite a while in advance. she would probably have a large amount of cash saved from previous withdrawals. if anything, I think the events of the previous few days would have moved up her plan to disappear, not spawned the plan. has any research been done into perhaps a pattern of previous cash withdrawals, or perhaps discussions with others that might hint at a final or more permanent destination?
U either see a man smoking a cigarette or you don't...how do you confuse that?
You see a "red light" which you initially take to be the smouldering tip of a cigarette but then realise it is probably something else.
I honestly think everyone is making too much out of her movements before she disappeared. If I wasn't here, someone could look at all my movements yesterday and wonder why I did everything I did, which had no ulterior motives or were suspicious at all, but I'm sure someone would say, "why did she stop at her mom's on the way to pick her son up at school?" I didn't tell anyone I had a dish of hers that she gave me leftovers in and I dropped it off, simple as that. My mom doesn't know I stopped because I haven't told her yet and my husband and son don't know. It's just things like that. My guess is she hit that guy, was distraught, told her dad, he helped her attempt to get a new car, she left, was drinking while driving and either crashed her car because of that or on purpose (or just made it look like she hit the tree or snowbank) to cover up hitting the other guy. She didn't want to get busted for drunk driving. left the car, took off, got lost and froze in the woods.
I agree. Yes people look so hard they start seeing things. And drunken dispatch from the car, trying to go across off road terrain, falling down / hitting head / hypothermia - it's my favourite theory.
They searched a large area around the crash site with cadaver dogs several weeks after the accident. There were no hits. She couldn’t have gotten far but they searched allll around that area.
@@pacisle3232 There has been a numerous cases where the missing person (or their remains) was found within 1 mile radius from where they were last seen - after decades and in spite of extensive searches. So it would not surprise me a lot if this would also happen here.
She had a wreck, She was drunk and desperate to get out of there, a guy pulls up on a drunk, desperate attractive young woman, he gives her a lift, he tries to have sex, she declined, he forced her, he panicked, he killed her and done away with the body.
The only question is who he is
I am new here so I'm catching up on all your episodes. Y'all should investigate the Brandon Lawson disappearance!
In a lot of ways, I think this episode is where the rubber meets the road. One of the things I find so interesting about this case is that virtually every scenario seems to be just as likely... or unlikely.
I get what these guys are trying to say when they ask, "What are the chances that she just so happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and there was a person who was able to grab her right at the right moment?"
This is a good question, but the problem is that it over looks the unfortunate reality that this type of stuff happens a lot. I mean, really, any time someone is a victim of a serial killer, we could ask, "What were the odds?" Chances are, the odds are very low. But yet, people are still victims of homicide every single day.
Then, what are the odds that she did succumb to the elements not far from where she was last seen, but just simply hasn't been found? Well, I do realize that the area was extensively searched... then again, I also know that this type of thing happens as well.
As for the eye-witness discrepancies, such as the first witness believing she saw a man smoking in the car... remember, that it was most likely dark, and from a distance, Maura might have been mistaken for a guy, especially if she had her hair up, or the person didn't really get that good of a visual. Note that the bus driver never mentioned seeing anyone else.
As for the time it took for her to disappear... it might not be that surprising. If it was an abduction, then remember, a lot of abductions happen very quickly. And because people don't tend to think, "I had better keep looking outside of my window to see if I see anything of interest, because this person could end up being a missing person", it isn't that surprising that no one saw (and like I said, being February and close to 7:30 pm, it was most likely dark). Besides, I know I don't just sit at my front window looking out for interesting activity. In fact, something could be happening right now in front of my house and I wouldn't have a clue. I'm sure, now that Maura is a high-profile missing person, the residents there are kicking themselves for not keeping a better eye on her. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do about that now.
Also, one thing I must mention is that people who follow this case, like these guys on the Podcasts, James Renner, myself, etc... for us, we know what Maura looks like (at least in 2004) because we're obsessed with this case. We're thinking of this case daily and hoping that something new or interesting will be revealed that sheds light on the case. Compared to the population of the U.S. or Canada... or the world, we're a very very very small bunch. If Maura is still alive, she could be living life, being seen by people, and they have absolutely no clue who she is. And especially not if she looks different than she did back then. In fact, I'd be willing to bet $100 that if I went up to 10 random people at my work and asked them if they know who Maura Murray is, that all 10 would say, "Who is that?"
Remember, also that sometimes people are hard to recognize from photos. For some reason, with their movements, mannerisms, etc, they tend to be hard to tell from photos. I'm sure we've all known people who look better, worse, or simply different in their photos. This could also be why the bus driver didn't recognize Maura from a photo at first.
With that said, I've been following this case for a little over a year now. And before a year ago, I could have walked right up to Maura, and not even realized who she was. And I'm someone who is interested in true crime, but before a year ago, this one just sort of fell through the cracks for me. So it's not hard for me to understand how someone, who isn't even interested with true crime in general, wouldn't recognize her even if she looked exactly the way she did back in 2004.
I love how you say it was February at almost 730 at night and MOST LIKELY DARK no it was February almost 730 and it WAS dark. Even with a street light it is still going to be dark
@@k.c9698 Ok, I was saying that because I didn't know if there were street lights, or property lights, etc... but I don't think it really detracts from the rest of my post. It being dark just means it was that much easier for her to disappear without anyone noticing.
She’s not alive , she wasn’t some sophisticated con artist. i think she hid in woods after crash and died from the cold. that’s always been my theory.
No, the passenger-side airbag is supposed to be disabled when the seat is unoccupied or holding a briefcase or something similar. In fact, the airbag may not deploy even if a small adult is sitting in the front passenger seat.
For gods sake. You both don't smoke yet you think you know how a smoker would react after an accident. If it was a passenger maybe they were shaken up and were trying to steady their nerves . Maura had already got out the car . People react to stressful situations in different ways. I know I'm a smoker.
Also if there was a passenger in the car why didn't the bus driver see them ?
**On the cigarette thing...if it were in the car, you would smell it. Cigarette smoke REEKS. So, I would think a police officer or anyone else would have been able to pick up on that distinctive scent when checking out the scene.
Absolutely!
I have the problem with that woman from that motel/hostel the 3 minutes call was placed to. I saw her on Disappeared, and she looks in my eyes as someone lying, being sure that nobody will find out. She said she didn't remember anything, and she wished she could help. But she looks to me as if she hides something. Like she helped her disappear.
They are really jumping to a lot of conclusions in these podcasts. I'm new to this story but the idea that she has a job at a bar in Canada and is living off the grid for 15 years with absolutely no factual evidence to back that up is quite a stretch.There isn't even a solid motive for the "runaway" narrative. The facts are that she was prone to accidents and making poor decisions but in the grand scheme of things, that's a lot of young adults. I haven't researched this enough to draw any real conclusions of my own but if I had to guess say she is most likely deceased. If you look at the facts, her pattern of behavior would make it nearly impossible for her to obtain and maintain a completely new life without detection. She was prone too poor decision making and questionable judgement. A 21 year old with no resources and that pattern of behavior does not turn into Jason Bourne. At some point shed need a SSI, especially if she was going to Canada. Its just not a likely scenario given her circumstances.
I know of a 20 something year old that was a Stripper in Toronto and without a Visa or whatever made it to California and became a Psychic to the Stars. How the heck do you explain that? Oh and she was drinking and dropping acid too. Married a well-off Man that she loved and had Children. That's the true life story of Sloan Bella!!
Sooo, yes you can do it. Things can turn out for good just like they can line up for bad to happen.
I've had many experiences that very few others have had, yet they really did happen to me even if it was a one in a million type chance of it.
Any and all smokers would’ve smoked a cig at that opportunity man or woman. I haven’t smoked in over 20 years but, I still dream of smoking cigs. That’s a strange and powerful addiction. I recall wanting a cigarette with and for practically every single new action let alone events. After a shower... have a smoke. Eat a meal... smoke. Have a coffee.... great time to smoke. Go for a drive.... Smokey Smokey. Sex... smoke. Working hard if able to integrate it.... smoke. Unable?... take a much deserved smoke break. When you’re a smoker... you tend to spend more time either thinking about having a smoke or smoking at all your addicted brain and body nicotine receptor sites’ suggested signaling shots from your brain to... your mind... I just wanted to make that tiny detail clear to you guys since you both seem smart enough to have avoided the pathetic enslavement that is the addiction to nicotine products.
I do not believe there was a man smoking in the car but, it would sort of be plausible that someone who maybe was blackmailing or terrorizing her (her being upset and implying her sister had upset her could maybe be someone playing sick games to make her feel threatened in some way. Could he have been with her and caused her two accidents. Following her and stalking her on both occasions. When he caused the second one, he gets in the car and tells her what he wants her to do in the next few minutes as he has a cigarette. Knowing police response times he gets out after telling her this is what she’s going to do... with no time to make a level decision and her possibly and likely knowing her stalker, she sees it as preferable to a DUI and legal fallout. She sees it as not life threatening danger. She sees it as a way out.
It’s spaghetti at the wall. I honestly have no idea. I’m not staying this as fact. I do wonder what art was on the wall at the dorm in Amherst? We’re any of these works Maura’s own art? If so, did she remove all the art to hide a possible clue within her own art. Her favorite film was Wes Anderson’s “Bottle Rocket”. This is a comedy and also a weird Wes Anderson film that involves crazy simple crime sprees and a 75 year plan by a main character which involves getaway drivers and plans. Perhaps it’s a stretch to look into this and admittedly you can make anything from Shrek to the Deerhunter fit any narrative of you try hard enough and work backwards from your conclusions.
I do wonder about any art she was possibly creating on her own. It could indicate feeling and psychology within. Why remove the art? It has been a detail that has gotten many people to falsely assume she emptied her entire dorm when apparently that was far from the truth of things. It is somewhat of an easy leap though so... as so many pieces tend to, this detail perplexes and muddies many waters as to what happened to Maura Murray.
I love this podcast and I love you guys, you have devoted so much time and energy to this case and, regardless of people agreeing with you, or being dismissive of you, your efforts are admiral.
I have a weird question that popped into mind when you mentioned both airbags deployed. I can't remember if cars back in the 90s (I believe her Saturn was a 90-something model) had the feature that they do now where whether or not a person is sitting in the passenger seat, the airbag system detects weight. As an example, whether I place my handbag on the front seat, a single bag of groceries, one of my son's backpacks, or, one of my sons, the airbag safety feature identifies something (I'm guessing of a certain weight or more) as being on the seat. There is a button looking indicator indicating that the airbag for the passenger seat is on. I'm guessing that if nothing is detected, the airbag wouldn't be "active". Again, my car is a 2012, not a car made in the 90s, so I'm just throwing this out there. If cars back then, particularly the year, make and model that Maura was driving had this same feature or something comparable, did the passenger airbag deploy because it detected someone in the seat (or something of a certain weight or more). Did the car contents report indicate the location of where her personal affects were (textbooks, bookbag, etc)? Thanks :-)
Really enjoying the podcast although I have to say, it seems to be growing increasingly speculative each week. This podcast is part fact, part rumour, innuendo and imagination, which really reflects the almost urban-myth type proportions of this case thanks to the internet and web sleuthing. If I disappeared tomorrow, it would be very easy to read far too deeply into my (innocent) actions over the past week, viewing them in a sinister light and interpreting them to be far more mysterious than what they really are. Really. Think about it. Look at your own life over the past week, then imagine how some of your actions could be viewed in light of your disappearance. For example, I think Maura mentioned in an email to her friend that she was going to see a show because….well…she wanted to tell her friend she was going to see a show. I think she returned a lab coat because...she had borrowed somebody’s lab coat and thought to give it back. I do not think Maura was running away to start a new life. I think she wanted to get away for a little while (not permanently), had an accident, left the scene of the accident in an attempt to conceal her drink driving and either died from exposure in the forest or was picked up by a passing stranger and murdered. The latter is far more believable than the likelihood of a mentally unstable 21 year old with a drinking problem successfully hiding out in Canada all these years. And to address what was discussed in this episode, there are instances of people being in the wrong place at the wrong time and falling victim to opportunistic killers ALL the time. Unfortunately, I think that is what happened here. And there is really nothing much more to it.
I literally just sent in an email with this exact point. My god, if we tore apart every detail of my life right now, you'd think it was way more mysterious than it is. We're also not talking about how *incredibly* difficult it is to disappear intentionally with no trace at all for eleven years. I think it's most likely she crashed her car, set off on foot, and was lost or abducted. That said, I'm fascinated with this case.
+Bianca Armendy Yeah it's interesting that they mentioned Occam's Razor in the last podcast and then started speculating about whether or not she's in Canada. Is it possible? Sure. But I think you're right; I think the most likely explanation is she stumbled off into the woods and died of exposure from the cold. No foul play, just really unfortunate circumstances.
+Bianca Armendy I agree with you, but I do think there is a chance for something sketchier to be going on than just Maura dying of exposure in the woods. The biggest issues to me are the weird phone call/"my sister" thing, and the way that her dad keeps changing his story... I think he knows something.
As I have gotten more information I have gotten less and less suspicious of the dad. I am getting increasingly suspicious of the police department. I really don't think she just ran into the woods to die. Doesn't sound like something that a 21-year-old would do when faced with owning up to her mistakes. She doesn't really seem to be that much of a perfectionist to me. But then again, what do I know!
+Bianca Armendy I agree with you, and am leaning towards murder. I don't understand if she died of exposure why the body hasn't been found. I think it hasn't been found because somebody didn't want it found. She is more than likely buried deep out in the woods up there. There was another case (maybe more) of a young, white girl disappearing leaving nothing but an abandoned car behind. I think her name was Brianna Maitland but I could be wrong. It occurred less than 100 miles from the crash site of Maura's.
the last time I was in an accident I smoked a cigarette directly afterward.. :p
didn't remain in the car, but yeah..
willy wonka Willy Wonka 😀
Willy, no chocolate? just a cigarette
Same here
She just didn’t disappear on purpose imo
How man experienced criminals with significant resources, experience in disappearing and connections to with people to help that’ll keep their mouths shut
As a smoker, the first thing I would do is pull out a cigarette when stressed.
I'm very new to this case sorry if my questions are already answered but here are some questions ideas for you. Oh and I'm loving the story so far
Why would the father let her drive his car after drinking and not wake up when she came in the room? Why not just drive the hour / half home after dinner instead of staying? I heard him say in an interview they always looked for a pub to have dinner in. Maybe he was drunk also. That would explain the poor decisions, sleeping through someone's phone call and why he didn't go home after dinner. Has anyone checked on that?
I spun out really bad once when driving too fast in rainy conditions and I was a casual smoker I smoked right after to calm down to finish the drive home. Also if it was cold and she opened her door could the warm breath would hit the cold air. You know that saying "You can see your own breath" Maybe that was why she thought it was smoke and when realized oh it is 40 degrees she dropped the smoking idea.
Also no Social Security Number there are about what 10 million illegal aliens living in the USA right now they manage to survive without a SSN she could also.
In the 1990ies air bags weren't as good as they were now. They would go off without anyone in the seat so 2 going off isn't the smoking gun it would be today
I've been so obsessed with this case as of late......I'm probably late in the game.....but if she frize....or ran into woods or even walked to a car wouldn't there have been footprints?!?!? it's all so baffling......if she froze in the woods or drowned or died she WOULD HAVE been found by now!!!!!!!! SOME TRACE would have been found BY NOW!!!!!!! I mean it is SO WEIRD...... EVERYTHING about this mystery.......I just wish there was SOME solid answers......
Artist Fox YES omg this is what gets me too-the people who think she ran into the woods tend to forget about this part. The only thing that would lead to no footprints is if it wasn’t fresh snow and she got into another car on the roadway, that maybe was salted or covered in ice but not snow. She didn’t run into the woods.
Unless she ran a few miles up the road then ran into the woods-but the dogs didn’t track her scent that far. She either was abducted by someone who lived close by or got into a car.
Why does it have to be a cigarette? Couldn't it be a marijuana joint instead?
a smoker, a true smoker, needs no reason to smoke.... like anyone with an addiction. the sun is up, think I'll smoke. it's Friday think I'll smoke. there is oxygen today, think I'll smoke. that being said a stressful incident with any addiction is an excuse and that addiction physically takes hold of you and you do it. so wreck equals smoking immediately afterwards. you all clearly have never been addicted to anything which is a really good thing. though it makes you two sound a little ignorant about the "I doubt you'd immediately think of smoking after an accident" or whatever you two said that in return led you both to believe that it was prolly a reflection... you both have done a fantastic job. just thought I'd point out about the cigarette.....
the first thing i would do is smoke a cigarette i can think and smoke at the same time
I didn’t know who Maura Murray was until the Oxygen series came out last year. I think it’s perfectly reasonable theory that in a small town, maybe with an older population, she could hide. Not to mention, a lot of people don’t pay attention to their bartender. Think about it, can you picture the bartender that served you last?
This case is so frustrating. It's like a constant ache.
Everyone is always focusing on Butch Atwood (the bus driver) and yet no one talks about the The Westman's in the white house right there pretty much across the road from the accident. I am not saying they did any harm, but weird that they called the crash in and yet what they went back to dinner? No, you would be looking out your window, I don't care who you are. Was there some weird altercation with the first officer to arrive? If Maura was intoxicated and put up a fight with the first responder. We still don't know if Cecil Smith or the state trooper John Monoghan showed up first. I also remember a interview years later from a EMS man who was on the scene of the accident after and he said that "everything about the accident was weird." and said " If she had just lost control of the car coming around the corner, she would of impacted the North side of the curve, which she didn't, she clipped the corner. She sheared the snowbank clear off and continued to the other side, where it turned her car around."
+Linus Zims Have you seen the corner she went off? There are arrow signs indicating caution cause of the very hard sharp turn. I'm from the area and you usually see these on corners that cause people to go off the road often. I'm sure this isn't the first crash they have seen on that corner and probably watched until they saw the driver ok and went back to dinner.
I believe she planned to disappear. The car crash was not part of the plan. I do believe she was successful in her disappearance but not for long. There is no way she could be successful for so long. She would have surfaced by now. I think she died many years ago.
As for her escaping to Canada and getting a job their hiring practices are alot more strict than America's. They don't or rarely higher under the table. I know people who have lived in Canada for many years .They went to Canada from the U.S. tey had to go through the whole green card process. They had/have to show why they are there in writing. For how long and had to prove the residence as well. They had to verify this info twice a year. And if ANYTHING changed they had/have to notify immigration and show proof why and how.
Canada is NOT like the U.S. they DO NOT let anyone and everyone in their country. Their laws are very strict. To be come an official citizen of Canada it took 5 years or more.
I highly doubt she {Maura} was able to get a job at a bar under the table just because she was a cute college girl.
p..s and YES you MUST have an SS Card to find gainful employment in Canada no matter how cute you are.
Thanks for putting this info out there. I never thought to look at the actual logistics of running away to Canada. Your friends who did this - was it pre- or post-9/11? Thank you for posting this!
Oh you're absolutely wrong about smoking a cigarette first thing. Not only are you not a smoker but you must not associate much with anyone that is. The very first thing any smoker is going to do is light up a cigarette. Your friend panicking has nothing to do with smoking a cigarette and it's not going to interfere with the panic in fact a cigarette is going to be used to reduce panic mode at this point. Why comment you wouldn't do it and you're not even a smoker. Smoking is like second nature to us smokers. Smoking goes hand and hand with everything we do. Stress about something...smoke a cigarette, after meals/food....smoke a cigarette, after sex...cigarette...driving...cigarette....bored....cigarette. You are right though it's not something we would even consider after a car accident it's something that we would automatically do without even thinking about it. There would be no hmmmm should I smoke a cigarette it would just happen no questions asked.
Ughhh this podcast. It gets a 1.5 stars out of 5 from me. Too bias with uneducated, unsupported information and opinions to be considered credible. Definitely this is just for entertainment purposes and all the people refusing to talk to you guys are smart. The entire family did an interview with reputable networks you can barley get someone who knows someone who knows someone to entertain these things does that not shed light on anything for you? Also these podcasts have been up for 5 years and this one is at 26,000 views thats it in 5 years, that's it!
Smokers, smoke! After an accident you're just sitting there you're not being rushed wtf are you even talking about. But yes sometimes you do want to enjoy it, sometimes like after a car accident you wouldn't necessarily enjoy it you would need it to calm you and sitting in a car is definitely not a time you're rushing to smoke. Why on earth would you even assume that in that moment they would be rushed?
....now I need a cigarette! 🚬
I feel like if there was a smoker in the car or any second person in or around the car, the bus driver would've seen them. Definitely a good point that it's weird whoever the "smoker" was wouldn't be helping Maura and would just be sitting there smoking.
Hell..the first thing I would do is smoke a cig! I would be panicked and would need a cig more than ever!
The abduction theory is very unlikely if you ask me due to the remoteness of the area. I've spent time in New Hampshire and there just aren't a lot of people. The odds that someone other than the bus driver drove by are probably low let alone someone who is a murderer or something. However, a witness originally said that she saw someone with her and there was an argument or something near the trunk of the car. And you definitely would smoke a cigarette after an accident.
How come there is no mention of the phone call that came from her phone after her disappearance. I was to her boyfriend but she never said anything, she was just breathing hard during the call. I saw it on the Disappeared episode.
Oh yeah that's right, there was a call to Billy and all he heard was whimpering and breathing.
Too bad it doesn't help us, was she alone and dying or being kidnapped ? Which way do we go ?
Nope, do not believe the accident reconstruction at all. None of it matches the scene very well in the least little way.
I am only 15 minutes in on the 5th episode of this podcast, so this might end up being addressed, but on a Disappeared episode that I saw on the ID channel, Maura's boyfriend, boyfriend's mom, and Maura's dad, and the narrators/investigators I believe if I remember correctly, talked about a voice mail that Maura left on her boyfriend's phone AFTER she disappeared that sounded like a girl whimpering and shivering and then cut off. Just wondered if anybody else had any information on that?
About the 1st call from the lady called Faith..."she said she saw a man in the car smoking a cigarette"...I think she just mistook Maura who is 5'7'' for being a guy. She didn't say she saw people in the car and one of them was smoking. It would be interesting if someone contacted her and asked her if she saw more than one person in the car. I don't understand why Lance and Tim automatically assume she is talking about seeing two people. IF someone had been smoking in the car there would have been cigarette ash in the ash tray or somewhere inside or outside the car. Has this been checked on? I really like the podcast because it brings out a lot of interesting thoughts but when you have statements with a persons name & questions it would be great if someone could talk to the person to clarify. The lady said later she wasn't sure if the person was smoking. She still didn't mention more than one person being there. It seems like that would have been something significant that the police would have asked about.
Y'all aren't smokers....believe me, as a 30+ year smoker, the first thing any heavy smoker would do after an accident is light a cigarette, maybe not sit and contemplate things, but I(and, I'm sure, most heavy smokers)would be smoking very soon after an accident.
Not saying there was anyone there, just saying that there is no reason to discount the assertion because a smoker wouldn't be smoking at that time.
I agree, great point
I realize I'm late to the party...but people can do all sorts of things to change their appearance, I mean, all you have to do is watch facebook videos to see how people can completely transform their appearance. Especially women. And in a small town where nobody knows you, you wouldn't have to work too hard to get a job, secure a cheap room, lay low, and eventually blend in. If she wanted to stage a disappearance, in 2004, it wouldn't have been impossible.
i had a accident in my car where i smashed my head on the windsreen. i got out, then i lit up one cig after another. i was really lucky.
Cottage is also a local hospital (Woodsville NH Cottage Hospital) Located less than 10 miles from the site of the crash
Awareness for the N.H. teen! And we gotta raise awareness for the Vermont vanished teen so lets raise awareness for all teens/peace from LA
Now a random person at the gas station could have put the rag in her tailpipe and her dad must be a psychic then. How'd he know it was there in that case. Sheesh it's so frustrating listening to these guys. They just say anything that works for that moment and don't consider any other factors worst part is they have it on TH-cam for the world in a world where they've even discussed how the telephone game works and giving no consideration to that before posting these videos.
And it's funny they continue to say they're going to hold off on theories and want everyone else too do the same but everything they say is just their theory some with absolutely no evidence to support it or evidence that actually contradicts it.
one question I have is did that find any cigarettes butts by or in the car?
I don't mean to sound stupid but when you get into an accident is it normal for the airbags on both sides of the car to go off? I thought that they only went off if there was a person sitting in the seat? Or is this something that is in newer cars because they have the weight sensor so they know if you have your seatbelt on and stuff like that?
+Melissa Margis I doubt a 1996 saturn has passenger detection. Remember that's 20 years ago now.
The guys are presuming precision in the timeline. and there being a guy smoking with her seems unlikely. Why be riding with her when he could potentially be seen with her and then hide? And then, where did he go? Now you got two missing people. No. Been many cases of people appearing coherent in the aftermath of a car crash only to suddenly act dazed, confused, wander away.
trailmarker #6 yeah I agree with you. Plus there were no footprints in the snow and the dogs didn’t track anything away from the site. Doesn’t add up. I keep going back to the no footprints things as important.
I lean towards her having a friend drive their car behind her because they planned to help her disappear, and that person picked her up after the accident since she was panicked about getting in trouble. I feel like if she'd walked off and died of hypothermia, her body would have been found by now. I mean, I can't see her getting super far...
And I feel like an abduction would have been heard by someone, especially the woman who called 911 about the accident. I also feel like someone trying to calmly talk her into letting them give her a ride would have been seen as well. It would have taken several minutes. But a friend could very quickly just pull up and have her jump in.
Her packing up her belongings could be because she was planning on completing suicide, but it also could have been done because she decided to run off and didn't wanna leave tons of stuff for family to have to pack up.
Obviously I could be totally off. That's just what I tend to think happened.
smokers smoke when stressed def smoke right after the crash
For sure would've smoked a cigarette and have after car accidents.
And in reference to the rag in the tail pipe... If you believe the theory that an opportunistic killer happened upon her at the gas station and stuffed a rag in her tail pipe to stall her or effect her in some way, why does her father so quickly come forward with the claim that he told her to do this? You'd have to believe that not only did this killer happen to pick this particular girl on this particular day after she's set herself up to disappear at least for a week (per the emails she sent to professors), but that said killer is also following her, unnoticed, long enough for her to happen to break down in a fairly secluded area because of something from old wives tale her father heard and had her do.
I'm a smoker, and the first thing I do after most anything (esp. an accident), is smoke a cigarette. Just saying.
If someone other than Maura put the rag in the pipe why would her dad have mentioned it and said he told her to do it, or even have known there was a rag in the pipe?
Ok, so I know I'm years behind and this comment has prob been made by many, but arghhhh I have to vent it. Her dad admitted he told her to put the rag in the tailpipe so why all the discussion about a killer putting it in there when she stopped for gas. And, you keep saying what are the odds a serial killer would pick a victim, at random with no planning, whose life is a mess ( my paraphrasing). History has shown many serial killers have chosen distracted women, weak women and have done it not because that planned it out but rather because the opportunity presented its self. Sorry had to comment because yelling at my computer wasn't cutting it.
ehhhh. I've worked at small town bars. They still want ID. I find it implausible that she would make it that far without money. To set up a new life without money, as a 21 year old with a penchant for so much trouble? ?? She got in trouble so much in that one or two year period, and then nothing?
yeah, I live in a township of less than 500 ppl, it doesn't make any difference ID wise. even family owned places. they have to file taxes, and tax your wages, and in order to do that, during the hiring process you must present two forms of valid ID, and typically one of them must verify your ssn. for example, drivers license and social security card, or social security card and birth certificate. ive never worked anywhere that didn't require 2 ID documents.
Yeah, I totally agree. I think the podcasters here are overestimating how much women can get away with based on looks and charm. Get out of a traffic ticket? Maybe, sure. But not getting a bartending job. And talk about a job where you would be seen by lots of people all the time!
An important aspect of this case, any case really to be honest, is the dichotomy of “possible” versus “likely.” Is it possible Maura could have wanted to disappear? Yes. Is it the most statistically likely? Probably not. How many people a year, even in a span of five or ten years, completely abandon their life and start anew especially at 21 years old? Surely there’s no statistic because these people want to remain hidden, but statistically how many of these people are eventually found out that we can draw a conclusion from? You could probably count them on your fingers. Somebody who’s maybe 30 or 40 who has a seedy history, in my opinion, would probably be the most likely candidate for wanting to fake their own death or disappearance to escape some sort of punishment, and although Maura has clearly gotten into some trouble in the past, we don’t know any history of major crime or even trauma in Maura’s life to cause her to run away. Her father is kind of right, she had lots of things to live for. By most accounts her and her boyfriend had a fairly good relationship, her family had its problems like any family but there’s no reason to suspect any sort of massive cover up or abuse that would make Maura never want to see them again, and this is after fourteen years time when any sort of scandal has had plenty of time to come to a head.
Honestly? Everybody knows a Maura. I went to school with a bunch of girls like Maura and I even see a bit of her in myself. She’s smart, but she’s not *smart.* she can be a west pointer and a successful student but honestly to me it looks like she simply lacks common sense and acts on impulse. It seems to me like Maura liked the party scene, i think that after her drunk driving accident and (IMO) quite possible hit and run on campus she wanted to get away, she wanted another party to take her mind off things, but not forever as we clearly saw she was trying to look for a hotel or condo in Stowe. Coupled with the alcohol, buying gas, taking money out of the ATM, not telling anybody where she’s going, messaging her professors she’d be gone due to family emergency, It sounds to me like she was going somewhere to throw a party without her parents knowing, as I’m sure at this time after Maura’s previous incidents and erratic behavior her parents were probably checking her whereabouts and her bank balance constantly. She was constantly spending money and seemed to be planning for future events, if she wanted to take her own life, why go so far? Why get a hotel or condo if you’re just going to go die in the mountains? I could understand maybe she planned to kill herself in the hotel but in that case, why not do it at a hotel closer to Amherst, why go three hours away? One theory I clearly can’t get on board with is suicide even though it’s probably statistically the most likely answer. Given the evidence, is it possible? Yes. Is it the most likely compared to accounts of the scene of the crash and the fact that fourteen years later there’s still no body? Probably not.
I 100% agree with this outlook. Our minds are wired to fill in the blanks when we don't have all the information which is why a lot of this speculation is turning into elaborate conspiracy theories. Her pattern of behavior (prone to accidents, poor decision making, impulsive nature), clear lack of resources (no money, shitty car) , and age (21) make it highly unlikely that Maura conspired this master plan to go off grid and maintain a brand new life for 15 years. I don't know enough to draw any conclusions but it seems far more plausible that she made a last minute trip out of town (for whatever reason), got into yet another accident and ended up the victim of something very unfortunate. Whether that be a predator or something less ominous, it seems like there isn't enough information to support a concrete conclusion so far.
Solid concrete imaginings are all we have -nothing else will solve this!
So if her fate is victim of opportunistic killer, why include the rag in the tailpipe in the scenario when it's already been established that her father did that? I think she was found asleep in the woods, she probably passed out after drinking all that booze.....
Maura's dad did not put the rag in the Saturn's tailpipe, instead he advised Maura to do it to conceal smoke from the car's exhaust.
@@MissingCSM Right, sorry, that is what I meant. But in these stranger abduction theories there was mention of someone following her and putting the rag in there to cause an accident. Anyway, I'm sure there is a log more.....I do have like 100 episodes to go.
Abduction at crash site seems highly unlikely; next to homes with direct line of sight, not to mention the passing vehicles. . also, abducting this girl would not be an easy task:5 ft 7
a solid 120 pound athlete not to mention army/west point basic training. She also could have locked car doors from perpetrator.
27 minutes...be on look out for female 5 foot 7 on foot, " she was being pursued" leaving the scene of accident , this bother's me. during this phase, she was not endangered as missing, "she was being pursued".
A thought on the rag in the tailpipe: if someone had placed the rag in her tailpipe at the gas station, how would her father have known about it?
Why would she leave the accident to "sober up" and take a bottle of alcohol with her? Also, she was keen on stealing things, maybe she stole an ID from another student or was given one by a friend? I grew up in a small town in Northern California, in the 70's this local couple kidnapped a hitchhiker and kept her locked in their basement and in a box under their bed for like 10 years and nobody knew. The woman had Stockholm syndrome and eventually she was working outside the home and coming back to them every night, her name was Colleen Stan. This couple would drive around looking for an opportunity to kidnapped someone (they even built this box for the car to lock the victims head in ), their are some F***ed up people in this world.
If there was some kind of conspiracy to disappear shared with friends, the odds that someone would talk and the truth would out is almost 100% especially after this period of time.
He'll I watched a TH-cam video of this guy calling brain gratata guys phone until he sent him to voicemail then entered something then changed it to what he wanted and it was hilarious
The missing Kahlua bottle is very interesting. Regarding that bottle being used as a weapon, doesn't Kahlua only use plastic bottles for their product? If so, that wouldn't be the best weapon and if she tossed it in the area where she had the accident someone should have found it by now.
They have glass bottles too.
"Rag in the tailpipe" should be a drinking game. 7 minutes in.....4 times already
I could see confusing a red light in the car, like from a phone, for a cigarette, but it's definitely strange that the 911 caller specifically said she saw a MAN smoking a cigarette. It's odd... But if there was a guy with her, that would mean that 2 people vanished. I feel like that makes less sense.
Edited to add: Vanished ON FOOT. If a man drove up and picked her up, that would make sense. But a man being in the car when the accident happened, and the 2 of them disappearing on foot, doesn't make much sense...
I would like to question her drinking and how much her father knew about her drinking, also why did a pretty girl with everything going for her drink, she was a runner, by looking at her pictures it looks like she enjoyed life, she enjoyed school, there wasn't much upset in her life and childhood, she was well loved and still is, she liked art, she looks very confident, her smile is amazing and lights up her cheeks, she has a sense of humour, what a woman.. I understand partying for a young lady, I'm not one myself, lady or partier but I can imagine, she looks conscientious, thoughtful did I mention her sense of humour lol, a slight cheekiness I detect.. Only a wonderful father and mother could forge a stunning person like this... Her father has got to be heartbroken and vindictive against those that tarnish her image, she has no malice in her pictures, I can't see any depression in her pictures, I can see cheeky, she seems sensible and reliable, her dress sense is really good.. Of course these are just a selection of pictures on Google pictures but what a wonderful girl and if she is out there I hope she is having a fantastic and wonderful life..
I think everything has been blown out of proportion a little, I think she found the credit card and held onto it for a while just looking at it, thinking "should I do it" she would have questioned herself a lot, she probably heard about the credit card scene and decided to have a go, the fact that she was semi-arrested would have produced that image that was taken, wide eyes and tight lips, I don't think is a big deal, lots of us get in trouble for petty things and get let off sometimes, I think she definitely likes talking and probably talked her way out which is understandable and plausible. The officer was when questioned about it was probably disgusted that somebody would mention that or his wife was standing nearby.
But as we all know life can change in an instant.. The question then comes how would she deal with this based on her character. Let's say she hit someone in her car or 3 of them which is an unlucky number by the way.. Nervous Nelly.? No, I don't think so, by looking at her picture when she got semi-arrested she is calm with her shoulders down.. I don't think she would have run given her achievements, this Girls got spirit, she definitely would have confided in her dad, I think she definitely would have got arrested if she did all 3, she does seem to have a scatty side but it's small, I smile when I think about her character. She is not weak minded she is strong minded. Placid in nature but at 75% round about, maybe a bit lower. This is the kind of girl that you would love to bring home to your parents if you are a man or woman.
I bet her father doesn't know anything about her vanishing, lots of things tell me his a good dad and he would do anything for his daughter, over the years he would have come vindictive and angry, especially with the amount of Internet interest.. Perfect for bullies and they will feed off him and the cycle continues and continues. He probably lashes out at people "in his own way" people may misunderstand him and try to tarnish his name, he may have done some stupid things that people jump on and they love to rub it in, especially one cyberbully, it was a cold hard hit at the father, I sussed it from a short video of it I saw, but then to my amazement after watching the whole thing I saw that cheeky smile, a nonserious smile, this was a senseless attack on the father, publicity come second.
By the way the commentary and the sensibility of you lot is good, I like how you come back to sensibility land lol. I can tell you want to add your theories but you bring it back in to facts, brilliant I love facts.
I believe a "man smoking a cigarette" is crucial... everything that is crucial in this case seems to have us leading in another direction.
That rag in the tailpipe would've either blocked her car from starting almost immediately or at best caught fire within a couple minutes. More likely this rag-in-the-tailpipe was done by the perp that picked her up when she was disabled.
Did Alden Olson ever agree to be interviewed if so which one should I click on
Could the cigarette light be a flashlight instead? One of those laser lights ppl often have hanging from their keychains back then? That kind of light could be mistaken for a cigarette from a long distance away.
So, another's interesting episode that brings up more questions. If someone had been smoking in the car, even in those temperatures, the cops would have smelled it when they arrived. Also, a smoker DEFINITELY would have lit up after an experience like that to calm down. My usual complaint about the bickering is back after taking a few episodes off: this week it's around the missing bottle of Kahlua. One of the podcasters kept saying, "you could assume that" in a tone that sai, "but..." Without offering another suggestion. I almost threw my iPod across the room at that point. Also: has any report ever talked about whether or not there was a bag with clothes or anything else in the car?
How do you get paid with a random sin.
I think that if someone other than Maura put the rag in the tailpipe it would have had to be her father. He knew the rag was in there before anyone else did, right? If she was killed by an opportunistic killer, I don't think they put the rag in the tailpipe. Her dad wouldn't have known about it ahead of time then.
English is not my language, so I apologize that is not written correctly.
But I hope is understandable. Thank You.
I think she have a problem, a problem she did not share with anyone. Maybe she was pregnant and want to solve that, taken some days to do the abortion or take her life.
It pays my attention that she never call to the insurance for the form she will fill out that night toghether with her father. There is no mention that she contact the car agency or the insurce company. Maybe because she new she wont came back looks like more to a suicide.
Agree that she intent to confuse everyone not let them know where she was going.
As a matter off fact she was looking a place to stay, did several calls looking for a place, she was decide to do it, so she already was on that mission.
The decision to finish her life wasn`t easy the way she was acting all those day where some peopple notice, drinking a lot, nervous, no pay attention, doing the things wrong, lost.
But some else did it for her, before she rich the resort, hotel where she will take her life.
I think she gave a right to someone, or from the gas station was follow, he or thet hit her car to make her loose control.
She was rappe an kill that same afternoon and left in the vast forest for ever.
An the bottle of Bailiyes was the expensive one of the one she bought, so the killer took it with the money she recently widraw.
She is not on this world sinse that feb 9, 2004.
I was delighted with the program, congratulations.
Lore Alva I waver between suicide / accidental death in the woods and abduction. And of-course if she was abducted she's dead too and as you said she probably died that same night. I would say I was sure she ran into the woods, but for what happened with the search dog. The case is extremely frustrating.
Aeiralkate. Well! we both are agree even suicide, you say maybe an accident,
I discard the car accident for the explanation that the car hits do not match the way the car was positioned at the end, So I say that someone followed, made her stop, she tried to escape and hit her car to made her lose control,
Also if it had been an accident the body would be there, but it was not.
She was kidnapped, raped and murdered that day and her body hidden in the great forest. (This is a strong theory for me).
The theory of suicide to me does not convince me.
If she was gone it to commit suicided she would do it in the hotel room where she never arrived.
I think that she had a big problem that disturbed her and intended to solve it.
Something serious maybe, as I said before pregnant and not for her boyfriend, but I do not give force to this
The theory that she made the whole parapet to escape, to get lost without a trace. I do believe.
But also the fact that there was no mentioned that she contact with the car insurance company to fill out late that night together with her father. ( this match with a person that is not considre to come back)
For me, she was going to solve that problem (know what it was).
But on those lonely roads before arriving at her destination, almost beginning his journey, she encounters a madman, either inviting him for a passage or she was followed after the stop in the gas station. For me this is what happened.
Lore Alva If she intended to kill herself it doesn't preclude the possibility that she was murdered. She could well have been suicidal or recklessly out of control and this would have played right into the hands of some predator. Maggie Frehling who presented the recent documentary on Oxygen "The disappearance of Maura Murray" believes it can be solved. I don't think so but I'm guessing she knows more than me! A lot of the episodes of that documentary are available on TH-cam at the moment. They are well worth a look, because they're more up to date than the older 'Maura' shows like the original "Disappeared" documentary. Plus she has access to people in the case we've hitherto only read about.
That's why is a mistery.
I Started to listen this last week I listened until episode 5, it took me half day an part of the night.
The traces that Maura left previous to her disappearance are pretty odd.
either way she left a lot traces, that take us to any of the different conclusion could happen to Maura.
They mentioned the father slightly, He should be investigated deep.. I
I`ll continuo episode 6 now, let`s see is something new is reveal
Lore Alva Well I didn't know episode 6 has aired? I had to rely on links people post on TH-cam for episodes 3 and 5, because they're not on TH-cam in full at time of writing. I think Maura's life was falling apart. She was headed for a DUI conviction which meant her nursing career was over before it began. She'd boxed up all her stuff at college and this to me is getting her affairs in order. She'd headed to a place with happy memories from simpler times - her childhood. She took 5 boxes of sleeping pills and a shedload of booze. I know what that tells me. I think her Dad was right first time when he told LE she was planning the "squaw walk". Lots of humiliating things had happened in succession. I think she wanted out. But a passing predator could have wanted something else before she was able to kill herself. A sad story.
I don't think a killer noticing her and going after her is that unlikely. Some people who like hurting other people have a bit of a radar for those who are troubled and distracted. He might have noticed her and realized that she could be easily victimized.
Never automatically assume that a dude smoking a cigarette couldn't possibly be a cross country runner.
It's possible. I ran in high school, I've seen it before.
Especially very young lungs, of course.
I will bet you she really did hit and run that kid that night as the car damage fits this case and shape of a person run over. She Got very panicked about it, and all the pressure in her life causes her to skip town to Canada. Abandons her dads car and starts fresh in another country.
I've always thought she was either on the run or someone has her hidden somewhere in a dark place.
6:50 Fred Murray told the police he put the rag in the tailpipe. Maura's mysterious trip did not end because of a motor failure but because she crashed.
Again it's contradictory, does she want people people think she's going to disappear because that's what was suggested first with her packing up her stuff and calling around to different places or does she want to make it look like shes not trying to disappear by making plans with friends for Feb 12th...
Is Maura's dad or any other family member yelling out "Hey you're wrong, my daughter is still missing"?
+jackie scorpio the dad
Canada doesn't have SSNs. They have CINs.
I've been following the podcast with interest, but I feel there's a lot of supposition and speculation regarding events and motives. I think there's been a tendency in this case to search for and ascribe darker motives on Maura's part than there probably was.
Nicholas Krancher There is absolutely no need to be combative. Yes, what we factually know about Maura's case can fit inside a thimble but conjecture can only go so far. Relying on it too much can lead down too many rabbit holes that only serve to muddy things (look at how long the Vasi angle has been clung to with not even circumstantial evidence placing Maura near the hit and run). In this particular case conjuncture and supposition often tends to be regarded as fact. I believe that the podcasts would do well to be a bit tighter in their presentation instead of speculating whether or not Maura was some sort of criminal mastermind.
ladylothwen I agree with you, This is not a "serious attempt at finding the truth" a la Serial. This is just 2 guys blabbing on and on about what MIGHT have hapenned to Maura Murray. I dont think they have nothing new to add to this other than wild speculation with no base whatsoever. That said, Im interested by this case so hearing people talk about it is interesting to me.
PS: Im not a smoker but smokers smoke to relax themselves in stressful situations, if my ex bf were in a car accident, the first thing he would do is light up a cigarrette.
SuperMariela78 I thought the same thing when they were talking about that last week.
+ladylothwen That area has been thoroughly searched repeatedly. Even if she were to crawl into something the animals would have scattered the bones. A cadaver dog would have found something.
How can you even mention contradictory accounts of what she bought when there's a receipt in the car that says exactly what she bough and she hadn't been seen by anyone else since, to contradict what she bought. Like who's contradicting this and why include that in the podcast when it clearly can't be disputed if they have the receipt.
may be she finished the bottle while driving