Tiwanaku Part 1: The City
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- In the first millennium CE, one city was ascending to unseen heights in the Lake Titicaca basin, the city of Tiwanaku. Find out what makes the site of Tiwanaku so amazing and how it became a thriving cultural center in the southern Andes.
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Sources and Bibliography: docs.google.com/document/d/1N...
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I found a newspaper article that say that the walls at Kalasasaya were rebuilt between 1957 and 1978. In 2019 they found a series of photographs taken during the reconstruction. This pictures were presented by the Center of Archeological Investigations at Tiahuanco.
Oooo!!! Can you please send that article or give me the date and publication of that? I would love to add that to Tiwanaku part 2.
@@AncientAmericas Sure! The article is from Peru21. The title is: “Bolivia: fotografías inéditas muestran que las ruinas de Tiahuanaco fueron modificadas”. I just googled it and found similar articles form other news outlets.
@@danesgch You are my hero!!
@@AncientAmericas I hope it’s useful. I just thought that searching in Spanish might unearth some local news or blogposts about the incident. Anyways, I really like your channel, I just found it today but I binged all the videos. Keep up the good content!
@@danesgch Thank you! I don't speak Spanish so I'm overly dependent on English language sources.
Bless the algorithm for showing me this channel.
Bless you for your support!
This
Yes❤
No kidding! I feel like I know very little about ancient American culture and history and have been looking to scratch that itch! This channel is incredible!
bless
You underestimated how excited I would be to hear the words "raised field agriculture"
Everybody should be pumped about raised field agriculture!
Suka kollus!
I really like how you deal with conspiracy theories on this channel. It's brought up and immediately dismissed without elaboration. You let us know that people are saying wild stuff about something while not giving it any, even accidental, credibility.
Love your videos!!!!!!!
Thank you!
I’m Bolivian myself and I’ve been to tiawanaku . There’s a small museum right next to the site and inside there’s a 20 foot statue . You cannot take pictures because they don’t allow and there is security but please go to the museum the statue is worth it . It was amazing not too mention the cheap souvenirs and the nice lil town that gives off a south western Texas town from the 1800s . Honestly this place is like our hidden gem . It’s literally in a desert surrounded by mountains , very beautiful views . They also have guides that speak English and know more about the site than most experts on TH-cam!!!
I've been to the Isla del Sol. Fascinating place. The men who live on the islands weave brightly colored wool hats that are so tightly and uniformly woven that they can hold water. This is done by hand. I watched a 14 year old kid who was learning this skill weave and re-weave a single stitch like five or six times until it was absolutely perfect. It probably took him over a month to finish one hat. Super super interesting, beautiful and unique place.
Unfortunately, the locals also told me that Lake Titicaca is almost sterile due to the introduction of European trout to the lake by the Spanish. Apparently, the trout ate everything else in the lake and then proceeded to die en-masse, leaving the lake completely barren. I didn't see a single fishing boat the entire time I was there. Imagine not seeing any fishing boats on Lake Ontario. *That's* how huge this lake is. Incredible the amount of ecological damage human beings with "good intentions" can wreak upon our fragile world.
Just a note. Lake Ontario is more than twice the size of Lake Titicaca. Not that the lake isnt large, but Lake Ontario is called a great lake for good reason.
Being a third-generation Fairbanks Alaska I hate to see when they introduced species that devastating area
Oh god, I didn't know the lake was "barren" because of invasive species introduced by the Spanish, that's terrible! Here in USA we have invasive species also which have screwed up nature in different parts of the country, introduced by clueless people who had no idea how bad of a move it would be, "nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action"
I've just discovered your channel and I'm absolutely hooked. You give a lot of great information in a very easy to follow and interesting way. Keep going man, you're gonna be big
Thank you!
Tiwanaku was a major metals processing facility from minerals that were mined from the mountains that encircle lake Titicaca. The lake was used to transport the mineral ore to the process facility in Puma Punku which has water channels that once connected to the lake. This region produced large amounts of Gold, Silver, Copper, and Tin.
Lol like a white boy would have ANY idea of what that world was like. The arrogant ego you white people have is completely insane.
I'm fascinated by native cultures of the Americas, came across your channel and subbed immediately, you sir are doing great work!
It is unbelievable that I lived all my life in South America and never heard of this city before. I guess we need more and more communication about this subject as I guess the the misconception imputed by the colonization on these civilizations was overwhelmingly distorting
Yea andean history is largely brushed over. Even in Peru, anything besides incas are hardly taught at all.
@@shiny_teddiursa they are still finding/digging up new sites of the ancient structures
I had the privilege of visiting Lake Titicaca and Tiwanaku. I can't express how impressive both were. The Americas have a fascinating history and I am so enjoying these documentaries.
Thank you!
I love this channel.
Thanks!
Another excellent presentation from Ancient Americas. Fact-based information on Tiwanako
is hard to come by in English, but your documentaries are helping
enlighten us all!
Always a pleasure to hear from the great gringo loco! Thanks again for the gigapan!
I have been wanting to find longer documentary videos on Pre-Columbian civilization like this for so long. This channel needs more attention!
Thank you for commenting and driving the algorithm!
If you like this one, check out the Fall of Civilizations podcast - really good episodes on the Inca and the Mexica.
I moved to Cusco, Peru and have been off the grid. Happy to see a bunch of new videos from the past six months. If you attempt to cover the rise of the Incas in Cusco, i can send you pictures. So many different architecture styles, Im a 30 minute walk from a set of ruins that has the remains of tiwanaku style raised field agriculture canals. But the area also has Wari, classic Inca and Imperial Inca structures and terracing still intact. 🤩
Thats awesome! I'd love to travel to Peru someday. Thanks for the offer. If I need anything, I'll let you know!
after hearing "lake titicaca" i realized i still have the mental maturity of a 10 year old deep inside
Titikaka is an Aymara word which means "Feline that hunts rabbit". If you look the shape of the lake you will understand why
'Caca' I think I heard means poo-poo in some labguage
My favourite content to listen to while working. Thank you.
Love your channel ✨ as a South American, I find it really important to study and learn about our ancient civilizations, it’s so interesting! Thanks for all the quality videos and information.
Thank you!
I mean I would absolutely love if you put out hour long episodes. I would watch and enjoy every single minute!
Raised field agriculture. Best part of the video. Overall great intro to a great and mysterious society.
It's my favorite part too!
Criminally underrated m8
Thanks!
I am bolivian, just went to tiwanaku last month, and the masonry is increidlbe, but this early 20th century photo is blowing my mind. Whoe rebuilt the walls? they really seem like they are there forever and they fit incredibly. You think it might have been more of a stonehenge structure? The blocks fit so good
Check out the pinned comment. Someone was able to figure out when it was reconstructed. It was part of a government program in the 60's.
I really liked this video, it reminded me of the research I did for an anthropology course. I especially liked the part about the raised ag fields (waru waru)
Subscribed.....this is a great channel; I prefer this over NatGeo's endless (tense) musical scores layered on top of the narration and contrived pauses for commercial breaks (where 30% of the content is then immediately regurgitated).
Thank you! I'm honored to be the channel of choice of such a discerning viewer.
That's a great description of NatGeo's shows.
I love these videos. Amazing. Ancient American civilization is underappreciated.
Thank you!
Forgoing the content of Ancient Aliens, Chariots of the Gods and similar programs and films, you can get a great perspective of the area.
Very well-made and interesting! Keep at it, no doubt in my mind that your channel will soon blow up
Thank you!
Thanks for the videos. This has been great to listen to on the long drive to work
Something about your videos are great for falling asleep to. Not in that they’re boring. However your tone and delivery is incredibly soothing
Thanks! Glad I can help someone get a good night's sleep.
I am just incredibly impressed with your channel!! It is truly amazing!!
Thank you!
Thanks for making this part of history more accessible for us curious ones, keep it up!!!
Thank you!
I discovered this channel today and immediately I subscribed it. I am taking live virtual tours with a tour guide in Bolivia who has live virtual tours of different regions of his country including one in this site and it is amazing!Your video add more information to the tours that I am taking. Thank you very much!
You're welcome! Where can I find those virtual tours?
@@AncientAmericas They are live-streaming virtual tours in the platform BeamZ. The next Tiwanaku show will be on September 18th at 1:30 pm EDT. I highly recommend the show and the tour guide (Renan) and also the shows from the Peruvian guide (Mike). Both are specialized in Inca culture and speak Aymara, Spanish, and English. The shows are in English, and in my opinion, have a high quality. I have learned a lot with both guides about Inca culture. If you are interested in some kind of collaboration with the guides for your channel, I could provide the name of their companies. Thank you!
idk where you came from, but I'm glad I found you. Thank you for this channel and all the work and love you put into it.
Thank you!
Exceptional content from a natural teacher 👌
Thank you!
Good information. I'm looking forward to the next part.
I am peruvian and I´m really impressed with the accuracy of your documental ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and thanks for not talk about aliens
Thank you!
Thanks for taking me under consideration for the Conquistador's voice over.
I've become a huge fan of your videos since.
Best
Andres
Hey! It's lovely to hear from you again! I'm so glad you're enjoying the content!
Just stumbled on your channel! And I’m glad I did. I love history and there are far too few for ancient American history.
Thank you!
Excellent! I'm anxiously waiting for the second part.
Nice to see such a well made video on the subject! Im from la paz and have visited tiwanaku many times thanks for the vid
You're welcome!
This video is just amazing. I was just blowned away the whole time. Just SUPER interesting. 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you!
Another very good program.
Just found this channel and I’m enjoying it a lot. Thank you for this amazing content!
You're welcome!
Another enjoyable video. The raised fields and canals were ingenious. I was wondering, as I'm still new to the channel, if you have any videos on the Aymara people? A few years ago I visited their community in Peru. They live on floating islands on Lake Titicaca. They used reeds to construct the floating islands and the huts they lived in. They have their own distinct language as well. Some of the vocabulary reminded me of Japanese. As the community was so isolated, they were able to maintain their traditions and language intact. The only way I was able to communicate and learn about them was because there was one girl within the community who spoke Spanish and our guide as well. It was a wonderful experience for me to be invited into their homes and learn more about them. I really enjoyed it. Again, thank you for the wonderful work you are doing.
That sounds like an amazing experience! Sadly I do not have an video on the Aymara.
The uro people live on the lake.
Raised fields I believe it was discovered by Wisconsin Professor Alan Kolata, he also discovered a monolith a tall one that has lost it is top (head). They call the raised fields Camellones, and he convinced the locals to use that farming technique again and it was a total success. Kolata concluded that the people in the past knew and understood the climate and adapted to it and its changes. His book has a lot of new evidence of ancient people near and around Tiwanaku.
Ceremonial city center Sounds super sweet
Btw I'm really glad to see you have grown in subscribers and views since Norte Chico, when I discovered this great channel. You're still far from what you deserve, but I hope your slow but continuing growth is encouraging. Keep it up!
Thanks! I plan on it!
Awesome, as always! Thank you for these videos.
You're welcome!
Amazing. Thank you.
Subscribed to every channel in your channels* section. Thank you for your content, I’m learning so much.
Thank you!
Awesome ! Really enjoying your content good work
Thank you!
you have a strange fan club here, everybody is so amazed with your work..
Just commenting to help you get the algorithm bless 🙏 keep up with the good work man!
Muchos gracias!
great documentary. Thank you
You're welcome!
This could potentially be one of my favorite channels, keep up the good work
Thanks!
Hell yeah.
The creator graces us with his presence!
Awesome channel! Thank you!
You're welcome! Thank you for watching!
Honestly you are the best Channel about pre-columbian americas
Color me flattered. Thank you!
Really enjoy the content you put out - it's difficult to find accessible information on pre-Colombuian America! I'm constantly intrigued by these videos, and often have a look through the sources to see if there's any more info. Thanks for the work you put in! By the way, splitting it into two parts seems a good idea, and I don't think there's an issue with it if it helped you get the videos out more easily :)
Thank you!
Keep it up man, this is for sure going to take off! Great work and great presentation.
Thank you!
Gotta say, I was shocked at finding your channel, shocked at the quality of the few videos you have and shocked at the few subscribers you have (more disappointed really). I've now binged through your whole catalogue, and it was great, can't remember the last time I found a channel I enjoyed like yours and blazed through in a day.
I'd like to make a recommendation, if you don't mind. Not for now, of course, but like an idea for a future video: I've been a bit fascinated with the Marajoara culture and the Kuhikugu archaeological site in and around the Brazilian Amazon, as a Brazilian myself, but haven't read much on them. I'd be very happy to see, if possible, any video in the future on the pre-columbian Amazon, but I'll be happy with wahatever good work you bring out, I'm sure!
Hopefully this comment pleases the algorithm.
First of all, thank you!! It always delights me when people really enjoy my content. Second, I actually have Marajoara culture and Kuhikugu on my episode list. They are still a long ways off but I've got them in my sights.
TH-cam algorithms hide so many OTHER GOOD CHANNELS..NICE JOB ....MUCH LUV FROM N.AUGUSTA S.C
Thank you!
Hope your channel gets the attention it deserves :)
Don't worry. I'm pleased with any attention it gets.
Nice work 💯
Thank you!
Impressive presentation! As some what of a Pedro de Cieza de Leon acolyte and researcher, I also recommend Ephraim Squire’s 1860s narrative describing Tiwanaku. He mentions an old Aymara person evidently paid to watch Squire’s every move, since grave robbing was a long tradition in the area. The inhabitants of Peru viewed all of Squire’s archeological work as a search for treasure!
Thank you! I've never read Ephraim Squire's account but I've seen the sketches he did and they are awesome.
Thank you
Good stuff!
Thank you!
I'm really glad someone recommended you're channel to me. I've been rewatching all you're videos because of how well done they are. I'm trying to learn more about pre columbian civilizations so I can better understand a small part of my heritage. Keep up the fantastic work! 💖
Thank you!
"It should not be called a pyramid but a man-made mountain"
But what if Pyramids around the world are actually man-made mountains?
Like the pyramid of Cholula.
Semantics
Pyramids must be that shape, (above a certain height level,) because masonry structures collapse under their own weight with any other shape.
But, many cultures have Sacred Mountain concepts. So they like it very much. :)
That is why pyramids are found all over the world. Sacred mounds too.
11:33 Each tenon head is unique AND no two are alike? No way!!!! 😆 …your channel is a new fave!
Thank you!
@@AncientAmericas You’re welcome! I’m going to watch Part 2 now. Btw, conch is pronounced “conk”. :)
Well aren't you a precious lil hidden gem...thanks for the knowledge bro !!!
Thank you!
This has been such a wonderful series, I have wanting to learn about the history of the american continents for a while not a stumbled upon you. Great videos! One note at 24:00. When you mention that water was a poor conductor of heat, I think you meant to say it had a high thermal heat capacity! Water is a fairly good conductor of heat and is used for many heat exchange applications. Air is the poor conductor of heat (hence air filled isolation)
Thanks! I checked this with my brother who is an engineer and according to him: water is usually classified as a poor heat conductor especially when it's compared to metals. In some situations, you can use it as a heat exchange but those are specific.
Thank you for this interesting engaging content. I’m hooked
Glad you're enjoying it!
I am discovering your channel and I am happy to find a detailed presentation of the history of the Americas. You are describing these societies with a modern archaeological point of view using an open perspective to these ancient and mysterious cultures that we know so little. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
You're welcome!
Great job on this documentary. You have done an extremely amount of research! Thank you!
Thank you!
The raised fields style/Waru Waru is very similar to the Chinampas style found in Mesoamerica! Ingenious concept indeed!
Indigenous agriculture is amazing!
Commenting only to help the channel grow. Great job
Thank you! I appreciate it!
I'm so glad this channel exists, most of the information on you tube is either scanty and dull or some kind wild ancient aliens channel with lots of overdone music and a bunch of creepy old white men who simply won't admit natives built these places with their own hands.
Thank you!
I came across Tiahuanaco watching Chariots of the Gods? backs in the early 1970s (I was 8 or 9) and again watching Ancient Aliens. Depending on the version being watched, 1 hour 12 minutes or 1 hour 15 minutes, Chariots has a short segment on Tiahuanaco with work men digging on site. Ancient Aliens, ignore the alien material and you get great views of both locations (Pumapunku).
Thanks Tim! Here's hoping those of us viewers making games will put your advice to good use :D
Thanks for producing this 2 part series. It was well done and very informative. By the way, the word conch is pronounced konk. It is a marine snail and can not live in freshwater. So they would have had to bring the shells all the way up from the coast which also means that they fished in the Pacific Ocean or they could have acquired them in trade with another culture.
Thank you. Appreciate the clarification!
Amazing channel
Thank you!
Very well constructed documentary.I look forward to pt 2.
Wait no longer! Part 2 is here!
Hmm, well as a native guy myself I should mention that I definitely appreciate your videos. Most northern US and virtually all Canadian natives are unaware of the 'true' history of Native Americans. Unfortunately though, seemingly everything Native American is connected to straight up 'white' 'supremacist' "theories" that have been passed down for centuries and you'll find yourself having to mention the conspiracy nonsense almost every video which is pretty disturbing honestly.
So I'm from somewhere in the Canadian Shield, a sparsely populated area because of its lack of soil suitable for agriculture. Over the years, as I slowly uncovered the 'truth,' I realized that native people as a whole accomplished virtually everything that the entirety of the "Old World" did. In my area, according to the 2016 census, we were just under 50% of the total population in the electoral district and the figures are similar too throughout the northern halves of the prairie provinces and BC where natives are around 50% to nearly 100% of the total population of their district (riding). The further south you get the warmer it gets the longer the growing season as well and 'thus' more crops available for growing. In my area, right along the US border there is a relatively flat plain that stretches for about 100 km and has an area of at least 2700 square km. Even then the prairies aren't too far off as well. In Canada the native population is growing at a pretty fast pace and along the way I realized that the 'whole' of native achievements can provide everything we need to meet the "3 basic needs" of food, shelter, and clothing. That's my main interest in this channel, to learn more about what is, or was, and how it can be modified today to provide for the rapidly growing population.
For example, I live in Vancouver atm but there is a 'transit' station here called Brentwood Station that was built with these large laminated wood beams that are bent. You can see virtually the exact same thing in how the ends of birchbark canoes are created. Basically you get some wood and make thin slices lengthwise down almost down to the end, then you heat it, bend it, then tie it and it creates the front and back curves of the canoe. Even the 'ribs' of the canoe are made the same way but they're solid pieces though. Looking at the station though you can see how if you just separated the beams with walls you'd essentially have a modernized longhouse that can be either shrunk or enlarged (up to a point) to house people. Even within the 'Shield' too wood, water, and stone are in no short supply and so even 'Inca' terraces could be built. As for soil I imagine that one could create a business to sort of partially 'engineer' customized soil to fill the terraces with for whichever crop.
Here's a video from Japan where they built Inca-style terraces to grow potatoes, interesting stuff:
th-cam.com/video/9tZKIJjNOSo/w-d-xo.html
Very cool! There's definitely a lot out there to recover. If you think that raised field agriculture is cool, just wait til we go to the Amazon and discuss terra prieta. That's one of the greatest agricultural achievements that no one talks about. It's straight up world changing stuff.
@@AncientAmericas the permaculture movement of agriculture has taken up the usage of terra prieta but renamed it biochar.
@@ANTSEMUT1 Good to know! Thanks!
@@AncientAmericas no problem dude.
Raised Field Agriculture was the most exciting thing. AgriEngineering!
Stick around for the November episode. We'll have some awesome agro-engineering in that episode too.
Great presentation! I find south american, specifically, incan culture and history, fascinating. I once saw a video...it was an egyptian presentation but it mentioned lake titicaca, i forget why, but the presenter mentioned that she was sure that at one time in the past, lake titicaca ran all the way up to tiwanaku. In other words, tiwanaku was sort of a port on the lake. If you look at google earth you can see how this is possible. But i dont hear it mentioned alot. I dont know if you concur or even heard of this theory. I find it interesting. But some catastrophe happened there, a flood, a tsunami, a mud flood...that buried the city and puma punku. Looking forward to part two.
Thank you!
Ty
Subscribed.
Thank you!
Toltec and tiwanaku were in contact for sure
Maybe.
As a farmer, raised field agriculture is super exciting! I'm looking for all and any ancient farming methods
Might I recommend you look up terra prieta.
Alan Kolata Phd. I believe he is a professor at Wisconsin University , He wrote an entire book on Camellones "raised fields" and he convinced the locals to use the raised fields again, and it was a total succes. He said this people knew how to adapt to the inviroment and climate.
I never subscribed so fast
Welcome aboard!
YOU THE MAN! The ancient civilizations, the ancient souls and gods thank you my brother! I really loved the knowledge of the raise agriculture :) I found it a bit sad that you didnt gave us your theory on the masonery work... which in my view is the most important, most impressive and the highest knowledge! If you dont mind ... what is your theory on the masonery work ? -Wallace
Thanks! My theory is that the masonry is just normal stone masonry with stone tools. They just did it very carefully. Remember, plenty of other civilizations fashion their own precise stone work with stone tools, like ancient egypt for example. I'm sorry if it's a boring answer but when stone tools are your only tools, you get very good with them. Just because I'm terrible with a stone hammer and chisel doesn't mean it's impossible to be extraordinarily talented with them.
@@AncientAmericas well said I think the same for most part. Many many years, generations of trial and error and perfecting. Too many people have that thinking of I can't do it so it had to be aliens or some other civilization, whatever. Skills are lost all the time I see kids who don't know how to use a shovel . Around here in my father's generation and prior almost everyone could for most part build a house from foundation to top of roof ,these days not so much, again these kids can't even use a shovel how would they know how to build a house . Just one example of how certain skills can be mastered and lost within , practically overnight that took many years to master .
@@AncientAmericas Tiwanaku people had bronze and copper chisels, so metal tools, also metalurgy in south america andean region is older than 2000 BCE, the oldest golden necklace in the continent is from that time and also from tiwanaku/lake titicaca region
www.world-archaeology.com/world/south-america/peru/americas-oldest-jewellery/
At 17:10 I was fully expecting you to use a transformers transition effect
Great video, glad i found this channel. When you have the time you should do a video on chaco canyon and the ancestral Pueblos people in genral
Thank you! I've got them on my list!
I liked Mesa Verde better, it was somehow creepier.🗿
Something I never realized or even thought about, is by looking at the map, Tiwanku must flow via what ever river that is, into Titicaca, and there is no stream flowing out of it? That makes for some major springs flowing out somewhere, most likely on the Amazon upper basin.
You have a good eye. The truth is actually that Lake Titicaca is in an endorheic basin, meaning that the water has no way to drain to the sea. All the water that goes into that basin collects in the lake.
Seems a daunting and brave task to put together the history of a place with so much relocated and repurposed stone and artifacts. No wonder the explanations are all over the place. Great work, subbed, thank you.
Thank you! Part 2 is coming soon!
Arthur Posnansky did some incredible research in this area.
Your videos are the best, I would love to visit Tiwanaku in real life one day! 🇧🇴
I would love to visit it too!
It’s fascinating to me how much our understanding of Tiwanaku has shifted in the last 20 years. In the late 90’s and early 2000s, there was a lot of speculation and serious archaeology starting to happen, then it just seemed to disappear.
Early Pandemic Shutdown, I was curious to see what the latest was, only to find the internet rife with aliens and conspiracy… glad to see a real video.
It's a fascinating place to study!
I just want to thank you for smashing the conspiracy theories to death and giving credits to the Native Americans of the Americas thank you so much.... you're a good person I wish you the best of luck
I know this is beyond the topic, lol, but it is funny to see Pedro de Valdivia founding the city where I live, Santiago, at 1:47...that's pretty far away south from lake Titicaca 😂
Besides that, love this content, I've been in Titicaca and it's amazing, your channel is such a great find, especially as a Chilean
Thank you! You are very observant. I always love when people notice these things because I always tell myself when I use pictures that aren't completely accurate that someone will inevitably catch me red handed.
@@AncientAmericas don't worry! For us Chileans that painting is soooo iconic that's kind of impossible not to recognize it immediatly, which obviously is not the case for foreigners. I really commend you for having such well-researched videos, I've learnt so much already! I wish you could someday cover the cultures of the Southern Cone of the continent, like the Mapuche :)
@@franug thank you! The mapuche are on my long list. They'll get an episode someday.
Well done! The raised bed agriculture reminds me of the chinampa agriculture of central Mexico. Something similar was done in the eastern Yucatan, where aerial radar disclosed vast grids of irrigation canals and gardens. I also started wondering whether the concentric mounds at Poverty Point had anything to do with flooding, or maybe oxbows, which might have enabled surplus harvests to use for trade. When I binge on your videos the overarching themes just get more and more connected. I love it!
Thank you!
This is awesome! Any plans on eastern indigenous peoples - Haudenosaunee, maybe?