Estonia - The fourth body on the bridge
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I'm looking into the claim that a fourth body was trapped on the port side bridge wing and removed by a diver during the diving investigations in december 1994.
Is that claim right?
Links to the Disengage repeort: web.archive.or...
The 3D-model of the ship: www.estonia.havkom.se
In the GGE report, chapter 27 , the "body" is mentioned again. The image with the text comes from chapter 34.6: web.archive.or...
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Man this is the thing of night mares pitch dark with unfamiliarity all around you and all of a sudden as you go through the ship you could come upon a dead person these divers are barve souls must have major PTSD though
Many states, and countries as well (might have to look up Estonia) have laws regarding human remains, as well as a great deal of respect/reverence held by ordinary humans for the loss of another- if a human body was indeed found, it would have been documented with great care by all agencies involved.
Just my opinion (not that it matters😂).
Thank you so much for all you do in researching this horrible tragedy!
Unless they don’t care about the remains because if they did they would raise her (they can and it was proposed but denied) unless they have something to hide on the ship
I'm just asking why weren't the bodies removed? families need closure & to bring there family member home.
The decision not to raise any bodies was based on the conclusion that all of the bodies could not be salaved. Some would be left behind. Therefore no bodies were raised. In order to take care of all of the bodies, they would have been forced to raise the wreck which was difficult and dangerous. It would have been a huge task, not impossible but dangerous to the people that would have worked with the cleaning of the ship.
Tror inte heller det är en kropp. Om man jämför med andra tillfällen de stöter på en kropp så är dom mer försiktiga/respektfulla eller vad man ska säga. Och mer öppna om vad de ser.
Exakt. Dom säger alltid till att dom har hittat en kropp och som jag skriver i videon så skulle den ha klippts bort om det hade varit en kropp. GGE har fel om kroppen, även Disengage fast dom skriver inte att det är en kropp utan bara verkar vara en.
Vad ska det vara om inte en kropp?
Isolering eller delar av ett armerat fönster osv.
bingo... plus att dykaren slulle ha nämnt att det handlade om en kropp
@@Estoniaveckaneller brandduk eller vad som helst egentligen
Upptäckt denna kanal nyss. Intressant och avkopplande att lyssna på. Tack för det!
I’m leaning to the interpretation of cadaver as well, in one frame it appears that individuated teeth as part of larger set are able to be discerned.
To me it is highly unlikely because of how the diver moves it. They never moved bodies unless they needed to. There is a case where the diver show the face of a vicitm to the camera so the doctor could determine in what state the body was. They would never have treated a body that disrespectul so the only logical conclusion is that it is not a body.
@@Estoniaveckan it’s possible given the state of decay (as well as possible mission/motive of individual diver) that he did not recognize the material he was moving (same goes along with the supervisor). There is a clear frame showing individual set of upper teeth as well as separate frames showing both upper and lower sets of teeth. I’m not debating the guidance given to the divers, I’m basing by conclusion upon the photographic evidence at hand.
The frame where you can see the individual upper teeth is undeniable.
I would say no. They continuously reported the state of the bodies. However one of the body on the bridge looked like it had been attacked by fish but it was still recognizible as a body.
You also have to take into account what the diver does before he is pulling something out. He removes glass from the window and stuff comes lose. That makes it more likely to be some sort of insulation or something from the walls.
@@nickf4333 yes, you can make out the teeth. Out of everything people should be paying attention to, are those set of teeth.
You can -if you choose to- and I don’t recommend it. Screenshot and enhance the diver pulling the “body” out. From my interpretation there’s a life jacket and a collar and tie with a dark coloured jacket..that should be in keeping with watch officers clothing. Disengage conducted professional analysis with a much closer examination than I’ve attempted. In this circumstance I’d say their assessment is correct.
I admire your dedication to myth busting around the tragedy. Your research will help disprove some of the wilder myths. I’m not in agreement here though.
Do you have any toughts about the diver not mention a body at all when he pulls something out? And what ever it is it is not visible when he first starts to pull the shatterd glass but becomes visible after a few pulls.
When it comes to bodies, in all the video material the divers always mention that they have found a body or bodies. Why would this be an exception?
No, at this stage, I don’t want to speculate beyond that it may have been a dive Supervisor’s instruction not to disclose in this instance. We’re not helped here by the gag order on Rockwater divers and/or the decision by multiple governments and agencies to retain classified documents. I’m assuming that’s relating to the decision to use a passenger ferry to transport military tech on previous voyages and effectively use passengers as human shields? -I appreciate it would be unrealistic to ask for FoI’s around this and expect a positive outcome. It’s too messy..
I wonder if you could tell me about the ships controls? Do you know if they are in a position that would show a “crash stop” manoeuvre had been attempted?
Neither Sweden, Finland or Estonia were at war at the time, why do you think that anyone would have come up with the idea of "human shields"? Do you think that the russians sank the ship because there may have been military electronics onboard?
The controls on the port side for the port side engine was set to full astern and the starboard side to 10-20 % forward. On the main control panel the port side lever was set to 50% astern and the starboard side to 50 %. This info comes from the JAIC report page 129, chapter 8.8. The conclusion in the investigation is that the speed was reduced and the ship turned to port (page 178).
@@Estoniaveckan It’s the social democrats fault
@@erikpetrieartwork8485 Meny people ignore the fact that the boat was built for this. The boat was built to withstand crazy weather and thick ice as the boat goes backand4th allyear round and acted little bit like an icebreaker. I was onboard Estonia when it was going inbetween Umeå and Vasa as "Wasa King", i still got the Timetable "brochure" from the trip.
The boat was serviced well under the "Wasaline Ownership" and if there was eny weakness it would be fixed. The ship was orginally ordered by an Norwegian shipping company and was built and intended to go inbetween Norway and Germany.
Everyone know deep down from day one, that nothing adds up. They tried to blackout the truth from day one.
Difficult to see what that was but surely they would have reported if it was a body. Okay this will probably forever be a mystery but I would really like to know why the Mayday was done so late and what happened to the Captain or where he was, clearly he never got a chance/or was not able to do the Mayday call. I wish they had took up the bodies before it was too late.
I have done a video about the mayday-call, you should check it out if you have not already
People are fallible and this fallible person was working in difficult underwater conditions with tons of debris and silt. He just didn't see that it was a person. Totally understandable in that situation with all the debris everywhere.
@@Hookah_Horns What exact time do you guys see a person? I’m really trying to see it and have rewatched this video about five times and still can’t seem to find it…
@@OneWayTheOnlyWay 3:16 to 3:24
It looks like it's just some type of insulation, like rockwool or something between the windows that gets pulled out when he pulls the 'chicken wire' glass out. If you look here 2:30 it also looks like it's lining the bottom of the window too in between the gap.
That is probably right, something like that
It is very strange, though, as even in the low resolution, you can pretty clearly see a decomposed but well preserved face with a wide open mouth. If this is an illusion, it is a very good one. Maybe the diver was so focused on removing the glass and fire isolation that he didn't pay attention. It is odd, however, that they didn't notice it when reviewing the footage after the dive if it is in fact a body. I read a comment on another video with the footage that the diver is startled and works fast to get rid of whatever he pulled down.
I have watched a fair amount of the footage from the Rockwater divings. To me it is obvious that it is not a body. Probably it is some kind of insolation. I base this conclusion on the hours I've been watching the footage from december 1994. Everytime the diver encounters a body he reports it. He also does that if he suspects that there is a body behind a door or something like that.
You cannot see any bodies in the footage that is available to the public, why would this be an execption? And why did the diver not report the body if there was one?
The simple answere is that it is no body.
@@Estoniaveckan Same here, and the simple answer here is to each their own. With all of the secrecy and smoke and mirrors evolving around the Estonia disaster, I wouldn't be surprised if we just stared a body right in the face. Without official statements confirming whether the clip shows a body or not, we can't know for sure, and because of all of the debris obstructing the diver's view as he removes the glass and insulation, there is also the possibility that the diver did not see what the camera caught and thus did not comment on it, leading to the dive leader also not reacting to it. Me being a hobbyist free diver, in waters like the Baltic Sea, the visibility is nil, and sometimes a camera can see more than the naked eye, which is already obstructed by our equipment. That you don't see a body is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but don't pull that high-horse baloney until you can actually confirm something. Your little channel here doesn't come close to qualifying you to be an expert on the matter. I wish you all the best!
The footage was monitored in real time as you know by at least one person. Probably more. As you know there were police officers onboard the diving platform and diving expert as an example.
Later the videos has been reviewed by several people. The footage was also cut to remove sequences where bodies were visible. My opinion is that it is highly unlikely that it is a body, that every one of these people missed it.
Perhaps my "little channel" here as you put it may not make me an diving expert, but all my research into this makes me an expert on the subject I would say. As you may have seen I have done a lot of reading, researching, watching footage, read diving logs etc etc.
Have a nice summer!
@@Estoniaveckannot true, in one video when the search cabins they find a body in the hallway outside the cabin, obviously it’s cut from the video, but then when the diver goes back out the cabin you can clearly see a foot of someone wearing a pair of jeans
@@Rom-ju5tf which video?
They found out that the first diver inspecting the bridge - Dave Mawston - before entering the port bridge wing through the lower aft window, which was already broken, cleared away the glass remains and mashwire and then pulled out a body by the hair to the outside where he let it go. This body was only approximately half a body because the lower half was missing, possibly due to having been attacked by fish or by being badly decomposed?
They would never treat a body with that amount of disrespect. They had clear instructions to handle the bodies with great respect. They found bodies during the survey and they handled them with care and also mapped them on a plan of the ship. Whatever it was that was being pulled out, it was not a body.
@@Estoniaveckan well what else should he have done ? He needed to go inside and the body was just in the window so he needed to put it out
@@lukaslipovsky340 even so, he would not have treated it like that. At most he would gently moved it aside or entered through another window or door.
I've seen that clip several times, and everytime when the diver pulls out the torso (or whatever it is) chills me out... Very strange that it is stated that there are no videos where the bodies are shown, but however there are still available those clips... Accidentally forgotten to cut or what?
There is no body. If it would have been, the footage would not have been available.
@@Estoniaveckan There is or there was a clip online where were cuddling bodies. Only leggs were shown. I don't know is it still available. I think it's let by accidentally to the public footage
It find that highly unlikely. This footage has been reviewed by a lot of people since 1994.
I see what you mean. Watched the video you linked to. I would still say that that is not a body part but I can understand why you think that.
@@Estoniaveckan yup. You can see what you wanna see. It is the magic of immagination 😅 But better thing if there is no material in public of those victims 🫣
For a piece of fabric or something like that it sure seemed to shoot to the surface like a decomposed body would, perhaps it was so wrapped up and undersized the diver didn't take it to be remains. Maybe it was a wrapped up life vest or other floatation device.
I have seen many clips where people claim you can see something and I haven't been able to distinguish anything, the picture quality is so poor
Yes it is. But it is likely some sort of insulation.
Looks like half body to me :/ opening mouth and empty eye sockets..
Also looks like you can see 2 nostrils.. pretty decomposed but that how it looks to me i might be wrong.. thou in whole video i watched you definitely can see human foot :( they missed that part so it wouldnt surprise me if they missed this one as well..
Do you think that the propotions match? Compare it to the size of the divers hand-
Head or foot? Foot is clearly visible also you can see pair of legs ( purple pants) next to foot..
And for head man im really postive it is :/ .. its definitely decomposed and just less then half of the body.
If i know how id take every single frame and enhaced it .
Im not surprised they could miss this since they missed couple other bodies and left them in video..
They did? Where in the other videos?
The divers who did these inspections said they found a lot of bodies and they would be able to get them of the sunken ship but the governments who had their part in this told them to leave the bodies in the boat. So the diver would probably not be scared of seeing a dead body if that’s what he saw and dragged out.
They knew there would be bodies but they were told to handle them with respect and they also marked where the bodies were. Thats why this is not a body. The diver would never treat a body like that.
From what I've read human remains quickly disappear from the sea because they are rapidly consumed by all the animals, whether microrganisms, fish or any other sea animals. For a body to last more than a few weeks in the sea is virtually impossible. Only a skeleton could remain but even that can be decomposed by the acidity and pressure of the water, among other aspects.
This video was recorded in December, more than two months after the sinking, which occured at 28th of September. By this time most likely the only human remains of the trapped victims on the ship would be skeletons. Some 130+ body remains were recovered from the wreck so possibly some remains existed but I'm not aware of any public footage of them, which makes sense considering the authorities were obliged to respect the victim's and their families' rights to privacy. Ultimately the ship wreck was declared a deep sea cementery so all the remainders are protected from what is considered profanation.
In short, there will never be any footage of bodies floating around while divers investigated the wreckage. I hope all of the victims suffered the minimum possible and that they and their families were able to find some kind of peace.
Your assertion contradicts the Rockwater Diver's statements in his interview in Henrik Evertson's Estonia documentary. He says the bodies were "in good condition, some even still had lipstick on". So I doubt the video here shows a body that decomposed. Its probably insulation of some sort, rockwool or something that looks strange under water.
@@EricBlair-jg2ux yes you’re right. I did read about that later after I posted this. That the boat was still filled with bodies in some condition, some piled up. The authorities simply cut the graphic parts out.
Why was his breathing faster? He looked scared.
Who looked scared and when?
@@Estoniaveckan Who? Is there anybody else than the diver who is breathing that you are asking so stupidly? 😏 His breathing is faster after when he pulled it out.
Why do you have to be rude? I made a mistake. Could the faster breathing be caused by smashing and pulling away the window?
@@Estoniaveckan sorry ;)
Scarier then any horror movie you could ever watch,RIP
I hate being that person but if you stare above the mesh as he's hitting it, you can clearly make out that it's a head and when he goes to pull, he's pulling at the mouth and the whole thing stretches out. Had he taken the time to examine instead of just smash through shit, he'd be able to see what he pulled. That's more than just fabric. Plus, the debri acts like decayed sediment. AKA a body.
I would say no based on everything that I say in the video. The diver would never handle a body like this. And if it would have been a body it would have been marked on a drawing which it is not. As you can tell from the video no one is reacting to what he is doing so that support the conclusion that it is not a body.
@Estoniaveckan stare harder at the video. Before he pulls on the head, you can see it floating perfectly at nose level inside the mesh all intact(for the most part). You can see the open mouth, jaw line and everything before he goes to pull. The only reason I made it out was because I watched it over and over a few times to make sure i was seeing what i was seeing. He was recklessly knocking and pulling at that mesh and knocking debri around. When he goes to pull, the only thing "intact" is the skull itself because the fleshy parts around it including the eyes(which you can see after he pulls) all stretch out like goo and hold together because when flesh hits a certain point of decay when it's still attached to bone but wanting to fall apart, it'll act like this. It's goo flesh and bones.
@@EstoniaveckanI swear, please watch it over until you see it. You can make out the teeth when he's knocking on stuff from the lower jaw being detached more than it already was. I had to rewatch the video again just now to verify what I saw was more than just "debri" that is in fact, unfortunately, human remains that the diver didn't recognize immediately because he was worried about removing the mesh entirely for some reason instead of inspecting the inside of the hole thoroughly
GGE also said it "appeared to be a victim."
Interesting research.
Could a factor be that the playback technology was more low-res back then? More simple video screens and digital coding than today?
Perhaps, but the biggest issue here is that GGE seems to have twisted the conclusions from Disengage.
Likely not. A lot of circumastences points against it.
@@Estoniaveckanyou make the best videos about the horrible ms estonia tragedy. Hello from 🇪🇪, by the way have you personally seen the uncut footage with the bodies visible? Is it even possible for ordinary people to see it. My best guess is obviously No. if so then who is able to see them?? Only the goverment?
@@Estoniaveckani remember you uploaded the deck 5,6 dives done by rockwater some time ago, and in the description you wrote that youve made some edits to the video and no bodies are visible,. So thats why i wonder have you seen the uncut foootage and can i somehow see them too?
I have not seen the uncut videos. They are not public.
Is that Alvin from Alvin and the Chipmunks diving on that wreck?!. That's not a piece of fabric, its a body.
The voices are affected by the helium oxygen mix. It is not a body, is is some kind of material. The divers would never have treated a body like that.
I honestly don't know how anyone could see this and say it's not a corpse's face. It's obvious.
For me it is quite the opposite. You need to know the context also. That makes it highly unlikely that it is a body.
@@Estoniaveckan What about the context makes it unlikely?
When they search the wreck, the divers report the number of bodies and their location always. They report bodies even if they don't can see it but feel it. The purpose of the investigation was to establish where they bodies were and how many could have been salvaged.
The videos has been edited so it not shows any bodies. A lot of people have seen them. To me it is highly unlikely that everyone missed this. And why did the diver not report the body, if there would have been one? There is no reason for that.
@@EstoniaveckanWho has seen the videos with bodies?
The swedish police, the dive leaders, the investigators from Sweden, Estonia and Finland, editors that made copys and probably people working in The national swedish archives. Some journalists here in Sweden in 1995. So there is a lot of people as you see.
Är det på bryggan de dyker i denna video riktigt intressant video om Estonia visst dök de bryggan också 94?
Videon är från december 1994 när Rockwater dök på vraket.
It was in one of the reports, the body was actually just half a body, torso and head, in a bad state of decomposition, the diver pulls the remains. By the hair and lets the body float away,
There is also another video when they are searching cabins and right at the end of the video you can see a foot of a person wearing jeans
Which report and video are you refeering to?
You can clearly see a head and torso when playing on slowmow and pausing
3:12 you can see 2 nipples, must be a woman torso.
3:23 the diver is pushing the torso by its shoulder. You can also see some blond hair
Here are the references you're asking for
@@lilyfromjetpolice what is a woman
@Optic_fartbox as you said, we can cleary see a torso. It's not a woman's body, its a woman's head and torso, without legs. If you pause, you can see the breats and after you can see some blondie short hair in the head.
If this is a body part, it would most likely be a head, to me it looks like like some sort of insulation.
Since the dive was made barely a month after the sinking of MS Estonia and that the fact that it's deep under the water, i would've expected there to be no bodies, since dead bodies float a good while after they die.
But that's just my theory of course
I don't mean to wake any drama, I also suffered greatly from this because of my mother and and her friends have "corrolations" to the disaster.
But i hope people will get better coverage of this, it's just odd that you'd close of an area that is only 80 meters underwater because of "traumatic reasons", if anything you'd solve the "traumatic reasons" by doing a full investigation..
Most likely it is some part of some insulation. It is very very unlikely to be a body because it is clearly visible in the video. There are at least one part where you probably can see a part of a vicitm on deck 6, but in this case it is out of the question that it is a vicitm.
@@Estoniaveckan yeah it def looks like insulation the way it kind of falls apart
Var det noen på bildekket når skipet sank eller ble de evakuert før skipet sank?
Inga passagerare fick befinna sig på bildäcket under resan men enligt vittnesmål så fanns det förmodligen en person som sov i en bil.
@@Estoniaveckan Takk for svaret, det er lite sannsynlig at han overlevde om han ikke våknet fort etter det første smellet.
Personen på bildäcket överlevde inte .
@@Estoniaveckan veldig synd, vet du hvor jeg kan finne mer informasjon om den personen?
Nej, tyvärr inte. Han nämns i förhör bara.
Kaptenen skulle saktat ner farten på båten Estonia som hade katastrofen inte hänt överhuvudtaget och alla hade klarat sej.
But it's body.. you can see she's head and diver after says at it's body
No it is not a body. When does he say it is a body?
@Estoniaveckan If I'm not mistaken, he said this later somewhere in an interview or something like that. you can see her head if she looks closely, her mouth is wide open and it is located below and her eyes, hair, etc. are on top .. then you can clearly see her thin face
@@KillerKlownsfan okey, can you look it up and return to me with a link or reference to an interview?
Good video. This is a long living myth online.
those who dive inside the ship, well, I don't know what kind of nerves you must have, I won't even go in there for a million euros
I don't even know what I'm supposed to be looking at.
3:18 a face with open mouth and teeth showing
@@suzyinstitches273 stop seeing things lol, as soon as the diver touched the "body" he would have noticed human remains and reported it
Rip
Det ser ut som att han drar ut brandisolering
Det är mycket möjligt att det är det. Det ser inte ut att finnas där när han börjar dra utan kommer fram när han har dragit ett tag.
@Paul Knight
Isolering låter som en rimlig förklaring 👍
Kan det vara samma slags material man ser mellan ytter- och innerväg framför dykarens fötter vid 2:32?
Why is Mickey Mouse diving?
The voices are distorted because they are breathing a mix between oxygen and helium
@@Estoniaveckan Fascinating
Youve got to be so incredibly brave to dive into deep ocean water knowing there will be dead bodies. Some people are just built different i swear
Yes, that must have been hard. In some of the footage you can actually hear how one of the divers gets surprised or scared of one of the victims in a corridor.
Do you think there are bones still inside the wreck in 2023?
There are, yes.
@@Estoniaveckanwouldn't they be completely decomposed by now?
Not the bones. During last summer remains could be seen.
@@ericboom1712 Bones last for a very long time
i see@@Estoniaveckan
You can see a dead hand.