THE REVERSE DIET DEBATE: Eric Helms + Menno Henselmans vs. Layne Norton + Peter Fitschen
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Debate Time Stamps:
1. Introductions 0:34
2. Eric Helms' Opening Statement 5:40
3. Layne Norton's Opening Statement 14:41
4. Menno Henselman's Opening Statement 25:00
5. Peter Fitschen's Opening Statement 37:03
6. Clarifying "maintenance calories" 42:49
7. How long to reverse diet? 45:02
8. How does reverse dieting work in the absence of changes in body composition? 50:24
9. "Adaptive metabolisms" discussion 51:58
10. What is a low-end settling point? 55:02
11. Ad libitum and intuitive eating approaches post-contest 57:46
12. Can you diet on higher calories in prep after a successful reverse? Does it "carry over"? 1:16:55
13. NEAT Discussion 1:21:24
14. Is there value in increasing calories in the off-season (not post show)? 1:25:25
15. Are refeeds effective at upregulating NEAT? 1:27:52
16. Conclusions 1:29:49
All annotations to the debate:
Episode 18 - Bro Splits, Training Frequency & the Anabolic Window feat. Menno Henselmans feat. Menno Henselmans:
www.youtube.co....
Episode 12 - Changes in Hormones with Natural Bodybuilding Contest Prep feat. Peter Fitschen
itunes.apple.c....
Physique Science Radio Episode 8 - Eating Disorders
www.biolayne.c....
The 3DMJ Recovery Diet Video
www.youtube.co....
You can find more from the debaters here:
ERIC HELMS
www.muscleandstrengthpyramids.com
www.3dmusclejourney.com
Facebook: / ericrhelms
LAYNE NORTON
www.biolayne.com
IG: @biolayne
Facebook: / laynenorton
MENNO HENSELMANS
www.bayesianbodybuilding.com
Facebook: / bayesianbody. .
PETER FITSCHEN
www.fitbodyphysique.com
IG: @fitbodyphysique
Facebook: / naturalprobo. .
CONTEST PREP/ COACHING from Jeff
jeff@strcng.com
FOR CONTEST PREP/ COACHING from Robin
robin@strcng.com
BLOG
www.strcng.com/blog
ROBIN'S CHANNEL:
/ robingallant
FACEBOOK
/ jeffnippard
TWITTER
/ jeffnippard
INSTAGRAM
@jeffnippard
This is free... holy shit, what a time to be alive
My thoughts exactly... Most people don't give a shit tho.
sadly true
I just burnt my sweet potatoes, whilst watching this, this morning... My macros are now fucked. Thanks a lot.
+ironcurtis damn, you missed on all those sweet potatoes gainzzzzzzzzz, all kindzzzzzzzzz...
This is incredible. Thank you for doing this Jeff!!
My pleasure! Appreciate the support as always 👍🏼
"In 2007, my reversed diet plan, was a list of restaurants"
OMG I NEVER KNEW ERIC WENT THROUGH THIS 50 lb GAIN! Same exact thing happened to me last year and I still struggle with binging today. How did you address this and get better psychologically?! I've been really considering a psychiatrist. Wow. Mind blown.
it was so difficult to keep up with Layne as opposed to Menno who directly stated his argument followed by evidence, i feel like Layne didn't have a clear idea of how he was approaching certain topics of the debate and was beating around the bush quite a bit :/
Really amazing debate/podcast, Jeff. this will benefit so many people and allow them to see the scientific approaches of both sides. Thanks so much for putting this together 🙌🏼
Thanks Brittany! Happy to hear it 😊
Layne will add 1 grain of rice per week! Will save it for cardio.
This was fantastic. Thanks for hosting such a compelling conversation Jeff!
I think it comes down to how lean you're cutting to.. If you only cutting to 10-12% bodyfat, there would be no point in gaining 5-10lbs of fat right away. You're better off increasing calories until you're in your desired small surplus for a lean bulk.
this is not about cutting to 10 procent bodyfat; but dieting after your contest.. ( which means diced glutes and a fucked up hormonal balance)
amen...last diet i got down to 10 pct and then started eating at surplus and blew tf up. never again
Joost Van Hollebeke Not quite, they are debating about reverse diet in general! They are just using examples of bodybuilders who need to prepare for a contest but it applies to anyone who is wanting to lose weight.
This was great! Just imagine how epic it would've been when Lyle was in the discussion..
lyle is a fucking moron with zero applicable experience
I'm interested to hear their opinion on how they handle a client that is, say 300+lbs, very high body fat, eating 1000-2000 calories a day with respect to the reverse diet idea
I imagine a serious weight training program would be involved.
Great debate. Jeff I really like your videos. You are very good at recapping what your speakers are saying and asking follow-up questions. I like how you are interested in the science. I will say I find it funny though that you understand the science so well but you still default to "bro" beliefs due to things that aren't measurable. Protein shakes after workout, casein before bed, bro splits. You make it clear that you understand the subject matter so well and then are just like "Well I enjoy protein shakes and they can't hurt so I'm gonna still take em" or "I understand high frequency is probably better but I just love the pump of a bro split." Find it funny that's all. Keep doing you and great content!
+wrxdrunkie thanks! I appreciate the feedback. And LOL I'm pleased to hear you find my approach amusing.
You are awesome. Fantastic video! My take on it was that they all agree you should increase you're calories to new maintenance levels post show and then increase periodically the weeks after. The disagreement then is how fast or slow you should do that. What has been your experience with reverse dieting? If you've explained this already you can just point me to another video/post. Thanks Jeff!
this is awesome! Thank you Jeff Nippard for bringing such great content to youtube.
May I suggest a topic for debate like this?
There are so many powerlifting programs. Maybe you can get GZCL, greg nukcols, Layne and others and then have them debate on how to program for maximising strength gains.
+Shashidhar Patil get candito in there as well
+Alan Daher oh yes please. that would be great.
+Shashidhar Patil I've already had candito and Nuckols agree to come on! I'll do my best to make something happen!
+Jeff Nippard you just made my day!
Great video, thanks a lot for doing these.
Eric is such a great guy.
Awesome podcast per usual Jeff. A lot of great points presented, from all sides. Great job moderating and keeping people on task.
One lingering question though, what was the song played over the credits!?
Awesome Jeff, all of this really helps I've been in a calorie deficit far to long, going to apply this knowledge, think I've always been scared to gain to much fat
you should bring these back!!
Do you have podcast versions of your videos? Thanks! Super looking forward to listening to these!
Stitcher
Menno's knowledge is unreal.
Agreed! And he did all that while high on coca colas!
@@JeffNippard i think that helped him haha
Subbed, great compilation of people and ideas.
great video, I think it comes down to somewhere in the middle and everyone should agree don't cut so hard you feel the need to binge. If you have to binge you should re-think cutting/deficit/competing and seek help first get that together then go back to the drawing board
Jeff…been following you for a while. Old bodybuilder here ☺️🙌🏻. Competed and coaching myself (as an experiment) for stage inbf masters in sep.
I really love these older vids. You have done such an outstanding job with these panels. From peak week to this one…just awesome info!!! Thank you.
Maybe I missed this but if anyone knows the answer please let me know. They keep saying to go up to your new maintenance straight away, but how are you supposed to know your new maintenance without trial and error first
Tdee calculator
Layne refuses to argue actual science and resorts to talking about hypothetical specific clients because you can’t argue with him or pin him down on those specifics. He never addressed the baseline science involved because most of what he spews is not only unfounded but has actually been disproven.
Fantastic, thank you for this. Ideally though if the guests could have more difference in opinion rather than simple definition of terms the debate would be better.
im a huge fan of everyone in this video. That being said, I have found a lot of information from menno that is very different from what say layne norton would describe as performance dieting. I wouldve liked to see you have them engage more in their disagreements. Really curious to see their argument of why what theyre selling their clients is the best quality diet approach. Like i said theyre very different. For a debate this remained way too moderate. Obviously I dont want to see them get personal or angry. But i did want to see their different sides debated. I mean strength training philosphies are way different as well and menno has a controversial but seemingly very effective approach. I hope you consider getting them out of their comfort zone a little more next time and see how they hold up in their very different approaches. YOURE THE MAN JEFF THANKS!
Brilliant stuff!!! Thanks Jeff
One link doesn't work:
Episode 18 - Bro Splits, Training Frequency & the Anabolic Window feat. Menno Henselmans feat. Menno Henselmans
Great Video btw^^
+Gain with Science the link might have been fixed, it is working
Thanks so much for putting this together! Just an FYI the link for the 3DMJ recovery diet video doesn't work.
Thanks! It might not be published just yet - soon
Jason Genova is a prime example of how to properly reverse diet from a competition.
This was great!
this is actually sick!! 💪
Is Eric saying that it is not optimal to gain muscle on the way up to mAintenance? I thought when lean your body is primed to build? How do you know what your new mAintenance is after dieting? Wouldn't of be determined by reversing till weight starts to increases?
It's sounds like, to me, that since you can't build muscle below maintenance, only in surplus, there is no point wasting too much time trying to find your maintenance level? You're just prolonging your diet. So if I do a deficit of say 200kcals a day compared to 500kcals a day, I will just lose weight more slowly, I won't build or gain.
I am kinda confused about Menno's research. On one hand he has predictive models of caloric expenditure depending on body fat and lean muscle mass, on the other hand he seems to imply that some people can have metabolism vary from thousands of calories. What is going on here? Why wouldn't this adaptability in the metabolism destroy any predictive model?
+Magnus Sletten good question.
I think that the important difference is what is going on at the level of the brain. If you listen carefully he is correlating LBM to BMR, not TDEE.
So the difference is that some people have brains that tell them to move more, while others don't, and this accounts for the variation in TDEE from person to person. This is why NEAT is such a big player in this discussion. A lot of the differences come down to variance in activity (conscious and subconscious).
+Jeff Nippard
Thanks! I am having a hard time imagining moving around slightly more resulting in a 2000 calorie increase though.
Maybe there are other factors which we currently aren't aware off playing a role here. Is the adaptability of the metabolism maybe slightly exaggerated?
Thank you!
Why not bring Brofessor Lyle to the table, and end the discussion once for all ? ;)
He's coming on next! I will make sure to bring the unresolved issues up.
🔥🔥🔥🔥 thanks Jeff
impressive. thanks
LOL at Menno being coked during the interview. Good stuff though!
Can someone give me the cliff notes. I've watched it but became distracted and and I'm not sure which argument had the most backing. I'm currently reverse dieting, but never got into a extremely low contest BF% just your average Joe trying to lose fat and gain some muscle
Let's not forget some of these crazy outliers as even mentioned by Layne "being IFBB pro bikini" are in some cases taking peds... This will almost certainly account for some skewed results IMO.
I love erics quick "sacrifice to win" comment.. dead. lol
+Mr. Meacham *talked too fast. pizza comment killed me too. great great great talk.
Happiness: Hippy shit
-Dr. Layne Norton
Totally kidding. All 5 of them crushed it & I thoroughly enjoyed it!
This is an EPIC podcast.. its clash of titans. EPIC...
Awesome
yes!
Lool @ lyle shout outs
okay this is money!
RELATIONSHIP ARE WITH HUMAINS!!!!
5:54 Seen a 🐱
I feel that Layne was just cringing every single time Meno said "Metabolic Damage" #TeamNorton
Its insane to me how so called "Educated Experts" like Layne can hold conflicting ideas about human metabolism. He says its "All about calories", yet he KNOWS that human metabolism drops with drop in metabolism and rises with increase. Complete stupidity and unable to understand the human body.
I juste want to make people remember that this is for people who COMPETE so they will be at 6%~ BF (for men). Most of us juste want to be 10%~9% at maintenance.
Id be fine at 12%
this was awesome. 👏
So in a nutshell, in post show if you are trying to maintain your look, easing caloric gains will help that, but it may also slow recovery, whereas jumping back into high calories quickly may sacrifice aesthetic in favor of faster recovery.
So I would guess you'd have to be very pragmatic about where you are suffering most. Is it way harder to recover your look for shows after going for a fast recovery? Or the opposite, are you suffering too much slowing your recovery to preserve your aesthetic? I'd say finding the honest and healthy answer to that question is the key to determining what you choose to do next.
Thanks Jeff, this was brilliant!
This was AMAZING. Thank you for putting this out there Jeff. Hopefully people will finally realize that everyone is on the same page and put an end to many of the misconceptions about the definitions of "reverse dieting" and "maintenance" :)
+The Macro Experiment Thank you! Yes, those are my hopes!
Does Layne realize that he is not the center of the universe?
apparently not. i honestly never liked him
+Ian Scott He used rats for his test. the fucking rat has many children more times than the fucking human bean. has no sense do stuff with the fucking rats. i don't know if layne is a fucking selfish or what ..
+TheTempleKnight Human bean's contain the most protein of legumes
+TheTempleKnight Why would the rat children care? It's not like cartoons where rats all know each other and ALL their children.
Helms and Menno spoke clearly, factually and coherently, very impressive. I feel like this exposed Layne to a degree; he's quick to be scientific when he's debating with lay people, but quick to be anecdotal when debating with equally/better informed peers. I felt the other guys were debating the subject while Layne defended his coaching. Great content Jeff, I love this channel.
Shaun Robinson eh. They all mentioned scientific and anecdotal evidence. U mention helms, but his arguments were just as anecdotal, if not, more than layne. Layne mentioned several studies. Menno just seemed to overshadow them all. He's very well spoken, and very clear with what his point or argument is, whether he was providing scientific literature or not.
Flex Luthor Layne always references anecdotal experience and rat studies. He finds the lowest level of evidence to support his view.
Shaun Robinson Do not mistake his coaching approach with scientific facts. They were discussing the second subject.
Flex Luthor well, he does have his last name on his wall, so...
Fitness science related studies are so flakey and rarely replicated it's ridiculous. Most studies are funded by supplement companies, and probably most published ones are also.
You can't circle back to the 'science' when it comes to nutrition or exercise physiology
Shortcut: There is no evidence (thx Menno, at least one who talks science among a round of supposed science-based coaches) that reverse dieting makes sense or is necessary. Layne still goes on and on how it can be good "psychologically, some clients of mine blablabla". The thing Layne just didnt understand is that you DONT add fat only when you immediately jump to your MAINTENANCE calories. Thats why the are called maintenance calories instead of "dirty bulking calories". And when you implement a surplus within two weeks as Menno explained, you simply start a new gaining period. Ofc with small fat gains (if you dont recomp) - but thats the name of the game when you go for adding LBM.
So just go to your NEW maintenance calories asap after a diet and then in your desired surplus (if you want to add muscles) - end of story. Faster @gaining muscle again, less strain with prolonging a diet (reverse dieting is nothing than prolonging a diet with a diminishing deficit), less complicated.
Well said
really underrated comment thanks a ton for the summary brother!
or sister...
This was the nail on the head , I needed this
"It was a real pleasure listening and talking to SOME of you guys"?? Who wasn't it a pleasure to listen to and talk to?
+boxerfencer LOL nice catch. One of those slip-of-the-tongue moments. Inb4 subconscious hatred for someone
@@JeffNippard 989888888888888i88i8889i8888888888898i8i
9
Great video and very informative! I just finished my first competition and I will be taking the Eric Helms approach
Menno's opening with the "being high on coke" thing was just golden
24:57 for those of you wondering haha
Lold at the "I was more interested in pizza than my naked wife" and the "how long does it take you to make breakfast?" comments. good stuff all around
Why all the hate on Layne? I don't get it. All of the speakers were respectable and knowledgeable. I enjoyed this debate very much and hope for more in the future! Thanks, Jeff!
I cannot thank you enough for putting this resource out there and bringing such great minds into one podcast. I feel that these "buzzword" terms in the industry are spoken once by educated people and then smaller minds take it completely out of context and it snow balls from there. It's great to hear the educated debate and to find out that things truly are CASE by CASE and that both sides in fact bring equal arguments and supporting evidence to the table.
I find slow reverse dieting better. After my first prep I went way overboard and I hated it. I find it much more appealing to do it slowly with as little fat regain as possible.
On top of that,most people don't want to compete,they just want to lose weight and keep it off. In that case there is no place for the rapid weight gain. This was a great debate though. :)
This was a really interesting debate! I watched Dr. Norton's series on metabolic damage and reverse dieting and so decided to do my own research. I found that a lot of what Dr. Norton has said was, in fact, true. There were several studies which pointed to an extreme down regulation of the metabolism in response to a caloric restriction. There was also a study I read which discussed de novo lipogenesis...a definite argument FOR adding calories, particularly in the form of carbohydrate, slowly and methodically.
It would seem to me that in order to help end the debate on whether reverse dieting is truly effective (outside of anecdotal "evidence") is to get the studies on humans into the works! With so many people entering the sport of bodybuilding, there is definitely a huge pool of participants to pull from.
Elizabeth Anastaspoulos The studies have been done. Reverse dieting is worse than just increasing calories and getting back to a healthy body fat and back to training ASAP.
All around great discussion. Layne has some frustrating tendencies in his debate skills; i.e. "well this one e-mail from this one random client you have no way of knowing gave me these stats that you're gonna have to trust are real" being the backbone of his argument.
That said, he did provide some valid points, but I think we can all agree that in the end, he had to admit at least some inaccuracy in his preaching of reverse dieting. Is it going to be a mental hit to a physique competitor to get them right back to being fat after weeks and weeks of intense dieting? Of course. But is it going to be more devastating and present adverse effects further down the line to keep said competitor in this state of intense dieting even after a show? Obviously. I think Eric's approach from the get-go was the clear answer to all of this: Get them back up out of a caloric deficit (unless they put on fat like it's no one's business), WHILE keeping them on the lower end of the settling point and THEN make gradual adjustments.
Great debate, Layne is a smug tool, but I believe he can change his outlooks and become a better coach
This was really great content jeff! was so interesting to hear these guys share their thoughts, menno's in particular. learned a lot. thanks man :) hope you make more of this type of content
Great videos Jeff...nice to see you get so many of my favorite experts in the game together for these videos...keep it up!!
Anyone know where we can find episodes 1-17?
Great debate. Thanks for doing this. Helped me validate that there was nothing wrong with how I navigated my first five months post show, contrary to what I was previously lead to believe.
Took me long enough to find this gem.
It is so simple.. An increased metabolism simply means that your activity level is increasing.. It's not Magic
budget my macros like my bank account
I'm a fan of the debate style video. I hope to see more similar to this.
This was absolutely phenomenal, thank you!
Absolutely loved this, so much knowledge in one conversation !
what about a debate about ultra low carb with menno, maybe jon keifer and cyclical keto. i feel theres a lot of confrontation to be had there and i would like to see both sides arguments at once
You can talk about counting calories and carbohydrates as much as necessary, but what to do if a person does not assimilate most of the calories from carbohydrates because of celiac disease?
This was very enjoyable. Thank you! I appreciate everyone's input here. Wish I could have participated lol
I cut to 10% bodyfat then slowly increased calories (100 per week) until I was gaining half a pound a week. I got considerably leaner and gained weight. Basically I gained more lean mass (glycogen, water and some muscle) than fat.
Awesome podcast buddy!
Hoping to see more of them in this particular squad.
Excellent video. Thank you!
I don't have 90 minutes to watch it, can anybody tell me what's the conclusion? Is it worth to reverse dieting?
Couple of TL;DL abstracts in the comments.
aBOOT?!?! Did I hear an aboot? Canadian! Canadian!
i have a feeling my body set point is pretty high.. when i am dieting not 2 contest shape but pretty lean. i will have 2 take calories to 1800/1900. with a bodyweight of 73kg and a height of 186cm with a big ass stomach.
RELATIONSHIP ARE WITH HUMAINS!!!!
my body resists the fuck out of change,, if im under 140lbs regardless body composition or excercise i feel like im dying.. over 160 and i dont even wana see food, been that way since i was an adult, lean bulking is a bitch for me, but on the same token getting ripped is currently feeling impossible after not having lifted
The broken plantation chronically succeed because collar unquestionably x-ray midst a white airport. accessible, unruly ladybug
these two can't go in the senence "pro" and "natural". Anyways unless you are pro, you better be fucking natural!!
The somber foot physically glue because tip uncommonly disarm anenst a fanatical shoemaker. violent, safe elephant
Title needs to include "Post Show Competitors" I am 95kgs about 22%BF and had been in a deficit of around 200-400 to where I was only consuming 1650kcals. I started a reverse because I wanted to try and quicken my metabolism so my next fat loss could be on more calories.
Loved it. Keep the good work up Jeff !!!
"Even when you're perfect, you're not perfect." 👌
i'm watching this for my third time , its one of the best till date 😍😍😍😍