Allowing agency is not entrapment. Agency is required for a just judgement but we aren't compelled or "setup" by God to fail. But He certainly did know we would fail so he provided mercy through His Son. 2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken-yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life- 3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit- 4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. 5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. 6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die-therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth-and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man. 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. 8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness. 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state. 11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord. 12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience; 13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. 14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence. 15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also. 16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul. 17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? 18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 19 Now, if there was no law given-if a man murdered he should die-would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin. 21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature? 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. 24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. 26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery. 27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds. 28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
Sorry, my title is a bit misleading. In this talk, I do not discuss the narrative of the fall addressing the standard interpretation presented by Augustine and used by Christians. If I did, then the idea of God using entrapment as a ploy against Adam would become obvious. I will look at the quote you gave and give my assessment of it. Then, I would appreciate you to criticize that assessment.
@@UVJ_Scott Thanks for your reply Scott. I will spend some time considering the quote. I am sure it has some theology I know and can comment on. You might know the Book of Mormon has no archeology to verify its legitimacy. It is written from a dictation by Joseph Smith, and it is impossible to verify that it is not a work of fiction. From my study of the history of religion and philosophy, I learned that the Church of Latter-Day Saints is related to the Gnostic belief system. But that does not mean that I will dismiss you. In truth, I have found that variants of Gnosticism are in many world religions, and it has also infiltrated many groups that consider themselves to be Christian. I have found that Augustine of Hippo, though he debated against many heresies, was thoroughly indoctrinated into Manicheanism, a mix of Zoroastrian, Gnostic, and Christian beliefs. Because of this, he did not have the spiritual or mental clarity to recognize his indoctrination. Besides this, the historical culture which gives a clear interpretation of scripture was foreign to Augustine and the Christian Church at the time. People like Augustine tended to ignore the disciples of the Apostles' writings.
This dictation by Joseph Smith does not state anything that likely would displease or offend a Christian . The only thing that I noticed is he presents an understanding of law in the Bible that is not in line with the Torah but does conform to the typical Christian understanding. The law in the Torah is not for sentencing punishment to people who break rules. The Law in the Torah is to guide behavior and restore broken relationships caused by trespassing against others. But just following the works of the law does not renew broken relationships. Only the blood covenant made with Christ saves and restores.
Respectfully brother you’ll never have the correct theology without Orthodoxy. The Filioque (1054) of the Roman Catholic Church and the 5 Solas of the Protestant reformation (1517). They break down when it comes to theology about sin. This is why RC could damn babies, and have something like predestination where you’re by law made to sin. Free will is completely taken out of the equation. Sin is merely an absence of God. We choose to sin, the passions induce our flesh against the spirit. Sin is a disease, not a state. That’s why people can fall off the wagon and slide deeply into sin. To where it becomes a root in their heart and part of their nature. If they choose to indulge the pleasures.
Thank you for your comment. I know these dogmas. The Filioque concerns the nature of the Trinity and who comes from whom. I disagree with their conclusion. The Bible does not state who existed first. The Persons of the Trinity have different roles. The Father is the Power and Glory, the Spirit is the Wisdom, and Jesus the Christ is the Word of Creation made flesh to be our advocate. The Father sent the Son to us, and the Son sent the Spirit to us. The Father gives the Son authority. The Son created the universe, being the Word which establishes all things. They interact by doing different things, but that does not mean one existed before the other. But in attempting to state things not revealed by Scripture or by God, I believe these wise scholars on this issue declare themselves fools. That is my opinion. I am sure they would not like my assessment, but they are dead now, and only those alive who considered these people wise would be offended by my conclusions. As far as the Solas of the Protestant Reformation. I get a kick out of their declarations. They say Sola Scriptural, yet they mean that others must agree with their limited and, at times, insane interpretation of scripture. The critic of their presumptions is a heretic to question their authority. I could go into an in-depth critique of these dogmas, but my expertise is the Westminster Confession, which is based on Calvinism. Calvinism is based on Zoroastrian, Gnostic, and Christian religions derived from Augustine of Hippo's writings. The Westminster Confession is not a Christian document. It demonstrates the eisegesis method of study, which was prevalent at the time. This has continued to this day.
Allowing agency is not entrapment. Agency is required for a just judgement but we aren't compelled or "setup" by God to fail. But He certainly did know we would fail so he provided mercy through His Son.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken-yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life-
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit-
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die-therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth-and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given-if a man murdered he should die-would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
Interesting quote.
Who wrote it?
Sorry, my title is a bit misleading. In this talk, I do not discuss the narrative of the fall addressing the standard interpretation presented by Augustine and used by Christians.
If I did, then the idea of God using entrapment as a ploy against Adam would become obvious.
I will look at the quote you gave and give my assessment of it. Then, I would appreciate you to criticize that assessment.
@ The quote is a translation from an ancient religious record called the Book of Mormon. The man speaking, Alma lived 74 BC on the American continent.
@@UVJ_Scott Thanks for your reply Scott.
I will spend some time considering the quote. I am sure it has some theology I know and can comment on.
You might know the Book of Mormon has no archeology to verify its legitimacy.
It is written from a dictation by Joseph Smith, and it is impossible to verify that it is not a work of fiction.
From my study of the history of religion and philosophy, I learned that the Church of Latter-Day Saints is related to the Gnostic belief system.
But that does not mean that I will dismiss you.
In truth, I have found that variants of Gnosticism are in many world religions, and it has also infiltrated many groups that consider themselves to be Christian.
I have found that Augustine of Hippo, though he debated against many heresies, was thoroughly indoctrinated into Manicheanism, a mix of Zoroastrian, Gnostic, and Christian beliefs. Because of this, he did not have the spiritual or mental clarity to recognize his indoctrination. Besides this, the historical culture which gives a clear interpretation of scripture was foreign to Augustine and the Christian Church at the time.
People like Augustine tended to ignore the disciples of the Apostles' writings.
This dictation by Joseph Smith does not state anything that likely would displease or offend a Christian .
The only thing that I noticed is he presents an understanding of law in the Bible that is not in line with the Torah but does conform to the typical Christian understanding.
The law in the Torah is not for sentencing punishment to people who break rules.
The Law in the Torah is to guide behavior and restore broken relationships caused by trespassing against others.
But just following the works of the law does not renew broken relationships.
Only the blood covenant made with Christ saves and restores.
Respectfully brother you’ll never have the correct theology without Orthodoxy. The Filioque (1054) of the Roman Catholic Church and the 5 Solas of the Protestant reformation (1517). They break down when it comes to theology about sin. This is why RC could damn babies, and have something like predestination where you’re by law made to sin. Free will is completely taken out of the equation. Sin is merely an absence of God. We choose to sin, the passions induce our flesh against the spirit. Sin is a disease, not a state. That’s why people can fall off the wagon and slide deeply into sin. To where it becomes a root in their heart and part of their nature. If they choose to indulge the pleasures.
Thank you for your comment.
I know these dogmas. The Filioque concerns the nature of the Trinity and who comes from whom. I disagree with their conclusion. The Bible does not state who existed first. The Persons of the Trinity have different roles. The Father is the Power and Glory, the Spirit is the Wisdom, and Jesus the Christ is the Word of Creation made flesh to be our advocate.
The Father sent the Son to us, and the Son sent the Spirit to us. The Father gives the Son authority. The Son created the universe, being the Word which establishes all things. They interact by doing different things, but that does not mean one existed before the other. But in attempting to state things not revealed by Scripture or by God, I believe these wise scholars on this issue declare themselves fools.
That is my opinion. I am sure they would not like my assessment, but they are dead now, and only those alive who considered these people wise would be offended by my conclusions.
As far as the Solas of the Protestant Reformation. I get a kick out of their declarations. They say Sola Scriptural, yet they mean that others must agree with their limited and, at times, insane interpretation of scripture. The critic of their presumptions is a heretic to question their authority. I could go into an in-depth critique of these dogmas, but my expertise is the Westminster Confession, which is based on Calvinism.
Calvinism is based on Zoroastrian, Gnostic, and Christian religions derived from Augustine of Hippo's writings.
The Westminster Confession is not a Christian document. It demonstrates the eisegesis method of study, which was prevalent at the time. This has continued to this day.