And Jokic does that thing we are BEGGING the best players to do: take mismatches to the block and destroy them. He has the midrange, the three, the passing AND if they put a small guy on him, he goes to the basket and either backs them down or goes over them.
He backs down even big guys, like NOBODY can guard him 1 on 1...the best 1 on 1 post scorer since Shaq, midrange, 3 ball, passing, floters etc...the most dominant offensive force since Lebron 2017...
@@xavierb9061 so the nuggets dedicated 4 defenders to cover two leaving 2 Suns wide open? Interesting. I must have been watching a different series than you bc I didn’t see that type of defense at all.
@@xavierb9061 Booker/Durant is a close #2 for me but projecting forward I don't see them wrestling away the top spot from Jokic/Murray especially when you factor in the fact that Murray is 8 years younger than Durant.
As a SUNS FAN I AGREE WITH THIS THEY DEFINITELY ARE (IN MY OPINION).... However MURRAY gets GROSSLY DISRESPECTED AND DONT GET ENOUGH CREDIT. Everybody and their mama on Joker jocks even though I have him the best player in the league it's SOO CLEAR when Murray is playing like ass THEY ARE DEFINITELY BEATABLE he definitely starts the engine and take it some miles before joker take it home. .
That Durant ship definitely sailed. He's great, and was arguably the best in the game for a time, which not many can say. But at this point KD isn't gonna bring it like several other younger guys.
and...all BIGS. PF/C x2 and then Centers x3 the small ball, death lineup by GSW, worked b/c they had an elite shooter who moved off ball on an super elite level -- in Curry. Outside of Curry, size matters.
Curry groupies consistently underrate him though. KD was in the best in the world conversation until Booker and Jokic were better than him in the playoffs. Update: 2:22 Bill riding Curry that hard after he was clearly outplayed by AD and was worse than a 38 y/o LeBron on a broken foot in that 2nd round series is so much more intolerable than Jacoby still being a KD guy.
@@ckq to not even name Giannis there is hilarious. The last 3 years best player in the world was between Giannis/Jokic the end! Availability matters! Now had Durant been healthier and played more I could hear you as his efficiency has been God tier and better passing/defense compared to OKC or even Warriors days, but Giannis & Jokic last 1 years just do more overall to impact the game. That said if healthier KD would have at least an argument though I’d still place him 3rd. LeBron was actually elite still in 2020-21 before Solomon Hill dove into his ankle with lakers 28-14 and number 1 defense in NBA (AD out previous month before injured and LeBron was MVP favorite in Vegas and top5 in DPOY odds too), but since then not as consistent and more injury prone.
Jacoby is crazy for thinking that KD is still in the “Best Player in the World” conversation. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ No way. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ He doesn’t come close to putting up the total raw numbers that Jokic has been putting up. Jokic is averaging 30.5 points / 13.4 rebounds / 10.1 assists on 54.6% FG / 47.0% 3PT% / 80.0% FT shooting splits *IN THE PLAYOFFS.* Unreal. 🤷🏻♂️
i'm glad Bill made that point at the end. yes, Murray's numbers are similar to Jimmy's but he's the 2nd guy. he's got Jokic getting him open shots and taking a lot of pressure off him. Jimmy has it all on his shoulders. i know this hasn't been his best series statistically but i imagine Jimmy is probably tired from leading this team to the Finals. he still played well yesterday.
But Jamal's numbers would be seriously inflated if he was the number one guy. But I agree, I think I see Jamal's potential at its absolute max trajectory -- if all goes well -- to be near Damian Lillard. And Lillard has never progressed beyond the conference finals.
Jamal has 10 assists per game in the finals in addition to his 24 points. Jokic setting screens for him is not getting him assists or helping him break down the defense. Butler is better taking his man into the post or finding his way past him to the rim, but Murray is a better scorer in every other way. And they don't make the finals on Butler's performance. He collapsed during the Celtics series and it was his supporting cast that carried them. I would laugh at the suggestion of Butler from Murray in a trade.
The Jokic thing works both ways, maybe his presence aids Murray's stats, but also Murray doesn't have to do as much. If he were the centerpiece his numbers might rise and his ability might be more apparent. Murray is really a Swiss army knife just like Jokic, but he's shorter and his mandate is primarily scoring.
Why does KD keeps coming up in conversations like this one ? 2 straight years of playoffs dissapointments, no show in the regular season, always injured. Is this because of his name ? Booker outplayed him all trough the season, like where does this come from
He hits nice looking jumpers, but really doesn't amplify his teammates or have a tight handle. Turnover prone and takes tough shots. Jokic sets up teammates for layups and takes incredibly high % looks. KD and Jokic are not close in 2023
@@poorchris I remember he missed every shot in that overtime and more people were talking about his foot being a size too big rather than The Bucks and Giannis winning. You also have no mention of him not looking good at all when his team got SWEPT, last year. A team he also ran away from. You can move that goal post if you want to, but KD being a top 3 player has been a fallacy since his Golden State days.
@@jdankerdake Giannis’s last four years in true shooting percentage: last year 60%, then 63,63,61 in the years before. Durant: 67% last year, 63,66,63. So you’re wrong about the efficiency and he’s only averaged 2 points less a game. He’s actually averaged more assists as well so you can go look that up too genius. So now that you know your own points are true about Durant can you admit you were wrong or do you just always talk out your ass and then refuse to acknowledge your wrong. And you act like shooting isn’t arguably the most important skill in the game today, and the difference is night and day Durant washes him. Giannis might be better at defense but the difference isn’t close to as wide as the shooting difference. Giannis can’t always get a bucket against elite defense Durant can, end of story.
Hahaha I think if you have 12 turnovers we shouldn’t count it as the fans. That’s fucking pathetic, almost as pathetic as people that actually think Giannis I haven’t made a jumper in 2 years Antetokoumpo is better than maybe the best offensive player of all time
There have been only 5 "30/20/10" games in the whole playoffs' history so far, and Jokic's got 3 of those. So, yeah, I'd add the "playoffs" qualifier to it, even more so after one of the biggest (and dumbest) narratives in the past couple of years was that Jokic was a playoff underperformer.
The entire NBA media ecosystem is hot takes about "this last game proves he is the best" until someone else has a great game, and then that proves that other guy is the best, and so on and so on. Just stop it.
@@jaceygaither2581Book DEFINITELY there. Hes probably the only guard, as a denver fan, I'd say would be better ON THE NUGGETS than Murray - for now and the future. In fact, if Book was on the Nugs itd be a guaranteed dynasty.
Bruce Lee said it very well when asked what his fighting " technique" is. Lee said, I am like water, I take whatever my opponent gives me and react to move or strike very quickly. So you think Jokic is slow, hell no, he reacts to a tiny slit in the defense or a cutting man in a millisecond, like a Cobra. His mind and reflexes make him easily the fastest man in the NBA.
Jokić plays defense so don’t talk about D. Miami missed 16 of 19 shots that Jokić contested . Bam missed 12 out of 14 when guarded by Jokić. Possibly his greatest all round game. Marc Spears
Yeah, people that think Giannis and Embiid close the gap because of defense are basically my litmus test for if you’re an idiot. Jokic is so much better than those guys it’s an absolute joke to disagree
Jokic 2023 Playoffs EASILY 1 of GOAT! #1 in ALL Playoffs in POINTS ASSISTS REBOUNDS (1st player EVER to have most POINTS ASSISTS REBOUNDS in single playoff! Wilt Russell Kareem Moses Bird Hakeem Shaq Duncan LeBron 5x the only others to lead in 2 of 3!) WIN SHARES PER BPM WS/48 Last 3 years in what easily could of been 3 straight MVPs he AVERAGED 26, 12, 9, 2stocks on insane 59/37/83, best analytics by far, best on/off by far! He’s undoubtedly Top5-25 somewhere in terms of what he’s done from 20-28 years old from an individual accomplishment stand point, statistically, playoff riser, analytically, all around game. It’s a TEAM game that’s why Jokic only had 1 WCF before 28 years old. He was still an awesome 26, 12, 6, 2stocks 52/40/82 in nearly 50 playoff games. Murray been hurt last 2 playoffs as was MPJ last year. They had no bench. Even this series they still could lose if KCP MPJ continue to shoot 20% from 3 instead of their normal 40% (they’re 5-26 so far from 3 or they’re up 3-0 if they are their normal 10-26 to 12-26 selfs!). MJ first 6 Playoffs was 24-29 in playoff games and never made a finals also. Was 0-5 vs Celtics Pistons even though he was mostly elite in playoffs. TEAMS win titles not individual players! If KCP MJP were their normal 10-26 to 12-26 from 3 selfs in Finals instead of horrid 5-26 Nuggets up 3-0 right now! Those 2 still need to step up bc if they keep shooting that bad they can def lose 2-3 more games unless Miami super cold also from 3 which you can’t count on. Giannis & Jokic have both had great arguments as best player in NBA the last 3-4 years, Jokic just finally has a healthy/good team now. Ppl still saying Durant still is hilarious as great as he still is he has never been the best player in the world. He’s been Top2-5 for a VERY long time which is all time stuff. Playoff Murray is a super star level but he has to do it in regular season too to be a super star. He is the largest playoff riser ever arguably especially when including insane efficiency!
Giannis is a great player that is headed to a lot of energies in his path. You can't keep running players over to score and think it's going to last a long time. Giannis had his time, now it's Jokic time.
Jamal "Blue Arrow" Murray IS probably a Superstar at this point. He was double teamed in game 4 and he still made the right passes with ZERO TURNOVERS and 12 assists. He is the most crucial 3 pointer of the game when it counted. He has had double digit assists every game of the finals. HE HAS TO BE CLOSE TO Superstar status if he isn't already there.
@@Makyura43 He did make a HUGE jump towards being a superstar in just one year considering his ACL had him down and out for 2 years. I thought he was done being a good player because of it.
KD was in the conversation in 2021 but after that he declined too much. Even Gianni’s said KD was the best in the world at the time, as KD almost single-handedly send bucks home that year. But for the past two playoffs he was so inefficient and washed. He’s still top 10 but definitely nowhere near Giannis now, amd Joker is even better.
Agreed. He just hasn't been the same since the Achilles injury. He pretty much only settles for mid range shots now since he can't blow by and finish at the rim like he used to. His regular season stats are still amazing but you can clearly see his limitations come playoff time.
Can we just give it a rest for a few days to see what happens! I love Jokic. Best passing big man I have seen in watching the NBA for 50 years . I wanted him to be the MVP . Only about 6 weeks ago most media members said the same thing about Giannis or Embid. Wait until the season ends
I don’t think you understand the current media structure regarding takes and opinions. The best player in any sport is day to day, week to week, and is extremely fluid in order to drive content, engagement, and views. If you don’t like it, go outside to a hike or play a video game. Otherwise, this will be a topic every week/month for the foreseeable future.
Jokic has above average IQ and I'm talking 130+ while also having spatial awareness. That's why he is so dominant, he is actively thinking about multiple possibilities/scenarios 99% of the gametime. No player in recent NBA history did that. He is already top 5 player of all time if you look at the stats, he is murdering Jordan & Lebron on efficiency.
@@dpistons149 yeah like lmao he’s all time great on offence but all it takes is watching the game to know he’s sub par defensively. Defensive win shares aren’t beating our eyes, especially those who’ve watched the game for years.
Jacoby "can't imagine a world in Giannis" gets a 30-20-10 game in the playoffs. In 2022 he had a game where he was 33-18-9, and another with 44-20-6. If you're fixating on the round numbers, you're a pretty casual fan. You can argue that Jokic is an amazing basketball player without pretending that a couple of assists or rebounds sets someone lightyears apart.
Jokic is easy to answer, with Jamal Murray being a superstar or the guy on his own team it's hard to say because he is always going to be the 2nd best player next to prime Jokic. I personally think the potential is there that even with the injuries, it doesn't seem like he missed a beat and the Nuggets are the Finals team they should have been in 21. I think he at least has Jaylen Brown's accolades if he was healthy the last two years.
at 4:17, Wildes said Jokic can becomes a better shooter? Seriously, compare his percentages from every spot on the floor vs Nowitzki. He's right there. The three pointers are clearly something he really didn't add to his game until later, didn't shoot much this year, and he's starting to shoot them as good as anyone ever has in the playoffs on a greater volume than he does in the regular season, 41.2% on 4.5 attempts per game. Jokic's numbers are up there with the greatest players of all time, center or not.
Nothing wrong with sharing a decade with another superstar. Not everyone can own a decade like Mike did in the 90's. 60's - Wilt/Russell 80's - Magic/Bird 00's - Kobe/Duncan 20's - Joker/Giannis A Bucks/Nuggets finals in 2025 would be great.
The only guy who can,and will stop the Joker is Nikola Jokić.I think that he won't play until most of people think.He won't be in a league for the next 7-8years.He'll probably go away and enjoy in life with his family and his horses... he's not your average superstar that sees everything through the game of basketball.He's a down to earth guy that understand life,and knows there's more to it than just basketball.That is one of the reasons why people love him.GO Denver!
To say Durant could be better than Jokic today is absolutely wild. Giannis and Embiid can be debated, Durant is the most overhyped player since T Mac. He's the most video-game style player, but in real life he's literally worse than jokic at rebounding, passing, in the paint, worse from 3, far worse intangibles, etc. Its mindblowing someone like Jokic can sustain around 45% from 3 and we still act like Durant is this prototype while shooting sub 40% from the entire field consistently in big games.
I don't think many people would argue Embiid because the thing they knocked Jokic for not winning in big spots Embiid can't even get to those spots. If the 76ers win the title next year then he'll get all the shine Jokic getting right now.
@@jasonlevesque6340 you a Simmons apologist? Maybe you’re Bill himself. The issue is the reasoning he voted for Embiid was because he thought Embiid deserved one based on the totality of several seasons, not on the merits of 2022-23. Simmons created a narrative which really doesn’t make sense for a single season mvp. And now he’s parading around, patting himself on the back saying that he and only a handful of people saw the greatness of Jokic.
@@TheKL04 Nope. Just someone with a little sense. I don't get what you're arguing. The MVP is a regular season award. Yes? Is your argument that Jokic should have won? There's merit to that. But I'm pretty sure Bill's vote isn't worth more than anyone else, so enough people voted for Embiid to win that he won. Makes sense to me. Saying Player A should have won, not player B is a child's statement. What did Jokic do that would have made him the CLEAR CUT MVP?
He is a top 3 player in the world on any given night but its always hard to quantify best because it's a team game. Jokic, Giannis, Tatum in that order. Jokic team ball is semi warriors/Princeton O. Everyone gets to touch the ball which keeps players engaged on both ends.
@@Sotanath86q Not a lot of tread left on those 35 year old tires. Tatum this playoffs went from Star to Superstar and I am a Jaylen Brown guy. Tatum gets the superstar whistle now.
Jokic has not peaked but he’s close. I don’t think Murray has peaked at all. If anything, he still has the occasional hesitation facing danger that comes naturally to anyone who’s been seriously injured. Give that a couple of years to fade and he’ll really hit his stride. If they actually get better, who has a real chance against them in 7 games?
To me, if Kyrie is considered a superstar, so should be Murray, as the former has never been the absolute number one in a successful playoff run, and the latter has easily had at least as much impact on winning in his team's best runs.
@@poorchris jamal also had many individual performances where he was objectively the carry, especially during their double 3-1 comebacks during a single playoff run, so what's your point?
The comparison to Bird's breakdown isn't even fair, either, because the game today is so much less rough. There's nobody remotely on the same level of toughness as the mid 80s Lakers or the Bad Boy Pistons. Bird today would play into his late 30s, easily.
True. Bird played so hard and took so much punishment that he often was coming into the playoffs as damaged goods and running on fumes. He's definitely an all time great that would've been even better in today's game!
@@JIT-sz4tf In Bill's book, he openly asked if Bird was just the right place, right time, asking if he would have been Danny Ferry 2.0. I don't think he would have been that. It's the character that's timeless, not the skillset. Would Bird have won three rings? Maybe not. Would he have won at least one? Absolutely. The toughness and the mind are good for one modern ring, at least.
The Bucks and 76ers would each trade Giannis and Embiid for Jokic if offered (And both teams would immediately be better) and the Nuggets wouldn't trade him for anything. /discussion
As great as any player is - you must have the right teammates around him. Gordon, Brown, KCP has complemented Murray and Jokic. That's what makes Denver go........I think the 2019-20 Lakers.....would match up well with this team ....of course KCP was on both teams [LOL].........Point is: You have to right pieces around the stars.....and of course, health
Jacoby is crazy for thinking that KD is still in the “Best Player in the World” conversation. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ No way. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ He doesn’t come close to putting up the total raw numbers that Jokic has been putting up. Jokic is averaging 30.5 points / 13.4 rebounds / 10.1 assists on 54.6% FG / 47.0% 3PT% / 80.0% FT shooting splits *IN THE PLAYOFFS.* Unreal. 🤷🏻♂️
To me, tho it’s obviously incredibly difficult to accomplish, I think it’s pretty simple to define a superstar. If you are not an unquestioned #1 on a championship WINNING team, you shouldn’t or shouldn’t YET be considered a “superstar”. Only Giannis, Steph, LeBron (Who is not currently at that level but has proven it with his 4 titles/FMVP’s) KD (I guess), Kawai (Though I can’t stand or defend his physical unreliability) and with 1 more victory, Joker. Everyone else are either potential superstars or just stars at best.
A sharp shooting big with eyes in the back of his head, can't jump over or out sprint a snail, yet still gets his shot off against anybody? I've seen that before. This time around just a little bigger, even slower and unfortunately not in green.
Ok, so for the record, I think Jokic is the best right now (and foreseeable future)… and while I’ve disqualified this guy until further notice.. Embiid had a 59/11/8/7(blk) game this season.. and rivals Jokic in shooting ability.. BUT what he lacks is consistency (rebounding and low post work), intensity and the ability to stay healthy.. but even over Giannis, I think he’s the only one with even the *capability* of matching Jokic.. I’ll say though, even with his injury (and maybe even because of his inability to stay healthy), this postseason, Embiid effectively took himself out of the running.. sadly
Has nothing to do with big guys and everything to do with media. Jokic has already been the best player for 3 straight years now (2 MVPs + This year) and will likely have minimum 3 more years. The real reason it feels like big guys fallout so fast is because the media forces Jordan, Kobe, or Lebron to be the face of the league. If Tim Duncan got half the hype, it'd feel like he dominated forever. If the media was honest about lebron, he'd have been the best player for maybe 4-6 years in total.
@@DrWNoLs The media has nothing to do with it, their decline was statistical. Duncan wasn’t putting up LeBron numbers at his current age, Kawhi carried Tim and won Finals MVP.
And Jokic does that thing we are BEGGING the best players to do: take mismatches to the block and destroy them. He has the midrange, the three, the passing AND if they put a small guy on him, he goes to the basket and either backs them down or goes over them.
And as a defender is perfectly mid
@@joeynickles7962 And? What’s your point?
@@joeynickles7962 drop the point dude 😅
He backs down even big guys, like NOBODY can guard him 1 on 1...the best 1 on 1 post scorer since Shaq, midrange, 3 ball, passing, floters etc...the most dominant offensive force since Lebron 2017...
………and can’t defend.
jokic’s ironman streak of not having major injury/excuses puts him over the top
Not only that. Jokic-Murray is pretty clearly the best duo in the NBA
@@xavierb9061 so the nuggets dedicated 4 defenders to cover two leaving 2 Suns wide open? Interesting. I must have been watching a different series than you bc I didn’t see that type of defense at all.
@@xavierb9061 you can't double either of them because the other is also on the court
This was a section on Bill's podcast where they try to guess some of the talking head storylines after game 3. "Jokic/Murray best duo?" came up too.
@@xavierb9061 Booker/Durant is a close #2 for me but projecting forward I don't see them wrestling away the top spot from Jokic/Murray especially when you factor in the fact that Murray is 8 years younger than Durant.
As a SUNS FAN I AGREE WITH THIS THEY DEFINITELY ARE (IN MY OPINION)....
However MURRAY gets GROSSLY DISRESPECTED AND DONT GET ENOUGH CREDIT. Everybody and their mama on Joker jocks even though I have him the best player in the league it's SOO CLEAR when Murray is playing like ass THEY ARE DEFINITELY BEATABLE he definitely starts the engine and take it some miles before joker take it home. .
Did the dude really say “did ja make it thru the metal detector!” 😂😂😂😂😂
kevin durant best player arguments in 2023😂😂 do better jacoby
Durant wasn't even the best player on his team
I’ll take 26 years old mikal bridges over a 34 years old Durant straight up. No need to attach any draft picks
He don’t know what he’s talking about, Giannis could definitely get 30/20/10 that’s not unfathomable
We literally just watched him get outplayed by Jokic two weeks ago, come on Jacoby
2023 Kevin Durant isn’t even sniffing Jokic or Giannis
Giannis isnt there, its steph or jokic
That Durant ship definitely sailed. He's great, and was arguably the best in the game for a time, which not many can say. But at this point KD isn't gonna bring it like several other younger guys.
it's great seeing the international players shining in the NBA. 5 of the last MVPs.
It really is amazing
and...all BIGS. PF/C x2 and then Centers x3
the small ball, death lineup by GSW, worked b/c they had an elite shooter who moved off ball on an super elite level -- in Curry. Outside of Curry, size matters.
Why is that amazing?
@@chazzmantis2279 nba wasn’t an international league for most of its history, Americans have normally dominated the sport
@@chazzmantis2279 it means the sports growing
This was hilarious Wildes can produce a morning sports arguing show in his sleep
🤣
Why is Kevin Durant still in this conversation? We need to stop it lool. Devin Booker was better than KD in the playoffs
why u hatin? kd was getting doubled mid half court while book scored of closeouts
I cannot believe that Jacoby brought up KD. What is this reverence for KD? What do people see in him? :D
@@zalemdreams durant played with westbrook, won chips with golden state or had two starters out when he was eliminated. Thats his career
@@zalemdreamsso one of the greatest players of all time.
@@zalemdreams no of them went to the finals with two other top 75 players that at least one of them is at his prime.😂
KD groupies please stop...
Curry groupies consistently underrate him though.
KD was in the best in the world conversation until Booker and Jokic were better than him in the playoffs.
Update: 2:22 Bill riding Curry that hard after he was clearly outplayed by AD and was worse than a 38 y/o LeBron on a broken foot in that 2nd round series is so much more intolerable than Jacoby still being a KD guy.
Jokic and Giannis are the best right now easily
@@ckq to not even name Giannis there is hilarious. The last 3 years best player in the world was between Giannis/Jokic the end! Availability matters! Now had Durant been healthier and played more I could hear you as his efficiency has been God tier and better passing/defense compared to OKC or even Warriors days, but Giannis & Jokic last 1 years just do more overall to impact the game. That said if healthier KD would have at least an argument though I’d still place him 3rd. LeBron was actually elite still in 2020-21 before Solomon Hill dove into his ankle with lakers 28-14 and number 1 defense in NBA (AD out previous month before injured and LeBron was MVP favorite in Vegas and top5 in DPOY odds too), but since then not as consistent and more injury prone.
kd washed up. What could of been if he stayed in golden state
Doesn't help that 90 percent of the 4s that have been drafted in the last 10 years have been taken in the mold of matching up with a guy like him
Jokic is so good that KD now looks obsolete 😂😂😂
Jacoby is crazy for thinking that KD is still in the “Best Player in the World” conversation. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ No way. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ He doesn’t come close to putting up the total raw numbers that Jokic has been putting up. Jokic is averaging 30.5 points / 13.4 rebounds / 10.1 assists on 54.6% FG / 47.0% 3PT% / 80.0% FT shooting splits *IN THE PLAYOFFS.* Unreal. 🤷🏻♂️
i'm glad Bill made that point at the end. yes, Murray's numbers are similar to Jimmy's but he's the 2nd guy. he's got Jokic getting him open shots and taking a lot of pressure off him. Jimmy has it all on his shoulders. i know this hasn't been his best series statistically but i imagine Jimmy is probably tired from leading this team to the Finals. he still played well yesterday.
But Jamal's numbers would be seriously inflated if he was the number one guy. But I agree, I think I see Jamal's potential at its absolute max trajectory -- if all goes well -- to be near Damian Lillard. And Lillard has never progressed beyond the conference finals.
Jamal has 10 assists per game in the finals in addition to his 24 points. Jokic setting screens for him is not getting him assists or helping him break down the defense. Butler is better taking his man into the post or finding his way past him to the rim, but Murray is a better scorer in every other way.
And they don't make the finals on Butler's performance. He collapsed during the Celtics series and it was his supporting cast that carried them. I would laugh at the suggestion of Butler from Murray in a trade.
The Jokic thing works both ways, maybe his presence aids Murray's stats, but also Murray doesn't have to do as much. If he were the centerpiece his numbers might rise and his ability might be more apparent. Murray is really a Swiss army knife just like Jokic, but he's shorter and his mandate is primarily scoring.
im a huge Curry fan but i agree its Jokic right now..
Definitely feels like it's either him or Giannis to me.
Giannis’ performance in the last game literally running away from the ball has to have a huge impact on the conversation.
This year, right now, jimmy better than Giannis. No holes in Jimmy's game. Even Giannis said whoever makes it the farthest is the best at that moment
@@Henry-kv7zl LMAOOOO
Giannis feels too hackable to me.
@@samantharay6098except when the suns tried that and Giannis still won. It seems like people already forgetting Giannis’ finals run.
Murray is a gamer. He punches above his weight class in BIG games more than anyone and he has since he was a kid.
Why does KD keeps coming up in conversations like this one ? 2 straight years of playoffs dissapointments, no show in the regular season, always injured. Is this because of his name ? Booker outplayed him all trough the season, like where does this come from
Bc they know the truth ☺️ I just wish Kd wasnt paying the price for doing the super team shit
He hits nice looking jumpers, but really doesn't amplify his teammates or have a tight handle. Turnover prone and takes tough shots. Jokic sets up teammates for layups and takes incredibly high % looks. KD and Jokic are not close in 2023
Bird's body broke down due to injuries...not playing. Bird could've kept going because of his sharp skillset but injuries caught up to him.
All because of a driveway.
He told Bill Simmons that he would have retired in 1988 if Len Bias hadn’t passed away. 🤷🏻♂️
@@poorchris - Magic never had AIDS. He was diagnosed as HIV positive. 🤷🏻♂️
@@poorchris - And Isiah has said publicly that it was a wrist injury that impacted his career the most *NOT* his Achilles tear. 🤷🏻♂️
@@poorchris Jokic is not at Bird's level, only MJ can be discussed as someone at that level
There is no debate. I agree with the panel push all my chips to the center on The Joker. He is the best hands down.
What has KD shown in six years to suggest he’s in this conversation.
@@poorchris I remember he missed every shot in that overtime and more people were talking about his foot being a size too big rather than The Bucks and Giannis winning. You also have no mention of him not looking good at all when his team got SWEPT, last year. A team he also ran away from.
You can move that goal post if you want to, but KD being a top 3 player has been a fallacy since his Golden State days.
@@poorchris he’s so much better than Giannis it’s a fucking joke
@@sitonmuhdeckasshole better at what? Losing? The guy can't win a chip on his own, wasn't the best player on his team this year.
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p have you actually accomplished anything in your life though? Is that why you hate KD so much? Just curious
@@jdankerdake Giannis’s last four years in true shooting percentage: last year 60%, then 63,63,61 in the years before. Durant: 67% last year, 63,66,63. So you’re wrong about the efficiency and he’s only averaged 2 points less a game. He’s actually averaged more assists as well so you can go look that up too genius. So now that you know your own points are true about Durant can you admit you were wrong or do you just always talk out your ass and then refuse to acknowledge your wrong. And you act like shooting isn’t arguably the most important skill in the game today, and the difference is night and day Durant washes him. Giannis might be better at defense but the difference isn’t close to as wide as the shooting difference. Giannis can’t always get a bucket against elite defense Durant can, end of story.
He said he can’t imagine Giannis having a 30/20/10 game, but Giannis had one in the regular season. 12 turnovers too 😬.
probably meant in the playoffs.
Hahaha I think if you have 12 turnovers we shouldn’t count it as the fans. That’s fucking pathetic, almost as pathetic as people that actually think Giannis I haven’t made a jumper in 2 years Antetokoumpo is better than maybe the best offensive player of all time
Jokic has "them" on a high right now. Just lies to push Jokic's mythology now.
He prolly meant in the play offs
There have been only 5 "30/20/10" games in the whole playoffs' history so far, and Jokic's got 3 of those. So, yeah, I'd add the "playoffs" qualifier to it, even more so after one of the biggest (and dumbest) narratives in the past couple of years was that Jokic was a playoff underperformer.
JACOBY YOU ARE OUTSIDE YOUR DAMN MIND ADDING KD TO THIS 😵💫
The entire NBA media ecosystem is hot takes about "this last game proves he is the best" until someone else has a great game, and then that proves that other guy is the best, and so on and so on. Just stop it.
It is a title belt, if you aren't defending it, then you aren't it.
KD wasn't even better than Devin Booker in the playoffs lol he took a step back for sure. He's probably fringe top 10 player right now
Yeah, after this playoff run KD shouldn't be ahead of Booker. To me they're both somewhere around 10-15.
@@jaceygaither2581 book is definitely top 10
@@jaceygaither2581Book DEFINITELY there. Hes probably the only guard, as a denver fan, I'd say would be better ON THE NUGGETS than Murray - for now and the future. In fact, if Book was on the Nugs itd be a guaranteed dynasty.
Bruce Lee said it very well when asked what his fighting " technique" is. Lee said, I am like water, I take whatever my opponent gives me and react to move or strike very quickly. So you think Jokic is slow, hell no, he reacts to a tiny slit in the defense or a cutting man in a millisecond, like a Cobra. His mind and reflexes make him easily the fastest man in the NBA.
You can't stop him, he's gonna do what he's gonna do and nobody in the world is gonna do anything about it.
Jokić plays defense so don’t talk about D. Miami missed 16 of 19 shots that Jokić contested . Bam missed 12 out of 14 when guarded by Jokić. Possibly his greatest all round game.
Marc Spears
Exactly, it's a narrative created for Embiid MVP argument (that Jokic doesn't play defense).
Yeah, people that think Giannis and Embiid close the gap because of defense are basically my litmus test for if you’re an idiot. Jokic is so much better than those guys it’s an absolute joke to disagree
@@Magihyun No, it's an older observation than that. But one that Jokic has mostly dispelled by now.
The idiot test lmao …who’s the best player
Jokic 2023 Playoffs EASILY 1 of GOAT!
#1 in ALL Playoffs in
POINTS
ASSISTS
REBOUNDS
(1st player EVER to have most POINTS ASSISTS REBOUNDS in single playoff! Wilt Russell Kareem Moses Bird Hakeem Shaq Duncan LeBron 5x the only others to lead in 2 of 3!)
WIN SHARES
PER
BPM
WS/48
Last 3 years in what easily could of been 3 straight MVPs he AVERAGED
26, 12, 9, 2stocks on insane 59/37/83, best analytics by far, best on/off by far!
He’s undoubtedly Top5-25 somewhere in terms of what he’s done from 20-28 years old from an individual accomplishment stand point, statistically, playoff riser, analytically, all around game.
It’s a TEAM game that’s why Jokic only had 1 WCF before 28 years old. He was still an awesome 26, 12, 6, 2stocks 52/40/82 in nearly 50 playoff games. Murray been hurt last 2 playoffs as was MPJ last year. They had no bench. Even this series they still could lose if KCP MPJ continue to shoot 20% from 3 instead of their normal 40% (they’re 5-26 so far from 3 or they’re up 3-0 if they are their normal 10-26 to 12-26 selfs!). MJ first 6 Playoffs was 24-29 in playoff games and never made a finals also. Was 0-5 vs Celtics Pistons even though he was mostly elite in playoffs. TEAMS win titles not individual players!
If KCP MJP were their normal 10-26 to 12-26 from 3 selfs in Finals instead of horrid 5-26 Nuggets up 3-0 right now! Those 2 still need to step up bc if they keep shooting that bad they can def lose 2-3 more games unless Miami super cold also from 3 which you can’t count on.
Giannis & Jokic have both had great arguments as best player in NBA the last 3-4 years, Jokic just finally has a healthy/good team now.
Ppl still saying Durant still is hilarious as great as he still is he has never been the best player in the world. He’s been Top2-5 for a VERY long time which is all time stuff.
Playoff Murray is a super star level but he has to do it in regular season too to be a super star. He is the largest playoff riser ever arguably especially when including insane efficiency!
Three of the best guys to do it
Wildes is the man
I love Wildes on FTF, but I want more of this version too
First Time if seen Kevin Wildes on Bill Simmons TH-cam
Giannis is a great player that is headed to a lot of energies in his path. You can't keep running players over to score and think it's going to last a long time. Giannis had his time, now it's Jokic time.
It's been Jokic's time as long as it's been Giannis' time.
Wildes is a gem
Jamal "Blue Arrow" Murray IS probably a Superstar at this point. He was double teamed in game 4 and he still made the right passes with ZERO TURNOVERS and 12 assists. He is the most crucial 3 pointer of the game when it counted. He has had double digit assists every game of the finals. HE HAS TO BE CLOSE TO Superstar status if he isn't already there.
He is close. Considering how much he improved in a single season after such an injury I think it's only matter of time. Season or two.
@@Makyura43 He did make a HUGE jump towards being a superstar in just one year considering his ACL had him down and out for 2 years. I thought he was done being a good player because of it.
he is. he has no flaws to his game. hes a decent defender now and he has a perfect bag.
The Blue Arrow is a pretty good nickname
The man in the middle is totally right. Spot on.
Best player I have seen since prime Dirk.
Wildes carries his show on FS1 he's become a legend
Considering that everyone else in the running just got embarrassed in the playoffs, while Jokic mollywopped his way to a title, yeah he’s the best.
Durant being in the convo is laughable when he isn't even the primary option of the team.
Jacoby! Where's he been lately? Haven't seem him in ages. Jalen & Jacoby was a fun show...
KD was in the conversation in 2021 but after that he declined too much. Even Gianni’s said KD was the best in the world at the time, as KD almost single-handedly send bucks home that year. But for the past two playoffs he was so inefficient and washed. He’s still top 10 but definitely nowhere near Giannis now, amd Joker is even better.
Agreed. He just hasn't been the same since the Achilles injury. He pretty much only settles for mid range shots now since he can't blow by and finish at the rim like he used to. His regular season stats are still amazing but you can clearly see his limitations come playoff time.
Can we just give it a rest for a few days to see what happens! I love Jokic. Best passing big man I have seen in watching the NBA for 50 years . I wanted him to be the MVP . Only about 6 weeks ago most media members said the same thing about Giannis or Embid. Wait until the season ends
I don’t think you understand the current media structure regarding takes and opinions. The best player in any sport is day to day, week to week, and is extremely fluid in order to drive content, engagement, and views. If you don’t like it, go outside to a hike or play a video game. Otherwise, this will be a topic every week/month for the foreseeable future.
When the season ends, no one will talk about Joker. So you have to talk about it now.
@@kneecage3236when he lifts the championship trophy there won't be anyone else to talk about.
@Joe Shmoe thats why Russilo used to mock them and have a "GOAT of the week" segment.
8:30 first take topic is hilarious
Jacoby!!! I haven't seen him since Jalen and Jacoby got cancelled and I've missed him and that awesome show. Shout out to Jacoby
Oh shoot the trio i didn’t know i really wanted to see… wildes, jacoby & podfather
Recency bias? Absolutely! This is part of the darkness in the glass we see through. Yet Joker is really fking special!
Jokic has above average IQ and I'm talking 130+ while also having spatial awareness. That's why he is so dominant, he is actively thinking about multiple possibilities/scenarios 99% of the gametime. No player in recent NBA history did that. He is already top 5 player of all time if you look at the stats, he is murdering Jordan & Lebron on efficiency.
Lebron and Jordan are killing Jokic on defense and he’s a big man. Jokic beating lebron and Jordan in efficiency isn’t a big deal.
@@dpistons149 Check defensive winshares on basketball reference. Jokic is one of the best defenders in the NBA.
@@Magihyun I watch the games I know that isn’t true lol but he’s still elite.
@@dpistons149 yeah like lmao he’s all time great on offence but all it takes is watching the game to know he’s sub par defensively. Defensive win shares aren’t beating our eyes, especially those who’ve watched the game for years.
Championships matter. He will never sniff top 10
Jacoby "can't imagine a world in Giannis" gets a 30-20-10 game in the playoffs. In 2022 he had a game where he was 33-18-9, and another with 44-20-6. If you're fixating on the round numbers, you're a pretty casual fan. You can argue that Jokic is an amazing basketball player without pretending that a couple of assists or rebounds sets someone lightyears apart.
Of course, he also argued that Kevin Durant was arguably the best player in the world so perhaps this is just a person who doesn't know things.
Stop drinking Pepsi and you can be the next Jokic too😂.
I like Kevin Wildes.
Jokic is easy to answer, with Jamal Murray being a superstar or the guy on his own team it's hard to say because he is always going to be the 2nd best player next to prime Jokic.
I personally think the potential is there that even with the injuries, it doesn't seem like he missed a beat and the Nuggets are the Finals team they should have been in 21. I think he at least has Jaylen Brown's accolades if he was healthy the last two years.
The durant ship definitely sailed. He can't get to the rim nearly as well as he used to
at 4:17, Wildes said Jokic can becomes a better shooter? Seriously, compare his percentages from every spot on the floor vs Nowitzki. He's right there. The three pointers are clearly something he really didn't add to his game until later, didn't shoot much this year, and he's starting to shoot them as good as anyone ever has in the playoffs on a greater volume than he does in the regular season, 41.2% on 4.5 attempts per game.
Jokic's numbers are up there with the greatest players of all time, center or not.
Playoffs is a half court game and Jokić is the best half court player.
Jacoby 🤯🤯
This the first time in a while I’ve seen Jacoby I wondered what happened to espn
Nothing wrong with sharing a decade with another superstar. Not everyone can own a decade like Mike did in the 90's.
60's - Wilt/Russell
80's - Magic/Bird
00's - Kobe/Duncan
20's - Joker/Giannis
A Bucks/Nuggets finals in 2025 would be great.
Wilt's 1 chip to Russell's 9 isn't really sharing the decade. But the 67' was special.
Agreed a Bucks/Nuggets Finals would be epic
@@apostolostvable it was supposed to happen this season but jimmy jordan had other plans
Undeniably
Thought Jacoby was on duty for a half second.
The only guy who can,and will stop the Joker is Nikola Jokić.I think that he won't play until most of people think.He won't be in a league for the next 7-8years.He'll probably go away and enjoy in life with his family and his horses... he's not your average superstar that sees everything through the game of basketball.He's a down to earth guy that understand life,and knows there's more to it than just basketball.That is one of the reasons why people love him.GO Denver!
To say Durant could be better than Jokic today is absolutely wild. Giannis and Embiid can be debated, Durant is the most overhyped player since T Mac. He's the most video-game style player, but in real life he's literally worse than jokic at rebounding, passing, in the paint, worse from 3, far worse intangibles, etc. Its mindblowing someone like Jokic can sustain around 45% from 3 and we still act like Durant is this prototype while shooting sub 40% from the entire field consistently in big games.
I don't think many people would argue Embiid because the thing they knocked Jokic for not winning in big spots Embiid can't even get to those spots. If the 76ers win the title next year then he'll get all the shine Jokic getting right now.
Simmons voted Embiid for MVP like a mark
LAST player picked in an ALL-STAR game,what an INSULT by ones peers.I loved that the " LA- KING" got swept by the " CZAR".
Let’s not forget, Bill Simmons voted Embiid for mvp because he felt Embiid deserved at least 1 mvp in the past 3 years.
And?
Bill wasn't trying to be called a racist. I'm just glad that Embiid's MVP is choking him now. :D
Damn Bill Simmons. Always handing out the MVP before the NBA playoffs.
@@jasonlevesque6340 you a Simmons apologist? Maybe you’re Bill himself. The issue is the reasoning he voted for Embiid was because he thought Embiid deserved one based on the totality of several seasons, not on the merits of 2022-23. Simmons created a narrative which really doesn’t make sense for a single season mvp. And now he’s parading around, patting himself on the back saying that he and only a handful of people saw the greatness of Jokic.
@@TheKL04 Nope. Just someone with a little sense. I don't get what you're arguing. The MVP is a regular season award. Yes?
Is your argument that Jokic should have won? There's merit to that. But I'm pretty sure Bill's vote isn't worth more than anyone else, so enough people voted for Embiid to win that he won. Makes sense to me.
Saying Player A should have won, not player B is a child's statement. What did Jokic do that would have made him the CLEAR CUT MVP?
The disrespect that KD is being mentioned and Giannis is being insulted is hilarious
Wildes is a genius
He is a top 3 player in the world on any given night but its always hard to quantify best because it's a team game. Jokic, Giannis, Tatum in that order. Jokic team ball is semi warriors/Princeton O. Everyone gets to touch the ball which keeps players engaged on both ends.
Tatum over Curry is an insane take
@@Sotanath86q Not a lot of tread left on those 35 year old tires. Tatum this playoffs went from Star to Superstar and I am a Jaylen Brown guy. Tatum gets the superstar whistle now.
Wildes makes any show he’s on
Jokic has not peaked but he’s close. I don’t think Murray has peaked at all. If anything, he still has the occasional hesitation facing danger that comes naturally to anyone who’s been seriously injured. Give that a couple of years to fade and he’ll really hit his stride. If they actually get better, who has a real chance against them in 7 games?
To me, if Kyrie is considered a superstar, so should be Murray, as the former has never been the absolute number one in a successful playoff run, and the latter has easily had at least as much impact on winning in his team's best runs.
@@poorchris jamal also had many individual performances where he was objectively the carry, especially during their double 3-1 comebacks during a single playoff run, so what's your point?
Jacoby saying KD is nuts
This isn’t even close to being debatable. Jokic is BY FAR the best player. It’s not even close.
The comparison to Bird's breakdown isn't even fair, either, because the game today is so much less rough. There's nobody remotely on the same level of toughness as the mid 80s Lakers or the Bad Boy Pistons. Bird today would play into his late 30s, easily.
True. Bird played so hard and took so much punishment that he often was coming into the playoffs as damaged goods and running on fumes. He's definitely an all time great that would've been even better in today's game!
@@JIT-sz4tf In Bill's book, he openly asked if Bird was just the right place, right time, asking if he would have been Danny Ferry 2.0. I don't think he would have been that. It's the character that's timeless, not the skillset. Would Bird have won three rings? Maybe not. Would he have won at least one? Absolutely. The toughness and the mind are good for one modern ring, at least.
Giannis is behind in the "greatest player in the world" debate today, but he's got 30% of the vote to Jokic's 70% imo
I have only been an nba fan for 5 years, the KD worship from the media has never been real to me
Dude the BEST Player in the world is the best player who won the chip. And that’s Joker. He’s the best player in the world right now.
The Bucks and 76ers would each trade Giannis and Embiid for Jokic if offered (And both teams would immediately be better) and the Nuggets wouldn't trade him for anything. /discussion
As great as any player is - you must have the right teammates around him. Gordon, Brown, KCP has complemented Murray and Jokic. That's what makes Denver go........I think the 2019-20 Lakers.....would match up well with this team ....of course KCP was on both teams [LOL].........Point is: You have to right pieces around the stars.....and of course, health
KEVIN DURENT?!?!?!?! Did this guy watch the playoffs?
Jacoby is crazy for thinking that KD is still in the “Best Player in the World” conversation. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ No way. 🤷🏻♂️🙄🤦🏻♂️ He doesn’t come close to putting up the total raw numbers that Jokic has been putting up. Jokic is averaging 30.5 points / 13.4 rebounds / 10.1 assists on 54.6% FG / 47.0% 3PT% / 80.0% FT shooting splits *IN THE PLAYOFFS.* Unreal. 🤷🏻♂️
what is he gonna loose speed?? 😂😂☠️
I love Joker love him can’t be the best when the D is lacking!! I’ll say 1A with the Greek Freak !!
The D is NOT lacking, though. You just don't watch him enough.
Jamal "Blue Arrow" Murray doesn't have a nickname?
To me, tho it’s obviously incredibly difficult to accomplish, I think it’s pretty simple to define a superstar. If you are not an unquestioned #1 on a championship WINNING team, you shouldn’t or shouldn’t YET be considered a “superstar”. Only Giannis, Steph, LeBron (Who is not currently at that level but has proven it with his 4 titles/FMVP’s) KD (I guess), Kawai (Though I can’t stand or defend his physical unreliability) and with 1 more victory, Joker.
Everyone else are either potential superstars or just stars at best.
Just as a side note... Jimmy is not a super star, just a star
Jacoby is the last man on your boat if you are an ageing star. "i still think he has this!"
Jacoby!! Doesn’t get enough air time IMHO.
Bill voting for Embid over Jokic for MvP is an even bigger travesty than him choosing Shawn Marion over Manu in his 1999 Redraft.
Jamal muarry is def a top 10-15 player
I would like to see him finish the drill and win the championship before I say he is undeniably better than Giannis.
At the moment**
Jimmy has been the #1 option on a finals team twice. I don’t care if Murray’s numbers are close.
A sharp shooting big with eyes in the back of his head, can't jump over or out sprint a snail, yet still gets his shot off against anybody? I've seen that before. This time around just a little bigger, even slower and unfortunately not in green.
Ok, so for the record, I think Jokic is the best right now (and foreseeable future)… and while I’ve disqualified this guy until further notice.. Embiid had a 59/11/8/7(blk) game this season.. and rivals Jokic in shooting ability.. BUT what he lacks is consistency (rebounding and low post work), intensity and the ability to stay healthy.. but even over Giannis, I think he’s the only one with even the *capability* of matching Jokic..
I’ll say though, even with his injury (and maybe even because of his inability to stay healthy), this postseason, Embiid effectively took himself out of the running.. sadly
he is the best now. But it’s always a short reign, make it happen now with a ring. Big guys are like Fiats
Excellent comment. They were saying the same about Giannis 3 years ago
Laughs in KAJ and Tim Duncan.
Has nothing to do with big guys and everything to do with media. Jokic has already been the best player for 3 straight years now (2 MVPs + This year) and will likely have minimum 3 more years. The real reason it feels like big guys fallout so fast is because the media forces Jordan, Kobe, or Lebron to be the face of the league. If Tim Duncan got half the hype, it'd feel like he dominated forever. If the media was honest about lebron, he'd have been the best player for maybe 4-6 years in total.
@@aidanklobuchar1798 exception ≠ rule. For every Duncan, there’s 20 Benetts. Look at any draft.
@@DrWNoLs The media has nothing to do with it, their decline was statistical. Duncan wasn’t putting up LeBron numbers at his current age, Kawhi carried Tim and won Finals MVP.
Stretch mark 5 guy is here
Shoutout Jalen and Jacoby
Jacoby!